WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 218 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:03.080 Cool Media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.680 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.480 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.480 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.600 This is It could happen here, a show about things 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.320 falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis this episode. I'm joined by 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:36.040 Mia Wong. 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:36.800 Mia. 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.120 I have some upsetting news. 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:40.519 Oh no, I. 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.200 Which is frankly one of the best ways to start 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.480 this episode and one of the best ways to start 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.120 the show. So I'm pretty sure that I found this 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.600 account called Let's see at Hill Hitler, and I think 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:58.800 he's posting some things that is a little bit fascist. 0:00:58.920 --> 0:00:59.560 Oh wow. 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:03.800 I have decoded some of at Hell Hitler's communications and 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.880 I have uncovered a secret a secret Nazi code. 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:09.640 Wow. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.920 This is this is an incredibly unexpected revelation from Hail Hitler. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:15.920 He has posted some pictures in like what I would 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.800 assume is some kind of military uniform that looks like 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:20.360 I don't know, it's it's some kind of like h 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:24.240 like Germanic military uniform. But I've noticed that there are 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.959 some runes on this uniform, oh, that look very similar 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.360 to the Odal rune. So I'm thinking because of the rune, 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:32.959 this guy might be a Nazi. 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:35.240 Thank you for your work, Harrison. We could never have 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:35.880 determined this. 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:38.559 That's right, I am. You can find me at osent 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:45.920 to Defender online and Defender No. That doesn't for us today, 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.560 and it could happen here now. So this episode, we're 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.840 gonna talk about something that's been slowly frustrating me the 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:56.880 past few weeks, and that is the misapplication of dog whistles. 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:02.360 And let's just get right into it. People have been 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:09.600 noticing patterns, noticing trends in official communications from the dhs 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:13.240 gov online accounts, which now is the main way the 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:19.440 government sends out communications, unfortunately, especially on X the Everything app. 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.040 But this, this extends outside of X the Everything after, 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.680 this extends outside of Blue Sky the Internet in general. 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:31.440 This is about how we understand the messaging of fascists 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:36.400 and understand how rhetoric and anti fascist like education works 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.240 and ways that I think it's currently being misapplied. So 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:42.640 bear with me. This is going to be kind of 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.480 an odd episode, but I think I think it's worth 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.360 it because I don't want us falling into the same 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.120 traps that we maybe fell into eight years ago. So 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.720 let's let's let's start by talking about some communications posted 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:02.080 on the internet by at dhs gov a picture of 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:07.800 a painting titled American Progress by John Gast captioned a 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:12.480 heritage to be proud of, comma a homeland worth defending. 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.080 So on the surface, you know, maybe a slightly hashtag 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:22.640 problematic sentiment here with a hashtag problematic painting, or at 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:26.200 the very least of painting depicting the genocide of Native 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:32.000 Americans and Indigenous people specifically with like a white supremacist outlook, 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:37.000 with this enlarged white woman bathed in a white cloak, 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.080 bringing forth that the tide of quote unquote progress as 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.840 Indigenous people are are forced to flee from the edge 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:46.600 of the painting. 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.880 It's fun because this is a painting we literally when 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:54.080 they had to explain manifest destiny like colonialism. 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:54.400 Good. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.280 This is the painting that was in my textbook in 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:58.040 high school. 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:00.560 Is three class like it is like. 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.240 The the er colonialism good genocide, good painting. 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:08.520 Genocide good that that's what the painting is. But what 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.760 I have found through some hashtag research there might be 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.400 a hidden code in this. In this communication from the 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:21.039 DHSO already an agency that only has the best interests 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.200 of really all people who strive for human rights, the DHS. SO, 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:27.760 if you count all of the words in the tweet, 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.359 guess how many words there are in this tweet? 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:31.760 MEA fifteen no. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.840 So close, so close, fourteen fourteen words in this tweet, 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:42.839 which might remind you of the fourteen words the Nazi signifier, 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.599 which I probably just to explain. Surely most people listening 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:49.880 to this is familiar with the fourteen words, since it 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:54.920 seems everybody thinks they are an armchair expert on fascist rhetoric. 0:04:55.120 --> 0:05:00.119 But the fourteen words we must secure the existence of 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.440 our people and a future for white children. This became 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:09.680 a popular hashtag dog whistle, especially in the past. I 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:17.279 would say ten fifteen years, usually by implanting fourteen's and 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.520 usually fourteen eighty eights, with eighty eight meaning hal Hitler 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.640 because H is the eighth letter of the alphabet. This 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.640 became a common Nazi tag. You'd see this in graffiti, 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.880 you see this embedded into into posts, see this in 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:35.919 like Nazi artwork. And going back to this DHS post, 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:40.039 we can not only count fourteen words in this tweet, 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:44.039 this is actually a fourteen eighty eight because two of 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.480 the h's in this in this post are capitalized unusually 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.400 and that means hal hitler wo because hc eighth letter. 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.839 Uh oh, but wait, actually looking at this post again, 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.719 there's actually other words in this tweet that are also 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:00.000 unusually capitalized. 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:00.800 But don't worry. 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:01.440 Don't worry. 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.360 This is still a dog whistle because those other words 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:07.159 that are capitalized in the first sentence are the letters 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.920 A and D, which if you convert those into numbers, 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.200 are one in four. So it's actually another fourteen. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:20.120 Oh wow, we're doing numerology. We're doing jamatria, where we've. 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:20.720 Become Q and on. 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.720 We're so back. So if you cannot tell by my 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:30.520 my thinly veiled sarcasm in that last section, I think 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.680 this methodology is a little bit silly. What are we doing? 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.560 What are we doing here? We're converting capitalized letters in 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.480 the first half of a tweet into numbers and then 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.159 rearranging the order of those letters to get a fourteen 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.839 eighty eight. It's literally jermatria and then also counting the 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.680 total words in the whole suite while still disregarding the 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:54.279 capitalizations in the last four words for another fourteen What 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:56.760 are we doing? How is this the piece of evidence 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.400 that sinks sinks the Trump administration and finally proves that 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.599 they're fascist. You can just look at all of the 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.719 fascist policies the Trump administration is enacting. Instead of doing 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.440 numerology on tweets, people are thinking, ha ha ha ha, 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:17.920 I have decoded the secret Nazi message with AHHD one 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:23.440 eight eight fourteen, nice trigroipers. Meanwhile, you can just look 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.280 at the actual text of the post, you can look 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.640 at the painting. Both of those things have an inherent 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:35.240 fascist quality. It's literally defending the concept of ethnic genocide 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:41.280 of manifest destiny. While the administration, the DHS is currently 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.800 furthering as no nationalist policies, they are doing this. 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.760 This is homeland security, right. I don't know if people 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.240 realize that ICE is a part of homeland security, but. 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.280 Like, this is the agency that is literally. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.360 Rounding people up and sending them to camps. We have 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.640 camps in multiple countries now, but I say they're being 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.560 round up and sent to camps. It's genuinely unclear whether 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.200 what I'm talking about is the fucking concentration. 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.240 Camp in Florida, seacot in nol Salvador. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.120 Yeah, I mean I think I think people have now escaped, 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.880 so I can't technically call the Honduras one a death camp. 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:14.880 But like again, there's any people in south'su Dan They're 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.920 like they're just doing this, like what are. 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:19.440 We doing here? 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:24.240 So this episode I want to focus on how people 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.640 are misusing anti fascist education, or I would argue they're 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.000 misusing anti fascist education and kind of missing the forest 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.360 for a cardboard cutout of trees. Yeah, not even trees, 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.000 kind of something that could be a tree if you 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.200 look at it from one angle, but maybe isn't actually 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.360 a real tree. And you don't need to sound like 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:48.080 a da Vinci Code conspiracy theorist to point out the obvious, 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:53.440 like dog whistles don't matter if the regular whistle is 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:58.520 already fascist, if they're just saying things openly and furthermore 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:03.960 doing things, what purpose does a dog whistle? And this 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.840 is something that we're going to discuss. Are not just 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.559 saying this and closing the episode, We're going to get 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.480 into these Yeah, And I think part of what's happening 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:19.080 here everybody is so cooked by the paranoid style of 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:25.120 American politics. Everyone is so eager to decode the hidden 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.160 messages that we're missing what's right in front of us. 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:33.439 Qwanon has a total victory. Qwanon does not really exist 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:35.760 in the way that it did in twenty eighteen. That 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.800 the q Andon cult conspiracy theory as like a singular 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.040 cultish project is kind of no more. But q Andon 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.360 has a cultural victory over the entire United States, and 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.360 not just on the right wing, not just on Mega. 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.800 So much of American politics now is litigating who is 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.319 and is not a pedophile, who is and is not 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.959 trafficking children, who can notice which events are staged, who 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:04.600 can notice hidden codes, who can decode anonymous messages on 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:09.280 the Internet. And this is what like everything is. And 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:11.640 like the real turning point I think for the right 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.040 wing was probably the twenty twenty election in like a 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.240 massive fracture from reality in which they think that election 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.080 was legitimately stolen. And obviously there was many events leading 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.240 up to that which contributed to this yeah, and I 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.080 think one of the biggest fracture points for liberals was 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.800 the attempted assassination of Donald Trump, with people creating whole 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:33.680 new alternate realities that that event was staged. And because 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.520 that door is opened now, I'm seeing such a massive 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:38.800 flood of things that I would label as blueing on 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.800 conspiracy theories, which is kind of a nonsense term, but 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.520 it gets the point across. And gonna do a whole 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.040 piece on bluing on very soon. I've been collecting blue 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.120 and on conspiracy theories for a while, but I want 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.679 to do something specifically about this fourteen eighty eight and 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:56.840 like secret codes thing, because it's so evocative of like, 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.720 you know, Q drops, and it's evocative of, you know, 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:04.640 searching for Masonic codes, something that American conspiracy theorists have 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.640 been doing for generations. And we're to talk about that 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.640 more and read a little bit of an essay on 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:15.280 that topic after this ad break, and I will let 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.280 you know. There's gonna be two messages in the ad 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.960 break that if you decode, you win a special prize 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:21.800 at the end of the episode, So make sure you 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.640 listen to every single second of the ad in case 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:39.720 you miss the code. Okay, we are back speaking of 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.840 the paranoid style in American politics. I want to quote 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.520 a few sections to kind of frame what I'm talking 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.640 about here. This was an essay written in the sixties 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:58.360 by Richard version hoff Setter Hofstetter Richard Hofstetter, one of 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:04.040 the first like modern pieces on American conspiracy culture and politics. 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.480 I'm gonna I have three paragraphs here that I selected 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.520 as being relevant to the current topic at hand. 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:12.080 Quote. 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.600 There is a style of mind that is far from 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:18.600 new and that is not necessarily right wing. I call 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:22.040 it the paranoid style simply because no other word adequately 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.960 evokes the sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.080 that I have in mind. Nothing really prevents a sound 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.680 program or demand from being advocated in the paranoid style. 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:37.000 Style has more to do with the way in which 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:41.360 ideas are believed than with the truth or falsity of 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:45.480 their contact. Unquote. And I like that section specifically because 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.880 fourteen eighty eight is a real dog whistle. We can 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:52.240 see this used. There's aspects of people are who are 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.920 trying to search for this and trying to search for 0:12:55.360 --> 0:13:00.400 patterns in the communications of unadmittedly fascistic government agency that 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.960 I find like sympathetic, like I can understand, because yeah, 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.120 that is a real dog whistle. I'm going to continue 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.160 the quote quote. The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:14.200 conspiracy in apocalyptic terms. He traffics in the birth and 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:18.240 death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:22.239 human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization. 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.599 He constantly lives at a turning point. Like religious millenarianists, 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.640 he expresses the anxiety of those who are living through 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.800 the last days, and he is sometimes disposed to set 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.240 a date for the apocalypse. As a member of the 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.880 avant garde who is capable of perceiving the conspiracy before 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.040 it is fully obvious to it. As of yet to 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:47.480 unaroused public, the paranoid is a militant leader. Demand for 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:53.000 total triumph leads to the formulation of hopelessly unrealistic goals, 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.600 and since these goals are not even remotely attainable, failure 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:02.080 constantly heightens the paranoid's sense of frustration. Unquote, hof Setter 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.440 is talking about something that that me and Robert specifically 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.000 have have have discussed a lot on this show before 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:13.600 how everyone in America wants to have access to secret information. 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:14.160 Mm hmm. 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.920 Everyone wants to have the exclusive piece of secret intel 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.320 that will solve everything, and like having having that like 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:27.520 informational exclusivity in a world of information saturation, right of 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.920 a vortex of like meaningless noise. It's it's such a 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.600 romantic idea that that I alone have the info or 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.240 the clue to pieces together and it's my duty to 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.840 inform the masses. It's it's a very romantic notion, and. 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:48.040 It's also one that is exactly perfectly anti suited for 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.960 the moment we live in, which is actually just a 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.360 moment where everything that is happening is just so clearly literal, 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.880 like it's all out of the omen like what is 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.560 happening with the Trump administration. Okay, In twenty twenty, there 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.520 is a mas massive uprising to attempt to attempt to 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:07.400 fundamentally change like the structurally racist nature of the United States, 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.080 to deal with its fucking class inequalities, to deal with 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.400 the structural violence of the state. This was reacted to 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.520 by a massive fascist movement that spent half a decade 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.920 gaining power and then finally took power in the form 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.720 of like a bunch of pissed off petite bourgeois fucking 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.840 car dealers and like literally a billionaire real estate mogul 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.120 backed by the richest tech company guy in the world, right, 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:34.480 and they came together to build fascism. This is the 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:40.560 most straightforward, like if this is a conception of how 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:45.480 a fascist takeover works that is so thuddingly literal that 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:50.640 it defies narrativization because it's just there. There's no subtlety 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:52.480 to it. They're just saying it. They just want to 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.280 do it, and they're doing it. But everyone is convinced 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.440 that there's like some kind of secret hitting conspiracy and 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.000 it's like, no, they're just doing the thing that they're saying. 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:04.080 Yeah, you can argue that we have a groper occupied 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:09.480 government not because of counting words and posts, but because 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.280 of not only who they're bringing on for Doge, but 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.360 literally Ice in DHS as of today, which I'm recording 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:17.520 this on Wednesday, I think, because this comes out Wednesday night, 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:21.520 are copying like Patriot Front style tactics of loading up 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:26.240 ICE agents in U haul style rentable trucks to hunt 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:30.120 down people to assault and kidnap like they're just copying 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:34.080 the Patriot Front playbook. Here the ICE director said that 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:38.000 he wants an Amazon like mass deportation system, calling it 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:42.840 quote unquote Amazon Prime, but with human beings. They're saying this, 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:47.600 you can listen to the actual words. I'm going to 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.000 read another quote here from the Paraoid Style of American 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:55.040 Politics essay quote. A final characteristic of the paranoid style 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.560 is related to the quality of its pedantry. One of 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.800 the impressive things about paranoid literature is the contrast between 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:07.080 its fantasized conclusions and the almost touching concern with fectuality 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:11.560 it invariably shows. It produces heroic strivings for evidence to 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.320 prove that the unbelievable is the only thing that can 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:19.280 be believed respectable. Paranoid literature not only starts from certain 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:23.840 moral commitments that can indeed be justified, but also carefully 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.560 and all but obsessively accumulates quote unquote evidence. The paranoid 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:33.840 seems to have little expectation for actually convincing a hostile world, 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.199 but he can accumulate evidence in order to protect his 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.920 cherished convictions from it unquote. And I think that gets 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.080 into the psychological mechanisms on why people are doing this 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:49.320 Nazi code hunting. It's actually a form of self coping, 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:53.040 looking at the horrific state of the federal government, looking 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.560 at the brazenness in which ICE is operating, and this 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.399 is a self preservation mechanism. Someone on Blue Sky that 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:01.840 I was talking to this is like arguing, like, ICE 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.520 doesn't need to dog whistle, they have no reason to. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:04.840 Like. 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.640 Dog whistling is for trying to like sneakily get racists 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:12.840 or fascists into power while signaling to a nationalistic base 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.880 that they are like one of them. Right, But these 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.800 guys are already in power. Yeah, and the base already 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:22.000 knows that they're in power. There's no point in dog whistling. 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.240 They're just using ICE to establish an ethno state. They're 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:29.199 using explicit ethno state rhetoric. In a post from this 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.880 morning which has one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:37.880 eight nine ten words not fourteen ten words. Wow, DHS 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:43.160 said quote, serve your country, defend your culture, no undergraduate 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:47.359 degree required. Defend your culture. It's not about locking up 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:51.400 criminal migrants. It's about defending a culture from its destruction 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:56.560 through ethnic demographic shifts. They're not trying to obscure what 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.359 they're doing in the slightest No, And I want. 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.000 To return to something else that the Hofstater said that 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:03.919 in that second paragraph that you read about how like 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.159 one of the central conceits is that like, you know, 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.760 there's this giant conspiracy that's being unleashed and the American 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.080 public doesn't know anything about it, and like, yeah, you can. 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.399 You know, it is distressing to a large extent, the 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.000 extent to which people just don't know what the government 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.960 is doing. But also like if you look at any 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.040 pulling at all, but anything the people are doing, everyone 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.480 hates it. There isn't like a secret thing that you 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:28.320 can say to convince people that they're that all these 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.119 people are Nazis, because it's like that's not even a 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:34.560 particularly useful project because everyone fucking hates them already. Like 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.119 trying to fight this in the realm of sort of 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.479 the accumulation of the evidence of conspiracy instead of in 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.600 the realm of like, hi, i'm your neighbor, you also 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.520 fucking hate this. Let's go fucking like do this shop 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.760 people are doing in la and like follow these fucking 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:52.959 ice fans around, right, That is stuff that people are doing, 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:58.280 but it doesn't have the kind of like instant emotional 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.399 gratification and register of yeah, trying to like accumulate hordes 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.600 of secret knowledge, so people do it less even though 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:06.440 it's less effective. 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.520 In my discussion of this, like online on various cursed 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.199 social media sites, I've gotten a lot of pushback to 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:17.760 my pushback of these tactics and what I what I 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:21.080 see as a sort of like abuse of anti fascist education, 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.520 right because people like you know, Robert Evans, myself, you know, 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:28.320 Molly Conger spent the past eight years trying to actually 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.280 you know, educate people about like Nazi rhetoric, like in 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.760 like Nazi signals and dog whistles, right and as an 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:39.600 attempt to hopefully prevent them from expanding their power. And 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.159 we may have succeeded in education, but we may have 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:49.000 failed in the prevention, yeh, of them seizing power. And 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.560 that also makes me kind of question the effectiveness of 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.480 certain tactics. And it's now very odd to see things 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.480 that we you know, argued for visibility around to kind 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.240 of be used in a way is that don't really 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.840 make sense that it's it's kind of like trying to 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.679 tame a monster that you've partially created. And it's so 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.800 frustrating to me because I mean, one person who I 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.280 was lightly arguing about the SOD line was saying, like, 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.679 this is not numerology, and we don't have to be 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:23.800 just okay with a clear attempt to normalize white nationalist rhetoric. 