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Speaker 1: We originally released our interview with Lamont McIntyre on September

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Speaker 1: twenty fifth, twenty seventeen, but with all that has changed

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Speaker 1: in this case and the world around us, we thought

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Speaker 1: it a good time to release an updated version of

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Speaker 1: this episode. On the afternoon of April fifteenth, nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 1: Donielle Quinn and Donald Ewing sat in a powder blue

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Speaker 1: Cadillac when a man dressed in black pumped four shotgun

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Speaker 1: rounds into the car, killing the two men. Within six

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Speaker 1: hours of the crime, Kansas City, Kansas Police detective Roger

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Speaker 1: Glubski began the process of framing Lamont McIntyre, who was

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Speaker 1: seventeen at the time, for two counts of first degree murder.

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Speaker 1: Why did he do this because Lamont's mother had refused

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Speaker 1: Glubski's repeated sexual advances. But without any physical evidence whatsoever

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Speaker 1: to link Lamont to the crime, Kolubski in the state,

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Speaker 1: would rely on mistaken eyewitness identification to seal them's fate.

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Speaker 1: And to make matters even worse, Lamont was represented at

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Speaker 1: trial by a public defender who would later be disbarred

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Speaker 1: for failing to diligently handle three other cases. All of

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Speaker 1: this resulted in his wrongful conviction at being sentenced to

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Speaker 1: two consecutive life prison terms. On this episode, I'll speak

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Speaker 1: with Kansas City attorney Cheryl Pilot, who worked to exonerate

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Speaker 1: Lamont McIntyre and was successful shortly after this story was released.

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Speaker 1: She's joined by former FBI agent Al Jenerich, who spent

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Speaker 1: much of his career investigating police corruption all over the country.

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Speaker 1: And finally we spoke with Lamont while he was still

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Speaker 1: behind bars, a victim of the systemic racism and police

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Speaker 1: corruption that plagues our criminal legal system. This is Wrongful

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Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flaub. Welcome back to Ronful Conviction with

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Speaker 1: Jason Flumm. Today's episode will make your blood boil and

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Speaker 1: it will blow your mind. So settle in because this

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Speaker 1: is going to be a crazy ride.

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Speaker 2: Guilty one word ceiling Lamont McIntyre's fate.

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Speaker 3: Lamont McIntyre, aged seventeen in nineteen ninety four, has so

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Speaker 3: far been imprisoned for twenty two years. Twenty two years ago,

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Speaker 3: two young men, twenty one year old Donielle Quinn and

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Speaker 3: his thirty four year old cousin Donald Ewing, were gunned

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Speaker 3: down in a horrible double homicide.

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Speaker 2: Six hours after the murder's police arrested McIntyre but never

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Speaker 2: searched his house for evidence.

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Speaker 3: Moreover, it was a trial which prosecutors offered no physical

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Speaker 3: evidence tying McIntyre to the crime, no motive, no connection

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Speaker 3: between him and the victims, no weapon, no fingerprints, nor

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Speaker 3: did Kansas City, Kansas believe even request search warrants to

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Speaker 3: find any of that material.

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Speaker 2: A retired officer who reviewed the case caused the investigation

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Speaker 2: grossly deficient.

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Speaker 3: Most notable is that the family of the victims for

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Speaker 3: twenty two years have steadfastly insisted that he is innocent.

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Speaker 3: Other witnesses, also relatives of the victim, insisted as soon

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Speaker 3: as they saw McIntyre sitting at the defense table, they

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Speaker 3: knew he was not the shooter. They told the prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: but were ignored. One family member has signed an affi

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Speaker 3: David claiming that under pressure from police and the prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: she lied at McIntyre's trial.

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Speaker 2: For the first time, a jury is speaking publicly about

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Speaker 2: the case, Greg Lauber says that he now believes that

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Speaker 2: yan Dot County jury was wrong.

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Speaker 4: They didn't care about anything.

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Speaker 5: They just had their.

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Speaker 2: Man and it was enough for the twelve person jury

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Speaker 2: in deliberations, Lauber says he and another juror were holdouts,

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Speaker 2: but it was late in the day and there was

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Speaker 2: mounting pressure from others who wanted a verdict.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I had an opportunity to, you know, do something

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Speaker 3: good on that jury, but I sure didn't do it.

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Speaker 5: I took a coward's way out.

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Speaker 3: It is the speedy investigation and prosecution of that crime

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Speaker 3: in this place that a team of exonerators now insist

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Speaker 3: was also the focus of a terrible injustice. Lamont McIntyre,

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Speaker 3: aged seventeen in nineteen ninety four, has so far been

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Speaker 3: imprisoned for twenty two years, convicted, and given two consecutive

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Speaker 3: life sentences for a crime they say he never committed.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm just going to say I'm really happy that

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Speaker 1: today joining us to discuss the insane case of Lamont McIntyre,

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Speaker 1: we have with us Lamont's attorney, Cheryl Pilot, as well

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Speaker 1: as retired FBI special agent Al Jenerich. Cheryl and Al,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being here.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much. We're glad to be here, happy

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Speaker 5: to be.

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Speaker 1: Here, and we will be hearing later on in the

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Speaker 1: episode from Lamont, who will be calling in from president Kansas,

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Speaker 1: where he has been incarcerated for approximately twenty four years

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Speaker 1: now since he was a teenager for a crime that

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Speaker 1: he did not commit. Now, let's go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 1: On April fifteenth, nineteen ninety four, there were two men

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Speaker 1: sitting in a Cadillac in Kansas City, Kansas, when they

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Speaker 1: were approached by a man with a shotgun. These facts

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Speaker 1: are not in dispute right correct, And what we know

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Speaker 1: is that four shots were fired into the car, killing

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Speaker 1: the passenger, Donielle Quinn instantly and the driver, Donald Ewing,

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Speaker 1: who died later in the hospital. And amazingly, within six hours,

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Speaker 1: they managed to find a guy who had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with the crime, Lamont McIntyre, who was seventeen at

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Speaker 1: the time, and he was arrested and charged with two

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Speaker 1: counts of first degree murder in spite of a total

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Speaker 1: lack of any physical evidence connecting him to the crime.

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Speaker 1: How did this happen? Cheryl and al jump in whenever

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Speaker 1: you want.

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Speaker 5: Lamont was arrested and prosecuted after police obtained three interviews

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Speaker 5: from eyewitnesses, one of them never testified, but the taped

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Speaker 5: interviews of these eyewitnesses in a very serious crime obviously,

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Speaker 5: where someone can go to prison for the rest of

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Speaker 5: their life. Amounted to a total of twenty taped minutes,

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Speaker 5: and one of the eyewitnesses was only interviewed for four minutes.

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Speaker 5: Is that an investigation?

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Speaker 4: What is that?

