Speaker 1: This crowd rises suits being what Carl slamming it, Oh
Speaker 1: Carle left.
Speaker 2: Wing free ball perfect, Darlin pop then Hellift block the
Speaker 2: shot at the rim pow with the left hand and
Speaker 2: of fowl. Welcome to the Chasetown Podcast, part of the
Speaker 2: Caves Media family. I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chase
Speaker 2: Doown is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner at
Speaker 2: the Calves. Watch over three hundred and fifty channels of
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Speaker 2: guys live the eve of the NBA Finals between the
Speaker 2: Indiana Pacers and the Oklahoma City Thunder. Joining me today
Speaker 2: to discuss the playoffs, discuss Calves changes and all that
Speaker 2: good stuff is my co host, Carter Rodriguez.
Speaker 1: Carter, Hey, nobody, I'm doing good man. It's been quite
Speaker 1: the quite the marathon for your boy.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: Been on the road two straight weeks. But I'm home,
Speaker 1: uh and trying to recover from some nasty jet lag.
Speaker 1: But the Netherlands was fun.
Speaker 2: Can I just say for those on the YouTube. I
Speaker 2: had not seen Carter's camera until like he came live
Speaker 2: on the mic, and that mustache was a cold open
Speaker 2: for me. How about that. I don't think I've seen
Speaker 2: this look from you before.
Speaker 1: I was curious. So I was having a kind of
Speaker 1: a tiring, you know, a rough day because I'm so tired,
Speaker 1: you know, I had a rough morning. You know, all
Speaker 1: sorts of things were going wrong. I was like, you
Speaker 1: know what, I'm gonna do something a little silly, see
Speaker 1: if I can change the energy of my day. And
Speaker 1: full disclosure, the mustache wasn't supposed to make it to
Speaker 1: the podcast. I was gonna because Kylie hates it whenever
Speaker 1: I have one, and I was gonna shave it before
Speaker 1: she even got home. But then I made a bunch
Speaker 1: of pivots to my day and the mustache remains. It'll
Speaker 1: be gone by tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Look, the off season is a time for pivots. You're
Speaker 2: going to see teams change up the rotation. You're going
Speaker 2: to see trades, are going to see firings the New
Speaker 2: York Knicks, uh, you know, fire Tom Thibodeau, and we
Speaker 2: also have some changes on the caves side as well.
Speaker 2: There was an announcement today. I don't know if it's
Speaker 2: official yet, but Jordan Ought there is reporting that he
Speaker 2: has been hired by the Phoenix Suns to be their
Speaker 2: next head coach. Congratulations to him. You know, it seems
Speaker 2: like the Cavs assistant coaches are in demand. That's a
Speaker 2: great sign. I think if you look at the last
Speaker 2: few years the Cavs front office, you know, a lums
Speaker 2: have been running quite a few teams around the NBA.
Speaker 2: He has been running some successful teams around the NBA
Speaker 2: and now you're seeing that a little bit on the
Speaker 2: coaching staff. You'll be interesting to see with that vacancy
Speaker 2: in New York if Johnny Bryant's name ends up getting
Speaker 2: into that mix as well.
Speaker 1: It's a classic good news bad news thing. Like good
Speaker 1: news you're an organization that's respected by its peers around
Speaker 1: the league. Bad news brain drain, you know, and you
Speaker 1: got to you gotta find a way to replicate your culture.
Speaker 1: And that is the story of culture, right, is that
Speaker 1: it's not tied to one individual. Is that, you know,
Speaker 1: it is the tide that raises all boats, that allows
Speaker 1: you to plug in different folks with different skills and
Speaker 1: still you know, be a representation of what you once were.
