1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. For earlier access to these episodes, access 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: to Ask Me Anything sessions, and extended breakdowns of historical 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: and current events, Please consider joining our Warning Premium community 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: by clicking the link in the description to this episode. 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: There are so many things to be said about Ron 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: de Santis' announcement and propaganda event with billionaire David Sachs 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: and one of the richest men in the world, Elon Musk, 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: along with a host of other right wingers on Twitter spaces. Apparently, 9 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: Twitter spaces is like am radio that doesn't work. Ron 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: de Santis is forty two years old, but he seems 11 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: to have an embrace of technology when judged against the 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: disaster of this Evening's event, like a ninety two year old. 13 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: At any rate, Tonight's the BAK will long endure as 14 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: the most inept announcement in the history of the modern 15 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: era of presidential politics. There's something wrong with Ron DeSantis 16 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: with regards to how he views the role of a 17 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: presidential candidate. Ron DeSantis doesn't seem to be interested in 18 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: interacting with people. There's something old school, and by old school, 19 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: I mean old school people as in twelfth century, where 20 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: you never saw the pope. It reminds me of Emperor 21 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: Hirohido during the last days of World War Two. The 22 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: Japanese people had never ever seen Hirahito. They revered the 23 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: emperor as a god. They had never heard his voice 24 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: until they heard it for the first time on radio 25 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: announcing the surrender of the Japanese Empire. It seems that 26 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis doesn't want the American people very much to 27 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: interact with him. Watch this scene. It's really extraordinary. Here's 28 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: a governor of Florida, a presidential candidate. He interacts with 29 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: a voter and he wipes not all over him. This 30 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: announcement video by Ron DeSantis that preface the Elon Musk 31 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: propaganda event is extremely peculiar. Ron DeSantis shows the American 32 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: people his back. It's a sign of disrespect, but it 33 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: tells us something about him. It tells us how the 34 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: people around him think about him. His wife Casey, compared 35 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: him to the big guy God in this ludicrous ad. 36 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: And now Ron DeSantis is seen walking away from us, 37 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: towards the American flag, around a corner and onto a stage, 38 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: always alone, away, segregated from real people. It is an 39 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: odd impulse for a politician. He seems repelled by the 40 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: people like no politician on the national stage since Richard Nixon. 41 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon was able to take political power because he 42 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: was a great politician. He understood, after having lost a 43 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: presidential race, how to use the medium of his era 44 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: in his day to his advantage. By the time his 45 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: comeback was underway in nineteen sixty eight, Ron DeSantis doesn't 46 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: seem to understand the technology of his day. But there 47 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: he was with Elon Musk, the richest man in the 48 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: world on any given day, and David Sachs, a lesser billionaire. 49 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: David Sackson introduced him and began with an opening that 50 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: sounded like the Unibomber manifesto. It was truly extraordinary, And 51 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: then on it went. A couple of hangers on who 52 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: got minor roles in the propaganda event praised Elon Musk. 53 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: They thanked him. They thanked him for buying Twitter. They 54 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: thanked him for fighting against the conspiracies that are apparently 55 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: everywhere inside the mainstream media. For much of the program, 56 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: it played out like a grievance session on AM warning radio, 57 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: aggrieved hosts talking about the conspiracies piling up and mounting 58 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: against them, and on and on and on it went. 59 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: Ron de Santis was asked directly about Disney and his 60 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: fight with them. Ron de Santis dissembled, to say the least. 61 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: The truth of the matter is Ron DeSantis did like 62 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: Disney criticizing Ron DeSantis' legislation, and he acted with retaliation. 63 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: He punished a dissenting voice. He abused the power of 64 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: his office by trying to coerce silence from a company 65 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: that has every right to speak out. What he did 66 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: was authoritarian, an American and completely oppositional to the ethics 67 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: and the ethos of conservative ideology that says government has 68 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: no business telling the shareholder or telling a private sector 69 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: business what it can and cannot do. But at the 70 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: heart of this event was something more sinister. Elon Musk 71 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: is the richest person in the world, and what he 72 00:05:54,560 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: did was debut his preferred presidential can it on his 73 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: commercial platform, the malfunctioning Twitter Spaces, which appears to be 74 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: a version of AM radio, only one that doesn't work properly. 