Speaker 1: I am Kevin Riley was the president of ENDBC Entertainment
Speaker 1: through the entire first chapter of the American version of
Speaker 1: The Office. Hello peeps, welcome, We're at it again. This
Speaker 1: is The Office deep Dive, and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Brian bond Gartner. Today you will be listening to my
Speaker 1: interview with Kevin Riley. Who's Kevin Riley? Why are you
Speaker 1: interviewing him? I don't even remember his name from the credits. Well,
Speaker 1: that's true, Kevin Riley was not in the credits for
Speaker 1: the show because Kevin Riley was even more powerful than that.
Speaker 1: Kevin Riley was the NBC executive that was responsible for
Speaker 1: bringing The Office to the air. If it were not
Speaker 1: for Kevin Riley, the Office would have been canceled after
Speaker 1: six episodes. Kevin staked his reputation on our show, and
Speaker 1: he fought for us every step of the way. And
Speaker 1: by the way, Kevin is responsible for shows, not just
Speaker 1: The Office. Kevin was a network executive behind such shows
Speaker 1: as Saved by the Bell, e r Law and Freaking Order,
Speaker 1: The Shield, Niptuck Rescue Me. Then after the Office, he
Speaker 1: went on to develop shows like Thirty Rock, Friday Night Lights, Glee,
Speaker 1: New Girl, Bob's Burgers, the Mindy Project. I'm gonna stop,
Speaker 1: But my point is we all owe Kevin a gigantic
Speaker 1: thank you for giving us not just the office but
Speaker 1: also like of our favorite TV shows. So on that note,
Speaker 1: I present to you the Man behind the Curtain, Kevin Riley.
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and squeak, Bubble
Speaker 1: and Squeaker cookie, every moment left over from the nabb before.
Speaker 1: Very great to see you. It's been so long, are
Speaker 1: you Are you putting this whole thing together? I'm putting
Speaker 1: this whole time. I did not know that I love it,
Speaker 1: you know, I just didn't connect. As Ben caught me
Speaker 1: in between meetings and he said of the podcast that
Speaker 1: I realized and then I love that you're doing it.
Speaker 1: It's actually perfect, by the way, I never even connected
Speaker 1: to this moment. You also have like a great podcast
Speaker 1: voice too. You done voice over over there I've done
Speaker 1: more recently. You can get in there and do what
Speaker 1: you need to. No, No, you're fine. I've been told
Speaker 1: this a while and it's my cadence. Most sleep of
Speaker 1: my real book is that I sound like Tom Hanks.
Speaker 1: So there's a no, there's this is actually true. I know,
Speaker 1: I never I've never know, now that you say it, yes,
Speaker 1: I have. That then describes it as um a smoky,
Speaker 1: potentially whiskey laden version of Tom Hanks's voice. Um, but
Speaker 1: I'll take it whatever. Um. So yeah, I mean we've
Speaker 1: it's been amazing. I mean so much that I have learned,
Speaker 1: and you obviously so important, and especially these early years.
Speaker 1: So I want to take you back. So you join
Speaker 1: f X in two thousand and you're there through three
Speaker 1: through two thousand three, right in this actual building, which
Speaker 1: is crazy coming in in this build looking in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this building was a sort of fox outpost. It really,
Speaker 1: it was the New World Television building. It was really
Speaker 1: a crappy building. Yes, in fact, it hasn't been really
Speaker 1: improved that they put a little veneer on it. But
Speaker 1: at the time, I mean, my rug, I had left
Speaker 1: these beautiful offices in my previous job. My my, my
Speaker 1: rug had a giant stain in the middle. It was
Speaker 1: literally a hole in the wall in my office. And
Speaker 1: I said to the office manager. She said, hey, anything,
Speaker 1: we can do whatever you need, just let me know
Speaker 1: and we'll get it for you. And they said, you know,
Speaker 1: you think I get two chairs that match and she said, no,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we can't do that. That's where it was.
Speaker 1: But then things really took off. Yea, um, so Ben
Speaker 1: was telling me that you had well. Nick grab was
Speaker 1: your development executives and he apparently was a big fan
Speaker 1: of the British version of the Office. And now when
Speaker 1: did you become aware of the British version of the office.
Speaker 1: I had heard of it, But Nick has always had
Speaker 1: a good nose for sort of what's next. He was
Speaker 1: the guy always looked to like is this sound cool? Yeah, okay, great,
Speaker 1: I think it's cool too, you know. And so it
Speaker 1: was one of those where I had kind of heard
Speaker 1: about it, like yeah, I thought this, I think this
Speaker 1: thing is something. And he came seeing it and talking
Speaker 1: to Bed we can get it, and it's we gotta
Speaker 1: have it. And now did you meet with Ben while
Speaker 1: you were at f X. No, we never did. Really.
