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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Hi, guys, Nancy Gray's here

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Speaker 1: at the courthouse here in College in County in South Carolina.

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Speaker 1: It's actually Waterboro. Guys with me a longtime friend and colleague,

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Speaker 1: doctor William Moroney. Now this guy not only wrote the

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Speaker 1: book American Narken, he is a renowned medical examiner and

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Speaker 1: he is a toxicology expert. That's why you know, I've

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Speaker 1: got so many questions about the case, doctor Moroney. But

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Speaker 1: first let me tell you what happened. So we were

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Speaker 1: in court and they brought the defense brought on two

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Speaker 1: experts to counter the States experts. One was the pathologist.

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Speaker 1: He was saying, no, no, no, that's the wrong trajectory.

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Speaker 1: Path He mostly agreed with everything the States said, except

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Speaker 1: for a little bit, like maybe one point about Maggie

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Speaker 1: and one point about Paul Murdoch's death. Then they brought

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Speaker 1: on a crime scene expert. But that's actually not what

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Speaker 1: I'm want to talk about, doctor Moroney. When we broke

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Speaker 1: for the lunch break, I ran out in front of

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Speaker 1: the courthouse and did our normal Box Nation live program,

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Speaker 1: and we were waiting and waiting and waiting for court

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Speaker 1: to resume. Dr Maroney. The weather here is like being

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Speaker 1: in Savannah, Georgia. It's beautiful. So I just took off

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Speaker 1: and walked for about an hour around Waterboro, Doctor Moroney.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful. It's a lovely little town. And the houses

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Speaker 1: are like I wouldn't call them ante bellum homes, but

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Speaker 1: they're beautiful, their period homes. The weather was almost hot,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't really hot, it wasn't really cold. It was

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Speaker 1: like a warm bath, and it just everybody is friendly,

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Speaker 1: like super friendly here, and it made me think about

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Speaker 1: what all Murdog will be saying goodbye too if he's convicted. Well,

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Speaker 1: you lose a lot when you don't have insight and

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Speaker 1: you drift towards criminologically active behaviors. But that's because society

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Speaker 1: wants to isolate those people. And there's just so many

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Speaker 1: questions about his behavior, his past experience, his manipulations, his psyche.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever known a single drug addict that didn't lie,

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Speaker 1: really be honest, a single drug addict that didn't lie, Well,

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Speaker 1: I would say, I don't use the word lie. I

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Speaker 1: would say that many of my patients lack insight and

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Speaker 1: they are not valid historians. That's what I would say,

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Speaker 1: but okay, they're not valid historians. Okay, that's screwed up.

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Speaker 1: They lie. I don't know why they lie. Well, they

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Speaker 1: don't want people to find out about their habit, and

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Speaker 1: they lie to get the money or the habit. They

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Speaker 1: take money away from the family or whoever they love,

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Speaker 1: or whoever's attached to them. They commit crimes to get

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Speaker 1: the money because it's expensive. But I've got so many

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Speaker 1: questions for you. Number one, this guy, Alex Murdog was

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Speaker 1: completely lucid when police came to the home the knight

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Speaker 1: of the two murders. If he was up to fifty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a week in opioids, I mean, could he

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Speaker 1: have a tolerance love? Lie about the degree of addiction?

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Speaker 1: It is not uncomfortable. I mean it is not uncommon.

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Speaker 1: In many of the severe addiction cases that I have

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Speaker 1: been brought, people are taking sixty seventy eighty pills a day,

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Speaker 1: almost one hundred pills a day. And I know, right,

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Speaker 1: what did you just say? Eighty pills a day? How

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Speaker 1: can that be? Well, they have to take ten or

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Speaker 1: fifteen to get out of bed, and they take another

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Speaker 1: ten or fifteen because these pills only last three four

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Speaker 1: or five hours. They don't last all day, so they're

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Speaker 1: dosing themselves six times a day. At wait a minute, okay,

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Speaker 1: you said that a pill. Watch any saying oot oxycodon. Well,

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Speaker 1: they come in and they'll call it oxyconton, but it

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Speaker 1: could be the generic oxycodone. It's it's a rapid um

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Speaker 1: it has a very short half life. Sometimes they chew

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Speaker 1: it too. They don't just swallow these. Okay. He said

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Speaker 1: that they can take sixty eight, sixty to eighty pills

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Speaker 1: a day because they each pillow and lasts like three hours.

