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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know

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Speaker 1: from House Stuff works dot com. This episode of Stuff

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Speaker 1: you Should Know is brought to you by Go to Meeting.

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Speaker 1: We all have to meet, but the average cost of

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Speaker 1: a single business trip is one thousand dollars. With just

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Speaker 1: Visit Go to Meeting dot com slash stuff. That's Go

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Speaker 1: to Meeting dot com slash stuff. Hey and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Across this vast gulf of

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Speaker 1: a table in our brand new v o C heavy

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Speaker 1: studio is Charles You, Chuck, Brian, Alright, we're in people.

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Speaker 1: This is our brand new studio. This is our first

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Speaker 1: time recording and now it's we gotta get used to

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Speaker 1: this weirdness all over again. Know things just can't be normal.

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Speaker 1: So now we're in weird chairs and the table is huge,

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Speaker 1: and Jerry. I can't even talk about Jerry because she's

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Speaker 1: not even in the room with us anymore. Wait, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: did you just pronounced huge with the out the h

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Speaker 1: with the H being silent? Did you just say huge?

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Speaker 1: I've been saying human being and huge ever since I

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Speaker 1: came back from New York. Huge. Yeah, it's huge, huge.

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Speaker 1: And Jerry isn't even in our vision line of vision,

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Speaker 1: and I hate that. Yeah, it's odd. Things are odd.

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Speaker 1: There's like a burlette curtain. I'm wearing headphones made out

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Speaker 1: of old potatoes. Alright, Chuck, let's let's get this going

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Speaker 1: all right, All right, enough griping from us. No, seriously,

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Speaker 1: nobody cares. No, one cares. Um. I had like a

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Speaker 1: great intro to this one. Let's hear it. I can't remember. Oh, yes, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: you know that there's a lot of finger pointing about

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Speaker 1: how nine eleven was allowed to happen? Right? Uh? Is

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Speaker 1: there there? There has been. I don't know if there

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Speaker 1: is anymore. But at first there's a lot of finger pointing,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of that fell on Clinton. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you know, Bush is pretty new. He was a

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Speaker 1: He was a newbie still as far as presidents go,

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Speaker 1: and Clinton had been president for two terms. Blame it

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Speaker 1: on the previous guy. It's an American tradition, it really is. UM.

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Speaker 1: But the thing is Clinton's administration, Clintons CIA had passed

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Speaker 1: along a list of high valued targets of people in

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Speaker 1: the Alcadda network before the September eleventh attacks ever happened,

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Speaker 1: and there was a lot of talk about what to

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Speaker 1: do with this list of people. UM. After September eleven,

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Speaker 1: like you know, say, eleven am on September eleven, the

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Speaker 1: talk started about what to do with this list is

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Speaker 1: it became clear that this was al Qaeda that had

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Speaker 1: carried out this this heinous attack, right, And one of

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Speaker 1: the things that we did with it was to publish

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Speaker 1: a UM deck of cards. I have that deck? Do

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Speaker 1: you really? Yeah? A friend of mine gave me that deck. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember that you could get them like a

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Speaker 1: comedience stores and American public beyond the lookout for these

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Speaker 1: guys and also enjoy some you know, Texas hold them

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Speaker 1: with them as well. And my mine is Camo on

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Speaker 1: the other side. That's appropriate, UM, But so there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of talk about what to do with this list

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Speaker 1: of people. We had their names in a lot of cases,

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Speaker 1: we knew where they were, and um one of the

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Speaker 1: one of the ideas that was suggested was to start

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Speaker 1: assassinating all of them, and that one was I think

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Speaker 1: probably fairly well entertained. But the CIA had been as

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Speaker 1: far as we know, out of UM practice with assassinations

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Speaker 1: for a while. UM. So instead we decided to start

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Speaker 1: UM stepping up a program called Extraordinary Rendition, right right,

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Speaker 1: which would be a great band name. As soon as

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Speaker 1: I heard it. You you think everything is a great

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Speaker 1: band name? No, not everyone. Everyone thinks everything is a

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Speaker 1: good band name, but not me. Okay, you're you're the

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Speaker 1: I'm the guy who named his band El Cheapo, So

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Speaker 1: I know it's a good one. What was the other one?

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Speaker 1: A designer kiddy or what? There's another band name recently

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Speaker 1: that you liked? Oh I don't know? Okay, Well, anyway,

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Speaker 1: this Extraordinary Rendition program actually dated back to UM the

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Speaker 1: Bush senior presidency. In January, George Herbert Walker Bush UM

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Speaker 1: signed a Presidential finding authorizing extraordinary rendition, which basically is kidnapping.

