Speaker 1: There, hey, thank you, thank you very much. Would you
Speaker 1: wonderful singers all take a deep breath in with me
Speaker 1: like this and let it out the year's night. Ronald
Speaker 1: Reagan is president. Shows like Miami, Vice and Lifestyles of
Speaker 1: the Rich and Famous debut, We devour self help books
Speaker 1: and play Madonna's material Girl on a loop once again.
Speaker 1: Let's all take a deep breath in together and quiet.
Speaker 1: That's the eighties are overflowing with extravagance and excess power suits,
Speaker 1: mcmansion's and Wall Street brokers, with slick back hair and
Speaker 1: cell phones the size of a dictionary. I want you
Speaker 1: to sit back in your chairs for this next song,
Speaker 1: and all of you close your eyes and you can
Speaker 1: just hear my voice singing this song for you. I'll
Speaker 1: wait till all of you are ready. And Raffie, he's
Speaker 1: in his thirties. He's become the sought after children's musician
Speaker 1: Thanks so Long. His first three albums were huge hits.
Speaker 1: He has a national distribution deal his own record label,
Speaker 1: and he's packing out concert halls thanks for the clouds.
Speaker 1: So he's making real money. He buys a comfortable house
Speaker 1: with a big yard for his dog bundles fancy restaurants
Speaker 1: and fine wine become part of his daily life. Raffie
Speaker 1: has it all. Thanks so Lord, ands for all, Thanks
Speaker 1: for all come. So why does he feel like something's missing?
Speaker 1: I'm Chris Garcia and this is Finding Raffie, a ten
Speaker 1: part series from My Heart Radio and Fatherly in partnership
Speaker 1: with Rococo Punch about the life, philosophy, and the work
Speaker 1: of Raffie, the man behind the music. I was brought
Speaker 1: to a place of wonderment. I mean I had everything
Speaker 1: I've ever wanted in life, including being married to the
Speaker 1: the cheerleader from Arrival High School. I had a successful
Speaker 1: career now. Ralphie wrote Thanks a Lot in ninety at
Speaker 1: a time when he and his wife deb were literally
Speaker 1: living the dream. And listening to the song, you can
Speaker 1: hear so many emotions. Rafie is reflective and vulnerable, maybe
Speaker 1: even a little sad. I didn't want to just keep
Speaker 1: doing more of the same, because I'm not that kind
Speaker 1: of person. I'm not a well, let's do more of
Speaker 1: the same now. I'm not like that. I'm a person
Speaker 1: who grows with experience and then wonders what's next. So
Speaker 1: I remember in meditation, praying to the divine saying, You've
Speaker 1: given me everything I've ever wanted. What can I do
Speaker 1: for you? How might I proceed in a way that
Speaker 1: feels like service? I remember that moment and then, as
Speaker 1: if in an answer, I was guided towards writing a
Speaker 1: little song about a wee white whale on the goal
Speaker 1: and all the goodness that came from that song and
Speaker 1: that album, And I still listen to that album on
Speaker 1: occasion I'm blown away, how beautiful. I'd like to sing,
Speaker 1: Davy bluego with you, hump bam ba ba ba ba
Speaker 1: ba ba baaa, Baby Baluga in the deep blue sea,
Speaker 1: you swim so wild, and you swim so free heaven
Speaker 1: above and see below, and a little white whale along
Speaker 1: the gold, Baby Blue got Oh, Baby Baluga is the water.
Speaker 1: Baby Belugat was an overnight sensation. It's still one of
Speaker 1: Raphae's most famous songs. He wrote it as a tribute
Speaker 1: to Cavna, a beluga whale he'd seen at the Vancouver
Speaker 1: Public Aquarium. I remember doing a my first cross Canada
Speaker 1: promotion tour of an album. Was was for Baby Blue Gut.
Speaker 1: I remember being in Edmonton, Alberta uh and I had
Speaker 1: eight interviews and one day that was whoa. That was
Speaker 1: a lot. So I have sensed that there was something special,
Speaker 1: but you couldn't know until the years passed how big
Speaker 1: it was going to be. You couldn't imagine. Then you
Speaker 1: curl up, snug in your water, b the moon is shine.
Speaker 1: That song fast forwarded Raffie stardom. It connected with parents
Speaker 1: and their kids, an audience who was craving really good music.
