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Speaker 1: Cool Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: This is It could happen here, a show about things

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Speaker 3: falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis this episode. I'm joined by

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Speaker 3: Mia Wong.

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Speaker 4: Mia.

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Speaker 3: I have some upsetting news.

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Speaker 5: Oh no, I.

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Speaker 3: Which is frankly one of the best ways to start

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Speaker 3: this episode and one of the best ways to start

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Speaker 3: the show. So I'm pretty sure that I found this

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Speaker 3: account called Let's see at Hill Hitler, and I think

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Speaker 3: he's posting some things that is a little bit fascist.

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Speaker 5: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: I have decoded some of at Hell Hitler's communications and

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Speaker 3: I have uncovered a secret a secret Nazi code.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 6: This is this is an incredibly unexpected revelation from Hail Hitler.

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Speaker 3: He has posted some pictures in like what I would

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Speaker 3: assume is some kind of military uniform that looks like

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Speaker 3: I don't know, it's it's some kind of like h

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Speaker 3: like Germanic military uniform. But I've noticed that there are

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Speaker 3: some runes on this uniform, oh, that look very similar

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Speaker 3: to the Odal rune. So I'm thinking because of the rune,

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Speaker 3: this guy might be a Nazi.

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Speaker 6: Thank you for your work, Harrison. We could never have

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Speaker 6: determined this.

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Speaker 3: That's right, I am. You can find me at osent

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Speaker 3: to Defender online and Defender No. That doesn't for us today,

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Speaker 3: and it could happen here now. So this episode, we're

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Speaker 3: gonna talk about something that's been slowly frustrating me the

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Speaker 3: past few weeks, and that is the misapplication of dog whistles.

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Speaker 3: And let's just get right into it. People have been

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Speaker 3: noticing patterns, noticing trends in official communications from the dhs

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Speaker 3: gov online accounts, which now is the main way the

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Speaker 3: government sends out communications, unfortunately, especially on X the Everything app.

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Speaker 3: But this, this extends outside of X the Everything after,

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Speaker 3: this extends outside of Blue Sky the Internet in general.

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Speaker 3: This is about how we understand the messaging of fascists

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Speaker 3: and understand how rhetoric and anti fascist like education works

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Speaker 3: and ways that I think it's currently being misapplied. So

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Speaker 3: bear with me. This is going to be kind of

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Speaker 3: an odd episode, but I think I think it's worth

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Speaker 3: it because I don't want us falling into the same

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Speaker 3: traps that we maybe fell into eight years ago. So

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Speaker 3: let's let's let's start by talking about some communications posted

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Speaker 3: on the internet by at dhs gov a picture of

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Speaker 3: a painting titled American Progress by John Gast captioned a

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Speaker 3: heritage to be proud of, comma a homeland worth defending.

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Speaker 3: So on the surface, you know, maybe a slightly hashtag

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Speaker 3: problematic sentiment here with a hashtag problematic painting, or at

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Speaker 3: the very least of painting depicting the genocide of Native

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Speaker 3: Americans and Indigenous people specifically with like a white supremacist outlook,

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Speaker 3: with this enlarged white woman bathed in a white cloak,

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Speaker 3: bringing forth that the tide of quote unquote progress as

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Speaker 3: Indigenous people are are forced to flee from the edge

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Speaker 3: of the painting.

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Speaker 6: It's fun because this is a painting we literally when

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Speaker 6: they had to explain manifest destiny like colonialism.

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Speaker 4: Good.

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Speaker 6: This is the painting that was in my textbook in

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Speaker 6: high school.

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Speaker 5: Is three class like it is like.

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Speaker 6: The the er colonialism good genocide, good painting.

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Speaker 3: Genocide good that that's what the painting is. But what

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Speaker 3: I have found through some hashtag research there might be

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Speaker 3: a hidden code in this. In this communication from the

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Speaker 3: DHSO already an agency that only has the best interests

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Speaker 3: of really all people who strive for human rights, the DHS. SO,

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Speaker 3: if you count all of the words in the tweet,

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Speaker 3: guess how many words there are in this tweet?

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Speaker 5: MEA fifteen no.

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Speaker 3: So close, so close, fourteen fourteen words in this tweet,

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Speaker 3: which might remind you of the fourteen words the Nazi signifier,

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Speaker 3: which I probably just to explain. Surely most people listening

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Speaker 3: to this is familiar with the fourteen words, since it

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Speaker 3: seems everybody thinks they are an armchair expert on fascist rhetoric.

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Speaker 3: But the fourteen words we must secure the existence of

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Speaker 3: our people and a future for white children. This became

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Speaker 3: a popular hashtag dog whistle, especially in the past. I

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Speaker 3: would say ten fifteen years, usually by implanting fourteen's and

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Speaker 3: usually fourteen eighty eights, with eighty eight meaning hal Hitler

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Speaker 3: because H is the eighth letter of the alphabet. This

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Speaker 3: became a common Nazi tag. You'd see this in graffiti,

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Speaker 3: you see this embedded into into posts, see this in

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Speaker 3: like Nazi artwork. And going back to this DHS post,

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Speaker 3: we can not only count fourteen words in this tweet,

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Speaker 3: this is actually a fourteen eighty eight because two of

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Speaker 3: the h's in this in this post are capitalized unusually

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Speaker 3: and that means hal hitler wo because hc eighth letter.

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Speaker 3: Uh oh, but wait, actually looking at this post again,

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Speaker 3: there's actually other words in this tweet that are also

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Speaker 3: unusually capitalized.

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Speaker 7: But don't worry.

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Speaker 4: Don't worry.

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Speaker 3: This is still a dog whistle because those other words

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Speaker 3: that are capitalized in the first sentence are the letters

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Speaker 3: A and D, which if you convert those into numbers,

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Speaker 3: are one in four. So it's actually another fourteen.

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Speaker 6: Oh wow, we're doing numerology. We're doing jamatria, where we've.

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Speaker 5: Become Q and on.

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Speaker 3: We're so back. So if you cannot tell by my

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Speaker 3: my thinly veiled sarcasm in that last section, I think

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Speaker 3: this methodology is a little bit silly. What are we doing?

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Speaker 3: What are we doing here? We're converting capitalized letters in

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Speaker 3: the first half of a tweet into numbers and then

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Speaker 3: rearranging the order of those letters to get a fourteen

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Speaker 3: eighty eight. It's literally jermatria and then also counting the

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Speaker 3: total words in the whole suite while still disregarding the

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Speaker 3: capitalizations in the last four words for another fourteen What

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Speaker 3: are we doing? How is this the piece of evidence

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Speaker 3: that sinks sinks the Trump administration and finally proves that

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Speaker 3: they're fascist. You can just look at all of the

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Speaker 3: fascist policies the Trump administration is enacting. Instead of doing

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Speaker 3: numerology on tweets, people are thinking, ha ha ha ha,

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Speaker 3: I have decoded the secret Nazi message with AHHD one

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Speaker 3: eight eight fourteen, nice trigroipers. Meanwhile, you can just look

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Speaker 3: at the actual text of the post, you can look

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Speaker 3: at the painting. Both of those things have an inherent

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Speaker 3: fascist quality. It's literally defending the concept of ethnic genocide

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Speaker 3: of manifest destiny. While the administration, the DHS is currently

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Speaker 3: furthering as no nationalist policies, they are doing this.

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Speaker 6: This is homeland security, right. I don't know if people

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Speaker 6: realize that ICE is a part of homeland security, but.

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Speaker 5: Like, this is the agency that is literally.

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Speaker 8: Rounding people up and sending them to camps. We have

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Speaker 8: camps in multiple countries now, but I say they're being

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Speaker 8: round up and sent to camps. It's genuinely unclear whether

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Speaker 8: what I'm talking about is the fucking concentration.

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Speaker 3: Camp in Florida, seacot in nol Salvador.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think I think people have now escaped,

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Speaker 6: so I can't technically call the Honduras one a death camp.

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Speaker 6: But like again, there's any people in south'su Dan They're

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Speaker 6: like they're just doing this, like what are.

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Speaker 9: We doing here?

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Speaker 3: So this episode I want to focus on how people

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Speaker 3: are misusing anti fascist education, or I would argue they're

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Speaker 3: misusing anti fascist education and kind of missing the forest

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Speaker 3: for a cardboard cutout of trees. Yeah, not even trees,

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Speaker 3: kind of something that could be a tree if you

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Speaker 3: look at it from one angle, but maybe isn't actually

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Speaker 3: a real tree. And you don't need to sound like

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Speaker 3: a da Vinci Code conspiracy theorist to point out the obvious,

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Speaker 3: like dog whistles don't matter if the regular whistle is

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Speaker 3: already fascist, if they're just saying things openly and furthermore

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Speaker 3: doing things, what purpose does a dog whistle? And this

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Speaker 3: is something that we're going to discuss. Are not just

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Speaker 3: saying this and closing the episode, We're going to get

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Speaker 3: into these Yeah, And I think part of what's happening

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Speaker 3: here everybody is so cooked by the paranoid style of

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Speaker 3: American politics. Everyone is so eager to decode the hidden

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Speaker 3: messages that we're missing what's right in front of us.

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Speaker 3: Qwanon has a total victory. Qwanon does not really exist

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Speaker 3: in the way that it did in twenty eighteen. That

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Speaker 3: the q Andon cult conspiracy theory as like a singular

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Speaker 3: cultish project is kind of no more. But q Andon

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Speaker 3: has a cultural victory over the entire United States, and

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Speaker 3: not just on the right wing, not just on Mega.

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Speaker 3: So much of American politics now is litigating who is

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Speaker 3: and is not a pedophile, who is and is not

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Speaker 3: trafficking children, who can notice which events are staged, who

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Speaker 3: can notice hidden codes, who can decode anonymous messages on

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Speaker 3: the Internet. And this is what like everything is. And

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Speaker 3: like the real turning point I think for the right

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Speaker 3: wing was probably the twenty twenty election in like a

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Speaker 3: massive fracture from reality in which they think that election

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Speaker 3: was legitimately stolen. And obviously there was many events leading

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Speaker 3: up to that which contributed to this yeah, and I

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Speaker 3: think one of the biggest fracture points for liberals was

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Speaker 3: the attempted assassination of Donald Trump, with people creating whole

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Speaker 3: new alternate realities that that event was staged. And because

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Speaker 3: that door is opened now, I'm seeing such a massive

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Speaker 3: flood of things that I would label as blueing on

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Speaker 3: conspiracy theories, which is kind of a nonsense term, but

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Speaker 3: it gets the point across. And gonna do a whole

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Speaker 3: piece on bluing on very soon. I've been collecting blue

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Speaker 3: and on conspiracy theories for a while, but I want

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Speaker 3: to do something specifically about this fourteen eighty eight and

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Speaker 3: like secret codes thing, because it's so evocative of like,

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Speaker 3: you know, Q drops, and it's evocative of, you know,

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Speaker 3: searching for Masonic codes, something that American conspiracy theorists have

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Speaker 3: been doing for generations. And we're to talk about that

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Speaker 3: more and read a little bit of an essay on

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Speaker 3: that topic after this ad break, and I will let

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Speaker 3: you know. There's gonna be two messages in the ad

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Speaker 3: break that if you decode, you win a special prize

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Speaker 3: at the end of the episode, So make sure you

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Speaker 3: listen to every single second of the ad in case

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Speaker 3: you miss the code. Okay, we are back speaking of

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Speaker 3: the paranoid style in American politics. I want to quote

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Speaker 3: a few sections to kind of frame what I'm talking

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Speaker 3: about here. This was an essay written in the sixties

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Speaker 3: by Richard version hoff Setter Hofstetter Richard Hofstetter, one of

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Speaker 3: the first like modern pieces on American conspiracy culture and politics.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna I have three paragraphs here that I selected

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Speaker 3: as being relevant to the current topic at hand.

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Speaker 5: Quote.

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Speaker 3: There is a style of mind that is far from

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Speaker 3: new and that is not necessarily right wing. I call

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Speaker 3: it the paranoid style simply because no other word adequately

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Speaker 3: evokes the sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy

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Speaker 3: that I have in mind. Nothing really prevents a sound

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Speaker 3: program or demand from being advocated in the paranoid style.

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Speaker 3: Style has more to do with the way in which

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Speaker 3: ideas are believed than with the truth or falsity of

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Speaker 3: their contact. Unquote. And I like that section specifically because

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Speaker 3: fourteen eighty eight is a real dog whistle. We can

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Speaker 3: see this used. There's aspects of people are who are

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Speaker 3: trying to search for this and trying to search for

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Speaker 3: patterns in the communications of unadmittedly fascistic government agency that

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Speaker 3: I find like sympathetic, like I can understand, because yeah,

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Speaker 3: that is a real dog whistle. I'm going to continue

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Speaker 3: the quote quote. The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of

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Speaker 3: conspiracy in apocalyptic terms. He traffics in the birth and

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Speaker 3: death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of

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Speaker 3: human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization.

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Speaker 3: He constantly lives at a turning point. Like religious millenarianists,

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Speaker 3: he expresses the anxiety of those who are living through

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Speaker 3: the last days, and he is sometimes disposed to set

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Speaker 3: a date for the apocalypse. As a member of the

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Speaker 3: avant garde who is capable of perceiving the conspiracy before

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Speaker 3: it is fully obvious to it. As of yet to

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Speaker 3: unaroused public, the paranoid is a militant leader. Demand for

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Speaker 3: total triumph leads to the formulation of hopelessly unrealistic goals,

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Speaker 3: and since these goals are not even remotely attainable, failure

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Speaker 3: constantly heightens the paranoid's sense of frustration. Unquote, hof Setter

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Speaker 3: is talking about something that that me and Robert specifically

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Speaker 3: have have have discussed a lot on this show before

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Speaker 3: how everyone in America wants to have access to secret information.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 3: Everyone wants to have the exclusive piece of secret intel

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Speaker 3: that will solve everything, and like having having that like

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Speaker 3: informational exclusivity in a world of information saturation, right of

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Speaker 3: a vortex of like meaningless noise. It's it's such a

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Speaker 3: romantic idea that that I alone have the info or

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Speaker 3: the clue to pieces together and it's my duty to

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Speaker 3: inform the masses. It's it's a very romantic notion, and.

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Speaker 6: It's also one that is exactly perfectly anti suited for

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Speaker 6: the moment we live in, which is actually just a

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Speaker 6: moment where everything that is happening is just so clearly literal,

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Speaker 6: like it's all out of the omen like what is

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Speaker 6: happening with the Trump administration. Okay, In twenty twenty, there

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Speaker 6: is a mas massive uprising to attempt to attempt to

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Speaker 6: fundamentally change like the structurally racist nature of the United States,

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Speaker 6: to deal with its fucking class inequalities, to deal with

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Speaker 6: the structural violence of the state. This was reacted to

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Speaker 6: by a massive fascist movement that spent half a decade

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Speaker 6: gaining power and then finally took power in the form

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Speaker 6: of like a bunch of pissed off petite bourgeois fucking

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Speaker 6: car dealers and like literally a billionaire real estate mogul

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Speaker 6: backed by the richest tech company guy in the world, right,

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Speaker 6: and they came together to build fascism. This is the

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Speaker 6: most straightforward, like if this is a conception of how

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Speaker 6: a fascist takeover works that is so thuddingly literal that

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Speaker 6: it defies narrativization because it's just there. There's no subtlety

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Speaker 6: to it. They're just saying it. They just want to

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Speaker 6: do it, and they're doing it. But everyone is convinced

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Speaker 6: that there's like some kind of secret hitting conspiracy and

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Speaker 6: it's like, no, they're just doing the thing that they're saying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you can argue that we have a groper occupied

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Speaker 3: government not because of counting words and posts, but because

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Speaker 3: of not only who they're bringing on for Doge, but

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Speaker 3: literally Ice in DHS as of today, which I'm recording

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Speaker 3: this on Wednesday, I think, because this comes out Wednesday night,

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Speaker 3: are copying like Patriot Front style tactics of loading up

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Speaker 3: ICE agents in U haul style rentable trucks to hunt

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Speaker 3: down people to assault and kidnap like they're just copying

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Speaker 3: the Patriot Front playbook. Here the ICE director said that

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Speaker 3: he wants an Amazon like mass deportation system, calling it

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Speaker 3: quote unquote Amazon Prime, but with human beings. They're saying this,

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Speaker 3: you can listen to the actual words. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: read another quote here from the Paraoid Style of American

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Speaker 3: Politics essay quote. A final characteristic of the paranoid style

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Speaker 3: is related to the quality of its pedantry. One of

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Speaker 3: the impressive things about paranoid literature is the contrast between

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Speaker 3: its fantasized conclusions and the almost touching concern with fectuality

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Speaker 3: it invariably shows. It produces heroic strivings for evidence to

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Speaker 3: prove that the unbelievable is the only thing that can

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Speaker 3: be believed respectable. Paranoid literature not only starts from certain

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Speaker 3: moral commitments that can indeed be justified, but also carefully

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Speaker 3: and all but obsessively accumulates quote unquote evidence. The paranoid

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Speaker 3: seems to have little expectation for actually convincing a hostile world,

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Speaker 3: but he can accumulate evidence in order to protect his

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Speaker 3: cherished convictions from it unquote. And I think that gets

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Speaker 3: into the psychological mechanisms on why people are doing this

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Speaker 3: Nazi code hunting. It's actually a form of self coping,

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Speaker 3: looking at the horrific state of the federal government, looking

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Speaker 3: at the brazenness in which ICE is operating, and this

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Speaker 3: is a self preservation mechanism. Someone on Blue Sky that

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Speaker 3: I was talking to this is like arguing, like, ICE

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Speaker 3: doesn't need to dog whistle, they have no reason to.

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Speaker 10: Like.

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Speaker 3: Dog whistling is for trying to like sneakily get racists

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Speaker 3: or fascists into power while signaling to a nationalistic base

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Speaker 3: that they are like one of them. Right, But these

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Speaker 3: guys are already in power. Yeah, and the base already

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Speaker 3: knows that they're in power. There's no point in dog whistling.

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Speaker 3: They're just using ICE to establish an ethno state. They're

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Speaker 3: using explicit ethno state rhetoric. In a post from this

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Speaker 3: morning which has one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

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Speaker 3: eight nine ten words not fourteen ten words. Wow, DHS

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Speaker 3: said quote, serve your country, defend your culture, no undergraduate

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Speaker 3: degree required. Defend your culture. It's not about locking up

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Speaker 3: criminal migrants. It's about defending a culture from its destruction

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Speaker 3: through ethnic demographic shifts. They're not trying to obscure what

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Speaker 3: they're doing in the slightest No, And I want.

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Speaker 6: To return to something else that the Hofstater said that

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Speaker 6: in that second paragraph that you read about how like

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Speaker 6: one of the central conceits is that like, you know,

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Speaker 6: there's this giant conspiracy that's being unleashed and the American

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Speaker 6: public doesn't know anything about it, and like, yeah, you can.

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Speaker 6: You know, it is distressing to a large extent, the

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Speaker 6: extent to which people just don't know what the government

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Speaker 6: is doing. But also like if you look at any

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Speaker 6: pulling at all, but anything the people are doing, everyone

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Speaker 6: hates it. There isn't like a secret thing that you

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Speaker 6: can say to convince people that they're that all these

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Speaker 6: people are Nazis, because it's like that's not even a

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Speaker 6: particularly useful project because everyone fucking hates them already. Like

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Speaker 6: trying to fight this in the realm of sort of

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Speaker 6: the accumulation of the evidence of conspiracy instead of in

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Speaker 6: the realm of like, hi, i'm your neighbor, you also

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Speaker 6: fucking hate this. Let's go fucking like do this shop

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Speaker 6: people are doing in la and like follow these fucking

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Speaker 6: ice fans around, right, That is stuff that people are doing,

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Speaker 6: but it doesn't have the kind of like instant emotional

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Speaker 6: gratification and register of yeah, trying to like accumulate hordes

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Speaker 6: of secret knowledge, so people do it less even though

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Speaker 6: it's less effective.

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Speaker 3: In my discussion of this, like online on various cursed

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Speaker 3: social media sites, I've gotten a lot of pushback to

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Speaker 3: my pushback of these tactics and what I what I

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Speaker 3: see as a sort of like abuse of anti fascist education,

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Speaker 3: right because people like you know, Robert Evans, myself, you know,

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Speaker 3: Molly Conger spent the past eight years trying to actually

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Speaker 3: you know, educate people about like Nazi rhetoric, like in

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Speaker 3: like Nazi signals and dog whistles, right and as an

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Speaker 3: attempt to hopefully prevent them from expanding their power. And

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Speaker 3: we may have succeeded in education, but we may have

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Speaker 3: failed in the prevention, yeh, of them seizing power. And

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Speaker 3: that also makes me kind of question the effectiveness of

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Speaker 3: certain tactics. And it's now very odd to see things

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Speaker 3: that we you know, argued for visibility around to kind

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Speaker 3: of be used in a way is that don't really

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Speaker 3: make sense that it's it's kind of like trying to

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Speaker 3: tame a monster that you've partially created. And it's so

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Speaker 3: frustrating to me because I mean, one person who I

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Speaker 3: was lightly arguing about the SOD line was saying, like,

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Speaker 3: this is not numerology, and we don't have to be

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Speaker 3: just okay with a clear attempt to normalize white nationalist rhetoric.

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Speaker 3: And like, first of all, like codes aren't rhetoric. Codes

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Speaker 3: are codes, And the textual fascist sentence is the rhetoric.

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Speaker 3: What they're actually like saying, which has like proto fascist

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Speaker 3: or fascistic aspects, that is the rhetoric and they're doing it.

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Speaker 3: Is there somebody out there in twenty twenty five who's

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Speaker 3: gonna finally realize that DHS has an agency has fascistic

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Speaker 3: underpinnings via a chronically online Twitter user explaining that if

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Speaker 3: you count words and turn certain captize letters into numbers,

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Speaker 3: it makes a secret Nazi message? Is there one person

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Speaker 3: is going to become given to us? No, that's not

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Speaker 3: the purpose, And so trying to conceptionize this is like

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Speaker 3: we have to we have to make sure we call

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Speaker 3: out the use of Nazi rhetoric that doesn't apply to

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Speaker 3: this specific thing that we're talking about.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and also like I think you know like I

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Speaker 6: think we've sort of kind of just to some extent,

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Speaker 6: we've just failed on the normalization front because again, like

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Speaker 6: it's the president.

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Speaker 5: Of the United States. Yeah, this is the.

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Speaker 6: Official account of the Department of Homeland Security. It has

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Speaker 6: already become normalized because they have power. The only way

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Speaker 6: to denormalize it is not actually to do media critique.

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Speaker 6: It's to like actually oppose them. But that's scary, that's scary.

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Speaker 3: Report Mary Meia. Do you know what's easy posting on

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Speaker 3: X the everything app.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, this is how this kind of conspiratorial worldview actually

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Speaker 6: empowers the state, because the central conceit of the conspiratorial

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Speaker 6: worldview is that there is a nearly all powerful agency

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Speaker 6: that controls in apparatus that enables it to basically control

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Speaker 6: any events that it wants. Right, this is why stage things,

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Speaker 6: This is why I can recollection. This is why it

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Speaker 6: can like I don't know, like it can just like

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Speaker 6: magically like disappear anyone. It can replace them with anyone.

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Speaker 6: It can stage any protest movement it wants to. Right,

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Speaker 6: And I think you've seen this a lot in the

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Speaker 6: American case, where like I see people who are like

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Speaker 6: genuinely well meaning leftists who are convinced that if you

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Speaker 6: do anything to resist the American State, you will immediately

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Speaker 6: be killed because the American State is all powerful and irresistible.

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Speaker 6: And that's just fascist propaganda. Yeah, you're falling victim to

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Speaker 6: the Panoptic house. Yeah, but it's fascist propaganda that fits

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Speaker 6: into the narrative structure of conspiracy. And because the state

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Speaker 6: is dangerous, right and can hurt you, it's very very

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Speaker 6: easy to you know, accumulate structures of evidence that support

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Speaker 6: the emotional sort of core of this thing that is

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Speaker 6: just literally fascist propaganda. People are resisting the state every day, right,

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Speaker 6: Why is ICE fucking doing patriot prayer tactics and fucking

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Speaker 6: like hiding people in like fucking U hauls to jump

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Speaker 6: out and grab people. It's because when they tried to

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Speaker 6: fucking we stomp them, right.

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Speaker 3: And when they drive around in their cars and you

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Speaker 3: can see them through the window, everyone follows them. People

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Speaker 3: can follow them around and alert their community members on

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Speaker 3: where ICE is.

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Speaker 6: Like again, mother motherfuckers and fucking Lulu Levin shit are

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Speaker 6: like screaming at ICE agents where they trying to arrest people,

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Speaker 6: Like yeah, that's the actual condition we're in.

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Speaker 3: And like we get regular people. And that's why I

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Speaker 3: find some people who would be you know, self described

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Speaker 3: as like anti fascists or self described as leftists almost

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Speaker 3: falling into this trap like more so than others. And

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Speaker 3: it's a little bit evident of something that like I've

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Speaker 3: described as like the forever twenty sixteen, how we're all

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Speaker 3: kind of stuck in the mindset of this twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen era, and where you have this

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Speaker 3: unwillingness to realize that that's not the political situation on

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Speaker 3: the ground anymore. We are actually not in Charlottesville. This

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Speaker 3: is a different situation. This is twenty twenty five. And

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Speaker 3: one other like defense of this, you know, code hunting

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Speaker 3: that I've seen people say is, quote, Nazis love playing

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Speaker 3: games like this, so it's important that we call it out.

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Speaker 3: And another person saying, quote, this is a fun little

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Speaker 3: game for their group chats while they kill and disappear people, unquote,

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Speaker 3: and like, first of all, this is not a game.

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Speaker 3: This is actual people's lives who are being deported, who

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Speaker 3: are being sent to foreign prison camps. These are not games.

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Speaker 3: And I think that view of like anti fascist like

435
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: education risks repeating like the Okay symbol debacle right where

436
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 3: dog whistles end up being created or spread further due

437
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 3: to this gamified version of like easter egg anti fascism.

438
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 3: It's kind of like the Barber streisand effect where you

439
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 3: end up almost accidentally making them start doing the thing,

440
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 3: which Nazis always have that like frustrating impulse because they're

441
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: the little bitch boy ideology. I think as a rat,

442
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: Limit put it one of one of my favorite posters,

443
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 3: and like, I'm not saying that Nazi signposting should be ignored,

444
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 3: but I think we should be thought and careful of

445
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 3: how we do it. To recap the Okay symbol thing

446
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 3: that was invented as like a fake dog whistle to

447
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 3: try to trick leftists into convincing like the media and

448
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 3: had then having the media try to convinceate with people

449
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: that anyone who uses like the okayhand symbol is secretly

450
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: a fascist. And this scheme worked, and eventually the Oka

451
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 3: symbol became an actual symbol used for fascists to identify

452
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 3: each other through this ironic detachment because it was being

453
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 3: talked about in the news as a secret Nazi symbol.

454
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 3: Even though this whole thing was like invented as like

455
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 3: a joke online, and I'm afraid I've started to already

456
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 3: see a similar thing happen with the fourteen words dog whistle,

457
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 3: with an increased use of the fourteen words and invoking

458
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: the fourteen words among far right accounts, specifically because of

459
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 3: this whole debacle with the DHS gov account, and there

460
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: a heritage to be proud of, homeland worth defending American

461
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 3: Progress like ethnonationalist posting. And I truly cannot say one

462
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 3: way or another if that American Progress post had a

463
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 3: intentionally embedded fourteen words dog whistle inside, I can't tell

464
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: you that. And the point of trying to make is

465
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 3: that it kind of doesn't matter, but the way we

466
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,239
Speaker 3: talk about dog whistles does matter. And as frustrating as

467
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 3: it is that sometimes this feels like we're just living

468
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 3: in the meme where the Nazi starts shaving his head

469
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: because everyone's calling him a Nazi, that is how Nazis

470
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 3: works sometimes, And I don't want to play into this

471
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 3: attention spectacle that they so badly want, But you know

472
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 3: what I do want right now?

473
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 5: Is it the process and services that support this podcast.

474
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 3: Another ad break. That's right, be sure to listen for

475
00:27:47,480 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 3: the third and fourth hidden clue in these ads. All right,

476
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: we are back.

477
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 6: To briefly take a small tangent here. I think there

478
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 6: was something very important about like the fact that role

479
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 6: stuck in twenty sixteen, which was sort of like the

480
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 6: peak of irony right as a social affect. It has

481
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 6: left us really unprepared for now where everything is just

482
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 6: sort of like, you know, they're just doing it and

483
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 6: saying it right, yeah, And it's not this sort of

484
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 6: like irony pill deniability shit. They just do it and

485
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 6: people are just not prepared for that.

486
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 3: They're able to wage this war kind of on both fronts,

487
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 3: and I think they are still pushing this. I'm going

488
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 3: to quote from a friend of the pod rat Limit

489
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: one of my favorite mutes quote prediction, the Nazi salute

490
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 3: will become common within two years. Right wingers will half

491
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 3: asset for plausible deniability, mimify the backlash, and then start

492
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 3: fully doing it quote unquote as a joke to quote

493
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: unquote troll the Libs for being hysterical enough to think

494
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: that they were doing it in the first place. Fascism

495
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 3: is a little bit ideology because it's too timid to

496
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: enact as cruelty until it can frame its cruelty as

497
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 3: retaliation against others for anticipating it. And this has been

498
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 3: proven right faster than I think what rat limit predicted.

499
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: There's this current trend on x Everything app where white

500
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 3: girl aspiring influencers are doing Nazi style salutes and trying

501
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: to mimify the backlash. Several posts going viral of these.

502
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: Of these like aspiring influencers either at the pool or

503
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 3: cooking or doing laundry or walking your dog while having

504
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: a your arm in a Elon Musk, my heart goes

505
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: out to you Nazi salute style fashion. Yeah, and I

506
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: think focusing media attention on someone like Musk doing a

507
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 3: Nazi salute makes sense, right, he is like an actual

508
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: person affiliated with the government, but making a whole media

509
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 3: blits about random blue check Twitter girls. Maybe not so much.

510
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 3: Maybe that doesn't have any actual value if of random

511
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 3: like a random Twitter poster from Missouri is trying to

512
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 3: garner backlash by doing a Hile Hitler salute in their

513
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 3: kitchen next to their instapot.

514
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 6: I keep coming back to the thing that I wrote

515
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 6: about the original loss salute and about the ways that everyone,

516
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 6: you know, like one of the functions of capitalism is

517
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 6: that everyone has been trained to experience the world and

518
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 6: think in the image of action instead of like actually

519
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 6: existing things.

520
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: That's what I want to talk about next.

521
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, let's do this, Let's do this. Yeah, go

522
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 5: for go for it.

523
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: No.

524
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,479
Speaker 3: I think part of this focus on like these hidden

525
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 3: codes and even just like these messages online is a

526
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: liberal opposition to the aesthetics of deportation, but not necessarily

527
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 3: the act itself. Yeah, it's carrying out deportations in a

528
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: mode that seems not in line with like neoliberal governing.

529
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 3: And that's I think what a bunch of the backlash

530
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 3: being focused on the aesthetics of the Trump administration, like

531
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: how they film like god asmr videos that they post

532
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 3: from the White House account of deportations and use military planes.

533
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: Those are aesthetic differences, and those differences may be important,

534
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 3: and they're bad, right, I'm not saying these things are good.

535
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 3: Those things are still bad. Yeah, But when that gets

536
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 3: focused on slightly more than just the pure acti deportation itself,

537
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: that I think is evident of being trapped in this

538
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 3: like capitalist realism, being trapped in this like this neoliberal.

539
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, the society of the spectacle exactly right.

540
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 3: Let's like in June, Ice arrested thirty thousand people and

541
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 3: did eighteen thousand deportations. In May it was twenty four

542
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 3: thousand arrests in eighteen thousand deportations. Since February, the Trump

543
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 3: admin has averaged about fourteen thousand and seven hundred deportations

544
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 3: of month. The highest number of deportations ever was in

545
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen under Obama, averaging thirty six thousand a month.

546
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: The Biden admin averaged almost thirteen thousand when the Trump

547
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 3: administration started using military carry planes for deportations back in January,

548
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: mainly as an aesthetic choice that triggered backlash and rejections

549
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: from Mexico and Columbia. Mexico refused to allow US military

550
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 3: aircraft carrying deported migrants to land in their country. Columbia

551
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 3: also barred two military planes full of migrants, but later

552
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: caved as Trump threatened unitive tariffs. And you can see

553
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 3: the same thing about deploying military to the border, something

554
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 3: that Biden also did but has a larger esthetic backlash

555
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 3: under Trump. Do you have something you want to say

556
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 3: on this like image aspect I have some quotes from Fisher,

557
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 3: and that's kind of all I have left.

558
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it is very fitting of our styles

559
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 6: of politics that you're going to Fisher here and I'm

560
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 6: going to Benjamin.

561
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: Benjamin is quoted in these sections that Fisher is pulling

562
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 3: from as well.

563
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 5: Yep, yep.

564
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 11: So I'll go into the source of I'm not going

565
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 11: through the fucking cru bullshit like pop marksis buschois running doc.

566
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 6: But no, like, you know, like one of the things

567
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 6: that that Walter Benjamin, who people genuinely really should read.

568
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 6: He's one of the great original theorists of fascism, and

569
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 6: he fucking died trying to leave the Nazis. And one

570
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 6: of his arguments was that, you know, one of the

571
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 6: cores of fascism is the replacement of politics with aesthetics. Right,

572
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 6: that aesthetics would allow you to you know, feels like,

573
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 6: feel representation instead of do the action. And this is

574
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 6: this is an analysis that has been sort of like

575
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 6: folded through a whole bunch of different analyzes of how

576
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 6: capitalism functions. Right, this is this is one of the

577
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 6: three lines of the society a spectacle, and it's this

578
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 6: real issue that we're dealing with now because again kind

579
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 6: of in a sense, what has happened to everything, right,

580
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 6: And you can argue to some extent that like our

581
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 6: channel being called cool zone media is sort of this

582
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 6: is that all politics from every side has been completely

583
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 6: reduced to aesthetics. And completely reducing it to aesthetics allows,

584
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 6: like allows the fascist mode of politics to simply draw

585
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 6: in a bunch of people who can sort of just

586
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 6: now passively experience living through these sort of through the

587
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 6: sort of collection of images and this emotional aesthetic. Yeah,

588
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 6: and it also is doing the same thing to us.

589
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 6: But the thing is they have the fucking state and

590
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 6: we don't, right, And so if you don't fucking exit,

591
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 6: if you don't exit the sort of mirror world of

592
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 6: esthetic of sort of like of fucking living in images, right,

593
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 6: and you know, go do the actual shit that the

594
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 6: board is talking about in the society a spectacle where

595
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 6: you and all your friends formed workers councils and fucking

596
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 6: start taking all of the shit back from all of

597
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 6: the people who are taking it from you. You're just

598
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 6: gonna live in the fascist timare forever.

599
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 3: I mean, you could look at the union resistance to

600
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 3: iced importations, specifically in La with restaurant workers that it's

601
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 3: literally doing that. And like I would argue, like now,

602
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: it's not so much that fascism is politics as aesthetics,

603
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: but especially now, it is an aestheticized politics. And you

604
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 3: can even see that in so far as its focuses

605
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 3: on you know, like race and like ethnic purity, like

606
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 3: blood and soil. That's why they're posting American progress driving

607
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: out the indigenous people with the aryan white lady carrying

608
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 3: the torch of progress. It is an ascetis sized politics

609
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 3: on like a very pure level. And again, to quote

610
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 3: from my goat this antioat quote Mark Fisher in capitalist

611
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 3: realism quote, ultra authoritarianism and capital are by no means incompatible.

612
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 3: Internment camps and franchise coffee bars coexist. Neoliberals, the capitalist

613
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 3: realists par excellence have celebrated the destruction of public space,

614
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 3: but contrary to their official hopes, there is no withering

615
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 3: away of the state, only a stripping back of the

616
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 3: state to its core military and police functions. Unquote. This

617
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 3: is very similar to something that me and Mia talked

618
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 3: about right as Trump got elected in terms of the

619
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 3: state becoming more removed but hostile.

620
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, although although I see again, I disagree. It's fisial

621
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 6: here because the neo liberals understood what they were doing

622
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 6: to begin with. They were never trying to wither the

623
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 6: state away. That was just the lies they told the

624
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 6: fucking basses like su I mean, that's what contrary.

625
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 5: To their yeah yeah, and it's like you know.

626
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 3: Quote, such a blight can only be eased by an

627
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 3: intervention that can be no more anticipated than was the

628
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: onset of the curse in the first place. Action is pointless,

629
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: only senseless. Hope makes sense. Superstition and religion the first

630
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 3: resorts of the helpless proliferate unquote. This is part of

631
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 3: what I conceptualize as this code. Hunting is almost a

632
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 3: form of this hopeless superstition. To continue, quote, the catastrophe

633
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 3: is neither waiting down the road, nor has it already happened. Rather,

634
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 3: it is being lived through. There is no punctual moment

635
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 3: of disaster. The world doesn't end with a bang. It

636
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 3: winks out, unravels, gradually falls apart. What caused the catastrophe

637
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 3: to occur? Who knows its cause? Lies long in the past,

638
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 3: so absolutely detached from the present as to seem like

639
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: the caprice of a maligned being a negative miracle, a

640
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: milidation in which no penance can ameliorate. The turn from

641
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: belief to aesthetics, from engagement to spectatorship is held to

642
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 3: be one of the virtues of capitalist realism unquote. And yeah,

643
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 3: that's what me is talking about with Gidebor and society

644
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 3: of the spectacle. That's a trap that I think a

645
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 3: lot of people are falling into right now. And though

646
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 3: it's arguable that living in a liberal contradiction may be

647
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 3: preferable to fascist authoritarianism, that still as that mean it's

648
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 3: like good, right, That's not what we're arguing here. Fisher

649
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 3: then quotes French philosopher A Lawn Badeu quote to justify

650
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 3: their conservatism. The partisans of the established order cannot really

651
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 3: call it ideal or wonderful, so instead they've decided to

652
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 3: say that all of the rest is horrible. Sure, they say,

653
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 3: we may not live in a condition of perfect goodness,

654
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 3: but we are lucky that we don't live in a

655
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 3: condition of evil. Our democracy is not perfect, but it's

656
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 3: better than bloody dictatorships. Capitalism is unjust, but it's not

657
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 3: criminal like stalinism. We let millions of Africans die of AIDS,

658
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: but we don't make racist nationalist declarations like Lamosovich. We

659
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: kill Iraqis with our airplanes, but we don't cut their

660
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 3: throats with machetes like they do in Rwanda. And already

661
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 3: parts of this are slightly outdated. Oh yeah, because we're

662
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: shit now, Like, but this is the thing is both

663
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 3: are tragedies where millions of people die, right. One of

664
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 3: them is through the aesthetics of neoliberalism. The other one

665
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 3: is through asthetics of racist nationalistic declarations, which the Trump

666
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 3: administration is currently playing with. That is what they decided

667
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 3: to do. Yeah, and so the reaction to it is

668
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 3: on this aesthetic note, not necessarily on this pure actual

669
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 3: humanistic opposition to deportations as a process that is inhumane

670
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 3: that we should not allow at all.

671
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

672
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 6: I see the logic of this all the fucking time.

673
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 6: Talking to people, We're like, we'll be like, okay, like

674
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 6: no deportations, and then you get a whole bunch of

675
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 6: people being like, wow, but what about criminals just.

676
00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: Like some some deportation.