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:28.200 And like, first of all, like codes aren't rhetoric. Codes 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:33.240 are codes, And the textual fascist sentence is the rhetoric. 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:37.120 What they're actually like saying, which has like proto fascist 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:42.240 or fascistic aspects, that is the rhetoric and they're doing it. 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.720 Is there somebody out there in twenty twenty five who's 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.520 gonna finally realize that DHS has an agency has fascistic 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.239 underpinnings via a chronically online Twitter user explaining that if 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.280 you count words and turn certain captize letters into numbers, 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.879 it makes a secret Nazi message? Is there one person 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:02.879 is going to become given to us? No, that's not 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:05.280 the purpose, And so trying to conceptionize this is like 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:07.880 we have to we have to make sure we call 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.840 out the use of Nazi rhetoric that doesn't apply to 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.040 this specific thing that we're talking about. 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:16.480 Yeah, and also like I think you know like I 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.320 think we've sort of kind of just to some extent, 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.000 we've just failed on the normalization front because again, like 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:23.080 it's the president. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.240 Of the United States. Yeah, this is the. 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.240 Official account of the Department of Homeland Security. It has 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:30.720 already become normalized because they have power. The only way 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.240 to denormalize it is not actually to do media critique. 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.639 It's to like actually oppose them. But that's scary, that's scary. 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.560 Report Mary Meia. Do you know what's easy posting on 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:43.040 X the everything app. 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:46.400 Yeah, this is how this kind of conspiratorial worldview actually 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:51.119 empowers the state, because the central conceit of the conspiratorial 0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:54.359 worldview is that there is a nearly all powerful agency 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:58.080 that controls in apparatus that enables it to basically control 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:00.640 any events that it wants. Right, this is why stage things, 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:02.280 This is why I can recollection. This is why it 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:04.679 can like I don't know, like it can just like 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:08.679 magically like disappear anyone. It can replace them with anyone. 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.080 It can stage any protest movement it wants to. Right, 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:14.720 And I think you've seen this a lot in the 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:17.040 American case, where like I see people who are like 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:19.439 genuinely well meaning leftists who are convinced that if you 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:21.480 do anything to resist the American State, you will immediately 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.000 be killed because the American State is all powerful and irresistible. 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:28.639 And that's just fascist propaganda. Yeah, you're falling victim to 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.959 the Panoptic house. Yeah, but it's fascist propaganda that fits 0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:35.960 into the narrative structure of conspiracy. And because the state 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:41.000 is dangerous, right and can hurt you, it's very very 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:44.040 easy to you know, accumulate structures of evidence that support 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:47.439 the emotional sort of core of this thing that is 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:51.440 just literally fascist propaganda. People are resisting the state every day, right, 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:54.439 Why is ICE fucking doing patriot prayer tactics and fucking 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:57.920 like hiding people in like fucking U hauls to jump 0:23:58.000 --> 0:23:59.600 out and grab people. It's because when they tried to 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:01.800 fucking we stomp them, right. 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:04.240 And when they drive around in their cars and you 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:06.480 can see them through the window, everyone follows them. People 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.119 can follow them around and alert their community members on 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:09.800 where ICE is. 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.960 Like again, mother motherfuckers and fucking Lulu Levin shit are 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.760 like screaming at ICE agents where they trying to arrest people, 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:19.600 Like yeah, that's the actual condition we're in. 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:22.439 And like we get regular people. And that's why I 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:24.600 find some people who would be you know, self described 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:28.600 as like anti fascists or self described as leftists almost 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:32.000 falling into this trap like more so than others. And 0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:34.440 it's a little bit evident of something that like I've 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.000 described as like the forever twenty sixteen, how we're all 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:39.840 kind of stuck in the mindset of this twenty sixteen, 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:42.760 twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen era, and where you have this 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:46.560 unwillingness to realize that that's not the political situation on 0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:50.720 the ground anymore. We are actually not in Charlottesville. This 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:53.960 is a different situation. This is twenty twenty five. And 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:57.320 one other like defense of this, you know, code hunting 0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:01.119 that I've seen people say is, quote, Nazis love playing 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:03.800 games like this, so it's important that we call it out. 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:07.520 And another person saying, quote, this is a fun little 0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:10.920 game for their group chats while they kill and disappear people, unquote, 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:14.159 and like, first of all, this is not a game. 0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:18.280 This is actual people's lives who are being deported, who 0:25:18.320 --> 0:25:21.480 are being sent to foreign prison camps. These are not games. 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:24.960 And I think that view of like anti fascist like 0:25:25.119 --> 0:25:29.760 education risks repeating like the Okay symbol debacle right where 0:25:30.119 --> 0:25:33.720 dog whistles end up being created or spread further due 0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:37.840 to this gamified version of like easter egg anti fascism. 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:40.320 It's kind of like the Barber streisand effect where you 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:44.280 end up almost accidentally making them start doing the thing, 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:49.040 which Nazis always have that like frustrating impulse because they're 0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:52.240 the little bitch boy ideology. I think as a rat, 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:54.800 Limit put it one of one of my favorite posters, 0:25:55.200 --> 0:25:58.600 and like, I'm not saying that Nazi signposting should be ignored, 0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:02.080 but I think we should be thought and careful of 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:05.040 how we do it. To recap the Okay symbol thing 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:08.080 that was invented as like a fake dog whistle to 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:11.960 try to trick leftists into convincing like the media and 0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:13.840 had then having the media try to convinceate with people 0:26:13.960 --> 0:26:17.040 that anyone who uses like the okayhand symbol is secretly 0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:21.280 a fascist. And this scheme worked, and eventually the Oka 0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:24.760 symbol became an actual symbol used for fascists to identify 0:26:24.800 --> 0:26:28.480 each other through this ironic detachment because it was being 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:30.720 talked about in the news as a secret Nazi symbol. 0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:32.720 Even though this whole thing was like invented as like 0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:37.560 a joke online, and I'm afraid I've started to already 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:40.520 see a similar thing happen with the fourteen words dog whistle, 0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:44.680 with an increased use of the fourteen words and invoking 0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:48.840 the fourteen words among far right accounts, specifically because of 0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:52.800 this whole debacle with the DHS gov account, and there 0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:56.960 a heritage to be proud of, homeland worth defending American 0:26:57.040 --> 0:27:02.480 Progress like ethnonationalist posting. And I truly cannot say one 0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:06.720 way or another if that American Progress post had a 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:12.880 intentionally embedded fourteen words dog whistle inside, I can't tell 0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:15.000 you that. And the point of trying to make is 0:27:15.040 --> 0:27:19.920 that it kind of doesn't matter, but the way we 0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:23.239 talk about dog whistles does matter. And as frustrating as 0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:25.720 it is that sometimes this feels like we're just living 0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:28.240 in the meme where the Nazi starts shaving his head 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:33.280 because everyone's calling him a Nazi, that is how Nazis 0:27:33.480 --> 0:27:36.040 works sometimes, And I don't want to play into this 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:40.399 attention spectacle that they so badly want, But you know 0:27:40.440 --> 0:27:41.359 what I do want right now? 0:27:41.520 --> 0:27:43.600 Is it the process and services that support this podcast. 0:27:43.800 --> 0:27:47.240 Another ad break. That's right, be sure to listen for 0:27:47.480 --> 0:28:02.360 the third and fourth hidden clue in these ads. All right, 0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:03.320 we are back. 0:28:03.560 --> 0:28:05.720 To briefly take a small tangent here. I think there 0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:08.800 was something very important about like the fact that role 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:10.920 stuck in twenty sixteen, which was sort of like the 0:28:10.960 --> 0:28:13.720 peak of irony right as a social affect. It has 0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:16.760 left us really unprepared for now where everything is just 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:20.439 sort of like, you know, they're just doing it and 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:23.600 saying it right, yeah, And it's not this sort of 0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:26.800 like irony pill deniability shit. They just do it and 0:28:26.840 --> 0:28:28.119 people are just not prepared for that. 0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:31.160 They're able to wage this war kind of on both fronts, 0:28:31.600 --> 0:28:34.959 and I think they are still pushing this. I'm going 0:28:35.040 --> 0:28:38.560 to quote from a friend of the pod rat Limit 0:28:38.840 --> 0:28:43.200 one of my favorite mutes quote prediction, the Nazi salute 0:28:43.240 --> 0:28:45.840 will become common within two years. Right wingers will half 0:28:45.840 --> 0:28:50.120 asset for plausible deniability, mimify the backlash, and then start 0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:52.400 fully doing it quote unquote as a joke to quote 0:28:52.440 --> 0:28:56.080 unquote troll the Libs for being hysterical enough to think 0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:59.120 that they were doing it in the first place. Fascism 0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:02.000 is a little bit ideology because it's too timid to 0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:04.280 enact as cruelty until it can frame its cruelty as 0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:08.960 retaliation against others for anticipating it. And this has been 0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:12.280 proven right faster than I think what rat limit predicted. 0:29:12.320 --> 0:29:16.200 There's this current trend on x Everything app where white 0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:22.960 girl aspiring influencers are doing Nazi style salutes and trying 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:27.360 to mimify the backlash. Several posts going viral of these. 0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:31.280 Of these like aspiring influencers either at the pool or 0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:35.680 cooking or doing laundry or walking your dog while having 0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:38.440 a your arm in a Elon Musk, my heart goes 0:29:38.440 --> 0:29:42.600 out to you Nazi salute style fashion. Yeah, and I 0:29:42.600 --> 0:29:45.320 think focusing media attention on someone like Musk doing a 0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:48.280 Nazi salute makes sense, right, he is like an actual 0:29:48.320 --> 0:29:52.240 person affiliated with the government, but making a whole media 0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:56.720 blits about random blue check Twitter girls. Maybe not so much. 0:29:56.840 --> 0:30:00.360 Maybe that doesn't have any actual value if of random 0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:04.440 like a random Twitter poster from Missouri is trying to 0:30:04.480 --> 0:30:08.200 garner backlash by doing a Hile Hitler salute in their 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:09.760 kitchen next to their instapot. 0:30:10.480 --> 0:30:13.560 I keep coming back to the thing that I wrote 0:30:13.600 --> 0:30:17.720 about the original loss salute and about the ways that everyone, 0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:20.160 you know, like one of the functions of capitalism is 0:30:20.200 --> 0:30:23.480 that everyone has been trained to experience the world and 0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:26.880 think in the image of action instead of like actually 0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:27.760 existing things. 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:29.240 That's what I want to talk about next. 0:30:29.320 --> 0:30:31.120 Yeah, Yeah, let's do this, Let's do this. Yeah, go 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:31.680 for go for it. 0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:31.840 No. 0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:36.479 I think part of this focus on like these hidden 0:30:36.520 --> 0:30:39.880 codes and even just like these messages online is a 0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:45.080 liberal opposition to the aesthetics of deportation, but not necessarily 0:30:45.200 --> 0:30:48.160 the act itself. Yeah, it's carrying out deportations in a 0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:53.080 mode that seems not in line with like neoliberal governing. 0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:56.280 And that's I think what a bunch of the backlash 0:30:56.320 --> 0:30:58.560 being focused on the aesthetics of the Trump administration, like 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:01.680 how they film like god asmr videos that they post 0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:05.080 from the White House account of deportations and use military planes. 0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:08.640 Those are aesthetic differences, and those differences may be important, 0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:11.800 and they're bad, right, I'm not saying these things are good. 0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:15.320 Those things are still bad. Yeah, But when that gets 0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:19.360 focused on slightly more than just the pure acti deportation itself, 0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:22.400 that I think is evident of being trapped in this 0:31:22.480 --> 0:31:27.120 like capitalist realism, being trapped in this like this neoliberal. 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:29.400 Yeah, the society of the spectacle exactly right. 0:31:29.480 --> 0:31:32.720 Let's like in June, Ice arrested thirty thousand people and 0:31:32.760 --> 0:31:35.719 did eighteen thousand deportations. In May it was twenty four 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:39.600 thousand arrests in eighteen thousand deportations. Since February, the Trump 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:43.280 admin has averaged about fourteen thousand and seven hundred deportations 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:48.000 of month. The highest number of deportations ever was in 0:31:48.040 --> 0:31:53.600 twenty thirteen under Obama, averaging thirty six thousand a month. 0:31:53.960 --> 0:31:58.480 The Biden admin averaged almost thirteen thousand when the Trump 0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:02.680 administration started using military carry planes for deportations back in January, 0:32:03.360 --> 0:32:07.600 mainly as an aesthetic choice that triggered backlash and rejections 0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:12.200 from Mexico and Columbia. Mexico refused to allow US military 0:32:12.240 --> 0:32:15.600 aircraft carrying deported migrants to land in their country. Columbia 0:32:15.640 --> 0:32:18.120 also barred two military planes full of migrants, but later 0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:22.440 caved as Trump threatened unitive tariffs. And you can see 0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:25.000 the same thing about deploying military to the border, something 0:32:25.040 --> 0:32:28.080 that Biden also did but has a larger esthetic backlash 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:30.440 under Trump. Do you have something you want to say 0:32:30.480 --> 0:32:33.600 on this like image aspect I have some quotes from Fisher, 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:34.960 and that's kind of all I have left. 0:32:35.520 --> 0:32:38.760 Yeah, I mean it is very fitting of our styles 0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:40.720 of politics that you're going to Fisher here and I'm 0:32:40.760 --> 0:32:41.880 going to Benjamin. 0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:45.280 Benjamin is quoted in these sections that Fisher is pulling 0:32:45.280 --> 0:32:45.800 from as well. 0:32:46.000 --> 0:32:46.440 Yep, yep. 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:49.440 So I'll go into the source of I'm not going 0:32:49.480 --> 0:32:57.280 through the fucking cru bullshit like pop marksis buschois running doc. 0:32:59.280 --> 0:33:01.360 But no, like, you know, like one of the things 0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:05.240 that that Walter Benjamin, who people genuinely really should read. 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:08.720 He's one of the great original theorists of fascism, and 0:33:08.840 --> 0:33:13.320 he fucking died trying to leave the Nazis. And one 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:16.000 of his arguments was that, you know, one of the 0:33:16.000 --> 0:33:20.480 cores of fascism is the replacement of politics with aesthetics. Right, 0:33:20.920 --> 0:33:25.080 that aesthetics would allow you to you know, feels like, 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:28.760 feel representation instead of do the action. And this is 0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:30.440 this is an analysis that has been sort of like 0:33:30.720 --> 0:33:34.840 folded through a whole bunch of different analyzes of how 0:33:34.880 --> 0:33:36.920 capitalism functions. Right, this is this is one of the 0:33:36.920 --> 0:33:39.280 three lines of the society a spectacle, and it's this 0:33:39.720 --> 0:33:42.160 real issue that we're dealing with now because again kind 0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:46.960 of in a sense, what has happened to everything, right, 0:33:47.000 --> 0:33:49.040 And you can argue to some extent that like our 0:33:49.760 --> 0:33:52.560 channel being called cool zone media is sort of this 0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:56.520 is that all politics from every side has been completely 0:33:56.560 --> 0:33:59.640 reduced to aesthetics. And completely reducing it to aesthetics allows, 0:34:00.200 --> 0:34:02.840 like allows the fascist mode of politics to simply draw 0:34:03.000 --> 0:34:04.800 in a bunch of people who can sort of just 0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:08.640 now passively experience living through these sort of through the 0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:11.880 sort of collection of images and this emotional aesthetic. Yeah, 0:34:11.920 --> 0:34:13.600 and it also is doing the same thing to us. 0:34:13.680 --> 0:34:15.920 But the thing is they have the fucking state and 0:34:16.000 --> 0:34:18.960 we don't, right, And so if you don't fucking exit, 0:34:19.120 --> 0:34:21.200 if you don't exit the sort of mirror world of 0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:25.160 esthetic of sort of like of fucking living in images, right, 0:34:25.920 --> 0:34:27.960 and you know, go do the actual shit that the 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:29.960 board is talking about in the society a spectacle where 0:34:30.000 --> 0:34:32.120 you and all your friends formed workers councils and fucking 0:34:32.160 --> 0:34:34.920 start taking all of the shit back from all of 0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:36.880 the people who are taking it from you. You're just 0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:38.520 gonna live in the fascist timare forever. 0:34:38.560 --> 0:34:40.279 I mean, you could look at the union resistance to 0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:43.480 iced importations, specifically in La with restaurant workers that it's 0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:46.320 literally doing that. And like I would argue, like now, 0:34:46.760 --> 0:34:50.200 it's not so much that fascism is politics as aesthetics, 0:34:50.200 --> 0:34:53.560 but especially now, it is an aestheticized politics. And you 0:34:53.600 --> 0:34:55.880 can even see that in so far as its focuses 0:34:55.920 --> 0:34:58.799 on you know, like race and like ethnic purity, like 0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:03.000 blood and soil. That's why they're posting American progress driving 0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:07.200 out the indigenous people with the aryan white lady carrying 0:35:07.239 --> 0:35:10.360 the torch of progress. It is an ascetis sized politics 0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:13.600 on like a very pure level. And again, to quote 0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:20.040 from my goat this antioat quote Mark Fisher in capitalist 0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:25.440 realism quote, ultra authoritarianism and capital are by no means incompatible. 0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:30.840 Internment camps and franchise coffee bars coexist. Neoliberals, the capitalist 0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:34.160 realists par excellence have celebrated the destruction of public space, 0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:37.160 but contrary to their official hopes, there is no withering 0:35:37.200 --> 0:35:39.480 away of the state, only a stripping back of the 0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:44.160 state to its core military and police functions. Unquote. This 0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:46.719 is very similar to something that me and Mia talked 0:35:46.760 --> 0:35:49.520 about right as Trump got elected in terms of the 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:52.400 state becoming more removed but hostile. 0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:55.479 Yeah, although although I see again, I disagree. It's fisial 0:35:55.520 --> 0:35:57.359 here because the neo liberals understood what they were doing 0:35:57.400 --> 0:35:58.800 to begin with. They were never trying to wither the 0:35:58.800 --> 0:36:00.880 state away. That was just the lies they told the 0:36:00.920 --> 0:36:04.560 fucking basses like su I mean, that's what contrary. 0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:07.040 To their yeah yeah, and it's like you know. 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:11.759 Quote, such a blight can only be eased by an 0:36:11.760 --> 0:36:15.399 intervention that can be no more anticipated than was the 0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:18.640 onset of the curse in the first place. Action is pointless, 0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:23.279 only senseless. Hope makes sense. Superstition and religion the first 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:27.880 resorts of the helpless proliferate unquote. This is part of 0:36:27.920 --> 0:36:30.440 what I conceptualize as this code. Hunting is almost a 0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:35.000 form of this hopeless superstition. To continue, quote, the catastrophe 0:36:35.120 --> 0:36:38.520 is neither waiting down the road, nor has it already happened. Rather, 0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:41.680 it is being lived through. There is no punctual moment 0:36:41.719 --> 0:36:44.239 of disaster. The world doesn't end with a bang. It 0:36:44.320 --> 0:36:49.279 winks out, unravels, gradually falls apart. What caused the catastrophe 0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:52.800 to occur? Who knows its cause? Lies long in the past, 0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:55.359 so absolutely detached from the present as to seem like 0:36:55.640 --> 0:36:59.440 the caprice of a maligned being a negative miracle, a 0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:03.080 milidation in which no penance can ameliorate. The turn from 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:08.000 belief to aesthetics, from engagement to spectatorship is held to 0:37:08.040 --> 0:37:12.560 be one of the virtues of capitalist realism unquote. And yeah, 0:37:12.600 --> 0:37:14.800 that's what me is talking about with Gidebor and society 0:37:14.800 --> 0:37:17.719 of the spectacle. That's a trap that I think a 0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:21.600 lot of people are falling into right now. And though 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:25.680 it's arguable that living in a liberal contradiction may be 0:37:25.800 --> 0:37:29.759 preferable to fascist authoritarianism, that still as that mean it's 0:37:29.760 --> 0:37:33.560 like good, right, That's not what we're arguing here. Fisher 0:37:33.680 --> 0:37:37.160 then quotes French philosopher A Lawn Badeu quote to justify 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:40.879 their conservatism. The partisans of the established order cannot really 0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:44.600 call it ideal or wonderful, so instead they've decided to 0:37:44.600 --> 0:37:47.880 say that all of the rest is horrible. Sure, they say, 0:37:48.160 --> 0:37:51.240 we may not live in a condition of perfect goodness, 0:37:51.560 --> 0:37:53.200 but we are lucky that we don't live in a 0:37:53.200 --> 0:37:56.359 condition of evil. Our democracy is not perfect, but it's 0:37:56.360 --> 0:38:00.320 better than bloody dictatorships. Capitalism is unjust, but it's not 0:38:00.440 --> 0:38:04.280 criminal like stalinism. We let millions of Africans die of AIDS, 0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:09.000 but we don't make racist nationalist declarations like Lamosovich. We 0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:11.680 kill Iraqis with our airplanes, but we don't cut their 0:38:11.719 --> 0:38:16.400 throats with machetes like they do in Rwanda. And already 0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:19.839 parts of this are slightly outdated. Oh yeah, because we're 0:38:20.360 --> 0:38:23.600 shit now, Like, but this is the thing is both 0:38:23.680 --> 0:38:26.200 are tragedies where millions of people die, right. One of 0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:29.480 them is through the aesthetics of neoliberalism. The other one 0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:32.919 is through asthetics of racist nationalistic declarations, which the Trump 0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:35.920 administration is currently playing with. That is what they decided 0:38:35.960 --> 0:38:39.120 to do. Yeah, and so the reaction to it is 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:43.040 on this aesthetic note, not necessarily on this pure actual 0:38:43.160 --> 0:38:47.440 humanistic opposition to deportations as a process that is inhumane 0:38:47.440 --> 0:38:48.799 that we should not allow at all. 0:38:49.400 --> 0:38:49.680 Yeah. 0:38:49.719 --> 0:38:52.040 I see the logic of this all the fucking time. 0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:53.759 Talking to people, We're like, we'll be like, okay, like 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:56.160 no deportations, and then you get a whole bunch of 0:38:56.200 --> 0:38:58.319 people being like, wow, but what about criminals just. 0:38:58.280 --> 0:38:59.960 Like some some deportation. 0:39:00.680 --> 0:39:04.279 This is the structural logic of the original like deportation 0:39:04.400 --> 0:39:05.560 blitz from Trump. 0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:07.400 Creating a class of undesirables that you can then always 0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:09.239 add to and press the border on, like what Karl 0:39:09.280 --> 0:39:10.000 Schmidt talks about. 0:39:10.040 --> 0:39:11.640 This is the structural logic of fascism. 0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:15.919 But everyone thinks about deportations this way now, and they're 0:39:15.960 --> 0:39:18.000 mad that Trump is doing it and not Biden. 0:39:18.560 --> 0:39:19.920 But you know, until. 0:39:19.640 --> 0:39:23.759 People actually break through the sort of pure opposition to 0:39:23.760 --> 0:39:27.759 the aesthetics and actually start, you know, having a kind 0:39:27.760 --> 0:39:30.520 of totalizing opposition to the system that is doing this, 0:39:30.760 --> 0:39:31.879 we're just going to be stuck here. 0:39:32.600 --> 0:39:34.680 And this is I think one of the limits of 0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:39.680 using anti fascism as this like aesthetic code hunting, is 0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:43.800 because a few days ago, the THHS posted a Woody 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:47.560 Guthrie song, his song America the Beautiful, with the DHS 0:39:47.600 --> 0:39:50.840 posting the promise of America is worth protecting the future 0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:54.279 of our homeland is worth defending. Notably, everyone in this 0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:57.400 video is all white people, which this sentiment is the 0:39:57.440 --> 0:40:01.680 same thing as the fourteen words, except it has fifteen words, 0:40:01.760 --> 0:40:05.480 so therefore not a Nazi dog whistle. We're safe, guys, 0:40:05.480 --> 0:40:08.160 we're good. I counted the words. There's fifteen of them, 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:11.600 so you can disregard what the actual text is saying. 0:40:11.960 --> 0:40:15.880 And I think that is like the prime, the prime 0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:20.680 contradiction in which I am growing increasingly frustrated. So that's 0:40:20.760 --> 0:40:23.760 most of what I have to say about the limits 0:40:23.800 --> 0:40:29.080 of Nazi code hunting and the aesthetics of superstition and 0:40:29.120 --> 0:40:32.360 the paranoid style in American politics. Mia, Do you have 0:40:32.440 --> 0:40:35.000 any any final wise notes? 0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:38.479 The time for Nazi code hunting, if there ever was one, 0:40:38.600 --> 0:40:39.320 has passed. 0:40:39.600 --> 0:40:43.440 It is now time to end the episode right here. 0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:47.200 That's right. It is related for a meeting. Oh and 0:40:47.239 --> 0:40:49.440 if you were able to decode the hidden message in 0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:53.439 the ad break, send the contents of the message via 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:56.840 email to your local congressman to redeem your prize. 0:40:57.239 --> 0:41:08.360 By bye. 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:13.520 So, in case you've been living under a rock to 0:41:13.800 --> 0:41:16.360 ring in the new year, the United States regime decided 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:20.560 to invade Venezuela and kidnap President Maduro and his wife 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:23.880 Celia Flores to put them on trial in the United States. 0:41:24.600 --> 0:41:27.040 Thus far the time of recording, there are one hundred 0:41:27.200 --> 0:41:31.480 reported killed by America's invasion, and Maadua's vice president, Elsa Rodriguez, 0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:34.840 is now acting president of Venezuela. Amduro has been reigned 0:41:34.880 --> 0:41:38.040 in New York. There's not a lot yet known about 0:41:38.040 --> 0:41:42.080 how things played out precisely, so I don't plan on 0:41:42.120 --> 0:41:46.080 Telvin too deeply into my speculations, but many have been 0:41:46.120 --> 0:41:49.880 drawn attention to the similarities between this recent historical moment 0:41:50.360 --> 0:41:55.440 and another notorious US invasion of a nearby Latin American country, Panama, 0:41:55.719 --> 0:41:59.000 back in nineteen eighty nine. Hello and welcome. Take it 0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:02.120 up in here. I'm Addressage and I'm here with. 0:42:02.760 --> 0:42:06.400 Speak James, a person who's been to Panama. I'm excited 0:42:06.400 --> 0:42:08.480 about this one. I saw some good museums when I 0:42:08.520 --> 0:42:09.320 was in Panama. 0:42:10.400 --> 0:42:13.440 I haven't been to any museums. I did visit Panama 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:15.920 at one point, nice and years ago. Yeah, this is 0:42:15.920 --> 0:42:17.280 before I was politically conscious. 0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:21.960 Yeah, okay, Yeah, I was even more politically conscious after 0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:23.920 spending some time at Panama. 