Speaker 1: What it was is I was in the middle of
Speaker 1: that transition where it was three magical years of f
Speaker 1: X with a lot of things happening. This is on
Speaker 1: the heels of winning all awards with the Shield and
Speaker 1: Niptuck and Rescue Me was being cast and Russo's first
Speaker 1: project Lucky was here and it was just a lot happening,
Speaker 1: and this would have tucked right in, so it was
Speaker 1: a perfect effect show. But my contract was up. I
Speaker 1: was in the middle of a lot of negotiations and
Speaker 1: it looked like I'm going back to NBC at this point.
Speaker 1: And that's when I start talking to Ben because I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, look, I'm not maybe not staying it, but
Speaker 1: if I go, I'd like to take this with me
Speaker 1: out the door. And you know, wisely, I think Ben
Speaker 1: smelled the opportunity would have made a great effect show,
Speaker 1: but just from a value perspective, I think he was like, well,
Speaker 1: that's that's better. So we kind of then went quiet
Speaker 1: on it and just sort of sat on it. Okay,
Speaker 1: So then he started meeting with you once you had gone,
Speaker 1: uh to NBC. Yeah, we had kind of wink winked
Speaker 1: like I'll see you over there. But at that point
Speaker 1: then it picked up momentum. I was going that happened
Speaker 1: pretty quick, and we need to take it over to him.
Speaker 1: And you made a deal there, so you pick up
Speaker 1: the pilot. Now you've got to find somebody to run it,
Speaker 1: and you start meeting with with show runners to run it.
Speaker 1: What were your initial instincts about Greg? Well, Greg, he
Speaker 1: certainly from the get go had my respect. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's known as a very thorough for a couple of things.
Speaker 1: Number one, all those years on King of the Hill, Yes,
Speaker 1: which was a show I loved, and I know Greg
Speaker 1: from everybody I knew respect it said Greg was the
Speaker 1: real deal. And then secondly Conan, who I now subsequently
Speaker 1: have gotten you know, known for decades at this point.
Speaker 1: But I knew that they had come up together and
Speaker 1: we're both close college friends and had comedy background together,
Speaker 1: and I just so I don't think we really ever
Speaker 1: that wasn't really ever sell for me. Yeah, I wondered
Speaker 1: if because he hadn't come from you know, live action scripted,
Speaker 1: if there was any concern about that, or you just
Speaker 1: met with him and you knew, as most people do
Speaker 1: who meet Greg that you know. Yeah, it's just that
Speaker 1: quiet confidence, you know, where you know when he says
Speaker 1: things like the same show with ten percent, hope you're okay,
Speaker 1: I think we're I think we're good to go here.
Speaker 1: That like mad like that, not a professor, but a genius. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, but early on, when you're trying
Speaker 1: to have this give and take conversation. You know, Greg
Speaker 1: is a man of few words and sometimes you know,
Speaker 1: kind of just sort of drifts off all together and
Speaker 1: you and we kind of left haging there. Okay, So
Speaker 1: early on it took me a while to get the
Speaker 1: rhythm of you know, he's not a guy where you're
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, hitting it back all over the
Speaker 1: net with some top spin on it. Like I think
Speaker 1: Greig got that. How involved were you specifically, obviously you
Speaker 1: had final say, but in in the casting, how involved
Speaker 1: were you and choosing the people? Well, the casting is
Speaker 1: something you ultimately have approval over at the network because
Speaker 1: it's it's really everything at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: I mean, you got to get the script right. But
Speaker 1: the script right, with the wrong casting, you know, you're
Speaker 1: you're dead, especially in comedy. And this was a in
Speaker 1: some ways of fantasy casting process because first of all,
Speaker 1: we were out of cycle, you know, so we didn't
Speaker 1: have to do this in the shotgun old pilot season
Speaker 1: lock and load. You know, you've got five minutes to
Speaker 1: cast it. We had months and months to do it.
Speaker 1: And I have to say, I don't know how many
Speaker 1: they went through. I was never privy to how many
Speaker 1: came in, but all I know is, you know, the
Speaker 1: trickiest one obviously was Michael, and it came down to
Speaker 1: Bob Oton kirk uh and who's the that we end
Speaker 1: up casting in? What was this? CORRELLI? Yeah, how did
Speaker 1: that work out? And so, you know, and I'd known
Speaker 1: Bob back from the Mr. Show days my former company
Speaker 1: H brill Stein Entertainment. We produced Mr. Show. And you know,
Speaker 1: I thought Bob was a major talent, and by the way,
Speaker 1: I had a great take on the character, a different one.
