WEBVTT - How Ghost Prisons Work 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.880 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.480 It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:14.680 from House Stuff works dot com. This episode of Stuff 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:16.760 you Should Know is brought to you by Go to Meeting. 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:18.959 We all have to meet, but the average cost of 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.600 a single business trip is one thousand dollars. With just 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:23.959 one click, you can save time and money and have 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.920 your meetings online with affordable and easy to use Go 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.800 to Meeting. Use Go to Meeting for sales, presentations, product demos, 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.360 training sessions, collaborating on documents and more, and at forty 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:37.879 nine per month for unlimited meetings, it saves time, money, 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.760 and travel. Try Go to Meeting free for thirty days. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.000 Visit Go to Meeting dot com slash stuff. That's Go 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:49.040 to Meeting dot com slash stuff. Hey and welcome to 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:53.199 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Across this vast gulf of 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:57.800 a table in our brand new v o C heavy 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:02.240 studio is Charles You, Chuck, Brian, Alright, we're in people. 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:04.720 This is our brand new studio. This is our first 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:06.880 time recording and now it's we gotta get used to 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.959 this weirdness all over again. Know things just can't be normal. 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.120 So now we're in weird chairs and the table is huge, 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:16.959 and Jerry. I can't even talk about Jerry because she's 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.040 not even in the room with us anymore. Wait, Chuck, 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:23.559 did you just pronounced huge with the out the h 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.600 with the H being silent? Did you just say huge? 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:29.240 I've been saying human being and huge ever since I 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:34.000 came back from New York. Huge. Yeah, it's huge, huge. 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:36.760 And Jerry isn't even in our vision line of vision, 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:41.920 and I hate that. Yeah, it's odd. Things are odd. 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:46.040 There's like a burlette curtain. I'm wearing headphones made out 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.200 of old potatoes. Alright, Chuck, let's let's get this going 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:52.840 all right, All right, enough griping from us. No, seriously, 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:57.280 nobody cares. No, one cares. Um. I had like a 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:02.760 great intro to this one. Let's hear it. I can't remember. Oh, yes, Chuck, 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.160 you know that there's a lot of finger pointing about 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.000 how nine eleven was allowed to happen? Right? Uh? Is 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.840 there there? There has been. I don't know if there 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.440 is anymore. But at first there's a lot of finger pointing, 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.160 and a lot of that fell on Clinton. Oh yeah, 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:21.320 because you know, Bush is pretty new. He was a 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.160 He was a newbie still as far as presidents go, 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:27.000 and Clinton had been president for two terms. Blame it 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:31.079 on the previous guy. It's an American tradition, it really is. UM. 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:36.760 But the thing is Clinton's administration, Clintons CIA had passed 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:41.600 along a list of high valued targets of people in 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:46.360 the Alcadda network before the September eleventh attacks ever happened, 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.519 and there was a lot of talk about what to 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:55.320 do with this list of people. UM. After September eleven, 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.840 like you know, say, eleven am on September eleven, the 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.200 talk started about what to do with this list is 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.480 it became clear that this was al Qaeda that had 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.480 carried out this this heinous attack, right, And one of 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.320 the things that we did with it was to publish 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.880 a UM deck of cards. I have that deck? Do 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.440 you really? Yeah? A friend of mine gave me that deck. Yes. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.160 Do you remember that you could get them like a 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:22.399 comedience stores and American public beyond the lookout for these 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:26.359 guys and also enjoy some you know, Texas hold them 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.040 with them as well. And my mine is Camo on 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.280 the other side. That's appropriate, UM, But so there's a 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.040 lot of talk about what to do with this list 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.320 of people. We had their names in a lot of cases, 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:41.960 we knew where they were, and um one of the 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:44.600 one of the ideas that was suggested was to start 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.760 assassinating all of them, and that one was I think 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.880 probably fairly well entertained. But the CIA had been as 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:57.040 far as we know, out of UM practice with assassinations 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:03.080 for a while. UM. So instead we decided to start 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:08.840 UM stepping up a program called Extraordinary Rendition, right right, 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:10.840 which would be a great band name. As soon as 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.360 I heard it. You you think everything is a great 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.560 band name? No, not everyone. Everyone thinks everything is a 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.120 good band name, but not me. Okay, you're you're the 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:21.880 I'm the guy who named his band El Cheapo, So 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.000 I know it's a good one. What was the other one? 