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Speaker 1: So? Al? You've done a lot of research and you

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Speaker 1: were in the FBI for quite a while, Is that right?

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Speaker 6: I was in the FBI for twenty five years. I

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Speaker 6: was a special agent. I specialized in investigating police corruption.

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Speaker 6: I worked in Chicago very successfully, and then in Kansas City, Kansas.

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Speaker 5: Agent Generich was not involved with this murder case at

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Speaker 5: all when it happened. I knew mister Generich through other cases,

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Speaker 5: and after he retired a number of years after he retired,

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Speaker 5: actually and I was working on trying to achieve Lamont's exoneration,

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Speaker 5: I approached him to talk to him about the Kansas City,

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Speaker 5: Kansas Police Department and things that I had a covered

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Speaker 5: in my investigation. And it was at that point that

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Speaker 5: Alan and I started talking about some of the things

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Speaker 5: he had learned while working for the FBI, and they

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Speaker 5: matched up with some of the things I had uncovered

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Speaker 5: in my investigation. And it was because of that that

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Speaker 5: he became a witness in this case that I hope

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Speaker 5: to use at our hearing.

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Speaker 1: So prior to Lamont's arrest, can we talk about what

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Speaker 1: was happening with this particular cop, whose name was Roger Glubski.

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Speaker 6: Sometime around nineteen eighty eight or so, I was able

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Speaker 6: to open an investigation into police corruption in Kansas City, Kansas.

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Speaker 6: And as the investigation went on over time, over many years,

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Speaker 6: we developed maybe somewhere between twelve and fifteen police officers

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Speaker 6: who were titled subjects of the investigation. Some of it

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Speaker 6: involved civil rights like beating people up, stealing their shoes

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Speaker 6: when they were walking down the street because the officer

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Speaker 6: liked the shoes, or in the case of Kaulupski, you know,

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Speaker 6: sexual extortion. But most of it involved corruption involving drugs,

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Speaker 6: mostly cocaine.

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Speaker 1: And in the.

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Speaker 6: Course of this investigation, just by talking to people, which

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Speaker 6: is what I'm pretty good at, over time, you know,

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Speaker 6: a number of people told us about Gaulupski extorting sex

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Speaker 6: from black women, and he liked black women. We never

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Speaker 6: developed enough evidence on Gallupski to prosecute him. That's the

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Speaker 6: extent of my knowledge about Gaulupski.

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Speaker 1: I always believe that that police were good and the

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Speaker 1: police were on our side and they're there to protect

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Speaker 1: us all and so I always find these stories, even

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Speaker 1: as long as I've been working on this issue, and

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Speaker 1: I've got twenty five years now of experience, but I

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Speaker 1: always find these stories so just depressing and shocking, and

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Speaker 1: it flips everything upside down.

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Speaker 6: Well, like you, I was very nice eve until I

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Speaker 6: went to Chicago, and then I sought police corruption on

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Speaker 6: the massive scale. But then when I got back to

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Speaker 6: Kansas City in eighty six and probably got involved in

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Speaker 6: Kansas City, Kansas in eighty eight, I saw the same activity.

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Speaker 6: There wasn't on the grand scale.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 6: It's that it's conducted in Chicago. It's basically police officers,

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Speaker 6: most of whom are white, picking on minorities, most of

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Speaker 6: whom are black, some of them are Hispanic. Because when

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Speaker 6: you're a drug dealer, you know, you can't go to

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Speaker 6: the police or the FBI and say, hey, these cops

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Speaker 6: are stealing my drugs, these cops are stealing my drug money.

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Speaker 6: You basically have to you have to suck it up.

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Speaker 6: So that's what they do in Chicago, That's what they

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Speaker 6: do everywhere.

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Speaker 1: So Lamont his troubles really began when his mom was

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Speaker 1: at a car with I guess was her boyfriend at

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Speaker 1: the time, showl right. Glubski approached the car and told

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Speaker 1: her to get out and threatened her with the rest

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Speaker 1: or the rest of her boyfriend unless she agreed to

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Speaker 1: come down to the police station. And then the problems

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Speaker 1: really began when she refused to become one of his girls,

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Speaker 1: so to speak, right, I mean, obviously, she was in

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Speaker 1: a terrible situation where she's very vulnerable, not able to

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Speaker 1: defend herself from a cop who's willing to go to

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Speaker 1: almost any length to fulfill his desires. She had a

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Speaker 1: tremendous problem, and she decided that she wanted to maintain

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Speaker 1: her dignity, really right, And so what seems like happened

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Speaker 1: is that as a consequence, Golubski decided that he would

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Speaker 1: target and frame her son in something that is so

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Speaker 1: evil that makes me want to quit the human race.

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Speaker 5: There was an encounter that Lamon's mother had with the

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Speaker 5: detective some years earlier. I mean it was years actually

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Speaker 5: before the double homicide happened. And at the time of

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Speaker 5: the double homicide, my client was inexplicably dragged into the case.

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Speaker 5: One of the eyewitnesses told the police she thought the

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Speaker 5: shooter looked like a Lamont dating her niece. Police never

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Speaker 5: bothered to find out what Lamont that was. They don't

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Speaker 5: go ask the niece what Lamont that was. They simply

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Speaker 5: put another Lamont and it's undisputed, an entirely different Lamont

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Speaker 5: my client into the case, and somehow obtain this identification.

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Speaker 5: What's interesting about the lineup, and I've never seen anything

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Speaker 5: like this before, is three of the five photos were

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Speaker 5: of young male members of the McIntyre family.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to say, well,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't make a lot of sense. It's one perpetrator.

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Speaker 1: It's not like somebody said there were three brothers that

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Speaker 1: were involved. It's one perpetrator, you know. And then the

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Speaker 1: justice system, we know, has a tendency to chew people

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Speaker 1: up and spit them out when they are poor, particularly

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Speaker 1: if they're minorities and underrepresented. It's really it's not a

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Speaker 1: fair fight, is it.

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean, this whole thing was an impossible battle

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Speaker 5: for Lamont to begin with. I mean, first of all,

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Speaker 5: the investigation itself, I don't think really qualified is a

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Speaker 5: true investigation because so little was done, no evidence of

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Speaker 5: motive was ever uncovered. There was no physical evidence that

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Speaker 5: tied Lamont to the crime. There was not even any

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Speaker 5: evidence that he knew the two victims. There are backgrounds

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Speaker 5: of the two victims and who might have a motive

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Speaker 5: to harm them that was never investigated. There was an

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Speaker 5: eyewitness directly across the street who was never interviewed, whose

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Speaker 5: mother said, you know, she knows who the suspect is.