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Speaker 1: Yeah of finding it we should say it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like an executive order. It's one of those things that

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Speaker 1: a president can just say, make it happen. But it's

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Speaker 1: pretty much a secret executive order. I mean, like its

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Speaker 1: existence can be made public, but its contents aren't. And

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Speaker 1: actually the executive order that Um Bush Senior signed um

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Speaker 1: allowing or authorizing extraordinary rendition is still classified, right, But

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Speaker 1: what we know is that it was used a couple

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Speaker 1: of dozen times, largely in the Clinton era, and for

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Speaker 1: the most part it was used to go into countries

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Speaker 1: that harbor terrorists, kidnapped the terrorists, and then bring them

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Speaker 1: to American courts for trial or other places. Well that

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Speaker 1: that kind of stepped up after two thousand one, after

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Speaker 1: after Bush Jr. Came into power. Um the CIA stopped,

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Speaker 1: I guess, kind of wanting to put their faith in

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Speaker 1: American courts and risk the coin toss of of an

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Speaker 1: American jury going in favor of a terrorist. So they

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Speaker 1: started using extraordinary rendition to third party nations. So now

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Speaker 1: not only are we kidnapping foreign nationals or kidnapping foreign

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Speaker 1: nationals and taking them to other countries that they don't

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Speaker 1: have an affiliation with so that we can basically outsource torture, interrogation,

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing, right, Yeah, And we should point

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Speaker 1: out at this point that UM during this kind of rendition, Uh,

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Speaker 1: this isn't the kind of rendition you want to hear

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Speaker 1: if you're a detainee, because it basically means you can't

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Speaker 1: you don't have a lot of contact with the outside world,

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Speaker 1: as in none, you don't have rights to habeas corpus.

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Speaker 1: You can't call your attorney and say, you know, get

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Speaker 1: me out of here on bail. Uh, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: It's very secret you're abducted. I think one of the

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Speaker 1: stories you listed was a guy that they set up

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Speaker 1: a fake fundraiser and invited this guy to it in

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Speaker 1: order to capture him. Yeah. After after nine eleven, like

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Speaker 1: the world stage turned into like this um plot exposition

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Speaker 1: montage from a Mission Impossible movement or a Simpsons episode. Sure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: people just started disappearing. Actually, yeah, pretty much. And by

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Speaker 1: the very socio or the very um geopolitical definition of disappearing,

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Speaker 1: it was they were kidnapped by a government entity and

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Speaker 1: kept out of the um perv you, of the courts,

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Speaker 1: and stripped of any kind of rights, right, right, So

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Speaker 1: the problem is we went from using a couple of

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Speaker 1: extraordinary rendition on a couple of dozen people throughout the

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Speaker 1: entire nineties to UM by the New York Times estimate

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Speaker 1: at least three hundred and seven UM between late two

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Speaker 1: thousand one and two thousand five. That's probably a very

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Speaker 1: very low number, right, So we go from a couple

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Speaker 1: of dozen in a decade to three hundred and seven

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Speaker 1: and more in about four years, and we don't exactly

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Speaker 1: know where to put these people. The CIA didn't want

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Speaker 1: to bring them to the US because they didn't want

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Speaker 1: them to be prosecuted in American courts. They wanted these

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Speaker 1: people to lose all their rights and to disappear so

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Speaker 1: that they could be kept for as long as the

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Speaker 1: CIA wanted them until they found out what they needed.

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Speaker 1: So what they did was set up as a network

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Speaker 1: of secret prisons, right, ghost prisons as their call us.

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Speaker 1: And they're known as ghost prisoners there and they are

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Speaker 1: the podcast Yeah if only Human Rights Watch, you've heard

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Speaker 1: of that group. They have a list on the internets

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Speaker 1: about a list of ghost prisoners, suspected ghost prisoners, and

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Speaker 1: it's very long, and the CIA is always like, we

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Speaker 1: don't comment on that. Kind of thing because those lists

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Speaker 1: are probably not accurate, right that they towed the company

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Speaker 1: line there, right, because the c I couldn't say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that list is really accurate, and we do this. The CIA,

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Speaker 1: for years and years and years after the the their

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Speaker 1: cover was blown, would never acknowledge that there were secret prisons. Right. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but g W had to come clean and what oh

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Speaker 1: six in Atlanta wasn't in atlantas Sony produced standing next

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Speaker 1: to him. Yeah, he acknowledged the existence of secret prisons.

