WEBVTT - Coda: Beauty For Ashes 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:10.959 A woman recently asked how I could hear good conscious 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:14.560 when an instruction book or murder. Some of this you 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:16.759 can figure it out without a book, and you couldn't. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:18.720 Some of it is bordering on you know what, do 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:22.000 we really want to tell people this because it's I 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:26.439 feel no responsibility. I have no ethical responsibility for the 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:29.840 misuse of information. You know, how do you go after 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.040 a book? I don't care what it says. This ship 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.919 cannot be protected by the First Amendment. There will be 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:42.879 always someone who is agreed by the content of someone's speech. 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.519 The books published are very unlikely to be the cause 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:58.840 of criminal conduct, murder, mayhem. When have you? She was saying, 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:02.120 if something ever happened is to me, it's Lawrence Horne. 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.800 And we laughed about it. We're like Millie, he's crazy, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.360 but he's not that crazy. He was with Halic. She 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:12.400 was in Montgomery County Police and the FBI, and he 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.360 called Lawrence right in front of you. At the time 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:21.959 that you married Willie Murray, did you love her? No? 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:32.039 After several years or or decades, the families that deal 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:36.360 with this type of horndous trauma are constantly dealing with 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:46.480 the fallout. It never goes away. I first thought this 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.440 was a podcast about a book, a murder manual for 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.200 want to be Hitman. I mean it is, But the 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.840 very first phone call I made when I started reporting 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.320 was to Tiffany Horn, Lawrence and Millie's oldest daughter. Over 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.920 the last fifteen years of making radio, I find most 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.280 people want to be heard, They want to know their 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.960 story matters, and they just like to know they'll be remembered. 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.040 But when I first spoke with Tiffany, she was immediately hesitant. 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.760 Actually hesitant doesn't do her reaction justice. When I started 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.079 to explain that I'd want the experience to be meaningful 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:23.040 for her, she just thought I was being patronizing. This 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:25.640 was a woman who's been through hell and some days 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.440 is still there. She had to want to do this, 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:30.480 and she had to know I wasn't going to burn 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.520 her like other journalists had. She told me she was 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:35.680 once on a talk show and they surprised her by 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:40.240 inviting a hit man on stage. Can you imagine. So 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.639 in our last episode, I want to talk about a 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.120 dynamic that's right at the core of many true crime podcasts, 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:52.720 the one between the journalist and a survivor. It's a 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:57.200 relationship filled with all these unexamined obligations and limitations and expectations. 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.760 It's a balancing act. Over of course of the last 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.360 two years getting to know Tiffany and learning how to 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:06.920 speak to her, how best to listen. This process informed 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.160 every step along the way, and We've come a very 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:32.119 long way from where we started. I'm Jasmine Morris from 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.400 My Heart Radio and hit Home Media. This is hit Man. 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.840 Tiffany and I had months of phone conversations before we 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.800 first met in two thousand eighteen. We'd try to meet, 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.320 but plans would fall through, and when we finally nailed 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.560 down a date, I immediately booked a flight to d C, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.440 got a hotel room near Tiffany's home, and waited for 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.520 her there. I was excited to finally meet her, to 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.120 be able to sit down across from her, look her 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.440 in the eye, and have a conversation. After all the 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.960 recording equipment was set up, the furniture rearranged, she called 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.120 to say she wasn't going to make it. She was 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.200 having car troubles. I could tell she was unsure, wondering 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.800 if this was all even worth it, But she did 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:31.480 eventually show up, so Tiffy and let's just start with 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:34.880 you saying your name and like who you are in 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:40.719 relation to this story? Like who are you? I mean, 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.800 I don't know. I just feel like I'm myself. So 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:46.080 that's hard. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, totally. 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:50.360 I'd just like to know how people see themselves within. Yeah, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.480 that's the thing. I have different facets and yeah, it's 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.440 kind of the perfect example of how our relationship evolved. 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.839 I'd ask a question, she'd question it, but we'd eventually 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.880 find our way. Why are you sitting here with me today? 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.960 I did do this podcast because I felt like there 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.479 were some things that I've never had a chance to 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.200 talk about, and I can't have these conversations really with anyone. 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:17.839 One of the things she's told me over and over 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:20.720 is how lonely it is to be her. I think 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.880 that's why Tiffany ultimately did talk to me. She hadn't 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:28.240 had anyone listened before, really listen. Pushed through her apprehension. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.440 Anxiety and grief sometimes disguised as anger. You become almost 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.880 like a pariah, and and it's too painful for people 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.360 to want to deal with. So even if you were 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:42.240 the victim, you kind of become ostracized and on the 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.080 outside of just society in some ways. But even after 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.560 Tiffany agreed to talk to me, she let me in 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.800 a little and then pull away. At one point, after 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:53.920 one of our interviews, I was walking her to her 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.640 car and she seemed nervous. She then stopped me in 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.400 the parking garage, turned to me and said, I have 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:04.240 to ask you something, point blank, so direct, and then 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.320 she asked me if I was related to the author 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.400 of hit Man. I was taken it back. It sounds 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.200 far fetched until you think about the manipulation she's experienced 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.719 in her life, mostly at the hands of her own father, 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.960 Lawrence Horn, the man behind so many of Motown's greatest hits, 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:25.000 who also engineered a hit on his own family. My 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.200 kids have a joke and they say, I think everyone's 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:31.360 a psychopath, and that has to do with your experiences 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:40.880 with your dad. Yeah, the gift that keeps giving. Try 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.320 to remember everything that happened around the murders, like when 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.120 detectives believe Lawrence was trying to scout his ex wife's 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.039 house he wasn't allowed in, and he was asking which 0:06:50.120 --> 0:07:01.200 room Trevor slept in, which one of right up there. 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.279 Even the night before the murders, he called Tiffany trying 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:08.960 to get information on where her mom and sister would be. 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.160 He put this on his own daughter, and it's a 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:14.800 lot to carry. I had been so terrified of that 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.480 man that he would come after me, even in ways 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.840 like maybe hiring someone to pretend to be a boyfriend. 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.720 I mean, I had fantasies like this, So it was 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:26.640 really hard for me to trust a lot of people. 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.120 And if I felt that they did anything weird around 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.720 my family, I was I was done with them because 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.800 I just I didn't know how far he would go. 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:45.240 In the years after the murders, Tiffany really struggled. There's 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.880 times that I've been just at the end of my robe. 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.120 I wouldn't say suicidal, but there were times when I 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.800 was really close to it, especially like two years ago, 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.880 like it was bad. Having my kids saved me. They 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:04.400 were my angels. They made my life so fulfilling even 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.800 with all the pain. Tiffany tries every day to rise 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.440 above what's happened to her. But despite all the trauma 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:14.120 she's endured, this did not break her, and this next 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.760 story proves that in the spring of two thousand twelve, 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:22.440 sixteen years after Lawrence Horn had been convicted, Tiffany discovered 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.880 that her dad had been transferred to a maximum security 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:29.120 prison five minutes away from her house in Maryland. She'd 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.920 driven by this prison so many times and wondered if 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:35.040 he was there. One day, a family friend who ministered 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:39.360 at the prison confirmed her hunch. Tiffany doesn't trust people, 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:42.680 but she does seem to trust the universe. She looks 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.920 for cues and acts on them. So I felt like 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.840 that was a sign. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.640 have to go up there. After stalling for two years, 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.199 she finally made that five minute drive. I sat in 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.520 the parking lot and just like, can I do this? 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:00.080 Do I really have the strength to do this? And 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:03.000 I felt like, you know what, you're here, It's not 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:05.240 an accident that this is so close to your home. 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.280 She sat there for what she says felt like an eternity. 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.240 Then she pulled herself out of her seat, walked into 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:16.959 the facility and tried to find her dad. There were 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.160 so many demons and so many things that I had 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.520 been battling, so much rage that had been building inside me. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:24.760 It was important for me to to let that go 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:30.080 and to face him. I wanted to really settle with 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.240 him and look him in his eye and also just 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.040 see my dad again, like I wanted to be that 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:36.880 little girl that I used to be and just look 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:41.280 at him that way instead of as this monster. Tiffany 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.120 speaks so highly of her father. Back then, he told 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.160 her how to listen to music, they'd go to movies 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.760 together and take ski trips. And She's not the only 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.720 one who remembers Lawrence this way. Everyone I spoke with 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.160 who worked with him at Motown describe him as this charismatic, funny, 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:58.640 quiet and kind man. It's hard to see him as 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:02.440 the same person. So as Tiffany was telling me this story, 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.000 I was at first in awe of her. I mean, 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.280 the amount of courage it must have taken it is 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.000 just astounding. Second, I was hoping the story would end 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.560 with some sense of closure for her. She'd worked with 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.960 a restorative justice and reconciliation program in Maryland, also known 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.400 as Victim of Fender Dialogue, and had the support of 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.880 a therapist, but when she visited him this time, she 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.920 was going to be alone with him. There were no therapists, 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.920 no counselors. It was just the two of them, like 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.840 the old days. He was still in a wheelchair. He 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.839 looked even worse. His glasses were askewed. I think he 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.040 had like tape on his glasses. I mean, it just 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:44.080 it broke my heart. Lawrence was sick, he'd been battling cancer. 