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Speaker 5: I mean, the failures and lapses and regularities in this

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Speaker 5: case just go on and on. I mean, other than

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Speaker 5: the twenty minutes of taped interviews from the eyewitnesses, there

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Speaker 5: was very little else and the only evidence at trial

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Speaker 5: against Lamont were two eyewitnesses. One of them has admitted

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Speaker 5: that she lied, that she was coursed. The other eyewitness

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Speaker 5: seems frankly, very perplexed by her testimony, and it's very

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Speaker 5: clear that it's an eyewitness a misidentification based on manipulation.

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Speaker 1: And we know also that had this trial taken place

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Speaker 1: twenty years later or so, with everything that's known now

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Speaker 1: about the unreliability of eyewitness identification, there's a very good

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Speaker 1: chance that would have been discredited. Because there was no

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Speaker 1: other evidence connecting him to the crime.

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Speaker 5: You take a person who's traumatized, who has just witnessed

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Speaker 5: a really horrific event, and they can be pretty easy

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Speaker 5: to pressure or manipulate. And in factness provided in a

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Speaker 5: tape statement my client's last name, a man she did

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Speaker 5: not know and had never heard of, which raises the

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Speaker 5: very interesting question of who gave her the name. It

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Speaker 5: was undisputed at trial that she did not know my client,

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Speaker 5: yet the fact that there was an original tape statement

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Speaker 5: where she provided his name never came out. That was

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Speaker 5: never admitted at trial. She also stated wrongly that my

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Speaker 5: client was the Lamont who had dated her niece. At

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Speaker 5: trial undisputed that that was not true. It was an

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Speaker 5: entirely different Lamont who was in fact identified by his

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Speaker 5: name to the jury, an entirely different person. So, I mean,

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Speaker 5: the whole thing is troubling beginning to end, really a

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Speaker 5: perfect storm of chaos and horror and misconduct, things being

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Speaker 5: done improperly.

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Speaker 1: So you have this cop and this department that is

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Speaker 1: so corrupt isn't even the word, but that's engaged in

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Speaker 1: so many illegal activities, And isn't it ironic and tragic

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Speaker 1: that Lamont is in prison, living in hell after twenty

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Speaker 1: four years, and this cop who was, from what I've read,

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Speaker 1: raping people, robbing people, dealing drugs, protecting drug dealers, he's out.

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Speaker 1: How is that? I mean that must not sit well

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Speaker 1: with you with your whole background either.

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Speaker 5: What I'm really hoping for, what our entire team is

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Speaker 5: hoping for, and what we have sought for a long time,

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Speaker 5: is a very full investigation into the activities of this detective.

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Speaker 5: There needs to be an investigation by people who have

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Speaker 5: the power to follow all the leads, develop information, compel

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Speaker 5: the testimony of witnesses, and obtain other evidence.

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Speaker 1: Ah, let me turn it to you for a second,

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Speaker 1: because we have not had somebody with your background and

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Speaker 1: experience on the show before. And I would adventure to

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Speaker 1: say that you had a very very difficult and dangerous job, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, investigating cops, particularly when you're investigating cops who've

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Speaker 1: got a lot to hide, makes you a very unpopular person,

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Speaker 1: I would think so, looking back on it, how did

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Speaker 1: this manage to go on for so long without somebody

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Speaker 1: coming along and saying, you know, besides you, hey, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to tolerate this.

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Speaker 6: They don't give a shit. At the time we were

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Speaker 6: doing these investigations, the police chief of Kansas City, Kansas,

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Speaker 6: a guy named Tom Daly. He had previously been indicted

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Speaker 6: by the Federal Strike Force for extorting money at a

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Speaker 6: whorehouses along the Kaw River in Kansas. He was doing

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Speaker 6: that allegedly when it was a captain. He was acquitted

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Speaker 6: because it was a real weak case, but after a

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Speaker 6: quit it for extortion, the city wound up eventually making

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Speaker 6: him the chief. Is that the actions, you know, over

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Speaker 6: responsible a city administration or a police department. So he

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Speaker 6: had the chief over here, Tom Dale, who had previously

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Speaker 6: been indicted by the Feds. He despised the federal government,

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Speaker 6: he hated the US Attorney's Office and the FBI. And

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Speaker 6: he's the chief. He was part of it.

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Speaker 1: So you have this guy Golubski who in that scenario

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Speaker 1: is operating basically with impunity, right because he knows his

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Speaker 1: chief doesn't give a shit, And with the chief having literally,

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Speaker 1: well for what it sounds like, gotten away with that

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Speaker 1: particular pattern of activity as well as I'm sure other

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Speaker 1: things that he was doing, the people underneath him are

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Speaker 1: probably thinking, hey, this is great. No one's going to

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Speaker 1: touch us, and they're right, and nobody did. So how

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Speaker 1: frustrating was that for you?

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Speaker 5: There?

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Speaker 1: You are really fighting an unwinnable war, right, They're trying

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Speaker 1: to protect the public from the police force with they

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Speaker 1: chief of police who not only doesn't give a fuck,

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Speaker 1: but doesn't want that he wants you. He probably wants

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Speaker 1: you the fuck out of his hair, so he could

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Speaker 1: just you know, run the streets how he wants to.

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Speaker 6: Right when I started working over there, you had a person,

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Speaker 6: you know, some guy I knewed know a lot of

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Speaker 6: people in the county jail, and they would say, he

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Speaker 6: so and so confronted me and stole my money, stole

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Speaker 6: my drugs. You go, what's the cops name? I don't

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Speaker 6: know his name, you know what's he looked like, Well,

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Speaker 6: you know he's some white guy. Well you go to

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Speaker 6: the police. The police did not have photographs of their

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Speaker 6: police officers, So if if a victim came in there

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Speaker 6: alleging that so and so officer robbed from me, extorted me,

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Speaker 6: they didn't even have photographs to show people so they

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Speaker 6: could identify who the police officer was. So good luck,

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Speaker 6: you know, through the US Attorney's office, through Julie Robinson,

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Speaker 6: who was a prosecutor at the time. We subpoenaed photographs

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Speaker 6: of every sworn officer in the Kansas City, Kansas Police Department,

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Speaker 6: and there was hell to pay for that. I was

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Speaker 6: almost removed from the investigation because of that.

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Speaker 5: I think one of the problems is that other law

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Speaker 5: enforcement officers don't want to investigate law enforcement, and as

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Speaker 5: a general rule, I think they find it distasteful, something

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Speaker 5: they would rather avoid, and there is a tendency to

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Speaker 5: minimize misconduct. I found that really pretty shocking, not.

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Speaker 1: In light of everything else we're talking about, but I

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Speaker 1: could see how you would, and it really gets easier

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Speaker 1: and easier to see how these wrongful convictions are so common.