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:28.880 A designer kiddy or what? There's another band name recently 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.320 that you liked? Oh I don't know? Okay, Well, anyway, 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.640 this Extraordinary Rendition program actually dated back to UM the 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:43.320 Bush senior presidency. In January, George Herbert Walker Bush UM 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:49.000 signed a Presidential finding authorizing extraordinary rendition, which basically is kidnapping. 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:50.840 Yeah of finding it we should say it's sort of 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.040 like an executive order. It's one of those things that 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.120 a president can just say, make it happen. But it's 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.080 pretty much a secret executive order. I mean, like its 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:02.200 existence can be made public, but its contents aren't. And 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.080 actually the executive order that Um Bush Senior signed um 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.680 allowing or authorizing extraordinary rendition is still classified, right, But 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.520 what we know is that it was used a couple 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.480 of dozen times, largely in the Clinton era, and for 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.360 the most part it was used to go into countries 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.680 that harbor terrorists, kidnapped the terrorists, and then bring them 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.480 to American courts for trial or other places. Well that 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.600 that kind of stepped up after two thousand one, after 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:37.239 after Bush Jr. Came into power. Um the CIA stopped, 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.480 I guess, kind of wanting to put their faith in 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:44.200 American courts and risk the coin toss of of an 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.599 American jury going in favor of a terrorist. So they 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:52.240 started using extraordinary rendition to third party nations. So now 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.800 not only are we kidnapping foreign nationals or kidnapping foreign 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.120 nationals and taking them to other countries that they don't 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:03.240 have an affiliation with so that we can basically outsource torture, interrogation, 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.200 that kind of thing, right, Yeah, And we should point 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.720 out at this point that UM during this kind of rendition, Uh, 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:11.280 this isn't the kind of rendition you want to hear 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.000 if you're a detainee, because it basically means you can't 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:16.280 you don't have a lot of contact with the outside world, 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.159 as in none, you don't have rights to habeas corpus. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.120 You can't call your attorney and say, you know, get 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.520 me out of here on bail. Uh, that kind of thing. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.240 It's very secret you're abducted. I think one of the 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.960 stories you listed was a guy that they set up 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:33.720 a fake fundraiser and invited this guy to it in 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:36.560 order to capture him. Yeah. After after nine eleven, like 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:41.080 the world stage turned into like this um plot exposition 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:45.440 montage from a Mission Impossible movement or a Simpsons episode. Sure, yeah, 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.640 people just started disappearing. Actually, yeah, pretty much. And by 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:54.000 the very socio or the very um geopolitical definition of disappearing, 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:57.720 it was they were kidnapped by a government entity and 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:02.320 kept out of the um perv you, of the courts, 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.680 and stripped of any kind of rights, right, right, So 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.480 the problem is we went from using a couple of 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.280 extraordinary rendition on a couple of dozen people throughout the 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.200 entire nineties to UM by the New York Times estimate 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:22.000 at least three hundred and seven UM between late two 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.360 thousand one and two thousand five. That's probably a very 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:28.920 very low number, right, So we go from a couple 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.600 of dozen in a decade to three hundred and seven 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:36.160 and more in about four years, and we don't exactly 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.720 know where to put these people. The CIA didn't want 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:40.760 to bring them to the US because they didn't want 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.840 them to be prosecuted in American courts. They wanted these 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.960 people to lose all their rights and to disappear so 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.200 that they could be kept for as long as the 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.200 CIA wanted them until they found out what they needed. 