75 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: Maybe it's like early radio from the very very early days. 76 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: At any rate, it assembled a fairly meager audience compared 77 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: to what Ron DeSantis would have drawn on television and 78 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: engage Ron DeSantis in a discussion of their conspiracy theories 79 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,559 Speaker 1: and pet projects. I guess the question is what does 80 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: David Sachs and Elon Musk get out of Ron de Santis. 81 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: This is a terrible look for Ron de Santis. It 82 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: makes him look weak and owned, controlled and bought, and 83 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: small and invisible. There's another problem with Ron de Santis's campaign, 84 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: and it's this. It makes no sense whatsoever. He said 85 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: at the beginning that the Republican Party is on a 86 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: losing streak. Indeed, it is been on a losing streak 87 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, twenty twenty, twenty twenty two. I'll tell you 88 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: a secret. Do you know who lost? Donald Trump lost? 89 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: You know who will never ever say that out loud, 90 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: Ron de Santis. He won't say that Donald Trump lost, 91 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: But he's running saying Republicans have lost and they need 92 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: a winner. Trump is running saying that he won and 93 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: didn't lose. See how it works. It makes no sense. 94 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: Ron de Santis's campaign will tear itself apart before it 95 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: even begins. This event tonight was ludicrous. It was a 96 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: failure at an epic level. It was a force, It 97 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: was exactly what you would expect from an Elon Musk 98 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: production getting involved in a presidential campaign a week or 99 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: so after overt articulations of anti Semitism with his attacks 100 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: on George Soros. Elon Musk has every right to do 101 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: whatever it is he wants to do in the United States. 102 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: It's a free country. But he's no free speech advocate, 103 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: and Elon Musk doesn't care much about the future of 104 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: the United States. He cares about the future of Elon Musk. 105 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: That's what he cares about. And you saw it play 106 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: out tonight as all those sick of fans praised him, 107 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: including Ron DeSantis. It's an unfortunate aspect of this moment 108 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: of politics that the presidential candidate should be tattooed or 109 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: be wearing the jerseys of the billionaires that sponsor them. 110 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: We had one of the richest men in the world, 111 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: Larry Ellison in the front row for Tim Scott. He's 112 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: apparently good for one hundred million dollars maybe more. You 113 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: have Steve and the billionaire owner of the New York Mets. 114 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: He's all in for Chris Christy and for Ron de Santis. 115 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: He's got Elon Musk the richest man in the world. 116 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: And what they did tonight was put on a show. 117 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: It wasn't about accountability or freedom. The American people didn't 118 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,599 Speaker 1: even get to see him. All they heard were the 119 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: rehearsed and prescribed questions and answers rehearsed for days, no doubt, 120 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: between a couple of billionaires talking about their associations, their whims, 121 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: and their pet projects. It was an appalling spectacle and 122 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: it's one that's not going to work for rond de Santis. 123 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: In the Republican primaries ahead. Ron DeSantis will fade quickly. 124 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: Tim Scott will soon be the ascendant candidate in the 125 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: Republican field, moving into second place. One thing is clear 126 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: after watching Ron DeSantis tonight. In the history of presidential campaigns, 127 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: of which there have been many and many many failures, 128 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: and many failures that became laughingstocks, Ron DeSantis is apparently 129 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: trying for a league of his own. This was a 130 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: ludicrous launch for a ludicrous campaign that no doubt, will 131 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: get worse by the day. Really thrilled today to be 132 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: joined by an excellent member of Congress. It's lazy to 133 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: say that all of Congress is written. That's a cynical 134 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: way to look at it. There are some exemplary members 135 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: of Congress that you can trust that tell you the truth, 136 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: that are smart and in fact or precisely the type 137 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: of people by personality, disposition, temperament, experience, judgment, probity, and 138 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: wisdom that you want. Sitting in a chamber of four 139 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty five members in a nation of three 140 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty million people doing the nation's business, there 141 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: are not enough serious people in the United States Congress. 142 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: But that's not an issue with the person we're lucky 143 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 1: enough to be joined by today, Congressman Dan Goldman. 