Speaker 1: So my involvement is I saw every audition for every
Speaker 1: character and they were just fantastic. You know. By the
Speaker 1: sometimes this process can be really a struggle. You know,
Speaker 1: someone who brings it in and they go we found
Speaker 1: the guy, and you look at it and you go,
Speaker 1: this is this the guy you're talking about? All right? Boy,
Speaker 1: I am just not seeing it. We had none of those.
Speaker 1: I mean every time I was like, well, that's the guy.
Speaker 1: Then Jennet came in, Oh my god, that's her, and
Speaker 1: it was just right from the get go. I think
Speaker 1: everybody just made decisions and had a nudget in their
Speaker 1: own direction and it was a blast. And then guys
Speaker 1: like you, you know, who were just coming out of
Speaker 1: nowhere where wait, wait, where this guy come from? This
Speaker 1: is fantastic. How on board were you with the idea
Speaker 1: of total unknowns? I mean Steve had you know, had
Speaker 1: Bruce Almighty? I had no, Well, he like Steve. I
Speaker 1: had done multiple busted pilots with Steve and several bad
Speaker 1: series that he had co starred in or been in.
Speaker 1: He was always funny, and this goes back to the
Speaker 1: Dana Carvey Show with he Colbert and I mean it
Speaker 1: was it's got It's got its own little weird cult.
Speaker 1: Following there was like a Netflix special about it, and
Speaker 1: at that time I was like, Wow, that guy Corrill
Speaker 1: is funny and he was always good. But it was
Speaker 1: always good in a bad thing, you know, or something
Speaker 1: that was okay but didn't take off. Actually, during the
Speaker 1: casting process when we were considering Steve, Stacy Snyder called
Speaker 1: me up. Was running Universal Pictures at the time, and
Speaker 1: that was our sister company. The feature side. He was
Speaker 1: doing forty year Old Virgin and she said, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: send you some dailies. You should see them. And I
Speaker 1: was like, wow, this is a whole another gear for
Speaker 1: this guy. And I don't want to say that was
Speaker 1: what sealed because, by the way, at that point, who
Speaker 1: knows what that movie is getting. It's not like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's already a star, we'll just plug him in. And
Speaker 1: then it was just one of those kids met kind
Speaker 1: of things where it was just the right move. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you meet Greg, all these cast members, it gets
Speaker 1: picked up to a pilot. How has that received at NBC?
Speaker 1: It wasn't you know, it wasn't shown widely. Um. David
Speaker 1: Kissinger was running the studio at the time, was also
Speaker 1: really an advocate and passionate for this, and he was
Speaker 1: a co conspirator with me, but it was still delivered
Speaker 1: it to me, and I would just say it was
Speaker 1: very slow. I was like, Okay, I can see the
Speaker 1: show in there, but but man, we are defying people's
Speaker 1: patients here. Like editorially, it needed a lot of sculpting.
Speaker 1: You could see the comedy, you could see the characters.
Speaker 1: That was not a concern. Those are one of the
Speaker 1: big eases. Oh no, we've got wrong people, or this
Speaker 1: guy is not delivering she's terrible. No, that was not
Speaker 1: the issue. What was working. What was working, But you
Speaker 1: know that narrative was sort of going. And I would
Speaker 1: say one of the biggest things I had to work
Speaker 1: with Greg on is was just looking in network television.