677
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 5: This is the structural logic of the original like deportation

678
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 5: blitz from Trump.

679
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 3: Creating a class of undesirables that you can then always

680
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 3: add to and press the border on, like what Karl

681
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: Schmidt talks about.

682
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 5: This is the structural logic of fascism.

683
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,919
Speaker 6: But everyone thinks about deportations this way now, and they're

684
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 6: mad that Trump is doing it and not Biden.

685
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 5: But you know, until.

686
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 6: People actually break through the sort of pure opposition to

687
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 6: the aesthetics and actually start, you know, having a kind

688
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 6: of totalizing opposition to the system that is doing this,

689
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 6: we're just going to be stuck here.

690
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 3: And this is I think one of the limits of

691
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 3: using anti fascism as this like aesthetic code hunting, is

692
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 3: because a few days ago, the THHS posted a Woody

693
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 3: Guthrie song, his song America the Beautiful, with the DHS

694
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 3: posting the promise of America is worth protecting the future

695
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 3: of our homeland is worth defending. Notably, everyone in this

696
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 3: video is all white people, which this sentiment is the

697
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: same thing as the fourteen words, except it has fifteen words,

698
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 3: so therefore not a Nazi dog whistle. We're safe, guys,

699
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 3: we're good. I counted the words. There's fifteen of them,

700
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 3: so you can disregard what the actual text is saying.

701
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 3: And I think that is like the prime, the prime

702
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 3: contradiction in which I am growing increasingly frustrated. So that's

703
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 3: most of what I have to say about the limits

704
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 3: of Nazi code hunting and the aesthetics of superstition and

705
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 3: the paranoid style in American politics. Mia, Do you have

706
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 3: any any final wise notes?

707
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,479
Speaker 6: The time for Nazi code hunting, if there ever was one,

708
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 6: has passed.

709
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 5: It is now time to end the episode right here.

710
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 3: That's right. It is related for a meeting. Oh and

711
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 3: if you were able to decode the hidden message in

712
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,439
Speaker 3: the ad break, send the contents of the message via

713
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 3: email to your local congressman to redeem your prize.

714
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 7: By bye.

715
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 9: So, in case you've been living under a rock to

716
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 9: ring in the new year, the United States regime decided

717
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 9: to invade Venezuela and kidnap President Maduro and his wife

718
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 9: Celia Flores to put them on trial in the United States.

719
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 9: Thus far the time of recording, there are one hundred

720
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 9: reported killed by America's invasion, and Maadua's vice president, Elsa Rodriguez,

721
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 9: is now acting president of Venezuela. Amduro has been reigned

722
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 9: in New York. There's not a lot yet known about

723
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 9: how things played out precisely, so I don't plan on

724
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 9: Telvin too deeply into my speculations, but many have been

725
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 9: drawn attention to the similarities between this recent historical moment

726
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 9: and another notorious US invasion of a nearby Latin American country, Panama,

727
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 9: back in nineteen eighty nine. Hello and welcome. Take it

728
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 9: up in here. I'm Addressage and I'm here with.

729
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 4: Speak James, a person who's been to Panama. I'm excited

730
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 4: about this one. I saw some good museums when I

731
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 4: was in Panama.

732
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 9: I haven't been to any museums. I did visit Panama

733
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 9: at one point, nice and years ago. Yeah, this is

734
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 9: before I was politically conscious.

735
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, Yeah, I was even more politically conscious after

736
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 4: spending some time at Panama.

737
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 9: Yeah. I can imagine after reading about what happened. Yeah,

738
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 9: I could see why you would be.

739
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, like I obviously people we will inform people

740
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 4: that they're not aware of the history of the US

741
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,479
Speaker 4: and Panama of two episodes, but having just come from

742
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 4: watching people who across the Darian Gap being detained, imprisoned,

743
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 4: and deported from Panama with US funding, and then going

744
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 4: and seeing the museum with all this history the idea

745
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 4: that they'd come back to full circle to like the

746
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 4: US effectively using Panama as externalization of its own border,

747
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 4: like the US said its Homeland Security secretary to the

748
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 4: inauguration of the current Panamanian president, Like it was really just,

749
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 4: i know, not great, Like it didn't make me happy.

750
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean there's a long history of that kind

751
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 9: of collaboration between those governments. Yeah, for that and for worse.

752
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 9: And so that's really what we're going to look into today,

753
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 9: you know, the history of US intervention in Panama, so

754
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 9: we can hopefully understand why comparisons are being drawn to

755
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 9: the US invasion of Venezuela here in turn twenty six. Yeah,

756
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 9: So in case you did know to some basic facts

757
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 9: about Panama, it's a country on the Isthmus connecting Central

758
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 9: America to South America border in Costa Rica and Columbia.

759
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 9: That's a population of just over four million people, and

760
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 9: it is best known, of course for its canal, which

761
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 9: is a real feat of human engineering with an unfortunate

762
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 9: tragedy behind it, that links the Pacific Ocean to the

763
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 9: Atlantic and via the Caribbean Sea. This canal is one

764
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 9: of the principal reasons why the US has so long

765
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 9: been invested in the fate of this still Spanish speaking country.

766
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,919
Speaker 9: So you see, if they go all the way back

767
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 9: to eighteen twenty one, where as a member of the

768
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 9: newly minted Republic of Grand Columbia, the country gained independence

769
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 9: from the crumbling Spanish Empire. But after that Republic of

770
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 9: Grand Columbia dissolved in eighteen thirty one, Panama remained part

771
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 9: of Columbia until, with US back in, it seceded in

772
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 9: nineteen oh three. Now, Panama had actually tried to gain

773
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 9: its independence from Columbia before then, in eighteen thirty, eighteen

774
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 9: thirty one, and eighteen forty, but among many other reasons,

775
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 9: despite being part of Columbia, it didn't have any roads

776
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 9: connecting it to the rest of Columbia due to the

777
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 9: Darian Gap. Can you tell me a bit more about

778
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 9: that part of the world, because I know you have

779
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 9: a lot of intimate knowledge of it.

780
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, I'd still no road to go through the Darienage.

781
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 4: It's extremely mountainous and extremely jungly, and it has some

782
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 4: very large and powerful rivers. Right. You know, I spent

783
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 4: time in the Darien myself. When you talk to indigenous

784
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 4: people who lived in Daddy and now. But I remember

785
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 4: speaking to a guy, Senor Bonniell was his name, and

786
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 4: he said to me, like, how could we be unkind

787
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 4: to immigrants. Many of us are migrants too. We go

788
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 4: to Panama for education, I mean center from the Panamanian border.

789
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 4: Patrol slash military are there in small numbers, but like,

790
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 4: essentially you are outside of the state in this area right.

791
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 4: Certainly in terms of provision of services, it's very little,

792
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 4: and that's because largely it is geographically very difficult to access.

793
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 4: To get there. Just to sort of paint people a picture,

794
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 4: I took a plane. Then I drove all the way

795
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 4: to the paved road till that ended. And then I

796
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 4: hitched a ride on a truck all the way on

797
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 4: the unpaved road until that ended. And then I hitched

798
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 4: a ride in a dugout canoe that was literally a

799
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 4: log that someone hollowed out, and I took that for

800
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 4: about five hours, and then I walk for a while,

801
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 4: and that was how I got to where I stayed.

802
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 4: It's still extremely difficult for people to cross, and I guess,

803
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 4: like you know, I like to read James Scott. I

804
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 4: think about the way he thought about the art of

805
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 4: not being governed, right, and it's still one of those

806
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 4: areas that it's hard for the state to extract tribute from.

807
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean it's impressive to me that

808
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 9: despite these challenges, thousands of people managed to traverse through

809
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 9: the Daring Gap every year. Yeah.

810
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 4: I mean, people wouldn't do it if they didn't think

811
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 4: that what they were going to leave behind was worse.

812
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 4: But it is one of the most harrowing journeys, one

813
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 4: of the most difficult journeys a person can make. Like

814
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 4: you're shimming along cliff edges on you know, a few

815
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 4: inches of rock, and if you fall, you will die.

816
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 4: You're crossing a river, a river that was chest high

817
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 4: for me, I'm six foot three, and people are carrying toddlers, babies.

818
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 4: Someone gave birth in the jungle while I was there.

819
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 4: It's unimaginable. People die every day. I saw that myself.

820
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 4: It's incredibly dangerous and difficult journey, but people take it

821
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 4: because they want a better chance at life.

822
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 9: Right, Yeah, yeah, And so you could imagine if it's

823
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 9: so difficult differs even now, how much more difficult it

824
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 9: would have been back then, with even less infrastructure between

825
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 9: the regions of Panama and Columbia. Yeah, so at that

826
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 9: point in time, Panama was mainly conducting trade, which was

827
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 9: a state at the time was mean in conducting trade

828
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 9: with its Caribbean neighbors rather than Columbia's capital. You know,

829
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 9: they were very geographically isolated from the rest of Columbia.

830
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 9: But despite that fact, Panama only succeeded in gain its

831
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,879
Speaker 9: independence with the help of the US as American ambitions

832
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 9: and local elite ambitions aligned for development of the canal. Now,

833
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 9: all this and what follows was recommented in Emperors and Jungle,

834
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 9: The Hidden History of the US and Panama by John

835
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 9: Lindsay Poland, which I picked up my library and it

836
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 9: was really a fantastic book that served as my main

837
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 9: resource for this research. In NCA Poland's words, Panama was

838
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 9: a longstanding laboratory of US imperial power and some of

839
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 9: the things I found out about in this book I

840
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 9: never heard of anywhere, and it really shook me that

841
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 9: these kinds of things were happening, you know, at this

842
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 9: crossroads of continents.

843
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

844
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 9: So I've been saying the US involvement in the country

845
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 9: even preceded its independence, with eleven American interventions taking place

846
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 9: in just the pre independent state of Panama between eighteen

847
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 9: fifty six and nineteen oh two, and irrationale for bringing

848
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 9: in the military usually involved, you know, claims of protecting

849
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 9: American interests, particularly during insurrectionary or revolutionary activity in the country.

850
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 9: And of course, because it's a mara, they always had

851
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 9: a heavily racialized approach to the region. You know, they

852
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,879
Speaker 9: saw the Colombian army as ignorant mongrels, and they saw

853
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 9: the Panama Isma's civilians as savage and animal like, especially

854
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 9: as Americans and American capital were involved in the construction

855
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 9: of the Panama Canal railway, which was built between eighteen

856
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 9: fifty and eighteen fifty five to facility the Californian gold Rush.

857
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 9: You see America as iron Panama for a long time

858
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 9: because they saw it as an appealance side for a

859
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 9: trans Isthmus Canal, the next big project in international trade.

860
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 9: And aside from their direct interventions, they were signed in

861
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 9: treaties concerning Panama even before Panama was independent, while I

862
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 9: was expanding in its territory through the conquest of Mexico,

863
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 9: the US signed the Bidlack Treaty with Colombia in eighteen

864
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 9: forty six to guarantee Colombian control over Panama in exchange

865
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 9: for free access to any future canal. As we all know,

866
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 9: a MA always keeps its promises. So only four years later,

867
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 9: in eighteen fifty, the US and England assigned the Clayton

868
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:15,240
Speaker 9: Bulward Treaty, which ensured their joint cooperation in any future canal.

869
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 9: You know, not, as I said, the US and England

870
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 9: signed that treaty. Yeah, because Columbia was not involved at all.

871
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 4: Yeah. Are you familiar with the Scottish attempt to colonize

872
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 4: the Dadian?

873
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 9: No, that didn't come up. I mean I've missed that.

874
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 4: I think it's previous to the dates you're covering that

875
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 4: Scotland attempted to colonize the Daddi and in they think

876
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 4: called the Darien scheme. Basically, much of the Scottish bourgeoisie

877
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 4: pulled their capital to do this, right, the idea that

878
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 4: there would be a Scottish colony. Obviously, at that time,

879
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 4: colonialism was seen as the route to national security and

880
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 4: independence prestige. Yeah, and then you know, they wanted to

881
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 4: keep up with the English who were busy colonizing and

882
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 4: pillaging much of the world, so they attempt to set

883
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 4: up a colony in one of the least hospitable places

884
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:11,439
Speaker 4: on the planet unsuccessfully. You know, people got malaria. When

885
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 4: I was there, I was told that every type of

886
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 4: malaria is present in the gap just because you have

887
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 4: such a global population of people, right that the Mosquitoes

888
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 4: are buying someone from East Africa, then they're buying you,

889
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 4: then they buying someone from West Africa, South America, Nepal.

890
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 4: You know that the Mosquitos is getting a global buffet.

891
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 4: So back then obviously still malaria.

892
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 9: It's like a mosquito convention.

893
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like a mosquito vector. Disease got

894
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 4: old mine the Scottish boards was he significantly lost to

895
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 4: such an extent that like we can point to this

896
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 4: scheme of one of the reasons that Scotland continues to

897
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 4: be colonized by England right down. Yeah, Yeah, it's wild.

898
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 4: I think you will probably learn about it now if

899
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 4: you're going to school, if you're going to school in

900
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 4: Scotland or you've been to school in Scotland, you learned

901
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 4: about it. I'd love to hear from you. But yeah,

902
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 4: the Darien scheme was this kind of idea of a

903
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 4: Scottish empire that ended up completely backfiring.

904
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 9: Yeah. I just looked it up as the late sixteen nineties. Yeah,

905
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 9: to set up a colony called New Caledonia. Yeah, I mean,

906
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 9: and that was their first attempt I set it up

907
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 9: a colony. I mean, way to pick them.

908
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, right, like throw a dark at the map

909
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 4: and you couldn't land to the place, so it's less

910
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 4: like Scotland. It does rain a lot other than that.

911
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, as like trying to set up your

912
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 9: first colony in like Antarctica or something.

913
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, Like I don't know how whether they just

914
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 4: felt like it looks like no one else is hanging

915
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 4: around there, and obviously at that point in time, they

916
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 4: weren't concerned with indigenous people, right, like yeah, they felt

917
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 4: that there was no other state projecting its force there,

918
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 4: or like what, I don't understand how they all because

919
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 4: they I think I read somewhere that there have been

920
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 4: several attempts to build a canal through the day in

921
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 4: I think it's it's actually slightly narrower there. So whether

922
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 4: they were early in that and just sor right, well,

923
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 4: we'll establish ourselves here and then as we'll build a

924
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 4: canal a bit later.

925
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, of course it didn't quite work out.

926
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it didn't go that way for them, sadly.

927
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 9: So the US and England they signed the Treaty to

928
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 9: Ensure Joint Cooperation in the Future Canal. And then during

929
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 9: the American Civil War, President Iram Lincoln advanced the proposal

930
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 9: to establish a colony of emancipated and deported black Americans

931
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 9: in southwestern Panama because you know, he didn't believe black

932
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 9: and white people could live together, right.

933
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, this proposal was.

934
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 9: Scrapped due to Colombian, Central American and Black American opposition.

935
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 9: But it's interesting to think about there being almost a

936
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 9: Liberia in the western hemisphere, you know, because the Liberian

937
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 9: project was an attempt are doing similarly.

938
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's wild to think about.

939
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 9: And so after quite a few of their pre Panamanian

940
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 9: independence military interventions, it's quite a mouthful, thank you, past Andrew.

941
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 9: The US was hitching to build the canal that they

942
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 9: always wanted. They were feeding for a gateway to the Pacific,

943
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 9: and they did not like that when France tried to

944
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 9: build their own canal through Panama from eighteen seventy nine,

945
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 9: to eighteen eighty nine, but they didn't have, you know,

946
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 9: enough of us saying it, because why the hell is

947
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 9: France in America's backyard as far as they're considered. Yeah, right,

948
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 9: The Monero doctrine was established in eighteen twenty three, so

949
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 9: it had to be activated then and there. And of

950
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 9: course they didn't just want a canal for mercantile or

951
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:51,359
Speaker 9: geopolitical reasons. Remember they had just conquered several states in

952
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 9: Mexico and reached the Pacific Sea to shine and sea,

953
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 9: as they like to say. Unluckily for them, they were

954
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 9: still quite a lot of Native Americans and Mexicans still

955
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 9: living in the western plains and West coast. Plus you

956
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 9: had a lot of Asian immigration to the West coast

957
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:14,399
Speaker 9: as well, and the leaders of Americas didn't exactly appreciate that.

958
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 9: You know, they wanted northern European stock to populate the

959
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 9: western coast, unpolluted by having to share a railroad with

960
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 9: black and brown Panamanians. Yea, So they have to get

961
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 9: a canal so the whites don't have to step foot

962
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 9: off their boats and mingle with the locals, you know,

963
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 9: because then they could stay on their boats, they could

964
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,839
Speaker 9: go through they never have to breathe the same air

965
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 9: as the local inhabitants of Panama. And so after wrapping

966
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 9: up their war with Spain, having newly minted colonies in

967
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 9: the Philippines, Guam, and Hawaii, they really really wanted a

968
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 9: maritime shortcut to continue their great empire building ambihops because

969
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 9: they see having to spend sixty seven days to reach

970
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 9: from San Francisco to Cuba. They didn't like that, you know,

971
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 9: going all the way around the Patagonian hu and all that.

972
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 9: That's not fun. So the US created an opportunity for itself.

973
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 9: After Columbia Civil War between the Liberals and the Conservatives

974
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 9: that you know raged between eighteen ninety nine to nineteen two.

975
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 9: Here's what happened. In Panama City. Most of the white

976
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 9: elites tried to stay out to the conflict, but in

977
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 9: the rural interior there was a different story as the

978
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 9: liberals found support among the mestizo peasants. In Panama, the

979
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 9: civil war was less focused on parties whether you're a

980
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 9: liberal or conservative. It started off like that, but became

981
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 9: a mass uprising against the distant conservative government in Bogota.

982
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 9: So after several major battles, liberal forces had taken control

983
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 9: of almost all of Panama's interior, and that's when the

984
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 9: US society started in. They used the bid Lactreaty of

985
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 9: eighteen forty six as justification to bring in their military

986
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 9: to protect and said across Panama, in particular the real Way. Thus,

987
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 9: the liberals were unable to finish their victory and had

988
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 9: to sign a peace agreement. And in the following months,

989
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,760
Speaker 9: liberal forces regrouped and once again took control of nearly

990
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 9: all of Panama except Cologne and Panama City, and once

991
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 9: again the US got involved and blocked Liberal entry into

992
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 9: those cities. The US made it impossible for the liberals

993
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 9: to win, so they surrendered and signed one last peachtreat

994
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 9: in November nineteen o two. And in the civil war

995
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 9: and all that for what? Because more than sixty eight

996
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 9: percent of Panama's cattle was wiped out, agriculture had collapsed.

997
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 9: The armies on both sides committieder atrocities. You know, thousands

998
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 9: of civilians fled into the mountains. Entire towns were emptied

999
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 9: as people were escaping conscription and violence. Have you ever

1000
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 9: read the book One Hundred Years of Solitude?

1001
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 4: When I was like in just out of high school.

1002
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 4: Did Yeah, Okay, I read it.

1003
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 9: Last year, so when I was doing this research, it

1004
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 9: was like top of my mind. Yeah, because you know,

1005
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 9: part of that book covers that Columbia and Civil War.

1006
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 4: I should read it again.

1007
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 9: It was pretty good. I had some very weird stuff.

1008
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 4: It was pretty good, right, yeah, Yeah, it's good to

1009
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 4: I'm trying to read more fiction right now. It helps me.

1010
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 9: Yeah. Even though it was fiction, I think it pains

1011
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 9: a really grim picture of that Civil war.

1012
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 4: Yep.

1013
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 9: And so I could have in reading this, I could

1014
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 9: have pictured what was taking place because the book was

1015
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 9: over it. Yeah, you know, rural Panama was absolutely devastated,

1016
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 9: and yet the transit zone was of course untouched, the

1017
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 9: railroad and the port. The commerce captain going and with

1018
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 9: the liberal peasantry defeated, but the conservatives in the US,

1019
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 9: the conservative elites in Panama City were best positioned and

1020
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 9: negotiate for their own ambitions. With the war over, President

1021
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 9: Roosevelt was looking to finally negotiate for Panama canal rights.

1022
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 9: And if you couldn't get a deal with the French

1023
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 9: canal company there was ready to sell or the governments

1024
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 9: of Colombia. He had permission from Congress to pursue a

1025
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 9: canal in Nicaragua instead. Interesting the French company was definitely

1026
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 9: ready to offload their investment, because you know, there were

1027
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 9: multiple attempts to set up a canal. The French had

1028
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 9: their attempt and they were ready to get it off

1029
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 9: of their hands, right. But the Colombian government rejected America's

1030
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 9: hey Hran Treaty, which offered what they considered an inadequate

1031
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 9: ten million dollars in exchange for sweeping canal rights. So

1032
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 9: America made them an offer they couldn't refuse. What happened

1033
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 9: next was that Roosevelt and a French share holder named

1034
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 9: Philippe Punao Veria struck up a little side deal of

1035
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 9: their own, and the US Navy got orders to prevent

1036
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 9: Colombia from crushing any uprising on the Isthmus. Would their

1037
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 9: circumstances being what they were on the ground in Panama

1038
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 9: without Columbia intervention due to the US blockade, it didn't

1039
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 9: take long for Panamanian forces to declare independence. Finally, in

1040
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 9: nineteen oh three. The Big Black Treaty the US had

1041
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 9: signed with Columbia was supposed to protect Columbia's control over

1042
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 9: Panama and ensure free transit throughout the Isthmus and the

1043
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 9: US did basically the complete opposite. You know, that's what

1044
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 9: makes them such an excellent partner on the global stage.

1045
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 9: You can always count on them to uphold, you know,

1046
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 9: the highest standards of moral and and diplomatic decency. So

1047
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 9: before you know it, America was recognizing a newly independent

1048
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:42,919
Speaker 9: Panama and drafting up a treaty with bunal Veria, who

1049
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 9: the new Panama government had given permission to negotiate a deal.

1050
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 9: But I'm thinking that they may not have known that

1051
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 9: bunal Veria had already practically signed them away. They didn't

1052
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 9: like the fact that they would behold on to a

1053
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 9: treaty that no Panamanian had signed. But if the US

1054
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 9: made sure that the Panamanian government understood that if they

1055
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 9: didn't like the treaty, the Navy could always just let

1056
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 9: the Columbian Army come in to lift their independence in

1057
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 9: the bud. You know, it's like, oh, you don't like,

1058
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 9: who's going at us? Well, you know, it'd be a

1059
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 9: real shame if the Columbia Navy came back in to

1060
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 9: the picture. So the New Canal Treaty gave the US

1061
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 9: far more than they had even expected to get from

1062
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 9: the deal. They claimed permanent control over a ten mile

1063
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 9: wide canal zone, inherited the French canal works and the railroad,

1064
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 9: and secured the right to seize land anywhere in Panama

1065
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 9: if they deemed it necessary for the canal's defense, operation

1066
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 9: or sanitation and trust and believe they would use that

1067
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 9: privilege to seize land at nineteen different times between nineteen

1068
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 9: o eight and nineteen thirty one, cumulatively hundreds of square

1069
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 9: miles thousands of acres, often without notice or compensation, and

1070
01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 9: always justified as necessary for canal defense. The canal's zone

1071
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 9: was removed from Panamanian courts all together, and the US

1072
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 9: was authorized to police Panama City and Cologne and build

1073
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 9: military garrisons. Panama's new constitution made it an effective US protectorate.

1074
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 9: Article one hundred and thirty six explicitly allowed the United

1075
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 9: States to intervene militarily anywhere in Panama to restore public

1076
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 9: peace and constitutional order. Civilization, as Roosevelt argued, was the

1077
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 9: urgent mandate for all these actions toward building the Canal.

1078
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 9: Jesus construction officially began in nineteen oh four in a

1079
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 9: Panama exhausted by civil war, quanted by the French failure,

1080
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 9: and politically dependent on Washington. So he said, you had

1081
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 9: been to the canal zone and the museums and stuff,

1082
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 9: Can you tell me a bit about what you know

1083
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 9: about the canal's construction.

1084
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 4: They were very good at this part. I remember this

1085
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:03,160
Speaker 4: part of very well. They had accounts from the workers,

1086
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 4: you know, the people who were in some cases like

1087
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 4: essentially forced labor. Right, they had accounts of what their

1088
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 4: lives were like. They had like sort of the ephemera

1089
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 4: of their lives, which is always in like you know,

1090
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 4: like in museums. It helps to create a picture.

1091
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 9: Right.

1092
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 4: They're like the sort of the things that they were fed,

1093
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 4: the shitty shoes that they got, given pictures of the

1094
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 4: sleeping situations, and accounts from doctors. Right, because a lot

1095
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 4: of people became unwell because they were exposed to all

1096
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 4: these conditions and diseases that they hadn't been exposed to before.

1097
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 4: So they did a good job. I felt like painting

1098
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 4: how horrendous life was for people who were digging out

1099
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 4: the panamaketal. Yeah, they had a two tier system, right,

1100
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 4: I think it was the gold ticket. Yes, Yeah, they

1101
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 4: were explaining how life was so much more difficult the

1102
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 4: lower down that system you found yourself.

1103
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1104
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, the whole construction of this feat of engineer and

1105
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 9: was you know rightfe would suffering Yeah, and that's suffering

1106
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 9: often came like in a very racialized way. Yes, as

1107
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 9: you mentioned, there was a gold role and a silver role.

1108
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 5: That's it.

1109
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1110
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 9: So even prior to canal construction, Panama is already a

1111
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 9: very racially divided society. You had the white elites in

1112
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 9: the capital, you had the mestizo peasants, you had poor

1113
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 9: black and Mulatto communities, and you also the indigenous peoples

1114
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 9: who were not even counted in official census counts.

1115
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 4: Wow.

1116
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,959
Speaker 9: And among the canal workforce in particular, it was quite

1117
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 9: a lot of black laborers who were either descendants of

1118
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 9: people emancipated from slavery in eighteen fifty two or migrants

1119
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 9: from the British Caribbean who drawned to Panama during the

1120
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 9: railroad construction project and the French canal construction project. And

1121
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 9: so the US took this social landscape and made it

1122
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 9: worse by introducing racial hierarchy with the gold role in

1123
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 9: silver rule that determined your pay, your housing, your medical care,

1124
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 9: and even how you were buried. You know, the American workers,

1125
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 9: the white American workers in the canalskan instruction, occupied the

1126
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 9: gold role and the Caribbean laborers were pushed onto the

1127
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:07,439
Speaker 9: silver role. They had to perform the most dangerous work

1128
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 9: under the worst conditions, and so during the US construction

1129
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 9: phase alone, roughly fifty six hundred workers died from disease

1130
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 9: and accidents, and the overwhelming majority were the Caribbean laborers. Sadly,

1131
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 9: their deaths were treated as expendable losses. Is an engineering

1132
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 9: project framed as a triumph of civilization. The Canal construction

1133
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 9: finally concluded in nineteen fourteen, and so after its independence,

1134
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 9: During the Canal construction and afterwards, Panama faced eight further

1135
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 9: US military interventions, including the famous ninety eighty nine invasion,

1136
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 9: which we'll get to in the next episode. But take

1137
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 9: a guess as to what their rationale was for these interventions.

1138
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 4: They protecting a business interest, US capital.

1139
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 9: Ding ning ning, ning ning, protecting US citizens and property,

1140
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 9: maintaining control and stability, preserving US strategic and political interests,

1141
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 9: all that usual stuff. Yeah, particularly whenever Panamanians were struggling

1142
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 9: for their rights against the elites. The US would get involved. Yeah,

1143
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 9: the U s supervised elections, they oversaw the police force,

1144
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 9: they vetoed public spending whenever it wanted, and the US

1145
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 9: bases lined the canal with thousands of troops explicitly for

1146
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 9: the purpose of maintaining quiet and protecting property in Panama.

1147
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 9: Panama's whole political history in the twentieth century was basically

1148
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,439
Speaker 9: shaped and dictated by US interests. In nineteen oh four,

1149
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 9: when general Isteban Whereas a threatened revolt, the US officials

1150
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 9: pressured Panama's president to fire him and dissolve the army entirety.

1151
01:06:56,720 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 9: In nineteen ten, when Vice President Carlos Mendoza, a liberal

1152
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 9: mulatto married to a black woman, seemed likely to win

1153
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 9: the presidency, the US Chief of Mission, Richard marsh threatened

1154
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 9: occupation if he were elected, so Mendoza withdrew his candidacy.

1155
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 9: During World War One, the garrison commander used occupation imposed

1156
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:22,440
Speaker 9: moral reforms by shutting down saloons and prostitution and publicly

1157
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:27,439
Speaker 9: denouncing Panamanian cities as dens of vice and in the countryside,

1158
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 9: ostensibly to protect American landowners, US troops drunkenly abused, stole,

1159
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 9: and burned homes for two whole years until they finally withdrew,

1160
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 9: and in nineteen twenty five, the US came into Panama

1161
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 9: City to crush a Renter strike. Panama also became a

1162
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 9: regional launch part for the US Empire. The Marines were

1163
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 9: stationed there, whore repeatedly deployed in Nicaragua, Mexico, and beyond.

1164
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 9: For the US Empire, the costs could always be externalized

1165
01:07:57,080 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 9: to Panama. Panama was an imperial laboratory for the US

1166
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 9: to test ideas and weapons they felt were risky to

1167
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 9: test at home. During World War Two, they tested various

1168
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 9: chemical weapons in Panama on nature and people, with minimal

1169
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 9: disclosure and almost no regard for long term environmental and

1170
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 9: human consequences.

1171
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 4: Esis.

1172
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 9: They also left behind unexploded Venetians.

1173
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 4: That is horrible.

1174
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 9: Yeah, it gets worse, Okay, great. In the nineteen fifties

1175
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 9: and sixties, US officials seriously proposed using nuclear explosions, Yeah,

1176
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 9: to carve a new sea level canal through Panama. So

1177
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 9: you've heard about this.

1178
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, New Kingda Darien was there. One of the little

1179
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 4: strategies that they've thought about. I think they thought about

1180
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 4: again when the bisentennial of the United States that have

1181
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 4: been nineteen seventy six. One of the things they wanted

1182
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 4: to do is complete the Pan American Highway. Have it

1183
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:55,759
Speaker 4: run all the way up from the northern tip of Alaska.

1184
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 4: I guess so, I think goes from Canada Actueen all

1185
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 4: the way down to Argentina. I think, geta can we

1186
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 4: can we just nuke the Darien and we'll just join

1187
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 4: them up and they'll be fine.

1188
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 9: Yeah. Yeah, they were really gung who about nukes. Yeah,

1189
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 9: at that point in time in history, you know.

1190
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1191
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:17,600
Speaker 9: The Panama Canal In case you don't know those of

1192
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 9: your listeners at home, the Panama Canal is not a

1193
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:23,240
Speaker 9: sea level canal. It actually it climbs a mountain LOOKI

1194
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 9: you know. So it has several steps where it's like

1195
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:29,440
Speaker 9: the water is released and there's like a floated mechanism,

1196
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 9: and it's it's kind of inconvenient just there's traffic backed

1197
01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 9: up of boats waiting for their chance to get into

1198
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 9: the canal. And so the idea of sea level canal is,

1199
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 9: you know, so much more convenient if you didn't have

1200
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 9: to wait for all those mechanisms to you know, drain

1201
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 9: and fill and all those different things. Yeah, but nuke

1202
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 9: in the canal to create a new sea level canal's

1203
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 9: really not the best idea.

1204
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:55,439
Speaker 4: No, Yeah, it's wild to think about.

1205
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 5: Then.

1206
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:59,280
Speaker 4: I guess they got nukes relatively recently. They were like, okay,

1207
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 4: what can we do with these? Like yeah, yeah, what

1208
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 4: else can we Now you'll see when you're in Panama City,

1209
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 4: you see boats like sort of hanging out around the canal. Yeah,

1210
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 4: it's waiting to enter those those locks.

1211
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 9: And I mean, obviously the consequences of a nuclearicate is

1212
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:19,440
Speaker 9: a canal be disastrous. Entire regions that have been irradiated,

1213
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 9: populations would have been displaced, ecosystems de altered. And yet

1214
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:29,520
Speaker 9: these seriously, with a straight peace consider this plant. Yeah,

1215
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 9: because you know who cares about the people outside the

1216
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 9: Imperial center?

1217
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 4: Sure? Yeah, Like what the Embra people and the Guna

1218
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 4: people who live down there, Like what do they matter

1219
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 4: to them?

1220
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:39,599
Speaker 9: Right?

1221
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 4: And this is after they've dropped a nuke. It's not

1222
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 4: like they're like postulating here, like.

1223
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:46,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's not that they don't know what nukes do.

1224
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, they've seen this happen in Japan. Right, We're like

1225
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,719
Speaker 4: a decade since they know that it's still killing people.

1226
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, there are places and canals and structures that have

1227
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 9: been irrigated, caves style and stuff using dynamite, you know,

1228
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 9: tn T you know, basic communitions and explosive devices. And

1229
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:09,160
Speaker 9: that's one thing, right, I don't know what it's like

1230
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 9: more of that. It's like, let's just school as big

1231
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 9: as we kind of go.

1232
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:19,759
Speaker 4: Right, it's not understanding the fundamental difference, right, Like nuclear

1233
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 4: blast is of an entirely different nature too.

1234
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean it could have very easily end up

1235
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 9: affect in the US as well, right, Yeah, you know,

1236
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 9: the occurrents could have carried if they fall out into

1237
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 9: the southern US, into the West coast. You know, it's

1238
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 9: yea into other countries in the region as well. Yeah.

1239
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 4: I visited one of the places that the United States

1240
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 4: nuked after World War Two, right in the Republic of

1241
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 4: the Marshall Islands, and they completely failed to account for

1242
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 4: even prevailing winds, right, like the fallout directly engulfed small

1243
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 4: Japanese fishing vessel. That was just happened to be because

1244
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 4: I didn't tell anyone, right, and then they just dropped

1245
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 4: a nuclear boy told some people to see they evacuated.

1246
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 4: People are living on the island, but they dropped a

1247
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:07,800
Speaker 4: nuclear barn and then we're just like, oh, wow, it's

1248
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 4: blown off over there. Did the result in people being

1249
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 4: severely irradiated?

1250
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 9: You know, it's like unch of scientists, you know, then

1251
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:17,759
Speaker 9: their next and furiously scribbled on some notes.

1252
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,639
Speaker 4: Fascinating people have attempted to get back to their island

1253
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 4: because at one point they were told that they could

1254
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 4: and they absolutely like it wasn't safe for them. But

1255
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:29,519
Speaker 4: like the the coconuts and the crabs and the fish

1256
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:32,559
Speaker 4: and the reefs are still irradiated, They're still not safe

1257
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:35,759
Speaker 4: for them. People still have one of the highest rates

1258
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:39,599
Speaker 4: of still birth in the world. Yeah, the stories they

1259
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:43,800
Speaker 4: tell about miscarrying pregnancies are heartbreaking. Yeah, because they didn't

1260
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 4: know what was going on, right.

1261
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:47,719
Speaker 9: The human and environmental and that it's awful.

1262
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's terrible.

1263
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 9: And so it took resistance from Panamanians, from scientists, and

1264
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,760
Speaker 9: from a growing global environmental movement to put an end

1265
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 9: to this reborsal. Now, as is the kneeature of interventions,

1266
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 9: after a certain point, they started weighan because you know,

1267
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 9: the intervening power has created this setup that they find preferential,

1268
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 9: you know, so while they're setting up they may have

1269
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 9: to intervene on repeated occasions, but once they get to

1270
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 9: a certain point where their control over that area is crystallized,

1271
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,559
Speaker 9: they don't have to intervene as explicitly as often, so

1272
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 9: direct US interventions waned as time went on, but the

1273
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:33,800
Speaker 9: tensions continue to build in Panama for independence from the US,

1274
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 9: and these tensions flared in January nineteen sixty four, which

1275
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:40,839
Speaker 9: would get the ball rolling for a new treaty between

1276
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 9: the countries that will replaced the previous hay Banal for

1277
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 9: the year treaty. So, since that nineteen oh three treaty,

1278
01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 9: Panamanians want to get revisited and revised. Remember, they didn't

1279
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,720
Speaker 9: want to agree to it in the first place. They

1280
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 9: were kind of coerced into its terms. Both the US's

1281
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 9: proposal to create a new sea that canal without nukes,

1282
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:05,920
Speaker 9: which would require cooperation with the Paraminians there would be

1283
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:09,680
Speaker 9: forced to say he was Paramian demands into consideration, and

1284
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:13,479
Speaker 9: so as a concession to Panamanian nationalism, US President John F.

1285
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:17,839
Speaker 9: Kennedy and Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson developed a policy

1286
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 9: that would fly the Panamanian flag alongside the American flag

1287
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 9: ou La la in certain parts of the Canal Zone,

1288
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 9: and then JFK was assassinated in November nineteen sixty three,

1289
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 9: and then in January of the following year, Balboa High School,

1290
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:37,600
Speaker 9: which was an American school in the Canal Zone, refused

1291
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 9: to fly either flag. So on January ninth, nineteen sixty four,

1292
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:46,520
Speaker 9: American students decided to raise the American flag for freedom

1293
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:52,280
Speaker 9: or whatever, and Paramanian students from Panama's National Institute marched

1294
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 9: to the school to raise their own flag, and then

1295
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 9: there's a scuffle, and then the Panamanian flag is torn,

1296
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 9: and then that scuffle becomes a riot, where twenty four

1297
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 9: Panamian civilians and four US soldiers were killed in the fighting. Yeah,

1298
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:10,599
Speaker 9: and hundreds of Pamelian civilians were injured by the American crackdown.

1299
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,720
Speaker 4: That Panamanian flag is in the museum, the Panama cat

1300
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 4: Now Museum.

1301
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:16,719
Speaker 9: The one that got torn.

1302
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:17,519
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1303
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:20,840
Speaker 9: Oh, that's impressive. I have to go and see that then. Yeah.

1304
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:22,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really it's a good museum.

1305
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 9: So that's a real big piece of history because that

1306
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:27,479
Speaker 9: whole riot led to everything else.

1307
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1308
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 4: No, that is like it's a pivotal like artifact of

1309
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 4: their national history.

1310
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:35,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's like for want of a nil the horse

1311
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,160
Speaker 9: was lost. It's like for want of a ripped flag. Yeah,

1312
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 9: Panamanian independence was lost. Yeah, yeah, obviously that's an atal

1313
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:46,599
Speaker 9: allowance to that, but it's such a unique artifact of history.

1314
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:49,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's cool to be like this pivotal moment, like

1315
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:50,759
Speaker 4: this thing was present.

1316
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1317
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 4: Sometimes when I'm in Spain, I'll kick around antiques markets

1318
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 4: and find like, like a newspaper to see that this

1319
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:01,680
Speaker 4: newspaper was on the street the same day, right that

1320
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 4: the Spanish military was defeated in Barcelona. You can see

1321
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:08,800
Speaker 4: sometimes people like sheltering behind newspaper stands, right, it's a

1322
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:11,599
Speaker 4: exchange fire with the soldiers and things like, oh, this

1323
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:13,559
Speaker 4: thing was present at this pivotal moment.

1324
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, it was there for that piece of history

1325
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:17,439
Speaker 9: that more months in time. Yeah.

1326
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 4: I like to acquire those things when I when I can.

1327
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:23,760
Speaker 9: Something I would like to acquire though, is a bit

1328
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:27,560
Speaker 9: of rubble or something from one of the other actions

1329
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 9: that day. The protesters also burned several American buildings, including

1330
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:36,479
Speaker 9: entire plans, airlines, and the US Information Agency. I'm wondering

1331
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 9: if that piece of history is also in the museum.