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Speaker 1: I mean, here, we have an interesting situation, right, We're

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Speaker 1: talking to Al who's in there with his badge, working

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Speaker 1: for the Federal Bureau of Investigation and basically being told

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Speaker 1: go fuck himself. So what chance does a seventeen year

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Speaker 1: old black kid from the poorer side of town. What

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Speaker 1: chance do does he have against this blue wall, this

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Speaker 1: blue monster that was out to get him. He had

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Speaker 1: no chance. So now fast forward to twenty four years later,

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Speaker 1: the monsets in a prison studying reading by all accounts,

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Speaker 1: a model prisoner, somebody who maintains a positive outlook in

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Speaker 1: spite of this what can only be described as the

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Speaker 1: worst fate that can befall an individual, to be incarcerated

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Speaker 1: with something he didn't do for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 1: But now we have hope, right, I mean, he has

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Speaker 1: hope thanks to you and the years of work that

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Speaker 1: you've done in this case and al and other brave

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Speaker 1: people who have devoted their time and in some cases

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Speaker 1: probably even risk their own personal safety to try to

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Speaker 1: get justice in this case. What does it look like now?

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Speaker 1: What happens next? Tell us what's going on.

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Speaker 5: We have a evidentiary hearing coming up in October, and

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Speaker 5: we tend to present somewhere between forty and fifty witnesses

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Speaker 5: who provide very powerful testimony on various aspects of the case.

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Speaker 5: There was almost nothing really to support the conviction to

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Speaker 5: begin with, nothing other than the testimony of the two

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Speaker 5: eye witnesses, and I believe that has been thoroughly shredded

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Speaker 5: at this point through recantations and admissions and the result

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Speaker 5: of other investigation. And we are also focusing on the

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Speaker 5: very troubling misconduct in the case. It is intimately connected

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Speaker 5: to how the investigation was conducted, and we're going to

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Speaker 5: bring all that out and show how we believe this

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Speaker 5: went wrong, and we very much hope to be successful.

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Speaker 1: What's the data of the hearing October twelfth, October twelfth,

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Speaker 1: and is this in a federal court?

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Speaker 5: We are in Windock County District Court is a state court.

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Speaker 5: My client is litigating what's called a successive petition under

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Speaker 5: sixty fifteen oh seven, and you have essentially a procedural

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Speaker 5: barrier to get over before you can get back into court.

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Speaker 5: But we do have this evidentiary hearing schedule that we

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Speaker 5: are very very excited about. One of the most compelling

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Speaker 5: things about the case we haven't mentioned this yet, is

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Speaker 5: that the families of both victims have always known my

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Speaker 5: client is innocent and are very much squarely supporting the

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Speaker 5: quest to free him. They know that they did not

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Speaker 5: get justice, Their families did not get justice.

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Speaker 1: And that's Cheryl. In your experience, it's not a common thing, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, most of the cases I've seen, even in

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Speaker 1: the face of what could be overwhelming evidence to the contrary,

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Speaker 1: the victim's family sometimes stick with you. What they've been

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Speaker 1: told all along, because they just can't They can't even

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Speaker 1: process the idea that they may have been lied to

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Speaker 1: and that the wrong person may have been serving time

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Speaker 1: for the murder of their loved one. So in this case,

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Speaker 1: this is a very very unusual scenario, isn't.

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Speaker 5: It It is? And one of the eyewitnesses is related

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Speaker 5: to both of the victims, and she her family and

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Speaker 5: the family of the second victim to whom she's a

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Speaker 5: bit more distantly related, have always told me that they

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Speaker 5: have known from the beginning that the authorities got the

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Speaker 5: wrong man. They have always known this. They've made periodic

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Speaker 5: efforts to correct this, to address this, to try and

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Speaker 5: get some justice, all without success.

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Speaker 1: And if there wasn't already enough to chew on, this

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Speaker 1: is the part that really just sets me off, his

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Speaker 1: court pointed. Attorney Gary Long was on supervised probation at

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Speaker 1: the time of the trial for failing to diligently handle

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Speaker 1: three prior cases. He was suspended from the bar a

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Speaker 1: couple years later for failure to adequately hand or a

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Speaker 1: separate criminal case. And he was this bar in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight. How is it even possible that, in all

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Speaker 1: life or death situation that you take somebody and you say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, we're going to give you a lawyer

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Speaker 1: who's already messed up three times.

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Speaker 6: Well, when I said nobody gives a shit, do you

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Speaker 6: understand what I mean? Do you know that that you

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Speaker 6: know that Tara Morehead Do you know she's now a

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Speaker 6: federal prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Tara Moorehead was the prosecutor in this case.

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Speaker 1: Obviously didn't see anything wrong with her prosecuting a case

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Speaker 1: in which a young man's life was at stake in

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Speaker 1: front of a judge with whom she had carried on

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Speaker 1: an affair a few years earlier. I think most reasonable

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Speaker 1: people would agree that one or the other should have

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Speaker 1: been recused from this particular scenario because even if they

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Speaker 1: were saints, and obviously they weren't. Because she's also the

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Speaker 1: same woman from what I've read, who threatened a witness

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Speaker 1: who tried to come forward with the truth with losing

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Speaker 1: custody of her own children. But yes, so now she's

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Speaker 1: moved up the ladder. Seems like all the bad guys

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Speaker 1: have won here. Al what the fuck?

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Speaker 6: Well, I think Sarah Morhait's currently married to a police officer.

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Speaker 6: I think there's some other prosecutors over in the federal

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Speaker 6: US Attorney's Office that are married to other police officers.

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Speaker 6: So you're not going to expect them to investigate police corruption,

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Speaker 6: are you.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess that would make it tricky, wouldn't it.

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Speaker 6: They're not going to do it, and they don't.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there is so much that it could be

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Speaker 5: investigated that ought to be investigated. And you know, I

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Speaker 5: should also point out that sexual misconduct among police officers

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Speaker 5: is not unusual in some departments. When you have poor

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Speaker 5: and vulnerable people encounter folks with ultimate authority over them,

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Speaker 5: ultimate authority in that particular moment, you know, those things

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Speaker 5: can happen all too easily, and they do happened frequently.

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Speaker 6: You know, when I was an agent, I'm about six

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Speaker 6: foot four. I had a gun, a badge, and a

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Speaker 6: radio and everything. At nighttime, when I was on my

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Speaker 6: way home or on the weekends, I would not drive

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Speaker 6: through Kansas City, Kansas unless I was accompanied by another

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Speaker 6: FBI agent.

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Speaker 1: So because you thought they might have run you off

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Speaker 1: the road or something else.

436
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 6: They could do anything. They could pull me over and

437
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 6: not saying they don't know who I was, and they

438
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 6: could say I pulled a gun and they could shoot me.

439
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 6: So I have all that power and authority. What does

440
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 6: some little black kid on the street have.