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Speaker 1: And it's probably after seeing W. It was probably just

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Speaker 1: like a snaffoo, or he didn't. He didn't mean to

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Speaker 1: say it. He was probably tricked into admitting it, but

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Speaker 1: he did, and um it so it came out that yes,

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Speaker 1: these these do exist, but but we don't use them

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Speaker 1: any longer. And then in January of two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: Obama the first thing he does is shuts down the

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Speaker 1: CIA secret prison network, three years after they stopped using it. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: well that was on a second full day in office

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Speaker 1: he did that. But pro Publica you've part of them too, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: they they say that there are um dozens of ghost

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Speaker 1: prisoners still unaccounted for, so it's um you know, he

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Speaker 1: says he shut him down, but they say pro Publica

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Speaker 1: all these human rights groups say that they're still they

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Speaker 1: don't know where these dudes are. Well, the other the

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Speaker 1: other possibility is that the secret prisons have been shut down,

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Speaker 1: but those people are dead. Um, that's kind of that

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Speaker 1: was par for the course in a lot of ways

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Speaker 1: for the CIA secret prisons. If you have no rights whatsoever,

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Speaker 1: if you die in custody, nobody cares. Like let's say,

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Speaker 1: or I shouldn't say, no one cares. There's no accountability

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Speaker 1: for that. So for instance, let's say you were, um,

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Speaker 1: you died of ahixiation because you were held in a

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Speaker 1: shipping container. Yeah. Have you seen the road du Guantanamo. No,

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Speaker 1: there's a it's a kind of I guess, doc. No,

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Speaker 1: I know about it. I just haven't seen it. It's

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Speaker 1: worth seeing, Yeah, I mean it's it's it's worth seeing. Um.

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Speaker 1: But there's a there's a scene in there that that

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Speaker 1: shows that these people being rounded up and shipped across

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan in a huge like shipping container and like when

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Speaker 1: they opened the doors the next day, like most of

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Speaker 1: them are dead. It's gross, it's really disturbing. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: like when you get the pet turtle in the shoe box,

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Speaker 1: you gotta Mom always says, you know, remember the holes

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Speaker 1: in the top. Yeah, so apparently mom wasn't around to

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Speaker 1: remind them of this. No, people weren't thinking like that.

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Speaker 1: And the one dude froze to death. Yeah, and the

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Speaker 1: secret prison with and I have to say, they had

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Speaker 1: some pretty cool names. Uh. The one of the first

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Speaker 1: and one of the largest was codenamed Salt Pit. And

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Speaker 1: it was in a brick factory and abandoned brick factory

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Speaker 1: outside of Cobble. Uh. And um, a junior CIA officer

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Speaker 1: who was kind of new on this kind of thing

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Speaker 1: ordered a detainee strip naked in chain to the floor

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Speaker 1: and he was left overnight. And it can get pretty

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Speaker 1: cold apparently in Cobble. Uh. And the guy froze to death.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, it's entirely possible that this two dozen,

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Speaker 1: these two dozen people, I'm surprised it's not more. But

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Speaker 1: these two dozen people who are unaccounted for are are dead? Right,

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Speaker 1: that's probably the case. Yeah. Uh, you mentioned the names.

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Speaker 1: I dug up a couple of more. Um, and I

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Speaker 1: would say these are probably top ten lists of camps.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to go to. But Camp Dark Prison

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Speaker 1: was the one, and my favorite was Camp bond Steel

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Speaker 1: b O N D S T E E L. I

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Speaker 1: can't bond steel and thank you for spelling it. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not steel is in. Take its steel is in.

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Speaker 1: This is the metal that I will beat you with.

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Speaker 1: This is metal that you will live behind for the

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Speaker 1: rest of your life if you, um, well, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about what what you lose when you're in a CIA prison.

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Speaker 1: That the right to lose um. Traditionally do you remember,

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Speaker 1: like a few years ago, the whole you know, what,

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Speaker 1: what are the people in Guantanamo Bay? Are the enemy

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Speaker 1: combatants or the non combatants or the terrorists? Like what

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Speaker 1: kind of rights do they have? Are they do they

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Speaker 1: fall under the Geneva Convention. And it was largely decided

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Speaker 1: by the Bush administration that no, these people didn't have

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Speaker 1: Geneva Convention rights right, UM. With the under the purview

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Speaker 1: of the Geneva Convention, the Red Cross is charged with

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Speaker 1: going to visit enemy combatants and prisoners of war UM

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Speaker 1: on both sides, and and and see how they're treated

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Speaker 1: um with the secret prisons. First of all, the people,

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Speaker 1: no one knew that these people had been you know,

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Speaker 1: um kidnapped. What wouldn't be very good secret prison exactly

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Speaker 1: if the Red Cross knew about it where they were

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Speaker 1: And yeah, they were denied you know the Cross. Even

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Speaker 1: after the Red Cross found out that they were here,

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Speaker 1: and and I know, you've got this guy here and

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Speaker 1: we want to visit them in the secret prison, will

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Speaker 1: quiet see It's like, no, we're not letting you in. Right.