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Speaker 1: They correct me if I'm wrong, there's twenty four hours

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Speaker 1: in a day. Why do I need sixty pills to

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Speaker 1: get through one day? Moroni? Because you start getting withdrawal,

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Speaker 1: and when withdrawal hits, your body just gives off fluid,

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Speaker 1: Your eyes water, your mouth salivates, you feel like you're

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Speaker 1: gonna vomit, You can't hold your bowels, you have shortness

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Speaker 1: of breath, and these are terrible feelings that with that

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Speaker 1: comes anxiety and really low blood pressure and you can't

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Speaker 1: stand it. So you take more olpiates and then it

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Speaker 1: calms you down. That's not how it starts. That's how

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Speaker 1: it is two or three years later. Okay, how does

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Speaker 1: this start? I want you to explain what I'm getting

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Speaker 1: in And how can he be on fifty grand of

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Speaker 1: opioids a week, number one? And how can he be

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Speaker 1: so loosive when the scots show up? I mean he's

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Speaker 1: loosened on the nine one one call, He's loosened. When

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Speaker 1: the cops get there, he continues to be loosi We know,

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Speaker 1: according to him, he had pills in his pocket, illegal

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Speaker 1: peels when the cops were there, so he was probably

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Speaker 1: so high as a kind when he went in for

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Speaker 1: the interview as well. Would that explain why he just

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Speaker 1: sat there with his legs crossed when they said, you're

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Speaker 1: a juble murder suspect. What we know, and it's different

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Speaker 1: than the stereotype, is that he may not be some

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Speaker 1: dude and have slow speech and slow thinking because his

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Speaker 1: body has become tolerant. But when the drug work on

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Speaker 1: the long term process in his brains. There are two

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Speaker 1: things that commit to this murder that come from the

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Speaker 1: criminology of long term opiate use. The number one thing

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Speaker 1: is a lack of insight. He knows nothing other than

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Speaker 1: the current event the minute, what he's actually doing. And

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Speaker 1: the second thing is in pulsivity. So those two professionally

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Speaker 1: screened events in long term opiate use lead into criminal behavior.

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Speaker 1: And it is the lack of insight that is moral

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Speaker 1: and ethical consequences and long term planning and impulsivity. These

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Speaker 1: are the two things that come when you rewire the

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Speaker 1: brain that nobody can wait. They have to have what

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Speaker 1: they have and they have to have it right now.

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Speaker 1: That's the impulsivity and the lack of insight is there

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Speaker 1: is normal moral compass, There is no anchor that is ethical,

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Speaker 1: There is no he does not have the frontal lobe

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Speaker 1: activity the higher power. That lack of insight comes from opiates,

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Speaker 1: re wearing the brain in that pleasure circuit that he's

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Speaker 1: constantly seeking pleasure and to stay out of withdrawal prime

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace, you said something that really shut me.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like a child. They live in that moment,

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Speaker 1: that moment, and they don't think I had and they

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Speaker 1: don't think back. So at that moment and he allegedly

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Speaker 1: shot them dead, he wasn't thinking about the future. His

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Speaker 1: law practice is beautiful little town where he lives, the

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Speaker 1: courthouse where his dad and his grandfather's portraits are hanging

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Speaker 1: in the hall, his law partners, nothing He's thinking about

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Speaker 1: that moment, nothing else matters. But has that tie into

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Speaker 1: the opioids with the addiction. When the brain is rewired

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Speaker 1: for pleasure, you no longer have a long term plan

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Speaker 1: for the future. And here's where I don't know this

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Speaker 1: part of the law, so you can correct me and

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Speaker 1: guide me. He may have picked up guns and seeing

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Speaker 1: an opportunity and decided to shoot his family members instead

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Speaker 1: of planning a week ahead or a month ahead, because

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Speaker 1: his brain was rewired in that immediate pleasure circuit for

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Speaker 1: impulsivity that no normal person would ever demonstrate. And when

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Speaker 1: we bring people through the disease of addiction, then we

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Speaker 1: bring them back into society, we have to remind them

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Speaker 1: that they have to rewire their brains to not be impulsive.