144 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: Welcome, Thanks Steve, very nice introduction and appreciate you saying 145 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: all that. 146 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: So when I think about what's happening in this moment, 147 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: the word that pops across my frontal lobe is careening, 148 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: kreening towards an unnecessary economic crisis, a default. And I 149 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: wanted to ask you, sitting there, what does it look 150 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: like from Washington? What is it that you are witnessing 151 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: seeing How can you explain it to people that are 152 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: out there trying to get a handle on what's happening, 153 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: And explain, if you would, how much worse and more dire. 154 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: This is going to get day by day as the 155 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: as the line gets closer and closer to a national default. 156 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I think it's it is. One of 157 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 2: the difficult things about this situation is it's hard to 158 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 2: explain in thirty second sound bites as you might get 159 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: on cable news television. Which is why you know a 160 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: podcast like this actually is the right forum, because essentially, 161 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: we have committed to spending in the past, or spending 162 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 2: and cuts in the past, in every administration, every law, 163 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 2: there's a there's a financial cost to it that ultimately 164 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: has to be paid for. And the way that the 165 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: United States pays for it is we essentially sell our 166 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 2: bonds in our own treasury treasury bonds which are very common, 167 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: and we issue those bonds to other countries or other individuals, 168 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: and we end up having to take We end up 169 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: having to pay interest on those bonds that accrues over time, 170 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: and that ultimately can if we do not generate as 171 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 2: much tax revenue or other revenues, ultimately lead to a deficit. 172 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 2: And so we have a very high deficit of around 173 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 2: thirty one trillion dollars that is a result of many 174 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: things including legislation decades ago, including recent legislation, and including 175 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: tax cuts and other types of revenue cutting legislation, including 176 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: the twenty seventeen Trump tax cuts that increased our deficit 177 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 2: by two trillion dollars and gave the benefit eighty seven 178 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: percent of the benefits to the wealthiest one percent. So 179 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: this has accrued over time. One hundred years ago, one 180 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years ago, Congress passed a law saying 181 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 2: that in order to increase our debt ceiling so that 182 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: we can pay our debts, we need a we need 183 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: a bill, we need a law that allows us to 184 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: do that. And over time we have had to consistently 185 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: do that as our deficit has gotten bigger, and more recently, 186 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 2: as inflation has risen more, interest rates have gone up, 187 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 2: and so our debt costs more to pay. And what 188 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: ultimately is going on right now is that we need 189 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: to lift our debt ceiling in order to pay our 190 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: past debts. It has nothing to do with future spending, 191 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with future revenue with cuts 192 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: or whatever we decide we're going to do next year 193 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 2: or the year after. Everything related to the debt ceiling 194 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: is retrospective. We're looking backwards and we're paying things we've 195 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: already committed to. During the Trump administration, Congress raised the 196 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: debt ceiling without any preconditions three times in order to 197 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: pay the debts, including on those tax cuts, which were 198 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: the most significant driver of the deficit during the Trump administration. 199 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 2: So now we are up against that debt ceiling and 200 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: we need to pass another law that increases the debt 201 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: ceiling from the thirty one point four trillion dollars where 202 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 2: it is in order to continue to pay our debts. 203 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: This is not the normal budget process. This is not 204 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: when we do our appropriations process and spending. But what 205 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: the House Republicans are doing is they are making their 206 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 2: agreement to raise our debt limit contingent on spending cuts 207 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: in a wide variety of areas and in undoing some 208 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: of the past legislation. Now this is out and out 209 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: extortion because they would never ever be able to pass 210 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: any of the things they are demanding right now through 211 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: in the regular order of congressional business, the regular budgetary process. 212 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: It would never get through the Senate and it would 213 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: never get signed by the President. But what they are 214 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 2: doing is they are holding out on the essential need 215 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 2: to raise our debt ceilings so we can pay our 216 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: past debts in order to hold the American people hostage 217 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 2: and potentially lead to calamitous financial ruin. 218 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: I want to key off a couple of words that 219 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: you used that I don't think you used lightly, being 220 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: that you were a federal prosecutor who prosecuted Genovi's family, mobsters, 221 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: amongst others. Extortion, hostage, right, that this is an act 222 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: of extortion. That's how you say it. 223 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 2: I do. 224 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: And the