1332
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think those buildings are still around, like some

1333
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 4: or some of those canals, some of the Canal company

1334
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 4: buildings are still around because you can you can see

1335
01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 4: them when you're driving around.

1336
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 9: And so, in response to that whole riot situation, the

1337
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 9: Panamanian President Robert docci Abi cut diplomatic relations with the

1338
01:16:57,040 --> 01:17:01,280
Speaker 9: US and demanded a renegotiation of the treaty. A few

1339
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 9: months later, in April nineteen sixty four, diplomatic ties were

1340
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 9: re established in an effort to resolve the conflict between

1341
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 9: the countries. These negotiations would be ongoing for years afterwards.

1342
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 9: In fact, one of the reasons the idea of the

1343
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:19,439
Speaker 9: nuclear excavation was considered in the first place was that

1344
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:23,640
Speaker 9: it didn't require as much Paramanian labor cooperation as a

1345
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:26,759
Speaker 9: typical canal project would, and because tensions were so tense

1346
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 9: that Panama, they were like, let's circumvent them and just

1347
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 9: just opening up ourselves. But when the nuclear canal project collapsed,

1348
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 9: and with mountain pressure from the Paramanians, the stage was

1349
01:17:38,080 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 9: set for the US to pull back its more direct

1350
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 9: and open medland in the country, at least for the while.

1351
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 9: JFK's vice president Lyndon Johnson won the presidency in November

1352
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 9: nineteen sixty four, and as the annalyustry of the riots approached,

1353
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:54,920
Speaker 9: he resolved to figure out that new treaty, explore c

1354
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 9: level canal preparations, and settle things with the contingency of

1355
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:02,760
Speaker 9: Americans in office sought to preserve America's perpetual ownership of

1356
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 9: the canals, including the famous white supremacist art conservative Strom Trummer.

1357
01:18:08,479 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 9: If you know anything about trum Thum, and you know

1358
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 9: that like fok found in kitchen, you know the fact

1359
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:16,759
Speaker 9: that this guy was against Panaminians having control over the canal.

1360
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 9: It's not surprised. And this is the guy who set

1361
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:23,320
Speaker 9: a country record for philibustering against the Civil Rights Act.

1362
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I think it was beaten recently by Corey Booker,

1363
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:30,679
Speaker 4: who set a world record for filibustering about not very much.

1364
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:32,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think I could about that.

1365
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:32,960
Speaker 12: Yeah.

1366
01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:35,120
Speaker 4: He talked about Don Trump for a while and then

1367
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:37,080
Speaker 4: he finished up and went and voted for a bunch

1368
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 4: of Trump appointees.

1369
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 9: It's like the Democratic Party response is like, you stop that,

1370
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:46,439
Speaker 9: you meani, and then they just do whatever. Yeah, whatever

1371
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:48,200
Speaker 9: Trump wants anyway.

1372
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're not allowed to do you know, you're not

1373
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:52,200
Speaker 4: allowed to do that.

1374
01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:53,560
Speaker 9: That's against the rules.

1375
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, they summoned the Reddit moderators, is the democratic response.

1376
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:00,160
Speaker 4: But yeah, if there was a cause during the time

1377
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 4: he was in office and it would have made the

1378
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 4: world better, you can probably count on Strom being against it.

1379
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

1380
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:10,839
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1381
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:13,400
Speaker 9: And so the Americans they managed to script together a

1382
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:17,600
Speaker 9: treaty in nineteen sixty seven, but the Panamanians didn't ratify it,

1383
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 9: and in the following year, nineteen sixty eight, Panama is

1384
01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:26,920
Speaker 9: overtaken by a military who don't dun't dun So if

1385
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:29,240
Speaker 9: you want to know what will happen with the treaty,

1386
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:32,719
Speaker 9: with Panama's political future and how all of this does

1387
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 9: or does not relate to current commissions in Venezuela, because

1388
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:38,639
Speaker 9: I know I have that threat still dangling. Yeah, stay

1389
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 9: tuned for the next episode this has When it can

1390
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:44,920
Speaker 9: happen here, I'm andrews Age. I'm here with James Stout

1391
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:48,960
Speaker 9: and as always, all power to all the people. This

1392
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 9: The year was nineteen sixty eight, and the military coup

1393
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:09,360
Speaker 9: had just rocked the Isthmian country of Panama. Welcome to

1394
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 9: it could happen here. I'm Andrew Sage, joined again by.

1395
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:18,200
Speaker 4: James, it's me again. I'm excited to talk about Panama.

1396
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:18,800
Speaker 9: Nearly, mister Q.

1397
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:20,639
Speaker 5: Yeah I did.

1398
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:23,799
Speaker 4: I was forgot who I was for a second.

1399
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:26,960
Speaker 9: And this is the follow up to the last episode

1400
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:30,280
Speaker 9: on the history of US involvement in Panama. So you

1401
01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:32,080
Speaker 9: can go back and give that one. Listen if he

1402
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 9: happens already, But in these times of Trump ro doctrine,

1403
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:39,639
Speaker 9: I want to take us back to this particular moment

1404
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:43,400
Speaker 9: in Iama's first history to highlight the parallels with today.

1405
01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:46,720
Speaker 9: In short, what we talked about last time was how

1406
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 9: Panama became a testing ground for US Empire. Long before, during,

1407
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:54,920
Speaker 9: and after the construction of the Panama Canal, the US

1408
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:59,799
Speaker 9: had repeated military interventions justified as protecting transit or American

1409
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:04,839
Speaker 9: and wrists, and Washington ultimately backed Panama's break from Columbia

1410
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:10,000
Speaker 9: nineteen oh three secure canal rights on Washington students. This

1411
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:14,839
Speaker 9: independence came with a cost A caveat, a lopsided treaty

1412
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:18,599
Speaker 9: that turned Panama into US protectorate and granted the US

1413
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,680
Speaker 9: permanent control over the canal zone and the rest of

1414
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:26,960
Speaker 9: the country. Effectively, the canal's construction itself was an insurance

1415
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 9: feat built on racial hierarchy, and throughout the rest of

1416
01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:33,719
Speaker 9: the twentieth century, the US continued to demonstrate its control

1417
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:37,639
Speaker 9: over Panama's politics, the attempts of its people to exercise

1418
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:42,280
Speaker 9: their autonomy, to exercise their their rights, and the US

1419
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 9: of course engaged in the testing of chemical weapons in

1420
01:21:45,439 --> 01:21:47,839
Speaker 9: the season of land and the use of the country

1421
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:53,120
Speaker 9: as a regional military launch pad. And yet Pamelians continue

1422
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:56,760
Speaker 9: to resist, continue to challenge US control, and continue to

1423
01:21:56,800 --> 01:22:00,880
Speaker 9: demand treaty reform. And so following the nineteenth sixty four riots,

1424
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 9: there was an opportunity to negotiate a new treaty, but

1425
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:06,799
Speaker 9: after the first attempt was rejected by Panama nineteen sixty seven,

1426
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:10,240
Speaker 9: a military coup would rock the country in nineteen sixty eight.

1427
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:12,680
Speaker 9: A feast to get this timeline thanks to my main

1428
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:16,639
Speaker 9: resource for these episodes, Emperors in the Jungle The Hidden

1429
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:19,839
Speaker 9: History of the US in Panama by John Lindsay Poland,

1430
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:22,680
Speaker 9: but he doesn't go into too much depth on the

1431
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 9: military coup specifically, but that I had to look to

1432
01:22:26,120 --> 01:22:30,480
Speaker 9: an EPSCO knowledge advantage article by Carl Henry Marco titled

1433
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 9: Omar Torrijos ousts Arias in Panama. What I learned from

1434
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:38,640
Speaker 9: that was there was a coalition of National Guard officers

1435
01:22:39,080 --> 01:22:43,680
Speaker 9: that ousted President Arnulfo Arias, who was himself trying to

1436
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:46,720
Speaker 9: consolidate control over the military so they would support his

1437
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:50,559
Speaker 9: future elections by removing those officers he thought he could control.

1438
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 9: So there were apparently racial tensions mixed into the school,

1439
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:58,400
Speaker 9: as officers in the National Guard had increasingly come from

1440
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:03,160
Speaker 9: Mestizo backgrounds as opposed to white backgrounds, which had traditionally

1441
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:08,160
Speaker 9: supported the civilian predominantly white oligarchy. So a coalitionive officers

1442
01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:10,559
Speaker 9: tried to change this. At first, they were led by

1443
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:14,320
Speaker 9: a guy named Major Boris Martinez, who seized power and

1444
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:19,599
Speaker 9: ousted areas before anyone thought for a moment the things

1445
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 9: were finally going to radically change in the country. Within months,

1446
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:27,120
Speaker 9: student protests were crushed by the National Guard with arrests

1447
01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:30,800
Speaker 9: and beatens, making it clear that the military rule and

1448
01:23:30,840 --> 01:23:35,480
Speaker 9: not democracy, was there to stay. Not long after Martinez

1449
01:23:35,479 --> 01:23:39,040
Speaker 9: took control, he was himself ousted by a lieutenant colonel

1450
01:23:39,200 --> 01:23:42,280
Speaker 9: and the junta's chief of staff in nineteen sixty nine.

1451
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:47,240
Speaker 9: That man was Omar Torrijos Herrera, a Mestizo officer with

1452
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:50,759
Speaker 9: middle class roots. Who sought to challenge the oligarchy. Somewhat

1453
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:55,240
Speaker 9: fun fact, though, Lindsay Poland mentions that Torrijos sued as

1454
01:23:55,240 --> 01:23:58,719
Speaker 9: a spy for the US military intelligence from nineteen fifty

1455
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:02,160
Speaker 9: five to nineteen sixty nine, informing the Americans about everything

1456
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:06,080
Speaker 9: from labor unrest and student activities to political issues and

1457
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:09,680
Speaker 9: the Soviet Chinese penetration. Tori Host was one of the

1458
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:12,720
Speaker 9: soldiers who helped suppress the unrest in nineteen sixty four.

1459
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:16,599
Speaker 9: In fact, oh well, but in power. Publicly, he styled

1460
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:20,839
Speaker 9: his military rule as reformist. He pushed through land reforms

1461
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 9: that opened up estates long when applies by elites, and

1462
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:28,280
Speaker 9: promised change for rural Panama. But although these reforms were popular,

1463
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 9: very few poor Panamanians actually benefited. Meanwhile, he overhauled the

1464
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 9: bank n doors in the country, such as Panama quickly

1465
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:42,160
Speaker 9: became a hub for offshore banking and money laundering. But

1466
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:44,360
Speaker 9: it can't be said that he didn't do anything positive

1467
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:47,120
Speaker 9: for the country because he was the one whom ased

1468
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:50,360
Speaker 9: to establish a new treaty with the US. The US

1469
01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:53,839
Speaker 9: was facing international pressure this point for the continued ownership

1470
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:56,519
Speaker 9: of the canal, especially thanks to a nineteen seventy three

1471
01:24:56,600 --> 01:25:00,840
Speaker 9: United Nations Security Council session hosted by Torrijo's in Panama City.

1472
01:25:01,280 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 9: In nineteen seventy seven, Tory Host negotiated Jimmy Carter and

1473
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:09,360
Speaker 9: secured the treaties that promised the Canal's return to Panamanian control.

1474
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 9: The Tory Host Carter Treaties which agreed to transfer the

1475
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:16,080
Speaker 9: canal from the United States to Panama on December thirty first,

1476
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:19,320
Speaker 9: nineteen ninety nine, with the surrounding territory of the canal

1477
01:25:19,400 --> 01:25:22,600
Speaker 9: so And returned first in nineteen seventy nine, and the

1478
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:26,000
Speaker 9: US military being allowed to remain the country until nineteen

1479
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:29,960
Speaker 9: ninety nine. But despite this major win, torri Host knew

1480
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:33,120
Speaker 9: his rule was under pressure, so he announced a controlled

1481
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:37,120
Speaker 9: return to civilian government. He created a political party dominated

1482
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:39,960
Speaker 9: by the National Guard. He stepped back from the presidency.

1483
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:43,840
Speaker 9: He installed a civilian figurehead named Aristateius Royo, and he

1484
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:48,719
Speaker 9: promised elections by nineteen eighty four. But then his private

1485
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:52,759
Speaker 9: plane crashed in nineteen eighty one. Which it was funny

1486
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 9: how frequently that happened back in those days. You know, yeah,

1487
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:59,599
Speaker 9: small aircraft doesn't randomly. These political leaders are constantly dying

1488
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:04,560
Speaker 9: and blamed crashes very sad, and so the democratic reforms

1489
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 9: didn't happen. Instead, Torijos's intelligence chief emerged as the new

1490
01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:17,200
Speaker 9: military dictator of Panama. His name was Manuel Noriega. Now,

1491
01:26:17,240 --> 01:26:20,360
Speaker 9: as Lindsay Poland talks about in the book, Noriega was

1492
01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:23,400
Speaker 9: another informant for the US in the mid nineteen fifties,

1493
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:27,679
Speaker 9: but his career in the military wasn't going anywhere because

1494
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 9: he had a history of alcoholism and beaten women until

1495
01:26:32,280 --> 01:26:37,720
Speaker 9: Torijo's hand picked him as his intelligence chief. Manuel Noriega

1496
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:42,160
Speaker 9: came up inside a Panamanian National Guard that had been shaped, trained,

1497
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:44,920
Speaker 9: and closely supervised by the US during the Cold War.

1498
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:49,240
Speaker 9: He was educated at Peru's National Military Academy, trained at

1499
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:52,640
Speaker 9: the School of the Americas, took courses in intelligence and

1500
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:56,360
Speaker 9: conter intelligence in nineteen sixty seven, and trained in psychological

1501
01:26:56,360 --> 01:27:00,280
Speaker 9: warfare at Fort Benning. By the late nineteen sixties he

1502
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 9: had also become a regular informant for US intelligence. You know,

1503
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:07,840
Speaker 9: he took more than just a few courses. He was

1504
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:11,840
Speaker 9: very much embedded with the Americans and so totally hosts dead.

1505
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 9: Noriega seized the opportunity to take power. Initially the US

1506
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:19,679
Speaker 9: was pretty much okay with this. No Diego had previously

1507
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:23,520
Speaker 9: been a CIA asset, providing intelligence and governments and militaries

1508
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 9: across the region, including Cuba. He had helped suppress leftist movements,

1509
01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:32,880
Speaker 9: facilitated US regional operations, and maintain stability around the Canal,

1510
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:36,599
Speaker 9: and for that he was well compensated more than one

1511
01:27:36,680 --> 01:27:40,719
Speaker 9: million dollars from the cie WOW, plus at least another

1512
01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:43,760
Speaker 9: one hundred and sixty two thousand dollars from the U.

1513
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:47,120
Speaker 9: S Army and the Defense Intelligence Agency. By the early

1514
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:51,000
Speaker 9: nineteen seventies, US agencies already knew that no Diego was

1515
01:27:51,040 --> 01:27:55,360
Speaker 9: deeply involved in drug trafficking. In nineteen seventy two, the

1516
01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:59,400
Speaker 9: Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs even considered assassinating him.

1517
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:02,519
Speaker 9: But he's just too useful for him to go so soon.

1518
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:04,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1519
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:06,799
Speaker 9: So, throughout the Carter years, evidence of his criminal activity

1520
01:28:07,120 --> 01:28:11,040
Speaker 9: was building up and was also suppressed because Washington needed

1521
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:15,120
Speaker 9: Paname and cooperation to secure ratification of the Canal treateams.

1522
01:28:15,479 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 9: But under Reagan the evidence became impossible to ignore, as

1523
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:22,840
Speaker 9: intelligence reports from nineteen eighty three and nineteen eighty five

1524
01:28:23,240 --> 01:28:27,720
Speaker 9: documented meetings between nor Diega and Cartail figures permissions to

1525
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:32,559
Speaker 9: manufacture cocaine in Panama and offers to mediate disputes between

1526
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:33,760
Speaker 9: the traffickers.

1527
01:28:34,360 --> 01:28:37,479
Speaker 4: I love the mediation, but the best Yeah.

1528
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:37,720
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1529
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:42,080
Speaker 9: He was like, hey, guys, this isn't you. It's come on,

1530
01:28:42,160 --> 01:28:43,680
Speaker 9: let's let's have us sit down and talk.

1531
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:48,280
Speaker 4: He was committed to like a non cast, real solution.

1532
01:28:48,439 --> 01:28:51,599
Speaker 4: You know. It's great to see.

1533
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:55,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, And and they continue to protect them even with

1534
01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:58,519
Speaker 9: that smoking gun. They were like, yeah, Noriega is still

1535
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:03,080
Speaker 9: our guy. They had hoped that he would cooperate with

1536
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:09,040
Speaker 9: contra operations against Nicaragua's Sandinista government THO, but in what

1537
01:29:09,280 --> 01:29:13,879
Speaker 9: was I suppose his first strike, he refused to cooperate

1538
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:17,600
Speaker 9: with them on that operation. He also maintained relations with

1539
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:21,840
Speaker 9: both Nicaragua and Cuba, and meanwhile, under his leadership, the

1540
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:25,639
Speaker 9: Panamanian Defense Forces expanded their role in both arms and

1541
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:29,400
Speaker 9: drug smuggling networks, much of it feeding directly into the

1542
01:29:29,479 --> 01:29:33,040
Speaker 9: US drug market. So Noriega and the US had to

1543
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:35,880
Speaker 9: break up in the mid to late eighties. And this

1544
01:29:35,920 --> 01:29:39,680
Speaker 9: is also thanks to US domestic politics. You see, in

1545
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:43,479
Speaker 9: nineteen eighty six, the Iran contra scandals saw a key

1546
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:48,160
Speaker 9: figures who had shielded Noyeka previously be removed from their positions.

1547
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:51,160
Speaker 9: At the same time, the crack co key and panic

1548
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:58,040
Speaker 9: took over US politics again a very racialized situation. Congress

1549
01:29:58,040 --> 01:30:02,040
Speaker 9: had passed sweeping anti drug laws, mandatory minimum sentences, and

1550
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:05,200
Speaker 9: the media was freeing this whole drug problem as a foreign,

1551
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:13,840
Speaker 9: racial black threat. Yeah, Noriego, being a Panamdian dictator, ended

1552
01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:17,880
Speaker 9: up being a very useful prop villain of sorts for

1553
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:22,360
Speaker 9: the burgeoning war on drugs. So in February nineteen eighty eight,

1554
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:27,080
Speaker 9: US Grand Juries in Miami and Tampa indicted Noriega for

1555
01:30:27,200 --> 01:30:30,400
Speaker 9: drug trafficking linked to activities from nineteen eighty two to

1556
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:35,639
Speaker 9: nineteen eighty four. Sanctions followed within weeks, supposedly to force amount,

1557
01:30:36,120 --> 01:30:39,160
Speaker 9: but they didn't. The sanctions called shortages. You can only

1558
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:43,439
Speaker 9: collapse and suffering among ordinary Panamanians. Yet Noriega stayed in

1559
01:30:43,520 --> 01:30:49,160
Speaker 9: power used the crisis to justify emergency measures and nationalist rhetoric,

1560
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:54,160
Speaker 9: as is usually the response. I realize with US inflicted

1561
01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:59,160
Speaker 9: sanctions they end up creating almost a support base right

1562
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:02,439
Speaker 9: for the administration and power, because you know you're trying

1563
01:31:02,439 --> 01:31:05,040
Speaker 9: to make the people suffer and it said people end

1564
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:08,439
Speaker 9: up standing with their government even if they have critiques

1565
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:09,200
Speaker 9: of that government.

1566
01:31:09,520 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, because they don't want to become another like

1567
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:14,639
Speaker 4: vassal state. And especially in Panama, right, like they've they've

1568
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:17,320
Speaker 4: already been there once or like look at what's happening

1569
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:20,960
Speaker 4: right now in Iran, right, like yeah, HARMANI it's literally

1570
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:24,000
Speaker 4: like he's literally tweeting that the people protesting and Donald

1571
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:25,040
Speaker 4: Trump's supporters.

1572
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:25,400
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1573
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:25,760
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1574
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:27,439
Speaker 9: And the thing is that they're always going to be

1575
01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:30,040
Speaker 9: all types of people in any protests, And I wish

1576
01:31:30,080 --> 01:31:32,880
Speaker 9: why people realize that. Yeah, you know, people tend to

1577
01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:34,720
Speaker 9: take like one or two figures or one of two

1578
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:37,880
Speaker 9: pictures in any particular protest and see, oh look they

1579
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:39,880
Speaker 9: are doing this. That means the entire protests like this.

1580
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:43,439
Speaker 9: It's like no. Protests tend to I think, invite a

1581
01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:48,000
Speaker 9: variety of positions, perspectives, actors into the free.

1582
01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:48,759
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1583
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:51,640
Speaker 4: By their nature, they're large gatherings of people, right, Like,

1584
01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:54,639
Speaker 4: they're not going to be a monolith. People will always

1585
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:57,400
Speaker 4: seek to either represent protests in one way or represent

1586
01:31:57,439 --> 01:32:00,080
Speaker 4: themselves as controlling a protest when they have not done so.

1587
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:03,320
Speaker 4: But for the most part, they're very heterogeneous.

1588
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:08,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, the monolithizing of protests, including in this case with Iran.

1589
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:12,000
Speaker 9: I think it's a very clear example of how useful

1590
01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:15,479
Speaker 9: that is for every side of a conflict. Yes, because

1591
01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:17,759
Speaker 9: you know, the protests can be treated as a monolith

1592
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:21,320
Speaker 9: by communee and by the Iranian government, you know, to

1593
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:23,640
Speaker 9: say there and say these are enemies from within, you know,

1594
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:27,000
Speaker 9: these are these are Zionists backed and the thing. And

1595
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:30,360
Speaker 9: then of course the Israelis could also try and stake

1596
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:32,360
Speaker 9: a claim on this and say, yeah, this is all people.

1597
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:35,640
Speaker 9: And you know, I'm sure they're probably MASAD agents on

1598
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 9: the ground, as they are in most protest situations, not

1599
01:32:39,320 --> 01:32:43,919
Speaker 9: necessarily massadity agents, but intelligence service agents in general, from

1600
01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:45,320
Speaker 9: agencies around the world.

1601
01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:45,840
Speaker 5: Sure.

1602
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 9: Yeah, but you know, you could always pick and choose

1603
01:32:48,479 --> 01:32:52,280
Speaker 9: and create your own framen based on which aspects of

1604
01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:54,599
Speaker 9: the truth you want to focus on. But that's why

1605
01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:58,400
Speaker 9: I think our solidarity has streaming in with people and

1606
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:00,240
Speaker 9: not with states.

1607
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:03,080
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it seems to be a fundamental issue affecting

1608
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:06,360
Speaker 4: much of the Internet left in the United States, so

1609
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:09,519
Speaker 4: their solidarity appeased to only be to states and not

1610
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:12,280
Speaker 4: to people. Right. We see that in Iran or Venezuela,

1611
01:33:12,439 --> 01:33:16,479
Speaker 4: or Russia or any anywhere else really like this sort

1612
01:33:16,479 --> 01:33:20,800
Speaker 4: of internet tanky leftism likes to talk about.

1613
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:33,320
Speaker 14: Yeah, so we.

1614
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:36,800
Speaker 9: Saw that kind of upswing of nationalistic further following those

1615
01:33:36,880 --> 01:33:42,639
Speaker 9: US sanctions, and the political situation in Panama was deteriorating rapidly.

1616
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:46,120
Speaker 9: No Dieger annulled the results of the May nineteen Ellion

1617
01:33:46,160 --> 01:33:51,000
Speaker 9: ninety elections after his chosen candidates were decisively defeated. Protests

1618
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:54,519
Speaker 9: followed the Panamine and defense forces crushed them, and the

1619
01:33:54,560 --> 01:33:58,440
Speaker 9: images of his opposition figures being beaten by his military

1620
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:02,839
Speaker 9: saturated US to the visions to reinforce the racialized image

1621
01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:06,760
Speaker 9: of the savage Panamania because many of the soldiers that

1622
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:10,320
Speaker 9: were doing the beating were black and brown, and the

1623
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 9: opposition figure in question was white, So they were able

1624
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:15,960
Speaker 9: to clip that and you know, create a whole narrative

1625
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:20,320
Speaker 9: around it that served their interests. Now, in October nineteen

1626
01:34:20,320 --> 01:34:23,800
Speaker 9: eighty nine, a coup attempt by Panamanian officers failed and

1627
01:34:23,840 --> 01:34:28,000
Speaker 9: the officers were executed in the US. Meanwhile, criticism of

1628
01:34:28,120 --> 01:34:32,240
Speaker 9: President George H. W. Bush had intensified, with editorials and

1629
01:34:32,360 --> 01:34:36,320
Speaker 9: senators accusing him of weakness for his failure to act

1630
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:41,000
Speaker 9: decisively against Noriaca, and oh boy, call a man. We

1631
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:45,280
Speaker 9: to go on and improve his prove his manhood, you know.

1632
01:34:45,360 --> 01:34:49,240
Speaker 9: So further motivation for what came next was Noriacer's nomination

1633
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:53,720
Speaker 9: of Thomas Duquet as the first Panamian administrator of the

1634
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 9: Panama Canal Commission. Bush did not like that pick, and

1635
01:34:58,479 --> 01:35:01,719
Speaker 9: if the US invaded, then they could pick who they preferred,

1636
01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:05,720
Speaker 9: So there was another motivation. The invasion was also motivated

1637
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:09,719
Speaker 9: by a desire to showcase the Pentagon's post Cold War mission.

1638
01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:12,320
Speaker 9: You know, the Cold War was weiganing at that point,

1639
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:15,280
Speaker 9: particularly with the fall of the Berlin Wall mayor months before,

1640
01:35:15,640 --> 01:35:19,200
Speaker 9: and so a new threat, a new boogeyman was needed

1641
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:22,800
Speaker 9: to justify US military action in Latin America, this time

1642
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:25,960
Speaker 9: in the form of the drug war story. And then

1643
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:30,000
Speaker 9: on December sixteenth, a U. S. Marine Intelligence udit ran

1644
01:35:30,080 --> 01:35:34,960
Speaker 9: a roadblock near Pameian military headquarters. Parmanian soldiers opened fire,

1645
01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 9: killing Lieutenant Robert Pass. Another U. S. Soldier and his

1646
01:35:39,200 --> 01:35:42,640
Speaker 9: wife were detained, and while the soldier was beaten, the

1647
01:35:42,720 --> 01:35:46,959
Speaker 9: wife was threatened with the rape. Within twenty four hours,

1648
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:50,960
Speaker 9: Bush ordered a full scale invasion on December twenty or

1649
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:54,479
Speaker 9: nineteen eighty nine, the United States launched its twentieth military

1650
01:35:54,479 --> 01:35:58,080
Speaker 9: intervention in Panama since eighteen fifty six, and by far

1651
01:35:58,479 --> 01:36:02,360
Speaker 9: the most violent. It was the worst destruction Panama had

1652
01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:06,800
Speaker 9: seen since Columbia's Thousand Days War. Eighteen thousand people lost

1653
01:36:06,840 --> 01:36:09,960
Speaker 9: their homes. At least five hundred and sixteen Panamanians were

1654
01:36:10,040 --> 01:36:15,000
Speaker 9: killed by official Pentagon counts until Army estimates, however, but

1655
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:20,040
Speaker 9: civilian deaths closer to one thousand jeez, and many believed

1656
01:36:20,040 --> 01:36:24,520
Speaker 9: that the true number was even higher. Entire neighborhoods were destroyed.

1657
01:36:25,040 --> 01:36:28,559
Speaker 9: El Toro Rillo, a poor, mostly black and Mestizo community

1658
01:36:28,600 --> 01:36:31,960
Speaker 9: built originally for canal workers, was bombed and burned to

1659
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:36,559
Speaker 9: the ground. San Miguelitos also hit and across the country.

1660
01:36:36,640 --> 01:36:41,400
Speaker 9: Thousands were detained in prison camps. Damage exceeded one billion

1661
01:36:41,479 --> 01:36:45,240
Speaker 9: dollars on top of losses for nearly two years of samshuns.

1662
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:50,640
Speaker 9: The US used overwhelming force, including stealth bombers, the bonnassaults,

1663
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:55,040
Speaker 9: and heavy firepower in densely populated areas, against a Panamanian

1664
01:36:55,160 --> 01:36:59,800
Speaker 9: force of only about three thousand trained soldiers. Noriego was

1665
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:04,640
Speaker 9: jared flew into the United States, tried and imprisoned, and

1666
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:07,960
Speaker 9: as Lindsay Poland writes, quote, the names of the twenty

1667
01:37:08,000 --> 01:37:11,759
Speaker 9: five US soldiers killed during the invasion ruled across TV

1668
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:16,040
Speaker 9: screens around the world. He had a register of Panamanians

1669
01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:20,000
Speaker 9: killed during the invasion has never been published even in

1670
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:22,000
Speaker 9: Latin America. End quote.

1671
01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:26,599
Speaker 4: Jeez, when no Diega like sought refuge in the Vatican

1672
01:37:26,600 --> 01:37:29,519
Speaker 4: embassy for a while, I understand that they played like

1673
01:37:29,600 --> 01:37:33,600
Speaker 4: You Two music NonStop to force him to capitulate the

1674
01:37:33,720 --> 01:37:39,800
Speaker 4: PID what Yeah, yeah, yeah, they used YouTube and from

1675
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:40,599
Speaker 4: other stuff too, But.

1676
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:44,639
Speaker 9: I'm pretty sure my age here that just before my time,

1677
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:48,120
Speaker 9: this was the band that was forced onto all the

1678
01:37:48,200 --> 01:37:49,679
Speaker 9: iPods and stuff, right.

1679
01:37:49,720 --> 01:37:53,040
Speaker 4: Yes, that's right, yeah, yeah, this was yeah, and prepped

1680
01:37:53,040 --> 01:37:57,519
Speaker 4: a parallel operation. Maybe again they would maybe that was

1681
01:37:57,560 --> 01:38:01,320
Speaker 4: a CIA of Yeah Bonner, the guy who talked to

1682
01:38:01,320 --> 01:38:03,040
Speaker 4: me a game and then never pays his taxes in

1683
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:05,880
Speaker 4: Ireland also part of the invasion of Panama.

1684
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:08,639
Speaker 9: He had a critical role in US intervention.

1685
01:38:09,520 --> 01:38:11,280
Speaker 4: Yeah wait until I find it. I bet there was

1686
01:38:11,320 --> 01:38:13,439
Speaker 4: some band I like as well, but You Two is

1687
01:38:13,479 --> 01:38:14,679
Speaker 4: the one that sticks in my mind.

1688
01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:21,479
Speaker 9: The humanity if there has to be a walker. Yeah,

1689
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:25,479
Speaker 9: so in all seriousness. Though Noriego was not a good

1690
01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:28,160
Speaker 9: guy by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't

1691
01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:32,559
Speaker 9: know why people feel this, this compulsion to try and

1692
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:38,000
Speaker 9: rehability figures that have been targeted by US imperial suggression.

1693
01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:41,479
Speaker 9: You know, you can condemn US superior suggression without carrying

1694
01:38:41,520 --> 01:38:47,920
Speaker 9: water for their image, right. Yeah, Now, Noriego was not

1695
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 9: a good guy, but he was not unusual. I think,

1696
01:38:51,040 --> 01:38:53,680
Speaker 9: if anything, you can point out the hypocrisy of the

1697
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:59,479
Speaker 9: United States in this you know, selective outreach. Yeah, because

1698
01:38:59,479 --> 01:39:03,000
Speaker 9: at the very same moment, our wills atrocities were being

1699
01:39:03,040 --> 01:39:07,040
Speaker 9: inflicted by leaders across the region, carried out by regimes

1700
01:39:07,200 --> 01:39:12,519
Speaker 9: firmly integrated in Washington's could races. In Guatemala, for example,

1701
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:17,719
Speaker 9: security forces kidnapped, tortured, and raped Diana Ortiz, an American

1702
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:21,400
Speaker 9: nune before she managed to escape. But there's no evidence

1703
01:39:21,439 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 9: that this triggered outrage in Washington or cares for military intervention.

1704
01:39:26,040 --> 01:39:29,760
Speaker 9: And then in El Salvador, Gorilla forces launched an offensive

1705
01:39:29,840 --> 01:39:33,760
Speaker 9: on San Salvador, and the army responded by murdering six

1706
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:37,599
Speaker 9: Jesuit priests. The same forces went on to arrest, torture,

1707
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:41,240
Speaker 9: and intimidate international aid workers and church prisnel, but none

1708
01:39:41,280 --> 01:39:44,040
Speaker 9: of this was treated as grounds for invasion. Regime she

1709
01:39:44,240 --> 01:39:48,640
Speaker 9: enjoy emergency action. The US only removed Noriega because he

1710
01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:53,040
Speaker 9: wasn't convenient to their ends anymore, and the aftermath of

1711
01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:58,760
Speaker 9: that invasion was utter devastation. Panama was left without a

1712
01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:01,599
Speaker 9: function government until the US military stepped in to fill

1713
01:40:01,640 --> 01:40:05,679
Speaker 9: the vacuum after two or three days. American forces formerly

1714
01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:08,519
Speaker 9: took over the administration of the country under the Pentagon

1715
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:13,240
Speaker 9: Plan called Operation Blind Logic. U S officers were a

1716
01:40:13,320 --> 01:40:17,040
Speaker 9: signed to supervise twenty two Panamian ministries and state agencies

1717
01:40:17,360 --> 01:40:21,040
Speaker 9: effectively run in the country for months. At the same time,

1718
01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:25,280
Speaker 9: the military crippled what remained of Parama's civilian administration by

1719
01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:31,400
Speaker 9: season roughly fifteen thousand boxes of government documents. The invasion

1720
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:36,639
Speaker 9: permanently resheeted Panama's political reality, dividing it between those absorbed

1721
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:40,640
Speaker 9: into Noriega's nationalist rhetoric and those who had welcomed foreign intervenure.

1722
01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:43,639
Speaker 9: It also sent a clear message to every political actor

1723
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:50,559
Speaker 9: that Panama's sovereignty was conditional on their cooperation with the US. Meanwhile,

1724
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:53,320
Speaker 9: in the US, there was baillium murmur against the government's

1725
01:40:53,320 --> 01:40:57,440
Speaker 9: claimed right to invade Panama, removed its government, dismantle its military,

1726
01:40:57,720 --> 01:41:01,480
Speaker 9: and infect costs on Panama's poor, black and Mestizo communities.

1727
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:05,120
Speaker 9: The US kind of moved on from Panama after the vision.

1728
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:09,320
Speaker 9: I mean, they continued to meddle, intervene, but they've basically

1729
01:41:09,320 --> 01:41:11,400
Speaker 9: gotten what they wanted at that point, which was the

1730
01:41:11,439 --> 01:41:14,000
Speaker 9: removal of someone who was not going to cooperate with

1731
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:17,479
Speaker 9: them anymore. Unless you believe that they disrupted the drug

1732
01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:21,360
Speaker 9: trade with the arrest of Doriego, Panama continued to function

1733
01:41:21,439 --> 01:41:24,120
Speaker 9: as a transit point for cocaine and a center for

1734
01:41:24,200 --> 01:41:38,559
Speaker 9: money laundering at basically the same scale as before. So finally,

1735
01:41:39,040 --> 01:41:43,599
Speaker 9: what exactly is the connection with Venezuela. If any James

1736
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:43,920
Speaker 9: you want to.

1737
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:48,280
Speaker 4: Go first, I mean, there's a very obvious parallel in

1738
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:50,200
Speaker 4: that they have deposed a leader that you don't need

1739
01:41:50,200 --> 01:41:52,560
Speaker 4: to go carry water for the guy they'd deposed. You

1740
01:41:52,600 --> 01:41:55,320
Speaker 4: could say something is bad without like the person who

1741
01:41:55,439 --> 01:41:58,559
Speaker 4: happened to does not therefore become a perfect angel. Things

1742
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:03,120
Speaker 4: cannot be binary, that's so. But like it is wild

1743
01:42:03,320 --> 01:42:06,080
Speaker 4: that we look to what happened in Panama and We're like,

1744
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:08,320
Speaker 4: you know what we could do better than that. We

1745
01:42:08,320 --> 01:42:10,240
Speaker 4: don't even have to declare a war. We don't even

1746
01:42:10,320 --> 01:42:13,600
Speaker 4: have to do an invasion, right, we can just just

1747
01:42:13,720 --> 01:42:14,519
Speaker 4: kidnap a guy.

1748
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:17,400
Speaker 9: I mean, they did do an invasion. They kind of

1749
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:19,320
Speaker 9: bombed a bunch of people and stuff too.

1750
01:42:19,600 --> 01:42:22,000
Speaker 4: Yes they did. Yeah, they did an air Yeah they did,

1751
01:42:22,040 --> 01:42:25,479
Speaker 4: like an airborne invasion, I guess would be the way

1752
01:42:25,720 --> 01:42:28,680
Speaker 4: to describe it. Like and in a sense, right, like

1753
01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:31,040
Speaker 4: I'm happy that they didn't sort of go through the

1754
01:42:31,080 --> 01:42:35,280
Speaker 4: streets of Caracas with bombs and artillery and mortars.

1755
01:42:35,360 --> 01:42:38,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, the then do squashed earth yeah this time.

1756
01:42:38,680 --> 01:42:40,680
Speaker 4: But at the same time, like we have now, like

1757
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:43,479
Speaker 4: I've literally have spoken to several people in Bends Wear

1758
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:45,720
Speaker 4: in the last twenty four hours, right, and they are

1759
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:49,200
Speaker 4: in that situation now of not knowing, right, like who

1760
01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:52,519
Speaker 4: is the relevant authority the US in this case. It

1761
01:42:52,720 --> 01:42:55,559
Speaker 4: doesn't seem to have replaced the regime. They've just in

1762
01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:57,640
Speaker 4: again a parallel to what we saw in Panama, just

1763
01:42:57,720 --> 01:42:59,479
Speaker 4: installed another person, right.

1764
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:02,360
Speaker 9: Not even already install on the person, because I mean.

1765
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:05,800
Speaker 4: Let it trickle down and see how it rides.

1766
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:07,799
Speaker 9: Rodriguez was already in power.

1767
01:43:08,040 --> 01:43:10,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, like I guess maybe they looked to Rodriguez and

1768
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:13,320
Speaker 4: were like, because she's previously worked with Like I guess

1769
01:43:13,600 --> 01:43:16,200
Speaker 4: the analogy would be the Chamber of Commerce maybe something

1770
01:43:16,240 --> 01:43:19,960
Speaker 4: like that, like Venezuelan business interests. Maybe they would just like, yeah, well,

1771
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:22,760
Speaker 4: maybe we can force her to be compliant with what

1772
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:26,200
Speaker 4: we want. Like the only shit getting liberated is the

1773
01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:29,800
Speaker 4: oil in Venezuela, right, and it's actually not very good oil. Yeah,

1774
01:43:29,880 --> 01:43:32,120
Speaker 4: the same happened in Panama. Right, the US didn't go

1775
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:35,200
Speaker 4: to liberate people, that went to liberate the canal. It's

1776
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:40,200
Speaker 4: so disappointing to see people still look at foreign policy

1777
01:43:40,240 --> 01:43:42,840
Speaker 4: and binary terms. And like you said before, I think

1778
01:43:43,479 --> 01:43:45,719
Speaker 4: one of the things that the Venezuelan people I'm speaking

1779
01:43:45,760 --> 01:43:48,840
Speaker 4: to express deep, deep frustration with is that when they

1780
01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:52,800
Speaker 4: take a risk right and go online and share their

1781
01:43:52,840 --> 01:43:58,280
Speaker 4: frustrations with both Chavismoon and with the United States invading

1782
01:43:58,280 --> 01:44:01,280
Speaker 4: their country, they are told by Western leftists that they

1783
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:06,880
Speaker 4: must be either THA agents or pretend Venezuelans like Americans

1784
01:44:07,120 --> 01:44:09,560
Speaker 4: posing as Venezuelans.