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Speaker 1: That kind of shook things up. That's a big deal. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's no habeas corpus And and like you mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: they they would go to countries where they typically might

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Speaker 1: torture people. And because the US isn't allowed to obviously

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Speaker 1: to torture, they weren't at the time. Before it was

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Speaker 1: we decided yeah, yeah we torture, right, but we outsourced it,

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Speaker 1: like you mentioned, so we would, let's say, set up

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Speaker 1: in um I think you said the first one was

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Speaker 1: in Thailand. Yeah, so they were looking around there, like

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Speaker 1: where would I go if I wanted to set up

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Speaker 1: a secret prison where you might be able to uh torture.

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Speaker 1: Somebody in Thailand was like, come on over, you can

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Speaker 1: set up shop here, and they they outsourced it. But

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Speaker 1: from what I read in your article was you wrote

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Speaker 1: this right? From what I read was the US could say, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: ask him about the micro film, right, we would pass

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Speaker 1: along questions or direction or something like that. And the

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Speaker 1: the last I wrote this thing in uh, I can't remember,

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Speaker 1: some time in two thousand seven, I think late two

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Speaker 1: thousand seven. And at the time, the last UM report

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Speaker 1: I had had of of somebody being held in the

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Speaker 1: secret prison was in Africa, I believe North Africa. Yeah, uh.

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Speaker 1: And and some Americans and Canadians reported having contact with

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Speaker 1: Americans in these like African prisons, Westerners being held captive

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Speaker 1: secretly and some guy behind the curtain saying use the

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Speaker 1: dental drill exactly, and he sounds like he's from Omaha,

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Speaker 1: and he shouldn't because this is you know, Africa, uh,

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Speaker 1: in other places, other other black site host countries. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what they're called, just like the black budgets and

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Speaker 1: black ops the or black sites, right, or ghost prisons.

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Speaker 1: So you put black in front of it, and if

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Speaker 1: it's related to the government and there's no description, there's

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Speaker 1: just like a huge budget on a line item. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: with a sharpie that is exit out. That's the secret prison. Um.

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Speaker 1: There are Some of the other countries are Azerbaijan, Oman, Jordan, Morocco, Syria, Egypt, Algeria.

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Speaker 1: All of these places where UM receiving prisoners didn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: have a black site may have, but then most of

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Speaker 1: the black site UH countries host countries were UM Eastern

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Speaker 1: European like Lithuania and Romania. Yeah, but once uh, once

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Speaker 1: it came out, though, they would probably try to shut

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Speaker 1: it down, right because they didn't want this to get

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Speaker 1: out to the press. Well, not only did they not

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Speaker 1: wanted to get out to the press, they didn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: wanted to get out to the president of that country.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of cases it was like the c

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Speaker 1: I a uh, maybe a couple of maybe the the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Ambassador of that country, and a couple of like say

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Speaker 1: bulgar Area's secret police, like high commanders. Those are the

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Speaker 1: only people on the planet who knew that there was

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Speaker 1: a secret prison Bulgaria. What do they get into Romania?

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Speaker 1: I wondered that myself too. I mean, like it's gotta

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Speaker 1: be money, right, Sure, it would have to be, because

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Speaker 1: do you really think Bulgarians are quite as amped up

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Speaker 1: about American patriotism is? Say, you know, the average American

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Speaker 1: is yeah, I wouldn't think so, and especially uh Bulgarian

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Speaker 1: secret police officer, you know, well yeah, so yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would think money. Well we yeah. What I said though,

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Speaker 1: second ago is they would close like Thailand when the

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Speaker 1: word got out that they were doing this and now

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Speaker 1: we should close this. But it seems like every time

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Speaker 1: it happened, they would just find a different country and

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Speaker 1: then go set up shop there, right, And what with

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Speaker 1: Eastern Europe in particular, it was a little prickly or

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Speaker 1: ticklish because, um, well when the Washington Post broke this story,

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Speaker 1: they even said in the article, like, we're not going

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Speaker 1: to reveal the names of the host countries because it's

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Speaker 1: so sensitive. Um that these countries governments are really gonna

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Speaker 1: have problems on their hands when it comes out. And

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Speaker 1: indeed they did at first. Um. But the reason why

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Speaker 1: is because these were all post uh Soviet Block countries

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Speaker 1: that had, you know, adopted democracies after the fall of

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. Um. And we're now you know, involved

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Speaker 1: in this horrible uh secret prison network. You know you

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Speaker 1: were talking about when word got out? Do you know

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Speaker 1: how word got out? Well, this is a Thailand one.