0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:27.720 Yeah. I can imagine after reading about what happened. Yeah, 0:42:28.120 --> 0:42:29.799 I could see why you would be. 0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:33.200 Yeah, right, like I obviously people we will inform people 0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:34.520 that they're not aware of the history of the US 0:42:34.520 --> 0:42:39.479 and Panama of two episodes, but having just come from 0:42:39.680 --> 0:42:44.640 watching people who across the Darian Gap being detained, imprisoned, 0:42:44.960 --> 0:42:50.359 and deported from Panama with US funding, and then going 0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:54.320 and seeing the museum with all this history the idea 0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:57.279 that they'd come back to full circle to like the 0:42:57.400 --> 0:43:01.640 US effectively using Panama as externalization of its own border, 0:43:01.719 --> 0:43:05.239 like the US said its Homeland Security secretary to the 0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:09.560 inauguration of the current Panamanian president, Like it was really just, 0:43:11.239 --> 0:43:14.280 i know, not great, Like it didn't make me happy. 0:43:14.440 --> 0:43:17.600 Yeah, I mean there's a long history of that kind 0:43:17.640 --> 0:43:21.920 of collaboration between those governments. Yeah, for that and for worse. 0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:24.480 And so that's really what we're going to look into today, 0:43:24.640 --> 0:43:27.960 you know, the history of US intervention in Panama, so 0:43:28.080 --> 0:43:31.279 we can hopefully understand why comparisons are being drawn to 0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:36.040 the US invasion of Venezuela here in turn twenty six. Yeah, 0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:38.799 So in case you did know to some basic facts 0:43:38.800 --> 0:43:42.080 about Panama, it's a country on the Isthmus connecting Central 0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:45.520 America to South America border in Costa Rica and Columbia. 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:49.080 That's a population of just over four million people, and 0:43:49.160 --> 0:43:51.839 it is best known, of course for its canal, which 0:43:51.880 --> 0:43:56.000 is a real feat of human engineering with an unfortunate 0:43:56.040 --> 0:43:59.360 tragedy behind it, that links the Pacific Ocean to the 0:43:59.400 --> 0:44:03.440 Atlantic and via the Caribbean Sea. This canal is one 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:06.719 of the principal reasons why the US has so long 0:44:06.800 --> 0:44:10.520 been invested in the fate of this still Spanish speaking country. 0:44:11.040 --> 0:44:12.919 So you see, if they go all the way back 0:44:12.960 --> 0:44:16.680 to eighteen twenty one, where as a member of the 0:44:16.719 --> 0:44:21.239 newly minted Republic of Grand Columbia, the country gained independence 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:25.480 from the crumbling Spanish Empire. But after that Republic of 0:44:25.520 --> 0:44:29.319 Grand Columbia dissolved in eighteen thirty one, Panama remained part 0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:32.600 of Columbia until, with US back in, it seceded in 0:44:32.680 --> 0:44:36.919 nineteen oh three. Now, Panama had actually tried to gain 0:44:36.920 --> 0:44:40.320 its independence from Columbia before then, in eighteen thirty, eighteen 0:44:40.320 --> 0:44:44.120 thirty one, and eighteen forty, but among many other reasons, 0:44:44.160 --> 0:44:47.280 despite being part of Columbia, it didn't have any roads 0:44:47.320 --> 0:44:49.520 connecting it to the rest of Columbia due to the 0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:52.600 Darian Gap. Can you tell me a bit more about 0:44:52.640 --> 0:44:54.719 that part of the world, because I know you have 0:44:54.719 --> 0:44:56.600 a lot of intimate knowledge of it. 0:44:57.040 --> 0:45:00.280 Yeah. Absolutely, I'd still no road to go through the Darienage. 0:45:00.560 --> 0:45:04.680 It's extremely mountainous and extremely jungly, and it has some 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:07.879 very large and powerful rivers. Right. You know, I spent 0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:11.719 time in the Darien myself. When you talk to indigenous 0:45:11.719 --> 0:45:13.840 people who lived in Daddy and now. But I remember 0:45:13.880 --> 0:45:16.360 speaking to a guy, Senor Bonniell was his name, and 0:45:16.480 --> 0:45:19.440 he said to me, like, how could we be unkind 0:45:19.480 --> 0:45:21.719 to immigrants. Many of us are migrants too. We go 0:45:21.800 --> 0:45:26.760 to Panama for education, I mean center from the Panamanian border. 0:45:26.760 --> 0:45:29.640 Patrol slash military are there in small numbers, but like, 0:45:29.800 --> 0:45:33.400 essentially you are outside of the state in this area right. 0:45:33.520 --> 0:45:35.960 Certainly in terms of provision of services, it's very little, 0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:40.759 and that's because largely it is geographically very difficult to access. 0:45:41.000 --> 0:45:43.280 To get there. Just to sort of paint people a picture, 0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:46.160 I took a plane. Then I drove all the way 0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:48.640 to the paved road till that ended. And then I 0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:51.400 hitched a ride on a truck all the way on 0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:53.879 the unpaved road until that ended. And then I hitched 0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:56.839 a ride in a dugout canoe that was literally a 0:45:56.880 --> 0:45:58.880 log that someone hollowed out, and I took that for 0:45:58.920 --> 0:46:01.560 about five hours, and then I walk for a while, 0:46:02.280 --> 0:46:04.760 and that was how I got to where I stayed. 0:46:05.040 --> 0:46:08.960 It's still extremely difficult for people to cross, and I guess, 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:11.319 like you know, I like to read James Scott. I 0:46:11.360 --> 0:46:13.719 think about the way he thought about the art of 0:46:13.760 --> 0:46:15.279 not being governed, right, and it's still one of those 0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:18.280 areas that it's hard for the state to extract tribute from. 0:46:19.120 --> 0:46:23.160 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean it's impressive to me that 0:46:23.239 --> 0:46:27.440 despite these challenges, thousands of people managed to traverse through 0:46:27.480 --> 0:46:29.320 the Daring Gap every year. Yeah. 0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:31.000 I mean, people wouldn't do it if they didn't think 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:33.360 that what they were going to leave behind was worse. 0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:37.759 But it is one of the most harrowing journeys, one 0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:39.680 of the most difficult journeys a person can make. Like 0:46:39.680 --> 0:46:43.839 you're shimming along cliff edges on you know, a few 0:46:43.840 --> 0:46:46.120 inches of rock, and if you fall, you will die. 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:49.359 You're crossing a river, a river that was chest high 0:46:49.360 --> 0:46:54.640 for me, I'm six foot three, and people are carrying toddlers, babies. 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:58.280 Someone gave birth in the jungle while I was there. 0:46:58.560 --> 0:47:04.600 It's unimaginable. People die every day. I saw that myself. 0:47:05.040 --> 0:47:09.279 It's incredibly dangerous and difficult journey, but people take it 0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:10.920 because they want a better chance at life. 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:15.319 Right, Yeah, yeah, And so you could imagine if it's 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:20.239 so difficult differs even now, how much more difficult it 0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:25.200 would have been back then, with even less infrastructure between 0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:30.239 the regions of Panama and Columbia. Yeah, so at that 0:47:30.280 --> 0:47:33.560 point in time, Panama was mainly conducting trade, which was 0:47:33.560 --> 0:47:35.680 a state at the time was mean in conducting trade 0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:39.680 with its Caribbean neighbors rather than Columbia's capital. You know, 0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:43.280 they were very geographically isolated from the rest of Columbia. 0:47:44.120 --> 0:47:48.000 But despite that fact, Panama only succeeded in gain its 0:47:48.000 --> 0:47:51.879 independence with the help of the US as American ambitions 0:47:51.960 --> 0:47:56.960 and local elite ambitions aligned for development of the canal. Now, 0:47:57.000 --> 0:48:00.520 all this and what follows was recommented in Emperors and Jungle, 0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:03.160 The Hidden History of the US and Panama by John 0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:07.120 Lindsay Poland, which I picked up my library and it 0:48:07.160 --> 0:48:10.239 was really a fantastic book that served as my main 0:48:10.640 --> 0:48:15.400 resource for this research. In NCA Poland's words, Panama was 0:48:15.480 --> 0:48:20.360 a longstanding laboratory of US imperial power and some of 0:48:20.360 --> 0:48:22.560 the things I found out about in this book I 0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:26.080 never heard of anywhere, and it really shook me that 0:48:26.200 --> 0:48:28.839 these kinds of things were happening, you know, at this 0:48:29.719 --> 0:48:31.680 crossroads of continents. 0:48:32.200 --> 0:48:32.919 Yeah. 0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:36.000 So I've been saying the US involvement in the country 0:48:36.200 --> 0:48:41.800 even preceded its independence, with eleven American interventions taking place 0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:44.680 in just the pre independent state of Panama between eighteen 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:49.040 fifty six and nineteen oh two, and irrationale for bringing 0:48:49.080 --> 0:48:52.800 in the military usually involved, you know, claims of protecting 0:48:52.840 --> 0:48:58.120 American interests, particularly during insurrectionary or revolutionary activity in the country. 0:48:58.760 --> 0:49:01.279 And of course, because it's a mara, they always had 0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:04.759 a heavily racialized approach to the region. You know, they 0:49:04.760 --> 0:49:08.879 saw the Colombian army as ignorant mongrels, and they saw 0:49:08.920 --> 0:49:15.440 the Panama Isma's civilians as savage and animal like, especially 0:49:15.440 --> 0:49:18.520 as Americans and American capital were involved in the construction 0:49:18.880 --> 0:49:22.400 of the Panama Canal railway, which was built between eighteen 0:49:22.400 --> 0:49:25.800 fifty and eighteen fifty five to facility the Californian gold Rush. 0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:30.000 You see America as iron Panama for a long time 0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:32.000 because they saw it as an appealance side for a 0:49:32.080 --> 0:49:36.880 trans Isthmus Canal, the next big project in international trade. 0:49:36.960 --> 0:49:39.799 And aside from their direct interventions, they were signed in 0:49:39.840 --> 0:49:44.600 treaties concerning Panama even before Panama was independent, while I 0:49:44.640 --> 0:49:47.840 was expanding in its territory through the conquest of Mexico, 0:49:48.200 --> 0:49:51.160 the US signed the Bidlack Treaty with Colombia in eighteen 0:49:51.200 --> 0:49:55.600 forty six to guarantee Colombian control over Panama in exchange 0:49:55.600 --> 0:49:59.120 for free access to any future canal. As we all know, 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:06.120 a MA always keeps its promises. So only four years later, 0:50:06.440 --> 0:50:10.280 in eighteen fifty, the US and England assigned the Clayton 0:50:10.560 --> 0:50:15.240 Bulward Treaty, which ensured their joint cooperation in any future canal. 0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:17.960 You know, not, as I said, the US and England 0:50:18.160 --> 0:50:23.720 signed that treaty. Yeah, because Columbia was not involved at all. 0:50:24.320 --> 0:50:28.200 Yeah. Are you familiar with the Scottish attempt to colonize 0:50:28.239 --> 0:50:28.680 the Dadian? 0:50:29.040 --> 0:50:31.719 No, that didn't come up. I mean I've missed that. 0:50:31.840 --> 0:50:34.719 I think it's previous to the dates you're covering that 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:37.839 Scotland attempted to colonize the Daddi and in they think 0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:43.360 called the Darien scheme. Basically, much of the Scottish bourgeoisie 0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:48.000 pulled their capital to do this, right, the idea that 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:51.120 there would be a Scottish colony. Obviously, at that time, 0:50:51.360 --> 0:50:56.040 colonialism was seen as the route to national security and 0:50:56.080 --> 0:50:59.239 independence prestige. Yeah, and then you know, they wanted to 0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:01.640 keep up with the English who were busy colonizing and 0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:03.839 pillaging much of the world, so they attempt to set 0:51:03.880 --> 0:51:06.640 up a colony in one of the least hospitable places 0:51:06.640 --> 0:51:11.439 on the planet unsuccessfully. You know, people got malaria. When 0:51:11.480 --> 0:51:13.600 I was there, I was told that every type of 0:51:13.640 --> 0:51:16.000 malaria is present in the gap just because you have 0:51:16.000 --> 0:51:19.160 such a global population of people, right that the Mosquitoes 0:51:19.160 --> 0:51:21.799 are buying someone from East Africa, then they're buying you, 0:51:21.880 --> 0:51:26.000 then they buying someone from West Africa, South America, Nepal. 0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:28.800 You know that the Mosquitos is getting a global buffet. 0:51:28.840 --> 0:51:31.000 So back then obviously still malaria. 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:32.640 It's like a mosquito convention. 0:51:33.040 --> 0:51:36.879 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like a mosquito vector. Disease got 0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:42.560 old mine the Scottish boards was he significantly lost to 0:51:42.600 --> 0:51:44.640 such an extent that like we can point to this 0:51:44.719 --> 0:51:48.000 scheme of one of the reasons that Scotland continues to 0:51:48.000 --> 0:51:53.280 be colonized by England right down. Yeah, Yeah, it's wild. 0:51:53.600 --> 0:51:55.719 I think you will probably learn about it now if 0:51:55.719 --> 0:51:57.440 you're going to school, if you're going to school in 0:51:57.440 --> 0:51:59.200 Scotland or you've been to school in Scotland, you learned 0:51:59.200 --> 0:52:01.040 about it. I'd love to hear from you. But yeah, 0:52:01.280 --> 0:52:04.560 the Darien scheme was this kind of idea of a 0:52:04.600 --> 0:52:07.239 Scottish empire that ended up completely backfiring. 0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:11.840 Yeah. I just looked it up as the late sixteen nineties. Yeah, 0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:16.040 to set up a colony called New Caledonia. Yeah, I mean, 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:17.920 and that was their first attempt I set it up 0:52:17.920 --> 0:52:20.920 a colony. I mean, way to pick them. 0:52:21.040 --> 0:52:23.960 Yeah yeah, right, like throw a dark at the map 0:52:24.000 --> 0:52:25.800 and you couldn't land to the place, so it's less 0:52:25.840 --> 0:52:28.520 like Scotland. It does rain a lot other than that. 0:52:28.640 --> 0:52:30.480 Yeah, I mean, as like trying to set up your 0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:32.680 first colony in like Antarctica or something. 0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:36.520 Yeah. Yeah, Like I don't know how whether they just 0:52:36.520 --> 0:52:38.640 felt like it looks like no one else is hanging 0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:41.040 around there, and obviously at that point in time, they 0:52:41.040 --> 0:52:44.160 weren't concerned with indigenous people, right, like yeah, they felt 0:52:44.160 --> 0:52:47.120 that there was no other state projecting its force there, 0:52:47.320 --> 0:52:50.520 or like what, I don't understand how they all because 0:52:50.560 --> 0:52:53.160 they I think I read somewhere that there have been 0:52:53.200 --> 0:52:55.360 several attempts to build a canal through the day in 0:52:55.440 --> 0:52:58.960 I think it's it's actually slightly narrower there. So whether 0:52:59.280 --> 0:53:01.160 they were early in that and just sor right, well, 0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:03.799 we'll establish ourselves here and then as we'll build a 0:53:03.800 --> 0:53:04.640 canal a bit later. 0:53:05.120 --> 0:53:07.520 Yeah, well, of course it didn't quite work out. 0:53:07.840 --> 0:53:09.440 Yeah, it didn't go that way for them, sadly. 0:53:20.120 --> 0:53:23.400 So the US and England they signed the Treaty to 0:53:23.480 --> 0:53:27.640 Ensure Joint Cooperation in the Future Canal. And then during 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:32.160 the American Civil War, President Iram Lincoln advanced the proposal 0:53:32.200 --> 0:53:37.000 to establish a colony of emancipated and deported black Americans 0:53:37.080 --> 0:53:40.759 in southwestern Panama because you know, he didn't believe black 0:53:40.800 --> 0:53:42.839 and white people could live together, right. 0:53:42.920 --> 0:53:44.839 Yeah, this proposal was. 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:48.520 Scrapped due to Colombian, Central American and Black American opposition. 0:53:49.200 --> 0:53:54.320 But it's interesting to think about there being almost a 0:53:54.400 --> 0:53:58.719 Liberia in the western hemisphere, you know, because the Liberian 0:53:58.760 --> 0:54:00.880 project was an attempt are doing similarly. 0:54:01.320 --> 0:54:03.360 Yeah, that's wild to think about. 0:54:04.080 --> 0:54:07.359 And so after quite a few of their pre Panamanian 0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:12.600 independence military interventions, it's quite a mouthful, thank you, past Andrew. 0:54:13.840 --> 0:54:16.799 The US was hitching to build the canal that they 0:54:16.880 --> 0:54:21.719 always wanted. They were feeding for a gateway to the Pacific, 0:54:21.920 --> 0:54:24.160 and they did not like that when France tried to 0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:27.080 build their own canal through Panama from eighteen seventy nine, 0:54:27.120 --> 0:54:29.319 to eighteen eighty nine, but they didn't have, you know, 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:32.120 enough of us saying it, because why the hell is 0:54:32.160 --> 0:54:35.680 France in America's backyard as far as they're considered. Yeah, right, 0:54:36.360 --> 0:54:40.160 The Monero doctrine was established in eighteen twenty three, so 0:54:40.200 --> 0:54:43.160 it had to be activated then and there. And of 0:54:43.200 --> 0:54:46.320 course they didn't just want a canal for mercantile or 0:54:46.440 --> 0:54:51.359 geopolitical reasons. Remember they had just conquered several states in 0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:55.320 Mexico and reached the Pacific Sea to shine and sea, 0:54:55.400 --> 0:54:58.799 as they like to say. Unluckily for them, they were 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:03.000 still quite a lot of Native Americans and Mexicans still 0:55:03.040 --> 0:55:06.360 living in the western plains and West coast. Plus you 0:55:06.400 --> 0:55:09.040 had a lot of Asian immigration to the West coast 0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:14.399 as well, and the leaders of Americas didn't exactly appreciate that. 0:55:14.480 --> 0:55:18.160 You know, they wanted northern European stock to populate the 0:55:18.200 --> 0:55:22.440 western coast, unpolluted by having to share a railroad with 0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:27.759 black and brown Panamanians. Yea, So they have to get 0:55:27.760 --> 0:55:30.520 a canal so the whites don't have to step foot 0:55:30.680 --> 0:55:33.719 off their boats and mingle with the locals, you know, 0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:35.279 because then they could stay on their boats, they could 0:55:35.320 --> 0:55:37.839 go through they never have to breathe the same air 0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:41.760 as the local inhabitants of Panama. And so after wrapping 0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:44.880 up their war with Spain, having newly minted colonies in 0:55:44.920 --> 0:55:49.880 the Philippines, Guam, and Hawaii, they really really wanted a 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:55.000 maritime shortcut to continue their great empire building ambihops because 0:55:55.000 --> 0:55:58.120 they see having to spend sixty seven days to reach 0:55:58.160 --> 0:56:01.960 from San Francisco to Cuba. They didn't like that, you know, 0:56:02.040 --> 0:56:05.319 going all the way around the Patagonian hu and all that. 0:56:05.320 --> 0:56:09.920 That's not fun. So the US created an opportunity for itself. 0:56:10.000 --> 0:56:13.560 After Columbia Civil War between the Liberals and the Conservatives 0:56:14.000 --> 0:56:18.120 that you know raged between eighteen ninety nine to nineteen two. 0:56:18.960 --> 0:56:21.920 Here's what happened. In Panama City. Most of the white 0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:24.120 elites tried to stay out to the conflict, but in 0:56:24.120 --> 0:56:27.440 the rural interior there was a different story as the 0:56:27.480 --> 0:56:32.040 liberals found support among the mestizo peasants. In Panama, the 0:56:32.080 --> 0:56:37.000 civil war was less focused on parties whether you're a 0:56:37.000 --> 0:56:40.040 liberal or conservative. It started off like that, but became 0:56:40.160 --> 0:56:44.960 a mass uprising against the distant conservative government in Bogota. 0:56:45.320 --> 0:56:48.600 So after several major battles, liberal forces had taken control 0:56:48.640 --> 0:56:52.320 of almost all of Panama's interior, and that's when the 0:56:52.400 --> 0:56:55.880 US society started in. They used the bid Lactreaty of 0:56:55.880 --> 0:56:59.160 eighteen forty six as justification to bring in their military 0:56:59.239 --> 0:57:04.040 to protect and said across Panama, in particular the real Way. Thus, 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:06.960 the liberals were unable to finish their victory and had 0:57:07.000 --> 0:57:09.839 to sign a peace agreement. And in the following months, 0:57:09.880 --> 0:57:12.760 liberal forces regrouped and once again took control of nearly 0:57:12.840 --> 0:57:17.120 all of Panama except Cologne and Panama City, and once 0:57:17.160 --> 0:57:20.640 again the US got involved and blocked Liberal entry into 0:57:20.640 --> 0:57:24.160 those cities. The US made it impossible for the liberals 0:57:24.160 --> 0:57:27.520 to win, so they surrendered and signed one last peachtreat 0:57:27.880 --> 0:57:31.000 in November nineteen o two. And in the civil war 0:57:31.960 --> 0:57:35.400 and all that for what? Because more than sixty eight 0:57:35.440 --> 0:57:40.400 percent of Panama's cattle was wiped out, agriculture had collapsed. 0:57:40.720 --> 0:57:44.920 The armies on both sides committieder atrocities. You know, thousands 0:57:44.920 --> 0:57:48.360 of civilians fled into the mountains. Entire towns were emptied 0:57:48.680 --> 0:57:53.160 as people were escaping conscription and violence. Have you ever 0:57:53.200 --> 0:57:54.960 read the book One Hundred Years of Solitude? 0:57:56.320 --> 0:57:59.920 When I was like in just out of high school. 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:02.000 Did Yeah, Okay, I read it. 0:58:02.040 --> 0:58:04.160 Last year, so when I was doing this research, it 0:58:04.200 --> 0:58:06.000 was like top of my mind. Yeah, because you know, 0:58:06.120 --> 0:58:08.760 part of that book covers that Columbia and Civil War. 0:58:09.880 --> 0:58:10.840 I should read it again. 0:58:11.240 --> 0:58:13.560 It was pretty good. I had some very weird stuff. 0:58:13.600 --> 0:58:17.440 It was pretty good, right, yeah, Yeah, it's good to 0:58:17.600 --> 0:58:20.640 I'm trying to read more fiction right now. It helps me. 0:58:21.080 --> 0:58:23.120 Yeah. Even though it was fiction, I think it pains 0:58:23.120 --> 0:58:26.680 a really grim picture of that Civil war. 0:58:27.040 --> 0:58:27.240 Yep. 0:58:27.400 --> 0:58:29.840 And so I could have in reading this, I could 0:58:29.880 --> 0:58:32.320 have pictured what was taking place because the book was 0:58:32.360 --> 0:58:35.960 over it. Yeah, you know, rural Panama was absolutely devastated, 0:58:36.720 --> 0:58:40.680 and yet the transit zone was of course untouched, the 0:58:40.800 --> 0:58:45.120 railroad and the port. The commerce captain going and with 0:58:45.200 --> 0:58:48.360 the liberal peasantry defeated, but the conservatives in the US, 0:58:48.800 --> 0:58:52.240 the conservative elites in Panama City were best positioned and 0:58:52.320 --> 0:58:57.280 negotiate for their own ambitions. With the war over, President 0:58:57.560 --> 0:59:01.000 Roosevelt was looking to finally negotiate for Panama canal rights. 0:59:01.840 --> 0:59:03.600 And if you couldn't get a deal with the French 0:59:03.640 --> 0:59:07.240 canal company there was ready to sell or the governments 0:59:07.240 --> 0:59:10.400 of Colombia. He had permission from Congress to pursue a 0:59:10.440 --> 0:59:15.440 canal in Nicaragua instead. Interesting the French company was definitely 0:59:15.480 --> 0:59:18.680 ready to offload their investment, because you know, there were 0:59:18.720 --> 0:59:21.320 multiple attempts to set up a canal. The French had 0:59:21.360 --> 0:59:23.960 their attempt and they were ready to get it off 0:59:24.040 --> 0:59:29.080 of their hands, right. But the Colombian government rejected America's 0:59:29.160 --> 0:59:32.960 hey Hran Treaty, which offered what they considered an inadequate 0:59:33.080 --> 0:59:37.800 ten million dollars in exchange for sweeping canal rights. So 0:59:37.840 --> 0:59:43.520 America made them an offer they couldn't refuse. What happened 0:59:43.520 --> 0:59:46.160 next was that Roosevelt and a French share holder named 0:59:46.200 --> 0:59:50.000 Philippe Punao Veria struck up a little side deal of 0:59:50.040 --> 0:59:53.120 their own, and the US Navy got orders to prevent 0:59:53.240 --> 0:59:57.360 Colombia from crushing any uprising on the Isthmus. Would their 0:59:57.360 --> 1:00:00.080 circumstances being what they were on the ground in Panama 1:00:00.160 --> 1:00:03.360 without Columbia intervention due to the US blockade, it didn't 1:00:03.400 --> 1:00:07.440 take long for Panamanian forces to declare independence. Finally, in 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:10.680 nineteen oh three. The Big Black Treaty the US had 1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:14.040 signed with Columbia was supposed to protect Columbia's control over 1:00:14.120 --> 1:00:17.960 Panama and ensure free transit throughout the Isthmus and the 1:00:18.040 --> 1:00:21.960 US did basically the complete opposite. You know, that's what 1:00:22.080 --> 1:00:25.520 makes them such an excellent partner on the global stage. 1:00:25.520 --> 1:00:28.720 You can always count on them to uphold, you know, 1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:34.640 the highest standards of moral and and diplomatic decency. So 1:00:35.320 --> 1:00:38.840 before you know it, America was recognizing a newly independent 1:00:38.880 --> 1:00:42.919 Panama and drafting up a treaty with bunal Veria, who 1:00:43.000 --> 1:00:46.080 the new Panama government had given permission to negotiate a deal. 1:00:46.720 --> 1:00:48.960 But I'm thinking that they may not have known that 1:00:48.960 --> 1:00:52.920 bunal Veria had already practically signed them away. They didn't 1:00:52.960 --> 1:00:54.440 like the fact that they would behold on to a 1:00:54.480 --> 1:00:58.040 treaty that no Panamanian had signed. But if the US 1:00:58.080 --> 1:01:01.760 made sure that the Panamanian government understood that if they 1:01:01.800 --> 1:01:05.520 didn't like the treaty, the Navy could always just let 1:01:05.560 --> 1:01:08.360 the Columbian Army come in to lift their independence in 1:01:08.400 --> 1:01:10.640 the bud. You know, it's like, oh, you don't like, 1:01:10.680 --> 1:01:13.040 who's going at us? Well, you know, it'd be a 1:01:13.040 --> 1:01:16.480 real shame if the Columbia Navy came back in to 1:01:16.600 --> 1:01:20.080 the picture. So the New Canal Treaty gave the US 1:01:20.120 --> 1:01:22.640 far more than they had even expected to get from 1:01:22.680 --> 1:01:26.720 the deal. They claimed permanent control over a ten mile 1:01:26.840 --> 1:01:31.520 wide canal zone, inherited the French canal works and the railroad, 1:01:31.880 --> 1:01:36.080 and secured the right to seize land anywhere in Panama 1:01:36.240 --> 1:01:40.160 if they deemed it necessary for the canal's defense, operation 1:01:40.720 --> 1:01:43.680 or sanitation and trust and believe they would use that 1:01:43.760 --> 1:01:47.560 privilege to seize land at nineteen different times between nineteen 1:01:47.560 --> 1:01:51.200 o eight and nineteen thirty one, cumulatively hundreds of square 1:01:51.240 --> 1:01:56.040 miles thousands of acres, often without notice or compensation, and 1:01:56.280 --> 1:02:01.280 always justified as necessary for canal defense. The canal's zone 1:02:01.360 --> 1:02:05.080 was removed from Panamanian courts all together, and the US 1:02:05.160 --> 1:02:09.320 was authorized to police Panama City and Cologne and build 1:02:09.400 --> 1:02:15.160 military garrisons. Panama's new constitution made it an effective US protectorate. 1:02:16.040 --> 1:02:18.960 Article one hundred and thirty six explicitly allowed the United 1:02:19.000 --> 1:02:23.880 States to intervene militarily anywhere in Panama to restore public 1:02:23.920 --> 1:02:29.240 peace and constitutional order. Civilization, as Roosevelt argued, was the 1:02:29.440 --> 1:02:32.880 urgent mandate for all these actions toward building the Canal. 1:02:33.080 --> 1:02:36.560 Jesus construction officially began in nineteen oh four in a 1:02:36.640 --> 1:02:40.720 Panama exhausted by civil war, quanted by the French failure, 1:02:41.000 --> 1:02:45.640 and politically dependent on Washington. So he said, you had 1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:50.000 been to the canal zone and the museums and stuff, 1:02:50.720 --> 1:02:52.640 Can you tell me a bit about what you know 1:02:52.960 --> 1:02:54.160 about the canal's construction. 1:02:55.160 --> 1:02:59.040 They were very good at this part. I remember this 1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:03.160 part of very well. They had accounts from the workers, 1:03:03.360 --> 1:03:05.680 you know, the people who were in some cases like 1:03:06.080 --> 1:03:09.520 essentially forced labor. Right, they had accounts of what their 1:03:09.600 --> 1:03:13.240 lives were like. They had like sort of the ephemera 1:03:13.360 --> 1:03:14.920 of their lives, which is always in like you know, 1:03:14.960 --> 1:03:16.640 like in museums. It helps to create a picture. 1:03:16.680 --> 1:03:16.840 Right. 1:03:16.880 --> 1:03:19.320 They're like the sort of the things that they were fed, 1:03:19.600 --> 1:03:23.000 the shitty shoes that they got, given pictures of the 1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:26.880 sleeping situations, and accounts from doctors. Right, because a lot 1:03:26.920 --> 1:03:29.640 of people became unwell because they were exposed to all 1:03:29.680 --> 1:03:32.960 these conditions and diseases that they hadn't been exposed to before. 1:03:33.560 --> 1:03:35.640 So they did a good job. I felt like painting 1:03:35.680 --> 1:03:40.760 how horrendous life was for people who were digging out 1:03:40.800 --> 1:03:44.160 the panamaketal. Yeah, they had a two tier system, right, 1:03:44.240 --> 1:03:47.680 I think it was the gold ticket. Yes, Yeah, they 1:03:47.680 --> 1:03:50.000 were explaining how life was so much more difficult the 1:03:50.000 --> 1:03:51.720 lower down that system you found yourself. 1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:52.400 Yeah. 1:03:52.560 --> 1:03:56.440 Yeah, the whole construction of this feat of engineer and 1:03:56.600 --> 1:03:59.920 was you know rightfe would suffering Yeah, and that's suffering 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:03.240 often came like in a very racialized way. Yes, as 1:04:03.280 --> 1:04:06.160 you mentioned, there was a gold role and a silver role. 1:04:06.080 --> 1:04:06.440 That's it. 1:04:06.560 --> 1:04:07.080 Yeah. 1:04:07.200 --> 1:04:10.520 So even prior to canal construction, Panama is already a 1:04:10.600 --> 1:04:13.880 very racially divided society. You had the white elites in 1:04:13.920 --> 1:04:17.560 the capital, you had the mestizo peasants, you had poor 1:04:17.560 --> 1:04:21.480 black and Mulatto communities, and you also the indigenous peoples 1:04:21.520 --> 1:04:25.160 who were not even counted in official census counts. 1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:25.640 Wow. 1:04:26.400 --> 1:04:29.959 And among the canal workforce in particular, it was quite 1:04:30.000 --> 1:04:32.440 a lot of black laborers who were either descendants of 1:04:32.440 --> 1:04:36.360 people emancipated from slavery in eighteen fifty two or migrants 1:04:36.360 --> 1:04:39.280 from the British Caribbean who drawned to Panama during the 1:04:39.360 --> 1:04:44.800 railroad construction project and the French canal construction project. And 1:04:44.840 --> 1:04:47.000 so the US took this social landscape and made it 1:04:47.040 --> 1:04:51.240 worse by introducing racial hierarchy with the gold role in 1:04:51.320 --> 1:04:55.040 silver rule that determined your pay, your housing, your medical care, 1:04:55.080 --> 1:04:57.960 and even how you were buried. You know, the American workers, 1:04:58.040 --> 1:05:01.400 the white American workers in the canalskan instruction, occupied the 1:05:01.400 --> 1:05:04.440 gold role and the Caribbean laborers were pushed onto the 1:05:04.480 --> 1:05:07.439 silver role. They had to perform the most dangerous work 1:05:07.760 --> 1:05:11.000 under the worst conditions, and so during the US construction 1:05:11.080 --> 1:05:14.920 phase alone, roughly fifty six hundred workers died from disease 1:05:15.320 --> 1:05:20.040 and accidents, and the overwhelming majority were the Caribbean laborers. Sadly, 1:05:20.080 --> 1:05:24.360 their deaths were treated as expendable losses. Is an engineering 1:05:24.400 --> 1:05:28.760 project framed as a triumph of civilization. The Canal construction 1:05:28.880 --> 1:05:43.520 finally concluded in nineteen fourteen, and so after its independence, 1:05:43.800 --> 1:05:47.600 During the Canal construction and afterwards, Panama faced eight further 1:05:47.800 --> 1:05:52.160 US military interventions, including the famous ninety eighty nine invasion, 1:05:52.520 --> 1:05:54.920 which we'll get to in the next episode. But take 1:05:54.960 --> 1:05:57.920 a guess as to what their rationale was for these interventions. 1:05:58.600 --> 1:06:03.360 They protecting a business interest, US capital. 1:06:03.680 --> 1:06:07.720 Ding ning ning, ning ning, protecting US citizens and property, 1:06:08.240 --> 1:06:13.120 maintaining control and stability, preserving US strategic and political interests, 1:06:13.800 --> 1:06:19.200 all that usual stuff. Yeah, particularly whenever Panamanians were struggling 1:06:19.280 --> 1:06:22.840 for their rights against the elites. The US would get involved. Yeah, 1:06:23.440 --> 1:06:26.760 the U s supervised elections, they oversaw the police force, 1:06:27.040 --> 1:06:31.280 they vetoed public spending whenever it wanted, and the US 1:06:31.400 --> 1:06:35.280 bases lined the canal with thousands of troops explicitly for 1:06:35.320 --> 1:06:39.240 the purpose of maintaining quiet and protecting property in Panama. 1:06:40.080 --> 1:06:43.720 Panama's whole political history in the twentieth century was basically 1:06:43.960 --> 1:06:47.439 shaped and dictated by US interests. In nineteen oh four, 1:06:47.880 --> 1:06:52.240 when general Isteban Whereas a threatened revolt, the US officials 1:06:52.240 --> 1:06:55.960 pressured Panama's president to fire him and dissolve the army entirety. 1:06:56.720 --> 1:07:00.520 In nineteen ten, when Vice President Carlos Mendoza, a liberal 1:07:00.600 --> 1:07:03.640 mulatto married to a black woman, seemed likely to win 1:07:03.680 --> 1:07:08.360 the presidency, the US Chief of Mission, Richard marsh threatened 1:07:08.400 --> 1:07:13.120 occupation if he were elected, so Mendoza withdrew his candidacy. 1:07:13.680 --> 1:07:17.720 During World War One, the garrison commander used occupation imposed 1:07:17.760 --> 1:07:22.440 moral reforms by shutting down saloons and prostitution and publicly 1:07:22.520 --> 1:07:27.439 denouncing Panamanian cities as dens of vice and in the countryside, 1:07:27.560 --> 1:07:33.520 ostensibly to protect American landowners, US troops drunkenly abused, stole, 1:07:33.680 --> 1:07:37.760 and burned homes for two whole years until they finally withdrew, 1:07:38.840 --> 1:07:41.400 and in nineteen twenty five, the US came into Panama 1:07:41.440 --> 1:07:45.480 City to crush a Renter strike. Panama also became a 1:07:45.640 --> 1:07:49.240 regional launch part for the US Empire. The Marines were 1:07:49.280 --> 1:07:53.160 stationed there, whore repeatedly deployed in Nicaragua, Mexico, and beyond. 1:07:53.840 --> 1:07:57.040 For the US Empire, the costs could always be externalized 1:07:57.080 --> 1:08:00.800 to Panama. Panama was an imperial laboratory for the US 1:08:00.840 --> 1:08:04.000 to test ideas and weapons they felt were risky to 1:08:04.040 --> 1:08:07.480 test at home. During World War Two, they tested various 1:08:07.560 --> 1:08:11.720 chemical weapons in Panama on nature and people, with minimal 1:08:11.760 --> 1:08:15.160 disclosure and almost no regard for long term environmental and 1:08:15.240 --> 1:08:16.240 human consequences. 1:08:16.640 --> 1:08:17.080 Esis. 1:08:17.320 --> 1:08:19.880 They also left behind unexploded Venetians. 