country and the country has been is being 225 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: taken hostage by this, and I agree with it. I 226 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: want to talk about a concept very quickly here, which 227 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: is these words, the full faith and credit of the 228 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: United States of America, and what that means. Now, every 229 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: leader or set of leaders, from the beginning of the country, 230 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: across both political parties, has had a basic understanding of 231 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: the concept that even if they were deficit and debt spenders, 232 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: and certainly all of our recent presidents have been up 233 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: until Trump, and then Trump's spending was next level there 234 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: that they're threatening to default, But the idea that you 235 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: would not pay the payments on the debt is an 236 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: extraordinary departure from history. In this country. 237 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 2: You're exactly right, Steven, And we saw in twenty eleven 238 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 2: the Republicans used the same playbook against President Obama. And 239 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: what happened was, even before we reached the point of default, 240 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: our bond ratings went down. Now, the United States Treasury 241 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: and bonds in the United States government are traditionally considered 242 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: to be the most reliable investment that anyone in the 243 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: world can make, and our entire economy is predicated on 244 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: that full faith and credit in our Treasury Department and 245 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: in knowing and everyone around the world knowing that the 246 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: US is the economic leader around the world. Our bonds 247 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: are as pristine and prime as any in the world, 248 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 2: and that has a massive, sprawling effect on the global economy. 249 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: When Moody's reduced the rating of our bonds in twenty eleven, 250 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: there was a shock wave through the economy, and that 251 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 2: was before we even defaulted. The ruin that will come 252 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 2: if we default on our debts will have tremendous consequence. 253 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: There are estimates, independent estimates that eight million Americans will 254 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 2: lose their jobs. They will we will not be able 255 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 2: to pay our debts, which will raise interest rates, so 256 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: raise loan rates, raise all sorts of rates make everything 257 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: much more expensive. It will devastate a lot of businesses 258 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 2: that are operate on debt. It will have a catastrophic 259 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 2: impact on not only the US economy, but the global 260 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: economy because so much is spent on that. And the 261 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: Republicans know that, and they know that the impact of 262 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: this will be devastating. And Representative Matt Gates from Florida 263 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: said the quiet part out loud yesterday to the media 264 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 2: and when he said, why would we negotiate with our hostage? 265 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 2: So this is not just me saying that they are 266 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: holding the American people hostage by way of the Democrats 267 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 2: and the President. This is them saying that because they 268 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 2: know that Democrats generally will make sure that this calamitous 269 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 2: ruin of an economic default, of a default on our 270 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 2: debts does not happen, and they believe that President Biden 271 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 2: will cave because he does not want that to happen 272 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 2: to the American people. Well, they take no responsibility for 273 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 2: their role in not only increasing our deficit and causing 274 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: all these debts, but in the requirement and the duty 275 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: that they have to pay those debts. 276 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: So let me let me just be clear and and 277 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: align myself in total agreement with you that you know 278 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: this issue is an appalling act of reckless, irresponsible political 279 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: conduct by an extremist House Republican majority that is ransoming 280 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: the economic prosperity of the nation, uh for a hobby 281 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: project that is deeply, deeply hypocritical when you look at 282 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: the fact that there were no objections against the eight 283 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: trillion dollars of Trump debt and across three increases of 284 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: the of the debt ceiling. Now, I want to talk 285 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: about the politics of this and ask you if you're 286 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: frustrated at all, and so at the at the beginning 287 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: of the conversation, let me say, when I think back 288 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: over my political career within the White House, you know, 289 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: as a senior aide to leadership in Congress, to a 290 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: California governor, you know, other jobs, I've always proceeded from 291 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: a point of view that language is important and so 292 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: never means fucking never and sometimes means sometimes. And you 293 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: need to draw a line. Now, I remember coming to 294 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: California where I first met Kevin McCarthy in very early 295 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: two thousand and six. I left the White House to 296 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: take over Arnold Schwarzenegger's campaign, and it wasn't as if 297 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: Congress was at a high water mark in early two 298 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: thousand and six. But I distinctly remember, and a lot 299 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: of these guys are now in Congress from from California, 300 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: but they were all in the ledges. Tom McClintock being 301 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: another one. I remember going to my first caucus meeting. 