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Speaker 1: That's part of the treatment, because part of you know,

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Speaker 1: like any chronic disease, you have a list of symptoms

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Speaker 1: in substance use disorder. When the brain is rewired, that

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Speaker 1: impulsivity is something nobody can understand unless they've been through it. Now,

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Speaker 1: I see it a thousand times a month in my patience,

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Speaker 1: and I've seen it for twenty years. Well what about that,

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Speaker 1: I'm not Maggie and Paul that each and together found

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Speaker 1: is pillstash and had confronted him about it. Has the

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Speaker 1: prosecution said who was shot first? Yeah, Paul was shot first. Okay,

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Speaker 1: in the end, he may have been angry and he

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Speaker 1: shot Paul. And then he said, oh, yet what did

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Speaker 1: I do? This is terrible and his impulsivity led to

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Speaker 1: shooting his wife that he would have never done before,

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Speaker 1: but he did it because of this lack of insight

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Speaker 1: and impulsivity. Well, here's the fly in the opintment with

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Speaker 1: that theory. He lord Maggie too the hunting watch, which

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Speaker 1: shows malice of forethought mens roah intent. He told her

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Speaker 1: that he was worried about his father and mister Randolph

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Speaker 1: passing away, and she say to others that's why she

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Speaker 1: was going there, And she didn't really want to go,

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Speaker 1: but she was going. And that says to me he

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Speaker 1: planned this. So that complete theory. Well, it's it's not

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Speaker 1: that it destroys it, but it also shows that his

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Speaker 1: lack of insight reaches deep down into the moral aspect

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Speaker 1: of killing another person. This is not his first rodeo,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's probably been involved in traumatic deaths, so

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Speaker 1: this was very easy, and that the impulsivity of killing

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Speaker 1: her is something that straightforward. We see people who they

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Speaker 1: look at somebody, they figure they have a wallet, They

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Speaker 1: push them down, they go through their pockets, they take

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Speaker 1: their money, They carjack people, they take keys, they're trying

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Speaker 1: to rip people off, and all that comes impulsively because

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Speaker 1: when their brain is rewired, they don't think there's any consequences.

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Speaker 1: And he is in a situation where he has got

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Speaker 1: himself out of consequences before. He had many times. And

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Speaker 1: when you when you look at the amount of him

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Speaker 1: not being held accountable and him not having consequences, and

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Speaker 1: then you add some criminology on top of that, and

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Speaker 1: then drug use and the lack of insightssivity. I thought

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Speaker 1: for sure that there would be girlfriends and mistresses paraded

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Speaker 1: in front of the jury, always heard about and the

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Speaker 1: jury has not heard about. It is an affair he

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Speaker 1: had about ten or fifteen years ago, and Maggie was

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Speaker 1: still upset about it. I don't Blimer because you feel

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Speaker 1: like you could never trust the person again. Let me

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Speaker 1: ask you this, does they is incredible? Ye said, Hope,

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Speaker 1: he always what thank you that have on your sex drive,

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Speaker 1: I mean your sex drive or do you even just

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Speaker 1: become like a sex addict. The long term consequences of

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Speaker 1: opioids on the pituitary and testosterone is an imbalance that

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Speaker 1: leads towards lower sex drive and lower testosterone in men.

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Speaker 1: Does that make yeah, explain why we haven't heard about

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Speaker 1: a recent affair? Okay? Next question? Is it physically possible

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Speaker 1: to take that many pills and not kill over dead?

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Speaker 1: Oh and Jackie wants to know if Marlo was using

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Speaker 1: that many drives? I know, weight loss. The weight loss

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Speaker 1: is difficult. Um, there are some people that feel tremendous constipation,

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Speaker 1: and that constipation leads you to less of an appetite

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Speaker 1: because you have to have a system that allows you

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Speaker 1: to eat at one end and defecate it the other.

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Speaker 1: That is patient specific. But what would be more important

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Speaker 1: is was he the wrong color? Was he pale? Did

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Speaker 1: he look ashen? Now? Didn't lose weight? But those are

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Speaker 1: signs of toxicity in the liver, which comes from all

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Speaker 1: of the things in those tablets. One of the things,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not purporting to say that any drug use IVU,

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Speaker 1: snort use, smoking, or oral is better. But one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why long term drug users stop taking pills

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Speaker 1: and go to injecting is they bypass the stomach and

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Speaker 1: they get what they need because they bypass the stomach

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Speaker 1: and they go straight IV. There's no reports of him

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Speaker 1: injecting at any time, and he stayed with oral meads,

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Speaker 1: which means he's taking a lot of calcium filler. He's

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Speaker 1: taking sucros, he's taking lactose, he's taking other binders, he's

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Speaker 1: taking dies and all that stuff. It's toxic to the

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Speaker 1: liver in the long term. It makes the liver work

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Speaker 1: too hard, and then you don't make as much red

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Speaker 1: blood cells, you don't make as much hemoglobin. Your chemistry's off,

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Speaker 1: and you look sick. You're the wrong color. He says

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Speaker 1: his addiction is to quote opioid painkillers, specifically oxycodone and OxyContin.

