1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Family Secrets as a production of I Heart Radio. One day, 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: I decided to organize mama's number running materials and went 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: through the house, gathering everything together into one shallow cardboard box. 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: I was enamored of my own organizational skills and decided 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: to add one final touch on the side of the box. 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: Using bright pink nail polish, I carefully painted in boxing 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: letters Mama's numbers. I probably showed this to my mother, 8 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: impressed with myself for remembering the possessive apostrophe. She took 9 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,959 Speaker 1: one look and said, you can't put my business out 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: in the street like that. Looking back, this was the 11 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: moment when I became consciously aware that I must keep 12 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: my admiration from my mother's work a private experience. Before 13 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: I had known to keep her livelihood of secret, but 14 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: hadn't yet formed an opinion of feldny pride in when 15 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: Mamma actually did for a living. Now I understood that 16 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: my pride for her also had to be kept a secret, 17 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: as did all the evidence of her work. That's Brigette M. 18 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: Davis reading from her memoir The World according to Fanny Davis. 19 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: Fanny is Brigette's mom, and Fanny was a numbers runner 20 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: in Detroit in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. This 21 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: is how she supported her family in style and provided 22 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: for their future. And Brigette grew up knowing one thing 23 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,919 Speaker 1: for sure. Never ever was she to breathe a word 24 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: to a soul about what her mama did for a living. 25 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: I'm Danny should euro and this is family secrets, the 26 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we keep 27 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. At 28 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: the time I was experiencing it, I thought it was 29 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: normal my childhood because there were many rituals that happened regularly. 30 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: I could listen to my mother on the phone every 31 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: day taking her customers beds, and it was like a 32 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: daytime lullaby. I loved it. It didn't seem odd to 33 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: me at all to hear this recitation of numbers right 34 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: by her, and then every evening we were all going 35 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: to wait to hear what the day's winning numbers were. 36 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: And that's how it worked if you were in a 37 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: household where your parents, in my case, my mom was 38 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: actually a numbers runner. It was simply a precursor to 39 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 1: the lottery, and it existed decades before the state got 40 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: around to taking it over, So that was the way 41 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: that you lived in that kind of elsehold. And I thought, 42 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: in an odd way, the structure was comforting because I 43 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,839 Speaker 1: knew it. To count on, Let's go all the way back, 44 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: literally though, to Detroit the house here. We were in 45 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: this home that was a colonial, four bedroom brick house. 46 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: It was very traditional looking and for us, extremely spacious. 47 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: There was seven of us and all the sisters shared 48 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: a room. My brother had his own room, and then 49 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: there was my parents room, so we all had our space. 50 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: And what I loved about it as a child is 51 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: that it really did have this incredibly fascinating addict where 52 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: I could go up and just play and imagine all 53 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: kinds of things. I was as many writers as a child, 54 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: I was very caught up in my own imagination. I 55 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: could spend hours in my own head, and the attic 56 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: was a great place to do that because I could 57 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: look out that window and see everything in front of me, 58 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: the entire goings on of the street. But the basement 59 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: was the same way. It was this gorgeous space that 60 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: it turns out my mother had uh she renovated it 61 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: so it became like a lounge. And it was the sixties, 62 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: so there was wood paneling, there was a wrap around 63 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: bar that was you know, necessary back then. And because 64 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: I had all these siblings who were teenagers, there were 65 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: what I thought was parties every night. When I looked back, 66 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: it couldn't have been every night, but in my memory 67 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: it was. It was all of my siblings friends coming 68 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: in the side door and running down the steps and 69 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: listening to lots of Motown. You know, we were in Detroit, 70 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 1: so Motown was our soundtrack, and those records were spinning 71 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: regularly constantly, and I remember laughter and people playing cards 72 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: and smoke and you know, this sort of sense that 73 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: it was a social hub. So that was happening, and 74 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: at the same time, my mother was also inviting lots 75 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: of people into the home because she was a magnet 76 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: for people. They loved being around her. She really was 77 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: what we call a pillar of the community, but no 78 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: one used that term. She was just Fanny, Miss Fanny, 79 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: and her doors were open, so people who were really 80 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: wanting to come over and have a meal knew they 81 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: could do that at Fanny's house. If they needed