302 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: I said, holy shit, I said, these guys make the 303 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: Congress look like Churchill's war cabinet. It was just it 304 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: was just unbelievable. Right, So, watching Kevin McCarthy over many years, 305 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: this is somebody who just two weeks ago, Joe Biden said, 306 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: I think Kevin McCarthy's an honorable guy that you can 307 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: negotiate in good faith with. I think that's absurd on 308 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: its on its face, But secondarily to that President said 309 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: in the Democratic position was we will not negotiate on 310 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: this issue. We will not link it to cuts in 311 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: future spending. We will not let you ransom the country. 312 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: And there you have Kevin McCarthy now sitting in the 313 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: Oval Office opposite the President, in the opposing head of 314 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: State chair, right. One of the most exalted pictures, right 315 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: that you can have in terms of you know, you 316 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: want to picture that Kevin McCarthy is going to hang 317 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: on his wall and exalt himself in and you know, 318 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: raise his stature and image. It's that picture. So now, right, 319 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: the American people care about spending. You're moderate Republicans such 320 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: that there are in the actual country, not in the Congress, 321 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: are the most fiscally conservative people in the room. The 322 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: debt at thirty two trillion dollars is something that a 323 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: lot of us are concerned about. Believe that both parties 324 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: are big spending parties are sympathetic to we have to 325 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: cut spending. This is a runaway train. And now Kevin McCarthy, 326 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,959 Speaker 1: of all people, has snookered the President into a direct 327 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: negotiation on this and is actually on the right side 328 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: of the that issue. Are you worried about an unfolding 329 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: political disaster here as we come into the summer, that 330 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: the that the White House has lost control of the 331 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: political argument, that it's a mistake to have open direct 332 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: negotiations and come off that line with with the White House. 333 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: And I'll just say I'm very worried about it, and 334 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: over my dead body, right, if I was sitting there 335 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: in the White House, in the Chief of Staff's office, 336 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: would I would I have, you know, signed off on 337 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: these negotiations, you know, going forward. It's a terrible, terrible idea. 338 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: In my book, I hear you. 339 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 2: I I do think that. I I think part of 340 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:50,239 Speaker 2: the problem that you're recognizing is once you open up 341 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: the gate to negotiations, there's not an obvious endpoint. And 342 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 2: what what I think you have hit the nail on 343 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 2: the head about is one of the problems that we've 344 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: run into with this Donald Trump controlled Republican Party is 345 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: we no longer can have faith that our leaders actually 346 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 2: care about the interests of the country as opposed to 347 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 2: their own personal interests. And no matter what you want 348 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 2: to say about George W. Bush and I disagreed with 349 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: many of his policies, I never once questioned his fidelity 350 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: to the Constitution and his fidelity to our country. Now, 351 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: maybe you know some of the interrogation tactics. You know, 352 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 2: we can disagree on some of that issues, but he 353 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: was doing that whatever he was doing in furtherance of 354 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 2: the country's interests. And so that is the Republican Party 355 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 2: that President Biden knows, and I think he is desperately 356 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 2: hoping that there are some remnants of that Republican Party left. 357 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 2: I've not seen it in this house. Republican leader. 358 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: I wanna, I wanna, I wanna. I want to stop 359 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: you there and ask you about that. And I and 360 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: I do think that you are precisely correct in analyzing that, 361 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: and I think it is not a lonely view amongst 362 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: many members of Congress, many people in Washington, DC. And 363 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: I guess the question I would ask is what do 364 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: you attribute it to? After eight years and Trump has 365 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: really now been on the national stage with the birth 366 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: or nonsense and everything else for for a decade. What 367 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: more does anybody need to see to understand that these 368 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: people mean exactly what it is that they say they mean. 369 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: What do you do you think the disconnect is? 370 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 2: So this is something I thought a lot about because 371 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 2: the influence that Donald Trump continues to have over the 372 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 2: Republican Party is shocking to me. Now. I led the 373 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 