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Speaker 1: No word got out on what then unlike the existence

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Speaker 1: of the secret prison period. H yeah, it wasn't a

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Speaker 1: canary singing singing like a canary. No, there was a

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Speaker 1: vision there was Basically it was the CIA's fault. They

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Speaker 1: didn't do their leg work. They didn't do their homework

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Speaker 1: with the manifest for the planes. Yes, so this is

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Speaker 1: what this is what cracks me up, is kidnapping people,

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Speaker 1: taking them to a secret prison network that they've set up,

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Speaker 1: and yet the honest about flight manifests right right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what I don't get. So there was a Swedish

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Speaker 1: TV producer who um basically did some like hard hitting journalism.

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Speaker 1: I think it was called cold Facts was the translation

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Speaker 1: of the Swedish. We'll call him Spence Fencing. I think

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Speaker 1: that's good. And if that's not his name, I'll bet

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Speaker 1: Spence Spencon is better than his real name. So Sven

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Speaker 1: um was was, I guess, investigating the the extradition of

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Speaker 1: two um Swedish citizens to Egypt for questioning. They were

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Speaker 1: suspected terrorists. So sven starts looking into um the plane

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Speaker 1: that that took them there, and it was a Gulf

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Speaker 1: Stream five. Yeah they charted these right. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: a Gulf Stream five and it was registered to a

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Speaker 1: company Sven found out very quickly UM called Premier Executive

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Speaker 1: Transport Services, and it was registered in Deadham, Massachusetts. So

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Speaker 1: Sven and calls Premier Executive Transport Services, leaves a message

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Speaker 1: wants to know about, you know, why they would be

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Speaker 1: transporting UM suspected terrorists to Egypt, And fifteen minutes later

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Speaker 1: it gets a call from the Swedish Intelligence Service saying like,

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Speaker 1: stop asking questions, and so Savin starts looking a little

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Speaker 1: further and apparently UM finds out very quickly, in very

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Speaker 1: short order that there are thirty six planes chartered by

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Speaker 1: the CIA UM making odds that are all that are

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Speaker 1: all yeah, making odds. Stops with the nationalities of the

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Speaker 1: people on board, and they would go from like say, UM, Afghanistan, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this guy out to Egypt, trough UM Morocco, and then

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Speaker 1: to Guantanamo. Yeah, they're flying from Afghanistan to Guantanamo. But

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Speaker 1: somehow they can't get a direct flight. And they stop

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Speaker 1: off at like four places along the way right and

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Speaker 1: then at each stop there's somebody who's um, you know

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Speaker 1: uh uh country of origin is Ohman and they but

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Speaker 1: they get off know in in Cuba, you know. So, yeah,

347
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Speaker 1: it's very flimsy. All the all of the companies were

348
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Speaker 1: dummy corporations that had like p O boxes listed And yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Swedish intelligence Service basically tipped this guy off and

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Speaker 1: he blew the whistle. And I think two thousand four

351
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Speaker 1: when yeah, Spence Svince Svince in r I p so

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Speaker 1: these prisons, Josh, we're not saying that, you know, these

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Speaker 1: are nice guys that shouldn't be picked on. These you know,

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Speaker 1: these are big, big time. And the one in Thailand,

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Speaker 1: I think the first one, their first guest, their first

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Speaker 1: overnight guest, was Abu Zuba Zobeida, and he was a

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Speaker 1: top al Qaeda guy. He was captured in a shootout

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Speaker 1: in Pakistan, was recovering in the hospital and I think

359
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Speaker 1: he probably knew what was what was going on. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's in the hospital saying, I'm still not feeling that great,

361
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Speaker 1: maybe I should stay here a little longer. And then

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Speaker 1: he recovers and then they're like, well, why don't you

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Speaker 1: come stay in our our private hotel. Was he the

364
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Speaker 1: one that they they kidnapped out of his hospital? Ben Somalia,

365
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Speaker 1: Uh no, no, no, they just Pkistan. Yeah, they were.

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Speaker 1: He was just recovering after a shootout and then they

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Speaker 1: brought him to their little the secret hotel. And you

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Speaker 1: pointed out that he was treated well. Well, he was

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Speaker 1: tortured and treated well, said they. You said they fed

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Speaker 1: him breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and yeah, and he loved

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Speaker 1: kit cats and they gave him kick cats all the time.