Speaker 1: You had to get through act breaks, you had to
Speaker 1: go sell toothpaste in the middle, and so I'd say, like,
Speaker 1: you know, Greg, we just sort of trail off here
Speaker 1: on these act breaks, and you know, we lose the
Speaker 1: narrative thread and that's kind of fun, but we gotta
Speaker 1: we gotta sculptu. I think Greg went back and this
Speaker 1: is really, I think where we've forged Dart relationship, because
Speaker 1: it could have been brutal, and at least I thought
Speaker 1: it was a creatively fun thing. I think he did
Speaker 1: four team cuts of the pilot. It may have been sixteen,
Speaker 1: you'd have to ask Greg, but it was double digits
Speaker 1: and really, really, and that's where I saw really his
Speaker 1: true gift that he could find find it and he
Speaker 1: knew where it was and he could hunt for it
Speaker 1: in everyone. It was just Sharper and Sharper and Sharper,
Speaker 1: and you could I could just see it, right, Yeah, wow,
Speaker 1: And so they that we had time again, had this
Speaker 1: been done in pilot season, these are the vagaries of
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Had this been done, even with my
Speaker 1: support and love. Had we had only the time, had
Speaker 1: this been the usual way pilot season was down, You
Speaker 1: shot in sometime April, you had a sometimes days to editive,
Speaker 1: not weeks, because you had to go deliver it and
Speaker 1: test it and do this thing and then boom and
Speaker 1: then screen it. You know, sometimes many of these pilots
Speaker 1: are screened off of two cuts. If we had done
Speaker 1: that dead Dead again, I loved it, and I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: when this names work and we had time to do
Speaker 1: the work. So now we were sitting the other part
Speaker 1: when you were playing the system was you didn't want
Speaker 1: to be into early. You want to hit a sweet
Speaker 1: spot when they're dying to see something new and maybe
Speaker 1: you've got a shot just psychically, oh here's something. We
Speaker 1: could be the next thing, and you kind of get
Speaker 1: in there and you don't want to be the leading edge.
Speaker 1: You don't want to be the last one. And this
Speaker 1: thing just sat and sat and sad, sad, and as
Speaker 1: it got exposed through the system, let's just say there
Speaker 1: the system wasn't overly responsive. Yeah, I mean, look the
Speaker 1: network at that point, had you know I had started
Speaker 1: my career at NBC, I was there for six of
Speaker 1: the great years coming up, the heyday of NBC, the
Speaker 1: great and great things we're in a tart to cover
Speaker 1: in the network. I remember looking at his office and
Speaker 1: at some point it done to me, I don't wonder
Speaker 1: if I could ever have that job. And now I
Speaker 1: came back and got his job and was sitting in
Speaker 1: in his office and literally, you know, I closed the
Speaker 1: door and I had a moment. I looked up and
Speaker 1: I I felt so great and about and just amazing.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting literally at Brandon's desk, looking at the monitors
Speaker 1: on the wall, and then I had this sinking feeling
Speaker 1: that I made a horrible, horrible mistake, which it was
Speaker 1: because the wheels were coming off the momentum. It turn.
Speaker 1: I came in telling everybody we need a new breath
Speaker 1: of fresh air, and this place is in trouble. And
Speaker 1: after decades of winning, a lot of the ethos inside
Speaker 1: the building was we know what we're doing, and it
Speaker 1: was a little like who is this guy? And I
Speaker 1: also didn't learn the concept of corporate buy in. You know,
Speaker 1: when you come into a company really anywhere, you know
Speaker 1: it's not a new different on a team. You know,
Speaker 1: if a coach takes over team. You gotta win over
Speaker 1: people's comments like all right, we'll follow you, we'll listen.
Speaker 1: You can't just come in now. Once people are bottomed
Speaker 1: out and are desperate, you got a shot. But until
Speaker 1: that happens. And so I came in thinking things like
Speaker 1: the office, like this is exactly what we need to do,
Speaker 1: and just a lot of people were like, no, no,
Speaker 1: we need the next version of that's sexy single girl
Speaker 1: in New York who's lives with some friends, and they're like, no, no,
Speaker 1: we really don't. There was still this sort of thing
Speaker 1: that lived on in the building post friends of you know, no, no,
Speaker 1: we want funny, but they're gonna be sexy too, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, we need that, And that had just made
Speaker 1: its way into comedy, which was never part of comedy,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean comedy was like funny period. And
Speaker 1: uh so that was still a little bit in the
Speaker 1: wind of like wait a manune, this is a group
Speaker 1: of misfits. So this kind of just seemed like the
Speaker 1: opposite of at least what everyone thought we needed. Right, well,
Speaker 1: I it's so fascinating the idea of we had this opportunity,
Speaker 1: we were handed this jewel this great idea, this show
Speaker 1: from London, and everybody just kind of wanted to do
Speaker 1: the best that we could, to do something different, which
Speaker 1: is what you're talking about. You're up against this old
Speaker 1: guard and and people who have done it in a
Speaker 1: certain way. And Greg was saying, no, we're gonna have writers.
Speaker 1: We're gonna have writers act in the show right now.