1:08:20.120 --> 1:08:21.000 That is horrible. 1:08:21.560 --> 1:08:25.439 Yeah, it gets worse, Okay, great. In the nineteen fifties 1:08:25.479 --> 1:08:31.800 and sixties, US officials seriously proposed using nuclear explosions, Yeah, 1:08:32.640 --> 1:08:35.479 to carve a new sea level canal through Panama. So 1:08:35.479 --> 1:08:36.280 you've heard about this. 1:08:36.520 --> 1:08:40.320 Yeah, New Kingda Darien was there. One of the little 1:08:40.360 --> 1:08:42.840 strategies that they've thought about. I think they thought about 1:08:42.880 --> 1:08:46.240 again when the bisentennial of the United States that have 1:08:46.320 --> 1:08:49.040 been nineteen seventy six. One of the things they wanted 1:08:49.080 --> 1:08:52.840 to do is complete the Pan American Highway. Have it 1:08:52.920 --> 1:08:55.759 run all the way up from the northern tip of Alaska. 1:08:55.800 --> 1:08:58.800 I guess so, I think goes from Canada Actueen all 1:08:58.840 --> 1:09:01.880 the way down to Argentina. I think, geta can we 1:09:02.240 --> 1:09:04.200 can we just nuke the Darien and we'll just join 1:09:04.240 --> 1:09:05.360 them up and they'll be fine. 1:09:05.840 --> 1:09:10.280 Yeah. Yeah, they were really gung who about nukes. Yeah, 1:09:10.320 --> 1:09:13.160 at that point in time in history, you know. 1:09:13.520 --> 1:09:14.080 Yeah. 1:09:14.520 --> 1:09:17.600 The Panama Canal In case you don't know those of 1:09:17.640 --> 1:09:19.840 your listeners at home, the Panama Canal is not a 1:09:19.880 --> 1:09:23.240 sea level canal. It actually it climbs a mountain LOOKI 1:09:23.760 --> 1:09:26.360 you know. So it has several steps where it's like 1:09:26.400 --> 1:09:29.440 the water is released and there's like a floated mechanism, 1:09:29.520 --> 1:09:34.080 and it's it's kind of inconvenient just there's traffic backed 1:09:34.120 --> 1:09:37.000 up of boats waiting for their chance to get into 1:09:37.000 --> 1:09:40.200 the canal. And so the idea of sea level canal is, 1:09:40.200 --> 1:09:42.160 you know, so much more convenient if you didn't have 1:09:42.160 --> 1:09:45.160 to wait for all those mechanisms to you know, drain 1:09:45.320 --> 1:09:48.479 and fill and all those different things. Yeah, but nuke 1:09:48.520 --> 1:09:52.120 in the canal to create a new sea level canal's 1:09:52.120 --> 1:09:53.200 really not the best idea. 1:09:53.479 --> 1:09:55.439 No, Yeah, it's wild to think about. 1:09:56.360 --> 1:09:56.599 Then. 1:09:56.600 --> 1:09:59.280 I guess they got nukes relatively recently. They were like, okay, 1:09:59.280 --> 1:10:01.920 what can we do with these? Like yeah, yeah, what 1:10:01.960 --> 1:10:05.160 else can we Now you'll see when you're in Panama City, 1:10:05.200 --> 1:10:09.200 you see boats like sort of hanging out around the canal. Yeah, 1:10:09.200 --> 1:10:11.360 it's waiting to enter those those locks. 1:10:11.520 --> 1:10:15.280 And I mean, obviously the consequences of a nuclearicate is 1:10:15.280 --> 1:10:19.440 a canal be disastrous. Entire regions that have been irradiated, 1:10:19.760 --> 1:10:24.040 populations would have been displaced, ecosystems de altered. And yet 1:10:24.479 --> 1:10:29.520 these seriously, with a straight peace consider this plant. Yeah, 1:10:29.600 --> 1:10:32.479 because you know who cares about the people outside the 1:10:32.520 --> 1:10:33.360 Imperial center? 1:10:33.600 --> 1:10:37.040 Sure? Yeah, Like what the Embra people and the Guna 1:10:37.080 --> 1:10:38.920 people who live down there, Like what do they matter 1:10:39.000 --> 1:10:39.320 to them? 1:10:39.400 --> 1:10:39.599 Right? 1:10:39.960 --> 1:10:42.360 And this is after they've dropped a nuke. It's not 1:10:42.400 --> 1:10:44.599 like they're like postulating here, like. 1:10:44.680 --> 1:10:46.800 Yeah, it's not that they don't know what nukes do. 1:10:46.960 --> 1:10:50.360 Yeah, they've seen this happen in Japan. Right, We're like 1:10:50.400 --> 1:10:53.719 a decade since they know that it's still killing people. 1:10:54.280 --> 1:10:57.840 Yeah, there are places and canals and structures that have 1:10:57.840 --> 1:11:01.240 been irrigated, caves style and stuff using dynamite, you know, 1:11:01.400 --> 1:11:06.000 tn T you know, basic communitions and explosive devices. And 1:11:06.040 --> 1:11:09.160 that's one thing, right, I don't know what it's like 1:11:10.439 --> 1:11:12.479 more of that. It's like, let's just school as big 1:11:12.479 --> 1:11:13.240 as we kind of go. 1:11:14.280 --> 1:11:19.759 Right, it's not understanding the fundamental difference, right, Like nuclear 1:11:19.760 --> 1:11:22.400 blast is of an entirely different nature too. 1:11:23.040 --> 1:11:25.519 Yeah, I mean it could have very easily end up 1:11:25.520 --> 1:11:27.840 affect in the US as well, right, Yeah, you know, 1:11:27.920 --> 1:11:31.160 the occurrents could have carried if they fall out into 1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:35.320 the southern US, into the West coast. You know, it's 1:11:35.560 --> 1:11:39.280 yea into other countries in the region as well. Yeah. 1:11:39.600 --> 1:11:42.120 I visited one of the places that the United States 1:11:42.200 --> 1:11:44.880 nuked after World War Two, right in the Republic of 1:11:44.880 --> 1:11:50.200 the Marshall Islands, and they completely failed to account for 1:11:50.320 --> 1:11:54.960 even prevailing winds, right, like the fallout directly engulfed small 1:11:55.040 --> 1:11:58.519 Japanese fishing vessel. That was just happened to be because 1:11:58.520 --> 1:12:00.960 I didn't tell anyone, right, and then they just dropped 1:12:00.960 --> 1:12:03.080 a nuclear boy told some people to see they evacuated. 1:12:03.080 --> 1:12:05.920 People are living on the island, but they dropped a 1:12:06.000 --> 1:12:07.800 nuclear barn and then we're just like, oh, wow, it's 1:12:07.800 --> 1:12:10.800 blown off over there. Did the result in people being 1:12:10.840 --> 1:12:11.960 severely irradiated? 1:12:12.479 --> 1:12:15.000 You know, it's like unch of scientists, you know, then 1:12:15.040 --> 1:12:17.759 their next and furiously scribbled on some notes. 1:12:18.320 --> 1:12:21.639 Fascinating people have attempted to get back to their island 1:12:21.680 --> 1:12:23.320 because at one point they were told that they could 1:12:23.439 --> 1:12:25.439 and they absolutely like it wasn't safe for them. But 1:12:26.240 --> 1:12:29.519 like the the coconuts and the crabs and the fish 1:12:29.560 --> 1:12:32.559 and the reefs are still irradiated, They're still not safe 1:12:32.560 --> 1:12:35.759 for them. People still have one of the highest rates 1:12:35.800 --> 1:12:39.599 of still birth in the world. Yeah, the stories they 1:12:39.640 --> 1:12:43.800 tell about miscarrying pregnancies are heartbreaking. Yeah, because they didn't 1:12:43.840 --> 1:12:45.320 know what was going on, right. 1:12:45.520 --> 1:12:47.719 The human and environmental and that it's awful. 1:12:48.200 --> 1:12:49.240 Yeah, it's terrible. 1:12:49.760 --> 1:12:53.160 And so it took resistance from Panamanians, from scientists, and 1:12:53.200 --> 1:12:56.760 from a growing global environmental movement to put an end 1:12:56.800 --> 1:13:02.280 to this reborsal. Now, as is the kneeature of interventions, 1:13:03.240 --> 1:13:08.040 after a certain point, they started weighan because you know, 1:13:08.120 --> 1:13:13.760 the intervening power has created this setup that they find preferential, 1:13:14.040 --> 1:13:16.400 you know, so while they're setting up they may have 1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:19.519 to intervene on repeated occasions, but once they get to 1:13:19.520 --> 1:13:23.160 a certain point where their control over that area is crystallized, 1:13:23.160 --> 1:13:26.559 they don't have to intervene as explicitly as often, so 1:13:26.720 --> 1:13:29.960 direct US interventions waned as time went on, but the 1:13:30.080 --> 1:13:33.800 tensions continue to build in Panama for independence from the US, 1:13:34.600 --> 1:13:38.280 and these tensions flared in January nineteen sixty four, which 1:13:38.280 --> 1:13:40.839 would get the ball rolling for a new treaty between 1:13:40.880 --> 1:13:44.479 the countries that will replaced the previous hay Banal for 1:13:44.520 --> 1:13:47.920 the year treaty. So, since that nineteen oh three treaty, 1:13:48.040 --> 1:13:52.320 Panamanians want to get revisited and revised. Remember, they didn't 1:13:52.360 --> 1:13:54.720 want to agree to it in the first place. They 1:13:54.720 --> 1:13:58.120 were kind of coerced into its terms. Both the US's 1:13:58.120 --> 1:14:02.000 proposal to create a new sea that canal without nukes, 1:14:02.400 --> 1:14:05.920 which would require cooperation with the Paraminians there would be 1:14:05.920 --> 1:14:09.680 forced to say he was Paramian demands into consideration, and 1:14:09.720 --> 1:14:13.479 so as a concession to Panamanian nationalism, US President John F. 1:14:13.560 --> 1:14:17.839 Kennedy and Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson developed a policy 1:14:18.120 --> 1:14:22.040 that would fly the Panamanian flag alongside the American flag 1:14:22.200 --> 1:14:25.439 ou La la in certain parts of the Canal Zone, 1:14:26.120 --> 1:14:29.360 and then JFK was assassinated in November nineteen sixty three, 1:14:30.200 --> 1:14:34.000 and then in January of the following year, Balboa High School, 1:14:34.080 --> 1:14:37.600 which was an American school in the Canal Zone, refused 1:14:37.600 --> 1:14:41.880 to fly either flag. So on January ninth, nineteen sixty four, 1:14:42.280 --> 1:14:46.520 American students decided to raise the American flag for freedom 1:14:46.640 --> 1:14:52.280 or whatever, and Paramanian students from Panama's National Institute marched 1:14:52.280 --> 1:14:54.920 to the school to raise their own flag, and then 1:14:54.960 --> 1:14:58.240 there's a scuffle, and then the Panamanian flag is torn, 1:14:58.680 --> 1:15:01.439 and then that scuffle becomes a riot, where twenty four 1:15:01.520 --> 1:15:06.400 Panamian civilians and four US soldiers were killed in the fighting. Yeah, 1:15:06.640 --> 1:15:10.599 and hundreds of Pamelian civilians were injured by the American crackdown. 1:15:11.280 --> 1:15:14.720 That Panamanian flag is in the museum, the Panama cat 1:15:14.760 --> 1:15:15.880 Now Museum. 1:15:15.760 --> 1:15:16.719 The one that got torn. 1:15:17.320 --> 1:15:17.519 Yeah. 1:15:17.840 --> 1:15:20.840 Oh, that's impressive. I have to go and see that then. Yeah. 1:15:20.920 --> 1:15:22.799 Yeah, it's really it's a good museum. 1:15:22.840 --> 1:15:25.519 So that's a real big piece of history because that 1:15:25.560 --> 1:15:27.479 whole riot led to everything else. 1:15:27.880 --> 1:15:28.080 Yeah. 1:15:28.160 --> 1:15:31.200 No, that is like it's a pivotal like artifact of 1:15:32.000 --> 1:15:33.000 their national history. 1:15:33.560 --> 1:15:35.880 Yeah, it's like for want of a nil the horse 1:15:36.000 --> 1:15:39.160 was lost. It's like for want of a ripped flag. Yeah, 1:15:39.280 --> 1:15:43.000 Panamanian independence was lost. Yeah, yeah, obviously that's an atal 1:15:43.120 --> 1:15:46.599 allowance to that, but it's such a unique artifact of history. 1:15:46.920 --> 1:15:49.680 Yeah, it's cool to be like this pivotal moment, like 1:15:49.720 --> 1:15:50.759 this thing was present. 1:15:51.360 --> 1:15:51.639 Yeah. 1:15:51.920 --> 1:15:55.000 Sometimes when I'm in Spain, I'll kick around antiques markets 1:15:55.040 --> 1:15:58.120 and find like, like a newspaper to see that this 1:15:58.200 --> 1:16:01.680 newspaper was on the street the same day, right that 1:16:01.720 --> 1:16:05.880 the Spanish military was defeated in Barcelona. You can see 1:16:05.960 --> 1:16:08.800 sometimes people like sheltering behind newspaper stands, right, it's a 1:16:08.840 --> 1:16:11.599 exchange fire with the soldiers and things like, oh, this 1:16:11.600 --> 1:16:13.559 thing was present at this pivotal moment. 1:16:13.840 --> 1:16:16.000 Yeah, yeah, it was there for that piece of history 1:16:16.040 --> 1:16:17.439 that more months in time. Yeah. 1:16:17.760 --> 1:16:19.960 I like to acquire those things when I when I can. 1:16:20.840 --> 1:16:23.760 Something I would like to acquire though, is a bit 1:16:23.800 --> 1:16:27.560 of rubble or something from one of the other actions 1:16:27.760 --> 1:16:32.360 that day. The protesters also burned several American buildings, including 1:16:32.439 --> 1:16:36.479 entire plans, airlines, and the US Information Agency. I'm wondering 1:16:36.520 --> 1:16:39.240 if that piece of history is also in the museum. 1:16:39.560 --> 1:16:42.559 Yeah, I think those buildings are still around, like some 1:16:42.720 --> 1:16:45.000 or some of those canals, some of the Canal company 1:16:45.000 --> 1:16:47.439 buildings are still around because you can you can see 1:16:47.439 --> 1:16:48.840 them when you're driving around. 1:16:49.080 --> 1:16:52.120 And so, in response to that whole riot situation, the 1:16:52.160 --> 1:16:56.960 Panamanian President Robert docci Abi cut diplomatic relations with the 1:16:57.040 --> 1:17:01.280 US and demanded a renegotiation of the treaty. A few 1:17:01.280 --> 1:17:05.840 months later, in April nineteen sixty four, diplomatic ties were 1:17:05.840 --> 1:17:08.519 re established in an effort to resolve the conflict between 1:17:08.560 --> 1:17:13.120 the countries. These negotiations would be ongoing for years afterwards. 1:17:13.520 --> 1:17:15.960 In fact, one of the reasons the idea of the 1:17:16.040 --> 1:17:19.439 nuclear excavation was considered in the first place was that 1:17:19.479 --> 1:17:23.640 it didn't require as much Paramanian labor cooperation as a 1:17:23.680 --> 1:17:26.759 typical canal project would, and because tensions were so tense 1:17:26.800 --> 1:17:31.080 that Panama, they were like, let's circumvent them and just 1:17:31.080 --> 1:17:35.040 just opening up ourselves. But when the nuclear canal project collapsed, 1:17:35.280 --> 1:17:38.040 and with mountain pressure from the Paramanians, the stage was 1:17:38.080 --> 1:17:40.120 set for the US to pull back its more direct 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:43.160 and open medland in the country, at least for the while. 1:17:43.880 --> 1:17:47.559 JFK's vice president Lyndon Johnson won the presidency in November 1:17:47.640 --> 1:17:51.240 nineteen sixty four, and as the annalyustry of the riots approached, 1:17:51.600 --> 1:17:54.920 he resolved to figure out that new treaty, explore c 1:17:55.120 --> 1:17:58.479 level canal preparations, and settle things with the contingency of 1:17:58.520 --> 1:18:02.760 Americans in office sought to preserve America's perpetual ownership of 1:18:02.800 --> 1:18:08.080 the canals, including the famous white supremacist art conservative Strom Trummer. 1:18:08.479 --> 1:18:10.240 If you know anything about trum Thum, and you know 1:18:10.600 --> 1:18:13.519 that like fok found in kitchen, you know the fact 1:18:13.560 --> 1:18:16.759 that this guy was against Panaminians having control over the canal. 1:18:17.000 --> 1:18:18.880 It's not surprised. And this is the guy who set 1:18:19.080 --> 1:18:23.320 a country record for philibustering against the Civil Rights Act. 1:18:23.960 --> 1:18:27.559 Yeah. Yeah, I think it was beaten recently by Corey Booker, 1:18:27.600 --> 1:18:30.679 who set a world record for filibustering about not very much. 1:18:31.439 --> 1:18:32.640 Yeah, I think I could about that. 1:18:32.760 --> 1:18:32.960 Yeah. 1:18:33.120 --> 1:18:35.120 He talked about Don Trump for a while and then 1:18:35.400 --> 1:18:37.080 he finished up and went and voted for a bunch 1:18:37.080 --> 1:18:38.120 of Trump appointees. 1:18:38.360 --> 1:18:43.240 It's like the Democratic Party response is like, you stop that, 1:18:43.320 --> 1:18:46.439 you meani, and then they just do whatever. Yeah, whatever 1:18:46.520 --> 1:18:48.200 Trump wants anyway. 1:18:48.040 --> 1:18:49.479 Yeah, you're not allowed to do you know, you're not 1:18:49.520 --> 1:18:52.200 allowed to do that. 1:18:52.200 --> 1:18:53.560 That's against the rules. 1:18:54.000 --> 1:18:57.599 Yeah, they summoned the Reddit moderators, is the democratic response. 1:18:57.600 --> 1:19:00.160 But yeah, if there was a cause during the time 1:19:00.160 --> 1:19:02.320 he was in office and it would have made the 1:19:02.400 --> 1:19:05.840 world better, you can probably count on Strom being against it. 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:08.760 Yeah, yeah, pretty much. 1:19:09.400 --> 1:19:10.839 Yeah. 1:19:10.880 --> 1:19:13.400 And so the Americans they managed to script together a 1:19:13.479 --> 1:19:17.600 treaty in nineteen sixty seven, but the Panamanians didn't ratify it, 1:19:18.280 --> 1:19:21.320 and in the following year, nineteen sixty eight, Panama is 1:19:21.400 --> 1:19:26.920 overtaken by a military who don't dun't dun So if 1:19:26.960 --> 1:19:29.240 you want to know what will happen with the treaty, 1:19:29.400 --> 1:19:32.719 with Panama's political future and how all of this does 1:19:32.800 --> 1:19:35.880 or does not relate to current commissions in Venezuela, because 1:19:35.920 --> 1:19:38.639 I know I have that threat still dangling. Yeah, stay 1:19:38.640 --> 1:19:41.400 tuned for the next episode this has When it can 1:19:41.439 --> 1:19:44.920 happen here, I'm andrews Age. I'm here with James Stout 1:19:45.240 --> 1:19:48.960 and as always, all power to all the people. This 1:20:02.000 --> 1:20:05.200 The year was nineteen sixty eight, and the military coup 1:20:05.240 --> 1:20:09.360 had just rocked the Isthmian country of Panama. Welcome to 1:20:09.400 --> 1:20:13.040 it could happen here. I'm Andrew Sage, joined again by. 1:20:14.800 --> 1:20:18.200 James, it's me again. I'm excited to talk about Panama. 1:20:18.120 --> 1:20:18.800 Nearly, mister Q. 1:20:20.120 --> 1:20:20.639 Yeah I did. 1:20:22.120 --> 1:20:23.799 I was forgot who I was for a second. 1:20:24.640 --> 1:20:26.960 And this is the follow up to the last episode 1:20:27.160 --> 1:20:30.280 on the history of US involvement in Panama. So you 1:20:30.320 --> 1:20:32.080 can go back and give that one. Listen if he 1:20:32.160 --> 1:20:36.920 happens already, But in these times of Trump ro doctrine, 1:20:37.160 --> 1:20:39.639 I want to take us back to this particular moment 1:20:39.720 --> 1:20:43.400 in Iama's first history to highlight the parallels with today. 1:20:44.479 --> 1:20:46.720 In short, what we talked about last time was how 1:20:46.760 --> 1:20:51.200 Panama became a testing ground for US Empire. Long before, during, 1:20:51.360 --> 1:20:54.920 and after the construction of the Panama Canal, the US 1:20:54.960 --> 1:20:59.799 had repeated military interventions justified as protecting transit or American 1:20:59.840 --> 1:21:04.839 and wrists, and Washington ultimately backed Panama's break from Columbia 1:21:04.960 --> 1:21:10.000 nineteen oh three secure canal rights on Washington students. This 1:21:10.240 --> 1:21:14.839 independence came with a cost A caveat, a lopsided treaty 1:21:15.040 --> 1:21:18.599 that turned Panama into US protectorate and granted the US 1:21:18.600 --> 1:21:21.680 permanent control over the canal zone and the rest of 1:21:21.720 --> 1:21:26.960 the country. Effectively, the canal's construction itself was an insurance 1:21:26.960 --> 1:21:30.479 feat built on racial hierarchy, and throughout the rest of 1:21:30.520 --> 1:21:33.719 the twentieth century, the US continued to demonstrate its control 1:21:33.840 --> 1:21:37.639 over Panama's politics, the attempts of its people to exercise 1:21:37.720 --> 1:21:42.280 their autonomy, to exercise their their rights, and the US 1:21:42.320 --> 1:21:45.400 of course engaged in the testing of chemical weapons in 1:21:45.439 --> 1:21:47.839 the season of land and the use of the country 1:21:47.920 --> 1:21:53.120 as a regional military launch pad. And yet Pamelians continue 1:21:53.160 --> 1:21:56.760 to resist, continue to challenge US control, and continue to 1:21:56.800 --> 1:22:00.880 demand treaty reform. And so following the nineteenth sixty four riots, 1:22:00.920 --> 1:22:03.920 there was an opportunity to negotiate a new treaty, but 1:22:04.000 --> 1:22:06.799 after the first attempt was rejected by Panama nineteen sixty seven, 1:22:07.200 --> 1:22:10.240 a military coup would rock the country in nineteen sixty eight. 1:22:10.880 --> 1:22:12.680 A feast to get this timeline thanks to my main 1:22:12.760 --> 1:22:16.639 resource for these episodes, Emperors in the Jungle The Hidden 1:22:16.760 --> 1:22:19.839 History of the US in Panama by John Lindsay Poland, 1:22:20.560 --> 1:22:22.680 but he doesn't go into too much depth on the 1:22:22.720 --> 1:22:26.040 military coup specifically, but that I had to look to 1:22:26.120 --> 1:22:30.480 an EPSCO knowledge advantage article by Carl Henry Marco titled 1:22:30.640 --> 1:22:35.080 Omar Torrijos ousts Arias in Panama. What I learned from 1:22:35.120 --> 1:22:38.640 that was there was a coalition of National Guard officers 1:22:39.080 --> 1:22:43.680 that ousted President Arnulfo Arias, who was himself trying to 1:22:43.680 --> 1:22:46.720 consolidate control over the military so they would support his 1:22:46.760 --> 1:22:50.559 future elections by removing those officers he thought he could control. 1:22:51.600 --> 1:22:55.000 So there were apparently racial tensions mixed into the school, 1:22:55.120 --> 1:22:58.400 as officers in the National Guard had increasingly come from 1:22:58.560 --> 1:23:03.160 Mestizo backgrounds as opposed to white backgrounds, which had traditionally 1:23:03.200 --> 1:23:08.160 supported the civilian predominantly white oligarchy. So a coalitionive officers 1:23:08.160 --> 1:23:10.559 tried to change this. At first, they were led by 1:23:10.600 --> 1:23:14.320 a guy named Major Boris Martinez, who seized power and 1:23:14.479 --> 1:23:19.599 ousted areas before anyone thought for a moment the things 1:23:19.640 --> 1:23:23.559 were finally going to radically change in the country. Within months, 1:23:23.680 --> 1:23:27.120 student protests were crushed by the National Guard with arrests 1:23:27.200 --> 1:23:30.800 and beatens, making it clear that the military rule and 1:23:30.840 --> 1:23:35.480 not democracy, was there to stay. Not long after Martinez 1:23:35.479 --> 1:23:39.040 took control, he was himself ousted by a lieutenant colonel 1:23:39.200 --> 1:23:42.280 and the junta's chief of staff in nineteen sixty nine. 1:23:42.680 --> 1:23:47.240 That man was Omar Torrijos Herrera, a Mestizo officer with 1:23:47.360 --> 1:23:50.759 middle class roots. Who sought to challenge the oligarchy. Somewhat 1:23:51.560 --> 1:23:55.240 fun fact, though, Lindsay Poland mentions that Torrijos sued as 1:23:55.240 --> 1:23:58.719 a spy for the US military intelligence from nineteen fifty 1:23:58.720 --> 1:24:02.160 five to nineteen sixty nine, informing the Americans about everything 1:24:02.240 --> 1:24:06.080 from labor unrest and student activities to political issues and 1:24:06.160 --> 1:24:09.680 the Soviet Chinese penetration. Tori Host was one of the 1:24:09.720 --> 1:24:12.720 soldiers who helped suppress the unrest in nineteen sixty four. 1:24:12.720 --> 1:24:16.599 In fact, oh well, but in power. Publicly, he styled 1:24:16.640 --> 1:24:20.839 his military rule as reformist. He pushed through land reforms 1:24:20.840 --> 1:24:23.840 that opened up estates long when applies by elites, and 1:24:23.920 --> 1:24:28.280 promised change for rural Panama. But although these reforms were popular, 1:24:29.040 --> 1:24:34.240 very few poor Panamanians actually benefited. Meanwhile, he overhauled the 1:24:34.240 --> 1:24:37.040 bank n doors in the country, such as Panama quickly 1:24:37.080 --> 1:24:42.160 became a hub for offshore banking and money laundering. But 1:24:42.240 --> 1:24:44.360 it can't be said that he didn't do anything positive 1:24:44.400 --> 1:24:47.120 for the country because he was the one whom ased 1:24:47.120 --> 1:24:50.360 to establish a new treaty with the US. The US 1:24:50.479 --> 1:24:53.839 was facing international pressure this point for the continued ownership 1:24:53.880 --> 1:24:56.519 of the canal, especially thanks to a nineteen seventy three 1:24:56.600 --> 1:25:00.840 United Nations Security Council session hosted by Torrijo's in Panama City. 1:25:01.280 --> 1:25:04.880 In nineteen seventy seven, Tory Host negotiated Jimmy Carter and 1:25:04.920 --> 1:25:09.360 secured the treaties that promised the Canal's return to Panamanian control. 1:25:10.000 --> 1:25:13.040 The Tory Host Carter Treaties which agreed to transfer the 1:25:13.080 --> 1:25:16.080 canal from the United States to Panama on December thirty first, 1:25:16.200 --> 1:25:19.320 nineteen ninety nine, with the surrounding territory of the canal 1:25:19.400 --> 1:25:22.600 so And returned first in nineteen seventy nine, and the 1:25:22.720 --> 1:25:26.000 US military being allowed to remain the country until nineteen 1:25:26.160 --> 1:25:29.960 ninety nine. But despite this major win, torri Host knew 1:25:30.040 --> 1:25:33.120 his rule was under pressure, so he announced a controlled 1:25:33.160 --> 1:25:37.120 return to civilian government. He created a political party dominated 1:25:37.120 --> 1:25:39.960 by the National Guard. He stepped back from the presidency. 1:25:40.400 --> 1:25:43.840 He installed a civilian figurehead named Aristateius Royo, and he 1:25:43.920 --> 1:25:48.719 promised elections by nineteen eighty four. But then his private 1:25:48.760 --> 1:25:52.759 plane crashed in nineteen eighty one. Which it was funny 1:25:52.760 --> 1:25:55.400 how frequently that happened back in those days. You know, yeah, 1:25:55.640 --> 1:25:59.599 small aircraft doesn't randomly. These political leaders are constantly dying 1:25:59.600 --> 1:26:04.560 and blamed crashes very sad, and so the democratic reforms 1:26:04.640 --> 1:26:09.880 didn't happen. Instead, Torijos's intelligence chief emerged as the new 1:26:10.120 --> 1:26:17.200 military dictator of Panama. His name was Manuel Noriega. Now, 1:26:17.240 --> 1:26:20.360 as Lindsay Poland talks about in the book, Noriega was 1:26:20.439 --> 1:26:23.400 another informant for the US in the mid nineteen fifties, 1:26:24.280 --> 1:26:27.679 but his career in the military wasn't going anywhere because 1:26:27.880 --> 1:26:32.200 he had a history of alcoholism and beaten women until 1:26:32.280 --> 1:26:37.720 Torijo's hand picked him as his intelligence chief. Manuel Noriega 1:26:37.840 --> 1:26:42.160 came up inside a Panamanian National Guard that had been shaped, trained, 1:26:42.200 --> 1:26:44.920 and closely supervised by the US during the Cold War. 1:26:45.680 --> 1:26:49.240 He was educated at Peru's National Military Academy, trained at 1:26:49.240 --> 1:26:52.640 the School of the Americas, took courses in intelligence and 1:26:52.680 --> 1:26:56.360 conter intelligence in nineteen sixty seven, and trained in psychological 1:26:56.360 --> 1:27:00.280 warfare at Fort Benning. By the late nineteen sixties he 1:27:00.360 --> 1:27:04.400 had also become a regular informant for US intelligence. You know, 1:27:04.439 --> 1:27:07.840 he took more than just a few courses. He was 1:27:07.920 --> 1:27:11.840 very much embedded with the Americans and so totally hosts dead. 1:27:12.200 --> 1:27:16.280 Noriega seized the opportunity to take power. Initially the US 1:27:16.400 --> 1:27:19.679 was pretty much okay with this. No Diego had previously 1:27:19.680 --> 1:27:23.520 been a CIA asset, providing intelligence and governments and militaries 1:27:23.560 --> 1:27:28.120 across the region, including Cuba. He had helped suppress leftist movements, 1:27:28.479 --> 1:27:32.880 facilitated US regional operations, and maintain stability around the Canal, 1:27:33.520 --> 1:27:36.599 and for that he was well compensated more than one 1:27:36.680 --> 1:27:40.719 million dollars from the cie WOW, plus at least another 1:27:40.840 --> 1:27:43.760 one hundred and sixty two thousand dollars from the U. 1:27:43.760 --> 1:27:47.120 S Army and the Defense Intelligence Agency. By the early 1:27:47.200 --> 1:27:51.000 nineteen seventies, US agencies already knew that no Diego was 1:27:51.040 --> 1:27:55.360 deeply involved in drug trafficking. In nineteen seventy two, the 1:27:55.400 --> 1:27:59.400 Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs even considered assassinating him. 1:27:59.640 --> 1:28:02.519 But he's just too useful for him to go so soon. 1:28:03.280 --> 1:28:04.040 Yeah. 1:28:04.080 --> 1:28:06.799 So, throughout the Carter years, evidence of his criminal activity 1:28:07.120 --> 1:28:11.040 was building up and was also suppressed because Washington needed 1:28:11.120 --> 1:28:15.120 Paname and cooperation to secure ratification of the Canal treateams. 1:28:15.479 --> 1:28:20.000 But under Reagan the evidence became impossible to ignore, as 1:28:20.040 --> 1:28:22.840 intelligence reports from nineteen eighty three and nineteen eighty five 1:28:23.240 --> 1:28:27.720 documented meetings between nor Diega and Cartail figures permissions to 1:28:27.760 --> 1:28:32.559 manufacture cocaine in Panama and offers to mediate disputes between 1:28:32.640 --> 1:28:33.760 the traffickers. 1:28:34.360 --> 1:28:37.479 I love the mediation, but the best Yeah. 1:28:37.560 --> 1:28:37.720 Yeah. 1:28:37.760 --> 1:28:42.080 He was like, hey, guys, this isn't you. It's come on, 1:28:42.160 --> 1:28:43.680 let's let's have us sit down and talk. 1:28:45.960 --> 1:28:48.280 He was committed to like a non cast, real solution. 1:28:48.439 --> 1:28:51.599 You know. It's great to see. 1:28:53.320 --> 1:28:55.960 Yeah, And and they continue to protect them even with 1:28:56.000 --> 1:28:58.519 that smoking gun. They were like, yeah, Noriega is still 1:28:58.640 --> 1:29:03.080 our guy. They had hoped that he would cooperate with 1:29:03.320 --> 1:29:09.040 contra operations against Nicaragua's Sandinista government THO, but in what 1:29:09.280 --> 1:29:13.879 was I suppose his first strike, he refused to cooperate 1:29:13.880 --> 1:29:17.600 with them on that operation. He also maintained relations with 1:29:17.640 --> 1:29:21.840 both Nicaragua and Cuba, and meanwhile, under his leadership, the 1:29:21.880 --> 1:29:25.639 Panamanian Defense Forces expanded their role in both arms and 1:29:25.760 --> 1:29:29.400 drug smuggling networks, much of it feeding directly into the 1:29:29.479 --> 1:29:33.040 US drug market. So Noriega and the US had to 1:29:33.120 --> 1:29:35.880 break up in the mid to late eighties. And this 1:29:35.920 --> 1:29:39.680 is also thanks to US domestic politics. You see, in 1:29:39.800 --> 1:29:43.479 nineteen eighty six, the Iran contra scandals saw a key 1:29:43.560 --> 1:29:48.160 figures who had shielded Noyeka previously be removed from their positions. 1:29:48.840 --> 1:29:51.160 At the same time, the crack co key and panic 1:29:51.320 --> 1:29:58.040 took over US politics again a very racialized situation. Congress 1:29:58.040 --> 1:30:02.040 had passed sweeping anti drug laws, mandatory minimum sentences, and 1:30:02.120 --> 1:30:05.200 the media was freeing this whole drug problem as a foreign, 1:30:05.760 --> 1:30:13.840 racial black threat. Yeah, Noriego, being a Panamdian dictator, ended 1:30:13.880 --> 1:30:17.880 up being a very useful prop villain of sorts for 1:30:17.920 --> 1:30:22.360 the burgeoning war on drugs. So in February nineteen eighty eight, 1:30:22.840 --> 1:30:27.080 US Grand Juries in Miami and Tampa indicted Noriega for 1:30:27.200 --> 1:30:30.400 drug trafficking linked to activities from nineteen eighty two to 1:30:30.439 --> 1:30:35.639 nineteen eighty four. Sanctions followed within weeks, supposedly to force amount, 1:30:36.120 --> 1:30:39.160 but they didn't. The sanctions called shortages. You can only 1:30:39.240 --> 1:30:43.439 collapse and suffering among ordinary Panamanians. Yet Noriega stayed in 1:30:43.520 --> 1:30:49.160 power used the crisis to justify emergency measures and nationalist rhetoric, 1:30:49.800 --> 1:30:54.160 as is usually the response. I realize with US inflicted 1:30:54.240 --> 1:30:59.160 sanctions they end up creating almost a support base right 1:30:59.320 --> 1:31:02.439 for the administration and power, because you know you're trying 1:31:02.439 --> 1:31:05.040 to make the people suffer and it said people end 1:31:05.120 --> 1:31:08.439 up standing with their government even if they have critiques 1:31:08.479 --> 1:31:09.200 of that government. 1:31:09.520 --> 1:31:11.479 Yeah, right, because they don't want to become another like 1:31:11.600 --> 1:31:14.639 vassal state. And especially in Panama, right, like they've they've 1:31:14.680 --> 1:31:17.320 already been there once or like look at what's happening 1:31:17.600 --> 1:31:20.960 right now in Iran, right, like yeah, HARMANI it's literally 1:31:20.960 --> 1:31:24.000 like he's literally tweeting that the people protesting and Donald 1:31:24.000 --> 1:31:25.040 Trump's supporters. 1:31:25.160 --> 1:31:25.400 Yeah. 1:31:25.520 --> 1:31:25.760 Yeah. 1:31:25.800 --> 1:31:27.439 And the thing is that they're always going to be 1:31:27.479 --> 1:31:30.040 all types of people in any protests, And I wish 1:31:30.080 --> 1:31:32.880 why people realize that. Yeah, you know, people tend to 1:31:32.920 --> 1:31:34.720 take like one or two figures or one of two 1:31:34.720 --> 1:31:37.880 pictures in any particular protest and see, oh look they 1:31:37.880 --> 1:31:39.880 are doing this. That means the entire protests like this. 1:31:40.000 --> 1:31:43.439 It's like no. Protests tend to I think, invite a 1:31:43.520 --> 1:31:48.000 variety of positions, perspectives, actors into the free. 1:31:48.400 --> 1:31:48.759 Yeah. 1:31:49.080 --> 1:31:51.640 By their nature, they're large gatherings of people, right, Like, 1:31:52.080 --> 1:31:54.639 they're not going to be a monolith. People will always 1:31:54.720 --> 1:31:57.400 seek to either represent protests in one way or represent 1:31:57.439 --> 1:32:00.080 themselves as controlling a protest when they have not done so. 1:32:00.200 --> 1:32:03.320 But for the most part, they're very heterogeneous. 1:32:03.080 --> 1:32:08.120 Yeah, the monolithizing of protests, including in this case with Iran. 1:32:08.520 --> 1:32:12.000 I think it's a very clear example of how useful 1:32:12.040 --> 1:32:15.479 that is for every side of a conflict. Yes, because 1:32:15.920 --> 1:32:17.759 you know, the protests can be treated as a monolith 1:32:17.840 --> 1:32:21.320 by communee and by the Iranian government, you know, to 1:32:21.360 --> 1:32:23.640 say there and say these are enemies from within, you know, 1:32:23.680 --> 1:32:27.000 these are these are Zionists backed and the thing. And 1:32:27.040 --> 1:32:30.360 then of course the Israelis could also try and stake 1:32:30.400 --> 1:32:32.360 a claim on this and say, yeah, this is all people. 1:32:32.880 --> 1:32:35.640 And you know, I'm sure they're probably MASAD agents on 1:32:35.680 --> 1:32:39.320 the ground, as they are in most protest situations, not 1:32:39.320 --> 1:32:43.919 necessarily massadity agents, but intelligence service agents in general, from 1:32:44.200 --> 1:32:45.320 agencies around the world. 1:32:45.600 --> 1:32:45.840 Sure. 1:32:45.920 --> 1:32:48.479 Yeah, but you know, you could always pick and choose 1:32:48.479 --> 1:32:52.280 and create your own framen based on which aspects of 1:32:52.320 --> 1:32:54.599 the truth you want to focus on. But that's why 1:32:54.640 --> 1:32:58.400 I think our solidarity has streaming in with people and 1:32:58.600 --> 1:33:00.240 not with states. 1:33:00.680 --> 1:33:03.080 Yes, yeah, it seems to be a fundamental issue affecting 1:33:03.960 --> 1:33:06.360 much of the Internet left in the United States, so 1:33:06.920 --> 1:33:09.519 their solidarity appeased to only be to states and not 1:33:09.600 --> 1:33:12.280 to people. Right. We see that in Iran or Venezuela, 1:33:12.439 --> 1:33:16.479 or Russia or any anywhere else really like this sort 1:33:16.479 --> 1:33:20.800 of internet tanky leftism likes to talk about. 1:33:21.040 --> 1:33:33.320 Yeah, so we. 1:33:33.280 --> 1:33:36.800 Saw that kind of upswing of nationalistic further following those 1:33:36.880 --> 1:33:42.639 US sanctions, and the political situation in Panama was deteriorating rapidly. 1:33:43.400 --> 1:33:46.120 No Dieger annulled the results of the May nineteen Ellion 1:33:46.160 --> 1:33:51.000 ninety elections after his chosen candidates were decisively defeated. Protests 1:33:51.080 --> 1:33:54.519 followed the Panamine and defense forces crushed them, and the 1:33:54.560 --> 1:33:58.440 images of his opposition figures being beaten by his military 1:33:58.920 --> 1:34:02.839 saturated US to the visions to reinforce the racialized image 1:34:02.920 --> 1:34:06.760 of the savage Panamania because many of the soldiers that 1:34:07.160 --> 1:34:10.320 were doing the beating were black and brown, and the 1:34:10.360 --> 1:34:13.439 opposition figure in question was white, So they were able 1:34:13.479 --> 1:34:15.960 to clip that and you know, create a whole narrative 1:34:16.000 --> 1:34:20.320 around it that served their interests. Now, in October nineteen 1:34:20.320 --> 1:34:23.800 eighty nine, a coup attempt by Panamanian officers failed and 1:34:23.840 --> 1:34:28.000 the officers were executed in the US. Meanwhile, criticism of 1:34:28.120 --> 1:34:32.240 President George H. W. Bush had intensified, with editorials and 1:34:32.360 --> 1:34:36.320 senators accusing him of weakness for his failure to act 1:34:36.360 --> 1:34:41.000 decisively against Noriaca, and oh boy, call a man. We 1:34:41.600 --> 1:34:45.280 to go on and improve his prove his manhood, you know. 1:34:45.360 --> 1:34:49.240 So further motivation for what came next was Noriacer's nomination 1:34:49.600 --> 1:34:53.720 of Thomas Duquet as the first Panamian administrator of the 1:34:53.760 --> 1:34:58.320 Panama Canal Commission. Bush did not like that pick, and 1:34:58.479 --> 1:35:01.719 if the US invaded, then they could pick who they preferred, 1:35:02.160 --> 1:35:05.720 So there was another motivation. The invasion was also motivated 1:35:05.760 --> 1:35:09.719 by a desire to showcase the Pentagon's post Cold War mission. 