advice, 82 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: they could come to her. If you know, a young 83 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: woman was struggling in her marriage and things were a 84 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: little crazy. My mother would say, why don't you stay 85 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: here a few days until things cool off. So there 86 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: were always these people in the house. My sister used 87 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: to call a Grand Central station. The doorbell was always ringing, 88 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: the doors were swinging open, the phone was going off 89 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: all the time. Describe Fanny for me, I mean, what 90 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: did she look like, what did she wear, what was 91 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: her style, what her voice sounds. So my mom was 92 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: really pretty. I often say that everyone thinks their mother 93 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: is beautiful, but mine really was. And we would say it. 94 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: The girls would say, Mama is prettier than any of us. 95 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: You know. She got the looks, but she wasn't in 96 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: any way arrogant or vain. She was just self assured 97 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: and she was pretty simple in her style in the 98 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: sense that my mom really only wore makeup if she 99 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: was going somewhere special. She wasn't someone to wear makeup. 100 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: She had this beautiful, naturally long, thick hair, which some 101 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: days she would comb and some days she wouldn't. And 102 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: the days she didn't want to comb her hair as 103 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: she put an Aramis scarf around it and cover it up. 104 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: She didn't shy away from luxurious things. She loved minx 105 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: and she liked beautiful leather purses before it was a thing. 106 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: She also liked to lounge around the house in these 107 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: gorgeous I call them ensembles, but they were basically beautiful 108 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: gowns and matching robes, and she had an array of them, 109 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: and they were so pretty. My favorite was just lace 110 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: trimmed with this ribbon woven through it. Gorgeous, you know, 111 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: white with pink trim. Yeah, sitting there looking lovely but 112 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: taking care of business. Brigette and her family lived in 113 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: the heart of Detroit. Fanny bought the house in from 114 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: a man named Mr. Prince during a time of white flight. 115 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: Whites were leaving the city and droves and they were 116 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: selling their homes to blacks. So this was a neighborhood 117 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: called Russell Woods, upscale, but not as tony as Gross Point, 118 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: where the automagnates lived. In the nine sixties, the auto 119 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: industry in Detroit was doing what it was supposed to do, 120 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: creating a solid middle class, and much of that middle 121 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: class was black, backed by strong unions and able to 122 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: buy their own homes. Then, as the sixties progressed, and 123 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement really got a foot. Um. You 124 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: could see, you could feel the changes. I was just 125 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: a child, but I could feel this thing that was rumbling. Um. 126 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: This these tensions that I couldn't have given a name to, 127 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: but they were there, these racial tensions happening in the city. 128 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: And of course it all combusted in ninety seven with 129 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 1: the race riots, as they've called them in the media. 130 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: Detroitters called the uprising or the Great Rebellion. But that 131 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: was the moment when um, things really as in many 132 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: other cities, urban centers, in the city, in the country, Uh, 133 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 1: things really came to a head. And there were riots 134 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: that lasted across five days. And you have memories of this. 135 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: I have memories. You were a little kid. I was 136 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: a kid, but I definitely remember it. It was sixty seven, 137 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: forgive me, you know, King was assassinated and the rise 138 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: of sixty seven, and those years collapsed for me because 139 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: they were both traumatic, and I was seven and eight, 140 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: and I remember them almost as though they merge in 141 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: my mind. One long year of just trauma. Yeah, that's 142 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: what trauma does. We're going to pause for a moment. 143 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: So there's a story about the way Fanny was able 144 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: to buy that house from Mr Prince, a story that 145 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: Brigette really only learned when she began to do research 146 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: for her book. It says something about the way our 147 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: parents present our lives to us, and the way as 148 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: children we don't tend to question this stories we received. 149 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: In Brigette's case, all her life, what she knew was 150 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: that her mother bought their beautiful family home on contract, 151 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: as it was called. She essentially went into this arrangement 152 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: one on one with the seller Mr Prince, and didn't 153 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: involve a bank, and essentially bought it from him that way, 154 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: so that she paid him a mortgage. Every month paid 155 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: on the mortgage, and when she was done paying for it, 156 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: it was hers. And it seemed to me that she 157 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: was making that choice because she had this unorthodox profession. 