1785
01:44:08,760 --> 01:44:11,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, or like Gusanos or whatever.

1786
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:15,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like there is this, I mean the case of Venezuela. Raight,

1787
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:17,000
Speaker 4: I have you thought it was great. You could have gone,

1788
01:44:17,120 --> 01:44:20,600
Speaker 4: you had two decades to go. I went when I

1789
01:44:20,760 --> 01:44:23,400
Speaker 4: was an undergraduate, right to see it, to study it,

1790
01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:27,360
Speaker 4: to understand it. It was formative in the way that

1791
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:30,439
Speaker 4: my politics are now, which is politics. It doesn't see

1792
01:44:30,479 --> 01:44:31,840
Speaker 4: human liberation coming from the state.

1793
01:44:32,320 --> 01:44:35,840
Speaker 9: It's not to say that there's nothing positive happening in

1794
01:44:35,960 --> 01:44:40,760
Speaker 9: Venezuela in terms of experiments with you know, communal initiatives

1795
01:44:40,840 --> 01:44:46,400
Speaker 9: and you know, cooperative economic projects, despite the us anctions,

1796
01:44:46,400 --> 01:44:49,160
Speaker 9: despite what they are, endurant as we young people have

1797
01:44:49,640 --> 01:44:52,559
Speaker 9: you know, managed to innovate and manage to create you know,

1798
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:56,800
Speaker 9: these kinds of projects where they can exercise their autonomy,

1799
01:44:56,880 --> 01:45:01,080
Speaker 9: exercise their voice and their self determination.

1800
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:02,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1801
01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 9: I think, of course that there's a level of i

1802
01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:10,480
Speaker 9: think co optation or attempts by the government of Venezuela

1803
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:13,960
Speaker 9: to use those projects and to integrate those projects into

1804
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:20,000
Speaker 9: their apparatus or to gain legitimacy to reals projects. Yeah,

1805
01:45:20,360 --> 01:45:24,799
Speaker 9: but that's always the situation on the ground is very complex,

1806
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:27,480
Speaker 9: and people are going to have different perspectives and feelings

1807
01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:32,759
Speaker 9: on the levels of government's involvement in their communes and whatnot.

1808
01:45:33,680 --> 01:45:38,360
Speaker 9: I think the best outcome for Venezuelan's would have been,

1809
01:45:39,240 --> 01:45:42,479
Speaker 9: of course, primarily the lifting of US sanctions. Yeah, and

1810
01:45:42,760 --> 01:45:48,519
Speaker 9: you know, secondarily their own self directed liberation from the

1811
01:45:48,600 --> 01:45:52,760
Speaker 9: imposition of the government on their projects. But you know,

1812
01:45:52,800 --> 01:45:55,439
Speaker 9: there are those who have those projects who support the

1813
01:45:55,479 --> 01:45:58,599
Speaker 9: government's involvement, who get received funding and that kind of thing.

1814
01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:01,559
Speaker 4: So it's like, like you say, right, that these things

1815
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:05,479
Speaker 4: aren't binaries. It's not like always good, always bad. But

1816
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:08,559
Speaker 4: as you said, right, like our slodargy should be with

1817
01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:11,639
Speaker 4: the Venezuelan people. They should be the ones who get

1818
01:46:11,680 --> 01:46:13,440
Speaker 4: to decide who rules Venezuela.

1819
01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:15,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, even if I disagree with that, Yeah,

1820
01:46:16,120 --> 01:46:18,000
Speaker 9: I still think ours be up to them.

1821
01:46:18,280 --> 01:46:20,040
Speaker 4: We should want a world in which should get they

1822
01:46:20,040 --> 01:46:22,000
Speaker 4: can choose, even if they don't choose what we want.

1823
01:46:22,080 --> 01:46:25,360
Speaker 4: Otherwise it's just another kind of colonial project, right, and

1824
01:46:25,400 --> 01:46:30,280
Speaker 4: I think that colonial impulse. And let's also be honest,

1825
01:46:30,320 --> 01:46:33,120
Speaker 4: there is a racialized component to the way that the

1826
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:36,400
Speaker 4: American left talks to people in the global South, right,

1827
01:46:36,800 --> 01:46:38,960
Speaker 4: and I think we should not overlook that that they

1828
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:40,920
Speaker 4: think that people aren't capable of either they don't know

1829
01:46:40,920 --> 01:46:42,599
Speaker 4: what's best for them and they need to be told

1830
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:46,600
Speaker 4: by someone else. Or that they're not capable of understanding.

1831
01:46:46,640 --> 01:46:50,720
Speaker 4: Like people in Venezuela are extremely aware for the consequences

1832
01:46:50,760 --> 01:46:53,559
Speaker 4: of US intervention. I lived with people who were tortured

1833
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:57,719
Speaker 4: in Chile. When I lived in Venezuela, many people came

1834
01:46:58,000 --> 01:47:01,840
Speaker 4: from fleeting Pinochet to Venezuela. It was a place that

1835
01:47:01,880 --> 01:47:05,439
Speaker 4: previously accepted migrants. Before migrants I ended up leaving in

1836
01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:08,759
Speaker 4: large numbers as they have now. People are extremely aware

1837
01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:11,320
Speaker 4: of what US intervention means. You know, they're much better

1838
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:16,880
Speaker 4: educated than most Americans on affairs in South and Central America. Yeah,

1839
01:47:17,000 --> 01:47:20,320
Speaker 4: they know the game that is being played here, and

1840
01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:22,920
Speaker 4: I would just like to see people afford them the

1841
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:26,519
Speaker 4: same humanity that they afford people in this country. Shouldn't

1842
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:28,680
Speaker 4: be that difficult, but it genuinely seems to be.

1843
01:47:29,000 --> 01:47:32,479
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think too, there's an element where you know

1844
01:47:33,120 --> 01:47:38,240
Speaker 9: them with their knowledge, we make calculations, We make decisions

1845
01:47:38,320 --> 01:47:42,880
Speaker 9: that you with that same knowledge wouldn't make. You know,

1846
01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:46,400
Speaker 9: because there's internal disagreement too the people who have the

1847
01:47:46,439 --> 01:47:50,240
Speaker 9: same knowledge, and they come to different conclusions about that,

1848
01:47:50,400 --> 01:47:53,160
Speaker 9: about the best course of action, about the best trade

1849
01:47:53,200 --> 01:47:56,480
Speaker 9: offs that they should be making, about how they navigate

1850
01:47:56,640 --> 01:48:00,160
Speaker 9: the conditions they've been placed in. Yeah, and I think

1851
01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:03,840
Speaker 9: there's room for those conversations we had without you know,

1852
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 9: erasing that ipe. We see your perspectives and favor of

1853
01:48:09,479 --> 01:48:11,680
Speaker 9: that simple binary that keep coming back to.

1854
01:48:12,439 --> 01:48:16,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, like there's no need for their condescension if

1855
01:48:16,600 --> 01:48:20,080
Speaker 4: we can give criticisms from a place of solidarity. One

1856
01:48:20,120 --> 01:48:22,200
Speaker 4: of the things that I learned when I was in

1857
01:48:22,280 --> 01:48:25,320
Speaker 4: ra Java, like, not everything that happens there is something

1858
01:48:25,320 --> 01:48:27,960
Speaker 4: that I think is perfect or good, right, And there

1859
01:48:27,960 --> 01:48:31,040
Speaker 4: are a lot of people there, including internationalists, right, Like

1860
01:48:31,080 --> 01:48:34,280
Speaker 4: there's an anarchist group Techoschin Analysis, who are an anarchist

1861
01:48:34,560 --> 01:48:37,080
Speaker 4: group within the revolution, and like the revolution itself is

1862
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:41,880
Speaker 4: not purely anarchist, right that they exist to give criticism

1863
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:45,040
Speaker 4: from a place of solidarity, and both groups wanting the

1864
01:48:45,040 --> 01:48:47,880
Speaker 4: other group to get better, right to have what they

1865
01:48:47,920 --> 01:48:51,960
Speaker 4: want to succeed, which is how our relations with these

1866
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:55,080
Speaker 4: other Like I guess liberation struggles in Venezuela would be

1867
01:48:55,080 --> 01:48:57,920
Speaker 4: a reasonable term to use, right, Like, our relationships with

1868
01:48:57,960 --> 01:49:01,040
Speaker 4: them should be that like we care about you, We

1869
01:49:01,160 --> 01:49:04,879
Speaker 4: hopefully both care about these things right about human liberation,

1870
01:49:05,360 --> 01:49:08,240
Speaker 4: about people being able to live with dignity and respect,

1871
01:49:08,439 --> 01:49:12,400
Speaker 4: and we could disagree, but we're ultimately disagreeing from a

1872
01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:16,840
Speaker 4: place of solidarity and support, not of condescension, which is

1873
01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:18,679
Speaker 4: what I see far too much. I think when I'm

1874
01:49:19,280 --> 01:49:20,480
Speaker 4: on the internet.

1875
01:49:20,840 --> 01:49:27,080
Speaker 9: Exactly exactly, so you know, Noriego and when we're all

1876
01:49:27,960 --> 01:49:31,439
Speaker 9: are not interchangeable. Parama nineteen eighty nine is not to

1877
01:49:31,520 --> 01:49:36,200
Speaker 9: Venezuela and twenty twenty six. The political systems, reachional dynamics,

1878
01:49:36,240 --> 01:49:40,120
Speaker 9: and global context are different, but the stories tooled to

1879
01:49:40,200 --> 01:49:44,679
Speaker 9: justify US and a venture ah pretty familiar. In Panama,

1880
01:49:44,720 --> 01:49:47,839
Speaker 9: the inviasion was framed as a moral necessity to stop drugs,

1881
01:49:47,840 --> 01:49:51,479
Speaker 9: restore democracy, and defend American lives. And this is in

1882
01:49:51,520 --> 01:49:54,000
Speaker 9: spite of the fact that US collaborated with that very

1883
01:49:54,080 --> 01:49:59,000
Speaker 9: same regime for years beforehanded Interestingly, in Venezuela's case, the

1884
01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:04,800
Speaker 9: justifications we also pretty similar. At first, stopping drugs, restoring democracy,

1885
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:09,120
Speaker 9: defending American lives, and just like with Panama, they faced sanctions,

1886
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:13,880
Speaker 9: diplomatic isolation, and economic pressure. But after the invasion of Venezuela,

1887
01:50:14,080 --> 01:50:18,320
Speaker 9: Trump just dropped the pretense entirely, just came out and

1888
01:50:18,360 --> 01:50:22,960
Speaker 9: said it, Yeah, we want their oil. So what what

1889
01:50:23,040 --> 01:50:25,720
Speaker 9: is the international community going to do? About it. The

1890
01:50:25,800 --> 01:50:29,240
Speaker 9: laws do not apply to us. In fact, we are

1891
01:50:29,240 --> 01:50:33,560
Speaker 9: going to withdraw from all of those international agreements that

1892
01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:36,320
Speaker 9: you know, threaten not interest. You could look this up

1893
01:50:36,360 --> 01:50:39,840
Speaker 9: that the US literally put this into.

1894
01:50:40,080 --> 01:50:42,880
Speaker 4: What was it, It's an executive order, right, leg as

1895
01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:46,760
Speaker 4: executive order, right, Yeah, they withdrawing from all of these

1896
01:50:46,840 --> 01:50:50,040
Speaker 4: international agreements that don't align with what they want.

1897
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:52,360
Speaker 9: And so in both the case of Panama and the

1898
01:50:52,360 --> 01:50:57,200
Speaker 9: case of Venezuela, American interests supersede all else. American laws

1899
01:50:57,240 --> 01:51:01,160
Speaker 9: somehow apply to the entire world, while the world's laws

1900
01:51:01,600 --> 01:51:05,040
Speaker 9: never apply to America, and the actual people on the

1901
01:51:05,080 --> 01:51:08,800
Speaker 9: ground in both cases don't matter at all. And also

1902
01:51:08,800 --> 01:51:12,320
Speaker 9: another parallel, the domestic American narrative of racialized fail and

1903
01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:16,720
Speaker 9: drug war hysteria can be found in both invasions. And

1904
01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:19,600
Speaker 9: just like Panama left the media consciousness after the invasion

1905
01:51:19,880 --> 01:51:23,520
Speaker 9: as though the problems were solved, I wouldn't be surprised

1906
01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:26,200
Speaker 9: if we see a similar situation play out after they

1907
01:51:26,200 --> 01:51:29,880
Speaker 9: get what they want out of Venezuela. Suddenly all the

1908
01:51:29,920 --> 01:51:32,559
Speaker 9: issues of Venezuela have would no longer be in the

1909
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:37,200
Speaker 9: picture because America got what they wanted. Courses development story

1910
01:51:37,640 --> 01:51:40,360
Speaker 9: so it remains to be seen. That's all I have

1911
01:51:40,439 --> 01:51:45,200
Speaker 9: for today. History does not repeat, but it's good to

1912
01:51:45,360 --> 01:51:49,120
Speaker 9: know because I find it often rhymes or power to

1913
01:51:49,120 --> 01:51:49,679
Speaker 9: all the people.

1914
01:51:50,439 --> 01:51:50,759
Speaker 14: Peace.

1915
01:52:03,800 --> 01:52:06,200
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Robert here. The episode you're about to listen

1916
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:10,600
Speaker 2: to is a keynote speech I gave at a symposium

1917
01:52:10,640 --> 01:52:15,240
Speaker 2: on combating Authoritarianism and Preserving Democracy for the Japanese American

1918
01:52:15,320 --> 01:52:19,200
Speaker 2: National Museum in Los Angeles, California. So you'll get to

1919
01:52:19,200 --> 01:52:22,920
Speaker 2: hear the speech that I gave them about what's necessary

1920
01:52:23,120 --> 01:52:25,880
Speaker 2: in order to deal with this new authoritarian way of

1921
01:52:25,920 --> 01:52:28,240
Speaker 2: overtaking the country. And then there's a Q and A

1922
01:52:28,360 --> 01:52:31,439
Speaker 2: with me afterwards, where I sit down with Anne Burrows,

1923
01:52:31,439 --> 01:52:35,080
Speaker 2: who's the President and CEO of the Japanese American National Museum.

1924
01:52:35,560 --> 01:52:39,439
Speaker 2: She's also an internationally recognized leader in human rights and

1925
01:52:39,479 --> 01:52:42,360
Speaker 2: social justice. She's a chair on the board of directors

1926
01:52:42,360 --> 01:52:45,639
Speaker 2: for Amnesty International. She was jailed as a political prisoner

1927
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:48,439
Speaker 2: for fighting apartheid in her native South Africa. She's a

1928
01:52:48,439 --> 01:52:51,280
Speaker 2: pretty cool person. So that is the episode you're about

1929
01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:51,680
Speaker 2: to listen to.

1930
01:52:56,560 --> 01:53:03,519
Speaker 15: All next keynote is getting to ask us some difficult truths. Authoritarianism,

1931
01:53:04,080 --> 01:53:08,880
Speaker 15: as has so often been said rarely announces itself all

1932
01:53:08,920 --> 01:53:14,479
Speaker 15: at once. It takes root quietly in policies that silence dissent,

1933
01:53:14,960 --> 01:53:19,600
Speaker 15: in narratives that divide, and in systems that normalize repression

1934
01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:23,840
Speaker 15: until it feels ordinary. And when we get to that

1935
01:53:24,000 --> 01:53:32,080
Speaker 15: ordinary point, it's complicity. So I know that our next

1936
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:38,160
Speaker 15: keynote is going to challenge us. We can trust that

1937
01:53:38,240 --> 01:53:43,479
Speaker 15: he will be provocative. We can trust that he will

1938
01:53:43,520 --> 01:53:50,360
Speaker 15: say some very strong things and it will be fantastic. So,

1939
01:53:50,760 --> 01:53:56,679
Speaker 15: without blabbering anymore, I am going to welcome Robert Evans,

1940
01:53:56,760 --> 01:54:00,840
Speaker 15: who is a journalist and author and the host of

1941
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:05,960
Speaker 15: the enormously popular and influential podcasts Behind the Bastards and

1942
01:54:06,000 --> 01:54:09,600
Speaker 15: It Couldn't happen here. He's also the author of A

1943
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:13,439
Speaker 15: Brief History of Vice and After the Revolution. He has

1944
01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:18,800
Speaker 15: that rare ability to connect history, power and lived experience,

1945
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:21,960
Speaker 15: and he will certainly talk to you about his lived

1946
01:54:22,040 --> 01:54:25,240
Speaker 15: experience in the trenches of Portland, and he'll do it

1947
01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:28,320
Speaker 15: in a way that's unsettling. As I've said, he's going

1948
01:54:28,360 --> 01:54:31,559
Speaker 15: to challenge us, He's going to be provocative. But that's

1949
01:54:31,600 --> 01:54:35,800
Speaker 15: why we've asked him to provide this keynote. So Robert

1950
01:54:36,080 --> 01:54:38,400
Speaker 15: please come on up, it's your moment.

1951
01:54:44,600 --> 01:54:46,560
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that, and thank you all

1952
01:54:46,640 --> 01:54:49,360
Speaker 2: for being here. I'm going to try to follow that

1953
01:54:49,440 --> 01:54:52,360
Speaker 2: up as best I can once the telepromter's ready here.

1954
01:54:55,320 --> 01:54:57,360
Speaker 2: So a couple of days before I sat down to

1955
01:54:57,400 --> 01:55:00,400
Speaker 2: write the speech that I'm delivering now, a friend came

1956
01:55:00,440 --> 01:55:02,520
Speaker 2: to me and asked if I had advice on which

1957
01:55:02,600 --> 01:55:04,800
Speaker 2: kind of gas mask she should purchase for her four

1958
01:55:04,880 --> 01:55:09,320
Speaker 2: year old daughter. As was noted earlier, we live in Portland, Oregon,

1959
01:55:09,400 --> 01:55:12,360
Speaker 2: and while my friend wasn't planning to attend any protests,

1960
01:55:12,400 --> 01:55:15,600
Speaker 2: certainly not with her daughter in tow, she was keeping

1961
01:55:15,680 --> 01:55:19,760
Speaker 2: up with developments in Minnesota, where ice officers had just

1962
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:22,600
Speaker 2: shot a man they described as Venezuelan in the leg

1963
01:55:22,760 --> 01:55:25,800
Speaker 2: and then tear gassed a neighborhood. One resident tried to

1964
01:55:25,800 --> 01:55:28,839
Speaker 2: get his family, which included small children and a newborn,

1965
01:55:28,920 --> 01:55:31,720
Speaker 2: out of the area, but they were gassed in their car,

1966
01:55:31,960 --> 01:55:35,320
Speaker 2: and then for good measure, ice officers hurled flash bangs

1967
01:55:35,400 --> 01:55:38,800
Speaker 2: into the vehicle. His six month old infants stopped breeding,

1968
01:55:38,960 --> 01:55:41,560
Speaker 2: and he had to beg repeatedly before officers would let

1969
01:55:41,560 --> 01:55:46,360
Speaker 2: an ambulance in to resuscitate his baby. The child was fine, now,

1970
01:55:47,040 --> 01:55:49,280
Speaker 2: so my friend was right to fear that her little

1971
01:55:49,280 --> 01:55:51,760
Speaker 2: girl might get gassed for nothing more than existing in

1972
01:55:51,800 --> 01:55:56,240
Speaker 2: the wrong neighborhood. Questions like this aren't theoretical to thousands

1973
01:55:56,240 --> 01:55:59,600
Speaker 2: of American parents right now, and they aren't theoretical to me.

1974
01:56:00,080 --> 01:56:02,040
Speaker 2: I was tear gassed more than one hundred times in

1975
01:56:02,080 --> 01:56:04,240
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, and I spent a fair amount of time

1976
01:56:04,280 --> 01:56:07,160
Speaker 2: pulling children and other civilians out of cars that had

1977
01:56:07,200 --> 01:56:10,080
Speaker 2: the bad luck to exist on the same city block

1978
01:56:10,120 --> 01:56:12,280
Speaker 2: as a man with a badge and a grenade launcher.

1979
01:56:13,000 --> 01:56:15,640
Speaker 2: And so it bugs me just a little when I

1980
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:19,120
Speaker 2: see Governor Walls tell protesters to stay peaceful and not

1981
01:56:19,240 --> 01:56:23,440
Speaker 2: take the bait. In fact, I'm left asking what do

1982
01:56:23,480 --> 01:56:27,240
Speaker 2: we think the bait is here? As best as I

1983
01:56:27,280 --> 01:56:31,120
Speaker 2: can figure it, armed and armored police officers blind firing

1984
01:56:31,200 --> 01:56:35,160
Speaker 2: chemical weapons that civilians is bait, while any response from

1985
01:56:35,160 --> 01:56:38,440
Speaker 2: those civilians beyond packing up and going home is taking

1986
01:56:38,560 --> 01:56:42,200
Speaker 2: said bait. Throwing back tear gas containers or anything else

1987
01:56:42,560 --> 01:56:46,200
Speaker 2: is somehow an escalation. So is standing against a riot

1988
01:56:46,240 --> 01:56:48,680
Speaker 2: line with a gas mask and a homemade shield to

1989
01:56:48,720 --> 01:56:52,600
Speaker 2: stop your neighbor from getting deported. Any act of resistance

1990
01:56:52,640 --> 01:56:56,520
Speaker 2: big or small is all the justification federal agents need

1991
01:56:56,560 --> 01:56:59,680
Speaker 2: to deploy more of the violence they were already using.

1992
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:02,960
Speaker 2: It's a neat little rhetorical game that liberals have let

1993
01:57:02,960 --> 01:57:07,360
Speaker 2: themselves become trapped inside. Playing that game lets them avoid

1994
01:57:07,440 --> 01:57:12,240
Speaker 2: answering one supremely ugly question. If your enemy controls the

1995
01:57:12,240 --> 01:57:15,760
Speaker 2: police and the military, and they've promised to destroy you,

1996
01:57:16,400 --> 01:57:21,080
Speaker 2: what does fighting back even mean? Up until the present moment,

1997
01:57:21,280 --> 01:57:24,880
Speaker 2: the answer given by prominent liberals has generally been you

1998
01:57:24,960 --> 01:57:28,360
Speaker 2: fight by voting, or by making your voice heard, or

1999
01:57:28,360 --> 01:57:31,320
Speaker 2: something similar. I have a good friend who tried to

2000
01:57:31,360 --> 01:57:34,200
Speaker 2: make her voice heard in twenty twenty. She is now

2001
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:37,600
Speaker 2: an early menopause in her twenties after being rendered sterile

2002
01:57:37,640 --> 01:57:40,960
Speaker 2: by chronic tear gas exposure. None of the officers who

2003
01:57:41,000 --> 01:57:43,840
Speaker 2: poisoned her, or thousands of other Portlanders ever saw a

2004
01:57:43,920 --> 01:57:44,960
Speaker 2: day behind bars.

2005
01:57:45,400 --> 01:57:46,200
Speaker 4: That would be wrong.

2006
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:50,640
Speaker 2: They enjoy qualified immunity. They're doing an important job one

2007
01:57:50,720 --> 01:57:54,320
Speaker 2: every person can agree needs to be done. The year

2008
01:57:54,360 --> 01:57:58,120
Speaker 2: my friend was gassed repeatedly, the highest paid Portland police

2009
01:57:58,120 --> 01:58:00,600
Speaker 2: officer was a man who had been caught and briefly

2010
01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:03,240
Speaker 2: punished for maintaining a shrine to the dead men of

2011
01:58:03,280 --> 01:58:07,560
Speaker 2: the waffen Ss on city property. The Portland Police Union,

2012
01:58:07,640 --> 01:58:10,760
Speaker 2: the first police union in the country, sued for him

2013
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:13,280
Speaker 2: to be reinstated and to ensure that he faced no

2014
01:58:13,360 --> 01:58:16,000
Speaker 2: punishment for this, and was brought back with full pay

2015
01:58:16,040 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 2: and benefits. So when you hear stories of Homeland Security

2016
01:58:20,400 --> 01:58:24,040
Speaker 2: hiding Nazi songs and their recruiting ads for ICE, remember

2017
01:58:24,440 --> 01:58:28,680
Speaker 2: it's not just an ICE problem. And yet some liberals

2018
01:58:28,720 --> 01:58:32,000
Speaker 2: and progresses will tell me state and local police aren't

2019
01:58:32,040 --> 01:58:35,800
Speaker 2: the enemy. ICE is just an aberin agency, and surely

2020
01:58:35,840 --> 01:58:39,080
Speaker 2: there's some democratic cheat code we can use to get

2021
01:58:39,080 --> 01:58:42,040
Speaker 2: the good guys in blue to help us take them down.

2022
01:58:43,160 --> 01:58:47,320
Speaker 2: So much of the unchecked authoritarian nightmare currently rampaging through

2023
01:58:47,360 --> 01:58:49,960
Speaker 2: our streets is the product of a system that views

2024
01:58:50,000 --> 01:58:55,400
Speaker 2: policing as sacred, officers as infallible, and protest as inherently

2025
01:58:55,440 --> 01:58:59,320
Speaker 2: suspicious and dangerous. This is the standard line, even within

2026
01:58:59,360 --> 01:59:01,560
Speaker 2: the halls of power or in the Democratic Party, and

2027
01:59:01,600 --> 01:59:04,120
Speaker 2: it is part of why regular young people in this

2028
01:59:04,280 --> 01:59:12,720
Speaker 2: country hate elected democrats. The people out, thank you, the

2029
01:59:12,800 --> 01:59:16,680
Speaker 2: people out in Minneapolis battling riot lines and sub zero weather. No,

2030
01:59:17,040 --> 01:59:20,920
Speaker 2: there's no help coming. The cavalry does not exist, and

2031
01:59:21,000 --> 01:59:23,680
Speaker 2: so They've had to build their own architecture of resistance

2032
01:59:23,760 --> 01:59:26,720
Speaker 2: off and on the fly, since immigrants and other people

2033
01:59:26,760 --> 01:59:30,680
Speaker 2: being targeted by ICE can't safely shop. Local businesses like

2034
01:59:30,840 --> 01:59:34,000
Speaker 2: Rectangle spelled like wreck is in a car Wreck Pizza

2035
01:59:34,400 --> 01:59:36,720
Speaker 2: have raised tens of thousands of dollars to buy and

2036
01:59:36,760 --> 01:59:41,080
Speaker 2: distribute food and other necessities. Gathering and handing out donated

2037
01:59:41,120 --> 01:59:45,280
Speaker 2: groceries feel safe, peaceful, and legal, but that's not how

2038
01:59:45,320 --> 01:59:49,440
Speaker 2: ICE treats it. Rectangle's fundraising campaign earned them a visit

2039
01:59:49,480 --> 01:59:52,200
Speaker 2: from armed ICE agents, who, for the account of co

2040
01:59:52,280 --> 01:59:56,080
Speaker 2: owner Brianna Evans no relation, stormed up on our door

2041
01:59:56,160 --> 01:59:59,360
Speaker 2: to try to get in. Thankfully, members of the neighborhood

2042
01:59:59,360 --> 02:00:01,680
Speaker 2: had been standing guard. They were able to raise a

2043
02:00:01,720 --> 02:00:04,640
Speaker 2: significant force of locals to swarm and chase off ICE,

2044
02:00:04,920 --> 02:00:07,040
Speaker 2: who tried to gas the neighborhood as they were leaving,

2045
02:00:07,080 --> 02:00:10,200
Speaker 2: only to have their munitions kicked back at them. This

2046
02:00:10,240 --> 02:00:12,680
Speaker 2: is one small example of the kind of networks of

2047
02:00:12,760 --> 02:00:15,320
Speaker 2: aid and resistance that are evolving on the ground right

2048
02:00:15,360 --> 02:00:18,440
Speaker 2: now as I speak. Another example that arose in the

2049
02:00:18,440 --> 02:00:21,840
Speaker 2: wake of renee Goods murder is ice Watch, an informally

2050
02:00:22,000 --> 02:00:25,240
Speaker 2: organized network that activates members of the community when ICE

2051
02:00:25,280 --> 02:00:28,840
Speaker 2: shows up in their area. The logic behind ICE watch

2052
02:00:28,920 --> 02:00:31,280
Speaker 2: is that these federal agents will be less likely to

2053
02:00:31,360 --> 02:00:34,560
Speaker 2: engage in extreme acts of violence while surrounded by crowds

2054
02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:37,240
Speaker 2: of citizens following them and trying to wear them down

2055
02:00:37,280 --> 02:00:40,520
Speaker 2: with shame. This is a good tactic, and we here

2056
02:00:40,640 --> 02:00:44,000
Speaker 2: might rightly consider it a non violent tactic. But the

2057
02:00:44,040 --> 02:00:48,360
Speaker 2: federal government does not remember Renee Good was shot and

2058
02:00:48,440 --> 02:00:53,000
Speaker 2: killed for participating in exactly this kind of activism. Through

2059
02:00:53,040 --> 02:00:56,480
Speaker 2: mouthpieces like Stephen Miller, the Trump administration has made their

2060
02:00:56,520 --> 02:01:00,720
Speaker 2: stance very clear. Anyone impeding the actions of lawelaw enforcement

2061
02:01:00,840 --> 02:01:03,800
Speaker 2: is a terrorist. Waving a sign or filming an ICE

2062
02:01:03,840 --> 02:01:06,440
Speaker 2: agent makes you just as much a terrorist as someone

2063
02:01:06,440 --> 02:01:09,839
Speaker 2: who breaks a window or throws a rock. You cannot

2064
02:01:09,960 --> 02:01:13,640
Speaker 2: be so well behaved and appropriate in your resistance that

2065
02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:17,560
Speaker 2: this government will not consider you a valid target. And

2066
02:01:17,640 --> 02:01:21,000
Speaker 2: yet again and again I see no spine or backbone

2067
02:01:21,040 --> 02:01:23,400
Speaker 2: from the men setting themselves up as the future of

2068
02:01:23,560 --> 02:01:27,360
Speaker 2: resistance to Trump. Gavin Newsom can't even stick to his

2069
02:01:27,360 --> 02:01:29,880
Speaker 2: own guns in his own podcast on whether or not

2070
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:34,560
Speaker 2: ICE is terrorizing Americans. Senator Corey Booker's big recent suggestion

2071
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:38,120
Speaker 2: was more training for ice agents, as if the men

2072
02:01:38,160 --> 02:01:42,120
Speaker 2: brutalizing our neighbors aren't doing exactly what they trained to do.

2073
02:01:43,560 --> 02:01:47,040
Speaker 2: About a year after Joe Biden's inauguration, I found myself

2074
02:01:47,120 --> 02:01:49,480
Speaker 2: up in the woods of rural Washington, an hour or

2075
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:52,640
Speaker 2: so outside of Seattle, doing firearm training with a group

2076
02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:55,240
Speaker 2: of leftist side met during the twenty twenty protest. And

2077
02:01:55,840 --> 02:01:57,560
Speaker 2: I know that kind of thing makes a lot of

2078
02:01:57,600 --> 02:02:01,440
Speaker 2: people here uncomfortable, and a number of things about our

2079
02:02:01,480 --> 02:02:05,000
Speaker 2: shared future might make you uncomfortable. During a break in

2080
02:02:05,040 --> 02:02:07,400
Speaker 2: the activity, I sat down for a smoke with a

2081
02:02:07,400 --> 02:02:09,760
Speaker 2: guy who'd spent the last several years teaching himself to

2082
02:02:09,800 --> 02:02:13,040
Speaker 2: be an armor or someone who repairs and maintains firearms.

2083
02:02:13,560 --> 02:02:15,760
Speaker 2: As he'd gained skill with this, he'd started to take

2084
02:02:15,760 --> 02:02:19,120
Speaker 2: his grade school aged daughter out shooting. He didn't like that,

2085
02:02:19,160 --> 02:02:20,920
Speaker 2: he felt like he had to do this, but as

2086
02:02:20,920 --> 02:02:23,560
Speaker 2: he informed me, I don't know that she won't have

2087
02:02:23,640 --> 02:02:25,440
Speaker 2: to fight for her right to be treated like a

2088
02:02:25,520 --> 02:02:28,840
Speaker 2: human being. Hearing that, I thought back to a woman

2089
02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:31,440
Speaker 2: i'd met a few years earlier in the bad lands

2090
02:02:31,440 --> 02:02:34,440
Speaker 2: of rural Syria. She'd been held as a slave by

2091
02:02:34,480 --> 02:02:37,240
Speaker 2: ISIS militants for two years forced into the kind of

2092
02:02:37,280 --> 02:02:40,000
Speaker 2: life that I hope is unimaginable to anyone sitting in

2093
02:02:40,040 --> 02:02:43,640
Speaker 2: this room. One night, as the Kurdish dominated militias of

2094
02:02:43,640 --> 02:02:47,400
Speaker 2: the SDF advanced on Isa's positions, she managed to escape.

2095
02:02:47,760 --> 02:02:50,040
Speaker 2: After a harrowing journey on foot, she found her way

2096
02:02:50,080 --> 02:02:53,080
Speaker 2: to the sdf's lines, where the first person she saw

2097
02:02:53,280 --> 02:02:55,560
Speaker 2: was a fighter from an all female unit holding an

2098
02:02:55,560 --> 02:02:58,800
Speaker 2: AK forty seven. She made the decision to join up

2099
02:02:58,840 --> 02:03:01,800
Speaker 2: herself that very moment. She wanted training and a gun

2100
02:03:01,800 --> 02:03:04,720
Speaker 2: of her own, because then, she informed me, no man

2101
02:03:04,760 --> 02:03:08,920
Speaker 2: could ever own her again. Now, politics isn't supposed to

2102
02:03:08,960 --> 02:03:11,640
Speaker 2: work that way in the United States. People should not

2103
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:15,600
Speaker 2: need to use weapons to defend their most basic civil rights.

2104
02:03:15,920 --> 02:03:18,440
Speaker 2: But can you look at the mobs of armed men

2105
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:22,080
Speaker 2: breaking into homes and businesses in Minneapolis and elsewhere, many

2106
02:03:22,160 --> 02:03:25,600
Speaker 2: sporting Nazi tattoos to go along with their badges, and

2107
02:03:25,720 --> 02:03:28,880
Speaker 2: tell me definitively that we're going to get through this

2108
02:03:29,000 --> 02:03:32,480
Speaker 2: without a fight. At the end of the Second World War,

2109
02:03:32,680 --> 02:03:35,000
Speaker 2: as the dead were counted to cries of never again,

2110
02:03:35,080 --> 02:03:38,160
Speaker 2: an attempt was made to create a rules based international

2111
02:03:38,280 --> 02:03:41,320
Speaker 2: order built around the bones of the last failed attempt

2112
02:03:41,360 --> 02:03:43,440
Speaker 2: to do so at the end of the First World War,

2113
02:03:44,120 --> 02:03:47,440
Speaker 2: and as we stand here in twenty twenty six, potentially

2114
02:03:47,480 --> 02:03:51,800
Speaker 2: looking at a US invasion of Greenland, watching military helicopters

2115
02:03:51,840 --> 02:03:55,160
Speaker 2: circle American cities while secret police snatch victims from their

2116
02:03:55,200 --> 02:03:58,720
Speaker 2: families and haul them off to camps and defortation facilities,

2117
02:03:59,080 --> 02:04:01,720
Speaker 2: we must admit that this second attempt to create a

2118
02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:06,120
Speaker 2: rules based international order is failing as well. We and

2119
02:04:06,200 --> 02:04:10,240
Speaker 2: our predecessors failed at building and maintaining a system that

2120
02:04:10,280 --> 02:04:13,600
Speaker 2: would stop all of this from happening again. There are

2121
02:04:13,600 --> 02:04:17,200
Speaker 2: many answers to the question of how this happened. The

2122
02:04:17,200 --> 02:04:19,920
Speaker 2: fact that the United States from the jump refused to

2123
02:04:19,920 --> 02:04:22,440
Speaker 2: be bound by the same rules we hoped lesser nations

2124
02:04:22,440 --> 02:04:25,480
Speaker 2: would follow was certainly part of the reason why our

2125
02:04:25,520 --> 02:04:29,200
Speaker 2: insistence that no foreign court ever judge American politicians or

2126
02:04:29,240 --> 02:04:33,240
Speaker 2: American soldiers was as narcissistic as it was insane. The

2127
02:04:33,280 --> 02:04:37,080
Speaker 2: creation of the Department of Homeland Security, the ongoing militarization

2128
02:04:37,160 --> 02:04:39,880
Speaker 2: of the border and border patrol, the granting of qualified

2129
02:04:39,880 --> 02:04:43,320
Speaker 2: immunity the police across the country, these were all further

2130
02:04:43,360 --> 02:04:47,200
Speaker 2: steps on our national road to perdition citizens United. Our

2131
02:04:47,200 --> 02:04:50,640
Speaker 2: refusal to punish Facebook executives over the cabridge, Analytica Scannal,

2132
02:04:50,680 --> 02:04:53,440
Speaker 2: and our failure to charge the people responsible for January

2133
02:04:53,440 --> 02:04:56,800
Speaker 2: sixth with treason are all further steps on that road.

2134
02:04:57,280 --> 02:04:59,839
Speaker 2: I could talk about what led us hear for hours,

2135
02:05:00,200 --> 02:05:03,879
Speaker 2: but all that matters is this. We the United States

2136
02:05:04,120 --> 02:05:07,920
Speaker 2: are not special. Our long democratic traditions, great wealth, and

2137
02:05:08,000 --> 02:05:11,520
Speaker 2: high opinion of ourselves have not protected us. The enemy

2138
02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:13,000
Speaker 2: is that the gates.

2139
02:05:23,720 --> 02:05:23,880
Speaker 9: Now.

2140
02:05:23,880 --> 02:05:25,920
Speaker 2: I don't mean to act as if all is lost,

2141
02:05:26,240 --> 02:05:29,200
Speaker 2: or as if the only path forward is bloody, internesting war,

2142
02:05:29,320 --> 02:05:32,200
Speaker 2: because I don't believe that the cause of rationality, of

2143
02:05:32,280 --> 02:05:35,520
Speaker 2: basic human decency still has a lot going for it.

2144
02:05:36,080 --> 02:05:39,240
Speaker 2: The vast majority of Americans hate this president, just as

2145
02:05:39,320 --> 02:05:42,680
Speaker 2: they despise the Republican Party and the vicious, cruel and

2146
02:05:42,720 --> 02:05:46,480
Speaker 2: soulless monster. The Conservative project has proved to be. Poll

2147
02:05:46,560 --> 02:05:49,680
Speaker 2: after poll shows this. We also see it in videos

2148
02:05:49,680 --> 02:05:52,839
Speaker 2: of grandfathers kicking tear gas cans back at ICE agents

2149
02:05:52,840 --> 02:05:57,480
Speaker 2: in Minneapolis. The bad guys are outnumbered. We can't forget this,

2150
02:05:57,960 --> 02:06:00,000
Speaker 2: and they certainly won't.

2151
02:05:59,600 --> 02:06:00,480
Speaker 4: But the bad.

2152
02:06:00,240 --> 02:06:03,240
Speaker 2: Guys also have guns and the legal right to use

2153
02:06:03,280 --> 02:06:05,440
Speaker 2: them however they want, whenever they want.