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.880 So what they did was set up as a network 0:07:55.920 --> 0:08:00.120 of secret prisons, right, ghost prisons as their call us. 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:04.000 And they're known as ghost prisoners there and they are 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:08.800 the podcast Yeah if only Human Rights Watch, you've heard 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.520 of that group. They have a list on the internets 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:16.440 about a list of ghost prisoners, suspected ghost prisoners, and 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.440 it's very long, and the CIA is always like, we 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.600 don't comment on that. Kind of thing because those lists 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:26.280 are probably not accurate, right that they towed the company 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.440 line there, right, because the c I couldn't say, yeah, 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.000 that list is really accurate, and we do this. The CIA, 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.400 for years and years and years after the the their 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:41.760 cover was blown, would never acknowledge that there were secret prisons. Right. Well, yeah, 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:43.920 but g W had to come clean and what oh 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.880 six in Atlanta wasn't in atlantas Sony produced standing next 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.200 to him. Yeah, he acknowledged the existence of secret prisons. 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.439 And it's probably after seeing W. It was probably just 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.439 like a snaffoo, or he didn't. He didn't mean to 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:02.280 say it. He was probably tricked into admitting it, but 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:06.240 he did, and um it so it came out that yes, 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.520 these these do exist, but but we don't use them 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.840 any longer. And then in January of two thousand nine, 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.480 Obama the first thing he does is shuts down the 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:23.199 CIA secret prison network, three years after they stopped using it. Apparently, 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.480 well that was on a second full day in office 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:30.440 he did that. But pro Publica you've part of them too, right, Yes, 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:35.240 they they say that there are um dozens of ghost 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:41.520 prisoners still unaccounted for, so it's um you know, he 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:43.640 says he shut him down, but they say pro Publica 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.000 all these human rights groups say that they're still they 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.599 don't know where these dudes are. Well, the other the 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.760 other possibility is that the secret prisons have been shut down, 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:56.839 but those people are dead. Um, that's kind of that 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.880 was par for the course in a lot of ways 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.920 for the CIA secret prisons. If you have no rights whatsoever, 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.480 if you die in custody, nobody cares. Like let's say, 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:11.520 or I shouldn't say, no one cares. There's no accountability 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.280 for that. So for instance, let's say you were, um, 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:16.360 you died of ahixiation because you were held in a 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:20.079 shipping container. Yeah. Have you seen the road du Guantanamo. No, 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.640 there's a it's a kind of I guess, doc. No, 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:25.079 I know about it. I just haven't seen it. It's 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.440 worth seeing, Yeah, I mean it's it's it's worth seeing. Um. 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.679 But there's a there's a scene in there that that 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:34.240 shows that these people being rounded up and shipped across 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:38.719 Afghanistan in a huge like shipping container and like when 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:40.559 they opened the doors the next day, like most of 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.920 them are dead. It's gross, it's really disturbing. Well, it's 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:45.760 like when you get the pet turtle in the shoe box, 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.520 you gotta Mom always says, you know, remember the holes 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.839 in the top. Yeah, so apparently mom wasn't around to 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.199 remind them of this. No, people weren't thinking like that. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.319 And the one dude froze to death. Yeah, and the 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.160 secret prison with and I have to say, they had 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.760 some pretty cool names. Uh. The one of the first 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.559 and one of the largest was codenamed Salt Pit. And 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.480 it was in a brick factory and abandoned brick factory 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:13.319 outside of Cobble. Uh. And um, a junior CIA officer 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.120 who was kind of new on this kind of thing 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:20.040 ordered a detainee strip naked in chain to the floor 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.000 and he was left overnight. And it can get pretty 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.520 cold apparently in Cobble. Uh. And the guy froze to death. 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.120 So I mean, it's entirely possible that this two dozen, 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.319 these two dozen people, I'm surprised it's not more. But 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.640 these two dozen people who are unaccounted for are are dead? Right, 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.440 that's probably the case. Yeah. Uh, you mentioned the names. 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.599 I dug up a couple of more. Um, and I 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:45.840 would say these are probably top ten lists of camps. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.880 You don't want to go to. But Camp Dark Prison 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:53.480 was the one, and my favorite was Camp bond Steel 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.000 b O N D S T E E L. I 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.200 can't bond steel and thank you for spelling it. Well, 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.800 it's not steel is in. Take its steel is in. 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:05.599 This is the metal that I will beat you with. 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.319 This is metal that you will live behind for the 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.280 rest of your life if you, um, well, let's talk 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.400 about what what you lose when you're in a CIA prison. 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.600 That the right to lose um. Traditionally do you remember, 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.760 like a few years ago, the whole you know, what, 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.400 what are the people in Guantanamo Bay? Are the enemy 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.400 combatants or the non combatants or the terrorists? Like what 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.560 kind of rights do they have? Are they do they 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.199 fall under the Geneva Convention. And it was largely decided 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.559 by the Bush administration that no, these people didn't have 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:42.120 Geneva Convention rights right, UM. With the under the purview 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:44.719 of the Geneva Convention, the Red Cross is charged with 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:49.679 going to visit enemy combatants and prisoners of war UM 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.480 on both sides, and and and see how they're treated 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.000 um with the secret prisons. First of all, the people, 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.480 no one knew that these people had been you know, 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.040 um kidnapped. What wouldn't be very good secret prison exactly 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:04.839 if the Red Cross knew about it where they were 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.240 And yeah, they were denied you know the Cross. Even 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.400 after the Red Cross found out that they were here, 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:12.480 and and I know, you've got this guy here and 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.160 we want to visit them in the secret prison, will 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.160 quiet see It's like, no, we're not letting you in. Right. 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.080 That kind of shook things up. That's a big deal. Um, 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.800 there's no habeas corpus And and like you mentioned earlier, 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.040 they they would go to countries where they typically might 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.160 torture people. And because the US isn't allowed to obviously 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.319 to torture, they weren't at the time. Before it was 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.679 we decided yeah, yeah we torture, right, but we outsourced it, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.720 like you mentioned, so we would, let's say, set up 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.079 in um I think you said the first one was 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.160 in Thailand. Yeah, so they were looking around there, like 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:47.640 where would I go if I wanted to set up 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.880 a secret prison where you might be able to uh torture. 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.520 Somebody in Thailand was like, come on over, you can 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.920 set up shop here, and they they outsourced it. But 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.480 from what I read in your article was you wrote 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.719 this right? From what I read was the US could say, like, hey, 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.480 ask him about the micro film, right, we would pass 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.079 along questions or direction or something like that. And the 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.079 the last I wrote this thing in uh, I can't remember, 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:13.920 some time in two thousand seven, I think late two 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.920 thousand seven. And at the time, the last UM report 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.200 I had had of of somebody being held in the 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:26.400 secret prison was in Africa, I believe North Africa. Yeah, uh. 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:32.360 And and some Americans and Canadians reported having contact with 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.840 Americans in these like African prisons, Westerners being held captive 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:41.280 secretly and some guy behind the curtain saying use the 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.400 dental drill exactly, and he sounds like he's from Omaha, 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.200 and he shouldn't because this is you know, Africa, uh, 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:54.280 in other places, other other black site host countries. Yeah, 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:58.360 that's what they're called, just like the black budgets and 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:02.240 black ops the or black sites, right, or ghost prisons. 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.040 So you put black in front of it, and if 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.560 it's related to the government and there's no description, there's 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.240 just like a huge budget on a line item. Yeah, 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.440 with a sharpie that is exit out. That's the secret prison. Um. 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:22.160 There are Some of the other countries are Azerbaijan, Oman, Jordan, Morocco, Syria, Egypt, Algeria. 