2: first impeachment investigation, and it was I think pretty clear 374 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 2: from what we demonstrated and proved that he abused the 375 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 2: power of his office to use his official authority for 376 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: his personal gain. But what he did and withholding four 377 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: hundred million dollars of military assistance at that time, seems 378 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 2: quaint compared to what he has done since. And when 379 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: you see what he has done post twenty twenty election, 380 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 2: trying to overturn the election and citing a violent insurrection, 381 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: and you still have so many members of his party 382 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: and the leadership and control of the House Republicans who 383 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: are still kissing his ring, it is shocking. So you 384 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: ask yourself why. I think there are a lot of 385 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: smart people who have a lot of reasons. My brief 386 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 2: take on it is that Donald Trump expanded the base 387 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: of the party to a number of voters who were disengaged, 388 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: who were not voters, who were not part of this process, 389 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 2: and they only got engaged in the political process because 390 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: of him, and they are un unbreakable in their support 391 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: of him. That base has I think expanded a little 392 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: bit as the rest of the Republican Party has shrunk, 393 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 2: So it is now a disproportionate amount of the base 394 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 2: of the Republican Party. And there is simply a cult 395 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: following of Donald Trump from those people and others that 396 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: they have infected. And so even if ultimately he only has, 397 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 2: you know, support from twenty five or thirty percent of 398 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 2: the Republican Party, and I think it's probably more than that. 399 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: At this point, he remains that's about all you need 400 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 2: to win a large, a multi candidate primary. And so 401 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: he continues to have control because of the following that 402 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 2: he has and the threats that he uses as a 403 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: wanna be mob boss to threaten to primary anyone who 404 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 2: goes against him, to threaten to support anyone who doesn't agree, 405 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 2: to support anyone opposing someone who doesn't agree with him, 406 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: And essentially he is, in true you know, Republican fashion, 407 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,239 Speaker 2: holding the House Republicans hostage to his whims. And that's 408 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: why there's such an outsized influence, because I have conversations 409 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 2: with people in Congress behind the scenes quietly they can't 410 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 2: stand him, and they think he's terrible for the party, 411 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: but they would never speak out. And they because they 412 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: are concerned about their own political future. And we have 413 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: seen many times that when you stand up to Donald Trump, 414 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 2: if you're in the Republican Party, he will come after 415 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: you with a far right extremist primary. And in many 416 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: cases he wins. Now in the Senate he didn't win 417 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: last time, and in some of the you know, but 418 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 2: in the House he did pretty well. And so that 419 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 2: is a threat that looms, and any rational person who's 420 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 2: just focused on their reelection is just not going to 421 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: entertain that kind of you know, that kind of discourse 422 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: with him. 423 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: How do you feel about the fact that you'll read 424 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: blind quotes from White House political advisors basically saying we 425 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: want Trump, we want Trump through the Republican primary to 426 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,719 Speaker 1: be the nominee, which really means bringing Trump into the finals. 427 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: He's one of the major party nominees on the ballot 428 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: and in position to win an election against someone at 429 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: the end of the day who will be eighty two 430 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: years old and has an approval level that ranges from 431 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: high thirties to mid forties. When I read that, it 432 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: brings me to the edge of an aneurysm. I can't. 433 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: It's so reckless that there's not a word for it. 434 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: And at the same time, I was talking to a 435 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: group of Democratic friends of mine, all work in politics. 436 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: I'm the only former Republican in the room. I was 437 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: trying to bring up the case is that there's only 438 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: really two teams in the league. Right if there were 439 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: fifteen teams and Donald Trump and his MAGA coalition were 440 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: crushing everybody, that says something. But if there's only two teams, 441 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: and that's the team that you were losing to in 442 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: this race. That race, it says something. Do you understand 443 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: what the appeal is, what drives that Trump voter? Do 444 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: you get the forty percent of the country that doesn't 445 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: have four hundred dollars cash available that that's looking to 446 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: deliver a fuck you to somebody? And that's what I 447 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: think Trump is. At the end of the day, He's 448 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: the lowest conceivable bar that's ever been because the only 449 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: expectation that people have of the guy, of his supporters 450 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: is that he's going to say fuck you to someone 451 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: for them. But do you understand or have a theory 452 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: on why so many people want that fuck you delivered? 