158 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: I always thought, well into my adulthood that well, she 159 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: couldn't show a pay stuff. My dad wasn't able to work, 160 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: he was disabled, so she had to figure out this 161 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: creative way to buy home. It was only years later, 162 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: while working on this book that I found out that, 163 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: in fact, because she was a quote unquote Negro woman, 164 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: she wasn't allowed to get a mortgage in the ways 165 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: that most Americans can because there was this thing called redlining, 166 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: and it it enabled the Federal Housing Authority to impose 167 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: these boundaries around so called high risk communities and neighborhoods. 168 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: What made it high risk? If one black family lived 169 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: in that community, it was high risk. So what did 170 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: that mean? They wouldn't ensure the loans that banks were lending. 171 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: So banks could say, we're not lending to you because 172 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: we can't get this loan insured by the f h A. 173 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: It's too risky. And so it trickled throughout the real 174 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: estate community. Right realtors wouldn't show homes just two blacks 175 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: and certain communities, or sell their homes to them, sell 176 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: certain homes to them. And so imagine having the means, 177 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: but not being able to buy a house only because 178 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: of the color of your skin. You know, this thing 179 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 1: that is the symbol of your American dream. It really 180 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: is your foothold into the middle class. And so that 181 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: infuriated me when I learned it. Never did I hear 182 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: my mother talk about it that way or in that context. 183 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: But I have to tell you, it's pretty predatory because 184 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: it is essentially like renting your home, so you have 185 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: all the risk of renting and none of the none 186 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: of the benefits of owning. You put a huge deposit 187 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: down and you never actually build equity in the home. 188 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: The seller continues to hold the title and you don't 189 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: get the d to the property until you've completely paid 190 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: for it um And so if you, for instance, can't 191 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: make one payment, if you're late one month, the seller 192 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: can take the house back. So in fact, Fanny was 193 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: creating this, there was tremendous risk, and what she was 194 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: doing it was the only thing she could do to 195 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: buy a house. But there was this tremendous risk, and 196 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: yet you and your siblings I didn't know it. We 197 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: didn't know it was. It was there somewhere, you know, 198 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: thrumming in the underbelly of it all. Yeah. I suspect 199 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: my older siblings understood more because they were older. Now, 200 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: what I felt was Mr Prince coming to our home 201 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: every month to collect his mortgage payment. And I look 202 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: back on that and I thought, did he not trust 203 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: her to send him a check, you know, or he 204 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: was still checking on his investment in a way. While 205 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: there you go, there's that possibility too. And I didn't 206 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: know why, but I just felt every month that he 207 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: came that I was almost holding my breath until he 208 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: left to be able to say, okay, everything's all right. 209 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: It was serious business. Fanny had bought this home in 210 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: a risky manner and she had to trust that Mr 211 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: Prince would do right by her. On top of this, 212 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: her livelihood was risky when it came to her income. 213 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: There were no guarantees and she didn't have the space 214 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: to miss a single payment or she could lose everything. 215 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: Describe what running the numbers is for the uninitiated. Running 216 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: the numbers is a a way of being engaged in 217 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: this entirely underground but sprawling lottery business that proliferated throughout 218 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: much of the country underneath the radar, and it generated 219 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: millions of dollars in many cities throughout the country. It 220 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: was literally exactly like today's lottery in that today you 221 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: can go and play a lottery at any corner bodega 222 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: and you can say, here's three digits, I want to 223 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: play nine too, and I want to play them for 224 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: a dollar, And if those numbers come out, it's all 225 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: electronic now, so they just randomly choose those numbers. If 226 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: the number comes out, you could win five dollars because 227 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: the payoff is five one. Here's how it worked back then. 228 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: The winning numbers were arrived at using a convoluted system 229 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: involving the racing forms from certain race tracks like the 230 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: fair Grounds in New Orleans or Aqueduct in New York. 231 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: Once the winning numbers were determined, someone high up in 232 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: Detroit's racket received it through a long distance call from 233 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: the numbers service boss in Chicago. The winning numbers hit 234 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: the streets and spread by word of mouth. Numbers men 235 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: told their bankers, who told their bookers, who told their customers, 236 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: who told other customers, and so on. One of Brigette's 237 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: jobs was to call her mother's customers and give them 238 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: the winning combination. That system, which either way in New 239 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: York they called numbers, is exactly what my mom was 240 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: doing back in Detroit as a numbers runner. She and 241 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: many many others were basically engaged in and sort of 242 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: unofficial knows. I like to call it an informal lottery system. 