2154
02:06:05,640 --> 02:06:06,680
Speaker 4: On whoever they want.

2155
02:06:07,280 --> 02:06:09,880
Speaker 2: Just because they might lose an election doesn't mean they're

2156
02:06:09,880 --> 02:06:13,680
Speaker 2: handing in their badges or their weapons. So how do

2157
02:06:13,720 --> 02:06:16,480
Speaker 2: you plan to make them? One thing that gives me

2158
02:06:16,520 --> 02:06:18,560
Speaker 2: a sense of hope as I look around the country

2159
02:06:18,720 --> 02:06:21,600
Speaker 2: is that increasing numbers of liberals and progressives seem to

2160
02:06:21,600 --> 02:06:24,000
Speaker 2: be waking up to the idea that this is an

2161
02:06:24,040 --> 02:06:25,080
Speaker 2: existential fight.

2162
02:06:25,920 --> 02:06:27,520
Speaker 4: Perhaps the most hopeful thing I've.

2163
02:06:27,400 --> 02:06:30,680
Speaker 2: Seen recently is that in Minneapolis, a coalition of labor

2164
02:06:30,760 --> 02:06:33,920
Speaker 2: unions and community organizations have come together to call for

2165
02:06:34,000 --> 02:06:37,400
Speaker 2: a limited general strike that just so happens to be today,

2166
02:06:37,640 --> 02:06:39,880
Speaker 2: January twenty third, twenty twenty six.

2167
02:06:40,200 --> 02:06:44,760
Speaker 4: That's right, for a single day. There will be no work,

2168
02:06:45,000 --> 02:06:46,480
Speaker 4: no school, no shopping.

2169
02:06:46,560 --> 02:06:49,839
Speaker 2: Now, this is a demonstrative act when you might compare

2170
02:06:49,880 --> 02:06:52,880
Speaker 2: to the flexing of a muscle. No one involved thinks

2171
02:06:52,920 --> 02:06:55,320
Speaker 2: that one day of striking is going to be enough,

2172
02:06:55,720 --> 02:06:58,720
Speaker 2: But nothing less than a general strike has the potential

2173
02:06:58,760 --> 02:07:02,880
Speaker 2: to force concessions, even capitulation, from the regime, and you

2174
02:07:03,000 --> 02:07:06,400
Speaker 2: have to start somewhere. This is another example of an active,

2175
02:07:06,440 --> 02:07:10,200
Speaker 2: peaceful protest that will be considered anything but peaceful as

2176
02:07:10,240 --> 02:07:13,240
Speaker 2: soon as the regime feels threatened and people on the

2177
02:07:13,280 --> 02:07:16,800
Speaker 2: ground in Minneapolis know this. Whenever I talk to activists,

2178
02:07:16,840 --> 02:07:19,280
Speaker 2: whether they live in Los Angeles and Portland at Land

2179
02:07:19,360 --> 02:07:23,000
Speaker 2: of Minneapolis, Philadelphia, I see the same thing I saw

2180
02:07:23,040 --> 02:07:26,560
Speaker 2: in people in twenty twenty, a grim but very accurate

2181
02:07:26,600 --> 02:07:29,640
Speaker 2: assessment of what this fight is going to cost them.

2182
02:07:29,920 --> 02:07:32,280
Speaker 2: They are going to lose eyes and maybe limbs to

2183
02:07:32,360 --> 02:07:35,440
Speaker 2: riot munitions. They and their friends will be arrested, beaten,

2184
02:07:35,600 --> 02:07:39,640
Speaker 2: possibly tortured, and imprisoned. All of these things are happening

2185
02:07:39,840 --> 02:07:43,080
Speaker 2: right now to regular people who have done nothing more

2186
02:07:43,160 --> 02:07:45,440
Speaker 2: than speak up in lend aid and comfort to their

2187
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:49,280
Speaker 2: afflicted neighbors. They are willing to risk their lives because

2188
02:07:49,280 --> 02:07:52,760
Speaker 2: they know the hour is late. I have not seen

2189
02:07:52,800 --> 02:07:56,360
Speaker 2: anything that approaches this level of commitment from the liberal intelligencia,

2190
02:07:56,400 --> 02:07:59,919
Speaker 2: from most elected Democratic officials, or from the party itself.

2191
02:08:00,280 --> 02:08:00,520
Speaker 1: JB.

2192
02:08:00,640 --> 02:08:04,520
Speaker 2: Pritzker calls out accurately our present situation as being like

2193
02:08:04,560 --> 02:08:07,640
Speaker 2: the early years of the Third Reich, and yet, like

2194
02:08:07,720 --> 02:08:11,240
Speaker 2: every Democrat in power, he falls short of elucidating absolution

2195
02:08:11,520 --> 02:08:15,360
Speaker 2: beyond peaceful protest. And if I can get only one

2196
02:08:15,400 --> 02:08:18,160
Speaker 2: point across to you, let it be this, as far

2197
02:08:18,200 --> 02:08:20,960
Speaker 2: as the regime is concerned, there is no such thing.

2198
02:08:21,440 --> 02:08:24,680
Speaker 2: All dissent is violent. You attending the symposium as an

2199
02:08:24,720 --> 02:08:26,800
Speaker 2: act of terrorism, and they will punish you for it

2200
02:08:26,800 --> 02:08:28,640
Speaker 2: once they get through the people they see as more

2201
02:08:28,680 --> 02:08:32,760
Speaker 2: immediate threats. There's a book I come back to again

2202
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:35,320
Speaker 2: and again when trying to puzzle out my own path

2203
02:08:35,400 --> 02:08:39,360
Speaker 2: forward in these unsettling times. It's titled They Thought They

2204
02:08:39,400 --> 02:08:42,600
Speaker 2: Were Free, and the author was a Jewish American progressive

2205
02:08:42,680 --> 02:08:46,720
Speaker 2: journalist and educator named Milton Meyer. Not long after World

2206
02:08:46,760 --> 02:08:49,400
Speaker 2: War Two, in the early nineteen fifties, he moved to

2207
02:08:49,440 --> 02:08:52,080
Speaker 2: a small German village to get and know and interview

2208
02:08:52,120 --> 02:08:55,000
Speaker 2: a number of ordinary citizens about their involvement with the

2209
02:08:55,080 --> 02:08:59,000
Speaker 2: Nazi Party. Meyer called these men and women the little

2210
02:08:59,120 --> 02:09:02,800
Speaker 2: Nazis to contrast them from the big Nazis like Himmler and.

2211
02:09:02,800 --> 02:09:03,720
Speaker 4: Heidrich and Gerring.

2212
02:09:04,320 --> 02:09:06,879
Speaker 2: These were not people who had been movers and shakers

2213
02:09:06,920 --> 02:09:09,800
Speaker 2: in the party, nor had most of them been particularly

2214
02:09:09,880 --> 02:09:13,320
Speaker 2: active or early members. They were regular people who had

2215
02:09:13,360 --> 02:09:17,600
Speaker 2: latched onto Nazism late, but supported it enthusiastically because of

2216
02:09:17,600 --> 02:09:20,760
Speaker 2: the benefits it gave them. They Thought they Were Free

2217
02:09:20,960 --> 02:09:23,520
Speaker 2: is a chilling read for a number of reasons. But

2218
02:09:23,560 --> 02:09:26,320
Speaker 2: there's no competition for the most frightening passage in the

2219
02:09:26,320 --> 02:09:30,240
Speaker 2: whole work. For Meyer didn't only interview little Nazis. He

2220
02:09:30,320 --> 02:09:33,480
Speaker 2: sat down with people we might call little anti fascists.

2221
02:09:34,040 --> 02:09:37,040
Speaker 2: These were Germans who never bought into Nazism. They hated

2222
02:09:37,080 --> 02:09:39,280
Speaker 2: it from the jump. They even fought it for a time,

2223
02:09:39,640 --> 02:09:42,720
Speaker 2: but they were never central organizers or members of the resistance.

2224
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:44,920
Speaker 2: And when it became clear that the Third Reich had

2225
02:09:44,960 --> 02:09:48,000
Speaker 2: taken power, they faded into the woodwork to try and

2226
02:09:48,040 --> 02:09:51,680
Speaker 2: stay alive. Meyer sat down with one of these people,

2227
02:09:51,800 --> 02:09:53,959
Speaker 2: a friend of his who worked as a chemical engineer,

2228
02:09:54,080 --> 02:09:57,320
Speaker 2: and asked him, one day, tell me, now, how was

2229
02:09:57,360 --> 02:10:01,760
Speaker 2: the world lost. Here's how his re spont started. The

2230
02:10:01,800 --> 02:10:04,600
Speaker 2: world was lost one day in nineteen thirty five here

2231
02:10:04,640 --> 02:10:07,120
Speaker 2: in Germany. It was I who lost it. And I

2232
02:10:07,160 --> 02:10:10,040
Speaker 2: will tell you how. I was employed in a defense plant,

2233
02:10:10,120 --> 02:10:12,320
Speaker 2: a war plant, of course, but they were always called

2234
02:10:12,320 --> 02:10:15,560
Speaker 2: defense plants. That was the year of the National Defense Law,

2235
02:10:15,680 --> 02:10:18,600
Speaker 2: the law of total conscription. Under the law, I was

2236
02:10:18,640 --> 02:10:21,280
Speaker 2: required to take an oath of fidelity. I said I

2237
02:10:21,320 --> 02:10:24,160
Speaker 2: would not. I opposed it in conscience. I was given

2238
02:10:24,160 --> 02:10:26,720
Speaker 2: twenty four hours to think it over. In those twenty

2239
02:10:26,720 --> 02:10:30,480
Speaker 2: four hours, I lost the world now, This man, this

2240
02:10:30,600 --> 02:10:33,800
Speaker 2: friend of Myers, knew that refusing to give the oath

2241
02:10:33,800 --> 02:10:36,360
Speaker 2: wouldn't cost him his freedom, but it would cost him

2242
02:10:36,360 --> 02:10:38,880
Speaker 2: his job and make it impossible for him to get another.

2243
02:10:39,400 --> 02:10:42,040
Speaker 2: No one would hire a Bolshevik, and although he'd never

2244
02:10:42,080 --> 02:10:45,520
Speaker 2: been a Bolshevik, once the fascists take over, everyone who

2245
02:10:45,560 --> 02:10:48,200
Speaker 2: isn't a fascist becomes the worst thing they ever called

2246
02:10:48,200 --> 02:10:50,520
Speaker 2: their enemies. Today, I guess it would be far left

2247
02:10:50,560 --> 02:10:55,440
Speaker 2: extremists or antifa terrorists. Anyway, Meyer's friend explained that he

2248
02:10:55,600 --> 02:10:58,320
Speaker 2: thought he couldn't risk being tarred with that brush. Not

2249
02:10:58,400 --> 02:11:00,560
Speaker 2: because he wanted to escape with his fan and get

2250
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:03,120
Speaker 2: a job elsewhere, but because he genuinely wanted to stay

2251
02:11:03,120 --> 02:11:05,920
Speaker 2: in Germany and fight the good fight. He had many

2252
02:11:06,000 --> 02:11:08,920
Speaker 2: German Jewish colleagues and other dissident friends he wanted to

2253
02:11:08,920 --> 02:11:12,000
Speaker 2: be able to help, and he calculated, quote if I

2254
02:11:12,040 --> 02:11:14,320
Speaker 2: took the oath and held my job, I might be

2255
02:11:14,320 --> 02:11:17,280
Speaker 2: of help somehow as things went on. If I refused

2256
02:11:17,280 --> 02:11:19,600
Speaker 2: to take the oath, I would certainly be useless to

2257
02:11:19,640 --> 02:11:21,960
Speaker 2: my friends. Even if I remained in the country, I

2258
02:11:22,040 --> 02:11:25,520
Speaker 2: myself would be in their situation. And so he decided

2259
02:11:25,520 --> 02:11:27,760
Speaker 2: to take the pledge, making a decision I think many

2260
02:11:27,840 --> 02:11:30,160
Speaker 2: of us would have made, telling himself simply that by

2261
02:11:30,200 --> 02:11:33,080
Speaker 2: saying the words I swear to God, he was ensuring

2262
02:11:33,160 --> 02:11:36,480
Speaker 2: no human being or government could override his conscience, and

2263
02:11:36,560 --> 02:11:38,720
Speaker 2: he was as good as his word. Through the war years,

2264
02:11:38,840 --> 02:11:42,080
Speaker 2: Meyer's friend helped save many lives, using his apartment as

2265
02:11:42,120 --> 02:11:45,320
Speaker 2: a safe house for people fleeing the Third Reich. That's

2266
02:11:45,360 --> 02:11:48,560
Speaker 2: incredibly admirable. I think we can all agree. But Meyer's

2267
02:11:48,560 --> 02:11:51,600
Speaker 2: friend felt nothing but shame for his actions. He said

2268
02:11:51,680 --> 02:11:54,680
Speaker 2: later of the day he took the oath. That day

2269
02:11:54,920 --> 02:11:59,000
Speaker 2: the world was lost, and it was I who lost it. Now,

2270
02:11:59,000 --> 02:12:01,680
Speaker 2: Meyer was confused by this, saying what I'd imagine most

2271
02:12:01,680 --> 02:12:04,000
Speaker 2: of us would say in his position, Well, by taking

2272
02:12:04,000 --> 02:12:06,080
Speaker 2: the oath, you were able to save many lives. You

2273
02:12:06,120 --> 02:12:08,400
Speaker 2: were just one man, and the Third Reich was already

2274
02:12:08,440 --> 02:12:11,840
Speaker 2: in power. What more could you have done? Here was

2275
02:12:11,840 --> 02:12:15,440
Speaker 2: his friend's response. Of course, I must explain. First of all,

2276
02:12:15,520 --> 02:12:17,960
Speaker 2: there is the problem of the lesser evil. Taking the

2277
02:12:18,000 --> 02:12:20,040
Speaker 2: oath was not so evil as being unable to help

2278
02:12:20,040 --> 02:12:21,040
Speaker 2: my friends later on.

2279
02:12:20,960 --> 02:12:21,480
Speaker 4: Would have been.

2280
02:12:21,840 --> 02:12:24,680
Speaker 2: But the evil of the oath was certain and immediate,

2281
02:12:24,920 --> 02:12:26,800
Speaker 2: and the helping of my friends, was in the future

2282
02:12:26,840 --> 02:12:30,040
Speaker 2: and therefore uncertain. I had to commit a positive evil

2283
02:12:30,280 --> 02:12:32,760
Speaker 2: there and then in the hope of a possible good

2284
02:12:32,880 --> 02:12:35,680
Speaker 2: later on. The good outweighed the evil, but the good

2285
02:12:35,760 --> 02:12:38,160
Speaker 2: was only a hope, the evil a fact.

2286
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:40,560
Speaker 4: He went on to insist.

2287
02:12:40,280 --> 02:12:42,600
Speaker 2: That if he had refused to take the oath of fidelity,

2288
02:12:42,880 --> 02:12:45,080
Speaker 2: he could have saved the people later killed by the

2289
02:12:45,160 --> 02:12:48,960
Speaker 2: Nazi regime. And Meyer responded, logically, you don't truly believe

2290
02:12:49,000 --> 02:12:51,840
Speaker 2: that your lone refusal could have overthrown the Reich in

2291
02:12:51,960 --> 02:12:55,040
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty five, and his friend said, no, of course not,

2292
02:12:55,680 --> 02:12:58,560
Speaker 2: but then went on to elaborate, there I was in

2293
02:12:58,640 --> 02:13:01,160
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty five a p example if the kind of

2294
02:13:01,200 --> 02:13:04,160
Speaker 2: person who, with all his advantages in birth and education

2295
02:13:04,280 --> 02:13:07,320
Speaker 2: and imposition rules or might easily rule in any country.

2296
02:13:07,640 --> 02:13:09,720
Speaker 2: If I had refused to take the oath in nineteen

2297
02:13:09,760 --> 02:13:12,520
Speaker 2: thirty five, it would have meant that thousands and thousands

2298
02:13:12,640 --> 02:13:15,040
Speaker 2: like me all over Germany were refusing to take it.

2299
02:13:15,320 --> 02:13:18,240
Speaker 2: Their refusal would have heartened millions. Thus the regime would

2300
02:13:18,240 --> 02:13:20,600
Speaker 2: have been overthrown, or indeed would never have come to

2301
02:13:20,680 --> 02:13:23,160
Speaker 2: power in the first place. The fact that I was

2302
02:13:23,200 --> 02:13:25,720
Speaker 2: not prepared to resist in nineteen thirty five meant that

2303
02:13:25,800 --> 02:13:28,600
Speaker 2: all the thousands, hundreds of thousands like me in Germany

2304
02:13:28,600 --> 02:13:32,200
Speaker 2: were also unprepared. Each one of these hundreds of thousands

2305
02:13:32,280 --> 02:13:34,520
Speaker 2: was like me, a man of great influence or of

2306
02:13:34,560 --> 02:13:39,600
Speaker 2: great potential influence. Thus the world was lost. Now Meyer

2307
02:13:39,640 --> 02:13:41,960
Speaker 2: still doesn't believe his friend because he's bogged down in

2308
02:13:42,000 --> 02:13:45,280
Speaker 2: the historical details, the nitty gritty of the rise of fascism.

2309
02:13:45,640 --> 02:13:48,840
Speaker 2: His friend, who lived through that, is instead focused on

2310
02:13:48,880 --> 02:13:52,360
Speaker 2: the greater moral and historic truths behind it. These hundred

2311
02:13:52,440 --> 02:13:55,440
Speaker 2: lives I saved, he told Meyer, or a thousand or ten,

2312
02:13:55,480 --> 02:13:58,080
Speaker 2: as you will. What do they represent? A little something

2313
02:13:58,120 --> 02:14:00,680
Speaker 2: out of the whole terrible evil? And if my faith

2314
02:14:00,720 --> 02:14:03,240
Speaker 2: had been strong enough in nineteen thirty five, I could

2315
02:14:03,280 --> 02:14:06,640
Speaker 2: have prevented the whole evil. Now, the faith he's expressing

2316
02:14:07,120 --> 02:14:09,840
Speaker 2: isn't a religious belief per se, but rather faith that

2317
02:14:09,960 --> 02:14:12,960
Speaker 2: right and wrong exist, and that when people step into

2318
02:14:12,960 --> 02:14:16,000
Speaker 2: our communities hell bent on harming others, they should be

2319
02:14:16,040 --> 02:14:19,800
Speaker 2: stopped by any means necessary. So Meyer asks him, can

2320
02:14:19,840 --> 02:14:22,600
Speaker 2: you imagine anything your society might have done to sustain

2321
02:14:22,720 --> 02:14:25,120
Speaker 2: your faith, to ensure you and other Germans like you

2322
02:14:25,160 --> 02:14:28,600
Speaker 2: would have been prepared to resist. Meyer's friend realizes he's

2323
02:14:28,600 --> 02:14:32,360
Speaker 2: speaking about education, the very American idea that ideologies like

2324
02:14:32,440 --> 02:14:35,360
Speaker 2: fascism thrive in ignorance and can be banished by the light.

2325
02:14:35,840 --> 02:14:38,760
Speaker 2: He insisted, Meyer was barking up the wrong tree. My

2326
02:14:38,920 --> 02:14:41,320
Speaker 2: education did not help me, he said, And I had

2327
02:14:41,360 --> 02:14:44,040
Speaker 2: a broader and better education than most men have or

2328
02:14:44,080 --> 02:14:46,760
Speaker 2: ever will have. All it did, in the end was

2329
02:14:46,880 --> 02:14:50,879
Speaker 2: enable me to rationalize my failure of faith more easily

2330
02:14:50,960 --> 02:14:52,839
Speaker 2: that I might have done if I had been ignorant.

2331
02:14:53,280 --> 02:14:53,920
Speaker 4: And so it was.

2332
02:14:53,960 --> 02:14:57,200
Speaker 2: I think among educated men generally in that time in Germany,

2333
02:14:57,480 --> 02:15:01,160
Speaker 2: their resistance was no greater than other men's. And that's

2334
02:15:01,160 --> 02:15:04,080
Speaker 2: my challenge today to everyone at this symposium, and in

2335
02:15:04,080 --> 02:15:06,440
Speaker 2: fact to myself. We all have the benefit of an

2336
02:15:06,520 --> 02:15:08,840
Speaker 2: education where all the kind of people who sit down

2337
02:15:08,880 --> 02:15:12,160
Speaker 2: in nice rooms to discuss the issues. It is incumbent

2338
02:15:12,280 --> 02:15:14,600
Speaker 2: on us to look out at the people struggling in

2339
02:15:14,680 --> 02:15:18,320
Speaker 2: Chicago and Minneapolis and Los Angeles and Portland and Philadelphia

2340
02:15:18,360 --> 02:15:21,800
Speaker 2: and everywhere else and ask ourselves, how can I support them,

2341
02:15:22,000 --> 02:15:24,880
Speaker 2: and how can I go further? The answer to that

2342
02:15:24,960 --> 02:15:27,440
Speaker 2: question is going to be a little different for everyone here,

2343
02:15:27,480 --> 02:15:29,600
Speaker 2: but none of us can afford to hold on to

2344
02:15:29,680 --> 02:15:33,200
Speaker 2: our old ideas of what counts as acceptable and unacceptable protest.

2345
02:15:33,680 --> 02:15:35,960
Speaker 2: We're all going to have to become more comfortable with

2346
02:15:36,040 --> 02:15:39,200
Speaker 2: taking on risk, because the boundaries between what is legal

2347
02:15:39,240 --> 02:15:41,720
Speaker 2: and illegal are going to change on a daily basis

2348
02:15:42,160 --> 02:15:44,480
Speaker 2: as we prepare for what comes next. We could all

2349
02:15:44,480 --> 02:15:46,200
Speaker 2: do a lot worse than to take the advice of

2350
02:15:46,280 --> 02:15:49,800
Speaker 2: New Hampshire Episcopal Bishop Rob Hirschfeldt, who, during a vigil

2351
02:15:49,840 --> 02:15:53,240
Speaker 2: for renee Good, told his clergy get your affairs in order,

2352
02:15:53,560 --> 02:15:56,200
Speaker 2: make sure you have your wills written, because it may

2353
02:15:56,200 --> 02:15:58,880
Speaker 2: be that now is no longer the time for statements,

2354
02:15:59,120 --> 02:16:01,880
Speaker 2: but for us, with our bodies, to stand between the

2355
02:16:01,960 --> 02:16:04,360
Speaker 2: powers of this world and the most vulnerable.

2356
02:16:05,720 --> 02:16:06,080
Speaker 9: I got.

2357
02:16:18,360 --> 02:16:25,080
Speaker 15: Thank you, Robert for that amazing speech, inspiring, sobering, challenging,

2358
02:16:25,240 --> 02:16:28,360
Speaker 15: confronting all of those things. It sort of almost feels

2359
02:16:29,360 --> 02:16:32,160
Speaker 15: I didn't want to describe it because in describing it,

2360
02:16:32,240 --> 02:16:35,640
Speaker 15: I feel that it may reduce it to anecdote. It

2361
02:16:35,720 --> 02:16:39,039
Speaker 15: was so powerful, but you know, I was so struck

2362
02:16:39,200 --> 02:16:43,360
Speaker 15: by your reference to Milton Mayer's account of the man

2363
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:48,200
Speaker 15: who took the oath and who later said that day

2364
02:16:48,240 --> 02:16:51,040
Speaker 15: the world was lost and it was I who lost it.

2365
02:16:52,160 --> 02:16:54,959
Speaker 15: And I think that when liberals today, all of us,

2366
02:16:55,040 --> 02:16:58,279
Speaker 15: you know, we tell ourselves that we're choosing a less evil,

2367
02:16:58,959 --> 02:17:03,440
Speaker 15: we're staying quiet, or we're sort of staying within the

2368
02:17:03,480 --> 02:17:04,600
Speaker 15: bounds of you.

2369
02:17:04,560 --> 02:17:05,600
Speaker 4: Know, a particular reaction.

2370
02:17:06,440 --> 02:17:08,840
Speaker 15: I often ask myself the question, you know, what are

2371
02:17:08,840 --> 02:17:12,840
Speaker 15: we giving away in the process? You know, what compels

2372
02:17:12,920 --> 02:17:16,879
Speaker 15: people to cross from accommodation into moral risk? And is

2373
02:17:16,920 --> 02:17:20,320
Speaker 15: there a moment ahead where mass refusal could alter that

2374
02:17:20,360 --> 02:17:24,520
Speaker 15: trajectory or has that window already begun to close? You know,

2375
02:17:24,600 --> 02:17:27,600
Speaker 15: I think of my own, my own experience. You know,

2376
02:17:27,680 --> 02:17:29,640
Speaker 15: some people in the room know that I was a

2377
02:17:29,640 --> 02:17:32,840
Speaker 15: political prisoner in South Africa, and you know, I made

2378
02:17:32,879 --> 02:17:35,320
Speaker 15: a very conscious decision at a certain point, and it

2379
02:17:35,360 --> 02:17:39,280
Speaker 15: was a moral decision to get involved in the Antipotheid struggle,

2380
02:17:39,400 --> 02:17:43,320
Speaker 15: knowing what the costs were. But I would love to

2381
02:17:43,400 --> 02:17:46,879
Speaker 15: hear from you about what it is you think that

2382
02:17:47,000 --> 02:17:50,600
Speaker 15: compels people, as I said earlier on, to cross from

2383
02:17:50,640 --> 02:17:52,400
Speaker 15: accommodation into moral risk.

2384
02:17:52,959 --> 02:17:55,840
Speaker 2: I think that's a fascinating and an incredibly important question,

2385
02:17:55,959 --> 02:17:57,880
Speaker 2: and it's it's one I don't have a perfect answer

2386
02:17:57,879 --> 02:18:00,680
Speaker 2: to because there's a degree of mystery I've been a

2387
02:18:00,760 --> 02:18:04,480
Speaker 2: number of times with a crowd who you've seen it

2388
02:18:04,560 --> 02:18:07,000
Speaker 2: kind of come across their eyes and like confrontations with

2389
02:18:07,120 --> 02:18:10,000
Speaker 2: local police or with federal ass that we have the

2390
02:18:10,000 --> 02:18:12,040
Speaker 2: Mount numbered, and sometimes we have them Mount numbered and

2391
02:18:12,080 --> 02:18:15,240
Speaker 2: their AMMO just ran dry, and you see everybody in

2392
02:18:15,280 --> 02:18:18,000
Speaker 2: the crowd make a decision in that moment to kind

2393
02:18:18,000 --> 02:18:21,320
Speaker 2: of stay where they are, to not see what could

2394
02:18:21,360 --> 02:18:24,400
Speaker 2: come next, right, to not take a step forward, because

2395
02:18:24,440 --> 02:18:27,720
Speaker 2: they all have lives, because we have a functional enough society,

2396
02:18:27,760 --> 02:18:30,440
Speaker 2: because people have kids to get back to and jobs

2397
02:18:30,480 --> 02:18:32,560
Speaker 2: to get back to, and nobody wants to play act

2398
02:18:32,760 --> 02:18:36,000
Speaker 2: at an October revolution in between the middle of their

2399
02:18:36,040 --> 02:18:38,280
Speaker 2: work week. And one of the things that is a

2400
02:18:38,320 --> 02:18:41,600
Speaker 2: potential moment of change is when that the certainty of well,

2401
02:18:41,600 --> 02:18:44,400
Speaker 2: I have a life, right, and my friends have lives,

2402
02:18:44,400 --> 02:18:46,959
Speaker 2: and we all have something to get back to. When

2403
02:18:47,000 --> 02:18:49,200
Speaker 2: you have a large enough chunk of the populace who

2404
02:18:49,200 --> 02:18:51,920
Speaker 2: doesn't feel that way, who feels like, well, they've taken

2405
02:18:52,160 --> 02:18:54,520
Speaker 2: what I would go back to, They've taken any sense

2406
02:18:54,560 --> 02:18:58,240
Speaker 2: of security I have. There's no longer a point in

2407
02:18:58,280 --> 02:19:01,640
Speaker 2: me holding back because this is not holding back, and

2408
02:19:01,720 --> 02:19:05,160
Speaker 2: I don't have anything to go back to that's one

2409
02:19:05,200 --> 02:19:08,680
Speaker 2: of the things that causes mass and sudden flips. And

2410
02:19:09,000 --> 02:19:11,040
Speaker 2: you asked a little earlier, do I think the window

2411
02:19:11,120 --> 02:19:16,039
Speaker 2: is closing? And I think, kind of somewhat paradoxically, the

2412
02:19:16,080 --> 02:19:18,920
Speaker 2: window starts closing as soon as it opens, but it

2413
02:19:18,959 --> 02:19:22,240
Speaker 2: can never close all the way because there's not a

2414
02:19:22,280 --> 02:19:24,560
Speaker 2: lot of them. This is true in every country, with

2415
02:19:24,640 --> 02:19:27,920
Speaker 2: every state police force compared to the size of the populace.

2416
02:19:28,040 --> 02:19:31,000
Speaker 2: And so there's always a potential when enough people get

2417
02:19:31,040 --> 02:19:35,200
Speaker 2: angry and enough people get radicalized, that a system, even

2418
02:19:35,600 --> 02:19:37,760
Speaker 2: with the amount of violence behind it that ours has,

2419
02:19:37,840 --> 02:19:41,120
Speaker 2: can be toppled. That said, the longer we let this

2420
02:19:41,280 --> 02:19:46,000
Speaker 2: go on, the more they have wrapped their fingers around

2421
02:19:46,080 --> 02:19:49,760
Speaker 2: every aspect of policing injustice in this country, the more

2422
02:19:49,840 --> 02:19:54,480
Speaker 2: ability they have given their officers to utilize violence, to

2423
02:19:54,560 --> 02:19:58,520
Speaker 2: utilize advanced weaponry, to utilize drones and things like stingrays

2424
02:19:58,520 --> 02:20:02,480
Speaker 2: and whatnot against protesters. And so in that way, the

2425
02:20:02,560 --> 02:20:06,040
Speaker 2: window within which people can react and feel like they

2426
02:20:06,080 --> 02:20:09,160
Speaker 2: have a decent chance of getting away or of succeeding

2427
02:20:09,320 --> 02:20:12,440
Speaker 2: closes because the force deployed against them gets larger, which

2428
02:20:12,440 --> 02:20:14,960
Speaker 2: makes it a lot scarier and makes people less likely

2429
02:20:15,040 --> 02:20:16,119
Speaker 2: to take those risks.

2430
02:20:17,120 --> 02:20:20,240
Speaker 15: So so what does fighting back actually mean?

2431
02:20:20,760 --> 02:20:21,720
Speaker 5: I mean that that's.

2432
02:20:21,600 --> 02:20:23,800
Speaker 15: Really yeah, you know, that's a really I think that

2433
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:26,440
Speaker 15: that's a really important question because you know, as you

2434
02:20:26,480 --> 02:20:29,280
Speaker 15: spoke about in your you know, in your remarks, and

2435
02:20:29,320 --> 02:20:32,560
Speaker 15: we know so well that you know, when the government

2436
02:20:32,640 --> 02:20:36,120
Speaker 15: or whatever controls the police, they control the military, you know,

2437
02:20:36,200 --> 02:20:39,080
Speaker 15: and if that has identified you as being you know,

2438
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:41,879
Speaker 15: quote unquote to terrorist, regardless of you know, what the

2439
02:20:41,920 --> 02:20:46,920
Speaker 15: circumstances might be, what does fighting back actually mean? You know,

2440
02:20:47,040 --> 02:20:49,600
Speaker 15: what what is that resistance en compass? And we know

2441
02:20:49,680 --> 02:20:52,840
Speaker 15: that it can take many many forms. So I sort

2442
02:20:52,879 --> 02:20:54,959
Speaker 15: of want to push you a little bit more, you know,

2443
02:20:55,040 --> 02:20:58,840
Speaker 15: what does fighting back actually mean? But what for you

2444
02:20:59,080 --> 02:21:03,800
Speaker 15: feels morally defensible and what genuinely troubles you?

2445
02:21:04,680 --> 02:21:07,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess to start with if the question is

2446
02:21:08,040 --> 02:21:10,039
Speaker 2: what does fighting back look like in terms of what

2447
02:21:10,160 --> 02:21:12,320
Speaker 2: is an escalation from the ways in which we're currently

2448
02:21:12,360 --> 02:21:15,240
Speaker 2: fighting back that is still within the bounds of what

2449
02:21:15,400 --> 02:21:17,760
Speaker 2: most people on our side of the aisle would call

2450
02:21:17,879 --> 02:21:22,240
Speaker 2: like peaceful and morally justified if it's not legal, right, Well,

2451
02:21:22,240 --> 02:21:24,119
Speaker 2: one thing that comes to mind as a general strike,

2452
02:21:24,160 --> 02:21:25,920
Speaker 2: and in fact, the only thing that comes to mind

2453
02:21:25,920 --> 02:21:28,560
Speaker 2: that I think actually has serious weight. The weight to

2454
02:21:28,720 --> 02:21:32,920
Speaker 2: uproot a security state as powerful and established as ours is.

2455
02:21:32,959 --> 02:21:36,400
Speaker 2: The way to uproot a regime that says entrenched dis

2456
02:21:36,400 --> 02:21:38,840
Speaker 2: ours is a general strike. It's almost the only leverage

2457
02:21:38,840 --> 02:21:40,720
Speaker 2: that we have, which is why I'm happy to see

2458
02:21:40,760 --> 02:21:43,720
Speaker 2: them starting to explore doing it, and as a real thing.

2459
02:21:43,800 --> 02:21:47,120
Speaker 2: In Minneapolis, you get this thing online and Twitter, on

2460
02:21:47,160 --> 02:21:49,959
Speaker 2: Blue Sky whatever, where people will periodically be like, we're

2461
02:21:49,959 --> 02:21:53,360
Speaker 2: doing a general strike next week, Nobody go to workers shop.

2462
02:21:53,400 --> 02:21:54,640
Speaker 4: It's like, that's not how it works.

2463
02:21:54,680 --> 02:21:56,960
Speaker 2: You've got to you have to have the backing of unions,

2464
02:21:57,040 --> 02:21:59,080
Speaker 2: You have to have you have to have a lot

2465
02:21:59,160 --> 02:22:01,560
Speaker 2: of infrastructure set up to try and figure out how

2466
02:22:01,560 --> 02:22:03,080
Speaker 2: are we going to feed people, How are we going

2467
02:22:03,120 --> 02:22:04,920
Speaker 2: to keep people's lights on as much as possible, How

2468
02:22:04,920 --> 02:22:07,720
Speaker 2: are we going to provide people with the necessities during

2469
02:22:07,720 --> 02:22:11,080
Speaker 2: what will probably be an extended period of time out

2470
02:22:11,080 --> 02:22:12,840
Speaker 2: of work, and a time in which, if you're talking

2471
02:22:12,840 --> 02:22:16,200
Speaker 2: about a real general strike, a lot of the pillars

2472
02:22:16,600 --> 02:22:19,560
Speaker 2: that uphold daily life and our daily comforts will start

2473
02:22:19,600 --> 02:22:23,000
Speaker 2: to fail if it's an actual, functional general strike, And

2474
02:22:23,080 --> 02:22:26,200
Speaker 2: so you have to have systems built up for that,

2475
02:22:26,480 --> 02:22:29,160
Speaker 2: and it's one of the things people don't often think

2476
02:22:29,160 --> 02:22:32,480
Speaker 2: about when they're hearing these kind of big hitch ideas

2477
02:22:32,520 --> 02:22:36,320
Speaker 2: for resistance campaigns. One of my favorite examples of this

2478
02:22:36,520 --> 02:22:39,400
Speaker 2: just in terms of like the difference between here's the

2479
02:22:39,520 --> 02:22:41,240
Speaker 2: idea and here's the things we have to do to

2480
02:22:41,280 --> 02:22:44,720
Speaker 2: execute it. In Liberia, kind of at the end of

2481
02:22:44,840 --> 02:22:47,080
Speaker 2: the last really big period they had of like these

2482
02:22:47,160 --> 02:22:51,080
Speaker 2: kind of warring warlords, there was a massive protest campaign

2483
02:22:51,120 --> 02:22:54,040
Speaker 2: by women in Liberia that was I mean, it was

2484
02:22:54,080 --> 02:22:56,880
Speaker 2: basically pulled right out of Lizistrata. It was we are

2485
02:22:56,879 --> 02:22:59,240
Speaker 2: not going to have sex with our husbands, like, we're

2486
02:22:59,280 --> 02:23:01,720
Speaker 2: not going to do it. It was a mass resistance campaign.

2487
02:23:01,720 --> 02:23:05,120
Speaker 2: This has been written about. I know it sounds like Lizistrata,

2488
02:23:05,160 --> 02:23:08,200
Speaker 2: but it's a real thing that happened. And when they

2489
02:23:08,200 --> 02:23:10,400
Speaker 2: were considering how are we going to actually do this,

2490
02:23:10,480 --> 02:23:13,240
Speaker 2: they had to consider some really ugly realities, including the

2491
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:16,400
Speaker 2: reality of rape, and so a factor behind the scenes

2492
02:23:16,400 --> 02:23:18,720
Speaker 2: and figuring out how to organize this was how are

2493
02:23:18,760 --> 02:23:21,160
Speaker 2: we going to create networks to smuggle women out of

2494
02:23:21,240 --> 02:23:23,680
Speaker 2: dangerous homes and keep them safe for the length of

2495
02:23:23,720 --> 02:23:27,760
Speaker 2: this protest campaign? Right and when you're talking about what's

2496
02:23:27,760 --> 02:23:29,720
Speaker 2: going to be necessary for a general strike, it's a

2497
02:23:29,760 --> 02:23:33,040
Speaker 2: ton of illegalism, right, you know, everything from people shoplifting

2498
02:23:33,080 --> 02:23:35,320
Speaker 2: food to stop people from starving, but to the very

2499
02:23:35,360 --> 02:23:39,279
Speaker 2: fact that carrying out and participating in a general strike,

2500
02:23:39,320 --> 02:23:42,240
Speaker 2: if one gains any momentum, will be declared illegal by

2501
02:23:42,280 --> 02:23:44,560
Speaker 2: the regime. They will try to crack down, They will

2502
02:23:44,640 --> 02:23:48,039
Speaker 2: arrest ring leaders, they will put people in black sites.

2503
02:23:48,400 --> 02:23:50,840
Speaker 2: These are realities that have to be accounted for in

2504
02:23:50,879 --> 02:23:54,280
Speaker 2: the underlying planning, and I'm hopeful about the potential for

2505
02:23:54,360 --> 02:23:57,160
Speaker 2: something like that in twenty twenty eight. Now, when it

2506
02:23:57,200 --> 02:23:59,560
Speaker 2: comes to the stuff that really scares me, one of

2507
02:23:59,600 --> 02:24:03,240
Speaker 2: the things that scares me is what happens if we

2508
02:24:03,400 --> 02:24:07,080
Speaker 2: cross the point into which there is no longer any

2509
02:24:07,680 --> 02:24:11,400
Speaker 2: hope or talk of peaceful resistance, right. And you have

2510
02:24:11,440 --> 02:24:13,240
Speaker 2: to consider this when you have a large number of

2511
02:24:13,320 --> 02:24:15,520
Speaker 2: armed men saying we just need to kill all of

2512
02:24:15,520 --> 02:24:17,000
Speaker 2: the people who are on the other side of this

2513
02:24:17,040 --> 02:24:19,199
Speaker 2: thing which we have in this country right now. There's

2514
02:24:19,240 --> 02:24:21,760
Speaker 2: a lot of them, They have weapons, many of them

2515
02:24:22,000 --> 02:24:24,879
Speaker 2: are in the police, some of them are in the military.