453 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: And I think that's exactly what it is. I'm not 454 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: trying to be gratuitous with with the with the language. 455 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 1: It is. There is a seething anger, certainly stoked by 456 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: a billion dollar rage and anger industry, but the but 457 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 1: the anger is real, no matter how it's, how how 458 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: it's come to be, how justify it is. And so 459 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: I I wanted to ask you about that and really 460 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: hear what you think about as a as a political leader. 461 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: Is someone that I look at with with tremendous promise 462 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: as a political leader. What are we going to do 463 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: about that? 464 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: Well, you just you raise two very important issues, and 465 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 2: just to address the first part of of what you said, 466 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 2: because I think this is really important to discuss. I 467 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 2: don't think there's any question that Joe Biden's best chance 468 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 2: of winning the next election is against Donald Trump. And 469 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 2: I think it would be horrible for the country for 470 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,720 Speaker 2: Donald Trump to be the Republican nominee. We need to 471 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: stamp out this authoritarian, anti democratic demagogue man get back 472 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 2: to focusing on conversations that are about the country's interest 473 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 2: and that is not what Donald Trump is. And so 474 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 2: I am willing to accept that my party has less 475 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: of a chance to be in the White House in 476 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 2: order to make sure that someone as corrupt as both 477 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 2: morally and otherwise, someone as narcissistic and focused exclusively on himself, 478 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 2: someone who has turned upside down our foreign policy and 479 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 2: our broader approach to democracy, should not be able to 480 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 2: reach anyone in this country, because even if he loses 481 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 2: his rhetoric, his views still are in the blood system 482 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 2: of this country, and we need to eliminate that. Someone 483 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 2: once said to me and I think this is a 484 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 2: good choice. If would you want Adolf Hitler on the ballot, 485 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 2: if that meant that you had a better chance of winning, No, 486 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: because the chance that he would become the president is 487 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 2: too great a risk. Whatever it is. So your second point, 488 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: you know, this is something that we Democrats need to 489 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 2: do a lot more meaningful analysis, because I don't think 490 00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: it's as simple as just saying they don't the Trump 491 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 2: supporters just don't know what they're doing. That's not fair, 492 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,240 Speaker 2: that's not respectful, and that I don't think that's helpful. 493 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 2: I think the reality is that there are a lot 494 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 2: of people in this country who have felt like, and 495 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 2: this has increased over time, that the government does not 496 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 2: work for them, government works for either themselves or the elite, 497 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 2: so to speak, and that they're not at the table 498 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 2: for the conversations, that people don't care about them, people 499 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 2: are not identifying or interested in what matters to them. 500 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 2: And then there's also this feeling among many in our 501 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 2: country where they're feeling like they are getting overtaken by 502 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 2: external forces that they can't control. And what I think 503 00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 2: Donald Trump has done very successfully is he's tapped in 504 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 2: to that disengagement and that disillusionment, and he's provided people 505 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 2: with something very different to see as part of our government, 506 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 2: and a frankness and candor that many might find repulsive 507 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 2: and appropriate, but speaks to I think a general view 508 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 2: of a general view that you know, we ought to 509 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 2: be able to speak our mind a little bit more, 510 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 2: and that he represents someone who, as you point out, 511 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 2: will stand up to the establishment, is not going to 512 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: cave to special interests or is not just interested in, 513 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,439 Speaker 2: you know, those those around him. Somehow he has even 514 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 2: though I think he is, but he has convinced people 515 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 2: through his populism that he is there for him and 516 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 2: you know so, I think there are examples of this 517 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 2: throughout history, and one that is really worth focusing on 518 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 2: is that there was previously an America First movement in 519 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 2: the United States. There was in the nineteen thirties and 520 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 2: it has eeries similarities to what is going on right now. 521 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 2: They actually were able to infiltrate Congress, and I think 522 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 2: Rachel Maddow's podcast on this called Ultra really was fantastic. 