Speaker 1: But like, it doesn't not angst me out that the
Speaker 1: Cavs two top assistants might be on another team, you know,
Speaker 1: going to the next season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I think we've said the same
Speaker 2: thing when guys have been poached from the G League team, right, Like,
Speaker 2: when you do a good job developing talent, when you
Speaker 2: bring in, you know, talent that's worthy of other teams
Speaker 2: taking a look at them, these kinds of things are
Speaker 2: going to happen. I think, you know, angst is a
Speaker 2: good word to use. I'm also just kind of intrigued
Speaker 2: because we never really know how much responsibility anybody has
Speaker 2: on a coaching staff. But what we do know is
Speaker 2: that Kenny Atkinson has been big when he talked in
Speaker 2: the media. He's been big on collaboration, whether it's with
Speaker 2: his assistant coaches, whether it's with the players. And it's
Speaker 2: going to be interesting to see what type of a
Speaker 2: new voice the Cavs bring in. What you know, what
Speaker 2: what's their track record, what types of locker rooms have
Speaker 2: they been involved in. I think, particularly in this situation
Speaker 2: where I don't expect massive change ups to the core
Speaker 2: and the identity of what this roster is. I think
Speaker 2: a fresh set of eyes and a new perspective might
Speaker 2: be interesting. Now, interesting doesn't guarantee it's going to be
Speaker 2: a positive change. Interesting, like you're you're still building off
Speaker 2: the foundation that you laid next year. So it's not
Speaker 2: something that's dramatically concerning. We're not changing up, you know,
Speaker 2: the head coach. We have our coach of the year.
Speaker 2: But I do think you know, what types of new
Speaker 2: ways of looking at things and what other perspectives are
Speaker 2: being brought into the locker room is definitely going to
Speaker 2: be one of those things that we talk about when
Speaker 2: these vacancy this vacancy is filled.
Speaker 1: And also like you know, who is the guy you know,
Speaker 1: even if it's not a new face or if it's
Speaker 1: an elevation you know, uh with with you know, of
Speaker 1: the current staff. It's always interesting when you have one
Speaker 1: of those like in house promotions where a guy goes
Speaker 1: from the back bench to the front bench and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden has that is empowered to have that voice,
Speaker 1: you know, just like players, coaches have to play their roles,
Speaker 1: you know, like and even in a you know, an
Speaker 1: open minded environment that Kenny seems to have fostered where
Speaker 1: seems like ideas can come from anywhere. But like at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, like you know, you can't
Speaker 1: have you know, fifteen coaches opening on every rotation or
Speaker 1: every schematic decision, like you do need like a chain
Speaker 1: o command at the end of the day. So you
Speaker 1: you just you know, you lean on your culture to
Speaker 1: maintain the quality bar, and you also have to trust
Speaker 1: in your ability to identify coaching talent. Like, yeah, when
Speaker 1: you lose a guy like ot who's clearly respected around
Speaker 1: the league, no greater endorsement of a coach than one
Speaker 1: of a bunch of players are sharing like hey, good luck,
Speaker 1: well wishes UH to to to an assistant clearly a
Speaker 1: good guy that uh that had the faith of the team.
Speaker 1: So here's hoping that whoever they do replace him with
Speaker 1: and uh is uh is an additive and you know,
Speaker 1: brings that fresh perspective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll be very interesting to see what direction they go.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: That's honestly, that's all I really feel qualified to even
Speaker 2: say on this because we're not in that locker room,
Speaker 2: we're not at practices, we're not you know, witnessing what
Speaker 2: you know, the delegation of tasks are right, So what
Speaker 2: direction they go with the vacancy is going to be
Speaker 2: really interesting and well we'll see what comes of that.