2516
02:24:25,680 --> 02:24:29,720
Speaker 2: These are realities of our present situation, and that's scary

2517
02:24:29,720 --> 02:24:33,160
Speaker 2: to me because when you cross that line, there's no

2518
02:24:33,240 --> 02:24:35,840
Speaker 2: longer any question of like right or wrong. It's just

2519
02:24:35,879 --> 02:24:39,039
Speaker 2: a matter of like what can survive the onslaught, And

2520
02:24:39,640 --> 02:24:41,680
Speaker 2: that's I think the thing to try to avoid at

2521
02:24:41,720 --> 02:24:44,480
Speaker 2: all costs, because any sort of mass internescing conflict in

2522
02:24:44,520 --> 02:24:47,480
Speaker 2: the United States among the Americans, it'll kill is many

2523
02:24:47,480 --> 02:24:50,440
Speaker 2: people outside of the country because global food systems and

2524
02:24:50,480 --> 02:24:54,880
Speaker 2: global medicines to supply systems will collapse. Right, So we're

2525
02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:58,160
Speaker 2: talking about having governors call out the National Guard against

2526
02:24:58,320 --> 02:25:02,640
Speaker 2: federal police forces. I think about both the necessity of that,

2527
02:25:02,680 --> 02:25:04,520
Speaker 2: because you have to try to resist and you have

2528
02:25:04,600 --> 02:25:07,200
Speaker 2: to try to make it clear is there anyone backing

2529
02:25:07,320 --> 02:25:10,959
Speaker 2: up the people from this federal agency? Is there anyone

2530
02:25:10,959 --> 02:25:13,000
Speaker 2: at a state level? Is there any kind of resistance

2531
02:25:13,480 --> 02:25:15,120
Speaker 2: that the state is going to respect? You have to

2532
02:25:15,160 --> 02:25:17,560
Speaker 2: ask that question, but some of the answers to it

2533
02:25:17,560 --> 02:25:19,800
Speaker 2: can take us to really terrifying places. And I don't

2534
02:25:19,800 --> 02:25:21,959
Speaker 2: think we can avoid asking the question anymore. I don't

2535
02:25:21,959 --> 02:25:24,280
Speaker 2: think we're going to avoid a point at which some

2536
02:25:24,480 --> 02:25:28,440
Speaker 2: governor tries something like that, because Ice is going to

2537
02:25:28,480 --> 02:25:32,520
Speaker 2: continue grabbing, right, They're going to continue pushing what they

2538
02:25:32,560 --> 02:25:34,920
Speaker 2: can do in blue cities. They're not going to This

2539
02:25:35,000 --> 02:25:37,160
Speaker 2: is not the extent of the shit they're going to try.

2540
02:25:37,400 --> 02:25:41,720
Speaker 15: Sorry, no, you know, and I think it's also particularly

2541
02:25:42,400 --> 02:25:45,879
Speaker 15: terrifying we think of what the budgets are behind, you

2542
02:25:45,920 --> 02:25:48,800
Speaker 15: know that enables this, and you know, the budgets that

2543
02:25:48,879 --> 02:25:50,880
Speaker 15: are now about to be voted. I mean we're not

2544
02:25:50,959 --> 02:25:54,120
Speaker 15: just we're talking about billions and billions, eh, and it's

2545
02:25:54,160 --> 02:25:57,840
Speaker 15: just extraordinary. So you know, I mean again going back

2546
02:25:57,879 --> 02:25:59,840
Speaker 15: to my experience in South Africa and you know, this

2547
02:26:00,080 --> 02:26:03,080
Speaker 15: idea of a general strike, you know, what was ultimately

2548
02:26:03,200 --> 02:26:08,040
Speaker 15: the most effective weapon against the apartheid regime was mass mobilizing,

2549
02:26:08,120 --> 02:26:12,120
Speaker 15: mass organizing across the country, mass marches that actually that

2550
02:26:12,240 --> 02:26:16,800
Speaker 15: quite literally made it was a specific campaign to make

2551
02:26:16,840 --> 02:26:20,160
Speaker 15: the country ungovernable. And it was on every level. It

2552
02:26:20,240 --> 02:26:23,879
Speaker 15: was consumer boycotts, it was mass marches, it was you know,

2553
02:26:24,000 --> 02:26:27,480
Speaker 15: marches specifically targeted at the aparthe eight laws that broke

2554
02:26:27,520 --> 02:26:29,560
Speaker 15: the back of the apartheight laws. And it was that

2555
02:26:29,800 --> 02:26:34,640
Speaker 15: aided by incredible pressure from outside, from outside sanctions.

2556
02:26:34,840 --> 02:26:36,440
Speaker 5: Of course, things are very different now.

2557
02:26:36,840 --> 02:26:39,880
Speaker 15: But you know, this does take me to another question

2558
02:26:40,040 --> 02:26:42,440
Speaker 15: something that I've thought a lot about is you know,

2559
02:26:43,240 --> 02:26:45,920
Speaker 15: after this whole crisis, after this is over, you know,

2560
02:26:46,000 --> 02:26:49,320
Speaker 15: what are the consequences? What about accountability? You know, when

2561
02:26:49,360 --> 02:26:51,520
Speaker 15: we get to the other side of this, which we will,

2562
02:26:52,000 --> 02:26:54,000
Speaker 15: we will get to the other side of this. You know,

2563
02:26:54,080 --> 02:26:57,680
Speaker 15: what should that accountability look like? Is it an American

2564
02:26:57,680 --> 02:27:01,080
Speaker 15: truth and reconciliation campaign? You know, we had a truth

2565
02:27:01,080 --> 02:27:05,560
Speaker 15: and reconciliation campaign in South Africa and it was extraordinarily healing,

2566
02:27:06,520 --> 02:27:08,600
Speaker 15: but there was no restitution and at the end of

2567
02:27:08,600 --> 02:27:10,800
Speaker 15: the day, there was no justice. So what was the

2568
02:27:10,840 --> 02:27:15,840
Speaker 15: sort of transformational societal transformational aspect of that should we

2569
02:27:15,920 --> 02:27:20,520
Speaker 15: think about an American truth and reconciliation campaign? Is it

2570
02:27:20,600 --> 02:27:24,400
Speaker 15: something closer to Nuremberg? You know, who gain to be

2571
02:27:24,480 --> 02:27:29,640
Speaker 15: seen as the architects of this authoritarian movement? Who going

2572
02:27:29,680 --> 02:27:33,359
Speaker 15: to be seen as the architects of this anti authoritarian movement?

2573
02:27:33,800 --> 02:27:35,960
Speaker 15: You know, how do we as a democratic country or

2574
02:27:35,959 --> 02:27:39,680
Speaker 15: a democratic society, how willing are we to go to

2575
02:27:39,720 --> 02:27:42,760
Speaker 15: pursue those consequences? I mean, we've just seen how hollow

2576
02:27:42,840 --> 02:27:46,400
Speaker 15: that can be. You know, after January sixth, you know

2577
02:27:46,440 --> 02:27:50,080
Speaker 15: how Trump has pardoned the insurrectionists. I'd love to hear

2578
02:27:50,120 --> 02:27:52,039
Speaker 15: your thoughts on that, and I know we've only got

2579
02:27:52,280 --> 02:27:55,760
Speaker 15: three minutes left before I get hold off the stage.

2580
02:27:56,200 --> 02:27:58,400
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I guess I have two answers to that.

2581
02:27:58,400 --> 02:28:00,360
Speaker 2: The first would be what do I think is likely

2582
02:28:00,400 --> 02:28:02,320
Speaker 2: to happen? And then what should happen? In terms of

2583
02:28:02,320 --> 02:28:05,240
Speaker 2: what's likely to happen, I guess the likeliest thing is

2584
02:28:05,280 --> 02:28:08,560
Speaker 2: that if we have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it's

2585
02:28:08,560 --> 02:28:11,039
Speaker 2: something that we kind of half ass and it falls

2586
02:28:11,040 --> 02:28:13,120
Speaker 2: way too short, and there's not any kind of criminal

2587
02:28:13,160 --> 02:28:15,480
Speaker 2: restitution for the people who are breaking laws and hurting

2588
02:28:15,480 --> 02:28:19,120
Speaker 2: and killing people right now. I would say that's a

2589
02:28:19,320 --> 02:28:22,560
Speaker 2: likely possibility, just given the way in which this country

2590
02:28:22,560 --> 02:28:24,760
Speaker 2: has handled similar things in the past and the ways

2591
02:28:24,760 --> 02:28:26,879
Speaker 2: in which other countries have handled similar things in the past.

2592
02:28:26,959 --> 02:28:29,640
Speaker 2: Let's not forget the Nuremberg. For all of the things

2593
02:28:29,680 --> 02:28:32,400
Speaker 2: about it that were good, was also a failure in

2594
02:28:32,400 --> 02:28:34,520
Speaker 2: a lot of ways. Right The vast majority of the

2595
02:28:34,560 --> 02:28:37,800
Speaker 2: Nazis who participated directly physically in the Holocaust did not

2596
02:28:37,840 --> 02:28:41,320
Speaker 2: see any kind of criminal consequences. So when it comes

2597
02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:44,760
Speaker 2: to what I think we should have, I think we

2598
02:28:44,840 --> 02:28:48,000
Speaker 2: do need something along the lines of in Nuremberg. And

2599
02:28:48,040 --> 02:28:49,960
Speaker 2: I think that if you want to talk about the

2600
02:28:50,000 --> 02:28:53,760
Speaker 2: people politically who are committing crimes right now and who

2601
02:28:53,760 --> 02:28:55,560
Speaker 2: should be on trial, I think we can all come

2602
02:28:55,640 --> 02:28:57,279
Speaker 2: up with a lot of very similar names.

2603
02:28:57,920 --> 02:28:58,600
Speaker 4: And I'm very.

2604
02:28:58,480 --> 02:29:02,240
Speaker 2: Supportive of trying and bringing this regime to justice for

2605
02:29:02,280 --> 02:29:05,320
Speaker 2: its current illegal behavior and past illegal behavior. That said,

2606
02:29:05,720 --> 02:29:08,960
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be also a failure if

2607
02:29:09,000 --> 02:29:13,320
Speaker 2: we do not extend any attempt at criminal consequences, at

2608
02:29:13,360 --> 02:29:14,560
Speaker 2: retribution at justice.

2609
02:29:14,680 --> 02:29:15,360
Speaker 4: I guess would be.

2610
02:29:15,280 --> 02:29:18,039
Speaker 2: The better term to a group of people who have

2611
02:29:18,200 --> 02:29:21,120
Speaker 2: underlined all of the negative societal changes that are happening

2612
02:29:21,160 --> 02:29:22,959
Speaker 2: right now, which is the people who run all of

2613
02:29:23,000 --> 02:29:25,680
Speaker 2: the major social media corporations in the world, all of

2614
02:29:25,720 --> 02:29:29,800
Speaker 2: whom are deeply complicit and not just our authoritarian slide,

2615
02:29:29,840 --> 02:29:32,360
Speaker 2: but in direct violence. Facebook knew for a fact that

2616
02:29:32,400 --> 02:29:35,240
Speaker 2: the military of me Amar was using their website to

2617
02:29:35,240 --> 02:29:38,400
Speaker 2: spread propaganda to help further in ethnic cleansing, and they

2618
02:29:39,040 --> 02:29:41,360
Speaker 2: made the choice basically to sit with that because it

2619
02:29:41,440 --> 02:29:43,560
Speaker 2: made the money, you know, And that sort of thing

2620
02:29:43,959 --> 02:29:46,119
Speaker 2: should be seen as just as illegal as a bunch

2621
02:29:46,160 --> 02:29:48,920
Speaker 2: of ice agents without a warrant busting into somebody's house

2622
02:29:48,959 --> 02:29:50,000
Speaker 2: with guns, you know.

2623
02:29:50,680 --> 02:29:52,039
Speaker 4: So that's where I stand.

2624
02:29:52,280 --> 02:29:55,360
Speaker 2: I'm on a we didn't go nearly far enough after

2625
02:29:55,400 --> 02:29:57,640
Speaker 2: the Civil War either kind of kick right now, but

2626
02:29:58,240 --> 02:29:59,560
Speaker 2: without need to go into that.

2627
02:30:00,280 --> 02:30:03,280
Speaker 15: We've come to the end of our time. Unfortunately, you

2628
02:30:03,320 --> 02:30:07,480
Speaker 15: know I could continue. I've got, you know, seven seven

2629
02:30:07,560 --> 02:30:09,600
Speaker 15: questions that I would have loved to have asked you,

2630
02:30:10,160 --> 02:30:12,680
Speaker 15: but we don't have time. But you know, Robert, I

2631
02:30:12,720 --> 02:30:16,560
Speaker 15: can't thank you enough for coming, for being with us,

2632
02:30:16,760 --> 02:30:21,120
Speaker 15: for sharing your thoughts, and you know, traveling all the

2633
02:30:21,160 --> 02:30:25,040
Speaker 15: way from Portland, and you know, I'm so sorry about

2634
02:30:25,040 --> 02:30:27,600
Speaker 15: the hundred times that you've been to your guest. You know,

2635
02:30:27,680 --> 02:30:30,119
Speaker 15: I've been to your guest many many times in my life,

2636
02:30:30,160 --> 02:30:31,600
Speaker 15: but it's definitely not one hundred.

2637
02:30:31,720 --> 02:30:33,119
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people got to your guests more

2638
02:30:33,160 --> 02:30:34,519
Speaker 2: than me, and Bortlands.

2639
02:30:35,560 --> 02:30:36,680
Speaker 4: Well and elsewhere.

2640
02:30:36,879 --> 02:30:39,360
Speaker 15: Thank you, Thank you so much, and thank you all

2641
02:30:39,440 --> 02:30:40,440
Speaker 15: for bearing with us.

2642
02:30:55,200 --> 02:30:58,160
Speaker 3: This is it could happen here at Executive Disorder, our

2643
02:30:58,200 --> 02:31:01,320
Speaker 3: weekly newscast covering what's happening the White House, the crumbling world,

2644
02:31:01,320 --> 02:31:03,800
Speaker 3: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis Dame,

2645
02:31:03,879 --> 02:31:08,480
Speaker 3: joined by James Stout, Robert Evans and maybe Sophie Lichterman. Yeah,

2646
02:31:08,640 --> 02:31:11,840
Speaker 3: this episode we are covering the week of January twenty

2647
02:31:11,879 --> 02:31:17,440
Speaker 3: eighth to February fourth. Very exciting events happening this weekend,

2648
02:31:17,600 --> 02:31:21,160
Speaker 3: as we know, the super Bowl and even more importantly,

2649
02:31:21,160 --> 02:31:24,760
Speaker 3: the Turning Point USA halftime Show streaming on Daily Wire Plus,

2650
02:31:24,800 --> 02:31:29,720
Speaker 3: America's Real Voice, National News Desk and TBN. I don't

2651
02:31:29,720 --> 02:31:30,240
Speaker 3: know what that is.

2652
02:31:30,280 --> 02:31:33,839
Speaker 1: Way pause, pause, it's behind a payroll.

2653
02:31:33,720 --> 02:31:36,960
Speaker 3: Uh you know, unclear? Well, but probably not because it's

2654
02:31:37,000 --> 02:31:39,720
Speaker 3: gonna be Also it's also gonna be on YouTube x

2655
02:31:39,800 --> 02:31:40,960
Speaker 3: Everything app and Rumble.

2656
02:31:41,480 --> 02:31:43,320
Speaker 4: But I was going to ask it was on Rumble.

2657
02:31:43,560 --> 02:31:45,240
Speaker 3: It's gonna be Oh, don't worry, James that there are

2658
02:31:45,280 --> 02:31:47,840
Speaker 3: one step ahead of you and we can we can

2659
02:31:47,879 --> 02:31:50,039
Speaker 3: see all of our favorite acts. We have kid Rock,

2660
02:31:50,520 --> 02:31:54,080
Speaker 3: Bradley Gilbert, Lee Brice, and Gabby Barrett, all of my

2661
02:31:54,200 --> 02:31:55,480
Speaker 3: favorite performers.

2662
02:31:55,760 --> 02:31:57,920
Speaker 2: Garrett, I haven't seen kid Rock since you and I

2663
02:31:58,000 --> 02:31:59,840
Speaker 2: watched Kid Rock together at the RNC.

2664
02:32:00,280 --> 02:32:02,480
Speaker 3: It's been too long. It's been too long.

2665
02:32:02,800 --> 02:32:03,920
Speaker 4: It's been way too long.

2666
02:32:04,040 --> 02:32:06,520
Speaker 3: It's been too long. I'm I'm excited for Lee Bryce

2667
02:32:06,640 --> 02:32:10,120
Speaker 3: obviously as a as as the biggest Bryce head on

2668
02:32:10,160 --> 02:32:13,400
Speaker 3: the pod. Rice is gonna be huge. Yeabby Beart will

2669
02:32:13,400 --> 02:32:15,840
Speaker 3: be a nice you know, a nice little spice on top.

2670
02:32:16,360 --> 02:32:19,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this guy's name is it's not Bradley, It's

2671
02:32:19,360 --> 02:32:20,360
Speaker 4: it's Brandley.

2672
02:32:20,600 --> 02:32:25,640
Speaker 3: Sorry, Brandy Gilbert. My my apologies, my apologies all the

2673
02:32:25,640 --> 02:32:29,920
Speaker 3: big Brandley fans out there by bad name obviously the

2674
02:32:29,959 --> 02:32:31,560
Speaker 3: most literally.

2675
02:32:31,480 --> 02:32:36,280
Speaker 4: Brand that's not a real name. That's just not a

2676
02:32:36,320 --> 02:32:39,280
Speaker 4: real name. Yeah, it isn't spelt with L E I

2677
02:32:39,400 --> 02:32:41,640
Speaker 4: g H. So we do have to give him that.

2678
02:32:42,440 --> 02:32:44,800
Speaker 2: If it was Brandt Leigh, I would be doing some

2679
02:32:44,920 --> 02:32:45,800
Speaker 2: terrorism right.

2680
02:32:46,400 --> 02:32:49,959
Speaker 4: Right, gun in my hand. Yeah, I would be unable

2681
02:32:49,959 --> 02:32:50,720
Speaker 4: to stop myself.

2682
02:32:51,280 --> 02:32:54,199
Speaker 12: You guys, I just googled Lee Brice and the first

2683
02:32:54,200 --> 02:32:56,480
Speaker 12: picture that pops up is incredible and I'm gonna put

2684
02:32:56,480 --> 02:32:57,120
Speaker 12: it in the chat.

2685
02:32:57,440 --> 02:32:59,000
Speaker 4: Please do is it in the work chat?

2686
02:32:59,400 --> 02:33:03,240
Speaker 1: It's zoomed. That's the first picture that pops up. It's incredible.

2687
02:33:03,680 --> 02:33:04,480
Speaker 3: Oh he looks tough.

2688
02:33:04,600 --> 02:33:06,240
Speaker 4: Wow is he in band of brothers?

2689
02:33:06,840 --> 02:33:08,560
Speaker 3: His jaw is fantastic.

2690
02:33:08,600 --> 02:33:10,840
Speaker 1: Oh my god, an incredible first photo.

2691
02:33:11,240 --> 02:33:14,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, his expression isn't though. He's really letting himself down

2692
02:33:14,040 --> 02:33:14,520
Speaker 4: with the face.

2693
02:33:14,600 --> 02:33:16,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, his face says I really am racist.

2694
02:33:17,080 --> 02:33:18,520
Speaker 4: It just doesn't look happy to be there.

2695
02:33:19,320 --> 02:33:22,080
Speaker 3: So obviously, after about six months of planning, Turning Point

2696
02:33:22,080 --> 02:33:24,320
Speaker 3: was able to put together just the finest, the finest

2697
02:33:24,320 --> 02:33:26,640
Speaker 3: acts in all the show business for their for their

2698
02:33:26,760 --> 02:33:31,520
Speaker 3: all Americans, all the big names, really whatever flits, everyone's

2699
02:33:31,560 --> 02:33:35,039
Speaker 3: it to listen. They could not even get Nicki Minaje,

2700
02:33:35,160 --> 02:33:38,560
Speaker 3: which is like so humiliating, Like, come on, guys.

2701
02:33:38,600 --> 02:33:41,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, didn't she do a dance with the Treasury Secretary

2702
02:33:41,800 --> 02:33:42,760
Speaker 4: yesterday or something?

2703
02:33:43,160 --> 02:33:43,400
Speaker 3: Yes?

2704
02:33:44,120 --> 02:33:46,959
Speaker 12: Who is that guy or those two people that were

2705
02:33:47,000 --> 02:33:49,240
Speaker 12: at the R and C that they kept showing doing

2706
02:33:49,240 --> 02:33:50,119
Speaker 12: that rap video?

2707
02:33:50,920 --> 02:33:52,400
Speaker 1: I like kind of blocked it down.

2708
02:33:52,520 --> 02:33:55,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, those conservative rap guys.

2709
02:33:55,200 --> 02:33:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, for Gattio Blow is it forget for Gatio Blow

2710
02:33:58,840 --> 02:34:00,560
Speaker 2: is one of the conservative rap guys.

2711
02:34:00,640 --> 02:34:03,360
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I will admit I don't have a deep

2712
02:34:03,400 --> 02:34:04,400
Speaker 4: knowledge in this area.

2713
02:34:04,800 --> 02:34:07,320
Speaker 2: I I saw him at the R n C. I

2714
02:34:07,400 --> 02:34:09,800
Speaker 2: was walking behind him on my way to the beer store.

2715
02:34:09,879 --> 02:34:14,760
Speaker 4: He's incredible. He's an amazing looking man. Yeah, that's a

2716
02:34:14,840 --> 02:34:18,160
Speaker 4: unique dude. That's a that's your risky goople of the day.

2717
02:34:18,640 --> 02:34:23,720
Speaker 2: God really broke the mold with him.

2718
02:34:24,480 --> 02:34:28,520
Speaker 3: So we will we will report on how the Turning

2719
02:34:28,560 --> 02:34:32,080
Speaker 3: Point halftime show went next week for the next d

2720
02:34:32,200 --> 02:34:34,120
Speaker 3: D because you you know that I'm going to be

2721
02:34:34,160 --> 02:34:35,440
Speaker 3: turned into rumble to watch this.

2722
02:34:35,959 --> 02:34:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gonna be We're need a minute by minute

2723
02:34:38,760 --> 02:34:40,360
Speaker 2: breakdown of this bad Boy.

2724
02:34:40,879 --> 02:34:42,560
Speaker 3: I'll be taking extensive notes.

2725
02:34:44,720 --> 02:34:47,080
Speaker 4: I feel'll be able to record in watch it again

2726
02:34:47,160 --> 02:34:49,440
Speaker 4: later for posterity. I feel like it's gonna go down

2727
02:34:49,520 --> 02:34:52,160
Speaker 4: like live aid. You know, it's the greatest moment in

2728
02:34:52,360 --> 02:34:52,920
Speaker 4: live music.

2729
02:34:53,200 --> 02:34:55,400
Speaker 3: It is interesting that they are showing it on national

2730
02:34:55,400 --> 02:35:00,320
Speaker 3: news desk. Fox News did not do not decide to

2731
02:35:00,440 --> 02:35:03,160
Speaker 3: air air the all of Eric at halftime show, so

2732
02:35:03,320 --> 02:35:05,680
Speaker 3: instead you have to tune into TBN whatever that is

2733
02:35:05,760 --> 02:35:08,400
Speaker 3: in a national news desk. So let's get us some

2734
02:35:08,440 --> 02:35:09,320
Speaker 3: actual news though.

2735
02:35:09,560 --> 02:35:14,040
Speaker 2: Sure, real news, Okay. So Portland, Oregon has been the

2736
02:35:14,080 --> 02:35:19,600
Speaker 2: site of some recent noteworthy ice protests. On Saturday, the

2737
02:35:19,800 --> 02:35:24,560
Speaker 2: thirty first of January, there was a large union march

2738
02:35:25,160 --> 02:35:28,800
Speaker 2: on the Ice building on McAdams Street in Portland, Oregon.

2739
02:35:29,320 --> 02:35:31,960
Speaker 2: This was like basically every union in Portland. It was

2740
02:35:32,000 --> 02:35:34,879
Speaker 2: the largest union march that we've had here in like

2741
02:35:35,000 --> 02:35:38,040
Speaker 2: twenty years. Somewhere along those lines, about five to ten

2742
02:35:38,120 --> 02:35:40,840
Speaker 2: thousand people showed up. Wow, when I heard it was

2743
02:35:40,879 --> 02:35:43,040
Speaker 2: ten k because I wound up there. I hadn't even

2744
02:35:43,200 --> 02:35:45,080
Speaker 2: planning to go, but I showed up with a friend

2745
02:35:45,280 --> 02:35:47,680
Speaker 2: and as we were kind of watching the crowd pass,

2746
02:35:47,720 --> 02:35:50,240
Speaker 2: a buddy of ours came up who knows one of

2747
02:35:50,240 --> 02:35:51,959
Speaker 2: the people who organized the march, and was like, yeah,

2748
02:35:52,000 --> 02:35:54,800
Speaker 2: they're expecting like ten thousand people and I was like,

2749
02:35:54,840 --> 02:35:56,400
Speaker 2: there's no way they're going to get ten that fucking

2750
02:35:56,440 --> 02:35:59,080
Speaker 2: people out here. And then as the crowd went past

2751
02:35:59,120 --> 02:36:01,320
Speaker 2: me for like twenty straight minutes, and I was like, yeah,

2752
02:36:01,360 --> 02:36:04,400
Speaker 2: that might be ten thousand people. That really is quite

2753
02:36:04,440 --> 02:36:07,720
Speaker 2: a lot of motherfucking people. It was an extremely diverse crowd,

2754
02:36:08,000 --> 02:36:11,080
Speaker 2: which I mean in the age sense primarily it's Portlands,

2755
02:36:11,120 --> 02:36:14,440
Speaker 2: so not in the in any other sense of the word.

2756
02:36:14,680 --> 02:36:21,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, those protests tend to have you know, older folks, teenagers, families, teachers.

2757
02:36:21,560 --> 02:36:24,440
Speaker 2: A lot of older folks, a lot of little kids,

2758
02:36:24,640 --> 02:36:27,560
Speaker 2: kids who were like eight to twelve years old. Because

2759
02:36:27,560 --> 02:36:30,640
Speaker 2: it was just suppose people were like the basic rout

2760
02:36:30,680 --> 02:36:33,959
Speaker 2: of march was doing a circle around the ice facility,

2761
02:36:34,000 --> 02:36:37,600
Speaker 2: and then there was like sound equipment and music set

2762
02:36:37,680 --> 02:36:41,199
Speaker 2: up on a nearby park. So I think I don't

2763
02:36:41,240 --> 02:36:44,640
Speaker 2: believe the plan was an extended confrontation with Ice, which

2764
02:36:44,680 --> 02:36:47,920
Speaker 2: is what made what came next so surprising, which is

2765
02:36:47,920 --> 02:36:51,039
Speaker 2: that we start walking towards where the route of march

2766
02:36:51,080 --> 02:36:52,680
Speaker 2: is heading. We're kind of in like the middle of

2767
02:36:52,720 --> 02:36:57,240
Speaker 2: the crowd probably, and we see a cloud and it's

2768
02:36:57,280 --> 02:37:00,240
Speaker 2: like three point thirty in the afternoon. So the people

2769
02:37:00,280 --> 02:37:02,600
Speaker 2: I'm with, who have all been through their share of

2770
02:37:02,640 --> 02:37:05,800
Speaker 2: Portland protests, are like, that can't be tear gas. It's

2771
02:37:05,840 --> 02:37:08,640
Speaker 2: not even four pm and this is the Liberal March.

2772
02:37:08,640 --> 02:37:11,959
Speaker 2: There's no way they've gassed it already. Like I saw

2773
02:37:12,000 --> 02:37:13,880
Speaker 2: the front of the march. It was a bunch of

2774
02:37:13,879 --> 02:37:18,360
Speaker 2: people in their fifties. Like, they're not forcing the issue

2775
02:37:18,400 --> 02:37:22,279
Speaker 2: with Ice, I don't think, but apparently pray the claims

2776
02:37:22,320 --> 02:37:24,840
Speaker 2: made by Ice. When the crowd reached the Ice building,

2777
02:37:24,920 --> 02:37:28,760
Speaker 2: people began throwing water bottles. So obviously that's a situation

2778
02:37:28,840 --> 02:37:33,080
Speaker 2: that can't be allowed to continue. So they gas the

2779
02:37:33,240 --> 02:37:36,120
Speaker 2: absolute fuck out of the march, and they gased it

2780
02:37:36,240 --> 02:37:39,640
Speaker 2: so much that the cloud of gas spread to cover

2781
02:37:39,760 --> 02:37:42,680
Speaker 2: pretty much the entire march, including the people who were

2782
02:37:42,680 --> 02:37:43,360
Speaker 2: nowhere near.

2783
02:37:43,320 --> 02:37:44,200
Speaker 4: The front of the march.

2784
02:37:44,240 --> 02:37:44,520
Speaker 9: Yet.

2785
02:37:45,040 --> 02:37:47,560
Speaker 2: So as we're walking towards it, we've become aware about

2786
02:37:47,560 --> 02:37:50,000
Speaker 2: halfway towards getting to it that like, okay, that's not

2787
02:37:50,160 --> 02:37:54,240
Speaker 2: smoke that is in fact gas. Some of us had masks.

2788
02:37:54,360 --> 02:37:56,040
Speaker 2: I did not, so I'm like, well, I'm going to

2789
02:37:56,120 --> 02:37:58,400
Speaker 2: have a bad time. This is straight up not going

2790
02:37:58,440 --> 02:38:01,480
Speaker 2: to be fun album with It was because of where

2791
02:38:01,520 --> 02:38:02,320
Speaker 2: they gassed us.

2792
02:38:02,360 --> 02:38:04,199
Speaker 4: There were kind of two streets.

2793
02:38:03,760 --> 02:38:06,240
Speaker 2: Of buildings on either side, so you basically got you're

2794
02:38:06,280 --> 02:38:09,400
Speaker 2: in like a valley almost. You've got steep canyon walls

2795
02:38:09,480 --> 02:38:11,640
Speaker 2: kind of on either side of you. And there was

2796
02:38:11,720 --> 02:38:16,240
Speaker 2: no wind that day, so you've just got this thick

2797
02:38:16,440 --> 02:38:20,520
Speaker 2: cloud of gas smoke and ten thousand people crammed in

2798
02:38:20,680 --> 02:38:25,120
Speaker 2: between two pillars of buildings. So it was a very

2799
02:38:25,280 --> 02:38:28,560
Speaker 2: bad time. A lot of kids got gassed. I saw

2800
02:38:28,600 --> 02:38:32,720
Speaker 2: a number of children in significant distress, like little kids.

2801
02:38:32,720 --> 02:38:35,640
Speaker 2: A lot of old people wound up in significant distress.

2802
02:38:36,240 --> 02:38:39,680
Speaker 2: It was straight up a bad time and it continued

2803
02:38:39,879 --> 02:38:41,640
Speaker 2: for the next day. There was another march the next

2804
02:38:41,680 --> 02:38:45,080
Speaker 2: day that started at city Hall. This kind of galvanized

2805
02:38:45,240 --> 02:38:47,959
Speaker 2: people in Portland to specifically take up the charge of

2806
02:38:47,959 --> 02:38:52,520
Speaker 2: protesting for the city to basically not renew or cancel

2807
02:38:52,640 --> 02:38:55,600
Speaker 2: ICE's contract to use the building that they're based out of.

2808
02:38:56,160 --> 02:38:59,200
Speaker 4: So there was a large march on Sunday. I showed

2809
02:38:59,240 --> 02:39:00,240
Speaker 4: up as the march.

2810
02:39:00,000 --> 02:39:02,959
Speaker 2: Which reached the Ice area because.

2811
02:39:02,720 --> 02:39:04,080
Speaker 4: I didn't want to walk across town.

2812
02:39:05,080 --> 02:39:06,920
Speaker 2: And sure enough we get there and maybe an hour

2813
02:39:07,000 --> 02:39:09,279
Speaker 2: or so after the crowd arrives, there's like a thousand

2814
02:39:09,400 --> 02:39:11,879
Speaker 2: or so people and it's still a very young crowd.

2815
02:39:11,920 --> 02:39:15,040
Speaker 2: This is not mostly people who have been doing the

2816
02:39:15,600 --> 02:39:17,800
Speaker 2: protest thing in Portland for a long time.

2817
02:39:18,000 --> 02:39:19,160
Speaker 4: Like I saw a lot of.

2818
02:39:19,120 --> 02:39:21,279
Speaker 2: Girls who couldn't have been older than sixteen or seventeen

2819
02:39:21,879 --> 02:39:25,120
Speaker 2: out on Sunday and they gassed again. And I couldn't

2820
02:39:25,120 --> 02:39:27,120
Speaker 2: tell you. They were letting people like right up to

2821
02:39:27,160 --> 02:39:30,000
Speaker 2: the front of the Ice building, which they had gassed

2822
02:39:30,040 --> 02:39:33,400
Speaker 2: folks for throwing water bottles kind of near the day before.

2823
02:39:33,440 --> 02:39:35,760
Speaker 2: So there's never any consistency with these sort of things.

2824
02:39:36,280 --> 02:39:38,520
Speaker 2: And eventually they just decided to gas the shit out

2825
02:39:38,560 --> 02:39:41,240
Speaker 2: of everybody again to come and snatch people. And that's

2826
02:39:41,320 --> 02:39:43,520
Speaker 2: kind of the story is people in Portland are really

2827
02:39:43,520 --> 02:39:46,760
Speaker 2: pissed again because they gassed the big Lib march. All

2828
02:39:46,800 --> 02:39:49,119
Speaker 2: of the unions are really angry, all of the nurses

2829
02:39:49,160 --> 02:39:52,000
Speaker 2: are really angry, The city government's angry. The Mayor of Portland,

2830
02:39:52,080 --> 02:39:53,840
Speaker 2: Keith Wilson, made a statement that all of the I

2831
02:39:54,000 --> 02:39:58,120
Speaker 2: say should quit their jobs should resign. I don't know that.

2832
02:39:58,200 --> 02:40:00,280
Speaker 2: I think that they're actually going to kick I out

2833
02:40:00,280 --> 02:40:02,960
Speaker 2: of its building now. To be fair, I don't think

2834
02:40:02,959 --> 02:40:05,160
Speaker 2: that ICE is really getting much done in that building

2835
02:40:05,280 --> 02:40:08,520
Speaker 2: because it's locked down completely. They are using facilities up

2836
02:40:08,560 --> 02:40:11,280
Speaker 2: in Washington for the actual immigration stuff for the most part,

2837
02:40:11,920 --> 02:40:16,400
Speaker 2: so it's become I think it's largely a symbol. Yeah,

2838
02:40:16,440 --> 02:40:20,160
Speaker 2: a symbolic kind of dill. So we'll see. I don't

2839
02:40:20,160 --> 02:40:23,480
Speaker 2: know what's going to happen next, but yeah, that's the

2840
02:40:23,600 --> 02:40:24,400
Speaker 2: update from here.

2841
02:40:24,920 --> 02:40:28,920
Speaker 1: The tear gas air is spicy and bad for our.

2842
02:40:28,760 --> 02:40:32,200
Speaker 2: Health, yeah, I mean, it always bums me out to

2843
02:40:32,240 --> 02:40:36,040
Speaker 2: see really young people like kids get tear gased, especially

2844
02:40:36,080 --> 02:40:40,640
Speaker 2: like teenage girls. Because there's data, and not nearly as

2845
02:40:40,680 --> 02:40:42,520
Speaker 2: much as there should because the government really doesn't like

2846
02:40:42,560 --> 02:40:47,920
Speaker 2: studying this on how tear gas affects, particularly like reproductive health,

2847
02:40:48,480 --> 02:40:51,879
Speaker 2: and it's bad. There's evidence from places like Gaza that

2848
02:40:51,959 --> 02:40:54,920
Speaker 2: it can cause miscarriages. There's documentation and miscarriages and at

2849
02:40:54,959 --> 02:40:57,120
Speaker 2: least three different countries as a result of tear gas use,

2850
02:40:57,120 --> 02:40:59,880
Speaker 2: although again it's not the kind of documentation you'd want

2851
02:40:59,920 --> 02:41:02,360
Speaker 2: for a medical thing because you can't really isolate out

2852
02:41:02,400 --> 02:41:04,560
Speaker 2: other factors that may have been happening at the same time,

2853
02:41:04,640 --> 02:41:09,360
Speaker 2: because you're trying to figure out what this and other

2854
02:41:09,440 --> 02:41:11,480
Speaker 2: things are doing to people's bodies in a place like

2855
02:41:11,520 --> 02:41:13,800
Speaker 2: Gaza where you have no kind of like clinical control.

2856
02:41:14,320 --> 02:41:17,039
Speaker 2: But outside of that, there's evidence of missed periods that

2857
02:41:17,120 --> 02:41:20,240
Speaker 2: it can like delay or cause unusually painful periods.

2858
02:41:20,080 --> 02:41:21,920
Speaker 1: Send people into early menopause.

2859
02:41:22,280 --> 02:41:22,600
Speaker 5: Jeez.

2860
02:41:22,959 --> 02:41:24,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's some evidence for that.

2861
02:41:24,640 --> 02:41:27,039
Speaker 2: It's kind of a When I brought this up online,

2862
02:41:27,080 --> 02:41:28,680
Speaker 2: someone got very angry at me because they're like, well,

2863
02:41:28,680 --> 02:41:32,520
Speaker 2: it's not proven. I think there's enough data to tell people,

2864
02:41:32,600 --> 02:41:35,360
Speaker 2: especially if you've got a uterus wear a mask when

2865
02:41:35,360 --> 02:41:36,200
Speaker 2: you go protest.

2866
02:41:36,600 --> 02:41:39,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think also, how are we going to obtain

2867
02:41:39,800 --> 02:41:40,959
Speaker 4: proof in this scenario?

2868
02:41:41,200 --> 02:41:41,400
Speaker 6: Right?

2869
02:41:41,560 --> 02:41:43,720
Speaker 4: What are they going to do? Yeah, it's not very

2870
02:41:43,760 --> 02:41:45,320
Speaker 4: easy for us to do. We can't really do it

2871
02:41:45,360 --> 02:41:46,800
Speaker 4: just a double blind trial, right.

2872
02:41:46,920 --> 02:41:47,120
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2873
02:41:47,480 --> 02:41:50,520
Speaker 2: Somebody brought up like, if it was bad for reproductive health,

2874
02:41:50,680 --> 02:41:52,440
Speaker 2: then all of the women in the military, because you

2875
02:41:52,480 --> 02:41:55,240
Speaker 2: get tear gassed as part of military training, then that

2876
02:41:55,280 --> 02:41:58,400
Speaker 2: would have shown up before and it hasn't. And I

2877
02:41:58,400 --> 02:42:02,480
Speaker 2: immediately found in about three second it's the largest study

2878
02:42:02,520 --> 02:42:04,680
Speaker 2: done so far on the effect of tear gas that

2879
02:42:04,720 --> 02:42:07,400
Speaker 2: specifically noted. Yeah, they did some studies on here tear

2880
02:42:07,400 --> 02:42:10,000
Speaker 2: gas affects people in the sixties. They didn't look at women,

2881
02:42:10,320 --> 02:42:13,440
Speaker 2: weren't interested, they didn't care, not at.