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:27.200 All of these places where UM receiving prisoners didn't necessarily 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.920 have a black site may have, but then most of 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:36.080 the black site UH countries host countries were UM Eastern 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.960 European like Lithuania and Romania. Yeah, but once uh, once 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.000 it came out, though, they would probably try to shut 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:43.600 it down, right because they didn't want this to get 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.360 out to the press. Well, not only did they not 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.240 wanted to get out to the press, they didn't necessarily 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.280 wanted to get out to the president of that country. 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.520 And a lot of cases it was like the c 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.720 I a uh, maybe a couple of maybe the the U. S. 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.520 Ambassador of that country, and a couple of like say 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.480 bulgar Area's secret police, like high commanders. Those are the 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.400 only people on the planet who knew that there was 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.960 a secret prison Bulgaria. What do they get into Romania? 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.760 I wondered that myself too. I mean, like it's gotta 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.040 be money, right, Sure, it would have to be, because 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.440 do you really think Bulgarians are quite as amped up 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.800 about American patriotism is? Say, you know, the average American 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.520 is yeah, I wouldn't think so, and especially uh Bulgarian 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:29.120 secret police officer, you know, well yeah, so yeah, I 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.400 would think money. Well we yeah. What I said though, 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.280 second ago is they would close like Thailand when the 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:35.920 word got out that they were doing this and now 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:38.080 we should close this. But it seems like every time 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:39.880 it happened, they would just find a different country and 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:41.960 then go set up shop there, right, And what with 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.480 Eastern Europe in particular, it was a little prickly or 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:50.120 ticklish because, um, well when the Washington Post broke this story, 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:52.760 they even said in the article, like, we're not going 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:54.960 to reveal the names of the host countries because it's 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:59.080 so sensitive. Um that these countries governments are really gonna 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.480 have problems on their hands when it comes out. And 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:05.480 indeed they did at first. Um. But the reason why 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.960 is because these were all post uh Soviet Block countries 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.359 that had, you know, adopted democracies after the fall of 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.800 the Soviet Union. Um. And we're now you know, involved 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:22.920 in this horrible uh secret prison network. You know you 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:24.960 were talking about when word got out? Do you know 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.360 how word got out? Well, this is a Thailand one. 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.960 No word got out on what then unlike the existence 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:37.399 of the secret prison period. H yeah, it wasn't a 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.119 canary singing singing like a canary. No, there was a 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.399 vision there was Basically it was the CIA's fault. They 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.119 didn't do their leg work. They didn't do their homework 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.480 with the manifest for the planes. Yes, so this is 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:54.119 what this is what cracks me up, is kidnapping people, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.840 taking them to a secret prison network that they've set up, 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.440 and yet the honest about flight manifests right right, Yeah, 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.320 that's what I don't get. So there was a Swedish 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.879 TV producer who um basically did some like hard hitting journalism. 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:13.679 I think it was called cold Facts was the translation 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.440 of the Swedish. We'll call him Spence Fencing. I think 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:19.840 that's good. And if that's not his name, I'll bet 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.280 Spence Spencon is better than his real name. So Sven 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:29.600 um was was, I guess, investigating the the extradition of 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:34.840 two um Swedish citizens to Egypt for questioning. They were 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:40.439 suspected terrorists. So sven starts looking into um the plane 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.879 that that took them there, and it was a Gulf 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.920 Stream five. Yeah they charted these right. Yeah, it was 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.800 a Gulf Stream five and it was registered to a 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:55.440 company Sven found out very quickly UM called Premier Executive 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.520 Transport Services, and it was registered in Deadham, Massachusetts. So 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:04.240 Sven and calls Premier Executive Transport Services, leaves a message 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.240 wants to know about, you know, why they would be 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:12.199 transporting UM suspected terrorists to Egypt, And fifteen minutes later 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.200 it gets a call from the Swedish Intelligence Service saying like, 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:19.280 stop asking questions, and so Savin starts looking a little 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.239 further and apparently UM finds out very quickly, in