1:35:10.240 --> 1:35:12.320 You know, the Cold War was weiganing at that point, 1:35:12.600 --> 1:35:15.280 particularly with the fall of the Berlin Wall mayor months before, 1:35:15.640 --> 1:35:19.200 and so a new threat, a new boogeyman was needed 1:35:19.240 --> 1:35:22.800 to justify US military action in Latin America, this time 1:35:22.840 --> 1:35:25.960 in the form of the drug war story. And then 1:35:26.200 --> 1:35:30.000 on December sixteenth, a U. S. Marine Intelligence udit ran 1:35:30.080 --> 1:35:34.960 a roadblock near Pameian military headquarters. Parmanian soldiers opened fire, 1:35:35.280 --> 1:35:39.160 killing Lieutenant Robert Pass. Another U. S. Soldier and his 1:35:39.200 --> 1:35:42.640 wife were detained, and while the soldier was beaten, the 1:35:42.720 --> 1:35:46.959 wife was threatened with the rape. Within twenty four hours, 1:35:47.040 --> 1:35:50.960 Bush ordered a full scale invasion on December twenty or 1:35:51.000 --> 1:35:54.479 nineteen eighty nine, the United States launched its twentieth military 1:35:54.479 --> 1:35:58.080 intervention in Panama since eighteen fifty six, and by far 1:35:58.479 --> 1:36:02.360 the most violent. It was the worst destruction Panama had 1:36:02.400 --> 1:36:06.800 seen since Columbia's Thousand Days War. Eighteen thousand people lost 1:36:06.840 --> 1:36:09.960 their homes. At least five hundred and sixteen Panamanians were 1:36:10.040 --> 1:36:15.000 killed by official Pentagon counts until Army estimates, however, but 1:36:15.160 --> 1:36:20.040 civilian deaths closer to one thousand jeez, and many believed 1:36:20.040 --> 1:36:24.520 that the true number was even higher. Entire neighborhoods were destroyed. 1:36:25.040 --> 1:36:28.559 El Toro Rillo, a poor, mostly black and Mestizo community 1:36:28.600 --> 1:36:31.960 built originally for canal workers, was bombed and burned to 1:36:32.000 --> 1:36:36.559 the ground. San Miguelitos also hit and across the country. 1:36:36.640 --> 1:36:41.400 Thousands were detained in prison camps. Damage exceeded one billion 1:36:41.479 --> 1:36:45.240 dollars on top of losses for nearly two years of samshuns. 1:36:45.960 --> 1:36:50.640 The US used overwhelming force, including stealth bombers, the bonnassaults, 1:36:50.920 --> 1:36:55.040 and heavy firepower in densely populated areas, against a Panamanian 1:36:55.160 --> 1:36:59.800 force of only about three thousand trained soldiers. Noriego was 1:37:00.120 --> 1:37:04.640 jared flew into the United States, tried and imprisoned, and 1:37:04.720 --> 1:37:07.960 as Lindsay Poland writes, quote, the names of the twenty 1:37:08.000 --> 1:37:11.759 five US soldiers killed during the invasion ruled across TV 1:37:11.840 --> 1:37:16.040 screens around the world. He had a register of Panamanians 1:37:16.160 --> 1:37:20.000 killed during the invasion has never been published even in 1:37:20.080 --> 1:37:22.000 Latin America. End quote. 1:37:22.600 --> 1:37:26.599 Jeez, when no Diega like sought refuge in the Vatican 1:37:26.600 --> 1:37:29.519 embassy for a while, I understand that they played like 1:37:29.600 --> 1:37:33.600 You Two music NonStop to force him to capitulate the 1:37:33.720 --> 1:37:39.800 PID what Yeah, yeah, yeah, they used YouTube and from 1:37:39.800 --> 1:37:40.599 other stuff too, But. 1:37:42.439 --> 1:37:44.639 I'm pretty sure my age here that just before my time, 1:37:44.720 --> 1:37:48.120 this was the band that was forced onto all the 1:37:48.200 --> 1:37:49.679 iPods and stuff, right. 1:37:49.720 --> 1:37:53.040 Yes, that's right, yeah, yeah, this was yeah, and prepped 1:37:53.040 --> 1:37:57.519 a parallel operation. Maybe again they would maybe that was 1:37:57.560 --> 1:38:01.320 a CIA of Yeah Bonner, the guy who talked to 1:38:01.320 --> 1:38:03.040 me a game and then never pays his taxes in 1:38:03.040 --> 1:38:05.880 Ireland also part of the invasion of Panama. 1:38:06.479 --> 1:38:08.639 He had a critical role in US intervention. 1:38:09.520 --> 1:38:11.280 Yeah wait until I find it. I bet there was 1:38:11.320 --> 1:38:13.439 some band I like as well, but You Two is 1:38:13.479 --> 1:38:14.679 the one that sticks in my mind. 1:38:15.160 --> 1:38:21.479 The humanity if there has to be a walker. Yeah, 1:38:21.560 --> 1:38:25.479 so in all seriousness. Though Noriego was not a good 1:38:25.520 --> 1:38:28.160 guy by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't 1:38:28.160 --> 1:38:32.559 know why people feel this, this compulsion to try and 1:38:32.800 --> 1:38:38.000 rehability figures that have been targeted by US imperial suggression. 1:38:38.800 --> 1:38:41.479 You know, you can condemn US superior suggression without carrying 1:38:41.520 --> 1:38:47.920 water for their image, right. Yeah, Now, Noriego was not 1:38:47.960 --> 1:38:51.000 a good guy, but he was not unusual. I think, 1:38:51.040 --> 1:38:53.680 if anything, you can point out the hypocrisy of the 1:38:53.760 --> 1:38:59.479 United States in this you know, selective outreach. Yeah, because 1:38:59.479 --> 1:39:03.000 at the very same moment, our wills atrocities were being 1:39:03.040 --> 1:39:07.040 inflicted by leaders across the region, carried out by regimes 1:39:07.200 --> 1:39:12.519 firmly integrated in Washington's could races. In Guatemala, for example, 1:39:12.920 --> 1:39:17.719 security forces kidnapped, tortured, and raped Diana Ortiz, an American 1:39:17.840 --> 1:39:21.400 nune before she managed to escape. But there's no evidence 1:39:21.439 --> 1:39:25.280 that this triggered outrage in Washington or cares for military intervention. 1:39:26.040 --> 1:39:29.760 And then in El Salvador, Gorilla forces launched an offensive 1:39:29.840 --> 1:39:33.760 on San Salvador, and the army responded by murdering six 1:39:33.880 --> 1:39:37.599 Jesuit priests. The same forces went on to arrest, torture, 1:39:37.680 --> 1:39:41.240 and intimidate international aid workers and church prisnel, but none 1:39:41.280 --> 1:39:44.040 of this was treated as grounds for invasion. Regime she 1:39:44.240 --> 1:39:48.640 enjoy emergency action. The US only removed Noriega because he 1:39:48.760 --> 1:39:53.040 wasn't convenient to their ends anymore, and the aftermath of 1:39:53.080 --> 1:39:58.760 that invasion was utter devastation. Panama was left without a 1:39:58.840 --> 1:40:01.599 function government until the US military stepped in to fill 1:40:01.640 --> 1:40:05.679 the vacuum after two or three days. American forces formerly 1:40:05.680 --> 1:40:08.519 took over the administration of the country under the Pentagon 1:40:08.640 --> 1:40:13.240 Plan called Operation Blind Logic. U S officers were a 1:40:13.320 --> 1:40:17.040 signed to supervise twenty two Panamian ministries and state agencies 1:40:17.360 --> 1:40:21.040 effectively run in the country for months. At the same time, 1:40:21.360 --> 1:40:25.280 the military crippled what remained of Parama's civilian administration by 1:40:25.320 --> 1:40:31.400 season roughly fifteen thousand boxes of government documents. The invasion 1:40:31.520 --> 1:40:36.639 permanently resheeted Panama's political reality, dividing it between those absorbed 1:40:36.680 --> 1:40:40.640 into Noriega's nationalist rhetoric and those who had welcomed foreign intervenure. 1:40:41.240 --> 1:40:43.639 It also sent a clear message to every political actor 1:40:44.000 --> 1:40:50.559 that Panama's sovereignty was conditional on their cooperation with the US. Meanwhile, 1:40:50.560 --> 1:40:53.320 in the US, there was baillium murmur against the government's 1:40:53.320 --> 1:40:57.440 claimed right to invade Panama, removed its government, dismantle its military, 1:40:57.720 --> 1:41:01.480 and infect costs on Panama's poor, black and Mestizo communities. 1:41:02.120 --> 1:41:05.120 The US kind of moved on from Panama after the vision. 1:41:05.600 --> 1:41:09.320 I mean, they continued to meddle, intervene, but they've basically 1:41:09.320 --> 1:41:11.400 gotten what they wanted at that point, which was the 1:41:11.439 --> 1:41:14.000 removal of someone who was not going to cooperate with 1:41:14.000 --> 1:41:17.479 them anymore. Unless you believe that they disrupted the drug 1:41:17.560 --> 1:41:21.360 trade with the arrest of Doriego, Panama continued to function 1:41:21.439 --> 1:41:24.120 as a transit point for cocaine and a center for 1:41:24.200 --> 1:41:38.559 money laundering at basically the same scale as before. So finally, 1:41:39.040 --> 1:41:43.599 what exactly is the connection with Venezuela. If any James 1:41:43.600 --> 1:41:43.920 you want to. 1:41:43.920 --> 1:41:48.280 Go first, I mean, there's a very obvious parallel in 1:41:48.320 --> 1:41:50.200 that they have deposed a leader that you don't need 1:41:50.200 --> 1:41:52.560 to go carry water for the guy they'd deposed. You 1:41:52.600 --> 1:41:55.320 could say something is bad without like the person who 1:41:55.439 --> 1:41:58.559 happened to does not therefore become a perfect angel. Things 1:41:58.600 --> 1:42:03.120 cannot be binary, that's so. But like it is wild 1:42:03.320 --> 1:42:06.080 that we look to what happened in Panama and We're like, 1:42:06.560 --> 1:42:08.320 you know what we could do better than that. We 1:42:08.320 --> 1:42:10.240 don't even have to declare a war. We don't even 1:42:10.320 --> 1:42:13.600 have to do an invasion, right, we can just just 1:42:13.720 --> 1:42:14.519 kidnap a guy. 1:42:15.000 --> 1:42:17.400 I mean, they did do an invasion. They kind of 1:42:17.400 --> 1:42:19.320 bombed a bunch of people and stuff too. 1:42:19.600 --> 1:42:22.000 Yes they did. Yeah, they did an air Yeah they did, 1:42:22.040 --> 1:42:25.479 like an airborne invasion, I guess would be the way 1:42:25.720 --> 1:42:28.680 to describe it. Like and in a sense, right, like 1:42:28.800 --> 1:42:31.040 I'm happy that they didn't sort of go through the 1:42:31.080 --> 1:42:35.280 streets of Caracas with bombs and artillery and mortars. 1:42:35.360 --> 1:42:38.360 Yeah, the then do squashed earth yeah this time. 1:42:38.680 --> 1:42:40.680 But at the same time, like we have now, like 1:42:40.720 --> 1:42:43.479 I've literally have spoken to several people in Bends Wear 1:42:43.560 --> 1:42:45.720 in the last twenty four hours, right, and they are 1:42:45.760 --> 1:42:49.200 in that situation now of not knowing, right, like who 1:42:49.280 --> 1:42:52.519 is the relevant authority the US in this case. It 1:42:52.720 --> 1:42:55.559 doesn't seem to have replaced the regime. They've just in 1:42:55.680 --> 1:42:57.640 again a parallel to what we saw in Panama, just 1:42:57.720 --> 1:42:59.479 installed another person, right. 1:42:59.640 --> 1:43:02.360 Not even already install on the person, because I mean. 1:43:03.800 --> 1:43:05.800 Let it trickle down and see how it rides. 1:43:06.040 --> 1:43:07.799 Rodriguez was already in power. 1:43:08.040 --> 1:43:10.800 Yeah, like I guess maybe they looked to Rodriguez and 1:43:10.880 --> 1:43:13.320 were like, because she's previously worked with Like I guess 1:43:13.600 --> 1:43:16.200 the analogy would be the Chamber of Commerce maybe something 1:43:16.240 --> 1:43:19.960 like that, like Venezuelan business interests. Maybe they would just like, yeah, well, 1:43:20.120 --> 1:43:22.760 maybe we can force her to be compliant with what 1:43:22.800 --> 1:43:26.200 we want. Like the only shit getting liberated is the 1:43:26.240 --> 1:43:29.800 oil in Venezuela, right, and it's actually not very good oil. Yeah, 1:43:29.880 --> 1:43:32.120 the same happened in Panama. Right, the US didn't go 1:43:32.200 --> 1:43:35.200 to liberate people, that went to liberate the canal. It's 1:43:35.320 --> 1:43:40.200 so disappointing to see people still look at foreign policy 1:43:40.240 --> 1:43:42.840 and binary terms. And like you said before, I think 1:43:43.479 --> 1:43:45.719 one of the things that the Venezuelan people I'm speaking 1:43:45.760 --> 1:43:48.840 to express deep, deep frustration with is that when they 1:43:49.360 --> 1:43:52.800 take a risk right and go online and share their 1:43:52.840 --> 1:43:58.280 frustrations with both Chavismoon and with the United States invading 1:43:58.280 --> 1:44:01.280 their country, they are told by Western leftists that they 1:44:01.320 --> 1:44:06.880 must be either THA agents or pretend Venezuelans like Americans 1:44:07.120 --> 1:44:09.560 posing as Venezuelans. 1:44:08.760 --> 1:44:11.320 Yeah, or like Gusanos or whatever. 1:44:11.640 --> 1:44:15.360 Yeah, Like there is this, I mean the case of Venezuela. Raight, 1:44:15.360 --> 1:44:17.000 I have you thought it was great. You could have gone, 1:44:17.120 --> 1:44:20.600 you had two decades to go. I went when I 1:44:20.760 --> 1:44:23.400 was an undergraduate, right to see it, to study it, 1:44:23.439 --> 1:44:27.360 to understand it. It was formative in the way that 1:44:27.400 --> 1:44:30.439 my politics are now, which is politics. It doesn't see 1:44:30.479 --> 1:44:31.840 human liberation coming from the state. 1:44:32.320 --> 1:44:35.840 It's not to say that there's nothing positive happening in 1:44:35.960 --> 1:44:40.760 Venezuela in terms of experiments with you know, communal initiatives 1:44:40.840 --> 1:44:46.400 and you know, cooperative economic projects, despite the us anctions, 1:44:46.400 --> 1:44:49.160 despite what they are, endurant as we young people have 1:44:49.640 --> 1:44:52.559 you know, managed to innovate and manage to create you know, 1:44:52.640 --> 1:44:56.800 these kinds of projects where they can exercise their autonomy, 1:44:56.880 --> 1:45:01.080 exercise their voice and their self determination. 1:45:01.560 --> 1:45:02.440 Yeah. 1:45:02.640 --> 1:45:06.680 I think, of course that there's a level of i 1:45:06.720 --> 1:45:10.480 think co optation or attempts by the government of Venezuela 1:45:10.520 --> 1:45:13.960 to use those projects and to integrate those projects into 1:45:14.520 --> 1:45:20.000 their apparatus or to gain legitimacy to reals projects. Yeah, 1:45:20.360 --> 1:45:24.799 but that's always the situation on the ground is very complex, 1:45:24.840 --> 1:45:27.480 and people are going to have different perspectives and feelings 1:45:27.520 --> 1:45:32.759 on the levels of government's involvement in their communes and whatnot. 1:45:33.680 --> 1:45:38.360 I think the best outcome for Venezuelan's would have been, 1:45:39.240 --> 1:45:42.479 of course, primarily the lifting of US sanctions. Yeah, and 1:45:42.760 --> 1:45:48.519 you know, secondarily their own self directed liberation from the 1:45:48.600 --> 1:45:52.760 imposition of the government on their projects. But you know, 1:45:52.800 --> 1:45:55.439 there are those who have those projects who support the 1:45:55.479 --> 1:45:58.599 government's involvement, who get received funding and that kind of thing. 1:45:58.760 --> 1:46:01.559 So it's like, like you say, right, that these things 1:46:01.600 --> 1:46:05.479 aren't binaries. It's not like always good, always bad. But 1:46:05.760 --> 1:46:08.559 as you said, right, like our slodargy should be with 1:46:08.560 --> 1:46:11.639 the Venezuelan people. They should be the ones who get 1:46:11.680 --> 1:46:13.440 to decide who rules Venezuela. 1:46:13.560 --> 1:46:15.920 Yeah, I mean, even if I disagree with that, Yeah, 1:46:16.120 --> 1:46:18.000 I still think ours be up to them. 1:46:18.280 --> 1:46:20.040 We should want a world in which should get they 1:46:20.040 --> 1:46:22.000 can choose, even if they don't choose what we want. 1:46:22.080 --> 1:46:25.360 Otherwise it's just another kind of colonial project, right, and 1:46:25.400 --> 1:46:30.280 I think that colonial impulse. And let's also be honest, 1:46:30.320 --> 1:46:33.120 there is a racialized component to the way that the 1:46:33.200 --> 1:46:36.400 American left talks to people in the global South, right, 1:46:36.800 --> 1:46:38.960 and I think we should not overlook that that they 1:46:38.960 --> 1:46:40.920 think that people aren't capable of either they don't know 1:46:40.920 --> 1:46:42.599 what's best for them and they need to be told 1:46:42.640 --> 1:46:46.600 by someone else. Or that they're not capable of understanding. 1:46:46.640 --> 1:46:50.720 Like people in Venezuela are extremely aware for the consequences 1:46:50.760 --> 1:46:53.559 of US intervention. I lived with people who were tortured 1:46:53.600 --> 1:46:57.719 in Chile. When I lived in Venezuela, many people came 1:46:58.000 --> 1:47:01.840 from fleeting Pinochet to Venezuela. It was a place that 1:47:01.880 --> 1:47:05.439 previously accepted migrants. Before migrants I ended up leaving in 1:47:05.520 --> 1:47:08.759 large numbers as they have now. People are extremely aware 1:47:08.840 --> 1:47:11.320 of what US intervention means. You know, they're much better 1:47:11.439 --> 1:47:16.880 educated than most Americans on affairs in South and Central America. Yeah, 1:47:17.000 --> 1:47:20.320 they know the game that is being played here, and 1:47:20.640 --> 1:47:22.920 I would just like to see people afford them the 1:47:23.000 --> 1:47:26.519 same humanity that they afford people in this country. Shouldn't 1:47:26.520 --> 1:47:28.680 be that difficult, but it genuinely seems to be. 1:47:29.000 --> 1:47:32.479 Yeah, I think too, there's an element where you know 1:47:33.120 --> 1:47:38.240 them with their knowledge, we make calculations, We make decisions 1:47:38.320 --> 1:47:42.880 that you with that same knowledge wouldn't make. You know, 1:47:43.000 --> 1:47:46.400 because there's internal disagreement too the people who have the 1:47:46.439 --> 1:47:50.240 same knowledge, and they come to different conclusions about that, 1:47:50.400 --> 1:47:53.160 about the best course of action, about the best trade 1:47:53.200 --> 1:47:56.480 offs that they should be making, about how they navigate 1:47:56.640 --> 1:48:00.160 the conditions they've been placed in. Yeah, and I think 1:48:00.200 --> 1:48:03.840 there's room for those conversations we had without you know, 1:48:04.080 --> 1:48:09.439 erasing that ipe. We see your perspectives and favor of 1:48:09.479 --> 1:48:11.680 that simple binary that keep coming back to. 1:48:12.439 --> 1:48:16.599 Yeah, definitely, like there's no need for their condescension if 1:48:16.600 --> 1:48:20.080 we can give criticisms from a place of solidarity. One 1:48:20.120 --> 1:48:22.200 of the things that I learned when I was in 1:48:22.280 --> 1:48:25.320 ra Java, like, not everything that happens there is something 1:48:25.320 --> 1:48:27.960 that I think is perfect or good, right, And there 1:48:27.960 --> 1:48:31.040 are a lot of people there, including internationalists, right, Like 1:48:31.080 --> 1:48:34.280 there's an anarchist group Techoschin Analysis, who are an anarchist 1:48:34.560 --> 1:48:37.080 group within the revolution, and like the revolution itself is 1:48:37.120 --> 1:48:41.880 not purely anarchist, right that they exist to give criticism 1:48:42.280 --> 1:48:45.040 from a place of solidarity, and both groups wanting the 1:48:45.040 --> 1:48:47.880 other group to get better, right to have what they 1:48:47.920 --> 1:48:51.960 want to succeed, which is how our relations with these 1:48:52.000 --> 1:48:55.080 other Like I guess liberation struggles in Venezuela would be 1:48:55.080 --> 1:48:57.920 a reasonable term to use, right, Like, our relationships with 1:48:57.960 --> 1:49:01.040 them should be that like we care about you, We 1:49:01.160 --> 1:49:04.879 hopefully both care about these things right about human liberation, 1:49:05.360 --> 1:49:08.240 about people being able to live with dignity and respect, 1:49:08.439 --> 1:49:12.400 and we could disagree, but we're ultimately disagreeing from a 1:49:12.400 --> 1:49:16.840 place of solidarity and support, not of condescension, which is 1:49:16.840 --> 1:49:18.679 what I see far too much. I think when I'm 1:49:19.280 --> 1:49:20.480 on the internet. 1:49:20.840 --> 1:49:27.080 Exactly exactly, so you know, Noriego and when we're all 1:49:27.960 --> 1:49:31.439 are not interchangeable. Parama nineteen eighty nine is not to 1:49:31.520 --> 1:49:36.200 Venezuela and twenty twenty six. The political systems, reachional dynamics, 1:49:36.240 --> 1:49:40.120 and global context are different, but the stories tooled to 1:49:40.200 --> 1:49:44.679 justify US and a venture ah pretty familiar. In Panama, 1:49:44.720 --> 1:49:47.839 the inviasion was framed as a moral necessity to stop drugs, 1:49:47.840 --> 1:49:51.479 restore democracy, and defend American lives. And this is in 1:49:51.520 --> 1:49:54.000 spite of the fact that US collaborated with that very 1:49:54.080 --> 1:49:59.000 same regime for years beforehanded Interestingly, in Venezuela's case, the 1:49:59.120 --> 1:50:04.800 justifications we also pretty similar. At first, stopping drugs, restoring democracy, 1:50:04.880 --> 1:50:09.120 defending American lives, and just like with Panama, they faced sanctions, 1:50:09.160 --> 1:50:13.880 diplomatic isolation, and economic pressure. But after the invasion of Venezuela, 1:50:14.080 --> 1:50:18.320 Trump just dropped the pretense entirely, just came out and 1:50:18.360 --> 1:50:22.960 said it, Yeah, we want their oil. So what what 1:50:23.040 --> 1:50:25.720 is the international community going to do? About it. The 1:50:25.800 --> 1:50:29.240 laws do not apply to us. In fact, we are 1:50:29.240 --> 1:50:33.560 going to withdraw from all of those international agreements that 1:50:34.160 --> 1:50:36.320 you know, threaten not interest. You could look this up 1:50:36.360 --> 1:50:39.840 that the US literally put this into. 1:50:40.080 --> 1:50:42.880 What was it, It's an executive order, right, leg as 1:50:42.920 --> 1:50:46.760 executive order, right, Yeah, they withdrawing from all of these 1:50:46.840 --> 1:50:50.040 international agreements that don't align with what they want. 1:50:50.640 --> 1:50:52.360 And so in both the case of Panama and the 1:50:52.360 --> 1:50:57.200 case of Venezuela, American interests supersede all else. American laws 1:50:57.240 --> 1:51:01.160 somehow apply to the entire world, while the world's laws 1:51:01.600 --> 1:51:05.040 never apply to America, and the actual people on the 1:51:05.080 --> 1:51:08.800 ground in both cases don't matter at all. And also 1:51:08.800 --> 1:51:12.320 another parallel, the domestic American narrative of racialized fail and 1:51:12.400 --> 1:51:16.720 drug war hysteria can be found in both invasions. And 1:51:16.760 --> 1:51:19.600 just like Panama left the media consciousness after the invasion 1:51:19.880 --> 1:51:23.520 as though the problems were solved, I wouldn't be surprised 1:51:23.520 --> 1:51:26.200 if we see a similar situation play out after they 1:51:26.200 --> 1:51:29.880 get what they want out of Venezuela. Suddenly all the 1:51:29.920 --> 1:51:32.559 issues of Venezuela have would no longer be in the 1:51:32.560 --> 1:51:37.200 picture because America got what they wanted. Courses development story 1:51:37.640 --> 1:51:40.360 so it remains to be seen. That's all I have 1:51:40.439 --> 1:51:45.200 for today. History does not repeat, but it's good to 1:51:45.360 --> 1:51:49.120 know because I find it often rhymes or power to 1:51:49.120 --> 1:51:49.679 all the people. 1:51:50.439 --> 1:51:50.759 Peace. 1:52:03.800 --> 1:52:06.200 Hey everyone, Robert here. The episode you're about to listen 1:52:06.280 --> 1:52:10.600 to is a keynote speech I gave at a symposium 1:52:10.640 --> 1:52:15.240 on combating Authoritarianism and Preserving Democracy for the Japanese American 1:52:15.320 --> 1:52:19.200 National Museum in Los Angeles, California. So you'll get to 1:52:19.200 --> 1:52:22.920 hear the speech that I gave them about what's necessary 1:52:23.120 --> 1:52:25.880 in order to deal with this new authoritarian way of 1:52:25.920 --> 1:52:28.240 overtaking the country. And then there's a Q and A 1:52:28.360 --> 1:52:31.439 with me afterwards, where I sit down with Anne Burrows, 1:52:31.439 --> 1:52:35.080 who's the President and CEO of the Japanese American National Museum. 1:52:35.560 --> 1:52:39.439 She's also an internationally recognized leader in human rights and 1:52:39.479 --> 1:52:42.360 social justice. She's a chair on the board of directors 1:52:42.360 --> 1:52:45.639 for Amnesty International. She was jailed as a political prisoner 1:52:45.680 --> 1:52:48.439 for fighting apartheid in her native South Africa. She's a 1:52:48.439 --> 1:52:51.280 pretty cool person. So that is the episode you're about 1:52:51.280 --> 1:52:51.680 to listen to. 1:52:56.560 --> 1:53:03.519 All next keynote is getting to ask us some difficult truths. Authoritarianism, 1:53:04.080 --> 1:53:08.880 as has so often been said rarely announces itself all 1:53:08.920 --> 1:53:14.479 at once. It takes root quietly in policies that silence dissent, 1:53:14.960 --> 1:53:19.600 in narratives that divide, and in systems that normalize repression 1:53:20.240 --> 1:53:23.840 until it feels ordinary. And when we get to that 1:53:24.000 --> 1:53:32.080 ordinary point, it's complicity. So I know that our next 1:53:32.840 --> 1:53:38.160 keynote is going to challenge us. We can trust that 1:53:38.240 --> 1:53:43.479 he will be provocative. We can trust that he will 1:53:43.520 --> 1:53:50.360 say some very strong things and it will be fantastic. So, 1:53:50.760 --> 1:53:56.679 without blabbering anymore, I am going to welcome Robert Evans, 1:53:56.760 --> 1:54:00.840 who is a journalist and author and the host of 1:54:00.920 --> 1:54:05.960 the enormously popular and influential podcasts Behind the Bastards and 1:54:06.000 --> 1:54:09.600 It Couldn't happen here. He's also the author of A 1:54:09.640 --> 1:54:13.439 Brief History of Vice and After the Revolution. He has 1:54:13.520 --> 1:54:18.800 that rare ability to connect history, power and lived experience, 1:54:18.880 --> 1:54:21.960 and he will certainly talk to you about his lived 1:54:22.040 --> 1:54:25.240 experience in the trenches of Portland, and he'll do it 1:54:25.240 --> 1:54:28.320 in a way that's unsettling. As I've said, he's going 1:54:28.360 --> 1:54:31.559 to challenge us, He's going to be provocative. But that's 1:54:31.600 --> 1:54:35.800 why we've asked him to provide this keynote. So Robert 1:54:36.080 --> 1:54:38.400 please come on up, it's your moment. 1:54:44.600 --> 1:54:46.560 Thank you so much for that, and thank you all 1:54:46.640 --> 1:54:49.360 for being here. I'm going to try to follow that 1:54:49.440 --> 1:54:52.360 up as best I can once the telepromter's ready here. 1:54:55.320 --> 1:54:57.360 So a couple of days before I sat down to 1:54:57.400 --> 1:55:00.400 write the speech that I'm delivering now, a friend came 1:55:00.440 --> 1:55:02.520 to me and asked if I had advice on which 1:55:02.600 --> 1:55:04.800 kind of gas mask she should purchase for her four 1:55:04.880 --> 1:55:09.320 year old daughter. As was noted earlier, we live in Portland, Oregon, 1:55:09.400 --> 1:55:12.360 and while my friend wasn't planning to attend any protests, 1:55:12.400 --> 1:55:15.600 certainly not with her daughter in tow, she was keeping 1:55:15.680 --> 1:55:19.760 up with developments in Minnesota, where ice officers had just 1:55:19.760 --> 1:55:22.600 shot a man they described as Venezuelan in the leg 1:55:22.760 --> 1:55:25.800 and then tear gassed a neighborhood. One resident tried to 1:55:25.800 --> 1:55:28.839 get his family, which included small children and a newborn, 1:55:28.920 --> 1:55:31.720 out of the area, but they were gassed in their car, 1:55:31.960 --> 1:55:35.320 and then for good measure, ice officers hurled flash bangs 1:55:35.400 --> 1:55:38.800 into the vehicle. His six month old infants stopped breeding, 1:55:38.960 --> 1:55:41.560 and he had to beg repeatedly before officers would let 1:55:41.560 --> 1:55:46.360 an ambulance in to resuscitate his baby. The child was fine, now, 1:55:47.040 --> 1:55:49.280 so my friend was right to fear that her little 1:55:49.280 --> 1:55:51.760 girl might get gassed for nothing more than existing in 1:55:51.800 --> 1:55:56.240 the wrong neighborhood. Questions like this aren't theoretical to thousands 1:55:56.240 --> 1:55:59.600 of American parents right now, and they aren't theoretical to me. 1:56:00.080 --> 1:56:02.040 I was tear gassed more than one hundred times in 1:56:02.080 --> 1:56:04.240 twenty twenty, and I spent a fair amount of time 1:56:04.280 --> 1:56:07.160 pulling children and other civilians out of cars that had 1:56:07.200 --> 1:56:10.080 the bad luck to exist on the same city block 1:56:10.120 --> 1:56:12.280 as a man with a badge and a grenade launcher. 1:56:13.000 --> 1:56:15.640 And so it bugs me just a little when I 1:56:15.680 --> 1:56:19.120 see Governor Walls tell protesters to stay peaceful and not 1:56:19.240 --> 1:56:23.440 take the bait. In fact, I'm left asking what do 1:56:23.480 --> 1:56:27.240 we think the bait is here? As best as I 1:56:27.280 --> 1:56:31.120 can figure it, armed and armored police officers blind firing 1:56:31.200 --> 1:56:35.160 chemical weapons that civilians is bait, while any response from 1:56:35.160 --> 1:56:38.440 those civilians beyond packing up and going home is taking 1:56:38.560 --> 1:56:42.200 said bait. Throwing back tear gas containers or anything else 1:56:42.560 --> 1:56:46.200 is somehow an escalation. So is standing against a riot 1:56:46.240 --> 1:56:48.680 line with a gas mask and a homemade shield to 1:56:48.720 --> 1:56:52.600 stop your neighbor from getting deported. Any act of resistance 1:56:52.640 --> 1:56:56.520 big or small is all the justification federal agents need 1:56:56.560 --> 1:56:59.680 to deploy more of the violence they were already using. 1:57:00.320 --> 1:57:02.960 It's a neat little rhetorical game that liberals have let 1:57:02.960 --> 1:57:07.360 themselves become trapped inside. Playing that game lets them avoid 1:57:07.440 --> 1:57:12.240 answering one supremely ugly question. If your enemy controls the 1:57:12.240 --> 1:57:15.760 police and the military, and they've promised to destroy you, 1:57:16.400 --> 1:57:21.080 what does fighting back even mean? Up until the present moment, 1:57:21.280 --> 1:57:24.880 the answer given by prominent liberals has generally been you 1:57:24.960 --> 1:57:28.360 fight by voting, or by making your voice heard, or 1:57:28.360 --> 1:57:31.320 something similar. I have a good friend who tried to 1:57:31.360 --> 1:57:34.200 make her voice heard in twenty twenty. She is now 1:57:34.240 --> 1:57:37.600 an early menopause in her twenties after being rendered sterile 1:57:37.640 --> 1:57:40.960 by chronic tear gas exposure. None of the officers who 1:57:41.000 --> 1:57:43.840 poisoned her, or thousands of other Portlanders ever saw a 1:57:43.920 --> 1:57:44.960 day behind bars. 1:57:45.400 --> 1:57:46.200 That would be wrong. 1:57:46.680 --> 1:57:50.640 They enjoy qualified immunity. They're doing an important job one 1:57:50.720 --> 1:57:54.320 every person can agree needs to be done. The year 1:57:54.360 --> 1:57:58.120 my friend was gassed repeatedly, the highest paid Portland police 1:57:58.120 --> 1:58:00.600 officer was a man who had been caught and briefly 1:58:00.640 --> 1:58:03.240 punished for maintaining a shrine to the dead men of 1:58:03.280 --> 1:58:07.560 the waffen Ss on city property. The Portland Police Union, 1:58:07.640 --> 1:58:10.760 the first police union in the country, sued for him 1:58:10.800 --> 1:58:13.280 to be reinstated and to ensure that he faced no 1:58:13.360 --> 1:58:16.000 punishment for this, and was brought back with full pay 1:58:16.040 --> 1:58:20.320 and benefits. So when you hear stories of Homeland Security 1:58:20.400 --> 1:58:24.040 hiding Nazi songs and their recruiting ads for ICE, remember 1:58:24.440 --> 1:58:28.680 it's not just an ICE problem. And yet some liberals 1:58:28.720 --> 1:58:32.000 and progresses will tell me state and local police aren't 1:58:32.040 --> 1:58:35.800 the enemy. ICE is just an aberin agency, and surely 1:58:35.840 --> 1:58:39.080 there's some democratic cheat code we can use to get 1:58:39.080 --> 1:58:42.040 the good guys in blue to help us take them down. 1:58:43.160 --> 1:58:47.320 So much of the unchecked authoritarian nightmare currently rampaging through 1:58:47.360 --> 1:58:49.960 our streets is the product of a system that views 1:58:50.000 --> 1:58:55.400 policing as sacred, officers as infallible, and protest as inherently 1:58:55.440 --> 1:58:59.320 suspicious and dangerous. This is the standard line, even within 1:58:59.360 --> 1:59:01.560 the halls of power or in the Democratic Party, and 1:59:01.600 --> 1:59:04.120 it is part of why regular young people in this 1:59:04.280 --> 1:59:12.720 country hate elected democrats. The people out, thank you, the 1:59:12.800 --> 1:59:16.680 people out in Minneapolis battling riot lines and sub zero weather. No, 1:59:17.040 --> 1:59:20.920 there's no help coming. The cavalry does not exist, and 1:59:21.000 --> 1:59:23.680 so They've had to build their own architecture of resistance 1:59:23.760 --> 1:59:26.720 off and on the fly, since immigrants and other people 1:59:26.760 --> 1:59:30.680 being targeted by ICE can't safely shop. Local businesses like 1:59:30.840 --> 1:59:34.000 Rectangle spelled like wreck is in a car Wreck Pizza 1:59:34.400 --> 1:59:36.720 have raised tens of thousands of dollars to buy and 1:59:36.760 --> 1:59:41.080 distribute food and other necessities. Gathering and handing out donated 1:59:41.120 --> 1:59:45.280 groceries feel safe, peaceful, and legal, but that's not how 1:59:45.320 --> 1:59:49.440 ICE treats it. Rectangle's fundraising campaign earned them a visit 1:59:49.480 --> 1:59:52.200 from armed ICE agents, who, for the account of co 1:59:52.280 --> 1:59:56.080 owner Brianna Evans no relation, stormed up on our door 1:59:56.160 --> 1:59:59.360 to try to get in. Thankfully, members of the neighborhood 1:59:59.360 --> 2:00:01.680 had been standing guard. They were able to raise a 2:00:01.720 --> 2:00:04.640 significant force of locals to swarm and chase off ICE, 2:00:04.920 --> 2:00:07.040 who tried to gas the neighborhood as they were leaving, 2:00:07.080 --> 2:00:10.200 only to have their munitions kicked back at them. This 2:00:10.240 --> 2:00:12.680 is one small example of the kind of networks of 2:00:12.760 --> 2:00:15.320 aid and resistance that are evolving on the ground right 2:00:15.360 --> 2:00:18.440 now as I speak. Another example that arose in the 2:00:18.440 --> 2:00:21.840 wake of renee Goods murder is ice Watch, an informally 2:00:22.000 --> 2:00:25.240 organized network that activates members of the community when ICE 2:00:25.280 --> 2:00:28.840 shows up in their area. The logic behind ICE watch 2:00:28.920 --> 2:00:31.280 is that these federal agents will be less likely to 2:00:31.360 --> 2:00:34.560 engage in extreme acts of violence while surrounded by crowds 2:00:34.560 --> 2:00:37.240 of citizens following them and trying to wear them down 2:00:37.280 --> 2:00:40.520 with shame. This is a good tactic, and we here 2:00:40.640 --> 2:00:44.000 might rightly consider it a non violent tactic. But the 2:00:44.040 --> 2:00:48.360 federal government does not remember Renee Good was shot and 2:00:48.440 --> 2:00:53.000 killed for participating in exactly this kind of activism. Through 2:00:53.040 --> 2:00:56.480 mouthpieces like Stephen Miller, the Trump administration has made their 2:00:56.520 --> 2:01:00.720 stance very clear. Anyone impeding the actions of lawelaw enforcement 2:01:00.840 --> 2:01:03.800 is a terrorist. Waving a sign or filming an ICE 2:01:03.840 --> 2:01:06.440 agent makes you just as much a terrorist as someone 2:01:06.440 --> 2:01:09.839 who breaks a window or throws a rock. You cannot 2:01:09.960 --> 2:01:13.640 be so well behaved and appropriate in your resistance that 2:01:13.680 --> 2:01:17.560 this government will not consider you a valid target. And 2:01:17.640 --> 2:01:21.000 yet again and again I see no spine or backbone 2:01:21.040 --> 2:01:23.400 from the men setting themselves up as the future of 2:01:23.560 --> 2:01:27.360 resistance to Trump. Gavin Newsom can't even stick to his 2:01:27.360 --> 2:01:29.880 own guns in his own podcast on whether or not 2:01:30.000 --> 2:01:34.560 ICE is terrorizing Americans. Senator Corey Booker's big recent suggestion 2:01:35.120 --> 2:01:38.120 was more training for ice agents, as if the men 2:01:38.160 --> 2:01:42.120 brutalizing our neighbors aren't doing exactly what they trained to do. 2:01:43.560 --> 2:01:47.040 About a year after Joe Biden's inauguration, I found myself 2:01:47.120 --> 2:01:49.480 up in the woods of rural Washington, an hour or 2:01:49.520 --> 2:01:52.640 so outside of Seattle, doing firearm training with a group 2:01:52.680 --> 2:01:55.240 of leftist side met during the twenty twenty protest. And 2:01:55.840 --> 2:01:57.560 I know that kind of thing makes a lot of 2:01:57.600 --> 2:02:01.440 people here uncomfortable, and a number of things about our 2:02:01.480 --> 2:02:05.000 shared future might make you uncomfortable. During a break in 2:02:05.040 --> 2:02:07.400 the activity, I sat down for a smoke with a 2:02:07.400 --> 2:02:09.760 guy who'd spent the last several years teaching himself to 2:02:09.800 --> 2:02:13.040 be an armor or someone who repairs and maintains firearms. 2:02:13.560 --> 2:02:15.760 As he'd gained skill with this, he'd started to take 2:02:15.760 --> 2:02:19.120 his grade school aged daughter out shooting. He didn't like that, 2:02:19.160 --> 2:02:20.920 he felt like he had to do this, but as 2:02:20.920 --> 2:02:23.560 he informed me, I don't know that she won't have 2:02:23.640 --> 2:02:25.440 to fight for her right to be treated like a 2:02:25.520 --> 2:02:28.840 human being. Hearing that, I thought back to a woman 2:02:28.880 --> 2:02:31.440 i'd met a few years earlier in the bad lands 2:02:31.440 --> 2:02:34.440 of rural Syria. She'd been held as a slave by 2:02:34.480 --> 2:02:37.240 ISIS militants for two years forced into the kind of 2:02:37.280 --> 2:02:40.000 life that I hope is unimaginable to anyone sitting in 2:02:40.040 --> 2:02:43.640 this room. One night, as the Kurdish dominated militias of 2:02:43.640 --> 2:02:47.400 the SDF advanced on Isa's positions, she managed to escape. 2:02:47.760 --> 2:02:50.040 After a harrowing journey on foot, she found her way 2:02:50.080 --> 2:02:53.080 to the sdf's lines, where the first person she saw 2:02:53.280 --> 2:02:55.560 was a fighter from an all female unit holding an 2:02:55.560 --> 2:02:58.800 AK forty seven. She made the decision to join up 2:02:58.840 --> 2:03:01.800 herself that very moment. She wanted training and a gun 2:03:01.800 --> 2:03:04.720 of her own, because then, she informed me, no man 2:03:04.760 --> 2:03:08.920 could ever own her again. Now, politics isn't supposed to 2:03:08.960 --> 2:03:11.640 work that way in the United States. People should not 2:03:11.880 --> 2:03:15.600 need to use weapons to defend their most basic civil rights. 