2882
02:42:13,320 --> 02:42:17,080
Speaker 4: All a priority. Yeah, completely ignored it. Shocked, shocked to

2883
02:42:17,120 --> 02:42:17,360
Speaker 4: hear this.

2884
02:42:18,280 --> 02:42:22,680
Speaker 2: So anyway, just like we're a respirator, A half faced respirator,

2885
02:42:23,400 --> 02:42:25,960
Speaker 2: you know, is cheaper. I would recommend a full face

2886
02:42:26,000 --> 02:42:29,279
Speaker 2: because tear gas sucks on your eyes. They're not crazy expensive.

2887
02:42:29,320 --> 02:42:31,120
Speaker 2: You don't have to get a nice gas mask. Just

2888
02:42:31,160 --> 02:42:33,440
Speaker 2: get a respirator. It's better than nothing.

2889
02:42:33,959 --> 02:42:36,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, I like my respirator.

2890
02:42:37,200 --> 02:42:37,440
Speaker 1: Yep.

2891
02:42:38,160 --> 02:42:40,920
Speaker 4: So firstly, just a couple of small things that we

2892
02:42:40,959 --> 02:42:44,360
Speaker 4: wanted to note that we might come back to covering later. First,

2893
02:42:44,400 --> 02:42:47,200
Speaker 4: the US has now admitted that it had a small

2894
02:42:47,200 --> 02:42:50,480
Speaker 4: contingent of troops on the ground in Nigeria. I wrote

2895
02:42:50,600 --> 02:42:54,200
Speaker 4: on my newsletter about US drone strikes in Nigeria, what

2896
02:42:54,240 --> 02:42:58,400
Speaker 4: they're doing there and who they're targeting with those drone strikes,

2897
02:42:58,440 --> 02:43:03,320
Speaker 4: alongside the the long running issues with civilian casualties with

2898
02:43:04,240 --> 02:43:06,520
Speaker 4: airborne raids in Nigeria. On my news letters of people

2899
02:43:06,520 --> 02:43:09,680
Speaker 4: want to read that they can and secondly, I wanted

2900
02:43:09,680 --> 02:43:12,680
Speaker 4: to mention that Judge Anna Reyes has stated Secretary Nomes

2901
02:43:12,720 --> 02:43:15,640
Speaker 4: decision that would have rendered three hundred and fifty thousand

2902
02:43:15,640 --> 02:43:18,400
Speaker 4: Haitians without legal status when she was going to let

2903
02:43:18,400 --> 02:43:23,400
Speaker 4: the temporary protected status expire. I have explained TPS several

2904
02:43:23,480 --> 02:43:26,959
Speaker 4: times on ED and in my first Darien series, so

2905
02:43:27,080 --> 02:43:28,760
Speaker 4: I'm not going to go into detail about it here,

2906
02:43:28,800 --> 02:43:30,200
Speaker 4: but if you'd like to listen to those, you can

2907
02:43:30,240 --> 02:43:31,160
Speaker 4: find out more about it.

2908
02:43:32,200 --> 02:43:36,040
Speaker 3: Last thing before our first ad break, Bill and Hillary

2909
02:43:36,080 --> 02:43:39,119
Speaker 3: Clinton have agreed to testify before Congress is a part

2910
02:43:39,160 --> 02:43:42,480
Speaker 3: of the Epstein investigation. A vote to hold the Clintons

2911
02:43:42,520 --> 02:43:45,800
Speaker 3: and criminal contempt of Congress was scheduled for this week

2912
02:43:46,080 --> 02:43:49,320
Speaker 3: before they finally agreed to be deposed at two hearings

2913
02:43:49,360 --> 02:43:52,320
Speaker 3: in late February, and the Clintons have now called for

2914
02:43:52,400 --> 02:43:57,400
Speaker 3: these hearings to be public. This follows a slew of

2915
02:43:57,480 --> 02:44:01,360
Speaker 3: new Epstein documents that are released by the DOJ last week,

2916
02:44:01,600 --> 02:44:03,960
Speaker 3: which Robert You'll be you'll be covering on behind the

2917
02:44:04,000 --> 02:44:04,920
Speaker 3: Bastards soon.

2918
02:44:05,120 --> 02:44:08,240
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, we will be talking about the things revealed

2919
02:44:08,240 --> 02:44:10,760
Speaker 2: in the new Epstein file releases. The three million or

2920
02:44:10,760 --> 02:44:13,520
Speaker 2: so documents that just came out. Yes, we'll be talking

2921
02:44:13,520 --> 02:44:15,560
Speaker 2: about that on Behind the Bastards.

2922
02:44:15,320 --> 02:44:16,840
Speaker 1: Not next week but the week after.

2923
02:44:17,240 --> 02:44:19,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably like the week after something like that. There's

2924
02:44:19,720 --> 02:44:21,400
Speaker 2: a lot of good stuff in there, a lot of

2925
02:44:21,440 --> 02:44:25,200
Speaker 2: Brock Pierce in this set of releases. If you've been

2926
02:44:25,280 --> 02:44:28,280
Speaker 2: curious as to what the guy who invented tether, the

2927
02:44:28,320 --> 02:44:34,720
Speaker 2: cryptocurrency tether, was up to, with Jeffrey Epstein as a spoiler,

2928
02:44:35,040 --> 02:44:41,200
Speaker 2: it was molesting people, Jesus Christ. Yeah, well allegedly, we

2929
02:44:41,240 --> 02:44:43,400
Speaker 2: don't know. We don't know that it was molesting. They

2930
02:44:43,400 --> 02:44:47,000
Speaker 2: were described as girls, repeatedly described as girls in the

2931
02:44:47,040 --> 02:44:51,920
Speaker 2: emails between Brock Pierce, the Mighty Ducks guy, and Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah,

2932
02:44:51,959 --> 02:44:55,040
Speaker 2: but that could mean anything, you know, that could mean anything.

2933
02:44:55,120 --> 02:44:57,920
Speaker 3: You'd be talking about the Elon Mosk emails in there.

2934
02:44:58,400 --> 02:45:02,160
Speaker 2: There's some Elon stuff in there. It's nothing definitive. The

2935
02:45:02,200 --> 02:45:04,480
Speaker 2: downside of it is Elon has a leg to stand

2936
02:45:04,480 --> 02:45:06,360
Speaker 2: on when he's like I never went to the island

2937
02:45:07,040 --> 02:45:10,160
Speaker 2: that said. You can interpret the emails one of two ways.

2938
02:45:10,160 --> 02:45:12,840
Speaker 2: Because I saw an Elon Musk fans, I'd be like, see,

2939
02:45:13,200 --> 02:45:15,440
Speaker 2: he was clearly just trying to blow him off. That's

2940
02:45:15,440 --> 02:45:18,360
Speaker 2: not how I interpret Elon's emails to Epstein. I think

2941
02:45:18,400 --> 02:45:20,400
Speaker 2: he really wanted to go to that fuck island.

2942
02:45:21,840 --> 02:45:24,080
Speaker 4: What night will the wildest posse be or something?

2943
02:45:24,160 --> 02:45:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was like I want to know where that

2944
02:45:25,320 --> 02:45:28,160
Speaker 2: But he was also talking about like the whole island

2945
02:45:28,280 --> 02:45:31,520
Speaker 2: area right, like where the wildest parties are that he wanted,

2946
02:45:31,959 --> 02:45:35,959
Speaker 2: So he does have some plausible deniability, But he was

2947
02:45:36,080 --> 02:45:38,800
Speaker 2: lying about not being in touch with Epstein and also

2948
02:45:39,720 --> 02:45:44,640
Speaker 2: JK Rowling in touch with Epstein. Oh shit, save yes,

2949
02:45:44,720 --> 02:45:49,080
Speaker 2: saved him seats for the opening of her play. Oh

2950
02:45:49,120 --> 02:45:52,760
Speaker 2: of the Harry Potter play on Broadway, got Jeffrey Epstein

2951
02:45:52,840 --> 02:45:53,320
Speaker 2: a seat.

2952
02:45:54,360 --> 02:45:56,199
Speaker 4: God, just when you thaw she gonna be a worse

2953
02:45:56,280 --> 02:45:57,080
Speaker 4: fucking person.

2954
02:45:57,120 --> 02:45:57,720
Speaker 1: Incredible.

2955
02:45:58,160 --> 02:46:01,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, what ad What a disgrace to national Yeah, I

2956
02:46:01,280 --> 02:46:04,119
Speaker 4: mean we have lots of those, I guess, but yeah.

2957
02:46:03,920 --> 02:46:07,199
Speaker 3: I can't believe this one person has ruined the reputation

2958
02:46:07,360 --> 02:46:08,760
Speaker 3: of Britain, the.

2959
02:46:08,840 --> 02:46:12,359
Speaker 4: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, previously unblemished

2960
02:46:12,400 --> 02:46:16,160
Speaker 4: in santis of history Jesus Christ till the tough Wizard

2961
02:46:16,200 --> 02:46:20,640
Speaker 4: Lady came alone. Yeah, the first bed English person anyway.

2962
02:46:20,879 --> 02:46:25,359
Speaker 3: So yeah, on February twenty sixth, Hillary will be testifying

2963
02:46:25,360 --> 02:46:28,440
Speaker 3: and on the twenty seventh Bill will be testifying in

2964
02:46:28,800 --> 02:46:32,039
Speaker 3: hearings that should be televised live to the public.

2965
02:46:32,560 --> 02:46:49,120
Speaker 12: Interesting, okay, let's go on, brit all right, we're back,

2966
02:46:49,160 --> 02:46:51,960
Speaker 12: and I have a fantastic news. Look what I found.

2967
02:46:52,360 --> 02:46:54,879
Speaker 1: Look what I found, you guys, deep in my archives

2968
02:46:54,879 --> 02:46:55,560
Speaker 1: of misery.

2969
02:46:55,920 --> 02:46:59,280
Speaker 3: Luckily, podcasting is a visual medium.

2970
02:47:00,040 --> 02:47:01,560
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's audio.

2971
02:47:02,200 --> 02:47:03,680
Speaker 4: Okay, what are we imagine?

2972
02:47:04,400 --> 02:47:14,360
Speaker 10: Oh god, all right, I think I think we get

2973
02:47:14,640 --> 02:47:16,280
Speaker 10: forgot you.

2974
02:47:16,360 --> 02:47:16,760
Speaker 5: Wow?

2975
02:47:16,879 --> 02:47:17,800
Speaker 4: Do we need anymore?

2976
02:47:18,360 --> 02:47:18,560
Speaker 12: No?

2977
02:47:20,040 --> 02:47:20,600
Speaker 10: No, we don't.

2978
02:47:20,840 --> 02:47:23,080
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, sorry?

2979
02:47:23,680 --> 02:47:24,360
Speaker 5: Oh god.

2980
02:47:24,680 --> 02:47:26,440
Speaker 4: The fact that video is playing on the background of

2981
02:47:26,440 --> 02:47:28,320
Speaker 4: a large police badge.

2982
02:47:28,720 --> 02:47:31,879
Speaker 1: We're voting Donald Trump baby so.

2983
02:47:32,000 --> 02:47:35,920
Speaker 3: Bad, so bad. I cannot tell you how disappointed I

2984
02:47:35,959 --> 02:47:38,280
Speaker 3: am that I will not be hearing them perform on

2985
02:47:38,360 --> 02:47:42,200
Speaker 3: Super Bowl Sunday. You can see just the disappointment in

2986
02:47:42,240 --> 02:47:43,040
Speaker 3: my face right now.

2987
02:47:43,520 --> 02:47:43,800
Speaker 4: M M.

2988
02:47:44,720 --> 02:47:49,360
Speaker 3: This Wednesday morning, February fourth, Tom Homan announced that they're

2989
02:47:49,360 --> 02:47:54,520
Speaker 3: pulling seven hundred federal agents out of Minneapolis, though two

2990
02:47:54,560 --> 02:47:57,119
Speaker 3: thousand will remain in this city.

2991
02:47:57,400 --> 02:47:59,600
Speaker 1: That's so many agents.

2992
02:48:00,240 --> 02:48:01,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's so that much.

2993
02:48:02,480 --> 02:48:05,480
Speaker 1: Seven hundred sounded like there's.

2994
02:48:05,240 --> 02:48:07,600
Speaker 3: Still a lot of ICE and Border patrol on the ground.

2995
02:48:07,760 --> 02:48:13,240
Speaker 4: Wow, two thousand was a search that they did earlier

2996
02:48:13,360 --> 02:48:16,000
Speaker 4: this year. That that was when they really kind of

2997
02:48:16,000 --> 02:48:18,680
Speaker 4: flooded it with ICE agents. So two thousand is still

2998
02:48:19,160 --> 02:48:21,080
Speaker 4: two thousands is still a massive amount of ICE is

2999
02:48:21,160 --> 02:48:24,120
Speaker 4: overall capacity that these aren't all ICE agents, right, like

3000
02:48:24,160 --> 02:48:27,480
Speaker 4: they deputize atf and marshals and other things.

3001
02:48:27,560 --> 02:48:29,480
Speaker 3: But a lot of Border patrol guys here.

3002
02:48:29,680 --> 02:48:32,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know if that's who the seven hundred

3003
02:48:32,160 --> 02:48:33,600
Speaker 4: who there was drawing are.

3004
02:48:34,040 --> 02:48:36,320
Speaker 3: It's a mix, it's not. I don't think they're from

3005
02:48:36,360 --> 02:48:37,120
Speaker 3: just one agency.

3006
02:48:37,760 --> 02:48:39,520
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, there are a lot of Border patrol you

3007
02:48:39,520 --> 02:48:42,160
Speaker 4: see that a lot, right, Like, the border patrol agents

3008
02:48:42,200 --> 02:48:45,360
Speaker 4: clearly love this, right, They're they're getting per DM, they're

3009
02:48:45,360 --> 02:48:49,440
Speaker 4: getting travel pay, they make more money than they do

3010
02:48:49,440 --> 02:48:52,199
Speaker 4: in the border, and they don't have to like drive

3011
02:48:52,240 --> 02:48:54,840
Speaker 4: around in the middle of nowhere. They call it going

3012
02:48:54,840 --> 02:48:59,400
Speaker 4: on Safari. Homan has cited an increase in cooperation by

3013
02:48:59,400 --> 02:49:03,560
Speaker 4: Minnesota authorities. He was talking about handing over detained people

3014
02:49:03,600 --> 02:49:06,720
Speaker 4: who would be deportable, I think, but I have not

3015
02:49:06,879 --> 02:49:11,360
Speaker 4: seen a similar statement from state authorities in Minnesota, at

3016
02:49:11,400 --> 02:49:13,960
Speaker 4: least at a time so like take that with a

3017
02:49:14,000 --> 02:49:15,920
Speaker 4: pinch of salt. Right, A lot of what we see

3018
02:49:15,920 --> 02:49:18,120
Speaker 4: coming out of drum DHS just straight up isn't true.

3019
02:49:18,320 --> 02:49:22,560
Speaker 3: They have been talking about trying to like increase the

3020
02:49:22,600 --> 02:49:27,000
Speaker 3: cooperation with ICE detainers in the local prisons and jails.

3021
02:49:27,320 --> 02:49:30,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that would be what this cooperation

3022
02:49:30,600 --> 02:49:32,920
Speaker 4: would be. It would be like either cooperating with ICE

3023
02:49:32,959 --> 02:49:36,560
Speaker 4: detainers or even alerting ICE if they thought someone was deportable.

3024
02:49:37,240 --> 02:49:39,680
Speaker 3: An interesting thing of note, as well as earlier this week,

3025
02:49:40,120 --> 02:49:44,520
Speaker 3: the military troops that were placed on standby have been

3026
02:49:45,400 --> 02:49:50,800
Speaker 3: unplaced on standby, So not looking like those guys in

3027
02:49:50,840 --> 02:49:55,240
Speaker 3: Alaska or North Carolina will be deploying to Minneapolis. In

3028
02:49:55,320 --> 02:49:59,920
Speaker 3: some other Minneapolis related news, Don Lemon, front of the Park,

3029
02:50:00,440 --> 02:50:06,120
Speaker 3: was arrested Thursday, January twenty nine, and now faces civil

3030
02:50:06,200 --> 02:50:09,920
Speaker 3: rights charges for allegedly violating Face Act, which prohibits interfering

3031
02:50:09,920 --> 02:50:13,120
Speaker 3: with reproductive health services or people exercising religious freedom at

3032
02:50:13,160 --> 02:50:16,880
Speaker 3: a place of worship. On January eighteenth, Lemon reported on

3033
02:50:16,920 --> 02:50:19,520
Speaker 3: a protest at City's church in Saint Paul, where one

3034
02:50:19,560 --> 02:50:21,800
Speaker 3: of the pastors is also the head of the local

3035
02:50:21,840 --> 02:50:25,320
Speaker 3: ICE field office. A magistrate, judge and an appeals court

3036
02:50:25,360 --> 02:50:29,120
Speaker 3: previously dismissed the charges against Lemon before the case was

3037
02:50:29,160 --> 02:50:32,560
Speaker 3: brought before a grand jury in Minnesota. Six activists and

3038
02:50:32,560 --> 02:50:36,680
Speaker 3: one other journalists are also facing charges. We reported on

3039
02:50:36,720 --> 02:50:41,000
Speaker 3: this protest after it happened, and yeah, the DOJ has

3040
02:50:41,000 --> 02:50:44,240
Speaker 3: been trying to pin pin Lemon on this for the

3041
02:50:44,280 --> 02:50:47,600
Speaker 3: past few weeks. Yeah, probably not a great sign just

3042
02:50:47,720 --> 02:50:50,640
Speaker 3: for you know, general general first Amendment activity.

3043
02:50:50,879 --> 02:50:53,640
Speaker 4: No, no, that's a pretty pretty bleak side actually.

3044
02:50:53,600 --> 02:50:56,280
Speaker 3: As frustrating as as it is to start waiving the

3045
02:50:56,400 --> 02:51:00,440
Speaker 3: Jimmy Kimmel Don Lemon flag. You know that, that is

3046
02:51:00,480 --> 02:51:01,360
Speaker 3: the situation we're in.

3047
02:51:01,760 --> 02:51:04,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not good. The journalists they arrested was the

3048
02:51:04,959 --> 02:51:06,800
Speaker 4: head of the National Association of Black Journalists.

3049
02:51:06,800 --> 02:51:07,160
Speaker 9: What's' she?

3050
02:51:07,840 --> 02:51:11,520
Speaker 4: Georgia fort is her name? Yes, yes, I do want

3051
02:51:11,560 --> 02:51:15,000
Speaker 4: to say actually that like when we talk about protections

3052
02:51:15,000 --> 02:51:18,320
Speaker 4: for journalists, like journalists, yes, can often be the people

3053
02:51:18,320 --> 02:51:22,080
Speaker 4: who were first targeted for like things that violate freedom

3054
02:51:22,120 --> 02:51:24,199
Speaker 4: of speech. Right, Like when governments are going to violate

3055
02:51:24,240 --> 02:51:26,160
Speaker 4: freedom of speech, they can go after journalists first. But

3056
02:51:26,280 --> 02:51:31,720
Speaker 4: like when someone is recording ice operations, they are doing

3057
02:51:31,800 --> 02:51:35,680
Speaker 4: citizen journalism, they are protected by exactly the same rights

3058
02:51:35,680 --> 02:51:37,360
Speaker 4: that we have as journalists who are doing this as

3059
02:51:37,360 --> 02:51:39,520
Speaker 4: our full time job. There isn't a special first Amendment

3060
02:51:39,560 --> 02:51:41,480
Speaker 4: for us. And so when the border patrol agents killed

3061
02:51:41,480 --> 02:51:44,400
Speaker 4: Alex Pretty, they killed someone who is at that time

3062
02:51:44,440 --> 02:51:48,440
Speaker 4: engaged to journalism too. And like, I'm happy to see

3063
02:51:49,560 --> 02:51:54,120
Speaker 4: journalistic bodies standing up, not just for people who employed

3064
02:51:54,160 --> 02:51:56,119
Speaker 4: this full time journalists have put all of our rights

3065
02:51:56,160 --> 02:51:57,279
Speaker 4: to document and record.

3066
02:51:57,640 --> 02:52:00,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, all of the legal observers who are film ICE

3067
02:52:00,320 --> 02:52:03,800
Speaker 3: as well that are being targeted with intimidation, being pulled over.

3068
02:52:04,080 --> 02:52:05,320
Speaker 4: Having guns pointed at them, etc.

3069
02:52:05,840 --> 02:52:06,240
Speaker 9: Yeah.

3070
02:52:06,360 --> 02:52:09,880
Speaker 4: Do you want to talk about the Senate funding for ICE? Oh?

3071
02:52:10,040 --> 02:52:10,320
Speaker 9: Do I?

3072
02:52:10,920 --> 02:52:14,680
Speaker 3: So the partial government shut down, which did start last

3073
02:52:14,680 --> 02:52:18,800
Speaker 3: week was ended on Tuesday after the DJs bill was

3074
02:52:18,879 --> 02:52:21,640
Speaker 3: stripped out of the now one point two trillion dollar

3075
02:52:21,760 --> 02:52:26,720
Speaker 3: annual funding package. DHS's funding will lapse on Friday the thirteenth,

3076
02:52:27,160 --> 02:52:28,520
Speaker 3: and negotiation.

3077
02:52:33,640 --> 02:52:34,040
Speaker 4: Why not.

3078
02:52:35,600 --> 02:52:41,040
Speaker 3: While negotiations continue on a DHS funding bill, Congressional Democrats

3079
02:52:41,040 --> 02:52:44,000
Speaker 3: are pushing for agency reforms like judicial warrants and no

3080
02:52:44,120 --> 02:52:48,959
Speaker 3: masked agents, while Republicans are signaling minor concessions like having

3081
02:52:48,959 --> 02:52:52,320
Speaker 3: a border patrol and ICE wear body cameras Yeah.

3082
02:52:52,120 --> 02:52:54,359
Speaker 4: Should we talk a little bit more about body cameras.

3083
02:52:54,760 --> 02:52:57,160
Speaker 3: You know what, my favorite topic. Let's talk about body

3084
02:52:57,200 --> 02:52:57,800
Speaker 3: cameras again.

3085
02:52:58,560 --> 02:53:01,440
Speaker 4: I love to talk about a body worn camera.

3086
02:53:01,840 --> 02:53:03,000
Speaker 3: Time was a flat circle.

3087
02:53:03,320 --> 02:53:08,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, So Christie Nome this week announced that ICE

3088
02:53:08,879 --> 02:53:12,120
Speaker 4: agents in Minnesota were going to where body worn cameras

3089
02:53:12,160 --> 02:53:14,720
Speaker 4: going forward. And I've been kind of disappointed a lot

3090
02:53:14,760 --> 02:53:18,240
Speaker 4: of the reporting on this. What is I think missing

3091
02:53:18,320 --> 02:53:19,680
Speaker 4: is that that, like, there was a twenty twenty two

3092
02:53:19,720 --> 02:53:23,320
Speaker 4: executive order right signed by Biden the ordered federal law

3093
02:53:23,360 --> 02:53:27,440
Speaker 4: enforcement to use body worn cameras. Funding for them was

3094
02:53:27,600 --> 02:53:30,199
Speaker 4: included in the twenty twenty one for SCOOL year appropriations built.

3095
02:53:30,879 --> 02:53:33,720
Speaker 4: Nome has said they will grow the program as funds

3096
02:53:33,720 --> 02:53:37,080
Speaker 4: become available, but those funds have been available for some time.

3097
02:53:37,320 --> 02:53:40,920
Speaker 4: Right In twenty twenty four document ICE document that talked

3098
02:53:40,920 --> 02:53:44,840
Speaker 4: about their pilot program study, they said, quote full implementation

3099
02:53:44,920 --> 02:53:48,600
Speaker 4: is expected by September thirtieth, twenty twenty five. Eagle eared

3100
02:53:48,640 --> 02:53:51,600
Speaker 4: listers will notice that it's in the past. However, in

3101
02:53:51,680 --> 02:53:54,320
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, ICE began and rolling this back. They

3102
02:53:54,360 --> 02:53:58,400
Speaker 4: issued a directive which continued only implementing the body worn

3103
02:53:58,400 --> 02:54:02,280
Speaker 4: camera program in the certain pilot programs cities. The Trump administration,

3104
02:54:02,320 --> 02:54:04,959
Speaker 4: in its second term, has called Congress to cut funding

3105
02:54:05,080 --> 02:54:08,640
Speaker 4: for body worn cameras by seventy five percent and reduce

3106
02:54:08,720 --> 02:54:11,320
Speaker 4: the staffing of the body worn camera program from twenty

3107
02:54:11,360 --> 02:54:15,600
Speaker 4: two people to just three. They have also cut oversight

3108
02:54:15,640 --> 02:54:19,959
Speaker 4: offices within DHS like oh IDO. O IDEO is like

3109
02:54:20,000 --> 02:54:22,360
Speaker 4: the nichest level of DHS. Understand that when you know

3110
02:54:22,400 --> 02:54:25,119
Speaker 4: of o IDEO, I think Biden created it. I actually

3111
02:54:25,120 --> 02:54:28,560
Speaker 4: I've seen them once. It's the Office of the Immigration

3112
02:54:28,680 --> 02:54:34,400
Speaker 4: Detention ombardsmen. They came to the outdoor detention sites in

3113
02:54:34,440 --> 02:54:37,640
Speaker 4: hercumber which seems to be something of a concession that

3114
02:54:37,760 --> 02:54:39,920
Speaker 4: by the administration at the time denied people were detained

3115
02:54:39,959 --> 02:54:43,160
Speaker 4: in those sites. It had one hundred plus employees at

3116
02:54:43,200 --> 02:54:45,960
Speaker 4: start of the Trump administration. It also has three now

3117
02:54:46,160 --> 02:54:49,680
Speaker 4: according to Reuters. This most recent bill, as Garrison said,

3118
02:54:49,720 --> 02:54:53,000
Speaker 4: does include funding and a mandate for their use. A

3119
02:54:53,040 --> 02:54:56,360
Speaker 4: federal judge in Chicago had already ordered agents there to

3120
02:54:56,400 --> 02:54:59,400
Speaker 4: wear cameras in November of last year. I should note

3121
02:54:59,440 --> 02:55:01,440
Speaker 4: that I also looked up the ice body warm camera

3122
02:55:01,520 --> 02:55:04,960
Speaker 4: policy and theoretically now in so far of any of

3123
02:55:05,000 --> 02:55:07,640
Speaker 4: these policies are being followed right, prohibits them for using

3124
02:55:07,680 --> 02:55:11,000
Speaker 4: body warm cameras for the quote sole purpose of recording

3125
02:55:11,040 --> 02:55:14,680
Speaker 4: people engaged in First Amendment protected activities. So they can

3126
02:55:14,760 --> 02:55:16,920
Speaker 4: just use their phones for that. I guess that's what

3127
02:55:16,959 --> 02:55:17,600
Speaker 4: they've been doing.

3128
02:55:18,240 --> 02:55:21,000
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, this is like part of the frustration

3129
02:55:21,240 --> 02:55:23,720
Speaker 3: around this bill is you do have humor pushing for

3130
02:55:23,800 --> 02:55:26,600
Speaker 3: certain things like like not wearing masks and not doing

3131
02:55:26,640 --> 02:55:29,280
Speaker 3: the rolling raids. Will also emphasizing you know, you want

3132
02:55:29,280 --> 02:55:32,000
Speaker 3: the masks off and the cameras on, as if that's

3133
02:55:32,040 --> 02:55:35,279
Speaker 3: going to affect the behavior of agents on the ground. Meanwhile,

3134
02:55:35,920 --> 02:55:39,560
Speaker 3: during the killing of Renee Good, the officer that shot

3135
02:55:39,600 --> 02:55:42,840
Speaker 3: and killed her was filming the whole thing on his phone.

3136
02:55:42,959 --> 02:55:47,879
Speaker 3: He was filming on his own cell phone, so obvious. Obviously. Yeah,

3137
02:55:47,920 --> 02:55:51,560
Speaker 3: having a camera on the agent is not going to

3138
02:55:51,560 --> 02:55:53,480
Speaker 3: prevent them from killing someone.

3139
02:55:53,240 --> 02:55:56,039
Speaker 2: Because they think it's good what they're doing. Yeah, they

3140
02:55:56,040 --> 02:55:57,000
Speaker 2: don't think it's bad.

3141
02:55:57,760 --> 02:56:01,400
Speaker 4: You have to understand that agents who shot Alex pretty

3142
02:56:01,440 --> 02:56:05,680
Speaker 4: actually had body worn cameras and they're actually CBP agents.

3143
02:56:05,720 --> 02:56:10,039
Speaker 4: So CBP or BP, I should say, right, customs are Border.

3144
02:56:09,760 --> 02:56:12,520
Speaker 3: Protection, one of them is CPP. One of them's PP.

3145
02:56:12,720 --> 02:56:16,440
Speaker 4: That's correct. Yeah, that's they're they're both CBP agents, but

3146
02:56:16,560 --> 02:56:20,720
Speaker 4: within CBP you have BP and OFO. Okay, they get

3147
02:56:20,720 --> 02:56:23,680
Speaker 4: really mad if you get this wrong. Literally, I've got

3148
02:56:23,680 --> 02:56:25,680
Speaker 4: an email once for a subject line. Come on, man.

3149
02:56:26,760 --> 02:56:31,359
Speaker 4: So they were both Customs and Border Protection agents generally

3150
02:56:31,520 --> 02:56:34,520
Speaker 4: border patrol. Border Patrol is part of Customs and Border Protection,

3151
02:56:34,600 --> 02:56:36,440
Speaker 4: right the other part of the Office of Field Operations.

3152
02:56:36,720 --> 02:56:39,400
Speaker 4: Border Patrol ceased using their cameras early in the Trump administration,

3153
02:56:39,600 --> 02:56:42,960
Speaker 4: citing an issue with the bluetooth used by the cameras

3154
02:56:42,959 --> 02:56:46,040
Speaker 4: that could make them detectable. This is a thing that

3155
02:56:46,240 --> 02:56:50,840
Speaker 4: can happen. It is possible. There's a GitHub script for this.

3156
02:56:51,480 --> 02:56:54,880
Speaker 4: Whether they're justifiers stopping using them is an entirely different question.

3157
02:56:55,480 --> 02:56:58,680
Speaker 4: Both the agents in the pretty shooting were wearing body

3158
02:56:58,720 --> 02:57:01,520
Speaker 4: can but we have not seen footage. The two agents

3159
02:57:01,520 --> 02:57:05,120
Speaker 4: have been identified by Pro Publica as Border Patrol agent

3160
02:57:05,879 --> 02:57:09,960
Speaker 4: Jizus jesse Or Choa and Customs and Border Protection Officer

3161
02:57:10,000 --> 02:57:14,600
Speaker 4: Field Operations Officer Raimundo Gutierrez. A Choa joined twenty eighteen.

3162
02:57:14,640 --> 02:57:18,920
Speaker 4: Gutierrez joined in twenty fourteen. Gutierrez is part of the

3163
02:57:19,680 --> 02:57:23,959
Speaker 4: Officer Field Operations Special Response team that is generally a

3164
02:57:24,000 --> 02:57:27,720
Speaker 4: team with training in weapons and tactics who would serve

3165
02:57:27,800 --> 02:57:30,400
Speaker 4: high risk warrants do raids.

3166
02:57:30,560 --> 02:57:31,720
Speaker 5: I guess swat style.

3167
02:57:32,280 --> 02:57:34,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's another word for swat. I think because what

3168
02:57:34,720 --> 02:57:37,600
Speaker 4: became somewhat you know, they decided they wanted a different

3169
02:57:37,600 --> 02:57:40,280
Speaker 4: word for it. Sure, pro Publica I got an interview

3170
02:57:40,320 --> 02:57:42,680
Speaker 4: with the choa's ex wife who said, quote, by the

3171
02:57:42,680 --> 02:57:44,440
Speaker 4: time the couple split in twenty twenty one, he had

3172
02:57:44,520 --> 02:57:47,680
Speaker 4: become a gun enthusiast, with about twenty five rifles, pistols

3173
02:57:47,680 --> 02:57:51,000
Speaker 4: and shotguns. In so much as that matters, I guess

3174
02:57:51,480 --> 02:57:53,680
Speaker 4: that was the only interview they could get about them.

3175
02:57:54,000 --> 02:57:56,560
Speaker 4: Both of the men are from South Texas.

3176
02:57:57,560 --> 02:58:01,240
Speaker 3: To circle back to the funding bill for DHS and

3177
02:58:01,280 --> 02:58:04,080
Speaker 3: these potential reforms being pushed for at you know, multiple

3178
02:58:04,160 --> 02:58:06,640
Speaker 3: levels of the Democratic establishment, you know, with Schumer being

3179
02:58:06,640 --> 02:58:10,080
Speaker 3: a little bit lighter and obviously people like AOC and

3180
02:58:10,200 --> 02:58:15,360
Speaker 3: to leave pushing for more extreme measures like abolishing the

3181
02:58:15,400 --> 02:58:19,560
Speaker 3: agency advice, which is unlikely to happen in this funding

3182
02:58:19,600 --> 02:58:23,000
Speaker 3: bill as the Republicans control Congress. But still there is

3183
02:58:23,000 --> 02:58:25,920
Speaker 3: a spectrum of beliefs among the party at the moment.

3184
02:58:26,280 --> 02:58:29,480
Speaker 3: And to get a look at what average regular registered

3185
02:58:29,520 --> 02:58:32,360
Speaker 3: Democrats believe. There's a new poll from you gov that

3186
02:58:32,480 --> 02:58:36,760
Speaker 3: came out this week based on data from late January

3187
02:58:36,840 --> 02:58:42,320
Speaker 3: early February that have seventy nine percent of Democrats saying

3188
02:58:42,360 --> 02:58:46,760
Speaker 3: they support abolishing ICE. Abolishing ICE is also up eight

3189
02:58:46,800 --> 02:58:51,440
Speaker 3: points with Independence and more people overall support abolishing ICE

3190
02:58:51,879 --> 02:58:55,959
Speaker 3: at forty six percent to forty four percent opposing.

3191
02:58:56,920 --> 02:58:59,200
Speaker 4: So, just to finish up on our immigration coveray to

3192
02:58:59,280 --> 02:59:02,000
Speaker 4: the week, we also saw Judge Cobb with the DC

3193
02:59:02,200 --> 02:59:05,760
Speaker 4: District Court grant a tentative restraining order that prevents DHS

3194
02:59:05,760 --> 02:59:09,200
Speaker 4: from denying Congress people the right to inspect immigration attention

3195
02:59:09,320 --> 02:59:13,920
Speaker 4: facilities without notice. Previously, DHS had been asserting that they

3196
02:59:14,000 --> 02:59:16,240
Speaker 4: had a seven day period of notice that they had

3197
02:59:16,240 --> 02:59:19,480
Speaker 4: to give before they could inspect attention facilities. The judges

3198
02:59:19,480 --> 02:59:24,199
Speaker 4: found that that's not justified. Another eight attorneys have left

3199
02:59:24,480 --> 02:59:28,000
Speaker 4: or announced intentions to leave the US Attorney's office in Minnesota.

3200
02:59:28,640 --> 02:59:31,320
Speaker 4: They are now operating at less than half the capacity

3201
02:59:31,600 --> 02:59:34,840
Speaker 4: of assistant USA attorneys that they had in the early

3202
02:59:34,879 --> 02:59:38,480
Speaker 4: Biden administration. They've also lost several non attorney staff, and

3203
02:59:38,560 --> 02:59:40,840
Speaker 4: the Star Tribune reports that this is due to concerns

3204
02:59:40,879 --> 02:59:44,240
Speaker 4: about selective prosecution. And the exclusion of state and local

3205
02:59:44,240 --> 02:59:48,080
Speaker 4: investigators from the good and pretty cases. In court yesterday,

3206
02:59:48,280 --> 02:59:51,120
Speaker 4: one federal prosecutor said, and I'm quoting from the transcript here,

3207
02:59:51,280 --> 02:59:55,600
Speaker 4: this system sucks. This job sucks. Another quotation. I am

3208
02:59:55,680 --> 02:59:58,080
Speaker 4: here just trying to make sure that the agency understand

3209
02:59:58,120 --> 03:00:00,320
Speaker 4: how important it is to comply with all the court orders,

3210
03:00:00,600 --> 03:00:02,800
Speaker 4: which they have not done in the past or currently.

3211
03:00:03,400 --> 03:00:05,800
Speaker 4: I'm here as a bridge and a liaison between the

3212
03:00:05,800 --> 03:00:08,640
Speaker 4: one that in jail, because if I walk out sometimes

3213
03:00:08,680 --> 03:00:10,680
Speaker 4: I wish you would just hold me in contempt your honor,

3214
03:00:10,879 --> 03:00:12,720
Speaker 4: so that they could have a full twenty four hours

3215
03:00:12,720 --> 03:00:16,760
Speaker 4: of sleep. Yikes, it's just a person on the ragged edge. Yeah,

3216
03:00:17,200 --> 03:00:19,879
Speaker 4: that is someone who is breaking. Yeah.

3217
03:00:20,000 --> 03:00:20,480
Speaker 5: I mean.

3218
03:00:22,160 --> 03:00:26,040
Speaker 4: You could look up her caseload and it is legitimately insane. Yeah,

3219
03:00:26,280 --> 03:00:28,720
Speaker 4: and it has only got bigger since the start of

3220
03:00:28,720 --> 03:00:31,240
Speaker 4: the year. You can see why people are are quitting

3221
03:00:31,240 --> 03:00:33,440
Speaker 4: this job, even if they like don't have a moral

3222
03:00:34,040 --> 03:00:36,880
Speaker 4: issue with it, because it's an inhumane amount of work.

3223
03:00:37,080 --> 03:00:39,320
Speaker 2: And again, like, I'm not coming at this from a

3224
03:00:39,320 --> 03:00:41,760
Speaker 2: point of a lot of sympathy, but it's not funny.

3225
03:00:42,000 --> 03:00:45,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's funny. It's just funny. It's funny to

3226
03:00:45,080 --> 03:00:47,560
Speaker 4: see them so obviously frustrated that their agencies are just

3227
03:00:47,600 --> 03:00:49,600
Speaker 4: not complying with what they asked them do. That she

3228
03:00:49,680 --> 03:00:51,520
Speaker 4: I was reading the transcript today is judging the case.

3229
03:00:51,640 --> 03:00:53,320
Speaker 4: Was like, look, you can tell me the agencies are

3230
03:00:53,320 --> 03:00:55,120
Speaker 4: not complying, But like, if I have a problem in

3231
03:00:55,120 --> 03:00:56,960
Speaker 4: the restaurant, I don't walk in there and try and

3232
03:00:57,000 --> 03:00:59,400
Speaker 4: find the exact person who's baking the bread. I talk

3233
03:00:59,480 --> 03:01:01,600
Speaker 4: to the restauran, and the restaurant sorted out you are

3234
03:01:01,640 --> 03:01:04,080
Speaker 4: part of the executive branch. Yeah, this is on you.