441
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: I hope that in exposing the story of Lamont and

442
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: some of the things that you've shared out that people,

443
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: you know, get their backs up and get get angry

444
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 1: and get involved. These are just people, They're just regular people,

445
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: and they're being so terribly abused and victimized by people

446
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: who are supposed to protect them. I don't it makes

447
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: me sick.

448
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 5: I just say that the fear and the terror that

449
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 5: some of the citizens experience cannot be overstated. I mean,

450
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 5: you have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

451
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 5: as I said in that moment, unchecked authority, there's enormous

452
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 5: fear of the police and enormous, sometimes unmovable resistance to

453
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 5: getting involved in anything that has to do with the

454
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 5: criminal justice system. I've spent some years, honestly, just earning

455
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 5: the trust of some people in the community so that

456
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 5: they will sit down and speak with me so that

457
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 5: we can investigate the case. Nobody wants anything to do

458
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 5: with a case you say, courthouse people walk the other way.

459
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 5: They don't want anything to do with that. And ultimately

460
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 5: we have been successful in securing some very good witnesses

461
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 5: because they did want to help someone they viewed as innocent.

462
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 5: And you know, I should point out here that all

463
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 5: of the street talk have ever heard in the community

464
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 5: is that Lamont is innocent, the guy who got wrongfully convicted.

465
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 5: It's like everyone knows, the whole community knows, the victims'

466
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 5: families know, everyone knows Lamont did not do this. Everyone knows.

467
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 7: You have a prepaid call from the Boks an innate

468
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 7: at Kansas Department of Corrections Lancing Correctional Facility. To accept

469
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 7: this call, press or say five to refuse. This call

470
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 7: will be recorded and subject to monitoring. At any time.

471
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 7: You may begin speaking.

472
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: Now, Lamont, Welcome to the show.

473
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 4: Thank you.

474
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: So, Lamont. I want to go back to the beginning,

475
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: when you grew up and how this all started. I've

476
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: seen photos of you with your family. It looked like

477
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: you had not an easy but a happy childhood. Is

478
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: that fair?

479
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 4: Yeah? I did.

480
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: Can you just describe what it was like. I've heard

481
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: you talk about Christmas and stuff. Uh.

482
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, we was tight knit.

483
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 5: You know.

484
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 4: It's like my mother was just an only parent in

485
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 4: the house and we was close. Me and my siblings,

486
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 4: and we did everything together. We stayed in one house.

487
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 4: You know, we took care of each other. So glowing

488
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 4: up with me was my family was a big game.

489
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 4: We didn't really fight about a lot of stuff.

490
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 5: You know.

491
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 4: It was me and my three brothers and my sister,

492
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 4: my modest sister. My mother worked a lot, so my

493
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 4: sister kind of watched after us a little bit. Some

494
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 4: other family members. I used to go to my family

495
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 4: member's house, my uncles, and be around them. Our mother

496
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,959
Speaker 4: was at work. I kind of still stayed around family

497
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 4: outside my home. So real family.

498
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: Oriented and where you grew up, you had no idea

499
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: at this time that the police force was really as

500
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: corrupt as any one could possibly imagine until this terrible

501
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: incident occurred. And I want to go back to that.

502
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: What happened. You were a seventeen year old kid going

503
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: along with your life, trying to make it in a

504
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: difficult place, and then one day out of the blue,

505
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: you get arrested and don't even know what's going on

506
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: or what happened.

507
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 4: Uh, That's exactly what happened. And it was a typical day.

508
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 4: It was like a Friday, typical day. I was in

509
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 4: road in a downy commage program where it's all time

510
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 4: to school where they would help you get your high

511
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 4: school the phone wall, and then they gets you in college.

512
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 4: So it was like a little degree program I was

513
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 4: a part of. And it was just a Friday. I

514
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 4: get a car phone call saying the police is over

515
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 4: my grandmother's house looking for me. Call my mother. We

516
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 4: go to the police station and they start talking about

517
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 4: two murders and I had no answers for him because

518
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 4: I didn't know what they were saying talking about. So

519
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 4: from that moment, I was arrested, charge and ovously convicted

520
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 4: of two murders that I had nothing to do with about.

521
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: And we know now that they were deliberately targeting you

522
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: because of this particular police officer who was up to

523
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: all kinds of criminal activity himself. And that's the irony

524
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: of this is that he belongs in jail. And I'm

525
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: hoping that by the end of this that's exactly what's

526
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: going to happen. But the idea that this system, this

527
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: so called justice system, had made a decision that you

528
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: were going to be their guy. There was this double

529
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 1: murder right two guys sitting in a car. They were

530
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: involved in drug activity. They were dealers. We now know

531
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: also that one of them had been beaten by the

532
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: guys he was working for in the drug business. Right.

533
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: He was working as a doorman in a crack then,

534
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: and he had feared for his life. And in fact

535
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: he had good reason too, because I guess he had

536
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: from what I've learned, he had been stealing from them.

537
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: So that every reason to know that this was a

538
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: drug hit. And you weren't involved in that game or

539
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: that business. Did you know these guys.

540
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 4: I didn't know the witnesses, I didn't know the victims,

541
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 4: and I wouldn't connected to it at all. That's why

542
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 4: so it so halted me to understand how something like

543
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 4: that could happen, because and I was bored about everything.

544
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 4: I didn't try to hide nothing, because I knew what

545
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 4: they were talking about at that time. I had nothing

546
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 4: to do with it, and I wasn't involved. I don't

547
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 4: know what the police officer's motive was to plan it

548
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 4: on me or I still don't know if this day

549
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 4: what happened.

550
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: Well, it does seem like now with everything we've learned

551
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: that the officer involved, the first one who arrived on

552
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: the scene was an officer named Golubski. It's a white

553
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: guy who had a proclivity for women of color, and

554
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: when he didn't get his way, he would exact revenge.

555
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: And so what it seems like is that in this

556
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: particular case, he targeted you because your mom wasn't having

557
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: any part of that. And that's what makes this particularly

558
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: sinister and sick. You end up going to trial, and

559
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: I find it interesting, among all the other things in

560
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: your case, that they offered you a plea bargain right

561
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: and you didn't take it.

562
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: I woman in the rest in the pleaborgan, I can't

563
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 4: understand how was I sit in that situation, and I

564
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 4: didn't know nothing about the crime itself, So plea borger

565
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 4: was far from my mom would think about a plea bog.

566
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: And why I find that and why I brought that up, Lamont.

567
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: And I've seen the mugshot picture of you, and it

568
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: really hurt my heart because I could see in your

569
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: face just how confused you were and scared of a

570
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: situation that you couldn't possibly imagine what's happening at that time.

571
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: I also would think that if you were guilty and

572
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: they're offering you a deal and you know your chances

573
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: of winning in the court are going to be low

574
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: because they have all these cops and everybody else that

575
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: is going to testify this. You would have taken the

576
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: plea bargain. Anybody with the right mind would take a

577
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: plea bargain. You're not crazy, are you? I'm not right.