243 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: You know, there was a precursor to even the numbers. 244 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: There was a game called Policy that was completely invented 245 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: by and run by whites, and it proliferated throughout the 246 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: country prior to this new game that was introduced by 247 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: one man in Harlem who came up with an elegant system, 248 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: a lot less complicated than what had come before it. 249 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: So this black man creates the numbers, and it thrives 250 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: in Harlem, and it moves across the country, and yes, 251 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: within a very short amount of time, others wanted in 252 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: because it generated millions of dollars. We saw it as 253 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: this communal business that was turning dollars over in the 254 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: community many times, right, and providing all of these legitimate 255 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: services through that money. Um. So it's like I knew 256 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: that it was. I now know that it was happening 257 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: everywhere and in many communities. Before they moved to Detroit. 258 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: Before the numbers running and began, Brigette's parents, like millions 259 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: of other blacks, migrated north as part of the second 260 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: wave of the Great Migration. This was the mid nineteen fifties, 261 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: and at that point they had three small children. When 262 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: they arrived in Detroit from Nashville. Brigette's father thought he'd 263 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: find work in the factories, which he did, but it 264 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: was difficult, inconsistent. Eventually he became disabled and couldn't work regularly. 265 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: So what was Fanny to do. My mom has these 266 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: young children, she's left her home. You know, all they've 267 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: ever known was in Nashville, air she her family had 268 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: been for generations. My mom's grandfather was born into slavery 269 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: in Nashville. That's how far back their roots went. So 270 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: she's in this new northern city, tough place. The discrimination 271 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: has its own flavor, and she's not prepared for it. 272 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: And she checks out the landscape and realizes that se 273 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: Detroit's black women are either doing day work, which means, 274 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, cleaning white women's homes, or they are in 275 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: really low wrong jobs in these factories, making less than 276 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: the men, or they're cleaning offices at night. And as 277 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: she used to say, it seemed risky to her to 278 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: not figure out something else, because the idea of leaving 279 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: her children at home while she took one of these 280 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: jobs for very low pay and letting them raise themselves 281 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: was not an option. And so she started looking for 282 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: something else to do. And she didn't have to look 283 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: that far actually, because my mom was pretty observant. She 284 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: was a quick study, and everywhere around her her neighbors 285 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: were playing the numbers, you know, betting their fifty cents, 286 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: their quarter, their dollar, not a lot of money, but 287 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: she saw that it was a brisk business. So as 288 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: a child, you I know your mom is running numbers, 289 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: and it's not remotely hidden from you or your siblings. 290 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: It's it seems like it's almost sort of command central 291 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 1: of the home. You know she's there and and this 292 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: is her job, and she's not remotely ashamed of it. 293 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: Um none of you are, but you also know that 294 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: it must be kept a secret. Yes, I've been asked, 295 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: how is it that your mother never got caught? And 296 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: I don't have an actual answer for that. I think 297 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: she was lucky. But also my mother was really cautious 298 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: and really smart, and I think there were a few 299 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: things that she did to really mitigate, you know, the 300 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: risk of exposure. And one of them was my mother 301 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: only had customers through word of mouth, so she'd only 302 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: take your business if you came highly recommended. There was that, 303 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: and even though we had a household that felt like 304 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: grand central station, my mother was actually careful about who 305 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: came into the house. So there was that piece as well. 306 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: And also she wasn't flashy. She loved beautiful things, but 307 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: she was understated. I think that was really important too, 308 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: and then she had to take some very practical measures. 