WEBVTT - #135 Jason Flom with Lamonte McIntyre 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.760 We originally released our interview with Lamont McIntyre on September 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:07.320 twenty fifth, twenty seventeen, but with all that has changed 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:09.879 in this case and the world around us, we thought 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.680 it a good time to release an updated version of 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:19.000 this episode. On the afternoon of April fifteenth, nineteen ninety four, 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.480 Donielle Quinn and Donald Ewing sat in a powder blue 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.600 Cadillac when a man dressed in black pumped four shotgun 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:29.240 rounds into the car, killing the two men. Within six 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:33.040 hours of the crime, Kansas City, Kansas Police detective Roger 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:37.559 Glubski began the process of framing Lamont McIntyre, who was 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:41.559 seventeen at the time, for two counts of first degree murder. 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:46.279 Why did he do this because Lamont's mother had refused 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:52.480 Glubski's repeated sexual advances. But without any physical evidence whatsoever 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.880 to link Lamont to the crime, Kolubski in the state, 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:00.640 would rely on mistaken eyewitness identification to seal them's fate. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.680 And to make matters even worse, Lamont was represented at 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.040 trial by a public defender who would later be disbarred 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.920 for failing to diligently handle three other cases. All of 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:16.160 this resulted in his wrongful conviction at being sentenced to 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:20.919 two consecutive life prison terms. On this episode, I'll speak 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.759 with Kansas City attorney Cheryl Pilot, who worked to exonerate 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:29.560 Lamont McIntyre and was successful shortly after this story was released. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.920 She's joined by former FBI agent Al Jenerich, who spent 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:38.200 much of his career investigating police corruption all over the country. 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.880 And finally we spoke with Lamont while he was still 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.720 behind bars, a victim of the systemic racism and police 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:50.880 corruption that plagues our criminal legal system. This is Wrongful 0:01:50.880 --> 0:02:06.480 Conviction with Jason Flaub. Welcome back to Ronful Conviction with 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:11.520 Jason Flumm. Today's episode will make your blood boil and 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.600 it will blow your mind. So settle in because this 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:17.080 is going to be a crazy ride. 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:21.120 Guilty one word ceiling Lamont McIntyre's fate. 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.560 Lamont McIntyre, aged seventeen in nineteen ninety four, has so 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.880 far been imprisoned for twenty two years. Twenty two years ago, 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.920 two young men, twenty one year old Donielle Quinn and 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.760 his thirty four year old cousin Donald Ewing, were gunned 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.040 down in a horrible double homicide. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.920 Six hours after the murder's police arrested McIntyre but never 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:41.760 searched his house for evidence. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.359 Moreover, it was a trial which prosecutors offered no physical 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:49.040 evidence tying McIntyre to the crime, no motive, no connection 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.799 between him and the victims, no weapon, no fingerprints, nor 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.400 did Kansas City, Kansas believe even request search warrants to 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:57.799 find any of that material. 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.279 A retired officer who reviewed the case caused the investigation 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:02.680 grossly deficient. 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.160 Most notable is that the family of the victims for 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:10.600 twenty two years have steadfastly insisted that he is innocent. 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.000 Other witnesses, also relatives of the victim, insisted as soon 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.760 as they saw McIntyre sitting at the defense table, they 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.440 knew he was not the shooter. They told the prosecutor, 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.200 but were ignored. One family member has signed an affi 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.239 David claiming that under pressure from police and the prosecutor, 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:26.959 she lied at McIntyre's trial. 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.160 For the first time, a jury is speaking publicly about 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.200 the case, Greg Lauber says that he now believes that 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:35.520 yan Dot County jury was wrong. 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:37.120 They didn't care about anything. 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:38.200 They just had their. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.840 Man and it was enough for the twelve person jury 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.760 in deliberations, Lauber says he and another juror were holdouts, 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.320 but it was late in the day and there was 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.040 mounting pressure from others who wanted a verdict. 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.160 Maybe I had an opportunity to, you know, do something 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.800 good on that jury, but I sure didn't do it. 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:56.920 I took a coward's way out. 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.400 It is the speedy investigation and prosecution of that crime 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.360 in this place that a team of exonerators now insist 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:07.560 was also the focus of a terrible injustice. Lamont McIntyre, 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.280 aged seventeen in nineteen ninety four, has so far been 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:14.080 imprisoned for twenty two years, convicted, and given two consecutive 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.680 life sentences for a crime they say he never committed. 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:20.680 Well, I'm just going to say I'm really happy that 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:25.920 today joining us to discuss the insane case of Lamont McIntyre, 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.920 we have with us Lamont's attorney, Cheryl Pilot, as well 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:36.360 as retired FBI special agent Al Jenerich. Cheryl and Al, 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:37.560 thank you for being here. 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:39.680 Thank you so much. We're glad to be here, happy 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:39.919 to be. 