Speaker 1: Suddenly everyone wanted a piece of Raffie, and advertisers wanted
Speaker 1: a piece of his fans and a little white way
Speaker 1: along the gold. You're just a little white way along
Speaker 1: the gold. Ralphie says. He was asked to play some
Speaker 1: famous venues, places like Madison Square Garden. It was a
Speaker 1: sign he'd hit the big time. But rather than join
Speaker 1: the likes of Bruce Springsteen and the Rolling Stones, Ralphie
Speaker 1: said no because the audience would be full of very
Speaker 1: very young children in a very huge environment, not the
Speaker 1: best environment for them, let alone me as a performer
Speaker 1: trying to reach them. Rapie couldn't stomach the fact that
Speaker 1: his face would be projected on massive screens just so
Speaker 1: kids sitting in the nosebleeds could catch a glimpse of him. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm talking about a musical performance in a hockey rink
Speaker 1: in front of twenty people. Come on, I guess who
Speaker 1: was like, it's not my idea of a good time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: especially I feel like with a crowd that young, it
Speaker 1: might be it might be difficult for everyone. That's exactly.
Speaker 1: And Chris, it's not even a concert hall. I don't
Speaker 1: even have a good acoustics. Come on, you know everything
Speaker 1: about it would be a challenge. Why would I throw
Speaker 1: myself into that? To me, my music for children and
Speaker 1: families has always been about the music, about the feelings,
Speaker 1: qualities and the songs that play in the minds and
Speaker 1: hearts of the very young. Raphie always put his fans first,
Speaker 1: and as his audience grew, he found that he needed
Speaker 1: to protect them even more. This is the rugged New
Speaker 1: g I Joe Adventure Team, Dane Joy Danger, Hide the
Speaker 1: Way Out. Here comes a Mathematics the Car with a Brain.
Speaker 1: Now make a much night? No. I remember they used
Speaker 1: to be television shows on Saturday morning for kids. They're
Speaker 1: often cartoon shows or other you know, and often you
Speaker 1: couldn't tell the commercial from the show itself. Highly exploitative
Speaker 1: of the young child who is not old enough to
Speaker 1: know the pitch aimed at their innocent minds. The primary
Speaker 1: goal of advertising and marketing is to train kids to
Speaker 1: become consumers. Basically, the corporate world discovered children as not
Speaker 1: just a viable market, but a really big market. Susan
Speaker 1: Lynn knows all about this. She teaches psychiatry at Harvard
Speaker 1: Medical School, and she spent her career researching the harmful
Speaker 1: effects marketing has on kids. Marketing to children is a
Speaker 1: factor in so many of the problems facing children today,
Speaker 1: childhood obesity, eating disorders for coach, sexuality, youth violence, family stress.
Speaker 1: Susan says children have always been marketed to through their televisions,
Speaker 1: but before the eighties, there were federal guidelines prohibiting how
Speaker 1: kids were targeted with ads. They were considered too young
Speaker 1: to understand the difference between commercials and entertainment. But as
Speaker 1: Raphae was reaching peak success, that all changed. The GET
Speaker 1: administration deregulated children's television, and according to Susan, all hell
Speaker 1: broke loose and it became fine to create a program
Speaker 1: for the sole purpose of selling toys. So that just
Speaker 1: changed everything. That's how we got shows like g I.
Speaker 1: Joe and My Little pony half hour infomercials masquerading as
Speaker 1: children's entertainment. Raphie had an audience of young kids, and
Speaker 1: he couldn't stand marketing to them that way. When we
Speaker 1: think of a young child's impressionable mind, respecting that young
Speaker 1: child for the whole person that young children are, why
Speaker 1: would anyone who cares about this young audience, who treats
Speaker 1: them with respect, who holds them with respect for their dignity,
Speaker 1: Why would anyone seek to exploit their innocence, their naivete
Speaker 1: These were the beginning seeds of Ralphie would later call
Speaker 1: child honoring, a philosophy he would fully embrace years later.
Speaker 1: He felt that kids should be respected as whole human
Speaker 1: beings and that they shouldn't be marketed to. You know,
Speaker 1: we who want to give young children our best in
Speaker 1: all our interactions, in all our capacities, are relationships with them.
Speaker 1: Our job is to do that with respect. It's just
Speaker 1: that simple. You would no longer exploit your own children
Speaker 1: from monetary gain than you what somebody else's. Isn't that right?