Speaker 2: But as I mentioned before, we are on the eve
Speaker 2: of Game one of the NBA Finals, excited to see
Speaker 2: this matchup between Pacers and Thunder. I've seen I've seen
Speaker 2: a healthy mix from the media. Some are being like,
Speaker 2: you know what, let's just talk about basketball. These teams
Speaker 2: are awesome, Let's stop all this ratings nonsense. And then
Speaker 2: I've also seen a lot of national media members that
Speaker 2: are just flat out lazy, and it feels like they
Speaker 2: are justifying their laziness by saying, well, you know, like
Speaker 2: I don't know any of the names on these teams,
Speaker 2: but these players, but they came out of nowhere. No,
Speaker 2: if you're paying attention, there's some really damn good names.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of really good players, and I'm excited
Speaker 2: to see what the series is. I personally believe that,
Speaker 2: you know, the Oklahoma City Thunder are going to win
Speaker 2: this pretty comfortably. I think that they are the best
Speaker 2: team this season. I think they are cut above. But
Speaker 2: we've seen the Indiana Pacers, you know, surprise teams. They
Speaker 2: surprised the hell out of us, and their ability to
Speaker 2: steal games and to maintain their identity against a historically
Speaker 2: good defense is going to be fascinating to watch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited for the one because I think like
Speaker 1: on the talent side of the Ledger, the Okay See,
Speaker 1: he just has an overwhelming advantage. But stylistically, there are
Speaker 1: some things here for the Pacers. You know, so much
Speaker 1: of what fuels that Okay See engine is turnovers is
Speaker 1: the overwhelming ball pressure that they put on you. The
Speaker 1: pick six is the you know, the kind of the machine.
Speaker 1: You know, the snowball effect that they can have on you,
Speaker 1: and you know it never turns the ball over. The
Speaker 1: Indiana Pacers, you know, who plays really really good pressure
Speaker 1: defense that can get okay See out of their rhythm
Speaker 1: on night, especially on nice shade, doesn't have it going
Speaker 1: the Indiana Pacers. So I feel like it's one of
Speaker 1: those things where the matchup is really you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure the Pacers could ask for better answers to
Speaker 1: the things that Okay See is good at. But the
Speaker 1: talent I just don't think is there for them to
Speaker 1: make this a long series. But I don't know, maybe
Speaker 1: there are Okay see as a way of making you
Speaker 1: on the on the on. When they're at their best,
Speaker 1: you know, they feel like one of these generationally great teams,
Speaker 1: but they are prone to some stinkers in some weird games.
Speaker 1: So I don't I don't know. I don't know quite
Speaker 1: what to make of it, but I do think I
Speaker 1: do think this is the Thunder series to lose. And frankly,
Speaker 1: if if you're the rest of the league, that's probably
Speaker 1: a good thing because if they lose, they'll probably just
Speaker 1: go trade for like Yannis or something, or Yannis and
Speaker 1: Katie or something.
Speaker 2: That's probably a good point. It's it's interesting. You're right,
Speaker 2: like they are prone to some of those games, and
Speaker 2: you know, from a Cavs perspective, that's almost a little discouraging, right,
Speaker 2: because this is probably the worst that the Thunder are
Speaker 2: going to be, at least from a talent standpoint. As
Speaker 2: they gain this experience from this finals run, I think
Speaker 2: that they're going to be a better team. Now, health
Speaker 2: might not align with that. There's a variety of factors.
Speaker 2: You have to get lucky to win a championship, but
Speaker 2: they're going to be learning from this experience, and you know,
Speaker 2: one of the things I think about with the Pacers.
Speaker 2: You guys might not agree with me in terms of
Speaker 2: how that series would go if we were healthy. I
Speaker 2: still believe with the current state of where we were at,
Speaker 2: we could have won that series with the injuries. But
Speaker 2: the other thing to kind of remember with that is
Speaker 2: you learn from these types of experiences and you get better.
Speaker 2: The Cavs, I firmly believe they would have won in
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen if they were healthy. That Golden State Warriors
Speaker 2: team the next year, they didn't make any dramatic changes
Speaker 2: to their roster, but all of those guys took a
Speaker 2: step forward because of the experience that they had. And
Speaker 2: once again, maybe me not in a popular opinion, but
Speaker 2: I think if both teams were fully healthy both of
Speaker 2: those years, they flip with years they won the titles.