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:42.680 Here, and we will be hearing later on in the 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.760 episode from Lamont, who will be calling in from president Kansas, 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:51.120 where he has been incarcerated for approximately twenty four years 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.520 now since he was a teenager for a crime that 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.440 he did not commit. Now, let's go back to the beginning. 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.400 On April fifteenth, nineteen ninety four, there were two men 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:05.040 sitting in a Cadillac in Kansas City, Kansas, when they 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.479 were approached by a man with a shotgun. These facts 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.080 are not in dispute right correct, And what we know 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.359 is that four shots were fired into the car, killing 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:18.679 the passenger, Donielle Quinn instantly and the driver, Donald Ewing, 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:23.080 who died later in the hospital. And amazingly, within six hours, 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:24.960 they managed to find a guy who had nothing to 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:28.280 do with the crime, Lamont McIntyre, who was seventeen at 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:32.039 the time, and he was arrested and charged with two 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:36.279 counts of first degree murder in spite of a total 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.719 lack of any physical evidence connecting him to the crime. 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.880 How did this happen? Cheryl and al jump in whenever 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:44.359 you want. 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:51.880 Lamont was arrested and prosecuted after police obtained three interviews 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:56.679 from eyewitnesses, one of them never testified, but the taped 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.919 interviews of these eyewitnesses in a very serious crime obviously, 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.520 where someone can go to prison for the rest of 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:08.039 their life. Amounted to a total of twenty taped minutes, 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:13.000 and one of the eyewitnesses was only interviewed for four minutes. 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:15.039 Is that an investigation? 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:16.040 What is that? 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:18.880 So? Al? You've done a lot of research and you 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.680 were in the FBI for quite a while, Is that right? 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.680 I was in the FBI for twenty five years. I 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:29.279 was a special agent. I specialized in investigating police corruption. 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:35.240 I worked in Chicago very successfully, and then in Kansas City, Kansas. 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:39.040 Agent Generich was not involved with this murder case at 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:44.160 all when it happened. I knew mister Generich through other cases, 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.080 and after he retired a number of years after he retired, 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:53.120 actually and I was working on trying to achieve Lamont's exoneration, 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.920 I approached him to talk to him about the Kansas City, 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.440 Kansas Police Department and things that I had a covered 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:04.480 in my investigation. And it was at that point that 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.320 Alan and I started talking about some of the things 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:12.920 he had learned while working for the FBI, and they 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:16.600 matched up with some of the things I had uncovered 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.240 in my investigation. And it was because of that that 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.320 he became a witness in this case that I hope 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:24.760 to use at our hearing. 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:31.280 So prior to Lamont's arrest, can we talk about what 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:36.520 was happening with this particular cop, whose name was Roger Glubski. 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.080 Sometime around nineteen eighty eight or so, I was able 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.320 to open an investigation into police corruption in Kansas City, Kansas. 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.880 And as the investigation went on over time, over many years, 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:53.880 we developed maybe somewhere between twelve and fifteen police officers 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:58.120 who were titled subjects of the investigation. Some of it 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.680 involved civil rights like beating people up, stealing their shoes 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.160 when they were walking down the street because the officer 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.080 liked the shoes, or in the case of Kaulupski, you know, 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:12.320 sexual extortion. But most of it involved corruption involving drugs, 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:13.280 mostly cocaine. 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:14.280 And in the. 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.640 Course of this investigation, just by talking to people, which 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.680 is what I'm pretty good at, over time, you know, 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:25.640 a number of people told us about Gaulupski extorting sex 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.680 from black women, and he liked black women. We never 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:33.360 developed enough evidence on Gallupski to prosecute him. That's the 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.800 extent of my knowledge about Gaulupski. 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.440 I always believe that that police were good and the 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:41.840 police were on our side and they're there to protect 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.640 us all and so I always find these stories, even 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.480 as long as I've been working on this issue, and 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.880 I've got twenty five years now of experience, but I 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:56.200 always find these stories so just depressing and shocking, and 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:57.600 it flips everything upside down. 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.360 Well, like you, I was very nice eve until I 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.920 went to Chicago, and then I sought police corruption on 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.680 the massive scale. But then when I got back to 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.680 Kansas City in eighty six and probably got involved in 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.520 Kansas City, Kansas in eighty eight, I saw the same activity. 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.920 There wasn't on the grand scale. 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:18.720 You know. 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:23.600 It's that it's conducted in Chicago. It's basically police officers, 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.240 most of whom are white, picking on minorities, most of 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.480 whom are black, some of them are Hispanic. Because when 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:32.960 you're a drug dealer, you know, you can't go to 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.960 the police or the FBI and say, hey, these cops 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.640 are stealing my drugs, these cops are stealing my drug money. 