very 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:26.040 short order that there are thirty six planes chartered by 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:31.080 the CIA UM making odds that are all that are 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.760 all yeah, making odds. Stops with the nationalities of the 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:40.160 people on board, and they would go from like say, UM, Afghanistan, Yeah, 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:44.040 this guy out to Egypt, trough UM Morocco, and then 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.600 to Guantanamo. Yeah, they're flying from Afghanistan to Guantanamo. But 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.960 somehow they can't get a direct flight. And they stop 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:52.359 off at like four places along the way right and 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.480 then at each stop there's somebody who's um, you know 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.200 uh uh country of origin is Ohman and they but 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:03.520 they get off know in in Cuba, you know. So, yeah, 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.800 it's very flimsy. All the all of the companies were 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:11.680 dummy corporations that had like p O boxes listed And yeah, 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.879 the Swedish intelligence Service basically tipped this guy off and 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.280 he blew the whistle. And I think two thousand four 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:22.320 when yeah, Spence Svince Svince in r I p so 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.159 these prisons, Josh, we're not saying that, you know, these 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.200 are nice guys that shouldn't be picked on. These you know, 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:31.640 these are big, big time. And the one in Thailand, 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:34.760 I think the first one, their first guest, their first 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:40.600 overnight guest, was Abu Zuba Zobeida, and he was a 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:42.920 top al Qaeda guy. He was captured in a shootout 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:47.320 in Pakistan, was recovering in the hospital and I think 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:49.879 he probably knew what was what was going on. You know, 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.400 he's in the hospital saying, I'm still not feeling that great, 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:54.960 maybe I should stay here a little longer. And then 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:57.080 he recovers and then they're like, well, why don't you 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:59.480 come stay in our our private hotel. Was he the 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.840 one that they they kidnapped out of his hospital? Ben Somalia, 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.800 Uh no, no, no, they just Pkistan. Yeah, they were. 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:08.800 He was just recovering after a shootout and then they 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.920 brought him to their little the secret hotel. And you 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.080 pointed out that he was treated well. Well, he was 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:17.960 tortured and treated well, said they. You said they fed 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.240 him breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and yeah, and he loved 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:22.640 kit cats and they gave him kick cats all the time. 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.600 Did he I don't know. That's what I was, That's 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:28.480 what I read. Well, it said they fed him. He 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:30.200 was treated well because they fed him baked chicken and 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:32.280 candy bars. But what if on his little questionnaire he 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.200 filled out like allergic to chocolate and I hate chicken. 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.760 Part of entirely possible. I just wanted to bring that up. 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:45.360 There's also um Chuck a list on Mother Jones I think, yeah, yeah, 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:50.119 of UM music the Music of Torture or something like that. 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:54.520 Metallica's hype the list I know that Metallica, Rick Astley, Yeah, 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:59.800 the Barney there, yeah yeah, the Barney song at UM 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.639 Guantanamo very loudly, over and over and over again. And 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.359 Mia mix commercial really yeah, yeah, I would do the 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:13.960 um Cook's pest control here locally looking looking lucky. Here 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:19.040 comes cookie pass control. Yeah, the the guy I mentioned that, 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:24.199 the Abu Zubdaya Zubaya. Yeah, he was joined shortly thereafter 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:28.520 by Khaleed Chiek Mohammed, who's a high value, high high 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:31.000 value target. So I'm sure when he checked in to 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.720 the secret hotel the other guy was like, oh crap, 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:36.040 what's not good. What's odd is that you know it 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.080 took us as many years as it did to start 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:42.480 assassinating people like uh. I think it was just in 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:45.560 the last couple of months that UM news broke of 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.840 some programs that the CIA was outsourcing to, like um 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:54.560 ZE Worldwide, Blackwater and other contractors, Extel's force. Guys. Who 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:58.879 were you know, going into Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and assassinating 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:02.959 UM like al Qaeda leaders and other terrorists guys. Right, 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:06.440 So I wonder why we didn't just do that at first, instead, 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:10.880 you know started I guess we needed info. Yeah, intelligence, 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:13.280 we had none, So I guess that's probably why they 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:16.600