309 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: My mother had a lovely I say it's lovely because 310 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: I thought it was safe that she kept in her 311 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: bedroom closet. It was a metal safe with the combination lock, 312 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: and that's where she kept the day's proceeds. That's where 313 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,719 Speaker 1: she kept the business. The cash was all in that 314 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: combination lock in her bedroom closet. She also carried a 315 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: pistol in her purse, and there was another one that 316 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: remained in the house in the linen closet underneath the 317 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: islet trimmed table claws and the lace napkins, and we 318 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: all knew it was there, and we understood. We actually 319 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: felt safer knowing it was there, because my mom was 320 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: not only worried about exposure and risk that could lead 321 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: to arrest, she also had to worry about being in 322 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: a cash business and and it getting out that that 323 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: maybe there's a lot of cash and family's house, and 324 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: so there was that precaution as well. You know, she 325 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: was really constantly trying to safeguard against a lot of 326 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: different things. We're going to take a quick break. We'll 327 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. Brishette grows up in a 328 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: mixed race neighborhood and goes to a mixed school. She 329 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: lived on the street that's around the corner from Diana 330 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: Ross and the Supremes. They've all just begun to rise, 331 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: to start them, and all three of the supremes decided 332 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: to buy homes on the same block. Diana Ross gets 333 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: the big corner home. So it's a neighborhood of contrasts 334 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: and also of tensions simmering beneath the surface. I was 335 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: in first grade and I was just in my class, 336 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: showing my teacher and assignment, and she said to me, 337 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: literally out of nowhere, you sure do have a lot 338 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: of shoes. And the thing that was striking is that 339 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: the week before, she had asked me what my father 340 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: did for a living. I'm six years old. I said 341 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: the truth. I said, he doesn't work, which because by 342 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: then he really had become disabled. And then she said, well, 343 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: what does your mother do? Oh my goodness, Um, I 344 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: told her I didn't know, which wasn't true, but I 345 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: knew enough to not tell her the truth. But I 346 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: was nervous. So when she mentioned these shoes the next week, 347 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: you know, you know, even as a child, you have 348 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: a sense of things. Something's not right here. I thought, 349 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: all right, just not and you don't know what else 350 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: to do, Just not when she tells you that. And 351 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: then she really surprised me and said, before you sit down, 352 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: I want you to name every pair of shoes you have, 353 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: and you know, trying to be a good girl. I thought, well, 354 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: this is a test and I don't want to get 355 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: it wrong. I'm so anxious. Let me just really try 356 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: to picture all the shoes that line my closet shelf. 357 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: And I started listening them, all of them, the black 358 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: and white, polka dotted once with the bow tie and 359 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: the buckle ruby red ones, you know, And I managed 360 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: to come up with I recall ten pears. That teacher 361 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: Ms Miller said to me, what tim pears is an 362 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: awful lot. And then she just told me to take 363 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: my seat. But I could hear that thing in her voice. 364 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to call it then, but it 365 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: was totally disdained, you know. I thought that was it. 366 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: And the next day she called me back to her 367 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: desk and she said to me, you did not tell 368 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: me you had white shoes. I looked down at my feet, 369 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: and sure enough, I was wearing a pair of white 370 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: shoes that I had forgotten to mention, and I thought, 371 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: I've been calling a lie. I thought, I have so 372 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: disappointed my teacher, and I hope I'm not in trouble. 373 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: I was really worried, and that's why I went home 374 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: and told my mother what happened. I just thought I 375 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: have to let her know. And I confessed, that's what 376 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: it felt like. I was confessing that I forgot to 377 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: tell miss Miller about the eleventh pair of shoes. My mom, 378 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: I had never seen her get this angry. I mean, 379 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: I mean her eyes flashed with anger like I had 380 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: never seen, and I thought I'm about to get a spanking. 381 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: But that's not what happened. She looked at me and said, 382 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: that's none of her damn business. Who does she think 383 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: she is? So I'm relieved that I'm not in trouble. 384 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: But then she said to me, get your code, let's go. 385 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: I thought, please God, I hope we're not going back 386 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: to school to come front miss Miller. But we weren't. 387 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: My mom put me in the car and drove me 388 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 1: to Saxoforth Avenue and then took me to the children's 389 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: shoe department and pointed to the most beautiful pair of 390 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 1: like yellow patent leather shoes that I've ever seen in 391 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: my life. She pointed to them and said, those are pretty, 392 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: and then she bought them for me. She pulled out 393 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 1: a one dollar bill and pay for those shoes. And 394 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: I still remember how the saleswoman looked at me and 395 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: her that saleswoman looked at my mom the way that 396 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: that Miss Miller I looked at me. My mom didn't 397 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: seem to even notice. She just said to me, you're 398 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: gonna wear these school tomorrow, and you better tell that 399 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: damn teacher of yours that you actually have a dozen 400 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: pair of shoes. You hearing me, So what could I do? 401 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: I did what I was told, and as nervous as 402 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: I was, I walked up to Miss Miller's desk. I 403 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: had chosen a beautiful little yellow knit dress to match 404 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: the shoes, and I said, Ms. Miller, I have twelve 405 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: pairs of shoes. Oh my god. She looked down at 406 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: my feet, she looked at my face with those blue eyes, 407 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: and she told me to sit out. And you know, 408 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 1: she never said another word to me ever again the 409 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: rest of the school year. How did that feel to you? 410 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you're six years old, you're in first grade. 