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Speaker 1: I can't take that many peals and live a sixty

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Speaker 1: day appeal oxy habit sixty pails a day. I mean,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't that calls emotional numbness severe depression, which you're all.

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Speaker 1: I mean, because those pills are giving him his energy.

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Speaker 1: He's getting they across the board. Oxycotton users have said

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Speaker 1: for fifteen years. Those pills gave me energy. There's something

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Speaker 1: about the OxyContin the oxycodone molecule that is different than

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Speaker 1: a lot of the other opioids. Sometimes we think that

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Speaker 1: they're all the same. And you know, high doses of

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Speaker 1: morphine and heroin and opium they make you sleepy. Anybody

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Speaker 1: that knows people who've been oxycotton users know that they're buzzed,

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Speaker 1: they're wired. It's a total seven oxycodon pills a day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I would say, you know, if you're taking uh

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Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty of those of three or four times

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Speaker 1: a day, that would that would keep you wired like

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Speaker 1: that Physically, I am still function as a lawyer because

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Speaker 1: it starts slow and it goes up to that dose

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Speaker 1: over a year or two. Yes, you can function at

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Speaker 1: that level. Your body still functions. But when I tell

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Speaker 1: you that you lose the insight, you no longer make

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Speaker 1: the same moral decisions, and an impulsivity drives you to

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Speaker 1: criminal behavior that when you're sober, you would never go

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Speaker 1: in that direction. Time stories with Nancy Grace. That's awesome outburst,

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Speaker 1: one that may have resulted in Maggie and Paul's martyrs.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, I know that pot makes you typically

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Speaker 1: sleepy and lethargic. Not everybody, but most people. Meth makes

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Speaker 1: you crazy, and you imagine monsters and you attack people

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Speaker 1: and chew their faces. Often just you imagine that bugs

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Speaker 1: are crawling all over your body and you lose your teeth.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean opioids. Could they cause an

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Speaker 1: emotional outburst that would end in the murders of two people?

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Speaker 1: All the opioids are different, They're not exactly the same.

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Speaker 1: But we have known for twenty years that people who

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Speaker 1: use OxyContin excessively outside of the FDA approved range have

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Speaker 1: all said they got energy, they got a buzz. It

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Speaker 1: got them through the day. I had a very nice

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Speaker 1: lady that you would have never guessed that was in

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Speaker 1: the stronghold of addiction. Look at me and say, if

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Speaker 1: I take my OxyContin, I can work on the farm.

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Speaker 1: I get up at five o'clock and I go to work,

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Speaker 1: and I work till ten or eleven. Then at noon,

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Speaker 1: I go to work in the factory and I work

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Speaker 1: second shift. She held down two jobs as a farmer

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Speaker 1: and as a factory worker, and at one point she

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Speaker 1: gave up the factory worker to become a roofer. These

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Speaker 1: are physically very hard jobs, and she said, I didn't

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Speaker 1: have any problem to do that when I got my oxyconton.

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Speaker 1: When I got my oxycont I do everything. I didn't

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Speaker 1: do anything. I had energy all day and for twenty years.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the detrimental things in the opioid crisis.

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Speaker 1: Now a lot of people think, well, you know, they're

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Speaker 1: all the same. Oxyconton got people through the work at factories.

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Speaker 1: It got older people pushing fifty and sixty to keep

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Speaker 1: up with the thirty year olds. That's why it was

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Speaker 1: a crisis because sooner or later the government and the

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Speaker 1: states and the insurance cut all those people off, and

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Speaker 1: now they feel those pains. I don't know that it

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Speaker 1: gives you the energy, but if it takes away your pain,

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Speaker 1: then what you're doing you're able to function without pain.

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Speaker 1: You start building up a tolerance, so where you used

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Speaker 1: to be able to take one pill three times a day,

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Speaker 1: suddenly you need to. Then you need four, then you

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Speaker 1: need eight, and if you don't take that many, you

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Speaker 1: start going into withdrawal. Because let me understand this, opioids

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Speaker 1: bind to opioid receptors, and your brain and your spinal

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Speaker 1: cord and other parts of your bodies. Now, to me,

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Speaker 1: a receptor is an object or an entity that receives,

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Speaker 1: So always bind to your brain is final four and

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Speaker 1: other areas of your body. When there's opioid receptors are

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Speaker 1: full and they start emptying out and you have withdrawals,

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Speaker 1: so you have to take more and more and more

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Speaker 1: to get that feeling of euphoria or pleasure. Right? Is

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Speaker 1: that how it works? It is, And here's what ends

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Speaker 1: up happening. Let's say the number of receptors you have

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Speaker 1: in your brain that just get pain management, you know,

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Speaker 1: ten or twenty percent of your opioid receptors. Well, as

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Speaker 1: the brain accommodates, it may lower those number of receptors

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Speaker 1: because it doesn't want too many. It's it's it's a reflex.