Speaker 1: In essence, the childhood years should be full of creativity
Speaker 1: and exploration. Ralphie would later go on to author a
Speaker 1: book about this philosophy. It included a chapter written by Susan.
Speaker 1: This is gonna sound simplistic, but I believe the children
Speaker 1: are people, and they're not teeny tiny adults and little bodies.
Speaker 1: Their minds are growing and developing. They're deserving of dignity,
Speaker 1: and they're deserving of kindness. They're deserving of opportunities for
Speaker 1: self expression. And Raphi shares those beliefs, and consumerism ran
Speaker 1: head on into those beliefs. Children are inundated, Our lives
Speaker 1: are intundated with commercials. We know that. But to try
Speaker 1: and take the most basic steps to minimize that exposure
Speaker 1: to commercial brands is a good thing. And we can
Speaker 1: all do it, especially those of us who are successful. Right,
Speaker 1: especially us, we're making enough money. If we don't say no,
Speaker 1: who will? I mean, really, all of us should. We
Speaker 1: shouldn't be in it for to to earn an income
Speaker 1: via exploitation. That is not okay, But soon Ralphie would
Speaker 1: have to put his philosophy to work. Before him, children's
Speaker 1: music wasn't really seen as its own distinct genre. Ralphie
Speaker 1: felt like kids weren't taken seriously, and what passed for
Speaker 1: children's entertainment was just a bunch of noise. Children's entertainment
Speaker 1: in some circles used to be viewed as a magician
Speaker 1: who put on a magic show. And he would say,
Speaker 1: I'm going to count to three and you're gonna say
Speaker 1: aberca dabra, And he'd go one to three and then
Speaker 1: people go abricadabra. He'd say louder, and then they'd say
Speaker 1: louder louder. Kind of said to myself, what the heck
Speaker 1: is that? I'm not doing that? You know? So, if
Speaker 1: I'm not doing that, what am I doing? Okay? I'm
Speaker 1: singing songs? Which songs? Am I singing songs that children
Speaker 1: can make their own that they can join me in?
Speaker 1: Ralphie stood out. His success put a spotlight on his
Speaker 1: young audience, new listeners who were hungry for good music,
Speaker 1: and advertisers were paying attention. As Ralphie's fame grew, he
Speaker 1: held fast onto his values, even if there was a cost. Sure,
Speaker 1: I knew I was probably saying goodbye to millions of
Speaker 1: dollars of potential revenue, but so what, That's not what
Speaker 1: my music makings about. Rafie had a big Hollywood moment.
Speaker 1: His song Raining Like Magic was featured in the movie
Speaker 1: fern Gully, The Last Rainforest. It was an animated film
Speaker 1: starring Tim Curry and Robin Williams. The story is about
Speaker 1: a fairy who tries to save a rainforest from laggers.
Speaker 1: It was Raffi's first time singing in a film. The
Speaker 1: movie spoke to Raffie. He thought anyone who saw the
Speaker 1: film would demand that rainforests be protected. It was a
Speaker 1: cause he'd grow to care about deeply. It felt like
Speaker 1: a no brainer. A few years later, Raffie says he
Speaker 1: got another call from Hollywood. This time the offer was
Speaker 1: more complicated. Dream Works, the powerhouse known for Shrek and
Speaker 1: Kung Fu Panda, had an idea. They wanted to make
Speaker 1: an animated movie about Baby Beluga, raff He's hit song.
Speaker 1: It was the kind of deal that would splash Raffie's
Speaker 1: beloved whale on screens all over the world. It had
Speaker 1: the potential to turn him into an international star and
Speaker 1: make Raffie crazy rich. We asked two questions. Would the
Speaker 1: film be directly advertised two kids via fast food outlets
Speaker 1: in every other form of direct advertising? Well, the answer
Speaker 1: was yes. And would would there be a whole host
Speaker 1: of cheap plastic made characters from the show sold probably
Speaker 1: through fast food outlets. Again, yes, well, that's all we
Speaker 1: needed to hear. Turning down an offer of a Baby
Speaker 1: Bluegot film from the makers of Shrek was easy. It
Speaker 1: took no time. But you said yes to the Fern
Speaker 1: Gully movie. How are those different? Well, only my song
Speaker 1: Reigning like Magic is in the Fern Gully movie. That's
Speaker 1: what I said yes to, So that's understandable. Um, the
Speaker 1: Baby Blue movie is entirely different in that that's that
Speaker 1: would be a film inspired by a song that I wrote.