578
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: It don't sound it don't sound crazy at all. So

579
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: in the situations like this, I mean, we have in

580
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: this country over ninety percent of cases end up in

581
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: plea bargains. So had you been guilty, that would have

582
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: been a very logical thing to do. But as an

583
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: innocent person and probably somebody who still trusted in the system,

584
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: you went forward with your right to a trial, and

585
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: you were represented by a guy who they knew your

586
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: court appointed lawyer. They knew this guy was incompetent because

587
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: he had already been disciplined for three previous cases that

588
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: he had completely botched. It almost sounds like they did

589
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: it on purpose. They assigned a guy who didn't go

590
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: and interview witnesses, who really didn't do anything he was

591
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: supposed to do. And what was that like? Were you

592
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: aware at that time that this guy I wasn't I mean,

593
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: I don't even know if it was really on your side,

594
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: But I mean, as you're watching these procedings, what were

595
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: you thinking.

596
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 4: He presented himself like a lawyer. He presented itself like

597
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 4: a person in there on my behalf to take care

598
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 4: of this business. And he's seeing real professional at first.

599
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 4: So I didn't know what to expect because I've never

600
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 4: been in that situation before anyway, So his first impression

601
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 4: was for me, it was a good impression because I

602
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 4: didn't know what a lawyer was supposed to do, or

603
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 4: I was so ignorant to the law and how things worked.

604
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 4: I just believed in the justice system at that time,

605
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 4: I really did. I thought there was no possible way,

606
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 4: being an innocent person or person that has nothing to

607
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 4: do with that crime, that I would be found guilty.

608
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 4: So I didn't really pay too much attention to the

609
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 4: credibility of this lawyer. It didn't dont on me that

610
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 4: I would be found guilty of the crime that I

611
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: had nothing to do with, so I didn't really think

612
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 4: about it in those times. I was just thinking, you

613
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 4: can give me any lawyer, anybody from anywhere, and it'd

614
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 4: be okay. Because once they realized they had the wrong

615
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 4: person ironed out in trial. That's what I was thinking.

616
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 4: But I didn't plan all. I think that people would

617
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 4: get on the stand and line it was on fabricate

618
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 4: and I didn't think that was gonna happen. I had

619
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 4: no idea that they had already made up in their

620
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 4: mind that I was going to be escaped goal for

621
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 4: this particular crime, so being needed at all, and how

622
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 4: they worked in the justice system. I believed in the

623
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 4: justice system at that time. I really did.

624
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: I think all of us do when we're kids, especially

625
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: brought up in a good home like you were. You

626
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: brought up to believe that people are good and that

627
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: the system is going to work for you. And then

628
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: you had a lawyer who, had he been competent, I

629
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: still think would have won your case in spite of

630
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: all this, because of the simple fact that it was

631
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: an easy case. The witnesses were not credible at all.

632
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: We now know that they also withheld exculpatory evidence, So

633
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: you really didn't have a fair chance, especially not with

634
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: a lawyer who was incompetent. And ultimately, let's not forget

635
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: that this particular lawyer was disbarred not too long after

636
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: your trial. And again for the listeners out there, think

637
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: about that. This is a guy who had been disciplined

638
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: in numerous cases prior to Lamont's and then ultimately gets

639
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: disbarred when the extent of his gross incompetence is brought

640
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court of Kansas the attention of the

641
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, and then he voluntarily gave up his license

642
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: to practice law. And that wasn't the end of the nightmare.

643
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: We now know too that your appellate lawyer was disbarred.

644
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't even make this stuff up. So

645
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: what happened? Like now you're in the courtroom, the jury

646
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: goes out, the arguments have been made. You saw these

647
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: witnesses get up and lie. You saw these police officers

648
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: get up and lie. Your defense made whatever arguments they made.

649
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: Did you believe that they would come back and declare

650
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: you innocent?

651
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 4: I did. I did fire with my ben I did.

652
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 4: I just didn't know that this is how the system worked.

653
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 4: They found me guilty based on false evidence or the

654
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 4: kind of evidence that was presented by a certain district attorney.

655
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 4: They heard stuff about me that wasn't even about Lama mcnatize,

656
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 4: and she just kind of made it stuff up, they

657
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 4: told his story and the jury believed it. But at

658
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 4: the time before they came back it was guilty verdict,

659
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 4: I still didn't think I'll be found guilty because the

660
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 4: whole time I'm sitting there and the whole time I'm

661
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 4: going through the process of getting too trial, I still

662
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 4: had no knowledge of the actual crime. So I'm thinking,

663
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,919
Speaker 4: with my young mind being naive, that there's no way

664
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 4: a jury can find me guilty when I'm really not guilty,

665
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 4: when I had nothing to do with it. I'm not

666
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 4: tied to it at all. The witnesses, the victims, I'm

667
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 4: not tied to it. I wasn't in the area when

668
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 4: it happened. When they came in, I noticed that no

669
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 4: jury's no one looked me in my face, no one

670
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 4: looked looked up. Everyone came in looking down at the floor.

671
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 4: So I kind of had an eerie feeling, but I

672
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 4: still had hope that it would work out in the

673
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 4: right way. So when they read the verdict and they

674
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 4: said guilty, it's like I seen my whole life last

675
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 4: before me and I and for that moment, I froze,

676
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 4: and I was sitting there and I stood up, and

677
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 4: I just remember saying something. I was screaming something, you know,

678
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 4: to the effects of I'm not guilty, and you got

679
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 4: the wrong person whatever, And I felt someone hold me

680
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 4: or grab me from behind, and I was in shot,

681
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 4: so I didn't really I was like a lost moment.

682
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 4: But I turned around. I see my mother hold me, screaming,

683
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 4: crying like don't take my baby away from me, don't

684
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 4: take my baby. And I'm looking at her and I

685
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 4: realized that this is a serious situation. Now I'm but

686
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 4: it still didn't feel real. It was my life in

687
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 4: my situation, but it didn't feel like my life or

688
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 4: my situation. I felt like I was outside of myself

689
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 4: looking at this event happened and I couldn't stop it.

690
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 4: So I was in shot and that shot lasted for

691
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 4: a few years after that. I was in shot.

692
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: So, no, you're convicted of a double murder and sentence

693
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: to life in prison. Where did they take you to?

694
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 4: The process is like from the time you get convicted,

695
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 4: stay in the county for about two months, then you

696
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 4: go to a citizen. Now the sentaceen in Wanna County.

697
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 4: It gave me two life sentences toront consecutive. Then after

698
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 4: that they send me to a process and center which

699
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 4: we call ARDU, where they see you to determine what

700
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 4: classification you would be, what custody you would be in.