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.040 You basically have to you have to suck it up. 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.400 So that's what they do in Chicago, That's what they 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:45.040 do everywhere. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:52.760 So Lamont his troubles really began when his mom was 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.120 at a car with I guess was her boyfriend at 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.520 the time, showl right. Glubski approached the car and told 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.840 her to get out and threatened her with the rest 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.600 or the rest of her boyfriend unless she agreed to 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.160 come down to the police station. And then the problems 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:14.040 really began when she refused to become one of his girls, 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.520 so to speak, right, I mean, obviously, she was in 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:22.840 a terrible situation where she's very vulnerable, not able to 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.360 defend herself from a cop who's willing to go to 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.000 almost any length to fulfill his desires. She had a 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:34.200 tremendous problem, and she decided that she wanted to maintain 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.800 her dignity, really right, And so what seems like happened 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:41.240 is that as a consequence, Golubski decided that he would 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:46.240 target and frame her son in something that is so 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.199 evil that makes me want to quit the human race. 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:54.360 There was an encounter that Lamon's mother had with the 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:58.160 detective some years earlier. I mean it was years actually 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:02.640 before the double homicide happened. And at the time of 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:07.920 the double homicide, my client was inexplicably dragged into the case. 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.560 One of the eyewitnesses told the police she thought the 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.480 shooter looked like a Lamont dating her niece. Police never 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.320 bothered to find out what Lamont that was. They don't 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.920 go ask the niece what Lamont that was. They simply 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:26.160 put another Lamont and it's undisputed, an entirely different Lamont 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:32.960 my client into the case, and somehow obtain this identification. 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:36.920 What's interesting about the lineup, and I've never seen anything 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.920 like this before, is three of the five photos were 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:44.360 of young male members of the McIntyre family. 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.960 You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to say, well, 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.360 that doesn't make a lot of sense. It's one perpetrator. 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.440 It's not like somebody said there were three brothers that 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.320 were involved. It's one perpetrator, you know. And then the 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:03.520 justice system, we know, has a tendency to chew people 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.280 up and spit them out when they are poor, particularly 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:12.080 if they're minorities and underrepresented. It's really it's not a 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:13.480 fair fight, is it. 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:18.360 Well, I mean, this whole thing was an impossible battle 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.000 for Lamont to begin with. I mean, first of all, 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:27.520 the investigation itself, I don't think really qualified is a 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.240 true investigation because so little was done, no evidence of 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.120 motive was ever uncovered. There was no physical evidence that 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.640 tied Lamont to the crime. There was not even any 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.319 evidence that he knew the two victims. There are backgrounds 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.559 of the two victims and who might have a motive 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:48.440 to harm them that was never investigated. There was an 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:53.000 eyewitness directly across the street who was never interviewed, whose 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.960 mother said, you know, she knows who the suspect is. 0:12:56.480 --> 0:13:01.280 I mean, the failures and lapses and regularities in this 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.480 case just go on and on. I mean, other than 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.480 the twenty minutes of taped interviews from the eyewitnesses, there 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.000 was very little else and the only evidence at trial 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:18.000 against Lamont were two eyewitnesses. One of them has admitted 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.400 that she lied, that she was coursed. The other eyewitness 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.880 seems frankly, very perplexed by her testimony, and it's very 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:33.199 clear that it's an eyewitness a misidentification based on manipulation. 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.880 And we know also that had this trial taken place 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.160 twenty years later or so, with everything that's known now 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.439 about the unreliability of eyewitness identification, there's a very good 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.560 chance that would have been discredited. Because there was no 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:48.120 other evidence connecting him to the crime. 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:52.280 You take a person who's traumatized, who has just witnessed 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.520 a really horrific event, and they can be pretty easy 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:01.480 to pressure or manipulate. And in factness provided in a 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.440 tape statement my client's last name, a man she did 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.880 not know and had never heard of, which raises the 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.640 very interesting question of who gave her the name. It 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:14.840 was undisputed at trial that she did not know my client, 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.280 yet the fact that there was an original tape statement 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:22.160 where she provided his name never came out. That was 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:26.520 never admitted at trial. She also stated wrongly that my 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.520 client was the Lamont who had dated her niece. At 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.400 trial undisputed that that was not true. It was an 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.440 entirely different Lamont who was in fact identified by his 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.320 name to the jury, an entirely different person. So, I mean, 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.640 the whole thing is troubling beginning to end, really a 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:51.920 perfect storm of chaos and horror and misconduct, things being 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:52.880 done improperly. 