411 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: You again something you don't have language for, right, you 412 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,959 Speaker 1: recognize disdaining, but you know you don't have that word. Um, 413 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: you recognize it in the saleswoman at sacks for your mother. 414 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: You don't have that word. But what your mother does 415 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: is models for you. UM, dignity, Yes, that's it. If 416 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: she had played that any other way, you know, I 417 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 1: think about that now because it's still stuck with me. 418 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: Look how it has stuck with me my whole life. 419 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: I still remember as much as I tell people that story, 420 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: I can recall how I felt as a six year old. 421 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: It was traumatizing. And if my mother had, you know, 422 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: handled it any other way, said we'll just ignore her, 423 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: or well, you don't have to wear all your shoes 424 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: as cool. If she had done any of those things, 425 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: I think the shame would have come rushing down onto me, 426 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: all that shame that she had kept at bay. You know, 427 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: I think it would have really been really a very 428 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: different outcome. Um. So I'm grateful that she had to 429 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: wherewithal to handle it that way, because I knew right 430 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: then that no one could tell me what I was 431 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: entitled to. That was the thing that I quickly grasps 432 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: from that situation. There are stories that stay with us 433 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: and stories that we need to rediscover and re understand 434 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: as adults once our childhood's become clearer to us, especially 435 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: when our childhoods have involved a secret. Brigette is already 436 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: deep into her adult life. She's in her fifties, a journalist, 437 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: a professor, a wife, and a mom. Before this secret 438 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: she has kept her whole life starts to sit less 439 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: comfortably within her. Fanny's gone. The risks of what she 440 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: did are long past, and yet still the secret remains. 441 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: Why I was so used in not telling it was 442 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: all I ever knew. I inherited that way of life 443 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: that I never struggled with the idea of wanting to 444 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: tell of Oh oops, I'm gonna share this and I shouldn't. 445 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: I never did. It was incredible because as my best 446 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: friend since fourth grade, Diane Um, was being interviewed by 447 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: me as I was researching the book and now we're 448 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: in our fifties, and she thought, I just wanted to 449 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: talk about my mom, and she thought, well, that's a 450 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: great subject, because we all loved your mother. And we 451 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: all have stories of how she helped us. So yeah, 452 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: I'd love to talk to her, talk to you about her. 453 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,719 Speaker 1: And then my final question to her was did you 454 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: know that my mom had this whole business? And and 455 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: she was like, what are you talking about? What it's like? 456 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: That's when I realized, Wow, I really did keep this 457 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: secret pretty well, and that we all did, and that 458 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: my mother did. And you know, I could see it 459 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: in my friend's face. She was like, wait a minute, 460 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: I I did know your mom was running something. I 461 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: just didn't know what. Like I could tell she was 462 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: in charge, I just didn't know what she was in 463 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: charge of. So it was both a revelation but not surprising. 464 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: But that was my way of understanding for myself that yes, 465 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: we did keep that secret, solidly kept it um across 466 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: many years. But here's the thing I came to learn 467 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: to just because it wasn't a dark, shameful secret didn't 468 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: mean it wasn't weighing on me. It was because a 469 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: secret morse, it ultimately becomes something that attaches shame to itself, 470 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: to itself. Right, It's like I call shame a secret 471 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: country cousin because they're not far from one another inevitably, 472 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,719 Speaker 1: and in my case, I started feeling bad about not telling. 473 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: I started thinking, I'm acting like I'm ashamed of my 474 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: mother because I'm not telling anyone, and that felt awful. 475 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: At what point did you start feeling that way? It 476 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: really became a hute once I had a child, and 477 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: once my son got older and actually asked me one 478 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: day when he was like ten years old. This was 479 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: nine years ago, and he very innocently looked at a 480 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: photo of my mom and said, what was she like? Oh? 481 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: I managed to answer him. I said, oh, she was amazing. 