523 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 2: But this is an authoritarian playbook that he is running, 524 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 2: and it can be and historically has been very effective, 525 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 2: and part of what we need to do is we 526 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 2: need to reach out to many of these disillusioned folks 527 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 2: and talk about policies, ideas, understand what their concerns are, 528 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 2: and directly address them. And that's something that we have 529 00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 2: talked a lot about here in Congress. 530 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: You know, the story's documented in the Ken Burns documentary 531 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 1: about the Holocaust, but you know, Charles Limberg was Franklin 532 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: Roosevelt's principal antagonist through nineteen thirty nine nineteen forty the 533 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: movement came within one vote in Congress of upending the draft, 534 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: of canceling the draft. The country would have been horribly 535 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: unprepared for the war that was certainly coming. A Madison 536 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 1: Square garden, as you know, filled to the rafters with 537 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: swastika Leiden, George Washington banners, the German American boond you 538 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: have George Wallace in nineteen seventy two, nineteen seventy six. 539 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: So this strain has always been there and it is 540 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: asserting itself, manifesting itself. I have said and predicted that 541 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: I think that Tim Scott is going to be soaring 542 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: past Ron dessent this into the second seed position. Uh, 543 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,800 Speaker 1: probably by July fourth, but we'll We'll see how that goes. 544 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: I just I wanted to ask you real quickly about 545 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: George Santos, fellow New York member member of Congress. What 546 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: what is the reaction to his presence in the chamber? 547 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: I imagine, knowing your your background, that that seeing him 548 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: must raise your blood pressure significantly to to say, to 549 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: say the least. And I'm curious behind the scenes, what 550 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: what do people say about him? What do what do 551 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: your Republican colleagues say about him? Are they ashamed? Are 552 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: they embarrassed? Or they disgusted? What? What? What is the 553 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: hesitation to expel the guy? Is there is there? Is it? 554 00:41:54,160 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: Is it the collapse of any standard whatsoever in this era? 555 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly what I said. Power is all that matters 556 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,240 Speaker 2: to this Republican party. It is the only thing that matters. 557 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 2: And when you see them willing to protect George Santos 558 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 2: in order to preserve an extra Republican vote in a 559 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,320 Speaker 2: very narrow majority that they have, it tells you everything 560 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 2: you need to know. This is a guy who not 561 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 2: only lied about his resume, his background, his employment is, 562 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 2: you know, a variety of things, and now has been 563 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 2: charged for lying on his campaign finance disclosures, and I 564 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 2: think there will be more that comes out about his 565 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:44,439 Speaker 2: campaign finances that is right for criminal prosecution. But he 566 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 2: used lies about nine to eleven about the Holocaust, about 567 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 2: the Pulse nightclub shooting, which is the worst LGBTQ mass 568 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,760 Speaker 2: shooting in our history. He is a depraved individual who 569 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,360 Speaker 2: literally took three of the most tragic events in the 570 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 2: last hundred years and used them for his lied about 571 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 2: them for his personal benefits so he could deceive his 572 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 2: voters and get into Congress and walk the halls. And 573 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 2: it is whether it's criminal or not, it is despicable 574 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,720 Speaker 2: and depraved, and it burns me up as someone who 575 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 2: does really care about restoring the integrity to Congress and 576 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 2: the reputation of Congress, because we do need to get 577 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,280 Speaker 2: back to being a body that focuses on the people 578 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 2: rather than on the individuals who may be here or 579 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 2: our special interests and supporters. And George Santis walking the 580 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 2: same halls that I walk and voting on the same 581 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 2: bills that I walk is it offends me. And I 582 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 2: will say this and this is what is the disconnect 583 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 2: the Republicans I speak to, I think they are ashamed 584 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,800 Speaker 2: that George Santos is there. The problem is their shame 585 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 2: is not enough to motivate them to do anything, and 586 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 2: that is the disconnect. Many of my Republican colleagues, you know, 587 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 2: routinely make jokes about, you know, George Santos was the 588 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 2: first one who arrived on the moon, or you know, 589 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 2: all sorts of mocking of his ridiculous lies, and but 590 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 2: they're they're embarrassed, but they're just not going to do 591 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 2: anything because power is more important. 592 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: Perfect spot to leave it. Thank you very much, Congressman. 593 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 2: Thanks Steve, really good to see you. 594 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 1: Good to see you. Thank care Hey, thank you