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.560 A flood of empathy washed over me, and I just 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:53.040 I felt bad for him. I did. I felt instantaneously. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.600 It's like, wow, this is awful, you know, and this 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.400 is really what it comes down to. This is this 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.440 is what happened to you because of the choices you 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.760 made and you didn't have to go down that road. 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:09.960 But instead of feeling like satisfaction, I felt horrible. I 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.200 really wanted to talk to him in a kind and 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.960 gentle way, like I wasn't coming at him aggressively or angry. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.760 That wasn't what I was there for. I just said, 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.040 you know, I want you to know I forgive you. 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.200 You told him that you forgave him. Yeah, did he like? 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.600 He teared up a little bit. He did. We had 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.800 some moments. One of the first things he said was 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:35.880 that he owed me a debt, and a lot of 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.640 it seemed like rambling, but I think that was kind 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.640 of his way of admitting that he had taken something 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.080 from me and my sister. There was hope for a 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.680 few minutes in the Hollywood version of this story. Maybe 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.599 Lawrence gets emotional, Maybe he finally owns up to the 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.640 pain he's caused. Maybe the unconditional love of a daughter 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:01.000 proves overwhelming even for him. But this is in Hollywood. 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:06.800 It's a prison in Maryland. He went into the manipulations 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.280 and the denials, and he said things that he knew 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.480 would be hurtful. I think he made a dig at 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:14.680 my mother to like everyone thought she was so beautiful, 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.200 but I didn't think that it was awful, and I 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.640 just I was like, this is just a sick man. 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.920 And he maintained his innocence until he died, right, And 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.600 he really couldn't believe that I believe that he did it. 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:28.640 And he even said to me, how could you think 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:34.880 I'd do that to your brother. While Lawrence didn't give 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.600 Tiffany what I hoped he'd give her, she did come 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.480 away with something. I also had to be honest with 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.120 myself about who this man was, and that the man 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:49.640 of my childhood, the father of my childhood. You know, 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:54.679 this larger than life character. This superhero maybe never even existed. 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.640 It must be so complicated also loving someone who could 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.360 do something like that. But it's taught me a lot 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.440 about love, that you can love people even if they've 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:09.120 hurt you. It actually makes you the better person because 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:17.640 you're loving unconditionally. Lawrence Horn died a few years later 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.760 in two thousand seventeen while serving his sentence in just 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:26.720 a prison. But even with her father's death, despite her 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.880 many attempts to connect with him beforehand, this is just 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.160 one part of Tiffany's story that will never be resolved. 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:56.280 It's just not that easy. We'll be right back resolution. 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.120 That's what this is all about, right In a lot 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.800 of true crime story endings are satisfying, almost to a fault. 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.880 The investigation wraps up, the bad guys caught, justice has served, 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:12.160 the end things are resolved. Over the last two years, 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.679 Tiffany has shared so much and been so vulnerable with me, 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.400 So I found myself wanting to sort of honor her 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.440 with this podcast. I interviewed and got back in touch 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.760 with lots of people from her past, those who had 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.600 a hand in the murder investigations, her dad's former motown colleagues, 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.240 lawyers who fought alongside her family. I even answered this 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.320 unanswerable question of who wrote the book that started all 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.560 of this, And at the same time, I was constantly 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.200 hoping for resolution in a situation that just can't be resolved. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:50.080 Tiffany's stories, her traumas, there's no end to them. Tiffany's 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.360 grief is still so present in her life, and certain 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.400 months are really hard for her. March is always tough, 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.600 the month her brother and mother were killed. November brings 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.280 her mom's birthday. In our first phone call, I told 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.560 Tiffany that I didn't want this podcast to be about 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.440 Lawrence Horn. I wanted it to be about the people 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.760 he heard. Tiffany was eighteen years old at the time 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.320 of the murders. When we started talking, she was forty three, 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.240 the same age her mom was when she was killed. 