Speaker 1: We're gonna not have a wall that we can move
Speaker 1: because we're a documentary, right and we're going to hire
Speaker 1: actors that are not that are me unknown. Even the
Speaker 1: stupid debates over the Doctor, I had to listen to
Speaker 1: opinions of people saying, you know, Americans associate documentaries with
Speaker 1: heaviness and non commercial. It's just an obstructive format to
Speaker 1: most Americans, and you're doing a comedy through that format
Speaker 1: by its nature. And I'm just listening, Oh my god, really,
Speaker 1: and I'm some of these people they were professionals, but
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking, what do you know? And what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? Right? But how confident were you that
Speaker 1: it could translate to a broadcast audience because yeah, at
Speaker 1: the time, single camera, mock documentary, no laugh track, nothing
Speaker 1: like that was on network Talible. Yeah, what I felt
Speaker 1: all along for a minute. One is an office comedy
Speaker 1: is a staple of television, So yeah, the form is different,
Speaker 1: the tone is certainly different. The leads attitude is really different.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, you're not gonna
Speaker 1: look at going I don't understand what what is it?
Speaker 1: They're in an office and I always clung to that
Speaker 1: all the way through. But that it's just one of
Speaker 1: the things I just loved about it. I love the
Speaker 1: outpost in the middle of nowhere. I love the the
Speaker 1: boss who's in this island, who is free to just
Speaker 1: run rough shot over everybody, And uh, Jim, I can't
Speaker 1: remember the exact line. Maybe you do in the pilot,
Speaker 1: you know where they say, you know, describe what you
Speaker 1: do and he's like, well, what's paper products and processing?
Speaker 1: And we moved the skids into thing And I'm just
Speaker 1: I'm boring myself out. Is that for me embodied the
Speaker 1: whole show, you know, like, wait, we don't actually even
Speaker 1: know why we come to work or what we really
Speaker 1: accomplished every day, right right? So I was told it
Speaker 1: was the worst testing show in the history of NBC.
Speaker 1: I don't know it was the worst testing, but it was.
Speaker 1: It was bad. The worst testing that maybe made it.
Speaker 1: It was certainly in that pack, I mean, of the
Speaker 1: ones that made it. It was it was really down there, right,
Speaker 1: So what was the idea behind giving five more episodes? Like?
Speaker 1: Did you have to fight to get those five? Yeah?
Speaker 1: First of all, and at this point two things happened
Speaker 1: through the course of the show for me, and I'll
Speaker 1: give you this the first part. At this point, I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: I really think the rebuild of NBC is going to happen,
Speaker 1: and this is going to be one of those pieces.
Speaker 1: And I looked at the rest of the platiff stuff
Speaker 1: we had, which was ship So it's not like I go, Wow,
Speaker 1: I got ten other great things. I just said, look,
Speaker 1: this is going to be a slog, but this is good.
Speaker 1: This is just good, and we're gonna go with We're
Speaker 1: gonna start with greatness. And first of all, I have
Speaker 1: noted this before, but for the way the stupid pilot
Speaker 1: screening process used to work at these broadcasts at works
Speaker 1: was everybody would fly out, and the East Coast guys
Speaker 1: and the heads of sports and the heads of affiliate
Speaker 1: relations and sales and research and all the all the
Speaker 1: middle aged white guys would fly out and sit in
Speaker 1: the room and you know, tell stories, and then you'd
Speaker 1: rotate around and screen all the pilots, and people would
Speaker 1: rank them and put numbers on them, and then you'd
Speaker 1: come in and debate and decide, and you'd have to
Speaker 1: kind of hear all of that. Now, when things are
Speaker 1: going well and you have a hot hand of the
Speaker 1: present entertainment, you go through that process, but they are
Speaker 1: either not pushing back on you, or you have the
Speaker 1: ability to go, well, that's great, Brian, thanks, thanks for that.
Speaker 1: That's fantastic input, and then just go ignore it. But
Speaker 1: when the network starts to get on wobbly legs and
Speaker 1: I had not again established credibility, people knew me, they
Speaker 1: liked me, they're recruited me for the job. But at
Speaker 1: this point I seem to be now uh, advocating for
Speaker 1: things that don't look like what they're supposed to look like.
Speaker 1: And this is identified as a problem early on, and
Speaker 1: so that gave other players more power to come up
Speaker 1: and say, let me tell you why this isn't gonna work,
Speaker 1: and then they had the research. Now, so we come
Speaker 1: out of this pilot screening process and every room is
Speaker 1: giving it. You know, ten is the best zero, we're
Speaker 1: going to give it a point five, you know, or
Speaker 1: or one. You know. Well, nobody likes it except one room.