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Speaker 1: It's called receptor down regulation. So then later on you

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Speaker 1: need more drug to fill more receptors, and the brain

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Speaker 1: lowers the number of receptors. You have to take more

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Speaker 1: to fill the same receptors. So they've been doing this

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Speaker 1: over a decade. Yes, absolutely. Now, let me understand when

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Speaker 1: you opioid addictions can trigger it's traite. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: a dementor have any of your children at Harry Potter.

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Speaker 1: We went to Harry Potter parties. We have Harry Potter

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Speaker 1: ornaments on our Christians have Harry Potter. You'll have to

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Speaker 1: read the books. While the movies are wonderful, they're not

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Speaker 1: the same as the books. I've read every single one

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Speaker 1: to the Twins, and you need to know what a

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Speaker 1: dementor is. A dementor is something that comes to light,

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Speaker 1: it flies up. It's dark, it really doesn't have a face,

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Speaker 1: and it's like a dark ghost and it flies up,

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Speaker 1: is in a group, and they suck all the joy

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Speaker 1: out of you and you're just left as a shell

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Speaker 1: of what you were before. You'd rather die. So my

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Speaker 1: point is, I think like a dementor, they trigger feelings

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Speaker 1: of intense sadness and hopelessness when you can't get your fits,

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Speaker 1: so you know, to even keep your spirits that you

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Speaker 1: just have to keep taking it in order to get

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Speaker 1: any kind of happiness. That's a very good description and

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Speaker 1: it's very visual, and people that have seen that in

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Speaker 1: Harry Potter read about that, they can understand that, and

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Speaker 1: it almost matches word for word what people looking to

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Speaker 1: get out of the trap of opioids and to get

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Speaker 1: sober what they say because their normal emotions are gone

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Speaker 1: and the more violence is it Like PCP or other

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Speaker 1: drugs that make you more project violence. They don't drive

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Speaker 1: you to violence like psychosis, but they would drive you

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Speaker 1: to violence with the fact that I'll return. Did you

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Speaker 1: have the lack of insight? There are other answers that

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Speaker 1: are non violent. So ye have no campulse control, you

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Speaker 1: have no insight. You're only living in that exact moment

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Speaker 1: like a child. And if someone threatens to take away

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Speaker 1: you're opius. It's like the devans are sucking the joy

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Speaker 1: out of you, and you'll do anything to avoid it.

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Speaker 1: That is almost exactly word for word what some people

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Speaker 1: have said to me when they come to me and

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Speaker 1: they say, I got to get off this stuff. If

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Speaker 1: I don't, I'm gonna die or I'm gonna go to

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Speaker 1: jail because I just don't feel right and I'm doing

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Speaker 1: things that I know are wrong, but I'm still doing them.

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Speaker 1: Dr Maroni's of course not a defense. But when I

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Speaker 1: look at him, it looks so pale, and especially around

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Speaker 1: the times of the martyrs, his eyes just look out,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing behind them. I tell people who start opioid

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Speaker 1: treatments with us to to opioid disorder treatments. I say,

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Speaker 1: this doesn't change overnight, but you're going to have this

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Speaker 1: lack of insight, and you're going to have this impulsivity

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Speaker 1: that you want it now. And part of you going

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Speaker 1: to therapy with the therapists is to learn to be

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Speaker 1: patient and slowly. Nobody's ever put a finger on the number,

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Speaker 1: but in my clinic, I tell people when you're drug

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Speaker 1: free from the opiates and you're on our treatment and counseling,

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Speaker 1: it takes about two years for you to get back

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Speaker 1: the joy and the understanding and the impulse control counseling

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Speaker 1: every month. I just feel so bad for people that

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Speaker 1: are tangled up in drugs and they can't get out

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Speaker 1: and they have no right real joy in their lives.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Moronie, I didn't mean to take all your time.

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Speaker 1: It's just so good to talk to you, and you

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Speaker 1: make it so easy to understand. Guys with me, Doctor

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Speaker 1: William Maroney, my longtime friend, colleague, his most important title, however,

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Speaker 1: his husband and dad to awesome children. Please send me

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Speaker 1: some more pictures, doctor Moroni. I will and you send

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Speaker 1: me or I will bye, buddy. Thanks man, bye friend,