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Speaker 1: Did he I don't know. That's what I was, That's

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Speaker 1: what I read. Well, it said they fed him. He

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Speaker 1: was treated well because they fed him baked chicken and

375
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Speaker 1: candy bars. But what if on his little questionnaire he

376
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Speaker 1: filled out like allergic to chocolate and I hate chicken.

377
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Speaker 1: Part of entirely possible. I just wanted to bring that up.

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Speaker 1: There's also um Chuck a list on Mother Jones I think, yeah, yeah,

379
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Speaker 1: of UM music the Music of Torture or something like that.

380
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Speaker 1: Metallica's hype the list I know that Metallica, Rick Astley, Yeah,

381
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 1: the Barney there, yeah yeah, the Barney song at UM

382
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 1: Guantanamo very loudly, over and over and over again. And

383
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 1: Mia mix commercial really yeah, yeah, I would do the

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Speaker 1: um Cook's pest control here locally looking looking lucky. Here

385
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: comes cookie pass control. Yeah, the the guy I mentioned that,

386
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Speaker 1: the Abu Zubdaya Zubaya. Yeah, he was joined shortly thereafter

387
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Speaker 1: by Khaleed Chiek Mohammed, who's a high value, high high

388
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Speaker 1: value target. So I'm sure when he checked in to

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Speaker 1: the secret hotel the other guy was like, oh crap,

390
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: what's not good. What's odd is that you know it

391
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Speaker 1: took us as many years as it did to start

392
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Speaker 1: assassinating people like uh. I think it was just in

393
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Speaker 1: the last couple of months that UM news broke of

394
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Speaker 1: some programs that the CIA was outsourcing to, like um

395
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Speaker 1: ZE Worldwide, Blackwater and other contractors, Extel's force. Guys. Who

396
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 1: were you know, going into Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and assassinating

397
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Speaker 1: UM like al Qaeda leaders and other terrorists guys. Right,

398
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Speaker 1: So I wonder why we didn't just do that at first, instead,

399
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Speaker 1: you know started I guess we needed info. Yeah, intelligence,

400
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: we had none, So I guess that's probably why they

401
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: were like, well, we can't kill them, Yeah, what's going on?

402
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: So we can water board him? And then eight years

403
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: later we'll start assassinating and give them kitcats, right apparently,

404
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: so oh latest news on this UM Yeah, there's some

405
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: pretty recent stuff going on. Yeah, did you read about

406
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: the UM Physicians for Human Rights report? So basically there

407
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: were physicians present at a lot of these enhanced derogations,

408
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: and not just in an observational manner. Well that's what

409
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 1: they were supposed to be there forest and basically like, hey,

410
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Speaker 1: you just almost drowned, so let me make sure you're

411
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Speaker 1: still alive and breathing in in good health. Right, Yeah,

412
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: that's UM, that's okay. Actually, apparently as far as the

413
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Speaker 1: American Medical Association and and international UM treaties are concerned,

414
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Speaker 1: you're allowed to do that. You're still fulfilling your purpose

415
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: as a physician. They took it a step further, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: they did. They have a report out Josh called Experiments

417
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Speaker 1: and Torture Evidence of Human Subject Research and Experimentation in

418
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Speaker 1: the Enhanced Interrogation Program. And from what I gathered, the

419
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Speaker 1: long and short of it is they were gathering information

420
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Speaker 1: that could later be used to defend and court the torturers.

421
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Speaker 1: Is that right? I think they were quantifying pain thresholds,

422
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Speaker 1: like if you waterboard this guy for this long, he'll

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Speaker 1: experience a pain of eight. So they were kind of

424
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: writing an outline of what you can do and still

425
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: get defended in a court of law, right, which transferred

426
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: their position as physicians to UM researchers. And it's transferred

427
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: the position of these detainees as patients to test subjects.

428
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: So they were engaging in human experimentation, yeah, pretty much,

429
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: and gathering data from torture, which is totally illegal. Yeah.

430
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: But isn't everything about the ghost prison network illegal? Yeah?

431
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: Pretty much. Everything that took place as far as the

432
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: CIA was concerned after two thousand one was illegal. And

433
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: it's not like we're little babes in the woods. It's

434
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: not like the CIA has just been, you know, on

435
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: the up and up since then. But this is what

436
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: this is. So this is recent, this is going on

437
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: now still, I imagine. Yeah, there was another joint study,

438
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: a two d and twenty six page report published in

439
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: January of this year, and um, it's a joint study

440
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: by this Well, there's like four different groups I won't

441
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: read all of them, all human rights groups, and they said,

442
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: of a particular concern to the authors, I'm gonna read

443
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 1: this verbatim, beyond the overall illegality of the entire project

444
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: conceived and executed by the Bush administration is the fate

445
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: of dozens of men held in secret prisons run by

446
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 1: the CIA or transferred to CIA prisons. So they estimate

447
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: you said a couple of dozen. You said a couple dozen?