Speaker 1: I go down, and honestly, it was the only room
Speaker 1: I was interested in. The room filled with the assistance
Speaker 1: and the associates and all the young people, and that
Speaker 1: was the biggest rumor. Actually they were at like forty
Speaker 1: people in there, and I go in and they said,
Speaker 1: what do you guys think? And I remember they take
Speaker 1: away is this not only is this the best thing
Speaker 1: we've done, it's the only thing we would watch that
Speaker 1: you're making, and it's kind of the only thing we'd
Speaker 1: watch and what's currently on the air. And I was like,
Speaker 1: thank you very much, that's all I need to know. Wow,
Speaker 1: And like unequivocally that room was we are in even
Speaker 1: with the first pilot, still hadn't It hadn't even become
Speaker 1: the show it was. They just could they were it,
Speaker 1: and I knew it was going to be the young
Speaker 1: audience that we're going to cling to, but that meant
Speaker 1: nothing still in selling it. It still wasn't the five
Speaker 1: episodes order. And also Greg, look, Greg had made some
Speaker 1: money on King of the Hill, so he was willing
Speaker 1: if he had if he had fought and said I
Speaker 1: want to he he cut his rate. He was willing
Speaker 1: to take the shorter order. He could have stood on
Speaker 1: principle and said I'm not doing it. I'm not doing
Speaker 1: six and you know, I'm on a d cents on
Speaker 1: the dollar and that, and then it would have been dead.
Speaker 1: But he he loved it, and he was willing to
Speaker 1: take the short And that's really basically all I could
Speaker 1: cobble out was that initial six episode mid season order, right,
Speaker 1: I love that story. And and a side note, I'm
Speaker 1: sure you don't know this, but like on the set,
Speaker 1: I was the I was kind of the business. Like
Speaker 1: the business of television really interested me. So we aired
Speaker 1: on Thursday nights or whatever, and we would be in
Speaker 1: the makeup trailer and I would be going through the
Speaker 1: numbers and and giving perspective as to why the numbers
Speaker 1: might be where they are, how they were related the
Speaker 1: night before. But March Madness is on right now, so
Speaker 1: it's going to be like that was just that was
Speaker 1: what interested me so well. There certainly wasn't a lot
Speaker 1: of good news in those numbers. There were those first
Speaker 1: six episodes. It First of all, the network had very
Speaker 1: little momentum. You know, if this were still the days
Speaker 1: where we had big shows, we could have parked it
Speaker 1: in between. It might have been protected. But at this
Speaker 1: point in mid season the network kind of went from
Speaker 1: bad to worse. During the year, we were beginning to
Speaker 1: just grind down. Uh that by the by marches, like
Speaker 1: people a kind of established what they're liking and not liking,
Speaker 1: and we bring the show on and it premier. There
Speaker 1: were definitely there were reviewers that liked it that I
Speaker 1: claimed I I will say Bill Carter from New York
Speaker 1: Times from minute one. Bill Carter said, this is the
Speaker 1: best show I've seen in years, and I love it
Speaker 1: and I'm in And he was a huge advocate for you.
Speaker 1: Do you think that there was any impact so after
Speaker 1: the initial six that were given originally, now the ratings
Speaker 1: were better. That second year we had My name is
Speaker 1: earle Yes. That show ended up because that show came
Speaker 1: out hot, we tucked it in behind I remember, and
Speaker 1: it was around Christmas time. I literally was like a
Speaker 1: Christmas gift to me where and you know, we had
Speaker 1: done the deal with Apple if you remember, early on
Speaker 1: the early iPhone ads or iTunes ads rather featured it
Speaker 1: in the stores, and then Steve had had the movie
Speaker 1: it hit, So I'm saying, wait, wait a minute, here,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, we're getting a little Steve's now becoming
Speaker 1: a thing. And look at that where iTunes is going
Speaker 1: to be a thing, and we're they like us, and
Speaker 1: we're starting to get little pockets of support and people
Speaker 1: are starting to talk about it. And I remember waking
Speaker 1: up and at this point, I'm really beginning to be
Speaker 1: on the ropes. And I wake up one morning in
Speaker 1: like um going into the holidays, and the show actually grew,
Speaker 1: It actually grew, and its stabilized. It was a respectable rating,
Speaker 1: and I honestly, I think I don't admit it, but
Speaker 1: I might have teared up. I mean I really might
Speaker 1: have teared up. Right well, we were certainly at the time,
Speaker 1: I mean when we was sort of like this this
Speaker 1: confluence of events, as you said, with forty year old
Speaker 1: virgin Um. Suddenly there's Apple stores and our pictures are
Speaker 1: are on these new things called, you know, the iPod video,
Speaker 1: and we're suddenly the number one show on iTunes. I
Speaker 1: feel like from the beginning you had the foresight that
Speaker 1: you know, the way that that ratings happened with the
Speaker 1: Nielsen boxes. They're looking at households. No one's looking at colleges,
Speaker 1: no one's looking at dorms in college. There was the
Speaker 1: larger thing of what I felt culturally is it was
Speaker 1: the canary in the coal mine for where we are today. Look,
Speaker 1: there's always been a generational turning of the page where
Speaker 1: you know, the young people are want the next thing.