701
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 4: I was considered max custody. So from there they send

702
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 4: me to prison. I was in hunts That's a that's

703
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 4: a prison in Kansas. They came Glady in the school,

704
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 4: one of those tough prisons. You know with people. You know,

705
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 4: it's a prison. It's like the work not there. You

706
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 4: have a prison? Is that more? It's it's this dark negative,

707
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 4: It's pension fields, hopelessness. It's a world that is all.

708
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: As a seventeen year old. Did you have plans, did

709
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: you have a career in mind? What was the outlook

710
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: for the future. We were still just trying to figure

711
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: it out.

712
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was seeing I wanted to do. It was

713
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 4: just I was I was being guided the line, and

714
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 4: I was just in a place where everybody around me

715
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 4: was either dying or going to jail or I was

716
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 4: just in the kind of environment. It didn't produce a

717
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 4: lot of hope or didn't have I didn't have a

718
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 4: lot of people to look up to or emulate, nothing

719
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 4: like that. But I did enjoy taking care of my

720
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 4: family so my life was just basically about trying to

721
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 4: take care of my family the best way I knew that,

722
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 4: or to look out for my loved ones. You know,

723
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 4: I had skills and things I could do, Like I

724
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 4: was a barber, I was cut here since I was twelve,

725
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 4: or you know, I was comedian. You know, I had

726
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 4: these in the back of my mind. I wanted to

727
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 4: be a comedian. I had things I wanted to do.

728
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: I just didn't know how to get to where I

729
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 4: wanted to be. But I still didn't think that my

730
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 4: life was just of being in prison or going to jail,

731
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 4: being in this kind of situation.

732
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: What is a typical day like for you on the inside,

733
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: How do you get through it? What's the schedule?

734
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 4: Typical day? Typical day is, I'll readjusted. It's like from

735
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 4: one day to the nextus finding a way to get

736
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 4: by for one day, learn something from my days, and

737
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 4: then I just try to it just sucks. I gotta

738
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 4: repeat it. Like if I have a bad day or

739
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 4: I'm frustrated for one day, I go to sleep, wake

740
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 4: up to repeat this day again. So I try to

741
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 4: find the best I can or get the best I

742
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 4: can out of a day. Because waking up and repeat

743
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 4: it is the anxiety. That's why all that The worst

744
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 4: stuff is knowing that for the last twenty three years,

745
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 4: two hundred some months, eleven hundred weeks and eight thousand days,

746
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 4: it's the same thing. It never changes. So I devote

747
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 4: my time to reading and studying and write. I write music,

748
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 4: I write poetry. I try to keep my mind free

749
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 4: as possible. I try to stay out of prison mentally.

750
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 4: I try not to. I'm not into prison politics. I'm

751
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 4: not in prison mentally, but I'm here. I have to

752
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,479
Speaker 4: be my body here, but I try to keep my mind.

753
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 4: It's far from as place as I can. So it's

754
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 4: just a bunch of moments of readjusted every day. And

755
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 4: I have a lot of love people that love me

756
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 4: and care about me, so I focused on that. But

757
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 4: it's bad. It used to be a lot worse than

758
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 4: it is now. I'm starting to see I'm coming alive

759
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 4: now because I can see a light and then it

760
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 4: just dark. Toddle, I've been there for so long. Something

761
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 4: better now, But yeah, it wasn't so good before. It's

762
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 4: better now. But it was always sad to wake up.

763
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 4: I had to repeat this same cycle over and over again.

764
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 4: That stuff is another driving person crazy. There's a lot

765
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 4: of moments while I'm feeling like it's the point, you know,

766
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 4: to keep going to wake up every day to have

767
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 4: to deal with the exact same nightmare you trying to

768
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 4: stay something the night before. But I had my mother

769
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 4: like she never gave up on me from day one.

770
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 4: When the worst moments of my life, you know, I

771
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 4: felt like I just couldn't do it no more, feel

772
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 4: like I couldn't take another step, she would show up.

773
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 4: And when she would grab me and hold me and

774
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 4: look me my faith and tell me this is not

775
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 4: my life I'm passing through, this is not my destination.

776
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 4: And so I had a lot of support my family,

777
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 4: and I gave my life to God and I pray

778
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 4: a lot of meditated lot. So initially I was kind

779
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 4: of in this dark place where I was just so

780
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 4: hurt and sad and depressed, and so I kept people

781
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 4: kept coming to my life. There was like becons of

782
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 4: light and hope for me. And I thank God for

783
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 4: all those people came into my life and supported me.

784
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 4: They sure that, uh I always had something to look

785
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 4: forward to. Because this is a dark place. It's a

786
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 4: dark situation where if you don't have enough support for me,

787
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 4: it was just support I had. Family is important. Then

788
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 4: years later chryl and ministries in anything projects, they kept

789
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 4: start coming into my life and they they breed a

790
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 4: life into me. It's like a second win. And I'm

791
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 4: grateful for those people, everybody who support me and everybody

792
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 4: who put forth effort go out every day and do

793
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 4: something to help me get my life back. I'm very

794
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 4: grateful for those people.

795
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: If you even allow yourself, if you allow your mind

796
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: to go there, what are you dreaming about when you

797
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: get out? Because I'm convinced you are going to come

798
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: home and I'm going to be there fighting right alongside

799
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 1: with everybody else. What's the first thing you want to do?

800
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: And then how do you see the future?

801
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 4: First day I'm gonna do with eat something. That's what

802
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 4: I fantasize about. Mostly, I want to eat something that

803
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 4: there from there, I want to have some type of

804
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 4: impact or effect on young people making poor decisions that

805
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 4: was eventually land them in a situation like this. You know,

806
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 4: So I want to just raise any kind of wareness

807
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 4: I can out decision making, because you know, had I

808
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 4: been taught how to make better decisions for myself. I

809
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 4: think even though I was eign to the law and

810
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 4: this is something that had nothing to do with me

811
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 4: and all that, I still could have been making better

812
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 4: decisions for myself before this stuff even came about. So

813
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be able to be there for

814
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 4: young people as much as I can. So I can,

815
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 4: I can help them understand that even though you don't

816
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 4: do something wrong, even though you don't commit a crime,

817
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 4: you can be you still got to be accountable, and

818
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 4: you still got to be mindful of the fact that

819
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 4: you out there floating around and you can easily be

820
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 4: put in a situation like that and if you're not

821
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 4: being productive and doing something that's productive out there in life.

822
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 4: So I don't want to be able to reach the

823
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 4: young people as much as I can. And now that

824
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 4: this said to be young, just anybody that doesn't want

825
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 4: to be able to share my experience and hopefully it

826
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 4: will help out in any kind of way.