448
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: I thought, did I know? They're saying that ninety four

449
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: prisoners um had been redacted and had enhanced interrogation techniques

450
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: to varying degrees performed on twenty eight of the ninety four.

451
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: So this was part of the whole torture memo thing.

452
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: How is it that low? I would think it would

453
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: be way more than that. Yeah, you know, I would too,

454
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: So well that's what they found out, So who knows,

455
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 1: it may have been more good good times. Yeah, yeah,

456
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: it's weird. America in the twenty one centuries was a

457
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: weird place. The first decade was odd, Yeah, if you

458
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: ask me. But Obama's trying to shut these down, and

459
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: I think has for the most part. Yeah. Well, see,

460
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 1: I don't but I don't know. But I'm not I'm

461
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 1: not saying that there's not, you know, pinky stuff going

462
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: on there too. Definitely not again, Babes in the Woods.

463
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: This episode of stuff you should know. It's brought to

464
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: you by go to meeting the affordable way to meet

465
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: with clients and colleagues for your free thirty day trial.

466
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: Does it go to meeting dot com slash stuff You

467
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: got anything else? Uh no, I'm good. If you want

468
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: to learn more, Um, you can read my two thousand

469
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: seven article. Uh was there was there a secret CIA

470
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: prison network? Just type in CIA in prison in the

471
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: handysearch bart how stuff works dot com and that takes us,

472
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: of course to listener Maile, No, no, Josh, oh yeah,

473
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: We're gonna do just a little quickie New York recap

474
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: for those of our friends who could not be there. Dude,

475
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: New York was hugeog. It was odd and weird and

476
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: surreal and awesome. One of the things I learned about

477
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: our fans, um at least our fans in the Brooklyn area. Yeah. Um,

478
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: they're very self aware, in self conscious people, and that

479
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: makes them highly relatable to us. So, like the question,

480
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,239
Speaker 1: the biggest question I got was this must be very

481
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: weird for you. Huh. I didn't get that much. I

482
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: got it every time, and every time my answer is like, actually,

483
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: it's really weird. Maybe this because you were standing there

484
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: like like twitching. Yeah, yeah, but I got it. A

485
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: lot and it was it was nice that actually I

486
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: found it um disarming. Yeah that's good. Yeah. So we

487
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: you know, everyone knows. We went to New York. We

488
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: had a few media opportunities, we did a few interviews. Um,

489
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: but Monday night was when we had our happy hour

490
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: at the knitting factory in Brooklyn with the Onion, which, dude,

491
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: we couldn't have done any of this without the onion.

492
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: Thank you to Dan and Joe for putting this stuff

493
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: together and just being our buds. Yeah, that was a

494
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: real treat to get to know those guys for sure.

495
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: It was since your sensation, like my dad, It was

496
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: a real treat, Josh. So we have our happy hour,

497
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: we get there, um, tons of people show up. The

498
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: fire department comes at one point because there were too

499
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: many people there, which was so awesome. I know, I

500
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: was like, what is the somethinge fire? And they weren't

501
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: in a hurry. They were just kind of standing around

502
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: talking to people, like, you know, trying to gauge the

503
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: amount of people. I think. So we got to meet people,

504
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: We got to hang out with people and drink an

505
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: adult beverage with people. We got to meet Mark, Australian

506
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: Wagga Wagon mak Yeah, thanks for the couzy bud. Yeah.

507
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: And we got to meet a lot of people who

508
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: and I remembered a lot of showed up on Monday.

509
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: Sock Ninja, the dude Chris Uh, Chris and his wife

510
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: whose wife was car Chris Wit. Yes, he was there

511
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,479
Speaker 1: with his wife, and they were super awesome. They were

512
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: almost kind of working for us. They were helping with

513
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: the T shirts and taking photographs. Yeah. And there was

514
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: Greg I believe he was kind of helping me too.

515
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: He was helping me like move the line along and everything. Yeah.

516
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: There are some really genuinely cool people here. Everybody there

517
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: was super Yes. Yes, as a matter and I need

518
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: to say special thanks to the banjo dude, remember him, Yeah,

519
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: the guy with the banjo and his girlfriend. They gave us.

520
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: They well, a lot of people brought gifts, and they

521
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: brought me this Uh. She made this really neat little

522
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: egg where she had made a design of thread that

523
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: was on the egg. It was really intricate and very cool.