Speaker 1: And when I learned that the way the film would
Speaker 1: be marketed would be exploitative of young children and their families,
Speaker 1: I said no. Trying to understand what it means, um
Speaker 1: for you to exploit your audience for commercial gain, Like,
Speaker 1: what where is the line I don't do it for you?
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't do it. You don't do it never?
Speaker 1: How can you even ask that? Of course, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't. I've never done it. I wasn't accusing you
Speaker 1: of it at all. Ever, you know, No, No, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't do it. I've never done it. I don't.
Speaker 1: That's not what I'm about. I can't and I will
Speaker 1: not participate in ventures that would do that. But you
Speaker 1: felt comfortable with providing a song to friend Gully that
Speaker 1: was okay, Well, yeah, why wouldn't it be, well you
Speaker 1: you wrote a great song for it. But and at
Speaker 1: the same time it was fern Gully was marketed directly
Speaker 1: to kids and had a pizza hut meal. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: no not. I wasn't aware of any of that at
Speaker 1: the time. In fact, if you look at what year
Speaker 1: it was, I think you know that there wasn't even
Speaker 1: a conversation. So you know, if my understanding these things
Speaker 1: grew along the decades, then good for me. But no, no,
Speaker 1: those things weren't even discussed at the time. At the time,
Speaker 1: I was happy to be contributing a song to a
Speaker 1: film that was, you know, looking at the devastation of
Speaker 1: um forest ecologies and so on, and and if indeed
Speaker 1: it was marketed in ways that were not what I
Speaker 1: would choose, I'm sorry about that. But I wasn't even
Speaker 1: aware of some of that at the time. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: hard to look back and have to dissect why you
Speaker 1: made the decisions you did, And I get it. I'm
Speaker 1: an entertainer. It's impossible to understand the ripple effects of
Speaker 1: every decision you make, and yet every decision you make
Speaker 1: is scrutinized by the public. But to the people around Raffie,
Speaker 1: he did live what he preached. Michael Kreeber is a
Speaker 1: musician and composer and a longtime collaborator with Raffie. To
Speaker 1: you can say, it's integrity, you know, his message, what
Speaker 1: he believes in is what he does, and that's the
Speaker 1: best word for it. I can I can find he
Speaker 1: has integrity and he comes from a profound caring, you know,
Speaker 1: for kids and for the planet and the issues that
Speaker 1: are close to his heart. Psychologists Susan Lynn was also
Speaker 1: paying attention to Raffie's decisions. Taking a stand against commercialism
Speaker 1: was actually it might have been in the best interests
Speaker 1: of his soul, but it wasn't in the best interest
Speaker 1: of his pocketbook. That's impressive to me. You know, he
Speaker 1: could have made a lot more money if he had,
Speaker 1: you know, done the Baby Bluga movie and commercialized it.
Speaker 1: There aren't a lot of artists who have done that.
Speaker 1: Raphie was trying to change the world by turning down
Speaker 1: one movie or endorsement deal at a time. But it
Speaker 1: was kind of like David against Goliath because the advertising
Speaker 1: industry was busy teaching kids how to nag their parents
Speaker 1: more effectively. It's called pastor power. They found that it
Speaker 1: was helpful if kids had reasons why they wanted something,
Speaker 1: like one example they use is g Mom, I really
Speaker 1: want Barbie's dream house because Barbie and Ken want to
Speaker 1: get married and raise the family. And then they identified
Speaker 1: persistence nagging, which is gimme, gimme, gimme, gim to give me.
Speaker 1: And one of an organization that worked around consumption did
Speaker 1: a study and found that there were ten and eleven
Speaker 1: year old kids who are nagging fifty times for one thing,
Speaker 1: and nagging is exhausting. All your parents listening right now,
Speaker 1: you know exactly what Susan is talking about. And Susan says,
Speaker 1: nagging effects how kids develop, undermining their critical thinking and
Speaker 1: emotional stability. Starting a baby off when their brains are
Speaker 1: just beginning to make connections, and when we know that
Speaker 1: habits and behaviors can be formed in early childhood, and
Speaker 1: to start them off, turning to screens for stimulation and
Speaker 1: for soothing instead of learning how to self soothe or
Speaker 1: to turn to other people or or the the outside
Speaker 1: world for a stimulation and for soothing. That works very
Speaker 1: well for the corporation, the toy industry, the media industry,
Speaker 1: and today the tech industry, but not so well for
Speaker 1: for babies and young children. It's the opposite of Raffi song,
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Thanks so long, Thanks for the sun
Speaker 1: and sky. That's a celebration of nature and the world
Speaker 1: around us. It's about gratitude and wonderment. But Susan says,
Speaker 1: advertising not only interrupts children's development, but it also takes
Speaker 1: advantage of our human flaws, and marketers count on selfishness.