3235
03:01:04,480 --> 03:01:08,280
Speaker 4: Like it was a good, little little core exchange. And

3236
03:01:08,320 --> 03:01:11,120
Speaker 4: then finally NBC has obtained a leaked email from Greg

3237
03:01:11,160 --> 03:01:15,560
Speaker 4: Bovino showing tensions between himself and Todd Lyons. Lions is

3238
03:01:15,560 --> 03:01:18,600
Speaker 4: the acting director of Immigration and custom to Enforcement. Lions

3239
03:01:18,600 --> 03:01:22,080
Speaker 4: attempted to prevent Baveno from engaging in widespread sweeps in

3240
03:01:22,080 --> 03:01:24,600
Speaker 4: which agents kind of ran around check papers on anyone

3241
03:01:24,600 --> 03:01:27,000
Speaker 4: they think might not be a citizen, and he encouraged

3242
03:01:27,040 --> 03:01:31,160
Speaker 4: him to do targeted operations instead. And then mister Bovino

3243
03:01:31,240 --> 03:01:33,800
Speaker 4: said in the email quote, mister Lyons said he was

3244
03:01:33,800 --> 03:01:36,160
Speaker 4: in charge, and I corrected him, saying, I report to

3245
03:01:36,240 --> 03:01:41,879
Speaker 4: Corey Lewandowski, Garrison has just made a face for those.

3246
03:01:42,920 --> 03:01:44,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, and if you want to hear more about our

3247
03:01:45,000 --> 03:01:48,000
Speaker 12: dear buddy, Greg, Robert and I recorded an episode with

3248
03:01:48,080 --> 03:01:51,080
Speaker 12: Jack O'Brien from Behind the Bastards that's dropping next Thursday.

3249
03:01:51,200 --> 03:01:53,520
Speaker 1: Oh, sick all about Greg Bavino.

3250
03:01:55,320 --> 03:01:57,640
Speaker 3: Greg's been on a bit of a tour on his

3251
03:01:57,720 --> 03:01:58,880
Speaker 3: way back to California.

3252
03:01:59,000 --> 03:02:04,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, he wrote, But he went to Mount Rushmore to

3253
03:02:04,200 --> 03:02:06,840
Speaker 4: record like a moto video and then he was spotted

3254
03:02:06,879 --> 03:02:09,440
Speaker 4: drinking a glass of red wine in Las Vegas. Yeah,

3255
03:02:09,520 --> 03:02:11,320
Speaker 4: it seems like they made him road trip.

3256
03:02:11,200 --> 03:02:14,000
Speaker 2: Like a weirdo who's drinking. You're drinking the house wine

3257
03:02:14,000 --> 03:02:19,879
Speaker 2: at a casino in Vegas. Come the fuck on, Greg Upreg, Yeah,

3258
03:02:20,800 --> 03:02:22,320
Speaker 2: have a fucking cocktail.

3259
03:02:22,520 --> 03:02:26,080
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ. I think he's back in Imperial now. But

3260
03:02:26,840 --> 03:02:28,879
Speaker 4: it was. It seems that they made him take a

3261
03:02:28,920 --> 03:02:31,720
Speaker 4: road trip home. They didn't fly him back, wouldn't spring

3262
03:02:31,760 --> 03:02:34,520
Speaker 4: for the plane trip. Yeah, he's quite.

3263
03:02:34,360 --> 03:02:53,359
Speaker 3: Remarkable, incredible, gestapo, unbelievable. All right, we are back. Last Wednesday,

3264
03:02:53,520 --> 03:02:57,080
Speaker 3: January twenty eighth, the FBI executed a raid on the

3265
03:02:57,120 --> 03:03:00,800
Speaker 3: Fulton County election office outside of Atlanta, Georgia as a

3266
03:03:00,840 --> 03:03:04,000
Speaker 3: part of an investigation into Trump's claim that the twenty

3267
03:03:04,120 --> 03:03:08,000
Speaker 3: twenty election was rigged against him. The special Agent in

3268
03:03:08,120 --> 03:03:11,320
Speaker 3: charge of the FBI Atlanta Field Office resigned a week

3269
03:03:11,400 --> 03:03:14,640
Speaker 3: before the warrant was served. This search warrant was signed

3270
03:03:14,640 --> 03:03:17,760
Speaker 3: by a United States Magistrate judge and instructed investigators to

3271
03:03:17,840 --> 03:03:22,040
Speaker 3: seize quote all records relating to violations of Title fifty

3272
03:03:22,080 --> 03:03:26,760
Speaker 3: two US Code two zero seven zero one and two

3273
03:03:26,959 --> 03:03:32,000
Speaker 3: oh five one one, with these violations occurring quote after

3274
03:03:32,200 --> 03:03:37,760
Speaker 3: October twelfth, twenty twenty unquote. The former statute here two

3275
03:03:37,760 --> 03:03:41,560
Speaker 3: seven one relates to retaining and preserving election records for

3276
03:03:41,640 --> 03:03:46,279
Speaker 3: twenty two months after an election, and the latter two

3277
03:03:46,320 --> 03:03:50,439
Speaker 3: five one one relates to voter fraud or threats, intimidation,

3278
03:03:50,520 --> 03:03:55,400
Speaker 3: and coersion against voters. The records that were to be

3279
03:03:55,520 --> 03:03:58,760
Speaker 3: seized are listed on the warrant as quote all physical

3280
03:03:58,760 --> 03:04:01,840
Speaker 3: ballots from the twenty twenty general election in Fulton County,

3281
03:04:02,080 --> 03:04:05,879
Speaker 3: all tabulator tapes for every voting machine, all ballot images

3282
03:04:05,959 --> 03:04:09,040
Speaker 3: produced during the original ballot count, All voter roles from

3283
03:04:09,080 --> 03:04:12,279
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty general election in Fulton County from absentee,

3284
03:04:12,320 --> 03:04:16,200
Speaker 3: early and in person voting and any electronically stored information

3285
03:04:16,520 --> 03:04:21,400
Speaker 3: relevant to those items above. The Fulton County Commissioner mount

3286
03:04:21,480 --> 03:04:26,400
Speaker 3: Ivory said that federal officials took seven hundred boxes of ballots,

3287
03:04:27,040 --> 03:04:32,600
Speaker 3: and curiously, Director of National Intelligence Tulci Gabbert appeared at

3288
03:04:32,600 --> 03:04:34,920
Speaker 3: the side of the search and had a phone call

3289
03:04:35,000 --> 03:04:40,240
Speaker 3: with Trump. After the raid concluded, Gabert sent a letter

3290
03:04:40,320 --> 03:04:44,480
Speaker 3: to Congress on Monday, claiming, quote, my presence was requested

3291
03:04:44,480 --> 03:04:48,720
Speaker 3: by the President and executed under my broad statutory authority

3292
03:04:48,720 --> 03:04:53,080
Speaker 3: to coordinate, integrate, and analyze intelligence relating to election security,

3293
03:04:53,400 --> 03:04:59,000
Speaker 3: including counter intelligence, foreign and other malign influences, and cybersecurity unquote.

3294
03:04:59,280 --> 03:05:01,920
Speaker 3: She also wrote on x the everything app quote the

3295
03:05:02,000 --> 03:05:04,720
Speaker 3: Office of the Director of National Intelligence has and will

3296
03:05:04,720 --> 03:05:07,800
Speaker 3: continue to take action under my statutory authorities to secure

3297
03:05:07,800 --> 03:05:13,280
Speaker 3: our nation ensure the integrity of our elections. I will

3298
03:05:13,320 --> 03:05:17,800
Speaker 3: include here that four days before January sixth, twenty twenty one,

3299
03:05:18,520 --> 03:05:22,879
Speaker 3: Trump told George's top election official to quote unquote find

3300
03:05:23,240 --> 03:05:27,959
Speaker 3: enough votes to overturn the election. Here's a recording of

3301
03:05:28,000 --> 03:05:28,520
Speaker 3: that phone call.

3302
03:05:28,879 --> 03:05:31,200
Speaker 13: All I want to do is this. I just want

3303
03:05:31,200 --> 03:05:32,039
Speaker 13: to find.

3304
03:05:33,720 --> 03:05:38,080
Speaker 8: Eleven thousand, seven hundred and eighty votes.

3305
03:05:38,959 --> 03:05:42,280
Speaker 3: The Trump administration has made multiple unsuccessful attempts to gain

3306
03:05:42,320 --> 03:05:46,439
Speaker 3: access to the twenty twenty Georgia ballots through civil suits.

3307
03:05:47,080 --> 03:05:50,680
Speaker 3: Now they have just turned to executing search warrant through

3308
03:05:50,720 --> 03:05:54,360
Speaker 3: the FBI. On February first, Mike Johnson was asked to

3309
03:05:54,440 --> 03:05:58,320
Speaker 3: vote potential election medaling in Georgia. Here is this exchange

3310
03:05:58,560 --> 03:06:00,199
Speaker 3: from NBC News.

3311
03:06:00,440 --> 03:06:03,160
Speaker 16: What do you say to that allegation that President Trump

3312
03:06:03,600 --> 03:06:06,879
Speaker 16: is going to meddle in the twenty twenty six midterm elections,

3313
03:06:06,879 --> 03:06:08,320
Speaker 16: that that's what he's doing in Georgia.

3314
03:06:08,560 --> 03:06:11,120
Speaker 13: I find it comical that one of the senators from

3315
03:06:11,160 --> 03:06:14,800
Speaker 13: Georgia is talking about schemes in elections. Remember, Georgia was

3316
03:06:14,879 --> 03:06:17,920
Speaker 13: example a of that. In the twenty twenty election.

3317
03:06:18,360 --> 03:06:20,400
Speaker 16: There were two statewide recounts in Georgia.

3318
03:06:20,760 --> 03:06:22,600
Speaker 5: They see the mail out balance to everyone.

3319
03:06:22,720 --> 03:06:25,720
Speaker 13: Everyone knows all of the problems that occurred in Georgia.

3320
03:06:25,760 --> 03:06:28,640
Speaker 13: It was very controversially and remains so to this day

3321
03:06:28,760 --> 03:06:31,080
Speaker 13: because of all the things that happened there. Again, we're

3322
03:06:31,080 --> 03:06:32,760
Speaker 13: not going to relitigate that. But what we have to

3323
03:06:32,800 --> 03:06:35,680
Speaker 13: focus on is going forward to ensure that there are

3324
03:06:35,720 --> 03:06:38,920
Speaker 13: not questions about the elections. And that's why Republicans are

3325
03:06:38,959 --> 03:06:41,720
Speaker 13: working at the federal and the state levels to clean

3326
03:06:41,800 --> 03:06:43,720
Speaker 13: those things up and clean up voter rolls to make

3327
03:06:43,720 --> 03:06:45,960
Speaker 13: sure illegals are not voting, for example. That's what the

3328
03:06:46,000 --> 03:06:48,600
Speaker 13: Save Act is about, and we have to continue that

3329
03:06:48,680 --> 03:06:51,000
Speaker 13: and the President is keeping a proper focus on it.

3330
03:06:51,200 --> 03:06:54,160
Speaker 13: This investigation is to ensure that all the questions that

3331
03:06:54,920 --> 03:06:58,400
Speaker 13: about the elections in Fulton County are investigated properly so

3332
03:06:58,440 --> 03:07:00,280
Speaker 13: that people have confidence in this system.

3333
03:07:00,280 --> 03:07:01,320
Speaker 5: A kah, that's very important.

3334
03:07:01,320 --> 03:07:04,680
Speaker 16: But there are really no questions about election in Tigry

3335
03:07:04,720 --> 03:07:07,120
Speaker 16: from twenty twenty that have not been asked and answered.

3336
03:07:07,240 --> 03:07:11,920
Speaker 16: Even the Republican note, the Republican led governor has pointed out,

3337
03:07:12,160 --> 03:07:14,720
Speaker 16: it's been years and no one has ever come forward

3338
03:07:15,280 --> 03:07:17,680
Speaker 16: under oath with evidence of fraud in Georgia.

3339
03:07:17,760 --> 03:07:20,320
Speaker 3: But let me ask you, pretty absurd stuff.

3340
03:07:20,680 --> 03:07:23,360
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, we're not going to relitigate it as we

3341
03:07:23,400 --> 03:07:24,240
Speaker 12: rel litigate it.

3342
03:07:24,640 --> 03:07:27,520
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, and just giving no evidence, just being like, oh,

3343
03:07:27,560 --> 03:07:29,680
Speaker 4: it's very controversial, everyone knows, like.

3344
03:07:30,360 --> 03:07:31,879
Speaker 1: Such a weasly answer.

3345
03:07:32,240 --> 03:07:32,959
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3346
03:07:33,080 --> 03:07:35,600
Speaker 3: Republican Governor Brian Camp has been very clear that there

3347
03:07:35,720 --> 03:07:39,760
Speaker 3: was absolutely no fraud happening in Georgia during twenty twenty

3348
03:07:39,920 --> 03:07:42,320
Speaker 3: and if there was any attempt to meddle with the election.

3349
03:07:42,760 --> 03:07:44,959
Speaker 3: It is this phone call that Trump made to the

3350
03:07:44,959 --> 03:07:48,200
Speaker 3: Georgia Secretary of State, Yeah, asking to find a certain

3351
03:07:48,280 --> 03:07:52,119
Speaker 3: number of votes that itself should have resulted in Trump

3352
03:07:52,160 --> 03:07:55,720
Speaker 3: going to prison like South Korea style, like you're done,

3353
03:07:55,840 --> 03:07:57,400
Speaker 3: You're finished. You can't do that.

3354
03:07:57,800 --> 03:08:01,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is like the most transparent election interference.

3355
03:08:01,840 --> 03:08:05,240
Speaker 3: The way that Trump's court case in Fulton County related

3356
03:08:05,280 --> 03:08:08,680
Speaker 3: to his attempts to meddle into twenty twenty election is

3357
03:08:08,840 --> 03:08:11,640
Speaker 3: just a complete disaster due to coruption within the Fulton

3358
03:08:11,640 --> 03:08:13,959
Speaker 3: County courses tom itself. One of the worst things to

3359
03:08:14,000 --> 03:08:16,880
Speaker 3: happen during this like Biden era, is the mishandling of

3360
03:08:16,920 --> 03:08:21,320
Speaker 3: the court cases around Trump's attempts to overturn the election. Yeah,

3361
03:08:21,440 --> 03:08:24,160
Speaker 3: and especially like looking at at what South Cura did

3362
03:08:24,400 --> 03:08:27,360
Speaker 3: after their president tried to take over the country a

3363
03:08:27,440 --> 03:08:30,160
Speaker 3: year or two ago, is like, oh, yeah, that's very

3364
03:08:30,160 --> 03:08:31,720
Speaker 3: clearly what we should have done with this guy.

3365
03:08:31,840 --> 03:08:33,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, people could have done better.

3366
03:08:33,879 --> 03:08:36,840
Speaker 3: And Mike Johnson just keeps making really concerning statements on

3367
03:08:36,920 --> 03:08:41,039
Speaker 3: the news about quote unquote nationalizing elections.

3368
03:08:41,160 --> 03:08:42,400
Speaker 4: I follow up on elections.

3369
03:08:42,440 --> 03:08:44,920
Speaker 2: The president says that he wants Republicans.

3370
03:08:44,320 --> 03:08:45,920
Speaker 5: To nationalize elections.

3371
03:08:45,959 --> 03:08:48,200
Speaker 2: Do you agree with him and do you have confidence

3372
03:08:48,600 --> 03:08:50,160
Speaker 2: in how elections are conducted?

3373
03:08:50,240 --> 03:08:51,920
Speaker 5: Right now heading into the midterm.

3374
03:08:52,240 --> 03:08:55,879
Speaker 13: We have thoughtfuled debate about our election system every election cycle,

3375
03:08:55,920 --> 03:08:58,039
Speaker 13: and sometimes in between. We know it's in our system.

3376
03:08:58,080 --> 03:08:59,680
Speaker 13: The states have been in charge of a minister in

3377
03:08:59,720 --> 03:09:02,000
Speaker 13: their life elections. What you're hearing from the President is

3378
03:09:02,000 --> 03:09:05,480
Speaker 13: his frustration about the lack of some of the Blue states, frankly,

3379
03:09:06,320 --> 03:09:07,680
Speaker 13: of enforcing these things.

3380
03:09:07,959 --> 03:09:12,439
Speaker 3: Make Johnson goes on to discuss possible fraud in California specifically,

3381
03:09:13,000 --> 03:09:16,480
Speaker 3: though admits that he has no evidence of said fraud.

3382
03:09:16,680 --> 03:09:17,400
Speaker 3: One more clip.

3383
03:09:17,760 --> 03:09:19,880
Speaker 13: In some of the states, like in California, for example,

3384
03:09:20,040 --> 03:09:22,360
Speaker 13: I mean, they hold the elections open for weeks after

3385
03:09:22,400 --> 03:09:25,480
Speaker 13: election day. That's just one thing that bothers so many people.

3386
03:09:25,959 --> 03:09:28,560
Speaker 13: We had three House Republican candidates who are ahead on

3387
03:09:28,640 --> 03:09:31,760
Speaker 13: election day in the last election cycle, and every time

3388
03:09:31,800 --> 03:09:34,359
Speaker 13: a new tranche of ballots came in, they just magically

3389
03:09:34,400 --> 03:09:35,920
Speaker 13: whittled away until their.

3390
03:09:35,879 --> 03:09:36,720
Speaker 5: Leads were lost.

3391
03:09:36,840 --> 03:09:40,400
Speaker 13: And no series of ballots that were counted after election

3392
03:09:40,520 --> 03:09:44,120
Speaker 13: day were our candidates ahead on any of those counts.

3393
03:09:43,959 --> 03:09:47,400
Speaker 13: It looks on its face to be fraudulent. Can I

3394
03:09:47,400 --> 03:09:49,800
Speaker 13: prove that, No, because it happened so far upstream. But

3395
03:09:50,080 --> 03:09:53,640
Speaker 13: we need more confidence in the American people in the

3396
03:09:53,680 --> 03:09:55,280
Speaker 13: election system.

3397
03:09:55,280 --> 03:09:55,800
Speaker 3: Absurd.

3398
03:09:56,200 --> 03:09:58,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, completely, bonks, sir.

3399
03:09:58,720 --> 03:10:02,280
Speaker 12: I fear that more ballots have been counted and results

3400
03:10:02,320 --> 03:10:03,000
Speaker 12: have changed.

3401
03:10:03,200 --> 03:10:04,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what elections are.

3402
03:10:05,160 --> 03:10:09,000
Speaker 3: You cannot place a vote in California after election day. No,

3403
03:10:09,120 --> 03:10:11,360
Speaker 3: but they do count mail in ballots that have been

3404
03:10:11,400 --> 03:10:14,840
Speaker 3: postmarked on or before election day, which is what he's referencing.

3405
03:10:14,879 --> 03:10:18,120
Speaker 3: But he's yeah, miss, he's purposely misconstruting it to make

3406
03:10:18,160 --> 03:10:21,200
Speaker 3: it sound way more, way more nefarious than what it

3407
03:10:21,200 --> 03:10:23,640
Speaker 3: actually is. If you've placed a mail in vote on

3408
03:10:23,760 --> 03:10:26,480
Speaker 3: or before election day in California, that vote will be counted.

3409
03:10:27,040 --> 03:10:27,400
Speaker 4: That is.

3410
03:10:27,560 --> 03:10:30,720
Speaker 3: That is how the elections in California work. Not this

3411
03:10:31,040 --> 03:10:35,320
Speaker 3: magically keeping keeping the election open for for weeks afterwards

3412
03:10:35,320 --> 03:10:37,800
Speaker 3: people can continue to vote. That's that's not that's not true.

3413
03:10:38,440 --> 03:10:41,520
Speaker 12: It's giving like a very specific sports reference where that

3414
03:10:41,600 --> 03:10:42,879
Speaker 12: the announcers like and the.

3415
03:10:42,840 --> 03:10:48,280
Speaker 1: Team with the most points won the game. That's literally

3416
03:10:48,360 --> 03:10:48,920
Speaker 1: what he's doing.

3417
03:10:48,959 --> 03:10:54,960
Speaker 12: He's like, as as the votes were counted, the results changed.

3418
03:10:54,560 --> 03:10:57,240
Speaker 3: They changed and someone won. Who is not what I

3419
03:10:57,320 --> 03:10:58,240
Speaker 3: wanted to happen.

3420
03:10:58,480 --> 03:11:00,400
Speaker 4: Uh, yeah, shock, horror.

3421
03:11:00,760 --> 03:11:02,680
Speaker 3: Can I prove there's fraud? No, but well I continue

3422
03:11:02,720 --> 03:11:05,560
Speaker 3: to say there's fraud, yes, Mike Johnson.

3423
03:11:06,160 --> 03:11:08,880
Speaker 4: It had been reported that they were trying to leverage

3424
03:11:09,280 --> 03:11:13,800
Speaker 4: the ice raids in Minnesota against getting electoral role information

3425
03:11:13,920 --> 03:11:16,720
Speaker 4: from Minnesota as well. Yes, so like this is this

3426
03:11:16,760 --> 03:11:21,960
Speaker 4: is not just his fascination with with Georgia. Like this

3427
03:11:22,040 --> 03:11:24,520
Speaker 4: is all deeply concerning as we go into like midterm year.

3428
03:11:24,640 --> 03:11:26,840
Speaker 4: But we will find out soon.

3429
03:11:26,920 --> 03:11:29,880
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, especially as Congress is the entity that is

3430
03:11:30,000 --> 03:11:31,760
Speaker 3: supposed to be there to help to ensure that states

3431
03:11:31,840 --> 03:11:33,640
Speaker 3: run the elections fairly and that we do not have

3432
03:11:33,680 --> 03:11:35,040
Speaker 3: a nationalized voting system.

3433
03:11:35,160 --> 03:11:35,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3434
03:11:35,600 --> 03:11:37,680
Speaker 3: And the fact that the Speaker of the House seems

3435
03:11:37,680 --> 03:11:42,920
Speaker 3: to be unaware siding siding with the executive branch with

3436
03:11:43,040 --> 03:11:46,080
Speaker 3: this idea of nationalizing elections or at least trying to

3437
03:11:46,120 --> 03:11:51,000
Speaker 3: like manufacture consent for Trump's Trump's claim there very very worrying.

3438
03:11:52,800 --> 03:11:56,080
Speaker 3: I now want to update a story we talked about

3439
03:11:56,680 --> 03:12:00,040
Speaker 3: almost a year ago, based on some new information that

3440
03:12:00,080 --> 03:12:04,920
Speaker 3: has come out. In January, a judge has unsealed a

3441
03:12:05,080 --> 03:12:10,120
Speaker 3: State Department memo from March twenty twenty five that confirms

3442
03:12:10,600 --> 03:12:14,680
Speaker 3: that Ramesa Osturk's visa was revoked and the government sought

3443
03:12:14,680 --> 03:12:18,560
Speaker 3: to deport her on the basis of oz Turk co

3444
03:12:18,680 --> 03:12:24,080
Speaker 3: authoring an op ed in the student newspaper at Tufts University.

3445
03:12:24,480 --> 03:12:28,120
Speaker 3: This memo admits that DHS could not provide any evidence

3446
03:12:28,160 --> 03:12:31,760
Speaker 3: that oz Turk ever engaged in any eighties Semitic activity,

3447
03:12:32,320 --> 03:12:36,440
Speaker 3: was involved in Students for Justice in Palestine, or has

3448
03:12:36,480 --> 03:12:40,680
Speaker 3: ever expressed support for terrorism as claimed by government officials.

3449
03:12:40,800 --> 03:12:45,520
Speaker 3: Last year, Churchill McLoughlin told CNN at the time of

3450
03:12:45,560 --> 03:12:49,240
Speaker 3: oz Turk's arrest that DHS and ICE investigations had found

3451
03:12:49,280 --> 03:12:53,240
Speaker 3: that oz Turk had quote engaged in activities in support

3452
03:12:53,280 --> 03:12:57,040
Speaker 3: of hamas, a foreign terrorist organization that relishes the killing

3453
03:12:57,040 --> 03:13:01,560
Speaker 3: of Americans unquote. On the contrary, this newly unsealed memo

3454
03:13:01,680 --> 03:13:04,880
Speaker 3: from the State Department reads, quote, while os Turk has

3455
03:13:05,040 --> 03:13:09,800
Speaker 3: been involved with actions protesting Tuft's relationship with Israel, DHS,

3456
03:13:09,840 --> 03:13:13,840
Speaker 3: ICE or Homeland Security investigations has not, however, provided any

3457
03:13:13,920 --> 03:13:16,600
Speaker 3: evidence showing that oz Turk has engaged in any anti

3458
03:13:16,600 --> 03:13:20,520
Speaker 3: Smithy activity or made any public statements indicating support for

3459
03:13:20,720 --> 03:13:24,520
Speaker 3: a terrorist organization or anti Semitism. Generally, unquote. The memo

3460
03:13:24,600 --> 03:13:27,880
Speaker 3: goes on to state that though a previous DHS report

3461
03:13:28,000 --> 03:13:31,400
Speaker 3: quote implies a connection between oz Turk and the now

3462
03:13:31,440 --> 03:13:35,080
Speaker 3: banned Tufts Students for Justice in Palestine, the report presents

3463
03:13:35,080 --> 03:13:38,160
Speaker 3: no evidence other than os Turk's membership in Graduate Students

3464
03:13:38,200 --> 03:13:42,119
Speaker 3: for Palestine, which supported proposals to Tufts which were also

3465
03:13:42,280 --> 03:13:45,920
Speaker 3: supported by Tufts Students for Justice in Palestine. Nor has

3466
03:13:46,000 --> 03:13:49,000
Speaker 3: DHS ICE or HSI shown any evidence that oz Turk

3467
03:13:49,080 --> 03:13:52,600
Speaker 3: was involved in any of the activities which resulted in

3468
03:13:52,640 --> 03:13:57,400
Speaker 3: Students for Justice in Palestine being suspended from Tufts unquote.

3469
03:13:57,440 --> 03:14:00,560
Speaker 3: The Bureau of Consular Affairs VISA office and ANAD no

3470
03:14:00,760 --> 03:14:05,119
Speaker 3: reporting specific to oz Turk on US government interagency databases.

3471
03:14:05,120 --> 03:14:08,680
Speaker 3: According to this memo, and interagency vetting partners do not

3472
03:14:08,760 --> 03:14:11,920
Speaker 3: provide any response to oz Turk's twenty twenty four VISA

3473
03:14:11,959 --> 03:14:17,160
Speaker 3: application quote indicating the existence of derogatory terrorism related information.

3474
03:14:18,360 --> 03:14:22,680
Speaker 3: I'll read the final quote here from this memo quote,

3475
03:14:22,800 --> 03:14:26,879
Speaker 3: DHS did not identify any alternative grounds for removability that

3476
03:14:26,920 --> 03:14:29,640
Speaker 3: would be applicable to oz Turk, including the ground for

3477
03:14:29,720 --> 03:14:33,200
Speaker 3: removability for aliens who have provided material support to a

3478
03:14:33,240 --> 03:14:36,959
Speaker 3: foreign terrorist organization. Or terrorist activity, and has not indicated

3479
03:14:36,959 --> 03:14:40,800
Speaker 3: whether it plans to consider termination of oz Turk's CIVIS registration,

3480
03:14:41,280 --> 03:14:45,039
Speaker 3: Although information provided by DHS, Homeland Security Investigations and ICE

3481
03:14:45,520 --> 03:14:49,920
Speaker 3: does not establish any potential ineligibility for oz Turk, you may,

3482
03:14:49,959 --> 03:14:52,960
Speaker 3: in your discretion and in accordance with Department policy in

3483
03:14:53,320 --> 03:14:58,959
Speaker 3: nine FAM four three point one point one DAH five

3484
03:14:59,080 --> 03:15:02,520
Speaker 3: b A, I prove revocation of her F one visa

3485
03:15:02,560 --> 03:15:06,440
Speaker 3: effect immediately based on the totality of the circumstances presented,

3486
03:15:06,760 --> 03:15:12,480
Speaker 3: indicating that revocation may be warranted unquote. The only evidence

3487
03:15:12,520 --> 03:15:15,000
Speaker 3: held against her in the memo is that she wrote

3488
03:15:15,000 --> 03:15:18,120
Speaker 3: an op ed. You still can revoke her visa if

3489
03:15:18,120 --> 03:15:18,680
Speaker 3: you want to.

3490
03:15:19,520 --> 03:15:24,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And that is pretty much the way student

3491
03:15:24,360 --> 03:15:26,880
Speaker 4: visas especially work, right, leg You did just here at

3492
03:15:27,120 --> 03:15:29,200
Speaker 4: the pleasure of US politics.

3493
03:15:29,280 --> 03:15:33,400
Speaker 3: Essentially, the fact that this memo openly says they do

3494
03:15:33,480 --> 03:15:36,520
Speaker 3: not have evidence to support the claims that she's involved

3495
03:15:36,520 --> 03:15:40,520
Speaker 3: in anti Smithy activity on campus supports Hamas in any way.

3496
03:15:41,240 --> 03:15:44,040
Speaker 3: The fact that you have the government saying that in

3497
03:15:44,080 --> 03:15:48,240
Speaker 3: these internal documents, while externally, people like Christian McLoughlin and

3498
03:15:48,320 --> 03:15:51,440
Speaker 3: Rubio say otherwise, it's such a naked display of the

3499
03:15:51,480 --> 03:15:54,640
Speaker 3: sort of rhetoric that these people are using. Secretary Rubio

3500
03:15:54,720 --> 03:15:57,520
Speaker 3: claimed at a press conference on March twenty seven, twenty

3501
03:15:57,520 --> 03:16:00,360
Speaker 3: twenty five. Quote, we revoked her visa. It's an F

3502
03:16:00,480 --> 03:16:03,199
Speaker 3: one visa. I believe we revoked it. And here's why.

3503
03:16:03,320 --> 03:16:05,080
Speaker 3: If you apply for a visa to enter the United

3504
03:16:05,120 --> 03:16:07,200
Speaker 3: States and be a student, and you tell us that

3505
03:16:07,240 --> 03:16:09,160
Speaker 3: the reason why you're coming to the United States is

3506
03:16:09,200 --> 03:16:11,520
Speaker 3: not just because you want to write op eds, but

3507
03:16:11,520 --> 03:16:14,400
Speaker 3: because you want to participate in movements that are involved

3508
03:16:14,480 --> 03:16:18,480
Speaker 3: in doing things like vandalizing universities, harassing students, taking over buildings,

3509
03:16:18,680 --> 03:16:21,600
Speaker 3: creating a ruckus. We're not going to give you a visa.

3510
03:16:21,720 --> 03:16:24,040
Speaker 3: If you lie to us and get a visa and

3511
03:16:24,040 --> 03:16:26,440
Speaker 3: then enter the United States and with that visa participate

3512
03:16:26,480 --> 03:16:28,560
Speaker 3: in that sort of activity, We're going to take away

3513
03:16:28,560 --> 03:16:29,920
Speaker 3: your visa. Unquote.

3514
03:16:30,280 --> 03:16:32,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, she didn't tell them that she was

3515
03:16:32,440 --> 03:16:34,720
Speaker 4: engaged to that kind of activity. She wasn't.

3516
03:16:35,360 --> 03:16:38,800
Speaker 3: That's just not what happened. Yeah, And DHS admits itself

3517
03:16:38,840 --> 03:16:42,040
Speaker 3: that she was not involved in the activity. The protest

3518
03:16:42,120 --> 03:16:45,280
Speaker 3: activity that resulted in students Justice in Palestine being banned

3519
03:16:45,320 --> 03:16:48,879
Speaker 3: from campus, which included vandalism, but DJA says that they

3520
03:16:48,959 --> 03:16:50,440
Speaker 3: do not have evidence that she was involved in that

3521
03:16:50,480 --> 03:16:54,160
Speaker 3: in any way, nor had any direct association with that group.

3522
03:16:55,040 --> 03:16:58,640
Speaker 3: In December, a federal judge allowed oz Turk to continue

3523
03:16:58,680 --> 03:17:02,240
Speaker 3: her research and teach at Tuft University on the basis

3524
03:17:02,280 --> 03:17:04,840
Speaker 3: that she is likely to succeed on the claim that

3525
03:17:04,920 --> 03:17:09,240
Speaker 3: her visa termination was quote arbitrary and capricious, contrary to

3526
03:17:09,320 --> 03:17:12,840
Speaker 3: law and in violation of the First Amendment. The court

3527
03:17:12,879 --> 03:17:15,840
Speaker 3: case related to her removal proceedings will still continue.

3528
03:17:16,520 --> 03:17:17,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, pretty bleak.

3529
03:17:17,600 --> 03:17:21,119
Speaker 1: That was That was Yeah wow, I.

3530
03:17:21,040 --> 03:17:23,120
Speaker 4: Guess talking of bleak. Should I finish up with a

3531
03:17:23,160 --> 03:17:25,240
Speaker 4: summary of the situation in Syria?

3532
03:17:25,320 --> 03:17:26,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, give us a Syria date.

3533
03:17:27,879 --> 03:17:31,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay. So the an e S has reached a

3534
03:17:31,280 --> 03:17:34,840
Speaker 4: settlement with the STG. The aa n e S the

3535
03:17:34,879 --> 03:17:38,520
Speaker 4: Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria aka ro Java,

3536
03:17:39,280 --> 03:17:42,240
Speaker 4: and the STG being the Syrian Transitional government that will

3537
03:17:42,280 --> 03:17:45,000
Speaker 4: result in the withdrawal of troops from the points of contact,

3538
03:17:45,400 --> 03:17:48,199
Speaker 4: as well as the withdrawal of SDF troops from Commichelo

3539
03:17:48,280 --> 03:17:51,879
Speaker 4: and Hesseka and the entry of the Syrian Ministry of

3540
03:17:51,920 --> 03:17:56,040
Speaker 4: the Interior. They're about ninety Ministry of Interior people going

3541
03:17:56,040 --> 03:17:59,800
Speaker 4: into Commishlo one hundred and hessecas. These are essentially like Syrian,

3542
03:18:00,320 --> 03:18:03,840
Speaker 4: so I guess right. Integration of the SDF will occur

3543
03:18:03,959 --> 03:18:07,320
Speaker 4: as brigades of the Syrian Army deployed Derik. If you're

3544
03:18:07,320 --> 03:18:09,800
Speaker 4: looking at a map, it's probably going to say al Malakaya,

3545
03:18:10,320 --> 03:18:15,000
Speaker 4: Delhi being the Kurdish name, Comichelo, Hesseka and Kabani. These

3546
03:18:15,280 --> 03:18:18,400
Speaker 4: forces will be largely Kurdish, but they will also include

3547
03:18:18,440 --> 03:18:22,600
Speaker 4: Assyrian and Arab elements, as the SDF always has. I

3548
03:18:22,600 --> 03:18:24,440
Speaker 4: imagine they will probably be Armenians as well. There then,

3549
03:18:24,440 --> 03:18:26,920
Speaker 4: nearly always are sending in the sdfs in the beginning

3550
03:18:26,959 --> 03:18:30,240
Speaker 4: there have been. The agreement also included the integration of

3551
03:18:30,280 --> 03:18:33,360
Speaker 4: the Shaish into the Syrian Ministry of the Interior, the

3552
03:18:33,400 --> 03:18:36,439
Speaker 4: government takeover of oil fields and borders, and a recognition

3553
03:18:36,520 --> 03:18:40,480
Speaker 4: of Kurdish education credential across the country. The A and

3554
03:18:40,560 --> 03:18:42,560
Speaker 4: E S will appoint a governor in Hesseka and the

3555
03:18:42,560 --> 03:18:46,640
Speaker 4: security chief will be appointed by Damascus. The SDF will

3556
03:18:46,640 --> 03:18:50,280
Speaker 4: also appoint a deputy Defense Minister in Damascus. The STG

3557
03:18:50,440 --> 03:18:55,200
Speaker 4: appointed Marwan Ala Ali Debac security He previously did this

3558
03:18:55,240 --> 03:18:59,160
Speaker 4: for HDS in Idlib Hyactoria al Sham Right, that's the

3559
03:18:59,600 --> 03:19:02,000
Speaker 4: group that formally listed as a Foreigntarist organization in the

3560
03:19:02,120 --> 03:19:05,160
Speaker 4: US that has gone on to take over Syria and

3561
03:19:05,200 --> 03:19:08,160
Speaker 4: become the government in Damascus, and he sort of oversaw

3562
03:19:08,560 --> 03:19:11,960
Speaker 4: their purge of rasal Din, which is like an al

3563
03:19:12,080 --> 03:19:16,720
Speaker 4: Qaeda associated group in Idlib. Shortly after the deal was

3564
03:19:16,760 --> 03:19:20,560
Speaker 4: signed to Syrian traditional government began accusing journalists who entered

3565
03:19:20,600 --> 03:19:23,600
Speaker 4: via Samalka, as I have done and Robert has done,

3566
03:19:23,959 --> 03:19:28,760
Speaker 4: of having entered Syria illegally, which great I guess. Turkey

3567
03:19:28,800 --> 03:19:31,880
Speaker 4: has continued to prevent aid coming to Kabani, where water

3568
03:19:31,920 --> 03:19:36,920
Speaker 4: and power remain cut off. Pretty bleak situation in Rosjaba.

3569
03:19:37,160 --> 03:19:39,360
Speaker 4: I'm glad that there is not more killing and not

3570
03:19:39,440 --> 03:19:43,280
Speaker 4: more dying, but also sad to see some of the

3571
03:19:43,320 --> 03:19:46,320
Speaker 4: things that so many people for and died for being lost,

3572
03:19:46,760 --> 03:19:49,760
Speaker 4: especially this idea of brotherhood of peoples, which I think

3573
03:19:49,920 --> 03:19:53,119
Speaker 4: was integral to the Asjaba revolution and the women's revolution,

3574
03:19:53,240 --> 03:19:56,160
Speaker 4: which it will be very hard to sustain in the

3575
03:19:56,160 --> 03:20:00,840
Speaker 4: context of the estate led by HTS. Pretty upsetting. I

3576
03:20:00,879 --> 03:20:03,520
Speaker 4: know that they can still use your support. Sorry, we'll

3577
03:20:03,520 --> 03:20:05,760
Speaker 4: put a fundraising link for heavusaw at the bottom of

3578
03:20:05,800 --> 03:20:09,920
Speaker 4: this Yeah. Good time to be alive. Yeah, great, great

3579
03:20:09,920 --> 03:20:13,600
Speaker 4: stuff happening in the world. Yeah, if you would like

3580
03:20:13,680 --> 03:20:17,720
Speaker 4: to email us, you can email us using a proton

3581
03:20:17,800 --> 03:20:20,640
Speaker 4: mail address. To email our proton mail address, which is

3582
03:20:20,720 --> 03:20:23,879
Speaker 4: cool Zone Tips at proton dot me.

3583
03:20:24,800 --> 03:20:27,160
Speaker 12: Yeah's not here, but she would say put a trans

3584
03:20:27,200 --> 03:20:29,800
Speaker 12: girl on your couch. Uh, so I'll say it for

3585
03:20:30,000 --> 03:20:31,240
Speaker 12: put a transgirl on your couch.

3586
03:20:32,120 --> 03:20:33,480
Speaker 3: We reported the news.

3587
03:20:33,720 --> 03:20:36,760
Speaker 4: See the news. We reported the news.

3588
03:20:42,200 --> 03:20:45,360
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3589
03:20:45,400 --> 03:20:47,320
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3590
03:20:48,080 --> 03:20:50,680
Speaker 17: It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3591
03:20:50,720 --> 03:20:53,760
Speaker 17: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3592
03:20:53,879 --> 03:20:57,440
Speaker 17: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3593
03:20:57,520 --> 03:21:01,280
Speaker 17: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcas can now

3594
03:21:01,320 --> 03:21:03,520
Speaker 17: find sources where it could happen here listed directly in

3595
03:21:03,600 --> 03:21:04,640
Speaker 17: episode descriptions.

3596
03:21:04,959 --> 03:21:05,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.