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.960 I'm actually forty four, and the fact that I'm this 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:26.520 age is because I outlived my mom. On my birthday, 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:29.440 I kind of had a moment where I felt like, Wow, 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.040 I'm here. I'm literally like older than my mother ever was. 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:38.680 Tiffany and I talked a lot about her mom. I 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:40.640 really wanted to get to know Millie through Tiffany and 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.800 her stories and to bring her to life a little 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.240 bit in this podcast. And one of the things I 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.000 learned along the way was that Tiffany's relationship with her 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.640 mom wasn't simple either. Tiffany says she has a strong 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.840 personality like her mom Millie did, so they'd often butt 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.240 heads when she was a teenager. We were starting to 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.080 understand each other more as I got old her. You know, 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.240 I had gone to college. She was proud of her daughter, 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.360 her firstborn. They'd just begun to get close again right 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:10.440 around the time Milly was murdered, which makes this next 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:15.120 story even more heartbreaking. I was a college student, so 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:17.080 we would be up really late at night. I think 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.200 it was probably one in the morning. The boy that 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.280 I was dating at the time, we were on the 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.000 phone and we got into a huge fight, so he 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.160 hung up on me. Everybody would be on a speed 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:30.760 dial that you talked to all the time. This was 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:35.960 the big thing in but I mistakenly touched the number 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:39.280 that would speed down my mother because it was dark. 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.360 I was crying. I was upset. This was March second, 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.040 the night Millie was killed. So I called my mom 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.840 accidentally and I don't realize until she answers the phone 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.320 in a like a really groggy, sleepy voice, but also 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.760 with concern. And so I told her, I'm sorry, like, 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.480 I didn't mean to call you. I got in a 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.800 fight with the guy was dating. And she's like, oh, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.280 I'm sorry, you know, but it will be okay. And 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.159 I'm like, well, go back to bed. I know you 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.119 have to get up for work in a few hours. 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.000 I'm sorry. I feel bad for calling you, and she 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.159 was really nice about it, um and hung up the phone. 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.160 Tiffany was the last person to speak with her mom 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.160 because this phone call happened within an hour or so 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.959 of the murders. I sometimes used to wonder was he 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.840 already in the house, Like when I called, was he 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:32.600 in the house already? I mean, it's it's just it's 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.800 awful and it's nightmare inducing. And I used to think, God, 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.080 I wish I could have done something, But what could 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:44.040 I have done? This was really hard for Tiffany to 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.040 talk about. It didn't even come up until our final interview, 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:49.840 and it was the only time during many of our 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:54.760 interviews where she got emotional. It was clear this memory 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.000 still haunts her. There's also something else that kind of 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.720 eats away at her. It's been to a five years 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:02.639 and my sister and I have not been able to 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.359 organize scattering her ashes. I've actually carried my ashes with 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.760 me to every place I've lived in the last twenty 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:15.280 five years. In the summer of after the Children's hospital settlement, 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.960 Milly decided to take a trip to St. Martin and 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.280 she brought her family with her, and so it was 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.239 kind of like a girl's trip for her sisters and 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.359 their daughters, only it was all women. You know. We 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.320 had a great time. It was like three or four 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.280 days on this island. They would shop and my mom 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:33.679 treated herself to tennis bracelet, and she felt kind of 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.600 guilty about it, and I remember saying, no, you deserve 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.520 it because she had gone through all those years of 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.640 you know, the court case, which is you children's hospital, 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.840 just caring for my brother. I felt like she deserved it. 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.880 Tiffany still has that tennis bracelet. And while it didn't 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.760 seem like it at first, this trip ended up being 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.840 far more important than Tiffany or her aunt's even realized 0:18:57.720 --> 0:18:59.600 there was. At one point we were there and I 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:01.879 think she just felt really at peace and she said, 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.280 if I was to ever die, I want you to 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.320 bring my ashes back here because I love this place. 