Speaker 1: I could see that happening, which is the sensibility. But
Speaker 1: then something that really the powers that we were passing
Speaker 1: by is the platform itself, the viewing experience itself. It
Speaker 1: ended up being a really smart thing, like, you know what,
Speaker 1: let's get out in front with this thing that seems
Speaker 1: to be where it's headed, and that's where young people
Speaker 1: wanted to see it. Well, also that you put it
Speaker 1: on my Space the week before it premiered, like you
Speaker 1: were already using whatever platform we could get it out
Speaker 1: on and just or you know, either legally or illegally.
Speaker 1: I don't even know where it was getting passed around,
Speaker 1: but it was clear something was happening. Right. Um, So
Speaker 1: you talk about iTunes, you know, the video iPod on
Speaker 1: this Christmas episode and it's the first one that goes
Speaker 1: over ten million. There was something else that happened during
Speaker 1: this time. The webisodes, the original online content on NBC. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and again we these were early days of you know,
Speaker 1: this webisode thing was starting to bubble up, and some
Speaker 1: shows were doing them mostly really pretty lame, to be honest,
Speaker 1: But then ours actually weren't lame, right. We did the
Speaker 1: The Accountants, which was Oscar and Angela and um and
Speaker 1: they were becoming a thing and ended up winning and yeah,
Speaker 1: which was that was another amazing thing, and so that
Speaker 1: this kind of content wasn't crappy ancillary thing. In fact,
Speaker 1: Greg would have now never allowed it to happen because
Speaker 1: he just wouldn't. He just wouldn't endorse that. But the
Speaker 1: fact that you're like, wow, these things are really good
Speaker 1: and people love these and it's becoming a way to
Speaker 1: stay attached to that, and I just I couldn't nobody
Speaker 1: could have really predicted that the changes that ultimately came.
Speaker 1: The weird thing for me having been at NBC and
Speaker 1: good go back, in my heart of hearts, I still
Speaker 1: believed and it is you know NBC, I mean network television.
Speaker 1: The year I started in it came or came out
Speaker 1: here to get into show. If You Go Back was
Speaker 1: the first year that the Wall Street analysts were beginning
Speaker 1: to declare network television the dinosaur. So it's death had
Speaker 1: been premier for you because cable was statistically on the rise. Now,
Speaker 1: obviously decades and decades and decades of billions of dollars
Speaker 1: and tremendous cultural impact was created. So I still believed
Speaker 1: that this platform of NBC, which it did, was still
Speaker 1: a great place to nurture incredible television. With that said,
Speaker 1: I think the powers that were there still were believing
Speaker 1: that it was just one show away from coming back.
Speaker 1: And in my heart, I said, guys, it's never coming back.
Speaker 1: That was the thing that I knew. It is never
Speaker 1: going to be what it was, and you have to
Speaker 1: find what that new thing is, and this show is
Speaker 1: built for that. Whatever that new thing is, this show
Speaker 1: is built for that. But even the tone, the scrappy,
Speaker 1: kind of like bleak looking doc you that tone allowed
Speaker 1: you to then make a webisode out of it. Some
Speaker 1: shows you in a webisode you're like, well, that's not
Speaker 1: the drama I watched, and that's so that's a really cheap,
Speaker 1: bad version. Well this just felt very organic that like,
Speaker 1: well we make it the same way we make the
Speaker 1: show right right, right right, and that felt very viral
Speaker 1: and very you know of the web. And again we
Speaker 1: were just fumbling our way through. But you got the
Speaker 1: young audience, they just knew it and caught on. And
Speaker 1: so that's why it thrived, and that's what ultimately the
Speaker 1: culture and the landscape has caught up for this thing
Speaker 1: to then just have this next surge of life. So
Speaker 1: you were talking about, I'm gonna show you a picture
Speaker 1: from August September of two thousand and six. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: have the picture of my office. Yeah, and it's a
Speaker 1: picture of Kevin being picked up by Rain and John
Speaker 1: Um and the look on your face and us winning
Speaker 1: the Primetime Emmy for Best Comedy. Oh my god, what
Speaker 1: a night, huh And what a night and just your
Speaker 1: courage too to have stuck with the show and getting
Speaker 1: recognized now for that must have been pretty special. Amazing.