524
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: And they also met my friend Justin and helped him

525
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: out in some ways. And they were very very cool kids.

526
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: And I can't remember her name, but there's a fan

527
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: that um, both of us met, but I talked to

528
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: her for a while. Grundy she gave us No, not Grundy, Um,

529
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: but hey Grundy. Yes, she gave us a molecular gastronomy book.

530
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, she just wrote in today. I can't

531
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: remember her name. I thank you for it. Yeah, it

532
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: was very awesome. So hopefully possibly look for a molecular

533
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: gastronomy podcast. And I got c d S and like, um,

534
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of bands were like, hey, man,

535
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: listen to this. Yes, and we have to go listen

536
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: to um the Large Hadron podcast. Yes, I have not yet,

537
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: but we need to go check them out. And so

538
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: that was Monday. So then we had our Wednesday flash

539
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: forward Wednesday and we had our all Star Trivia night

540
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn and this was nuts. Yes,

541
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: we had um D people in this big room. There's

542
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: a big venue. It's like a concert venue. Yes, like

543
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: you I could see sticks playing there, um but yeah,

544
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: there's it was standing room only, I would say, about

545
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: five people, and we we cobbled together this really awesome

546
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: trivia team. Go ahead and lower the boom there. Okay,

547
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: So we had Jackson Public who creates this, uh, this

548
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: super cool cartoon called The Venture Brothers you may be

549
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: familiar with. He was one of the head writers on

550
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: the Tick. Yes, and he was brought along by our

551
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: buddy John Hodgman. We can say our buddy, Yeah, we can.

552
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: Now I feel like he's our friend. He is he is,

553
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: you can feel that way. Uh. And I'm really glad

554
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: that John brought um Jackson along because he actually saved

555
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: our our butts like several times with questions. Yeah, we

556
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: would have there would have been like five six questions

557
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: that we wouldn't have gotten had it not been for him.

558
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: And he's a very cool guy. Wyatt see Neck from

559
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: The Daily Show came along. Another buddy, super cool. We

560
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: actually had lunch with Ian Hodgman one day. Yes, the

561
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: the esteemed Joe Randazzo, the editor in chief of The Onion,

562
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: who again we couldn't have done any of this without Joe.

563
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: Was awesome. Joe was there just looking pumped, you know,

564
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: because he works out instead of smokes. Now he's very intimidating.

565
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: And then um Ira Glass, Yes, the man that we

566
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: stare up at in the iTunes rankings every day. Yes,

567
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: Ira Glass was there and on our team not there

568
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: to be rate and he was there on our team.

569
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: He was very cool and I just need to say that.

570
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: He came up to me afterward and was blown away.

571
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: Do your impression show and I don't want to start

572
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: impresonating glass. Your fans are amazing. That was pretty good.

573
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: That was close. He was blown away by the by

574
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: the enthusiasm of the stuff. You should know Army and

575
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: he doesn't. And Randazzo came up to and he's like, man,

576
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: Ira doesn't get this sort of like rock star thing much.

577
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: So he was tickled to be there, I think, and

578
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: have people you know fawning over him and telling him

579
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: how much they loved him. It's which is something he deserves.

580
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: And Hodgman, we mentioned John Hodgman was on our team

581
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: and he was one of the funniest, quickest, witted, smartest

582
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: guys I've ever met in my life. Agreed, I'm with

583
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: you on that one. Like I told my buddy Scotty

584
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 1: about that, and he said, you're really quick, though, man,

585
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, but dude, when I quickly make like

586
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: a fart joke, Hodgeman is that quick. But he references

587
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: like an eighteenth century poet and it fits and it's funny, right,

588
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: it's like a drag racer. Yeah, in like a fifteen

589
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: year old donkey in competition in that one. Thank you Yeah,

590
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: same here, buddy, I got like the twelve year old

591
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: donkey thing going up, all right, So yeah, thank you

592
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: very much everybody who helped that. And it was such

593
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: a success. We had such an a time that we're like,

594
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: why would we spend any more time at the office,

595
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: Let's go hit other cities. So look for other cities

596
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: in the very near future. And we want to know

597
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: where we should go next. So if you have a

598
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: suggestion of what city where we should go that kind

599
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: of thing. You want to play some trivia, let us know.

600
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: Send us an email to stuff Podcast at how stuff

601
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of

602
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: other topics. Is that how stuff works dot com. Want

603
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: more house stuff Works, check out our blogs on the

604
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: house stuff works dot com home page. Brought to you

605
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are

606
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: you