Speaker 1: They count on me first, they count on taking care
Speaker 1: of yourself, and then they count on being able to
Speaker 1: convince people that they need whatever product in order to
Speaker 1: take care of themselves. Altruism is not part of commercial culture. Thanks,
Speaker 1: thanks for them night, Thanks a lot, Thanks for the stars.
Speaker 1: So what you're presenting when you present music or art
Speaker 1: to any audience is about the art. It's about the
Speaker 1: music and it's not to be confused or muddied by
Speaker 1: something else that you have no business associating with. It
Speaker 1: right for any audience of any age, especially for young children,
Speaker 1: because they're learning about how the world works, how the
Speaker 1: adults in their lives are conducting themselves. Thanks for the
Speaker 1: people everywhere, Thanks a lot, Thanks for all and for
Speaker 1: One of Raffie's most beloved events was the International Children's
Speaker 1: Festival in Vancouver. It's the longest running kids arts festival
Speaker 1: in the world. At its height, nine children and their
Speaker 1: parents gathered for music, theater, and puppetry that highlighted kids
Speaker 1: creativity and exploration, and for years, Raffie was the headliner
Speaker 1: of the event. They used to keep increasing the size
Speaker 1: of the tent that I would perform in the Raffi Tent,
Speaker 1: as they called it, because of the demand for shows.
Speaker 1: It was just amazing. I would do like eight shows
Speaker 1: in one week or ten sometimes. But all that changed
Speaker 1: in two thousands. Out of the blue, suddenly I was
Speaker 1: informed that oh yeah, uh, a car company was gonna
Speaker 1: have its cars on the lock of the festival. I thought,
Speaker 1: what the heck is this? I pulled out so fast.
Speaker 1: I was really stunned and shocked, and well, I felt hurt.
Speaker 1: I felt personally hurt that they do this. He didn't
Speaker 1: want anything to do with that, so he wanted the
Speaker 1: music to speak for yourself and the messages to come
Speaker 1: through on their own without you know, commercialism attached to it.
Speaker 1: Musician Michael Creeper says he never saw Raffie waver from
Speaker 1: his beliefs, and together they played some impressive gigs like
Speaker 1: Broadway and Radio City Music Hall. Yeah, Broadway, it was
Speaker 1: a big deal. That was thrilling. And to play all
Speaker 1: that beautiful music with these kids. He had a great choir,
Speaker 1: and the choir was assembled from the children of all
Speaker 1: these luminaries around New York like people he contacted. Everybody
Speaker 1: is super friendly. This was a pretty heavy time. They
Speaker 1: teamed up with Phil Ramone, a legendary producer who'd work
Speaker 1: with Billy Joel, Paul Simon, and Elton John. But even
Speaker 1: with all the attention the Hollywood stars, the media, spotlight,
Speaker 1: and the pressures that come with it, Michael says, Rafie
Speaker 1: was never tempted to commercialize his music. He's shown that
Speaker 1: there's a respectful way to treat that audience. That's really
Speaker 1: the key word, you know, It's a respectful way. We're
Speaker 1: not trying to take advantage you to make them buy stuff.
Speaker 1: He's a man of principle that to me is a
Speaker 1: very high principle. And when he talked about it. He's
Speaker 1: very passionate about it, and he says, you know, I
Speaker 1: just reaching not believed marketing two kids. It's not gonna
Speaker 1: happen with my stuff because it's you know, it's not fair.
Speaker 1: They're they're too vulnerable that they were exposed to millions
Speaker 1: of images as we know of day and night, day
Speaker 1: and night, most of it very shallow and commercial. It's
Speaker 1: people are selling you stuff, right, so why why give
Speaker 1: them more um and call it something to do with Rappi.