482 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: But in my heart, I thought, Jesus, what have you done? 483 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: You know you have really now reached gone into a 484 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: territory that's unhealthy. You kept the secret longer than you 485 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: had to. Why are you still keeping the secret now? 486 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: Your own children don't know who their grandmother is, what 487 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: she did, what she accomplished. Then I thought, get it together. 488 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: Your mom died when you were thirty two. Yes, when 489 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: were your children born? So my son was born seven 490 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: years later. Okay, so you died before, right, So they 491 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: never knew her. They never knew her. I, as an aside, thought, 492 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: maybe I'll never have children. Um, I totally waited till 493 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: the last possible moment because I thought, you know, I 494 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: thought it was because I could never be the kind 495 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: of mother I had. And I wonder now, you know, 496 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: was that whole business of the secret implicated in there somehow? 497 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: I don't know how, but maybe something about children requires revelation. 498 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: And maybe I was hesitant about that too. I don't know, 499 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: but I definitely felt an urgency once he was asking 500 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: about her. That was the trigger. What has it been 501 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: like for you after a lifetime of that being so 502 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: embedded as a secret, Not only to have it stopped 503 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: being a secret um to your children or to your 504 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: inner circle, but um really shining a light on Fanny 505 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: and on everything that had been kind of kept in 506 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: the dark, kept quiet. What what what's that been like 507 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: for you? Oh? My, Sally, And emotionally and psychologically, it 508 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: is incredible. It's life changing. I can't put it in 509 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: any other way. It's a relief. It's such a relief, 510 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: and it's so validating. All that time I was stopping 511 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: a lot from happening, from my children knowing who she was, 512 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: from myself being able to brag about her, from all 513 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: these people who loved her, and had been touched by her. 514 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: They weren't really able to talk about her. Is as 515 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: though I gave everyone permission, and then I gave permission 516 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: to all these people who didn't know Fanny but had 517 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: similar stories. It dawned on me I hadn't thought about it. 518 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: Everyone was keeping the number secret. Well. One of the 519 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: things about secrets, too, is the way that they they 520 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: beget secrets. That begets secrets, that begets secrets, and so 521 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: everybody is walking around holding some version of a secret, 522 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: and they think that they're the only one, right, right, 523 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: that's it. I thought that I thought that I, um, 524 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 1: I didn't have any friends who had, you know, mother's 525 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: doing what my mom did, so it felt like I 526 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: was the only one. But of course now I'm not kidding. 527 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: Almost everyone I talked to wants to tell me an anecdote. 528 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: Not just about I had a friend who was in 529 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: the numbers, though I remember that family down the street 530 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: or my uncle was doing that, but people who want 531 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: to tell me about their grandfather who bet on horses, 532 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: or you know, the history of bootlegging in their family, 533 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: or you know like that, to me is the quintessentral 534 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: American story. It's something. It's really something. Here's Bridgette reading 535 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: a passage from the World according to Fannie Davis, in 536 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: which the love of this remarkable daughter for her remarkable 537 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: mother shines through as a family secret finally blossoms into 538 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: the light of day. My mother gave us a good 539 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 1: life a great expense. I thought I knew her skills 540 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: as a number runner, that she used her facility with numbers, 541 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: good judge of character, winning personality, and dose of good 542 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: luck to build and maintain her business for three decades. 543 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: But I had no idea just how much of a 544 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: gambler she was, or the kind of psychological work it 545 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: took to keep our world afloat. Scariest of all, is 546 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: this The only way for me to tell Mamma's story 547 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: is to defy her by running my mouth. Many thanks 548 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: to my guest, Brigette M. Davis. She is the author 549 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: of the World according to Fannie Davis, and you can 550 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: find out more about Brigette at Brigette davis dot com. 551 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is an I Heeart media production. Dylan Fagan 552 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: is a supervising producer, Lowell Brolante is the audio engineer, 553 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: and Julie Douglas is the executive producer. If you have 554 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 1: a family secret you'd like to share with us, get 555 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: in touch at listener mail at Family Secrets podcast dot com. 556 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Danny Writer, 557 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: and Facebook at Family Secrets Pod and Twitter at fami 558 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: Secrets Pod. For more about my book, Inheritance, visit Danny 559 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: Shapiro dot com. Yeah for more podcasts. For my heart radio, 560 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever 561 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.