827
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 1: I'm sure that you will do that. And then you're

828
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: going to have a very positive impact on a lot

829
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: of people because you have a very rare combination of

830
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: intelligence and a manner that is so positive and strong

831
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: but still gentle that I believe that you'll be able

832
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: to affect a lot of a lot of young people,

833
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,720
Speaker 1: and I'm looking forward to watching you do that. There's

834
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: one other thing I wanted to raise. I'm always amazed

835
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: when I speak to someone in your situation, and especially

836
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,720
Speaker 1: so with you, that you don't seem to be bitter

837
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 1: after everything that's happened. And I know you talked about

838
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,919
Speaker 1: your faith and family and the strength that you get

839
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: from them, But how is it possible that someone can

840
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 1: go through this most unimaginable nightmare still be in it,

841
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: and yet be as positive and strong as you are now?

842
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 4: Well, I have my moment with anger, but you've always

843
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 4: liked taken poison helping someone else die from it. I

844
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 4: would only want to think about me being angry. No

845
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 4: one else seemed to notice a pay attention to meet

846
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 4: being angry, So how is just for ourn experience? Being

847
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 4: angry doesn't help me? So I just wanted to help

848
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 4: myself because I knew. I always knew I was gonna

849
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 4: be here forever. I knew that eventually the truth was

850
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 4: surface and I would have a life outside of the wall.

851
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 4: So I devoted a lot of time and energy towards

852
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 4: helping myself and not hurt myself. So being angry was

853
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 4: something that was a hindrance to me, not a benefit.

854
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 4: So I try to say positive because this place is

855
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 4: you got to keep up with yourself and take care

856
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 4: of yourself, and anger and stress and all those things

857
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 4: is just shorten your life span. And I got life

858
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 4: to live, so I just choose. I choose to be positive.

859
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 4: I choose to not be angry and allow anger to

860
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 4: kill me. I don't want to die in this place,

861
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 4: and I don't want to have a short life. So

862
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 4: I stick fine to what I believe in, and I

863
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 4: believe in my favor and I believe in meditation, I

864
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 4: believe in exercise. I believe in taking care of my

865
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 4: mom body and soul, and that's what I devote my

866
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 4: time to.

867
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: Wow, all I can do is tell you that you

868
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: have you have all my respect and support, and I

869
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: have a saying, lamont you know. I've seen too many

870
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: miracles to stop believing in miracles. So I'm excited to

871
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: watch you be the next one or one of the

872
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: next ones, and we'll never stop fighting for you and

873
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: for other people in your situation. I'm looking forward to

874
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: a positive outcome and to getting to know you on

875
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: the outside. The min I'm just going to turn it

876
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: over to you and say, is your microphone, what do

877
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: you want to share with the audience.

878
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 4: Well, these kind of cases having well more than they should,

879
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 4: you know. So it's like a I always stay on

880
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 4: TV or DAYLN twenty twenty we see innocent man so

881
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 4: many years in prison and you get exonerated and you

882
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 4: see this happened Tom and Tom again. But what you

883
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 4: never ever see or hear or hear about is how

884
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 4: much that stuff and impact the affected the families. For

885
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 4: those people like I had a close knit family. We

886
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 4: was close and it was a thing just like me

887
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 4: being affected by it and invent that happened in my life.

888
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 4: It hurts me to see how much how much it

889
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 4: affected not only me but my family. And it's difficult

890
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 4: because if a man has to go through a certain

891
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 4: thing by himself, that's his life, that's his path and

892
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 4: life he gotta go through that. I have to do

893
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 4: what I have to do, no matter what. But when

894
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 4: you see somebody you care about being affected by what

895
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 4: you have to do or what you have to endure,

896
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 4: it a different kind of feeling. And it's like people

897
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 4: don't really pay attention to that or know about that.

898
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 4: Like when district attorneys of being dishonest when they're trying

899
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 4: to get convictions and all that, often they take that

900
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 4: consideration how many people they are affected by just not

901
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 4: going by the law, just not being truthful about certain things.

902
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 4: It's not just me, whatever issue personal issues they may

903
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 4: add about with me. My family is affected by that.

904
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 4: My brothers, my brother's kids when all this happened, and

905
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 4: they feel like they've lost a mother because my mother

906
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 4: devoted so much time for trying to get me back

907
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 4: out of the system that they felt like they was neglected.

908
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 4: So they was affected by that. My older sister was affected,

909
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 4: my brother was affected. I mean, everybody was.

910
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 7: Affected one minute.

911
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 4: And when you try to hold onto something good, even

912
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 4: when you try to get something good this kind of situation,

913
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 4: it's still nothing good comes from me. It's just always bad.

914
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,280
Speaker 4: It's always negative because always a challenge, it's always hurdles,

915
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 4: it's always something. But for the person that's in the

916
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 4: middle of it, that's just my experience. But on the

917
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 4: outside of it, that's something people don't ever get a

918
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 4: chance to see. That's just a harsh or harsh reality

919
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 4: for the person that lives based on someone else being

920
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 4: in competence when all this stuff basically could have been

921
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 4: avoided by someone that's doing their job. But the job

922
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 4: people was uh employed them to do, you know. So

923
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 4: I think people should understand that and know that it's

924
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 4: a lot of people to be affected by something like that.

925
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 4: I think a lot of tasers should be brought to

926
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 4: this moment and this kind of situation, so a lot

927
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 4: of people will get up. If you ever find another

928
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 4: person that situation, it can be more modeful of it.

929
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 4: It's not to help in a different kind of way

930
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 4: they could. It's not just about me, it's about everybody

931
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 4: who here about me too.

932
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: On October thirteenth, twenty seventeen, Wyandot County District Attorney Mark

933
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 1: dupri moved to vacate the conviction and dismissed all charges

934
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 1: against Lamont Magatyre. Hours later, Lamont walked free for the

935
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: first time in over twenty three long, miserable years. He

936
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: called me from the courthouse steps. It was one of

937
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,479
Speaker 1: the best calls I've ever gotten. And in that call,

938
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 1: he said he thanked me, and he said that the

939
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: exposure that his case had gotten from being on this

940
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: podcast had helped, and even if it was a tiny bit,

941
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: it had helped to lead to his exoneration. It was

942
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: a really extraordinary feeling, and I'm excited to share that

943
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: one has since won a one and a half million

944
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: dollar judgment for his wrawful conviction, and he and his

945
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: mother are currently suing Roger Klubski for all the damage

946
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: he did to their lives and their family. After a

947
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: thirty year reign of terror in the Kansas City, Kansas

948
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: Police Department, disgraced officer Roderikklupski went to work in Edwardsville,

949
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 1: Kansas in twenty ten. He has yet to face justice,

950
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: and he retired in twenty sixteen. Don't forget to give

951
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it

952
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Ennocence Project,

953
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this

954
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions.

955
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate

956
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,

957
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,080
Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show

958
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

959
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

960
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

961
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

962
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one