2:03:15.920 --> 2:03:18.440 But can you look at the mobs of armed men 2:03:18.560 --> 2:03:22.080 breaking into homes and businesses in Minneapolis and elsewhere, many 2:03:22.160 --> 2:03:25.600 sporting Nazi tattoos to go along with their badges, and 2:03:25.720 --> 2:03:28.880 tell me definitively that we're going to get through this 2:03:29.000 --> 2:03:32.480 without a fight. At the end of the Second World War, 2:03:32.680 --> 2:03:35.000 as the dead were counted to cries of never again, 2:03:35.080 --> 2:03:38.160 an attempt was made to create a rules based international 2:03:38.280 --> 2:03:41.320 order built around the bones of the last failed attempt 2:03:41.360 --> 2:03:43.440 to do so at the end of the First World War, 2:03:44.120 --> 2:03:47.440 and as we stand here in twenty twenty six, potentially 2:03:47.480 --> 2:03:51.800 looking at a US invasion of Greenland, watching military helicopters 2:03:51.840 --> 2:03:55.160 circle American cities while secret police snatch victims from their 2:03:55.200 --> 2:03:58.720 families and haul them off to camps and defortation facilities, 2:03:59.080 --> 2:04:01.720 we must admit that this second attempt to create a 2:04:01.800 --> 2:04:06.120 rules based international order is failing as well. We and 2:04:06.200 --> 2:04:10.240 our predecessors failed at building and maintaining a system that 2:04:10.280 --> 2:04:13.600 would stop all of this from happening again. There are 2:04:13.600 --> 2:04:17.200 many answers to the question of how this happened. The 2:04:17.200 --> 2:04:19.920 fact that the United States from the jump refused to 2:04:19.920 --> 2:04:22.440 be bound by the same rules we hoped lesser nations 2:04:22.440 --> 2:04:25.480 would follow was certainly part of the reason why our 2:04:25.520 --> 2:04:29.200 insistence that no foreign court ever judge American politicians or 2:04:29.240 --> 2:04:33.240 American soldiers was as narcissistic as it was insane. The 2:04:33.280 --> 2:04:37.080 creation of the Department of Homeland Security, the ongoing militarization 2:04:37.160 --> 2:04:39.880 of the border and border patrol, the granting of qualified 2:04:39.880 --> 2:04:43.320 immunity the police across the country, these were all further 2:04:43.360 --> 2:04:47.200 steps on our national road to perdition citizens United. Our 2:04:47.200 --> 2:04:50.640 refusal to punish Facebook executives over the cabridge, Analytica Scannal, 2:04:50.680 --> 2:04:53.440 and our failure to charge the people responsible for January 2:04:53.440 --> 2:04:56.800 sixth with treason are all further steps on that road. 2:04:57.280 --> 2:04:59.839 I could talk about what led us hear for hours, 2:05:00.200 --> 2:05:03.879 but all that matters is this. We the United States 2:05:04.120 --> 2:05:07.920 are not special. Our long democratic traditions, great wealth, and 2:05:08.000 --> 2:05:11.520 high opinion of ourselves have not protected us. The enemy 2:05:11.760 --> 2:05:13.000 is that the gates. 2:05:23.720 --> 2:05:23.880 Now. 2:05:23.880 --> 2:05:25.920 I don't mean to act as if all is lost, 2:05:26.240 --> 2:05:29.200 or as if the only path forward is bloody, internesting war, 2:05:29.320 --> 2:05:32.200 because I don't believe that the cause of rationality, of 2:05:32.280 --> 2:05:35.520 basic human decency still has a lot going for it. 2:05:36.080 --> 2:05:39.240 The vast majority of Americans hate this president, just as 2:05:39.320 --> 2:05:42.680 they despise the Republican Party and the vicious, cruel and 2:05:42.720 --> 2:05:46.480 soulless monster. The Conservative project has proved to be. Poll 2:05:46.560 --> 2:05:49.680 after poll shows this. We also see it in videos 2:05:49.680 --> 2:05:52.839 of grandfathers kicking tear gas cans back at ICE agents 2:05:52.840 --> 2:05:57.480 in Minneapolis. The bad guys are outnumbered. We can't forget this, 2:05:57.960 --> 2:06:00.000 and they certainly won't. 2:05:59.600 --> 2:06:00.480 But the bad. 2:06:00.240 --> 2:06:03.240 Guys also have guns and the legal right to use 2:06:03.280 --> 2:06:05.440 them however they want, whenever they want. 2:06:05.640 --> 2:06:06.680 On whoever they want. 2:06:07.280 --> 2:06:09.880 Just because they might lose an election doesn't mean they're 2:06:09.880 --> 2:06:13.680 handing in their badges or their weapons. So how do 2:06:13.720 --> 2:06:16.480 you plan to make them? One thing that gives me 2:06:16.520 --> 2:06:18.560 a sense of hope as I look around the country 2:06:18.720 --> 2:06:21.600 is that increasing numbers of liberals and progressives seem to 2:06:21.600 --> 2:06:24.000 be waking up to the idea that this is an 2:06:24.040 --> 2:06:25.080 existential fight. 2:06:25.920 --> 2:06:27.520 Perhaps the most hopeful thing I've. 2:06:27.400 --> 2:06:30.680 Seen recently is that in Minneapolis, a coalition of labor 2:06:30.760 --> 2:06:33.920 unions and community organizations have come together to call for 2:06:34.000 --> 2:06:37.400 a limited general strike that just so happens to be today, 2:06:37.640 --> 2:06:39.880 January twenty third, twenty twenty six. 2:06:40.200 --> 2:06:44.760 That's right, for a single day. There will be no work, 2:06:45.000 --> 2:06:46.480 no school, no shopping. 2:06:46.560 --> 2:06:49.839 Now, this is a demonstrative act when you might compare 2:06:49.880 --> 2:06:52.880 to the flexing of a muscle. No one involved thinks 2:06:52.920 --> 2:06:55.320 that one day of striking is going to be enough, 2:06:55.720 --> 2:06:58.720 But nothing less than a general strike has the potential 2:06:58.760 --> 2:07:02.880 to force concessions, even capitulation, from the regime, and you 2:07:03.000 --> 2:07:06.400 have to start somewhere. This is another example of an active, 2:07:06.440 --> 2:07:10.200 peaceful protest that will be considered anything but peaceful as 2:07:10.240 --> 2:07:13.240 soon as the regime feels threatened and people on the 2:07:13.280 --> 2:07:16.800 ground in Minneapolis know this. Whenever I talk to activists, 2:07:16.840 --> 2:07:19.280 whether they live in Los Angeles and Portland at Land 2:07:19.360 --> 2:07:23.000 of Minneapolis, Philadelphia, I see the same thing I saw 2:07:23.040 --> 2:07:26.560 in people in twenty twenty, a grim but very accurate 2:07:26.600 --> 2:07:29.640 assessment of what this fight is going to cost them. 2:07:29.920 --> 2:07:32.280 They are going to lose eyes and maybe limbs to 2:07:32.360 --> 2:07:35.440 riot munitions. They and their friends will be arrested, beaten, 2:07:35.600 --> 2:07:39.640 possibly tortured, and imprisoned. All of these things are happening 2:07:39.840 --> 2:07:43.080 right now to regular people who have done nothing more 2:07:43.160 --> 2:07:45.440 than speak up in lend aid and comfort to their 2:07:45.480 --> 2:07:49.280 afflicted neighbors. They are willing to risk their lives because 2:07:49.280 --> 2:07:52.760 they know the hour is late. I have not seen 2:07:52.800 --> 2:07:56.360 anything that approaches this level of commitment from the liberal intelligencia, 2:07:56.400 --> 2:07:59.919 from most elected Democratic officials, or from the party itself. 2:08:00.280 --> 2:08:00.520 JB. 2:08:00.640 --> 2:08:04.520 Pritzker calls out accurately our present situation as being like 2:08:04.560 --> 2:08:07.640 the early years of the Third Reich, and yet, like 2:08:07.720 --> 2:08:11.240 every Democrat in power, he falls short of elucidating absolution 2:08:11.520 --> 2:08:15.360 beyond peaceful protest. And if I can get only one 2:08:15.400 --> 2:08:18.160 point across to you, let it be this, as far 2:08:18.200 --> 2:08:20.960 as the regime is concerned, there is no such thing. 2:08:21.440 --> 2:08:24.680 All dissent is violent. You attending the symposium as an 2:08:24.720 --> 2:08:26.800 act of terrorism, and they will punish you for it 2:08:26.800 --> 2:08:28.640 once they get through the people they see as more 2:08:28.680 --> 2:08:32.760 immediate threats. There's a book I come back to again 2:08:32.800 --> 2:08:35.320 and again when trying to puzzle out my own path 2:08:35.400 --> 2:08:39.360 forward in these unsettling times. It's titled They Thought They 2:08:39.400 --> 2:08:42.600 Were Free, and the author was a Jewish American progressive 2:08:42.680 --> 2:08:46.720 journalist and educator named Milton Meyer. Not long after World 2:08:46.760 --> 2:08:49.400 War Two, in the early nineteen fifties, he moved to 2:08:49.440 --> 2:08:52.080 a small German village to get and know and interview 2:08:52.120 --> 2:08:55.000 a number of ordinary citizens about their involvement with the 2:08:55.080 --> 2:08:59.000 Nazi Party. Meyer called these men and women the little 2:08:59.120 --> 2:09:02.800 Nazis to contrast them from the big Nazis like Himmler and. 2:09:02.800 --> 2:09:03.720 Heidrich and Gerring. 2:09:04.320 --> 2:09:06.879 These were not people who had been movers and shakers 2:09:06.920 --> 2:09:09.800 in the party, nor had most of them been particularly 2:09:09.880 --> 2:09:13.320 active or early members. They were regular people who had 2:09:13.360 --> 2:09:17.600 latched onto Nazism late, but supported it enthusiastically because of 2:09:17.600 --> 2:09:20.760 the benefits it gave them. They Thought they Were Free 2:09:20.960 --> 2:09:23.520 is a chilling read for a number of reasons. But 2:09:23.560 --> 2:09:26.320 there's no competition for the most frightening passage in the 2:09:26.320 --> 2:09:30.240 whole work. For Meyer didn't only interview little Nazis. He 2:09:30.320 --> 2:09:33.480 sat down with people we might call little anti fascists. 2:09:34.040 --> 2:09:37.040 These were Germans who never bought into Nazism. They hated 2:09:37.080 --> 2:09:39.280 it from the jump. They even fought it for a time, 2:09:39.640 --> 2:09:42.720 but they were never central organizers or members of the resistance. 2:09:42.800 --> 2:09:44.920 And when it became clear that the Third Reich had 2:09:44.960 --> 2:09:48.000 taken power, they faded into the woodwork to try and 2:09:48.040 --> 2:09:51.680 stay alive. Meyer sat down with one of these people, 2:09:51.800 --> 2:09:53.959 a friend of his who worked as a chemical engineer, 2:09:54.080 --> 2:09:57.320 and asked him, one day, tell me, now, how was 2:09:57.360 --> 2:10:01.760 the world lost. Here's how his re spont started. The 2:10:01.800 --> 2:10:04.600 world was lost one day in nineteen thirty five here 2:10:04.640 --> 2:10:07.120 in Germany. It was I who lost it. And I 2:10:07.160 --> 2:10:10.040 will tell you how. I was employed in a defense plant, 2:10:10.120 --> 2:10:12.320 a war plant, of course, but they were always called 2:10:12.320 --> 2:10:15.560 defense plants. That was the year of the National Defense Law, 2:10:15.680 --> 2:10:18.600 the law of total conscription. Under the law, I was 2:10:18.640 --> 2:10:21.280 required to take an oath of fidelity. I said I 2:10:21.320 --> 2:10:24.160 would not. I opposed it in conscience. I was given 2:10:24.160 --> 2:10:26.720 twenty four hours to think it over. In those twenty 2:10:26.720 --> 2:10:30.480 four hours, I lost the world now, This man, this 2:10:30.600 --> 2:10:33.800 friend of Myers, knew that refusing to give the oath 2:10:33.800 --> 2:10:36.360 wouldn't cost him his freedom, but it would cost him 2:10:36.360 --> 2:10:38.880 his job and make it impossible for him to get another. 2:10:39.400 --> 2:10:42.040 No one would hire a Bolshevik, and although he'd never 2:10:42.080 --> 2:10:45.520 been a Bolshevik, once the fascists take over, everyone who 2:10:45.560 --> 2:10:48.200 isn't a fascist becomes the worst thing they ever called 2:10:48.200 --> 2:10:50.520 their enemies. Today, I guess it would be far left 2:10:50.560 --> 2:10:55.440 extremists or antifa terrorists. Anyway, Meyer's friend explained that he 2:10:55.600 --> 2:10:58.320 thought he couldn't risk being tarred with that brush. Not 2:10:58.400 --> 2:11:00.560 because he wanted to escape with his fan and get 2:11:00.560 --> 2:11:03.120 a job elsewhere, but because he genuinely wanted to stay 2:11:03.120 --> 2:11:05.920 in Germany and fight the good fight. He had many 2:11:06.000 --> 2:11:08.920 German Jewish colleagues and other dissident friends he wanted to 2:11:08.920 --> 2:11:12.000 be able to help, and he calculated, quote if I 2:11:12.040 --> 2:11:14.320 took the oath and held my job, I might be 2:11:14.320 --> 2:11:17.280 of help somehow as things went on. If I refused 2:11:17.280 --> 2:11:19.600 to take the oath, I would certainly be useless to 2:11:19.640 --> 2:11:21.960 my friends. Even if I remained in the country, I 2:11:22.040 --> 2:11:25.520 myself would be in their situation. And so he decided 2:11:25.520 --> 2:11:27.760 to take the pledge, making a decision I think many 2:11:27.840 --> 2:11:30.160 of us would have made, telling himself simply that by 2:11:30.200 --> 2:11:33.080 saying the words I swear to God, he was ensuring 2:11:33.160 --> 2:11:36.480 no human being or government could override his conscience, and 2:11:36.560 --> 2:11:38.720 he was as good as his word. Through the war years, 2:11:38.840 --> 2:11:42.080 Meyer's friend helped save many lives, using his apartment as 2:11:42.120 --> 2:11:45.320 a safe house for people fleeing the Third Reich. That's 2:11:45.360 --> 2:11:48.560 incredibly admirable. I think we can all agree. But Meyer's 2:11:48.560 --> 2:11:51.600 friend felt nothing but shame for his actions. He said 2:11:51.680 --> 2:11:54.680 later of the day he took the oath. That day 2:11:54.920 --> 2:11:59.000 the world was lost, and it was I who lost it. Now, 2:11:59.000 --> 2:12:01.680 Meyer was confused by this, saying what I'd imagine most 2:12:01.680 --> 2:12:04.000 of us would say in his position, Well, by taking 2:12:04.000 --> 2:12:06.080 the oath, you were able to save many lives. You 2:12:06.120 --> 2:12:08.400 were just one man, and the Third Reich was already 2:12:08.440 --> 2:12:11.840 in power. What more could you have done? Here was 2:12:11.840 --> 2:12:15.440 his friend's response. Of course, I must explain. First of all, 2:12:15.520 --> 2:12:17.960 there is the problem of the lesser evil. Taking the 2:12:18.000 --> 2:12:20.040 oath was not so evil as being unable to help 2:12:20.040 --> 2:12:21.040 my friends later on. 2:12:20.960 --> 2:12:21.480 Would have been. 2:12:21.840 --> 2:12:24.680 But the evil of the oath was certain and immediate, 2:12:24.920 --> 2:12:26.800 and the helping of my friends, was in the future 2:12:26.840 --> 2:12:30.040 and therefore uncertain. I had to commit a positive evil 2:12:30.280 --> 2:12:32.760 there and then in the hope of a possible good 2:12:32.880 --> 2:12:35.680 later on. The good outweighed the evil, but the good 2:12:35.760 --> 2:12:38.160 was only a hope, the evil a fact. 2:12:39.000 --> 2:12:40.560 He went on to insist. 2:12:40.280 --> 2:12:42.600 That if he had refused to take the oath of fidelity, 2:12:42.880 --> 2:12:45.080 he could have saved the people later killed by the 2:12:45.160 --> 2:12:48.960 Nazi regime. And Meyer responded, logically, you don't truly believe 2:12:49.000 --> 2:12:51.840 that your lone refusal could have overthrown the Reich in 2:12:51.960 --> 2:12:55.040 nineteen thirty five, and his friend said, no, of course not, 2:12:55.680 --> 2:12:58.560 but then went on to elaborate, there I was in 2:12:58.640 --> 2:13:01.160 nineteen thirty five a p example if the kind of 2:13:01.200 --> 2:13:04.160 person who, with all his advantages in birth and education 2:13:04.280 --> 2:13:07.320 and imposition rules or might easily rule in any country. 2:13:07.640 --> 2:13:09.720 If I had refused to take the oath in nineteen 2:13:09.760 --> 2:13:12.520 thirty five, it would have meant that thousands and thousands 2:13:12.640 --> 2:13:15.040 like me all over Germany were refusing to take it. 2:13:15.320 --> 2:13:18.240 Their refusal would have heartened millions. Thus the regime would 2:13:18.240 --> 2:13:20.600 have been overthrown, or indeed would never have come to 2:13:20.680 --> 2:13:23.160 power in the first place. The fact that I was 2:13:23.200 --> 2:13:25.720 not prepared to resist in nineteen thirty five meant that 2:13:25.800 --> 2:13:28.600 all the thousands, hundreds of thousands like me in Germany 2:13:28.600 --> 2:13:32.200 were also unprepared. Each one of these hundreds of thousands 2:13:32.280 --> 2:13:34.520 was like me, a man of great influence or of 2:13:34.560 --> 2:13:39.600 great potential influence. Thus the world was lost. Now Meyer 2:13:39.640 --> 2:13:41.960 still doesn't believe his friend because he's bogged down in 2:13:42.000 --> 2:13:45.280 the historical details, the nitty gritty of the rise of fascism. 2:13:45.640 --> 2:13:48.840 His friend, who lived through that, is instead focused on 2:13:48.880 --> 2:13:52.360 the greater moral and historic truths behind it. These hundred 2:13:52.440 --> 2:13:55.440 lives I saved, he told Meyer, or a thousand or ten, 2:13:55.480 --> 2:13:58.080 as you will. What do they represent? A little something 2:13:58.120 --> 2:14:00.680 out of the whole terrible evil? And if my faith 2:14:00.720 --> 2:14:03.240 had been strong enough in nineteen thirty five, I could 2:14:03.280 --> 2:14:06.640 have prevented the whole evil. Now, the faith he's expressing 2:14:07.120 --> 2:14:09.840 isn't a religious belief per se, but rather faith that 2:14:09.960 --> 2:14:12.960 right and wrong exist, and that when people step into 2:14:12.960 --> 2:14:16.000 our communities hell bent on harming others, they should be 2:14:16.040 --> 2:14:19.800 stopped by any means necessary. So Meyer asks him, can 2:14:19.840 --> 2:14:22.600 you imagine anything your society might have done to sustain 2:14:22.720 --> 2:14:25.120 your faith, to ensure you and other Germans like you 2:14:25.160 --> 2:14:28.600 would have been prepared to resist. Meyer's friend realizes he's 2:14:28.600 --> 2:14:32.360 speaking about education, the very American idea that ideologies like 2:14:32.440 --> 2:14:35.360 fascism thrive in ignorance and can be banished by the light. 2:14:35.840 --> 2:14:38.760 He insisted, Meyer was barking up the wrong tree. My 2:14:38.920 --> 2:14:41.320 education did not help me, he said, And I had 2:14:41.360 --> 2:14:44.040 a broader and better education than most men have or 2:14:44.080 --> 2:14:46.760 ever will have. All it did, in the end was 2:14:46.880 --> 2:14:50.879 enable me to rationalize my failure of faith more easily 2:14:50.960 --> 2:14:52.839 that I might have done if I had been ignorant. 2:14:53.280 --> 2:14:53.920 And so it was. 2:14:53.960 --> 2:14:57.200 I think among educated men generally in that time in Germany, 2:14:57.480 --> 2:15:01.160 their resistance was no greater than other men's. And that's 2:15:01.160 --> 2:15:04.080 my challenge today to everyone at this symposium, and in 2:15:04.080 --> 2:15:06.440 fact to myself. We all have the benefit of an 2:15:06.520 --> 2:15:08.840 education where all the kind of people who sit down 2:15:08.880 --> 2:15:12.160 in nice rooms to discuss the issues. It is incumbent 2:15:12.280 --> 2:15:14.600 on us to look out at the people struggling in 2:15:14.680 --> 2:15:18.320 Chicago and Minneapolis and Los Angeles and Portland and Philadelphia 2:15:18.360 --> 2:15:21.800 and everywhere else and ask ourselves, how can I support them, 2:15:22.000 --> 2:15:24.880 and how can I go further? The answer to that 2:15:24.960 --> 2:15:27.440 question is going to be a little different for everyone here, 2:15:27.480 --> 2:15:29.600 but none of us can afford to hold on to 2:15:29.680 --> 2:15:33.200 our old ideas of what counts as acceptable and unacceptable protest. 2:15:33.680 --> 2:15:35.960 We're all going to have to become more comfortable with 2:15:36.040 --> 2:15:39.200 taking on risk, because the boundaries between what is legal 2:15:39.240 --> 2:15:41.720 and illegal are going to change on a daily basis 2:15:42.160 --> 2:15:44.480 as we prepare for what comes next. We could all 2:15:44.480 --> 2:15:46.200 do a lot worse than to take the advice of 2:15:46.280 --> 2:15:49.800 New Hampshire Episcopal Bishop Rob Hirschfeldt, who, during a vigil 2:15:49.840 --> 2:15:53.240 for renee Good, told his clergy get your affairs in order, 2:15:53.560 --> 2:15:56.200 make sure you have your wills written, because it may 2:15:56.200 --> 2:15:58.880 be that now is no longer the time for statements, 2:15:59.120 --> 2:16:01.880 but for us, with our bodies, to stand between the 2:16:01.960 --> 2:16:04.360 powers of this world and the most vulnerable. 2:16:05.720 --> 2:16:06.080 I got. 2:16:18.360 --> 2:16:25.080 Thank you, Robert for that amazing speech, inspiring, sobering, challenging, 2:16:25.240 --> 2:16:28.360 confronting all of those things. It sort of almost feels 2:16:29.360 --> 2:16:32.160 I didn't want to describe it because in describing it, 2:16:32.240 --> 2:16:35.640 I feel that it may reduce it to anecdote. It 2:16:35.720 --> 2:16:39.039 was so powerful, but you know, I was so struck 2:16:39.200 --> 2:16:43.360 by your reference to Milton Mayer's account of the man 2:16:43.440 --> 2:16:48.200 who took the oath and who later said that day 2:16:48.240 --> 2:16:51.040 the world was lost and it was I who lost it. 2:16:52.160 --> 2:16:54.959 And I think that when liberals today, all of us, 2:16:55.040 --> 2:16:58.279 you know, we tell ourselves that we're choosing a less evil, 2:16:58.959 --> 2:17:03.440 we're staying quiet, or we're sort of staying within the 2:17:03.480 --> 2:17:04.600 bounds of you. 2:17:04.560 --> 2:17:05.600 Know, a particular reaction. 2:17:06.440 --> 2:17:08.840 I often ask myself the question, you know, what are 2:17:08.840 --> 2:17:12.840 we giving away in the process? You know, what compels 2:17:12.920 --> 2:17:16.879 people to cross from accommodation into moral risk? And is 2:17:16.920 --> 2:17:20.320 there a moment ahead where mass refusal could alter that 2:17:20.360 --> 2:17:24.520 trajectory or has that window already begun to close? You know, 2:17:24.600 --> 2:17:27.600 I think of my own, my own experience. You know, 2:17:27.680 --> 2:17:29.640 some people in the room know that I was a 2:17:29.640 --> 2:17:32.840 political prisoner in South Africa, and you know, I made 2:17:32.879 --> 2:17:35.320 a very conscious decision at a certain point, and it 2:17:35.360 --> 2:17:39.280 was a moral decision to get involved in the Antipotheid struggle, 2:17:39.400 --> 2:17:43.320 knowing what the costs were. But I would love to 2:17:43.400 --> 2:17:46.879 hear from you about what it is you think that 2:17:47.000 --> 2:17:50.600 compels people, as I said earlier on, to cross from 2:17:50.640 --> 2:17:52.400 accommodation into moral risk. 2:17:52.959 --> 2:17:55.840 I think that's a fascinating and an incredibly important question, 2:17:55.959 --> 2:17:57.880 and it's it's one I don't have a perfect answer 2:17:57.879 --> 2:18:00.680 to because there's a degree of mystery I've been a 2:18:00.760 --> 2:18:04.480 number of times with a crowd who you've seen it 2:18:04.560 --> 2:18:07.000 kind of come across their eyes and like confrontations with 2:18:07.120 --> 2:18:10.000 local police or with federal ass that we have the 2:18:10.000 --> 2:18:12.040 Mount numbered, and sometimes we have them Mount numbered and 2:18:12.080 --> 2:18:15.240 their AMMO just ran dry, and you see everybody in 2:18:15.280 --> 2:18:18.000 the crowd make a decision in that moment to kind 2:18:18.000 --> 2:18:21.320 of stay where they are, to not see what could 2:18:21.360 --> 2:18:24.400 come next, right, to not take a step forward, because 2:18:24.440 --> 2:18:27.720 they all have lives, because we have a functional enough society, 2:18:27.760 --> 2:18:30.440 because people have kids to get back to and jobs 2:18:30.480 --> 2:18:32.560 to get back to, and nobody wants to play act 2:18:32.760 --> 2:18:36.000 at an October revolution in between the middle of their 2:18:36.040 --> 2:18:38.280 work week. And one of the things that is a 2:18:38.320 --> 2:18:41.600 potential moment of change is when that the certainty of well, 2:18:41.600 --> 2:18:44.400 I have a life, right, and my friends have lives, 2:18:44.400 --> 2:18:46.959 and we all have something to get back to. When 2:18:47.000 --> 2:18:49.200 you have a large enough chunk of the populace who 2:18:49.200 --> 2:18:51.920 doesn't feel that way, who feels like, well, they've taken 2:18:52.160 --> 2:18:54.520 what I would go back to, They've taken any sense 2:18:54.560 --> 2:18:58.240 of security I have. There's no longer a point in 2:18:58.280 --> 2:19:01.640 me holding back because this is not holding back, and 2:19:01.720 --> 2:19:05.160 I don't have anything to go back to that's one 2:19:05.200 --> 2:19:08.680 of the things that causes mass and sudden flips. And 2:19:09.000 --> 2:19:11.040 you asked a little earlier, do I think the window 2:19:11.120 --> 2:19:16.039 is closing? And I think, kind of somewhat paradoxically, the 2:19:16.080 --> 2:19:18.920 window starts closing as soon as it opens, but it 2:19:18.959 --> 2:19:22.240 can never close all the way because there's not a 2:19:22.280 --> 2:19:24.560 lot of them. This is true in every country, with 2:19:24.640 --> 2:19:27.920 every state police force compared to the size of the populace. 2:19:28.040 --> 2:19:31.000 And so there's always a potential when enough people get 2:19:31.040 --> 2:19:35.200 angry and enough people get radicalized, that a system, even 2:19:35.600 --> 2:19:37.760 with the amount of violence behind it that ours has, 2:19:37.840 --> 2:19:41.120 can be toppled. That said, the longer we let this 2:19:41.280 --> 2:19:46.000 go on, the more they have wrapped their fingers around 2:19:46.080 --> 2:19:49.760 every aspect of policing injustice in this country, the more 2:19:49.840 --> 2:19:54.480 ability they have given their officers to utilize violence, to 2:19:54.560 --> 2:19:58.520 utilize advanced weaponry, to utilize drones and things like stingrays 2:19:58.520 --> 2:20:02.480 and whatnot against protesters. And so in that way, the 2:20:02.560 --> 2:20:06.040 window within which people can react and feel like they 2:20:06.080 --> 2:20:09.160 have a decent chance of getting away or of succeeding 2:20:09.320 --> 2:20:12.440 closes because the force deployed against them gets larger, which 2:20:12.440 --> 2:20:14.960 makes it a lot scarier and makes people less likely 2:20:15.040 --> 2:20:16.119 to take those risks. 2:20:17.120 --> 2:20:20.240 So so what does fighting back actually mean? 2:20:20.760 --> 2:20:21.720 I mean that that's. 2:20:21.600 --> 2:20:23.800 Really yeah, you know, that's a really I think that 2:20:23.800 --> 2:20:26.440 that's a really important question because you know, as you 2:20:26.480 --> 2:20:29.280 spoke about in your you know, in your remarks, and 2:20:29.320 --> 2:20:32.560 we know so well that you know, when the government 2:20:32.640 --> 2:20:36.120 or whatever controls the police, they control the military, you know, 2:20:36.200 --> 2:20:39.080 and if that has identified you as being you know, 2:20:39.200 --> 2:20:41.879 quote unquote to terrorist, regardless of you know, what the 2:20:41.920 --> 2:20:46.920 circumstances might be, what does fighting back actually mean? You know, 2:20:47.040 --> 2:20:49.600 what what is that resistance en compass? And we know 2:20:49.680 --> 2:20:52.840 that it can take many many forms. So I sort 2:20:52.879 --> 2:20:54.959 of want to push you a little bit more, you know, 2:20:55.040 --> 2:20:58.840 what does fighting back actually mean? But what for you 2:20:59.080 --> 2:21:03.800 feels morally defensible and what genuinely troubles you? 2:21:04.680 --> 2:21:07.560 Yeah, I guess to start with if the question is 2:21:08.040 --> 2:21:10.039 what does fighting back look like in terms of what 2:21:10.160 --> 2:21:12.320 is an escalation from the ways in which we're currently 2:21:12.360 --> 2:21:15.240 fighting back that is still within the bounds of what 2:21:15.400 --> 2:21:17.760 most people on our side of the aisle would call 2:21:17.879 --> 2:21:22.240 like peaceful and morally justified if it's not legal, right, Well, 2:21:22.240 --> 2:21:24.119 one thing that comes to mind as a general strike, 2:21:24.160 --> 2:21:25.920 and in fact, the only thing that comes to mind 2:21:25.920 --> 2:21:28.560 that I think actually has serious weight. The weight to 2:21:28.720 --> 2:21:32.920 uproot a security state as powerful and established as ours is. 2:21:32.959 --> 2:21:36.400 The way to uproot a regime that says entrenched dis 2:21:36.400 --> 2:21:38.840 ours is a general strike. It's almost the only leverage 2:21:38.840 --> 2:21:40.720 that we have, which is why I'm happy to see 2:21:40.760 --> 2:21:43.720 them starting to explore doing it, and as a real thing. 2:21:43.800 --> 2:21:47.120 In Minneapolis, you get this thing online and Twitter, on 2:21:47.160 --> 2:21:49.959 Blue Sky whatever, where people will periodically be like, we're 2:21:49.959 --> 2:21:53.360 doing a general strike next week, Nobody go to workers shop. 2:21:53.400 --> 2:21:54.640 It's like, that's not how it works. 2:21:54.680 --> 2:21:56.960 You've got to you have to have the backing of unions, 2:21:57.040 --> 2:21:59.080 You have to have you have to have a lot 2:21:59.160 --> 2:22:01.560 of infrastructure set up to try and figure out how 2:22:01.560 --> 2:22:03.080 are we going to feed people, How are we going 2:22:03.120 --> 2:22:04.920 to keep people's lights on as much as possible, How 2:22:04.920 --> 2:22:07.720 are we going to provide people with the necessities during 2:22:07.720 --> 2:22:11.080 what will probably be an extended period of time out 2:22:11.080 --> 2:22:12.840 of work, and a time in which, if you're talking 2:22:12.840 --> 2:22:16.200 about a real general strike, a lot of the pillars 2:22:16.600 --> 2:22:19.560 that uphold daily life and our daily comforts will start 2:22:19.600 --> 2:22:23.000 to fail if it's an actual, functional general strike, And 2:22:23.080 --> 2:22:26.200 so you have to have systems built up for that, 2:22:26.480 --> 2:22:29.160 and it's one of the things people don't often think 2:22:29.160 --> 2:22:32.480 about when they're hearing these kind of big hitch ideas 2:22:32.520 --> 2:22:36.320 for resistance campaigns. One of my favorite examples of this 2:22:36.520 --> 2:22:39.400 just in terms of like the difference between here's the 2:22:39.520 --> 2:22:41.240 idea and here's the things we have to do to 2:22:41.280 --> 2:22:44.720 execute it. In Liberia, kind of at the end of 2:22:44.840 --> 2:22:47.080 the last really big period they had of like these 2:22:47.160 --> 2:22:51.080 kind of warring warlords, there was a massive protest campaign 2:22:51.120 --> 2:22:54.040 by women in Liberia that was I mean, it was 2:22:54.080 --> 2:22:56.880 basically pulled right out of Lizistrata. It was we are 2:22:56.879 --> 2:22:59.240 not going to have sex with our husbands, like, we're 2:22:59.280 --> 2:23:01.720 not going to do it. It was a mass resistance campaign. 2:23:01.720 --> 2:23:05.120 This has been written about. I know it sounds like Lizistrata, 2:23:05.160 --> 2:23:08.200 but it's a real thing that happened. And when they 2:23:08.200 --> 2:23:10.400 were considering how are we going to actually do this, 2:23:10.480 --> 2:23:13.240 they had to consider some really ugly realities, including the 2:23:13.280 --> 2:23:16.400 reality of rape, and so a factor behind the scenes 2:23:16.400 --> 2:23:18.720 and figuring out how to organize this was how are 2:23:18.760 --> 2:23:21.160 we going to create networks to smuggle women out of 2:23:21.240 --> 2:23:23.680 dangerous homes and keep them safe for the length of 2:23:23.720 --> 2:23:27.760 this protest campaign? Right and when you're talking about what's 2:23:27.760 --> 2:23:29.720 going to be necessary for a general strike, it's a 2:23:29.760 --> 2:23:33.040 ton of illegalism, right, you know, everything from people shoplifting 2:23:33.080 --> 2:23:35.320 food to stop people from starving, but to the very 2:23:35.360 --> 2:23:39.279 fact that carrying out and participating in a general strike, 2:23:39.320 --> 2:23:42.240 if one gains any momentum, will be declared illegal by 2:23:42.280 --> 2:23:44.560 the regime. They will try to crack down, They will 2:23:44.640 --> 2:23:48.039 arrest ring leaders, they will put people in black sites. 2:23:48.400 --> 2:23:50.840 These are realities that have to be accounted for in 2:23:50.879 --> 2:23:54.280 the underlying planning, and I'm hopeful about the potential for 2:23:54.360 --> 2:23:57.160 something like that in twenty twenty eight. Now, when it 2:23:57.200 --> 2:23:59.560 comes to the stuff that really scares me, one of 2:23:59.600 --> 2:24:03.240 the things that scares me is what happens if we 2:24:03.400 --> 2:24:07.080 cross the point into which there is no longer any 2:24:07.680 --> 2:24:11.400 hope or talk of peaceful resistance, right. And you have 2:24:11.440 --> 2:24:13.240 to consider this when you have a large number of 2:24:13.320 --> 2:24:15.520 armed men saying we just need to kill all of 2:24:15.520 --> 2:24:17.000 the people who are on the other side of this 2:24:17.040 --> 2:24:19.199 thing which we have in this country right now. There's 2:24:19.240 --> 2:24:21.760 a lot of them, They have weapons, many of them 2:24:22.000 --> 2:24:24.879 are in the police, some of them are in the military. 2:24:25.680 --> 2:24:29.720 These are realities of our present situation, and that's scary 2:24:29.720 --> 2:24:33.160 to me because when you cross that line, there's no 2:24:33.240 --> 2:24:35.840 longer any question of like right or wrong. It's just 2:24:35.879 --> 2:24:39.039 a matter of like what can survive the onslaught, And 2:24:39.640 --> 2:24:41.680 that's I think the thing to try to avoid at 2:24:41.720 --> 2:24:44.480 all costs, because any sort of mass internescing conflict in 2:24:44.520 --> 2:24:47.480 the United States among the Americans, it'll kill is many 2:24:47.480 --> 2:24:50.440 people outside of the country because global food systems and 2:24:50.480 --> 2:24:54.880 global medicines to supply systems will collapse. Right, So we're 2:24:54.920 --> 2:24:58.160 talking about having governors call out the National Guard against 2:24:58.320 --> 2:25:02.640 federal police forces. I think about both the necessity of that, 2:25:02.680 --> 2:25:04.520 because you have to try to resist and you have 2:25:04.600 --> 2:25:07.200 to try to make it clear is there anyone backing 2:25:07.320 --> 2:25:10.959 up the people from this federal agency? Is there anyone 2:25:10.959 --> 2:25:13.000 at a state level? Is there any kind of resistance 2:25:13.480 --> 2:25:15.120 that the state is going to respect? You have to 2:25:15.160 --> 2:25:17.560 ask that question, but some of the answers to it 2:25:17.560 --> 2:25:19.800 can take us to really terrifying places. And I don't 2:25:19.800 --> 2:25:21.959 think we can avoid asking the question anymore. I don't 2:25:21.959 --> 2:25:24.280 think we're going to avoid a point at which some 2:25:24.480 --> 2:25:28.440 governor tries something like that, because Ice is going to 2:25:28.480 --> 2:25:32.520 continue grabbing, right, They're going to continue pushing what they 2:25:32.560 --> 2:25:34.920 can do in blue cities. They're not going to This 2:25:35.000 --> 2:25:37.160 is not the extent of the shit they're going to try. 2:25:37.400 --> 2:25:41.720 Sorry, no, you know, and I think it's also particularly 2:25:42.400 --> 2:25:45.879 terrifying we think of what the budgets are behind, you 2:25:45.920 --> 2:25:48.800 know that enables this, and you know, the budgets that 2:25:48.879 --> 2:25:50.880 are now about to be voted. I mean we're not 2:25:50.959 --> 2:25:54.120 just we're talking about billions and billions, eh, and it's 2:25:54.160 --> 2:25:57.840 just extraordinary. So you know, I mean again going back 2:25:57.879 --> 2:25:59.840 to my experience in South Africa and you know, this 2:26:00.080 --> 2:26:03.080 idea of a general strike, you know, what was ultimately 2:26:03.200 --> 2:26:08.040 the most effective weapon against the apartheid regime was mass mobilizing, 2:26:08.120 --> 2:26:12.120 mass organizing across the country, mass marches that actually that 2:26:12.240 --> 2:26:16.800 quite literally made it was a specific campaign to make 2:26:16.840 --> 2:26:20.160 the country ungovernable. And it was on every level. It 2:26:20.240 --> 2:26:23.879 was consumer boycotts, it was mass marches, it was you know, 2:26:24.000 --> 2:26:27.480 marches specifically targeted at the aparthe eight laws that broke 2:26:27.520 --> 2:26:29.560 the back of the apartheight laws. And it was that 2:26:29.800 --> 2:26:34.640 aided by incredible pressure from outside, from outside sanctions. 2:26:34.840 --> 2:26:36.440 Of course, things are very different now. 2:26:36.840 --> 2:26:39.880 But you know, this does take me to another question 2:26:40.040 --> 2:26:42.440 something that I've thought a lot about is you know, 2:26:43.240 --> 2:26:45.920 after this whole crisis, after this is over, you know, 2:26:46.000 --> 2:26:49.320 what are the consequences? What about accountability? You know, when 2:26:49.360 --> 2:26:51.520 we get to the other side of this, which we will, 2:26:52.000 --> 2:26:54.000 we will get to the other side of this. You know, 2:26:54.080 --> 2:26:57.680 what should that accountability look like? Is it an American 2:26:57.680 --> 2:27:01.080 truth and reconciliation campaign? You know, we had a truth 2:27:01.080 --> 2:27:05.560 and reconciliation campaign in South Africa and it was extraordinarily healing, 2:27:06.520 --> 2:27:08.600 but there was no restitution and at the end of 2:27:08.600 --> 2:27:10.800 the day, there was no justice. So what was the 2:27:10.840 --> 2:27:15.840 sort of transformational societal transformational aspect of that should we 2:27:15.920 --> 2:27:20.520 think about an American truth and reconciliation campaign? Is it 2:27:20.600 --> 2:27:24.400 something closer to Nuremberg? You know, who gain to be 2:27:24.480 --> 2:27:29.640 seen as the architects of this authoritarian movement? Who going 2:27:29.680 --> 2:27:33.359 to be seen as the architects of this anti authoritarian movement? 2:27:33.800 --> 2:27:35.960 You know, how do we as a democratic country or 2:27:35.959 --> 2:27:39.680 a democratic society, how willing are we to go to 2:27:39.720 --> 2:27:42.760 pursue those consequences? I mean, we've just seen how hollow 2:27:42.840 --> 2:27:46.400 that can be. You know, after January sixth, you know 2:27:46.440 --> 2:27:50.080 how Trump has pardoned the insurrectionists. I'd love to hear 2:27:50.120 --> 2:27:52.039 your thoughts on that, and I know we've only got 2:27:52.280 --> 2:27:55.760 three minutes left before I get hold off the stage. 2:27:56.200 --> 2:27:58.400 Well, I mean, I guess I have two answers to that. 2:27:58.400 --> 2:28:00.360 The first would be what do I think is likely 2:28:00.400 --> 2:28:02.320 to happen? And then what should happen? In terms of 2:28:02.320 --> 2:28:05.240 what's likely to happen, I guess the likeliest thing is 2:28:05.280 --> 2:28:08.560 that if we have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it's 2:28:08.560 --> 2:28:11.039 something that we kind of half ass and it falls 2:28:11.040 --> 2:28:13.120 way too short, and there's not any kind of criminal 2:28:13.160 --> 2:28:15.480 restitution for the people who are breaking laws and hurting 2:28:15.480 --> 2:28:19.120 and killing people right now. I would say that's a 2:28:19.320 --> 2:28:22.560 likely possibility, just given the way in which this country 2:28:22.560 --> 2:28:24.760 has handled similar things in the past and the ways 2:28:24.760 --> 2:28:26.879 in which other countries have handled similar things in the past. 2:28:26.959 --> 2:28:29.640 Let's not forget the Nuremberg. For all of the things 2:28:29.680 --> 2:28:32.400 about it that were good, was also a failure in 2:28:32.400 --> 2:28:34.520 a lot of ways. Right The vast majority of the 2:28:34.560 --> 2:28:37.800 Nazis who participated directly physically in the Holocaust did not 2:28:37.840 --> 2:28:41.320 see any kind of criminal consequences. So when it comes 2:28:41.360 --> 2:28:44.760 to what I think we should have, I think we 2:28:44.840 --> 2:28:48.000 do need something along the lines of in Nuremberg. And 2:28:48.040 --> 2:28:49.960 I think that if you want to talk about the 2:28:50.000 --> 2:28:53.760 people politically who are committing crimes right now and who 2:28:53.760 --> 2:28:55.560 should be on trial, I think we can all come 2:28:55.640 --> 2:28:57.279 up with a lot of very similar names. 