Speaker 1: You know that that that expression on my face is
Speaker 1: for me because I did ultimately get fired, so did
Speaker 1: save my job. But I will say that it Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I got into this business all I ever
Speaker 1: want to do as a kid. I no idea what
Speaker 1: it was. I didn't even know how to get in.
Speaker 1: I didn't even know what I wanted to do. But
Speaker 1: those are the kind of moments that are rare where
Speaker 1: you're going, we're doing good work with good people, and
Speaker 1: they're all doing it for the right reasons, and you know,
Speaker 1: the like defying the odds and then having that moment
Speaker 1: of recognition with people who are also then so gracious. Look,
Speaker 1: I've worked with really talented people who some people are
Speaker 1: really talent, they're not so great to crazy and this
Speaker 1: was just a really special thing. You know that. The
Speaker 1: tricky thing about Joe business is a lot of times, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to meet your heroes because
Speaker 1: what goes on behind the cameras is not really what
Speaker 1: you pictured that group of people to be. In this case,
Speaker 1: I think it really was, you know. I mean, for
Speaker 1: the most part, I would have to say like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well you the love and respect that everyone who I
Speaker 1: talked to who comes into this room for you and
Speaker 1: your fight to keep it on the air, and we
Speaker 1: all believe being responsible for us having done over two
Speaker 1: d episodes, that's a legacy. I think that. Well, well
Speaker 1: it's so it's you know, life is full of ironies,
Speaker 1: you know, and um, I was always proud of it.
Speaker 1: It did go on to stay on the air, but
Speaker 1: NBC then, you know, they had then invited me to
Speaker 1: no longer do that job. And uh, you know, there
Speaker 1: were crop of shows I put on that I was
Speaker 1: proud of. You know, the thirty Rocks and Front Night
Speaker 1: Lights were on there. Here's we had a crop of
Speaker 1: good shows that kind of for the next ten years.
Speaker 1: You know, this is the thing about The Office, you know,
Speaker 1: the show that that you know was going to be
Speaker 1: a real problem was one of the only things that
Speaker 1: endured that was worth hanging onto through that really brutal
Speaker 1: time for that organization, and and everyone kind of felt like, wow,
Speaker 1: great run, great show, Let's move on. And then you
Speaker 1: get this crazy moment in time where that Canary in
Speaker 1: the coal Mine really happened, which is the show that
Speaker 1: was ahead of its time with the young people who
Speaker 1: said that's the only thing we're gonna watch. Now there's
Speaker 1: a new platform called subscription video on demand, and it
Speaker 1: finds its way to that platform, and those people are
Speaker 1: now in their forties and there's new people coming up
Speaker 1: discovering it for the first time, and this thing has
Speaker 1: this crazy, way bigger now it wasn't any and I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've heard this figure, um, something like
Speaker 1: fifty two point three billion with a B minutes streamed
Speaker 1: on Netflix alone and by pretty much any metric that
Speaker 1: I can figure out, the most watch show in television
Speaker 1: right now, and we haven't filmed in five to six.
Speaker 1: Finally finally won the title, right, it's crazy. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: finally ended up in the place where it was kind
Speaker 1: of meant to be. All along, Kevin, Thank you again.
Speaker 1: It's so good to see. It's great city crossed me.
Speaker 1: I could I could do two more hours. Oh well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Alright, guys, sadly we have to
Speaker 1: say goodbye to Kevin because he has to get back
Speaker 1: to I don't know, saving the next best show on
Speaker 1: television probably Now I have to tell you this. I
Speaker 1: wanted to wait till the end. I had not seen
Speaker 1: Kevin Riley in many, many years when he sat down
Speaker 1: with me to do this interview, and I wasn't sure
Speaker 1: how it was going to go, all right. I didn't
Speaker 1: know how willing he would be to talk about the show.
Speaker 1: But at the end I could not have been happier
Speaker 1: and more touched by his openness, his generosity, and his
Speaker 1: willingness truly to go back to that time in his life.
Speaker 1: So thank you, Kevin for taking the time and for
Speaker 1: being so thoughtful. Um I look forward to seeing you
Speaker 1: again very soon. To the rest of you, thank you
Speaker 1: for listening. I appreciate it and we will. Oh. I
Speaker 1: promise you this. We will be back next week. So
Speaker 1: come join me, yeah the Office. Deep Dive is hosted
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive
Speaker 1: producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producer
Speaker 1: is Adam Massias, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and
Speaker 1: our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in
Speaker 1: the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and
Speaker 1: Squeak performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by seth Olandscape