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:57.800 So you have this cop and this department that is 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.880 so corrupt isn't even the word, but that's engaged in 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:06.200 so many illegal activities, And isn't it ironic and tragic 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:11.720 that Lamont is in prison, living in hell after twenty 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:16.840 four years, and this cop who was, from what I've read, 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:23.800 raping people, robbing people, dealing drugs, protecting drug dealers, he's out. 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.360 How is that? I mean that must not sit well 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:28.200 with you with your whole background either. 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.760 What I'm really hoping for, what our entire team is 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.800 hoping for, and what we have sought for a long time, 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:40.960 is a very full investigation into the activities of this detective. 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.640 There needs to be an investigation by people who have 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:50.560 the power to follow all the leads, develop information, compel 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.800 the testimony of witnesses, and obtain other evidence. 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:56.920 Ah, let me turn it to you for a second, 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:01.720 because we have not had somebody with your background and 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:07.480 experience on the show before. And I would adventure to 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.920 say that you had a very very difficult and dangerous job, right, 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.680 I mean, investigating cops, particularly when you're investigating cops who've 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:18.640 got a lot to hide, makes you a very unpopular person, 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.880 I would think so, looking back on it, how did 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:29.440 this manage to go on for so long without somebody 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:34.000 coming along and saying, you know, besides you, hey, hey, 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:35.560 we're not going to tolerate this. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.880 They don't give a shit. At the time we were 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.720 doing these investigations, the police chief of Kansas City, Kansas, 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.040 a guy named Tom Daly. He had previously been indicted 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.640 by the Federal Strike Force for extorting money at a 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.040 whorehouses along the Kaw River in Kansas. He was doing 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.720 that allegedly when it was a captain. He was acquitted 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.280 because it was a real weak case, but after a 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:04.040 quit it for extortion, the city wound up eventually making 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.639 him the chief. Is that the actions, you know, over 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:11.359 responsible a city administration or a police department. So he 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:13.720 had the chief over here, Tom Dale, who had previously 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.560 been indicted by the Feds. He despised the federal government, 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.800 he hated the US Attorney's Office and the FBI. And 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:23.280 he's the chief. He was part of it. 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.240 So you have this guy Golubski who in that scenario 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:34.399 is operating basically with impunity, right because he knows his 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:40.800 chief doesn't give a shit, And with the chief having literally, 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.760 well for what it sounds like, gotten away with that 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.600 particular pattern of activity as well as I'm sure other 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.320 things that he was doing, the people underneath him are 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.800 probably thinking, hey, this is great. No one's going to 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.440 touch us, and they're right, and nobody did. So how 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.000 frustrating was that for you? 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:56.400 There? 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:00.639 You are really fighting an unwinnable war, right, They're trying 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.840 to protect the public from the police force with they 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.640 chief of police who not only doesn't give a fuck, 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.440 but doesn't want that he wants you. He probably wants 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:11.840 you the fuck out of his hair, so he could 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:13.639 just you know, run the streets how he wants to. 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.560 Right when I started working over there, you had a person, 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:18.960 you know, some guy I knewed know a lot of 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.760 people in the county jail, and they would say, he 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.560 so and so confronted me and stole my money, stole 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.560 my drugs. You go, what's the cops name? I don't 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:29.800 know his name, you know what's he looked like, Well, 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.840 you know he's some white guy. Well you go to 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.680 the police. The police did not have photographs of their 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:39.240 police officers, So if if a victim came in there 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.399 alleging that so and so officer robbed from me, extorted me, 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.719 they didn't even have photographs to show people so they 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.520 could identify who the police officer was. So good luck, 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.040 you know, through the US Attorney's office, through Julie Robinson, 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:58.000 who was a prosecutor at the time. We subpoenaed photographs 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:02.480 of every sworn officer in the Kansas City, Kansas Police Department, 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.000 and there was hell to pay for that. I was 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.960 almost removed from the investigation because of that. 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:13.000 I think one of the problems is that other law 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:17.120 enforcement officers don't want to investigate law enforcement, and as 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.320 a general rule, I think they find it distasteful, something 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:25.399 they would rather avoid, and there is a tendency to 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:29.640 minimize misconduct. I found that really pretty shocking, not. 