2:28:57.920 --> 2:28:58.600 And I'm very. 2:28:58.480 --> 2:29:02.240 Supportive of trying and bringing this regime to justice for 2:29:02.280 --> 2:29:05.320 its current illegal behavior and past illegal behavior. That said, 2:29:05.720 --> 2:29:08.960 I think it's going to be also a failure if 2:29:09.000 --> 2:29:13.320 we do not extend any attempt at criminal consequences, at 2:29:13.360 --> 2:29:14.560 retribution at justice. 2:29:14.680 --> 2:29:15.360 I guess would be. 2:29:15.280 --> 2:29:18.039 The better term to a group of people who have 2:29:18.200 --> 2:29:21.120 underlined all of the negative societal changes that are happening 2:29:21.160 --> 2:29:22.959 right now, which is the people who run all of 2:29:23.000 --> 2:29:25.680 the major social media corporations in the world, all of 2:29:25.720 --> 2:29:29.800 whom are deeply complicit and not just our authoritarian slide, 2:29:29.840 --> 2:29:32.360 but in direct violence. Facebook knew for a fact that 2:29:32.400 --> 2:29:35.240 the military of me Amar was using their website to 2:29:35.240 --> 2:29:38.400 spread propaganda to help further in ethnic cleansing, and they 2:29:39.040 --> 2:29:41.360 made the choice basically to sit with that because it 2:29:41.440 --> 2:29:43.560 made the money, you know, And that sort of thing 2:29:43.959 --> 2:29:46.119 should be seen as just as illegal as a bunch 2:29:46.160 --> 2:29:48.920 of ice agents without a warrant busting into somebody's house 2:29:48.959 --> 2:29:50.000 with guns, you know. 2:29:50.680 --> 2:29:52.039 So that's where I stand. 2:29:52.280 --> 2:29:55.360 I'm on a we didn't go nearly far enough after 2:29:55.400 --> 2:29:57.640 the Civil War either kind of kick right now, but 2:29:58.240 --> 2:29:59.560 without need to go into that. 2:30:00.280 --> 2:30:03.280 We've come to the end of our time. Unfortunately, you 2:30:03.320 --> 2:30:07.480 know I could continue. I've got, you know, seven seven 2:30:07.560 --> 2:30:09.600 questions that I would have loved to have asked you, 2:30:10.160 --> 2:30:12.680 but we don't have time. But you know, Robert, I 2:30:12.720 --> 2:30:16.560 can't thank you enough for coming, for being with us, 2:30:16.760 --> 2:30:21.120 for sharing your thoughts, and you know, traveling all the 2:30:21.160 --> 2:30:25.040 way from Portland, and you know, I'm so sorry about 2:30:25.040 --> 2:30:27.600 the hundred times that you've been to your guest. You know, 2:30:27.680 --> 2:30:30.119 I've been to your guest many many times in my life, 2:30:30.160 --> 2:30:31.600 but it's definitely not one hundred. 2:30:31.720 --> 2:30:33.119 There's a lot of people got to your guests more 2:30:33.160 --> 2:30:34.519 than me, and Bortlands. 2:30:35.560 --> 2:30:36.680 Well and elsewhere. 2:30:36.879 --> 2:30:39.360 Thank you, Thank you so much, and thank you all 2:30:39.440 --> 2:30:40.440 for bearing with us. 2:30:55.200 --> 2:30:58.160 This is it could happen here at Executive Disorder, our 2:30:58.200 --> 2:31:01.320 weekly newscast covering what's happening the White House, the crumbling world, 2:31:01.320 --> 2:31:03.800 and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis Dame, 2:31:03.879 --> 2:31:08.480 joined by James Stout, Robert Evans and maybe Sophie Lichterman. Yeah, 2:31:08.640 --> 2:31:11.840 this episode we are covering the week of January twenty 2:31:11.879 --> 2:31:17.440 eighth to February fourth. Very exciting events happening this weekend, 2:31:17.600 --> 2:31:21.160 as we know, the super Bowl and even more importantly, 2:31:21.160 --> 2:31:24.760 the Turning Point USA halftime Show streaming on Daily Wire Plus, 2:31:24.800 --> 2:31:29.720 America's Real Voice, National News Desk and TBN. I don't 2:31:29.720 --> 2:31:30.240 know what that is. 2:31:30.280 --> 2:31:33.839 Way pause, pause, it's behind a payroll. 2:31:33.720 --> 2:31:36.960 Uh you know, unclear? Well, but probably not because it's 2:31:37.000 --> 2:31:39.720 gonna be Also it's also gonna be on YouTube x 2:31:39.800 --> 2:31:40.960 Everything app and Rumble. 2:31:41.480 --> 2:31:43.320 But I was going to ask it was on Rumble. 2:31:43.560 --> 2:31:45.240 It's gonna be Oh, don't worry, James that there are 2:31:45.280 --> 2:31:47.840 one step ahead of you and we can we can 2:31:47.879 --> 2:31:50.039 see all of our favorite acts. We have kid Rock, 2:31:50.520 --> 2:31:54.080 Bradley Gilbert, Lee Brice, and Gabby Barrett, all of my 2:31:54.200 --> 2:31:55.480 favorite performers. 2:31:55.760 --> 2:31:57.920 Garrett, I haven't seen kid Rock since you and I 2:31:58.000 --> 2:31:59.840 watched Kid Rock together at the RNC. 2:32:00.280 --> 2:32:02.480 It's been too long. It's been too long. 2:32:02.800 --> 2:32:03.920 It's been way too long. 2:32:04.040 --> 2:32:06.520 It's been too long. I'm I'm excited for Lee Bryce 2:32:06.640 --> 2:32:10.120 obviously as a as as the biggest Bryce head on 2:32:10.160 --> 2:32:13.400 the pod. Rice is gonna be huge. Yeabby Beart will 2:32:13.400 --> 2:32:15.840 be a nice you know, a nice little spice on top. 2:32:16.360 --> 2:32:19.000 Yeah, and this guy's name is it's not Bradley, It's 2:32:19.360 --> 2:32:20.360 it's Brandley. 2:32:20.600 --> 2:32:25.640 Sorry, Brandy Gilbert. My my apologies, my apologies all the 2:32:25.640 --> 2:32:29.920 big Brandley fans out there by bad name obviously the 2:32:29.959 --> 2:32:31.560 most literally. 2:32:31.480 --> 2:32:36.280 Brand that's not a real name. That's just not a 2:32:36.320 --> 2:32:39.280 real name. Yeah, it isn't spelt with L E I 2:32:39.400 --> 2:32:41.640 g H. So we do have to give him that. 2:32:42.440 --> 2:32:44.800 If it was Brandt Leigh, I would be doing some 2:32:44.920 --> 2:32:45.800 terrorism right. 2:32:46.400 --> 2:32:49.959 Right, gun in my hand. Yeah, I would be unable 2:32:49.959 --> 2:32:50.720 to stop myself. 2:32:51.280 --> 2:32:54.199 You guys, I just googled Lee Brice and the first 2:32:54.200 --> 2:32:56.480 picture that pops up is incredible and I'm gonna put 2:32:56.480 --> 2:32:57.120 it in the chat. 2:32:57.440 --> 2:32:59.000 Please do is it in the work chat? 2:32:59.400 --> 2:33:03.240 It's zoomed. That's the first picture that pops up. It's incredible. 2:33:03.680 --> 2:33:04.480 Oh he looks tough. 2:33:04.600 --> 2:33:06.240 Wow is he in band of brothers? 2:33:06.840 --> 2:33:08.560 His jaw is fantastic. 2:33:08.600 --> 2:33:10.840 Oh my god, an incredible first photo. 2:33:11.240 --> 2:33:14.040 Yeah, his expression isn't though. He's really letting himself down 2:33:14.040 --> 2:33:14.520 with the face. 2:33:14.600 --> 2:33:16.800 Yeah, his face says I really am racist. 2:33:17.080 --> 2:33:18.520 It just doesn't look happy to be there. 2:33:19.320 --> 2:33:22.080 So obviously, after about six months of planning, Turning Point 2:33:22.080 --> 2:33:24.320 was able to put together just the finest, the finest 2:33:24.320 --> 2:33:26.640 acts in all the show business for their for their 2:33:26.760 --> 2:33:31.520 all Americans, all the big names, really whatever flits, everyone's 2:33:31.560 --> 2:33:35.039 it to listen. They could not even get Nicki Minaje, 2:33:35.160 --> 2:33:38.560 which is like so humiliating, Like, come on, guys. 2:33:38.600 --> 2:33:41.720 Yeah, didn't she do a dance with the Treasury Secretary 2:33:41.800 --> 2:33:42.760 yesterday or something? 2:33:43.160 --> 2:33:43.400 Yes? 2:33:44.120 --> 2:33:46.959 Who is that guy or those two people that were 2:33:47.000 --> 2:33:49.240 at the R and C that they kept showing doing 2:33:49.240 --> 2:33:50.119 that rap video? 2:33:50.920 --> 2:33:52.400 I like kind of blocked it down. 2:33:52.520 --> 2:33:55.080 Yeah, those conservative rap guys. 2:33:55.200 --> 2:33:58.760 Yeah, for Gattio Blow is it forget for Gatio Blow 2:33:58.840 --> 2:34:00.560 is one of the conservative rap guys. 2:34:00.640 --> 2:34:03.360 Yes, yeah, I will admit I don't have a deep 2:34:03.400 --> 2:34:04.400 knowledge in this area. 2:34:04.800 --> 2:34:07.320 I I saw him at the R n C. I 2:34:07.400 --> 2:34:09.800 was walking behind him on my way to the beer store. 2:34:09.879 --> 2:34:14.760 He's incredible. He's an amazing looking man. Yeah, that's a 2:34:14.840 --> 2:34:18.160 unique dude. That's a that's your risky goople of the day. 2:34:18.640 --> 2:34:23.720 God really broke the mold with him. 2:34:24.480 --> 2:34:28.520 So we will we will report on how the Turning 2:34:28.560 --> 2:34:32.080 Point halftime show went next week for the next d 2:34:32.200 --> 2:34:34.120 D because you you know that I'm going to be 2:34:34.160 --> 2:34:35.440 turned into rumble to watch this. 2:34:35.959 --> 2:34:38.720 Yeah, it's gonna be We're need a minute by minute 2:34:38.760 --> 2:34:40.360 breakdown of this bad Boy. 2:34:40.879 --> 2:34:42.560 I'll be taking extensive notes. 2:34:44.720 --> 2:34:47.080 I feel'll be able to record in watch it again 2:34:47.160 --> 2:34:49.440 later for posterity. I feel like it's gonna go down 2:34:49.520 --> 2:34:52.160 like live aid. You know, it's the greatest moment in 2:34:52.360 --> 2:34:52.920 live music. 2:34:53.200 --> 2:34:55.400 It is interesting that they are showing it on national 2:34:55.400 --> 2:35:00.320 news desk. Fox News did not do not decide to 2:35:00.440 --> 2:35:03.160 air air the all of Eric at halftime show, so 2:35:03.320 --> 2:35:05.680 instead you have to tune into TBN whatever that is 2:35:05.760 --> 2:35:08.400 in a national news desk. So let's get us some 2:35:08.440 --> 2:35:09.320 actual news though. 2:35:09.560 --> 2:35:14.040 Sure, real news, Okay. So Portland, Oregon has been the 2:35:14.080 --> 2:35:19.600 site of some recent noteworthy ice protests. On Saturday, the 2:35:19.800 --> 2:35:24.560 thirty first of January, there was a large union march 2:35:25.160 --> 2:35:28.800 on the Ice building on McAdams Street in Portland, Oregon. 2:35:29.320 --> 2:35:31.960 This was like basically every union in Portland. It was 2:35:32.000 --> 2:35:34.879 the largest union march that we've had here in like 2:35:35.000 --> 2:35:38.040 twenty years. Somewhere along those lines, about five to ten 2:35:38.120 --> 2:35:40.840 thousand people showed up. Wow, when I heard it was 2:35:40.879 --> 2:35:43.040 ten k because I wound up there. I hadn't even 2:35:43.200 --> 2:35:45.080 planning to go, but I showed up with a friend 2:35:45.280 --> 2:35:47.680 and as we were kind of watching the crowd pass, 2:35:47.720 --> 2:35:50.240 a buddy of ours came up who knows one of 2:35:50.240 --> 2:35:51.959 the people who organized the march, and was like, yeah, 2:35:52.000 --> 2:35:54.800 they're expecting like ten thousand people and I was like, 2:35:54.840 --> 2:35:56.400 there's no way they're going to get ten that fucking 2:35:56.440 --> 2:35:59.080 people out here. And then as the crowd went past 2:35:59.120 --> 2:36:01.320 me for like twenty straight minutes, and I was like, yeah, 2:36:01.360 --> 2:36:04.400 that might be ten thousand people. That really is quite 2:36:04.440 --> 2:36:07.720 a lot of motherfucking people. It was an extremely diverse crowd, 2:36:08.000 --> 2:36:11.080 which I mean in the age sense primarily it's Portlands, 2:36:11.120 --> 2:36:14.440 so not in the in any other sense of the word. 2:36:14.680 --> 2:36:21.600 Yeah, those protests tend to have you know, older folks, teenagers, families, teachers. 2:36:21.560 --> 2:36:24.440 A lot of older folks, a lot of little kids, 2:36:24.640 --> 2:36:27.560 kids who were like eight to twelve years old. Because 2:36:27.560 --> 2:36:30.640 it was just suppose people were like the basic rout 2:36:30.680 --> 2:36:33.959 of march was doing a circle around the ice facility, 2:36:34.000 --> 2:36:37.600 and then there was like sound equipment and music set 2:36:37.680 --> 2:36:41.199 up on a nearby park. So I think I don't 2:36:41.240 --> 2:36:44.640 believe the plan was an extended confrontation with Ice, which 2:36:44.680 --> 2:36:47.920 is what made what came next so surprising, which is 2:36:47.920 --> 2:36:51.039 that we start walking towards where the route of march 2:36:51.080 --> 2:36:52.680 is heading. We're kind of in like the middle of 2:36:52.720 --> 2:36:57.240 the crowd probably, and we see a cloud and it's 2:36:57.280 --> 2:37:00.240 like three point thirty in the afternoon. So the people 2:37:00.280 --> 2:37:02.600 I'm with, who have all been through their share of 2:37:02.640 --> 2:37:05.800 Portland protests, are like, that can't be tear gas. It's 2:37:05.840 --> 2:37:08.640 not even four pm and this is the Liberal March. 2:37:08.640 --> 2:37:11.959 There's no way they've gassed it already. Like I saw 2:37:12.000 --> 2:37:13.880 the front of the march. It was a bunch of 2:37:13.879 --> 2:37:18.360 people in their fifties. Like, they're not forcing the issue 2:37:18.400 --> 2:37:22.279 with Ice, I don't think, but apparently pray the claims 2:37:22.320 --> 2:37:24.840 made by Ice. When the crowd reached the Ice building, 2:37:24.920 --> 2:37:28.760 people began throwing water bottles. So obviously that's a situation 2:37:28.840 --> 2:37:33.080 that can't be allowed to continue. So they gas the 2:37:33.240 --> 2:37:36.120 absolute fuck out of the march, and they gased it 2:37:36.240 --> 2:37:39.640 so much that the cloud of gas spread to cover 2:37:39.760 --> 2:37:42.680 pretty much the entire march, including the people who were 2:37:42.680 --> 2:37:43.360 nowhere near. 2:37:43.320 --> 2:37:44.200 The front of the march. 2:37:44.240 --> 2:37:44.520 Yet. 2:37:45.040 --> 2:37:47.560 So as we're walking towards it, we've become aware about 2:37:47.560 --> 2:37:50.000 halfway towards getting to it that like, okay, that's not 2:37:50.160 --> 2:37:54.240 smoke that is in fact gas. Some of us had masks. 2:37:54.360 --> 2:37:56.040 I did not, so I'm like, well, I'm going to 2:37:56.120 --> 2:37:58.400 have a bad time. This is straight up not going 2:37:58.440 --> 2:38:01.480 to be fun album with It was because of where 2:38:01.520 --> 2:38:02.320 they gassed us. 2:38:02.360 --> 2:38:04.199 There were kind of two streets. 2:38:03.760 --> 2:38:06.240 Of buildings on either side, so you basically got you're 2:38:06.280 --> 2:38:09.400 in like a valley almost. You've got steep canyon walls 2:38:09.480 --> 2:38:11.640 kind of on either side of you. And there was 2:38:11.720 --> 2:38:16.240 no wind that day, so you've just got this thick 2:38:16.440 --> 2:38:20.520 cloud of gas smoke and ten thousand people crammed in 2:38:20.680 --> 2:38:25.120 between two pillars of buildings. So it was a very 2:38:25.280 --> 2:38:28.560 bad time. A lot of kids got gassed. I saw 2:38:28.600 --> 2:38:32.720 a number of children in significant distress, like little kids. 2:38:32.720 --> 2:38:35.640 A lot of old people wound up in significant distress. 2:38:36.240 --> 2:38:39.680 It was straight up a bad time and it continued 2:38:39.879 --> 2:38:41.640 for the next day. There was another march the next 2:38:41.680 --> 2:38:45.080 day that started at city Hall. This kind of galvanized 2:38:45.240 --> 2:38:47.959 people in Portland to specifically take up the charge of 2:38:47.959 --> 2:38:52.520 protesting for the city to basically not renew or cancel 2:38:52.640 --> 2:38:55.600 ICE's contract to use the building that they're based out of. 2:38:56.160 --> 2:38:59.200 So there was a large march on Sunday. I showed 2:38:59.240 --> 2:39:00.240 up as the march. 2:39:00.000 --> 2:39:02.959 Which reached the Ice area because. 2:39:02.720 --> 2:39:04.080 I didn't want to walk across town. 2:39:05.080 --> 2:39:06.920 And sure enough we get there and maybe an hour 2:39:07.000 --> 2:39:09.279 or so after the crowd arrives, there's like a thousand 2:39:09.400 --> 2:39:11.879 or so people and it's still a very young crowd. 2:39:11.920 --> 2:39:15.040 This is not mostly people who have been doing the 2:39:15.600 --> 2:39:17.800 protest thing in Portland for a long time. 2:39:18.000 --> 2:39:19.160 Like I saw a lot of. 2:39:19.120 --> 2:39:21.279 Girls who couldn't have been older than sixteen or seventeen 2:39:21.879 --> 2:39:25.120 out on Sunday and they gassed again. And I couldn't 2:39:25.120 --> 2:39:27.120 tell you. They were letting people like right up to 2:39:27.160 --> 2:39:30.000 the front of the Ice building, which they had gassed 2:39:30.040 --> 2:39:33.400 folks for throwing water bottles kind of near the day before. 2:39:33.440 --> 2:39:35.760 So there's never any consistency with these sort of things. 2:39:36.280 --> 2:39:38.520 And eventually they just decided to gas the shit out 2:39:38.560 --> 2:39:41.240 of everybody again to come and snatch people. And that's 2:39:41.320 --> 2:39:43.520 kind of the story is people in Portland are really 2:39:43.520 --> 2:39:46.760 pissed again because they gassed the big Lib march. All 2:39:46.800 --> 2:39:49.119 of the unions are really angry, all of the nurses 2:39:49.160 --> 2:39:52.000 are really angry, The city government's angry. The Mayor of Portland, 2:39:52.080 --> 2:39:53.840 Keith Wilson, made a statement that all of the I 2:39:54.000 --> 2:39:58.120 say should quit their jobs should resign. I don't know that. 2:39:58.200 --> 2:40:00.280 I think that they're actually going to kick I out 2:40:00.280 --> 2:40:02.960 of its building now. To be fair, I don't think 2:40:02.959 --> 2:40:05.160 that ICE is really getting much done in that building 2:40:05.280 --> 2:40:08.520 because it's locked down completely. They are using facilities up 2:40:08.560 --> 2:40:11.280 in Washington for the actual immigration stuff for the most part, 2:40:11.920 --> 2:40:16.400 so it's become I think it's largely a symbol. Yeah, 2:40:16.440 --> 2:40:20.160 a symbolic kind of dill. So we'll see. I don't 2:40:20.160 --> 2:40:23.480 know what's going to happen next, but yeah, that's the 2:40:23.600 --> 2:40:24.400 update from here. 2:40:24.920 --> 2:40:28.920 The tear gas air is spicy and bad for our. 2:40:28.760 --> 2:40:32.200 Health, yeah, I mean, it always bums me out to 2:40:32.240 --> 2:40:36.040 see really young people like kids get tear gased, especially 2:40:36.080 --> 2:40:40.640 like teenage girls. Because there's data, and not nearly as 2:40:40.680 --> 2:40:42.520 much as there should because the government really doesn't like 2:40:42.560 --> 2:40:47.920 studying this on how tear gas affects, particularly like reproductive health, 2:40:48.480 --> 2:40:51.879 and it's bad. There's evidence from places like Gaza that 2:40:51.959 --> 2:40:54.920 it can cause miscarriages. There's documentation and miscarriages and at 2:40:54.959 --> 2:40:57.120 least three different countries as a result of tear gas use, 2:40:57.120 --> 2:40:59.880 although again it's not the kind of documentation you'd want 2:40:59.920 --> 2:41:02.360 for a medical thing because you can't really isolate out 2:41:02.400 --> 2:41:04.560 other factors that may have been happening at the same time, 2:41:04.640 --> 2:41:09.360 because you're trying to figure out what this and other 2:41:09.440 --> 2:41:11.480 things are doing to people's bodies in a place like 2:41:11.520 --> 2:41:13.800 Gaza where you have no kind of like clinical control. 2:41:14.320 --> 2:41:17.039 But outside of that, there's evidence of missed periods that 2:41:17.120 --> 2:41:20.240 it can like delay or cause unusually painful periods. 2:41:20.080 --> 2:41:21.920 Send people into early menopause. 2:41:22.280 --> 2:41:22.600 Jeez. 2:41:22.959 --> 2:41:24.360 Yeah, there's some evidence for that. 2:41:24.640 --> 2:41:27.039 It's kind of a When I brought this up online, 2:41:27.080 --> 2:41:28.680 someone got very angry at me because they're like, well, 2:41:28.680 --> 2:41:32.520 it's not proven. I think there's enough data to tell people, 2:41:32.600 --> 2:41:35.360 especially if you've got a uterus wear a mask when 2:41:35.360 --> 2:41:36.200 you go protest. 2:41:36.600 --> 2:41:39.600 Yeah, I think also, how are we going to obtain 2:41:39.800 --> 2:41:40.959 proof in this scenario? 2:41:41.200 --> 2:41:41.400 Right? 2:41:41.560 --> 2:41:43.720 What are they going to do? Yeah, it's not very 2:41:43.760 --> 2:41:45.320 easy for us to do. We can't really do it 2:41:45.360 --> 2:41:46.800 just a double blind trial, right. 2:41:46.920 --> 2:41:47.120 Yeah. 2:41:47.480 --> 2:41:50.520 Somebody brought up like, if it was bad for reproductive health, 2:41:50.680 --> 2:41:52.440 then all of the women in the military, because you 2:41:52.480 --> 2:41:55.240 get tear gassed as part of military training, then that 2:41:55.280 --> 2:41:58.400 would have shown up before and it hasn't. And I 2:41:58.400 --> 2:42:02.480 immediately found in about three second it's the largest study 2:42:02.520 --> 2:42:04.680 done so far on the effect of tear gas that 2:42:04.720 --> 2:42:07.400 specifically noted. Yeah, they did some studies on here tear 2:42:07.400 --> 2:42:10.000 gas affects people in the sixties. They didn't look at women, 2:42:10.320 --> 2:42:13.440 weren't interested, they didn't care, not at. 2:42:13.320 --> 2:42:17.080 All a priority. Yeah, completely ignored it. Shocked, shocked to 2:42:17.120 --> 2:42:17.360 hear this. 2:42:18.280 --> 2:42:22.680 So anyway, just like we're a respirator, A half faced respirator, 2:42:23.400 --> 2:42:25.960 you know, is cheaper. I would recommend a full face 2:42:26.000 --> 2:42:29.279 because tear gas sucks on your eyes. They're not crazy expensive. 2:42:29.320 --> 2:42:31.120 You don't have to get a nice gas mask. Just 2:42:31.160 --> 2:42:33.440 get a respirator. It's better than nothing. 2:42:33.959 --> 2:42:36.519 Yeah, I like my respirator. 2:42:37.200 --> 2:42:37.440 Yep. 2:42:38.160 --> 2:42:40.920 So firstly, just a couple of small things that we 2:42:40.959 --> 2:42:44.360 wanted to note that we might come back to covering later. First, 2:42:44.400 --> 2:42:47.200 the US has now admitted that it had a small 2:42:47.200 --> 2:42:50.480 contingent of troops on the ground in Nigeria. I wrote 2:42:50.600 --> 2:42:54.200 on my newsletter about US drone strikes in Nigeria, what 2:42:54.240 --> 2:42:58.400 they're doing there and who they're targeting with those drone strikes, 2:42:58.440 --> 2:43:03.320 alongside the the long running issues with civilian casualties with 2:43:04.240 --> 2:43:06.520 airborne raids in Nigeria. On my news letters of people 2:43:06.520 --> 2:43:09.680 want to read that they can and secondly, I wanted 2:43:09.680 --> 2:43:12.680 to mention that Judge Anna Reyes has stated Secretary Nomes 2:43:12.720 --> 2:43:15.640 decision that would have rendered three hundred and fifty thousand 2:43:15.640 --> 2:43:18.400 Haitians without legal status when she was going to let 2:43:18.400 --> 2:43:23.400 the temporary protected status expire. I have explained TPS several 2:43:23.480 --> 2:43:26.959 times on ED and in my first Darien series, so 2:43:27.080 --> 2:43:28.760 I'm not going to go into detail about it here, 2:43:28.800 --> 2:43:30.200 but if you'd like to listen to those, you can 2:43:30.240 --> 2:43:31.160 find out more about it. 2:43:32.200 --> 2:43:36.040 Last thing before our first ad break, Bill and Hillary 2:43:36.080 --> 2:43:39.119 Clinton have agreed to testify before Congress is a part 2:43:39.160 --> 2:43:42.480 of the Epstein investigation. A vote to hold the Clintons 2:43:42.520 --> 2:43:45.800 and criminal contempt of Congress was scheduled for this week 2:43:46.080 --> 2:43:49.320 before they finally agreed to be deposed at two hearings 2:43:49.360 --> 2:43:52.320 in late February, and the Clintons have now called for 2:43:52.400 --> 2:43:57.400 these hearings to be public. This follows a slew of 2:43:57.480 --> 2:44:01.360 new Epstein documents that are released by the DOJ last week, 2:44:01.600 --> 2:44:03.960 which Robert You'll be you'll be covering on behind the 2:44:04.000 --> 2:44:04.920 Bastards soon. 2:44:05.120 --> 2:44:08.240 Yes, yes, we will be talking about the things revealed 2:44:08.240 --> 2:44:10.760 in the new Epstein file releases. The three million or 2:44:10.760 --> 2:44:13.520 so documents that just came out. Yes, we'll be talking 2:44:13.520 --> 2:44:15.560 about that on Behind the Bastards. 2:44:15.320 --> 2:44:16.840 Not next week but the week after. 2:44:17.240 --> 2:44:19.680 Yeah, probably like the week after something like that. There's 2:44:19.720 --> 2:44:21.400 a lot of good stuff in there, a lot of 2:44:21.440 --> 2:44:25.200 Brock Pierce in this set of releases. If you've been 2:44:25.280 --> 2:44:28.280 curious as to what the guy who invented tether, the 2:44:28.320 --> 2:44:34.720 cryptocurrency tether, was up to, with Jeffrey Epstein as a spoiler, 2:44:35.040 --> 2:44:41.200 it was molesting people, Jesus Christ. Yeah, well allegedly, we 2:44:41.240 --> 2:44:43.400 don't know. We don't know that it was molesting. They 2:44:43.400 --> 2:44:47.000 were described as girls, repeatedly described as girls in the 2:44:47.040 --> 2:44:51.920 emails between Brock Pierce, the Mighty Ducks guy, and Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, 2:44:51.959 --> 2:44:55.040 but that could mean anything, you know, that could mean anything. 2:44:55.120 --> 2:44:57.920 You'd be talking about the Elon Mosk emails in there. 2:44:58.400 --> 2:45:02.160 There's some Elon stuff in there. It's nothing definitive. The 2:45:02.200 --> 2:45:04.480 downside of it is Elon has a leg to stand 2:45:04.480 --> 2:45:06.360 on when he's like I never went to the island 2:45:07.040 --> 2:45:10.160 that said. You can interpret the emails one of two ways. 2:45:10.160 --> 2:45:12.840 Because I saw an Elon Musk fans, I'd be like, see, 2:45:13.200 --> 2:45:15.440 he was clearly just trying to blow him off. That's 2:45:15.440 --> 2:45:18.360 not how I interpret Elon's emails to Epstein. I think 2:45:18.400 --> 2:45:20.400 he really wanted to go to that fuck island. 2:45:21.840 --> 2:45:24.080 What night will the wildest posse be or something? 2:45:24.160 --> 2:45:25.200 Yeah, he was like I want to know where that 2:45:25.320 --> 2:45:28.160 But he was also talking about like the whole island 2:45:28.280 --> 2:45:31.520 area right, like where the wildest parties are that he wanted, 2:45:31.959 --> 2:45:35.959 So he does have some plausible deniability, But he was 2:45:36.080 --> 2:45:38.800 lying about not being in touch with Epstein and also 2:45:39.720 --> 2:45:44.640 JK Rowling in touch with Epstein. Oh shit, save yes, 2:45:44.720 --> 2:45:49.080 saved him seats for the opening of her play. Oh 2:45:49.120 --> 2:45:52.760 of the Harry Potter play on Broadway, got Jeffrey Epstein 2:45:52.840 --> 2:45:53.320 a seat. 2:45:54.360 --> 2:45:56.199 God, just when you thaw she gonna be a worse 2:45:56.280 --> 2:45:57.080 fucking person. 2:45:57.120 --> 2:45:57.720 Incredible. 2:45:58.160 --> 2:46:01.280 Yeah, what ad What a disgrace to national Yeah, I 2:46:01.280 --> 2:46:04.119 mean we have lots of those, I guess, but yeah. 2:46:03.920 --> 2:46:07.199 I can't believe this one person has ruined the reputation 2:46:07.360 --> 2:46:08.760 of Britain, the. 2:46:08.840 --> 2:46:12.359 United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, previously unblemished 2:46:12.400 --> 2:46:16.160 in santis of history Jesus Christ till the tough Wizard 2:46:16.200 --> 2:46:20.640 Lady came alone. Yeah, the first bed English person anyway. 2:46:20.879 --> 2:46:25.359 So yeah, on February twenty sixth, Hillary will be testifying 2:46:25.360 --> 2:46:28.440 and on the twenty seventh Bill will be testifying in 2:46:28.800 --> 2:46:32.039 hearings that should be televised live to the public. 2:46:32.560 --> 2:46:49.120 Interesting, okay, let's go on, brit all right, we're back, 2:46:49.160 --> 2:46:51.960 and I have a fantastic news. Look what I found. 2:46:52.360 --> 2:46:54.879 Look what I found, you guys, deep in my archives 2:46:54.879 --> 2:46:55.560 of misery. 2:46:55.920 --> 2:46:59.280 Luckily, podcasting is a visual medium. 2:47:00.040 --> 2:47:01.560 Oh no, it's audio. 2:47:02.200 --> 2:47:03.680 Okay, what are we imagine? 2:47:04.400 --> 2:47:14.360 Oh god, all right, I think I think we get 2:47:14.640 --> 2:47:16.280 forgot you. 2:47:16.360 --> 2:47:16.760 Wow? 2:47:16.879 --> 2:47:17.800 Do we need anymore? 2:47:18.360 --> 2:47:18.560 No? 2:47:20.040 --> 2:47:20.600 No, we don't. 2:47:20.840 --> 2:47:23.080 Okay, all right, sorry? 2:47:23.680 --> 2:47:24.360 Oh god. 2:47:24.680 --> 2:47:26.440 The fact that video is playing on the background of 2:47:26.440 --> 2:47:28.320 a large police badge. 2:47:28.720 --> 2:47:31.879 We're voting Donald Trump baby so. 2:47:32.000 --> 2:47:35.920 Bad, so bad. I cannot tell you how disappointed I 2:47:35.959 --> 2:47:38.280 am that I will not be hearing them perform on 2:47:38.360 --> 2:47:42.200 Super Bowl Sunday. You can see just the disappointment in 2:47:42.240 --> 2:47:43.040 my face right now. 2:47:43.520 --> 2:47:43.800 M M. 2:47:44.720 --> 2:47:49.360 This Wednesday morning, February fourth, Tom Homan announced that they're 2:47:49.360 --> 2:47:54.520 pulling seven hundred federal agents out of Minneapolis, though two 2:47:54.560 --> 2:47:57.119 thousand will remain in this city. 2:47:57.400 --> 2:47:59.600 That's so many agents. 2:48:00.240 --> 2:48:01.840 Yeah, that's so that much. 2:48:02.480 --> 2:48:05.480 Seven hundred sounded like there's. 2:48:05.240 --> 2:48:07.600 Still a lot of ICE and Border patrol on the ground. 2:48:07.760 --> 2:48:13.240 Wow, two thousand was a search that they did earlier 2:48:13.360 --> 2:48:16.000 this year. That that was when they really kind of 2:48:16.000 --> 2:48:18.680 flooded it with ICE agents. So two thousand is still 2:48:19.160 --> 2:48:21.080 two thousands is still a massive amount of ICE is 2:48:21.160 --> 2:48:24.120 overall capacity that these aren't all ICE agents, right, like 2:48:24.160 --> 2:48:27.480 they deputize atf and marshals and other things. 2:48:27.560 --> 2:48:29.480 But a lot of Border patrol guys here. 2:48:29.680 --> 2:48:32.160 Yeah, I don't know if that's who the seven hundred 2:48:32.160 --> 2:48:33.600 who there was drawing are. 2:48:34.040 --> 2:48:36.320 It's a mix, it's not. I don't think they're from 2:48:36.360 --> 2:48:37.120 just one agency. 2:48:37.760 --> 2:48:39.520 Okay, Yeah, there are a lot of Border patrol you 2:48:39.520 --> 2:48:42.160 see that a lot, right, Like, the border patrol agents 2:48:42.200 --> 2:48:45.360 clearly love this, right, They're they're getting per DM, they're 2:48:45.360 --> 2:48:49.440 getting travel pay, they make more money than they do 2:48:49.440 --> 2:48:52.199 in the border, and they don't have to like drive 2:48:52.240 --> 2:48:54.840 around in the middle of nowhere. They call it going 2:48:54.840 --> 2:48:59.400 on Safari. Homan has cited an increase in cooperation by 2:48:59.400 --> 2:49:03.560 Minnesota authorities. He was talking about handing over detained people 2:49:03.600 --> 2:49:06.720 who would be deportable, I think, but I have not 2:49:06.879 --> 2:49:11.360 seen a similar statement from state authorities in Minnesota, at 2:49:11.400 --> 2:49:13.960 least at a time so like take that with a 2:49:14.000 --> 2:49:15.920 pinch of salt. Right, A lot of what we see 2:49:15.920 --> 2:49:18.120 coming out of drum DHS just straight up isn't true. 2:49:18.320 --> 2:49:22.560 They have been talking about trying to like increase the 2:49:22.600 --> 2:49:27.000 cooperation with ICE detainers in the local prisons and jails. 2:49:27.320 --> 2:49:30.560 Yeah, and I think that would be what this cooperation 2:49:30.600 --> 2:49:32.920 would be. It would be like either cooperating with ICE 2:49:32.959 --> 2:49:36.560 detainers or even alerting ICE if they thought someone was deportable. 2:49:37.240 --> 2:49:39.680 An interesting thing of note, as well as earlier this week, 2:49:40.120 --> 2:49:44.520 the military troops that were placed on standby have been 2:49:45.400 --> 2:49:50.800 unplaced on standby, So not looking like those guys in 2:49:50.840 --> 2:49:55.240 Alaska or North Carolina will be deploying to Minneapolis. In 2:49:55.320 --> 2:49:59.920 some other Minneapolis related news, Don Lemon, front of the Park, 2:50:00.440 --> 2:50:06.120 was arrested Thursday, January twenty nine, and now faces civil 2:50:06.200 --> 2:50:09.920 rights charges for allegedly violating Face Act, which prohibits interfering 2:50:09.920 --> 2:50:13.120 with reproductive health services or people exercising religious freedom at 2:50:13.160 --> 2:50:16.880 a place of worship. On January eighteenth, Lemon reported on 2:50:16.920 --> 2:50:19.520 a protest at City's church in Saint Paul, where one 2:50:19.560 --> 2:50:21.800 of the pastors is also the head of the local 2:50:21.840 --> 2:50:25.320 ICE field office. A magistrate, judge and an appeals court 2:50:25.360 --> 2:50:29.120 previously dismissed the charges against Lemon before the case was 2:50:29.160 --> 2:50:32.560 brought before a grand jury in Minnesota. Six activists and 2:50:32.560 --> 2:50:36.680 one other journalists are also facing charges. We reported on 2:50:36.720 --> 2:50:41.000 this protest after it happened, and yeah, the DOJ has 2:50:41.000 --> 2:50:44.240 been trying to pin pin Lemon on this for the 2:50:44.280 --> 2:50:47.600 past few weeks. Yeah, probably not a great sign just 2:50:47.720 --> 2:50:50.640 for you know, general general first Amendment activity. 2:50:50.879 --> 2:50:53.640 No, no, that's a pretty pretty bleak side actually. 2:50:53.600 --> 2:50:56.280 As frustrating as as it is to start waiving the 2:50:56.400 --> 2:51:00.440 Jimmy Kimmel Don Lemon flag. You know that, that is 2:51:00.480 --> 2:51:01.360 the situation we're in. 2:51:01.760 --> 2:51:04.800 Yeah, it's not good. The journalists they arrested was the 2:51:04.959 --> 2:51:06.800 head of the National Association of Black Journalists. 2:51:06.800 --> 2:51:07.160 What's' she? 2:51:07.840 --> 2:51:11.520 Georgia fort is her name? Yes, yes, I do want 2:51:11.560 --> 2:51:15.000 to say actually that like when we talk about protections 2:51:15.000 --> 2:51:18.320 for journalists, like journalists, yes, can often be the people 2:51:18.320 --> 2:51:22.080 who were first targeted for like things that violate freedom 2:51:22.120 --> 2:51:24.199 of speech. Right, Like when governments are going to violate 2:51:24.240 --> 2:51:26.160 freedom of speech, they can go after journalists first. But 2:51:26.280 --> 2:51:31.720 like when someone is recording ice operations, they are doing 2:51:31.800 --> 2:51:35.680 citizen journalism, they are protected by exactly the same rights 2:51:35.680 --> 2:51:37.360 that we have as journalists who are doing this as 2:51:37.360 --> 2:51:39.520 our full time job. There isn't a special first Amendment 2:51:39.560 --> 2:51:41.480 for us. And so when the border patrol agents killed 2:51:41.480 --> 2:51:44.400 Alex Pretty, they killed someone who is at that time 2:51:44.440 --> 2:51:48.440 engaged to journalism too. And like, I'm happy to see 2:51:49.560 --> 2:51:54.120 journalistic bodies standing up, not just for people who employed 2:51:54.160 --> 2:51:56.119 this full time journalists have put all of our rights 2:51:56.160 --> 2:51:57.279 to document and record. 2:51:57.640 --> 2:52:00.280 Yeah, all of the legal observers who are film ICE 2:52:00.320 --> 2:52:03.800 as well that are being targeted with intimidation, being pulled over. 2:52:04.080 --> 2:52:05.320 Having guns pointed at them, etc. 2:52:05.840 --> 2:52:06.240 Yeah. 2:52:06.360 --> 2:52:09.880 Do you want to talk about the Senate funding for ICE? Oh? 2:52:10.040 --> 2:52:10.320 Do I? 2:52:10.920 --> 2:52:14.680 So the partial government shut down, which did start last 2:52:14.680 --> 2:52:18.800 week was ended on Tuesday after the DJs bill was 2:52:18.879 --> 2:52:21.640 stripped out of the now one point two trillion dollar 2:52:21.760 --> 2:52:26.720 annual funding package. DHS's funding will lapse on Friday the thirteenth, 2:52:27.160 --> 2:52:28.520 and negotiation. 2:52:33.640 --> 2:52:34.040 Why not. 2:52:35.600 --> 2:52:41.040 While negotiations continue on a DHS funding bill, Congressional Democrats 2:52:41.040 --> 2:52:44.000 are pushing for agency reforms like judicial warrants and no 2:52:44.120 --> 2:52:48.959 masked agents, while Republicans are signaling minor concessions like having 2:52:48.959 --> 2:52:52.320 a border patrol and ICE wear body cameras Yeah. 2:52:52.120 --> 2:52:54.359 Should we talk a little bit more about body cameras. 2:52:54.760 --> 2:52:57.160 You know what, my favorite topic. Let's talk about body 2:52:57.200 --> 2:52:57.800 cameras again. 2:52:58.560 --> 2:53:01.440 I love to talk about a body worn camera. 2:53:01.840 --> 2:53:03.000 Time was a flat circle. 2:53:03.320 --> 2:53:08.760 Yeah, okay, So Christie Nome this week announced that ICE 2:53:08.879 --> 2:53:12.120 agents in Minnesota were going to where body worn cameras 2:53:12.160 --> 2:53:14.720 going forward. And I've been kind of disappointed a lot 2:53:14.760 --> 2:53:18.240 of the reporting on this. What is I think missing 2:53:18.320 --> 2:53:19.680 is that that, like, there was a twenty twenty two 2:53:19.720 --> 2:53:23.320 executive order right signed by Biden the ordered federal law 2:53:23.360 --> 2:53:27.440 enforcement to use body worn cameras. Funding for them was 2:53:27.600 --> 2:53:30.199 included in the twenty twenty one for SCOOL year appropriations built. 2:53:30.879 --> 2:53:33.720 Nome has said they will grow the program as funds 2:53:33.720 --> 2:53:37.080 become available, but those funds have been available for some time. 2:53:37.320 --> 2:53:40.920 Right In twenty twenty four document ICE document that talked 2:53:40.920 --> 2:53:44.840 about their pilot program study, they said, quote full implementation 2:53:44.920 --> 2:53:48.600 is expected by September thirtieth, twenty twenty five. Eagle eared 2:53:48.640 --> 2:53:51.600 listers will notice that it's in the past. However, in 2:53:51.680 --> 2:53:54.320 twenty twenty five, ICE began and rolling this back. They 2:53:54.360 --> 2:53:58.400 issued a directive which continued only implementing the body worn 2:53:58.400 --> 2:54:02.280 camera program in the certain pilot programs cities. The Trump administration, 2:54:02.320 --> 2:54:04.959 in its second term, has called Congress to cut funding 2:54:05.080 --> 2:54:08.640 for body worn cameras by seventy five percent and reduce 2:54:08.720 --> 2:54:11.320 the staffing of the body worn camera program from twenty 2:54:11.360 --> 2:54:15.600 two people to just three. They have also cut oversight 2:54:15.640 --> 2:54:19.959 offices within DHS like oh IDO. O IDEO is like 2:54:20.000 --> 2:54:22.360 the nichest level of DHS. Understand that when you know 2:54:22.400 --> 2:54:25.119 of o IDEO, I think Biden created it. I actually 2:54:25.120 --> 2:54:28.560 I've seen them once. It's the Office of the Immigration 2:54:28.680 --> 2:54:34.400 Detention ombardsmen. They came to the outdoor detention sites in 2:54:34.440 --> 2:54:37.640 hercumber which seems to be something of a concession that 2:54:37.760 --> 2:54:39.920 by the administration at the time denied people were detained 2:54:39.959 --> 2:54:43.160 in those sites. It had one hundred plus employees at 2:54:43.200 --> 2:54:45.960 start of the Trump administration. It also has three now 2:54:46.160 --> 2:54:49.680 according to Reuters. This most recent bill, as Garrison said, 2:54:49.720 --> 2:54:53.000 does include funding and a mandate for their use. A 2:54:53.040 --> 2:54:56.360 federal judge in Chicago had already ordered agents there to 2:54:56.400 --> 2:54:59.400 wear cameras in November of last year. I should note 2:54:59.440 --> 2:55:01.440 that I also looked up the ice body warm camera 2:55:01.520 --> 2:55:04.960 policy and theoretically now in so far of any of 2:55:05.000 --> 2:55:07.640 these policies are being followed right, prohibits them for using 2:55:07.680 --> 2:55:11.000 body warm cameras for the quote sole purpose of recording 2:55:11.040 --> 2:55:14.680 people engaged in First Amendment protected activities. So they can 2:55:14.760 --> 2:55:16.920 just use their phones for that. I guess that's what 2:55:16.959 --> 2:55:17.600 they've been doing. 