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.359 She was very intentional about that, that's what she wanted, 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:14.919 and my sister was really young at the time, as 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:20.160 she even remembers her saying that. Last year, Tiffany told 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:21.919 me she'd like to go back to St. Martin and 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.920 fulfill her mother's wishes. It had been twenty five years 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.760 since her mother's death and it just felt right. A 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:31.960 few months later, she called me and said she happened 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:33.919 to be looking up plane tickets and found one that 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:37.320 was pretty cheap. She wanted to recreate that girl's trip 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.879 her mother planned and booked two tickets, one for herself 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.600 and one for her daughter, Maria. I was excited for 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.159 Tiffany well, I knew it would be better sweet. This 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.159 felt like a moment where maybe she could find some resolution, 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.040 something could come to an end, And so we sent 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.360 them with a microphone to document the trip, and then 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:58.680 the night they were scheduled to fly out my phone 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.880 rang I could tell him immediately something was wrong. Tiffany 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.760 had tried to open her mother's urn and realized it 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.800 was sealed shut. There was no way she could get 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.960 it open. She had been kind of ambivalent about doing 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.760 this all along, wondering if she wanted to or even 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.960 could do it, so she took this as another sign 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.240 she wasn't ready, but I told her she should still 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.359 go show Maria the island sco about a spot for 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:27.360 when the time is right. So they went and they 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.199 retraced Tiffany's steps with her mom or she bought that 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.320 tennis bracelet. They went to the beach and Maria got 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.960 to learn some new things about her grandmother. And then 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:41.280 on their last day there, this is pretty I think 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:47.160 this might be a nice place for us to do it. Yeah, 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:53.919 I think this is a good spot. Tiffany and Maria 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.240 also recorded on the car ride home from the airport, 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.080 and when I listened to this after she sent me 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:03.280 the recordings, it sounded almost like a eulogy for her mom, 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:07.760 a memorial. Twenty five years later, I realized life is fleeting, 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:12.439 and it's important to do what makes you happy, what 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:17.120 really makes your family happy. Just being a single mother 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:19.399 of three kids, it is hard, but having a special 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.359 needs sin and then she was able to take some 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.440 time to enjoy herself. She didn't care what people thought 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:28.399 and That's what I kind of lived my life by, like, 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.200 I don't care what people think, because you can't get 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:37.240 that time back and nough. Tiffany never got to know 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.080 her mother as an adult. There's so much that she 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.800 absorbed as a kid. She's applying to her life now. 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:47.600 She's a person who really enjoys life, traveling, spending time 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:50.520 with her family, and building her career. Most of our 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:56.560 phone conversations involve a lot of laughter. One of my 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.439 favorite scriptures is Isaiah sixty one three and they Sickly. 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:04.240 It says God gives us beauty for ashes, and I 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:09.679 honestly feel like the ashes of my family being ruined 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:12.280 that my dad created. My sister and I were able 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.400 to take those ashes and create something beautiful. And we're 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:20.680 still creating something beautiful to honor our brother and our mom. 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:23.160 In one of our earlier episodes, I told you I'd 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:25.240 called Tiffany to let her know we were focusing on 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:28.439 her brother, Trevor, and she told me, I put my 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.879 love for him in this box in my heart, and 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:35.680 I don't open it often because it's too painful. I mean, 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.119 a hit man broke into their quiet home in the 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:41.040 middle of the night, and smothered an eight year old child. 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:44.879 It's really the unthinkable. I could never quite capture the 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:48.040 full horror of what happened to him. But this was 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:52.120 Tiffany's reality, this was her family, and even though it's 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.840 so hard for her, she insisted, he deserves to be seen. 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.919 He deserves to be remembered. I do tell people that 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.840 have losses, and it doesn't really matter how the loss happened. 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.280 The loss is. The loss is. You're going to always 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:09.640 grieve the these people that you love. It's a process. 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.800 I grieve sometimes really hard some days, even all these 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.119 years later, years later. I just want people to know 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:20.080 that's okay, Like there's not a time limit. There isn't. 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.679 I don't think I'll ever stop grieving my mom and 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:28.840 my brother never, but you can remember the love that 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:31.760 they gave you and just try to maybe turn that 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:35.040 around to you pouring love into the ones that are 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.760 with you right there. You hope you'll see them again, 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:40.280 but you also have their presence, Like my mom comes 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.560 to me in dreams. I have dreams also about my brother. 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:46.359 You know. I see things and my kids that remind 0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:49.600 me of both of them, and those are great things. 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:55.040 One of the things Tiffany told me while making this 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:59.280 podcast was that she wanted to inspire other women, especially 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:02.560 Black women, who have gone through horrific trauma and are struggling. 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:05.480 She said, there's a light at the end of the 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:09.320 tunnel and God has more in store for us. Tiffany 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:12.399 wants to give hope to people, something she didn't have 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:17.080 twenty six years ago. Maybe that's the opposite of hit Man, 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:20.639 a book that taught people how to hurt people, And 0:24:20.720 --> 0:24:25.080 maybe that is a kind of resolution. After all, she's 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:29.000