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:31.399 In light of everything else we're talking about, but I 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.200 could see how you would, and it really gets easier 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:40.920 and easier to see how these wrongful convictions are so common. 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.920 I mean, here, we have an interesting situation, right, We're 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.240 talking to Al who's in there with his badge, working 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:51.240 for the Federal Bureau of Investigation and basically being told 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:55.960 go fuck himself. So what chance does a seventeen year 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:59.359 old black kid from the poorer side of town. What 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:04.359 chance do does he have against this blue wall, this 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.920 blue monster that was out to get him. He had 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:14.200 no chance. So now fast forward to twenty four years later, 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:19.760 the monsets in a prison studying reading by all accounts, 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.600 a model prisoner, somebody who maintains a positive outlook in 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:27.840 spite of this what can only be described as the 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:32.040 worst fate that can befall an individual, to be incarcerated 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:34.399 with something he didn't do for the rest of your life. 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:36.920 But now we have hope, right, I mean, he has 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.080 hope thanks to you and the years of work that 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:41.440 you've done in this case and al and other brave 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:44.760 people who have devoted their time and in some cases 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.800 probably even risk their own personal safety to try to 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.720 get justice in this case. What does it look like now? 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.320 What happens next? Tell us what's going on. 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:59.160 We have a evidentiary hearing coming up in October, and 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:04.600 we tend to present somewhere between forty and fifty witnesses 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:10.800 who provide very powerful testimony on various aspects of the case. 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.960 There was almost nothing really to support the conviction to 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.040 begin with, nothing other than the testimony of the two 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:22.680 eye witnesses, and I believe that has been thoroughly shredded 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:28.440 at this point through recantations and admissions and the result 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:33.159 of other investigation. And we are also focusing on the 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:37.000 very troubling misconduct in the case. It is intimately connected 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:43.159 to how the investigation was conducted, and we're going to 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.760 bring all that out and show how we believe this 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.840 went wrong, and we very much hope to be successful. 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:55.160 What's the data of the hearing October twelfth, October twelfth, 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:57.399 and is this in a federal court? 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.040 We are in Windock County District Court is a state court. 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:06.280 My client is litigating what's called a successive petition under 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:10.480 sixty fifteen oh seven, and you have essentially a procedural 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.080 barrier to get over before you can get back into court. 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:16.320 But we do have this evidentiary hearing schedule that we 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:19.640 are very very excited about. One of the most compelling 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:22.399 things about the case we haven't mentioned this yet, is 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.199 that the families of both victims have always known my 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:31.560 client is innocent and are very much squarely supporting the 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:34.600 quest to free him. They know that they did not 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.520 get justice, Their families did not get justice. 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:40.959 And that's Cheryl. In your experience, it's not a common thing, right. 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:44.199 I mean, most of the cases I've seen, even in 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.600 the face of what could be overwhelming evidence to the contrary, 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.520 the victim's family sometimes stick with you. What they've been 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.200 told all along, because they just can't They can't even 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:55.199 process the idea that they may have been lied to 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:56.880 and that the wrong person may have been serving time 0:22:56.920 --> 0:22:59.440 for the murder of their loved one. So in this case, 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:01.640 this is a very very unusual scenario, isn't. 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:06.040 It It is? And one of the eyewitnesses is related 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:11.560 to both of the victims, and she her family and 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.240 the family of the second victim to whom she's a 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:18.440 bit more distantly related, have always told me that they 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:22.399 have known from the beginning that the authorities got the 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:26.200 wrong man. They have always known this. They've made periodic 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:29.159 efforts to correct this, to address this, to try and 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:31.840 get some justice, all without success. 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:36.720 And if there wasn't already enough to chew on, this 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:40.720 is the part that really just sets me off, his 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:45.040 court pointed. Attorney Gary Long was on supervised probation at 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.399 the time of the trial for failing to diligently handle 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.080 three prior cases. He was suspended from the bar a 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:54.760 couple years later for failure to adequately hand or a 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.119 separate criminal case. And he was this bar in nineteen 0:23:57.160 --> 0:23:59.920 ninety eight. How is it even possible that, in all 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:04.720 life or death situation that you take somebody and you say, 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:06.920 you know what, we're going to give you a lawyer 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:11.440 who's already messed up three times. 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:13.840 Well, when I said nobody gives a shit, do you 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:17.199 understand what I mean? Do you know that that you 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:19.040 know that Tara Morehead Do you know she's now a 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:20.080 federal prosecutor. 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:23.840