2:55:18.240 --> 2:55:21.000 I mean, yeah, this is like part of the frustration 2:55:21.240 --> 2:55:23.720 around this bill is you do have humor pushing for 2:55:23.800 --> 2:55:26.600 certain things like like not wearing masks and not doing 2:55:26.640 --> 2:55:29.280 the rolling raids. Will also emphasizing you know, you want 2:55:29.280 --> 2:55:32.000 the masks off and the cameras on, as if that's 2:55:32.040 --> 2:55:35.279 going to affect the behavior of agents on the ground. Meanwhile, 2:55:35.920 --> 2:55:39.560 during the killing of Renee Good, the officer that shot 2:55:39.600 --> 2:55:42.840 and killed her was filming the whole thing on his phone. 2:55:42.959 --> 2:55:47.879 He was filming on his own cell phone, so obvious. Obviously. Yeah, 2:55:47.920 --> 2:55:51.560 having a camera on the agent is not going to 2:55:51.560 --> 2:55:53.480 prevent them from killing someone. 2:55:53.240 --> 2:55:56.039 Because they think it's good what they're doing. Yeah, they 2:55:56.040 --> 2:55:57.000 don't think it's bad. 2:55:57.760 --> 2:56:01.400 You have to understand that agents who shot Alex pretty 2:56:01.440 --> 2:56:05.680 actually had body worn cameras and they're actually CBP agents. 2:56:05.720 --> 2:56:10.039 So CBP or BP, I should say, right, customs are Border. 2:56:09.760 --> 2:56:12.520 Protection, one of them is CPP. One of them's PP. 2:56:12.720 --> 2:56:16.440 That's correct. Yeah, that's they're they're both CBP agents, but 2:56:16.560 --> 2:56:20.720 within CBP you have BP and OFO. Okay, they get 2:56:20.720 --> 2:56:23.680 really mad if you get this wrong. Literally, I've got 2:56:23.680 --> 2:56:25.680 an email once for a subject line. Come on, man. 2:56:26.760 --> 2:56:31.359 So they were both Customs and Border Protection agents generally 2:56:31.520 --> 2:56:34.520 border patrol. Border Patrol is part of Customs and Border Protection, 2:56:34.600 --> 2:56:36.440 right the other part of the Office of Field Operations. 2:56:36.720 --> 2:56:39.400 Border Patrol ceased using their cameras early in the Trump administration, 2:56:39.600 --> 2:56:42.960 citing an issue with the bluetooth used by the cameras 2:56:42.959 --> 2:56:46.040 that could make them detectable. This is a thing that 2:56:46.240 --> 2:56:50.840 can happen. It is possible. There's a GitHub script for this. 2:56:51.480 --> 2:56:54.880 Whether they're justifiers stopping using them is an entirely different question. 2:56:55.480 --> 2:56:58.680 Both the agents in the pretty shooting were wearing body 2:56:58.720 --> 2:57:01.520 can but we have not seen footage. The two agents 2:57:01.520 --> 2:57:05.120 have been identified by Pro Publica as Border Patrol agent 2:57:05.879 --> 2:57:09.960 Jizus jesse Or Choa and Customs and Border Protection Officer 2:57:10.000 --> 2:57:14.600 Field Operations Officer Raimundo Gutierrez. A Choa joined twenty eighteen. 2:57:14.640 --> 2:57:18.920 Gutierrez joined in twenty fourteen. Gutierrez is part of the 2:57:19.680 --> 2:57:23.959 Officer Field Operations Special Response team that is generally a 2:57:24.000 --> 2:57:27.720 team with training in weapons and tactics who would serve 2:57:27.800 --> 2:57:30.400 high risk warrants do raids. 2:57:30.560 --> 2:57:31.720 I guess swat style. 2:57:32.280 --> 2:57:34.560 Yeah, it's another word for swat. I think because what 2:57:34.720 --> 2:57:37.600 became somewhat you know, they decided they wanted a different 2:57:37.600 --> 2:57:40.280 word for it. Sure, pro Publica I got an interview 2:57:40.320 --> 2:57:42.680 with the choa's ex wife who said, quote, by the 2:57:42.680 --> 2:57:44.440 time the couple split in twenty twenty one, he had 2:57:44.520 --> 2:57:47.680 become a gun enthusiast, with about twenty five rifles, pistols 2:57:47.680 --> 2:57:51.000 and shotguns. In so much as that matters, I guess 2:57:51.480 --> 2:57:53.680 that was the only interview they could get about them. 2:57:54.000 --> 2:57:56.560 Both of the men are from South Texas. 2:57:57.560 --> 2:58:01.240 To circle back to the funding bill for DHS and 2:58:01.280 --> 2:58:04.080 these potential reforms being pushed for at you know, multiple 2:58:04.160 --> 2:58:06.640 levels of the Democratic establishment, you know, with Schumer being 2:58:06.640 --> 2:58:10.080 a little bit lighter and obviously people like AOC and 2:58:10.200 --> 2:58:15.360 to leave pushing for more extreme measures like abolishing the 2:58:15.400 --> 2:58:19.560 agency advice, which is unlikely to happen in this funding 2:58:19.600 --> 2:58:23.000 bill as the Republicans control Congress. But still there is 2:58:23.000 --> 2:58:25.920 a spectrum of beliefs among the party at the moment. 2:58:26.280 --> 2:58:29.480 And to get a look at what average regular registered 2:58:29.520 --> 2:58:32.360 Democrats believe. There's a new poll from you gov that 2:58:32.480 --> 2:58:36.760 came out this week based on data from late January 2:58:36.840 --> 2:58:42.320 early February that have seventy nine percent of Democrats saying 2:58:42.360 --> 2:58:46.760 they support abolishing ICE. Abolishing ICE is also up eight 2:58:46.800 --> 2:58:51.440 points with Independence and more people overall support abolishing ICE 2:58:51.879 --> 2:58:55.959 at forty six percent to forty four percent opposing. 2:58:56.920 --> 2:58:59.200 So, just to finish up on our immigration coveray to 2:58:59.280 --> 2:59:02.000 the week, we also saw Judge Cobb with the DC 2:59:02.200 --> 2:59:05.760 District Court grant a tentative restraining order that prevents DHS 2:59:05.760 --> 2:59:09.200 from denying Congress people the right to inspect immigration attention 2:59:09.320 --> 2:59:13.920 facilities without notice. Previously, DHS had been asserting that they 2:59:14.000 --> 2:59:16.240 had a seven day period of notice that they had 2:59:16.240 --> 2:59:19.480 to give before they could inspect attention facilities. The judges 2:59:19.480 --> 2:59:24.199 found that that's not justified. Another eight attorneys have left 2:59:24.480 --> 2:59:28.000 or announced intentions to leave the US Attorney's office in Minnesota. 2:59:28.640 --> 2:59:31.320 They are now operating at less than half the capacity 2:59:31.600 --> 2:59:34.840 of assistant USA attorneys that they had in the early 2:59:34.879 --> 2:59:38.480 Biden administration. They've also lost several non attorney staff, and 2:59:38.560 --> 2:59:40.840 the Star Tribune reports that this is due to concerns 2:59:40.879 --> 2:59:44.240 about selective prosecution. And the exclusion of state and local 2:59:44.240 --> 2:59:48.080 investigators from the good and pretty cases. In court yesterday, 2:59:48.280 --> 2:59:51.120 one federal prosecutor said, and I'm quoting from the transcript here, 2:59:51.280 --> 2:59:55.600 this system sucks. This job sucks. Another quotation. I am 2:59:55.680 --> 2:59:58.080 here just trying to make sure that the agency understand 2:59:58.120 --> 3:00:00.320 how important it is to comply with all the court orders, 3:00:00.600 --> 3:00:02.800 which they have not done in the past or currently. 3:00:03.400 --> 3:00:05.800 I'm here as a bridge and a liaison between the 3:00:05.800 --> 3:00:08.640 one that in jail, because if I walk out sometimes 3:00:08.680 --> 3:00:10.680 I wish you would just hold me in contempt your honor, 3:00:10.879 --> 3:00:12.720 so that they could have a full twenty four hours 3:00:12.720 --> 3:00:16.760 of sleep. Yikes, it's just a person on the ragged edge. Yeah, 3:00:17.200 --> 3:00:19.879 that is someone who is breaking. Yeah. 3:00:20.000 --> 3:00:20.480 I mean. 3:00:22.160 --> 3:00:26.040 You could look up her caseload and it is legitimately insane. Yeah, 3:00:26.280 --> 3:00:28.720 and it has only got bigger since the start of 3:00:28.720 --> 3:00:31.240 the year. You can see why people are are quitting 3:00:31.240 --> 3:00:33.440 this job, even if they like don't have a moral 3:00:34.040 --> 3:00:36.880 issue with it, because it's an inhumane amount of work. 3:00:37.080 --> 3:00:39.320 And again, like, I'm not coming at this from a 3:00:39.320 --> 3:00:41.760 point of a lot of sympathy, but it's not funny. 3:00:42.000 --> 3:00:45.080 Yeah, yeah, it's funny. It's just funny. It's funny to 3:00:45.080 --> 3:00:47.560 see them so obviously frustrated that their agencies are just 3:00:47.600 --> 3:00:49.600 not complying with what they asked them do. That she 3:00:49.680 --> 3:00:51.520 I was reading the transcript today is judging the case. 3:00:51.640 --> 3:00:53.320 Was like, look, you can tell me the agencies are 3:00:53.320 --> 3:00:55.120 not complying, But like, if I have a problem in 3:00:55.120 --> 3:00:56.960 the restaurant, I don't walk in there and try and 3:00:57.000 --> 3:00:59.400 find the exact person who's baking the bread. I talk 3:00:59.480 --> 3:01:01.600 to the restauran, and the restaurant sorted out you are 3:01:01.640 --> 3:01:04.080 part of the executive branch. Yeah, this is on you. 3:01:04.480 --> 3:01:08.280 Like it was a good, little little core exchange. And 3:01:08.320 --> 3:01:11.120 then finally NBC has obtained a leaked email from Greg 3:01:11.160 --> 3:01:15.560 Bovino showing tensions between himself and Todd Lyons. Lions is 3:01:15.560 --> 3:01:18.600 the acting director of Immigration and custom to Enforcement. Lions 3:01:18.600 --> 3:01:22.080 attempted to prevent Baveno from engaging in widespread sweeps in 3:01:22.080 --> 3:01:24.600 which agents kind of ran around check papers on anyone 3:01:24.600 --> 3:01:27.000 they think might not be a citizen, and he encouraged 3:01:27.040 --> 3:01:31.160 him to do targeted operations instead. And then mister Bovino 3:01:31.240 --> 3:01:33.800 said in the email quote, mister Lyons said he was 3:01:33.800 --> 3:01:36.160 in charge, and I corrected him, saying, I report to 3:01:36.240 --> 3:01:41.879 Corey Lewandowski, Garrison has just made a face for those. 3:01:42.920 --> 3:01:44.960 Yeah, and if you want to hear more about our 3:01:45.000 --> 3:01:48.000 dear buddy, Greg, Robert and I recorded an episode with 3:01:48.080 --> 3:01:51.080 Jack O'Brien from Behind the Bastards that's dropping next Thursday. 3:01:51.200 --> 3:01:53.520 Oh, sick all about Greg Bavino. 3:01:55.320 --> 3:01:57.640 Greg's been on a bit of a tour on his 3:01:57.720 --> 3:01:58.880 way back to California. 3:01:59.000 --> 3:02:04.160 Yeah, he wrote, But he went to Mount Rushmore to 3:02:04.200 --> 3:02:06.840 record like a moto video and then he was spotted 3:02:06.879 --> 3:02:09.440 drinking a glass of red wine in Las Vegas. Yeah, 3:02:09.520 --> 3:02:11.320 it seems like they made him road trip. 3:02:11.200 --> 3:02:14.000 Like a weirdo who's drinking. You're drinking the house wine 3:02:14.000 --> 3:02:19.879 at a casino in Vegas. Come the fuck on, Greg Upreg, Yeah, 3:02:20.800 --> 3:02:22.320 have a fucking cocktail. 3:02:22.520 --> 3:02:26.080 Jesus Christ. I think he's back in Imperial now. But 3:02:26.840 --> 3:02:28.879 it was. It seems that they made him take a 3:02:28.920 --> 3:02:31.720 road trip home. They didn't fly him back, wouldn't spring 3:02:31.760 --> 3:02:34.520 for the plane trip. Yeah, he's quite. 3:02:34.360 --> 3:02:53.359 Remarkable, incredible, gestapo, unbelievable. All right, we are back. Last Wednesday, 3:02:53.520 --> 3:02:57.080 January twenty eighth, the FBI executed a raid on the 3:02:57.120 --> 3:03:00.800 Fulton County election office outside of Atlanta, Georgia as a 3:03:00.840 --> 3:03:04.000 part of an investigation into Trump's claim that the twenty 3:03:04.120 --> 3:03:08.000 twenty election was rigged against him. The special Agent in 3:03:08.120 --> 3:03:11.320 charge of the FBI Atlanta Field Office resigned a week 3:03:11.400 --> 3:03:14.640 before the warrant was served. This search warrant was signed 3:03:14.640 --> 3:03:17.760 by a United States Magistrate judge and instructed investigators to 3:03:17.840 --> 3:03:22.040 seize quote all records relating to violations of Title fifty 3:03:22.080 --> 3:03:26.760 two US Code two zero seven zero one and two 3:03:26.959 --> 3:03:32.000 oh five one one, with these violations occurring quote after 3:03:32.200 --> 3:03:37.760 October twelfth, twenty twenty unquote. The former statute here two 3:03:37.760 --> 3:03:41.560 seven one relates to retaining and preserving election records for 3:03:41.640 --> 3:03:46.279 twenty two months after an election, and the latter two 3:03:46.320 --> 3:03:50.439 five one one relates to voter fraud or threats, intimidation, 3:03:50.520 --> 3:03:55.400 and coersion against voters. The records that were to be 3:03:55.520 --> 3:03:58.760 seized are listed on the warrant as quote all physical 3:03:58.760 --> 3:04:01.840 ballots from the twenty twenty general election in Fulton County, 3:04:02.080 --> 3:04:05.879 all tabulator tapes for every voting machine, all ballot images 3:04:05.959 --> 3:04:09.040 produced during the original ballot count, All voter roles from 3:04:09.080 --> 3:04:12.279 the twenty twenty general election in Fulton County from absentee, 3:04:12.320 --> 3:04:16.200 early and in person voting and any electronically stored information 3:04:16.520 --> 3:04:21.400 relevant to those items above. The Fulton County Commissioner mount 3:04:21.480 --> 3:04:26.400 Ivory said that federal officials took seven hundred boxes of ballots, 3:04:27.040 --> 3:04:32.600 and curiously, Director of National Intelligence Tulci Gabbert appeared at 3:04:32.600 --> 3:04:34.920 the side of the search and had a phone call 3:04:35.000 --> 3:04:40.240 with Trump. After the raid concluded, Gabert sent a letter 3:04:40.320 --> 3:04:44.480 to Congress on Monday, claiming, quote, my presence was requested 3:04:44.480 --> 3:04:48.720 by the President and executed under my broad statutory authority 3:04:48.720 --> 3:04:53.080 to coordinate, integrate, and analyze intelligence relating to election security, 3:04:53.400 --> 3:04:59.000 including counter intelligence, foreign and other malign influences, and cybersecurity unquote. 3:04:59.280 --> 3:05:01.920 She also wrote on x the everything app quote the 3:05:02.000 --> 3:05:04.720 Office of the Director of National Intelligence has and will 3:05:04.720 --> 3:05:07.800 continue to take action under my statutory authorities to secure 3:05:07.800 --> 3:05:13.280 our nation ensure the integrity of our elections. I will 3:05:13.320 --> 3:05:17.800 include here that four days before January sixth, twenty twenty one, 3:05:18.520 --> 3:05:22.879 Trump told George's top election official to quote unquote find 3:05:23.240 --> 3:05:27.959 enough votes to overturn the election. Here's a recording of 3:05:28.000 --> 3:05:28.520 that phone call. 3:05:28.879 --> 3:05:31.200 All I want to do is this. I just want 3:05:31.200 --> 3:05:32.039 to find. 3:05:33.720 --> 3:05:38.080 Eleven thousand, seven hundred and eighty votes. 3:05:38.959 --> 3:05:42.280 The Trump administration has made multiple unsuccessful attempts to gain 3:05:42.320 --> 3:05:46.439 access to the twenty twenty Georgia ballots through civil suits. 3:05:47.080 --> 3:05:50.680 Now they have just turned to executing search warrant through 3:05:50.720 --> 3:05:54.360 the FBI. On February first, Mike Johnson was asked to 3:05:54.440 --> 3:05:58.320 vote potential election medaling in Georgia. Here is this exchange 3:05:58.560 --> 3:06:00.199 from NBC News. 3:06:00.440 --> 3:06:03.160 What do you say to that allegation that President Trump 3:06:03.600 --> 3:06:06.879 is going to meddle in the twenty twenty six midterm elections, 3:06:06.879 --> 3:06:08.320 that that's what he's doing in Georgia. 3:06:08.560 --> 3:06:11.120 I find it comical that one of the senators from 3:06:11.160 --> 3:06:14.800 Georgia is talking about schemes in elections. Remember, Georgia was 3:06:14.879 --> 3:06:17.920 example a of that. In the twenty twenty election. 3:06:18.360 --> 3:06:20.400 There were two statewide recounts in Georgia. 3:06:20.760 --> 3:06:22.600 They see the mail out balance to everyone. 3:06:22.720 --> 3:06:25.720 Everyone knows all of the problems that occurred in Georgia. 3:06:25.760 --> 3:06:28.640 It was very controversially and remains so to this day 3:06:28.760 --> 3:06:31.080 because of all the things that happened there. Again, we're 3:06:31.080 --> 3:06:32.760 not going to relitigate that. But what we have to 3:06:32.800 --> 3:06:35.680 focus on is going forward to ensure that there are 3:06:35.720 --> 3:06:38.920 not questions about the elections. And that's why Republicans are 3:06:38.959 --> 3:06:41.720 working at the federal and the state levels to clean 3:06:41.800 --> 3:06:43.720 those things up and clean up voter rolls to make 3:06:43.720 --> 3:06:45.960 sure illegals are not voting, for example. That's what the 3:06:46.000 --> 3:06:48.600 Save Act is about, and we have to continue that 3:06:48.680 --> 3:06:51.000 and the President is keeping a proper focus on it. 3:06:51.200 --> 3:06:54.160 This investigation is to ensure that all the questions that 3:06:54.920 --> 3:06:58.400 about the elections in Fulton County are investigated properly so 3:06:58.440 --> 3:07:00.280 that people have confidence in this system. 3:07:00.280 --> 3:07:01.320 A kah, that's very important. 3:07:01.320 --> 3:07:04.680 But there are really no questions about election in Tigry 3:07:04.720 --> 3:07:07.120 from twenty twenty that have not been asked and answered. 3:07:07.240 --> 3:07:11.920 Even the Republican note, the Republican led governor has pointed out, 3:07:12.160 --> 3:07:14.720 it's been years and no one has ever come forward 3:07:15.280 --> 3:07:17.680 under oath with evidence of fraud in Georgia. 3:07:17.760 --> 3:07:20.320 But let me ask you, pretty absurd stuff. 3:07:20.680 --> 3:07:23.360 Yeah, yeah, we're not going to relitigate it as we 3:07:23.400 --> 3:07:24.240 rel litigate it. 3:07:24.640 --> 3:07:27.520 Yeah yeah, and just giving no evidence, just being like, oh, 3:07:27.560 --> 3:07:29.680 it's very controversial, everyone knows, like. 3:07:30.360 --> 3:07:31.879 Such a weasly answer. 3:07:32.240 --> 3:07:32.959 Yeah. 3:07:33.080 --> 3:07:35.600 Republican Governor Brian Camp has been very clear that there 3:07:35.720 --> 3:07:39.760 was absolutely no fraud happening in Georgia during twenty twenty 3:07:39.920 --> 3:07:42.320 and if there was any attempt to meddle with the election. 3:07:42.760 --> 3:07:44.959 It is this phone call that Trump made to the 3:07:44.959 --> 3:07:48.200 Georgia Secretary of State, Yeah, asking to find a certain 3:07:48.280 --> 3:07:52.119 number of votes that itself should have resulted in Trump 3:07:52.160 --> 3:07:55.720 going to prison like South Korea style, like you're done, 3:07:55.840 --> 3:07:57.400 You're finished. You can't do that. 3:07:57.800 --> 3:08:01.160 Yeah, that is like the most transparent election interference. 3:08:01.840 --> 3:08:05.240 The way that Trump's court case in Fulton County related 3:08:05.280 --> 3:08:08.680 to his attempts to meddle into twenty twenty election is 3:08:08.840 --> 3:08:11.640 just a complete disaster due to coruption within the Fulton 3:08:11.640 --> 3:08:13.959 County courses tom itself. One of the worst things to 3:08:14.000 --> 3:08:16.880 happen during this like Biden era, is the mishandling of 3:08:16.920 --> 3:08:21.320 the court cases around Trump's attempts to overturn the election. Yeah, 3:08:21.440 --> 3:08:24.160 and especially like looking at at what South Cura did 3:08:24.400 --> 3:08:27.360 after their president tried to take over the country a 3:08:27.440 --> 3:08:30.160 year or two ago, is like, oh, yeah, that's very 3:08:30.160 --> 3:08:31.720 clearly what we should have done with this guy. 3:08:31.840 --> 3:08:33.480 Yeah, people could have done better. 3:08:33.879 --> 3:08:36.840 And Mike Johnson just keeps making really concerning statements on 3:08:36.920 --> 3:08:41.039 the news about quote unquote nationalizing elections. 3:08:41.160 --> 3:08:42.400 I follow up on elections. 3:08:42.440 --> 3:08:44.920 The president says that he wants Republicans. 3:08:44.320 --> 3:08:45.920 To nationalize elections. 3:08:45.959 --> 3:08:48.200 Do you agree with him and do you have confidence 3:08:48.600 --> 3:08:50.160 in how elections are conducted? 3:08:50.240 --> 3:08:51.920 Right now heading into the midterm. 3:08:52.240 --> 3:08:55.879 We have thoughtfuled debate about our election system every election cycle, 3:08:55.920 --> 3:08:58.039 and sometimes in between. We know it's in our system. 3:08:58.080 --> 3:08:59.680 The states have been in charge of a minister in 3:08:59.720 --> 3:09:02.000 their life elections. What you're hearing from the President is 3:09:02.000 --> 3:09:05.480 his frustration about the lack of some of the Blue states, frankly, 3:09:06.320 --> 3:09:07.680 of enforcing these things. 3:09:07.959 --> 3:09:12.439 Make Johnson goes on to discuss possible fraud in California specifically, 3:09:13.000 --> 3:09:16.480 though admits that he has no evidence of said fraud. 3:09:16.680 --> 3:09:17.400 One more clip. 3:09:17.760 --> 3:09:19.880 In some of the states, like in California, for example, 3:09:20.040 --> 3:09:22.360 I mean, they hold the elections open for weeks after 3:09:22.400 --> 3:09:25.480 election day. That's just one thing that bothers so many people. 3:09:25.959 --> 3:09:28.560 We had three House Republican candidates who are ahead on 3:09:28.640 --> 3:09:31.760 election day in the last election cycle, and every time 3:09:31.800 --> 3:09:34.359 a new tranche of ballots came in, they just magically 3:09:34.400 --> 3:09:35.920 whittled away until their. 3:09:35.879 --> 3:09:36.720 Leads were lost. 3:09:36.840 --> 3:09:40.400 And no series of ballots that were counted after election 3:09:40.520 --> 3:09:44.120 day were our candidates ahead on any of those counts. 3:09:43.959 --> 3:09:47.400 It looks on its face to be fraudulent. Can I 3:09:47.400 --> 3:09:49.800 prove that, No, because it happened so far upstream. But 3:09:50.080 --> 3:09:53.640 we need more confidence in the American people in the 3:09:53.680 --> 3:09:55.280 election system. 3:09:55.280 --> 3:09:55.800 Absurd. 3:09:56.200 --> 3:09:58.520 Yeah, completely, bonks, sir. 3:09:58.720 --> 3:10:02.280 I fear that more ballots have been counted and results 3:10:02.320 --> 3:10:03.000 have changed. 3:10:03.200 --> 3:10:04.560 Yeah, that's what elections are. 3:10:05.160 --> 3:10:09.000 You cannot place a vote in California after election day. No, 3:10:09.120 --> 3:10:11.360 but they do count mail in ballots that have been 3:10:11.400 --> 3:10:14.840 postmarked on or before election day, which is what he's referencing. 3:10:14.879 --> 3:10:18.120 But he's yeah, miss, he's purposely misconstruting it to make 3:10:18.160 --> 3:10:21.200 it sound way more, way more nefarious than what it 3:10:21.200 --> 3:10:23.640 actually is. If you've placed a mail in vote on 3:10:23.760 --> 3:10:26.480 or before election day in California, that vote will be counted. 3:10:27.040 --> 3:10:27.400 That is. 3:10:27.560 --> 3:10:30.720 That is how the elections in California work. Not this 3:10:31.040 --> 3:10:35.320 magically keeping keeping the election open for for weeks afterwards 3:10:35.320 --> 3:10:37.800 people can continue to vote. That's that's not that's not true. 3:10:38.440 --> 3:10:41.520 It's giving like a very specific sports reference where that 3:10:41.600 --> 3:10:42.879 the announcers like and the. 3:10:42.840 --> 3:10:48.280 Team with the most points won the game. That's literally 3:10:48.360 --> 3:10:48.920 what he's doing. 3:10:48.959 --> 3:10:54.960 He's like, as as the votes were counted, the results changed. 3:10:54.560 --> 3:10:57.240 They changed and someone won. Who is not what I 3:10:57.320 --> 3:10:58.240 wanted to happen. 3:10:58.480 --> 3:11:00.400 Uh, yeah, shock, horror. 3:11:00.760 --> 3:11:02.680 Can I prove there's fraud? No, but well I continue 3:11:02.720 --> 3:11:05.560 to say there's fraud, yes, Mike Johnson. 3:11:06.160 --> 3:11:08.880 It had been reported that they were trying to leverage 3:11:09.280 --> 3:11:13.800 the ice raids in Minnesota against getting electoral role information 3:11:13.920 --> 3:11:16.720 from Minnesota as well. Yes, so like this is this 3:11:16.760 --> 3:11:21.960 is not just his fascination with with Georgia. Like this 3:11:22.040 --> 3:11:24.520 is all deeply concerning as we go into like midterm year. 3:11:24.640 --> 3:11:26.840 But we will find out soon. 3:11:26.920 --> 3:11:29.880 Oh yeah, especially as Congress is the entity that is 3:11:30.000 --> 3:11:31.760 supposed to be there to help to ensure that states 3:11:31.840 --> 3:11:33.640 run the elections fairly and that we do not have 3:11:33.680 --> 3:11:35.040 a nationalized voting system. 3:11:35.160 --> 3:11:35.560 Yeah. 3:11:35.600 --> 3:11:37.680 And the fact that the Speaker of the House seems 3:11:37.680 --> 3:11:42.920 to be unaware siding siding with the executive branch with 3:11:43.040 --> 3:11:46.080 this idea of nationalizing elections or at least trying to 3:11:46.120 --> 3:11:51.000 like manufacture consent for Trump's Trump's claim there very very worrying. 3:11:52.800 --> 3:11:56.080 I now want to update a story we talked about 3:11:56.680 --> 3:12:00.040 almost a year ago, based on some new information that 3:12:00.080 --> 3:12:04.920 has come out. In January, a judge has unsealed a 3:12:05.080 --> 3:12:10.120 State Department memo from March twenty twenty five that confirms 3:12:10.600 --> 3:12:14.680 that Ramesa Osturk's visa was revoked and the government sought 3:12:14.680 --> 3:12:18.560 to deport her on the basis of oz Turk co 3:12:18.680 --> 3:12:24.080 authoring an op ed in the student newspaper at Tufts University. 3:12:24.480 --> 3:12:28.120 This memo admits that DHS could not provide any evidence 3:12:28.160 --> 3:12:31.760 that oz Turk ever engaged in any eighties Semitic activity, 3:12:32.320 --> 3:12:36.440 was involved in Students for Justice in Palestine, or has 3:12:36.480 --> 3:12:40.680 ever expressed support for terrorism as claimed by government officials. 3:12:40.800 --> 3:12:45.520 Last year, Churchill McLoughlin told CNN at the time of 3:12:45.560 --> 3:12:49.240 oz Turk's arrest that DHS and ICE investigations had found 3:12:49.280 --> 3:12:53.240 that oz Turk had quote engaged in activities in support 3:12:53.280 --> 3:12:57.040 of hamas, a foreign terrorist organization that relishes the killing 3:12:57.040 --> 3:13:01.560 of Americans unquote. On the contrary, this newly unsealed memo 3:13:01.680 --> 3:13:04.880 from the State Department reads, quote, while os Turk has 3:13:05.040 --> 3:13:09.800 been involved with actions protesting Tuft's relationship with Israel, DHS, 3:13:09.840 --> 3:13:13.840 ICE or Homeland Security investigations has not, however, provided any 3:13:13.920 --> 3:13:16.600 evidence showing that oz Turk has engaged in any anti 3:13:16.600 --> 3:13:20.520 Smithy activity or made any public statements indicating support for 3:13:20.720 --> 3:13:24.520 a terrorist organization or anti Semitism. Generally, unquote. The memo 3:13:24.600 --> 3:13:27.880 goes on to state that though a previous DHS report 3:13:28.000 --> 3:13:31.400 quote implies a connection between oz Turk and the now 3:13:31.440 --> 3:13:35.080 banned Tufts Students for Justice in Palestine, the report presents 3:13:35.080 --> 3:13:38.160 no evidence other than os Turk's membership in Graduate Students 3:13:38.200 --> 3:13:42.119 for Palestine, which supported proposals to Tufts which were also 3:13:42.280 --> 3:13:45.920 supported by Tufts Students for Justice in Palestine. Nor has 3:13:46.000 --> 3:13:49.000 DHS ICE or HSI shown any evidence that oz Turk 3:13:49.080 --> 3:13:52.600 was involved in any of the activities which resulted in 3:13:52.640 --> 3:13:57.400 Students for Justice in Palestine being suspended from Tufts unquote. 3:13:57.440 --> 3:14:00.560 The Bureau of Consular Affairs VISA office and ANAD no 3:14:00.760 --> 3:14:05.119 reporting specific to oz Turk on US government interagency databases. 3:14:05.120 --> 3:14:08.680 According to this memo, and interagency vetting partners do not 3:14:08.760 --> 3:14:11.920 provide any response to oz Turk's twenty twenty four VISA 3:14:11.959 --> 3:14:17.160 application quote indicating the existence of derogatory terrorism related information. 3:14:18.360 --> 3:14:22.680 I'll read the final quote here from this memo quote, 3:14:22.800 --> 3:14:26.879 DHS did not identify any alternative grounds for removability that 3:14:26.920 --> 3:14:29.640 would be applicable to oz Turk, including the ground for 3:14:29.720 --> 3:14:33.200 removability for aliens who have provided material support to a 3:14:33.240 --> 3:14:36.959 foreign terrorist organization. Or terrorist activity, and has not indicated 3:14:36.959 --> 3:14:40.800 whether it plans to consider termination of oz Turk's CIVIS registration, 3:14:41.280 --> 3:14:45.039 Although information provided by DHS, Homeland Security Investigations and ICE 3:14:45.520 --> 3:14:49.920 does not establish any potential ineligibility for oz Turk, you may, 3:14:49.959 --> 3:14:52.960 in your discretion and in accordance with Department policy in 3:14:53.320 --> 3:14:58.959 nine FAM four three point one point one DAH five 3:14:59.080 --> 3:15:02.520 b A, I prove revocation of her F one visa 3:15:02.560 --> 3:15:06.440 effect immediately based on the totality of the circumstances presented, 3:15:06.760 --> 3:15:12.480 indicating that revocation may be warranted unquote. The only evidence 3:15:12.520 --> 3:15:15.000 held against her in the memo is that she wrote 3:15:15.000 --> 3:15:18.120 an op ed. You still can revoke her visa if 3:15:18.120 --> 3:15:18.680 you want to. 3:15:19.520 --> 3:15:24.240 Yeah, yeah, And that is pretty much the way student 3:15:24.360 --> 3:15:26.880 visas especially work, right, leg You did just here at 3:15:27.120 --> 3:15:29.200 the pleasure of US politics. 3:15:29.280 --> 3:15:33.400 Essentially, the fact that this memo openly says they do 3:15:33.480 --> 3:15:36.520 not have evidence to support the claims that she's involved 3:15:36.520 --> 3:15:40.520 in anti Smithy activity on campus supports Hamas in any way. 3:15:41.240 --> 3:15:44.040 The fact that you have the government saying that in 3:15:44.080 --> 3:15:48.240 these internal documents, while externally, people like Christian McLoughlin and 3:15:48.320 --> 3:15:51.440 Rubio say otherwise, it's such a naked display of the 3:15:51.480 --> 3:15:54.640 sort of rhetoric that these people are using. Secretary Rubio 3:15:54.720 --> 3:15:57.520 claimed at a press conference on March twenty seven, twenty 3:15:57.520 --> 3:16:00.360 twenty five. Quote, we revoked her visa. It's an F 3:16:00.480 --> 3:16:03.199 one visa. I believe we revoked it. And here's why. 3:16:03.320 --> 3:16:05.080 If you apply for a visa to enter the United 3:16:05.120 --> 3:16:07.200 States and be a student, and you tell us that 3:16:07.240 --> 3:16:09.160 the reason why you're coming to the United States is 3:16:09.200 --> 3:16:11.520 not just because you want to write op eds, but 3:16:11.520 --> 3:16:14.400 because you want to participate in movements that are involved 3:16:14.480 --> 3:16:18.480 in doing things like vandalizing universities, harassing students, taking over buildings, 3:16:18.680 --> 3:16:21.600 creating a ruckus. We're not going to give you a visa. 3:16:21.720 --> 3:16:24.040 If you lie to us and get a visa and 3:16:24.040 --> 3:16:26.440 then enter the United States and with that visa participate 3:16:26.480 --> 3:16:28.560 in that sort of activity, We're going to take away 3:16:28.560 --> 3:16:29.920 your visa. Unquote. 3:16:30.280 --> 3:16:32.320 Yeah, I mean, she didn't tell them that she was 3:16:32.440 --> 3:16:34.720 engaged to that kind of activity. She wasn't. 3:16:35.360 --> 3:16:38.800 That's just not what happened. Yeah, And DHS admits itself 3:16:38.840 --> 3:16:42.040 that she was not involved in the activity. The protest 3:16:42.120 --> 3:16:45.280 activity that resulted in students Justice in Palestine being banned 3:16:45.320 --> 3:16:48.879 from campus, which included vandalism, but DJA says that they 3:16:48.959 --> 3:16:50.440 do not have evidence that she was involved in that 3:16:50.480 --> 3:16:54.160 in any way, nor had any direct association with that group. 3:16:55.040 --> 3:16:58.640 In December, a federal judge allowed oz Turk to continue 3:16:58.680 --> 3:17:02.240 her research and teach at Tuft University on the basis 3:17:02.280 --> 3:17:04.840 that she is likely to succeed on the claim that 3:17:04.920 --> 3:17:09.240 her visa termination was quote arbitrary and capricious, contrary to 3:17:09.320 --> 3:17:12.840 law and in violation of the First Amendment. The court 3:17:12.879 --> 3:17:15.840 case related to her removal proceedings will still continue. 3:17:16.520 --> 3:17:17.280 Yeah, pretty bleak. 3:17:17.600 --> 3:17:21.119 That was That was Yeah wow, I. 3:17:21.040 --> 3:17:23.120 Guess talking of bleak. Should I finish up with a 3:17:23.160 --> 3:17:25.240 summary of the situation in Syria? 3:17:25.320 --> 3:17:26.800 Yeah, give us a Syria date. 3:17:27.879 --> 3:17:31.080 Yeah, okay. So the an e S has reached a 3:17:31.280 --> 3:17:34.840 settlement with the STG. The aa n e S the 3:17:34.879 --> 3:17:38.520 Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria aka ro Java, 3:17:39.280 --> 3:17:42.240 and the STG being the Syrian Transitional government that will 3:17:42.280 --> 3:17:45.000 result in the withdrawal of troops from the points of contact, 3:17:45.400 --> 3:17:48.199 as well as the withdrawal of SDF troops from Commichelo 3:17:48.280 --> 3:17:51.879 and Hesseka and the entry of the Syrian Ministry of 3:17:51.920 --> 3:17:56.040 the Interior. They're about ninety Ministry of Interior people going 3:17:56.040 --> 3:17:59.800 into Commishlo one hundred and hessecas. These are essentially like Syrian, 3:18:00.320 --> 3:18:03.840 so I guess right. Integration of the SDF will occur 3:18:03.959 --> 3:18:07.320 as brigades of the Syrian Army deployed Derik. If you're 3:18:07.320 --> 3:18:09.800 looking at a map, it's probably going to say al Malakaya, 3:18:10.320 --> 3:18:15.000 Delhi being the Kurdish name, Comichelo, Hesseka and Kabani. These 3:18:15.280 --> 3:18:18.400 forces will be largely Kurdish, but they will also include 3:18:18.440 --> 3:18:22.600 Assyrian and Arab elements, as the SDF always has. I 3:18:22.600 --> 3:18:24.440 imagine they will probably be Armenians as well. There then, 3:18:24.440 --> 3:18:26.920 nearly always are sending in the sdfs in the beginning 3:18:26.959 --> 3:18:30.240 there have been. The agreement also included the integration of 3:18:30.280 --> 3:18:33.360 the Shaish into the Syrian Ministry of the Interior, the 3:18:33.400 --> 3:18:36.439 government takeover of oil fields and borders, and a recognition 3:18:36.520 --> 3:18:40.480 of Kurdish education credential across the country. The A and 3:18:40.560 --> 3:18:42.560 E S will appoint a governor in Hesseka and the 3:18:42.560 --> 3:18:46.640 security chief will be appointed by Damascus. The SDF will 3:18:46.640 --> 3:18:50.280 also appoint a deputy Defense Minister in Damascus. The STG 3:18:50.440 --> 3:18:55.200 appointed Marwan Ala Ali Debac security He previously did this 3:18:55.240 --> 3:18:59.160 for HDS in Idlib Hyactoria al Sham Right, that's the 3:18:59.600 --> 3:19:02.000 group that formally listed as a Foreigntarist organization in the 3:19:02.120 --> 3:19:05.160 US that has gone on to take over Syria and 3:19:05.200 --> 3:19:08.160 become the government in Damascus, and he sort of oversaw 3:19:08.560 --> 3:19:11.960 their purge of rasal Din, which is like an al 3:19:12.080 --> 3:19:16.720 Qaeda associated group in Idlib. Shortly after the deal was 3:19:16.760 --> 3:19:20.560 signed to Syrian traditional government began accusing journalists who entered 3:19:20.600 --> 3:19:23.600 via Samalka, as I have done and Robert has done, 3:19:23.959 --> 3:19:28.760 of having entered Syria illegally, which great I guess. Turkey 3:19:28.800 --> 3:19:31.880 has continued to prevent aid coming to Kabani, where water 3:19:31.920 --> 3:19:36.920 and power remain cut off. Pretty bleak situation in Rosjaba. 3:19:37.160 --> 3:19:39.360 I'm glad that there is not more killing and not 3:19:39.440 --> 3:19:43.280 more dying, but also sad to see some of the 3:19:43.320 --> 3:19:46.320 things that so many people for and died for being lost, 3:19:46.760 --> 3:19:49.760 especially this idea of brotherhood of peoples, which I think 3:19:49.920 --> 3:19:53.119 was integral to the Asjaba revolution and the women's revolution, 3:19:53.240 --> 3:19:56.160 which it will be very hard to sustain in the 3:19:56.160 --> 3:20:00.840 context of the estate led by HTS. Pretty upsetting. I 3:20:00.879 --> 3:20:03.520 know that they can still use your support. Sorry, we'll 3:20:03.520 --> 3:20:05.760 put a fundraising link for heavusaw at the bottom of 3:20:05.800 --> 3:20:09.920 this Yeah. Good time to be alive. Yeah, great, great 3:20:09.920 --> 3:20:13.600 stuff happening in the world. Yeah, if you would like 3:20:13.680 --> 3:20:17.720 to email us, you can email us using a proton 3:20:17.800 --> 3:20:20.640 mail address. To email our proton mail address, which is 3:20:20.720 --> 3:20:23.879 cool Zone Tips at proton dot me. 3:20:24.800 --> 3:20:27.160 Yeah's not here, but she would say put a trans 3:20:27.200 --> 3:20:29.800 girl on your couch. Uh, so I'll say it for 3:20:30.000 --> 3:20:31.240 put a transgirl on your couch. 3:20:32.120 --> 3:20:33.480 We reported the news. 3:20:33.720 --> 3:20:36.760 See the news. We reported the news. 3:20:42.200 --> 3:20:45.360 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:20:45.400 --> 3:20:47.320 from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:20:48.080 --> 3:20:50.680 It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:20:50.720 --> 3:20:53.760 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:20:53.879 --> 3:20:57.440 Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:20:57.520 --> 3:21:01.280 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcas can now 3:21:01.320 --> 3:21:03.520 find sources where it could happen here listed directly in 3:21:03.600 --> 3:21:04.640 episode descriptions. 3:21:04.959 --> 3:21:05.760 Thanks for listening.