Speaker 2: I think the Cavs win in fifteen and the Warriors
Speaker 2: would have won in sixteen. It's what makes that title
Speaker 2: so much fun, and you have to play who's ahead
Speaker 2: of you. But just because I believe that about how
Speaker 2: this Caz Pacers matchup would have gone this year, doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that the Indiana Pacers can't take a step forward.
Speaker 2: They have a lot of young talent. That's a team
Speaker 2: that's well coached, well built, they have depth. Sure there's
Speaker 2: some questions about free agency with Miles Turner and other
Speaker 2: things there, but that doesn't mean that just because I
Speaker 2: feel that way about this year doesn't mean that they
Speaker 2: can't take a step forward next year. And from a
Speaker 2: Calves standpoint, you got to constantly be workshopping what you
Speaker 2: can learn from this playoffs and how you can take
Speaker 2: those steps forward, whether it be from a rotation standpoint,
Speaker 2: whether it be in terms of how you approach the game.
Speaker 2: And I think they should be watching these finals. I'm
Speaker 2: sure they're watching these finals and these playoffs with a
Speaker 2: keen eye seeing what you can steal from Indy, what
Speaker 2: you can steal from Okay, see what you can steal
Speaker 2: from Minnesota, from New York. Every single data point is
Speaker 2: valuable when it comes to the playoffs.
Speaker 1: Does it feel like this series more than last year
Speaker 1: was a series where you can kind of watch it
Speaker 1: as the Calves and be like they should steal some stuff.
Speaker 2: Like I feel like I nothing about the Boston Celtics
Speaker 2: was really replicable. When it comes to the Indiana Pacers,
Speaker 2: that's a team that I think you watch them, and
Speaker 2: they played better than their talent on both ends of
Speaker 2: the floor because of how they approached.
Speaker 1: The other There's a lot of things I am for.
Speaker 2: Okay, see, I completely agree with that, and frankly, like
Speaker 2: I don't have any like ill will against the Indiana Pacers.
Speaker 2: I respect the hell out of that team. They They
Speaker 2: changed my mind throughout the season. You know where I
Speaker 2: was at the start of the year, shadow Kaitlin Cooper's
Speaker 2: substack for you know, opening my eyes throughout the season.
Speaker 2: But they progressively got better too, as Halliburn, you know,
Speaker 2: regained his form, they improved as a team. I think
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things that you can steal from them.
Speaker 2: And you speaking of stealing from them, did you happen
Speaker 2: to see Chris Finch's I know you were traveling, so
Speaker 2: maybe this missed you. Did you see Chris Finch's comments
Speaker 2: after the Western Conference finals wrapped up?
Speaker 1: Nope.
Speaker 2: So I find this really interesting because you look at
Speaker 2: the playoffs right now, the best offense in the playoffs
Speaker 2: has been the Indiana Pacers. I know the Calves technically
Speaker 2: have a better RO rating, but that was really skewed
Speaker 2: by that Miami series. But the Pacers have had basically
Speaker 2: a one eighteen offensive rating, the Thunder one fifteen point nine.
Speaker 2: You look at how the Wolves played against the Oklahoma
Speaker 2: City Thunder actually had a worse offensive rating than the
Speaker 2: Calves had against the Indiana Pacers, and they had a
Speaker 2: worse defensive rating than the Calves had against the Indiana Pacers.
Speaker 2: And this is a Wolves lineup that has, you know,
Speaker 2: Mike Conley, strong defender at the point guard position, Anthony Edwards,
Speaker 2: good length of the shooting guard positions, strong defender, Jada
Speaker 2: McDaniels elite wing defender, exactly what you want from that position.
Speaker 2: Julius Randall is playing some of the best defense of
Speaker 2: his career, Rudy Gobert Defensive Player of the Year candidate,
Speaker 2: nas Reed coming in off the bench, Nikuila on Alexander Walker.