Speaker 1: He didn't want anything to do with that. Michael admits
Speaker 1: that walking away from lucrative gigs, and especially ones that
Speaker 1: really mean something to you is not so simple. Of course,
Speaker 1: it's hard, and I think the entertainment energy is gigantic.
Speaker 1: You know, if people are going to offer you money
Speaker 1: to endorse their product, or they're going to say we'll
Speaker 1: put on a big concert, it's just that our logal
Speaker 1: will be there. It makes it harder, right, for sure,
Speaker 1: it's harder. But maybe this is where Ralph he had
Speaker 1: an advantage. Michael says Rafi had built a loyal following
Speaker 1: before powerful advertisers came calling, and he gambled that his
Speaker 1: fans would show up at his concerts and buy his albums,
Speaker 1: even if he didn't commercialize his name. No, I don't
Speaker 1: know if those traces were easy for him, but he
Speaker 1: would know that I can sell records from their merit.
Speaker 1: I can do concerts because I'm a great entertainer. They
Speaker 1: will come, you know. So I think he knew that
Speaker 1: and therefore was able to resist some of the commercialism.
Speaker 1: I understood that I had to protect this music. I
Speaker 1: did what I needed to do to protect the artistic integrity,
Speaker 1: which basically meant that I was going to be in
Speaker 1: charge of how that album got sold and how it
Speaker 1: got advertised. It would never be advertised to kids, and
Speaker 1: it never was. As the promo posted that I designed
Speaker 1: said a delightful new children's recording. That's all that's said
Speaker 1: in the front cover. All I Really Need is a
Speaker 1: song in my heart. If you listen to enough of
Speaker 1: Raffie's music, you start to hear the messages the seeds
Speaker 1: Raffi was planting. Take Raffi song All I Really Need
Speaker 1: creen were drinking. Ralphie wrote it at a time when
Speaker 1: he had the big house in the flush bank account,
Speaker 1: a time when he was feeling uneasy with the pressure
Speaker 1: to make money off his audience by serving them up
Speaker 1: to advertisers. This was Ralphie's protest song, his way of
Speaker 1: pushing back against greed and commercialism. As Michael Creeper says,
Speaker 1: Ralphie's music is sort of like an onion. Peel back
Speaker 1: each layer and you find deeper meaning. The song sounds simple,
Speaker 1: but the message is pretty um. They're very universal messages
Speaker 1: and they're they're actually very profound messages when you think
Speaker 1: about it. All I really need is well, what is it?
Speaker 1: You know? Okay, well I need to eat and I
Speaker 1: need I needed love. Kind of a paragon of integrity
Speaker 1: to do what he does, because if you slip up
Speaker 1: and it's sort of, well, probs, just another commercial guy,
Speaker 1: but he's not. He cares about what he's talking about,
Speaker 1: what he's thinking about. Not everybody that has that kind
Speaker 1: of guts to do it. It's quite a bit of
Speaker 1: weight in your shoulders. You know. All of this is
Speaker 1: just an expression of love, respectful love. That's all it is,
Speaker 1: respectful love and action. We can all do it. Raphie's
Speaker 1: refusal to market two Kids was his first big awakening,
Speaker 1: but what came next would make him stop performing altogether.
Speaker 1: Next time. On Finding Raffie, we did our first program
Speaker 1: for television on global warming. I realized that global warming,
Speaker 1: we called it then, was a real threat. I called
Speaker 1: it in my script a slow motion catastrophe. I knew
Speaker 1: that we had to get going on it immediately. And
Speaker 1: we heard about this meeting and thought, wow, you know
Speaker 1: there's going to be all of these old men sitting
Speaker 1: around talking about our future. Somebody should be there to
Speaker 1: represent what's truly at stake. Finding Raffie is a production
Speaker 1: in My Heart Radio and Fatherly, in partnership with Rococo Punch.
Speaker 1: It's produced by Katherine Finalosa, Meredith Hannig, and James Trout.
Speaker 1: Productionists since from Charlotte Livingston. Alex French is our story consultant.
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Andrea swahe Emily Foreman is our editor.
Speaker 1: Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Raphae's music is courtesy
Speaker 1: of Troubadour Music Special thanks to Kim Layton at Troubadour.
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Jessica Albert and John Parotti at
Speaker 1: Rococo Punch, Ty Trimble, Mike Rothman and Jeff Eisenman at
Speaker 1: Fatherly and Me Chris Garcia, thank you for listening.