Speaker 2: They have basically, like when we talk about the archetypes
Speaker 2: that we want defensively and we want to bring into
Speaker 2: the Calves, they have those guys, and they had a
Speaker 2: worse defensive performance against the Oklahoma City Thunder, who are
Speaker 2: a worse offense than the Indiana Pacers. And I just
Speaker 2: will found it really interesting because I was wondering, what
Speaker 2: does Chris Finch focus on and here is his quote
Speaker 2: in the game today. With all that switching, you see,
Speaker 2: you need two things. You need passing and you need
Speaker 2: ball handling. That's what you need. Everybody wants shooting, but
Speaker 2: I think it's the other things that unlock shooting. And
Speaker 2: I thought that was so fascinating for a defense first team.
Speaker 2: His takeaway from that series is, we need more ball handling,
Speaker 2: we need more playmaking, We need more creation on the
Speaker 2: offense than as a floor because as we know, when
Speaker 2: your offense isn't clicking, that is going to have a
Speaker 2: negative effect on your defense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, I think, especially against that Okay See team,
Speaker 1: it's not surprising that I guess I would say that,
Speaker 1: like you might index on a bit, you know, multiple
Speaker 1: points of attack, just because of how devastating some of
Speaker 1: those bulldogs on Okay See can be, you know, having
Speaker 1: guys and like, that's a big way I felt about,
Speaker 1: you know, this this playoff run for the Cavs is
Speaker 1: you know, having you know, we talked about it even
Speaker 1: in the Miami series when they were playing Ocoro and
Speaker 1: Wade out at the same time, having guys who aren't
Speaker 1: going to make quick, assertive decisions with the ball and
Speaker 1: that aren't a threat with the ball. If the if
Speaker 1: the jumper isn't falling, you know, is is just kind
Speaker 1: of death for your offense. And you know, I do think,
Speaker 1: like I do think in general, when you taught, when
Speaker 1: you listen to coaches like Chris Finch and you listen
Speaker 1: to you know, and you listen to fans, I feel
Speaker 1: like the conversation is flying in the opposite direction. Fans
Speaker 1: want to figure out how to get stops. Coaches are
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to score. And like that's
Speaker 1: why I think I have continued to kind of lean
Speaker 1: in on the offensive identity of the team just because
Speaker 1: it's like, like I felt like they got enough stops
Speaker 1: to win. Really in the last two three years, it's
Speaker 1: just been that consistent rhythm offensively that like they haven't
Speaker 1: been able to find they have They've always reverted to
Speaker 1: the one or two ball handlers that are initiating everything.
Speaker 1: And to Chris Finch's point, like that's just easier to
Speaker 1: game plan against.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, obviously the injuries had some impact
Speaker 2: on that. You had Darius missing games flat out and
Speaker 2: then you know, playing through that that toe injury. Donovan Mitchell.
Speaker 2: You could tell his mobil ability was impacted after that
Speaker 2: cast rain in Game two, and it just felt like
Speaker 2: we weren't able to generate that playmaking right like Indy
Speaker 2: wasn't sending help. They were daring Donovan to to kind
Speaker 2: of beat them one on one to you know, not
Speaker 2: to take away those easy kickout passes that the Cavs
Speaker 2: offense really feats off of. And then ty Jerome just
Speaker 2: wasn't able to turn the corner. And it's kind of
Speaker 2: ironic because part.
Speaker 1: Of that metaphorical or literal corner a little bit.
Speaker 2: Both the irony is when you look at that series
Speaker 2: and the way that the injuries played out and the
Speaker 2: limitations on both Mitchell and Garland physically that trade deadline move.
Speaker 2: We probably could have benefited from Karros laverd in that series,
Speaker 2: like his playmaking. Obviously we've seen up and downs of
Speaker 2: the play in the playoffs for Karris Lavert, but in
Speaker 2: terms of skills that they really needed that additional ball handler.
Speaker 2: And I find it fascinating because if you look at
Speaker 2: the last seven years, and this counts both finalists for
Speaker 2: this year, there is no consistent way any of these
Speaker 2: teams have been built you know, for all the conversations
Speaker 2: about what you need to learn from a team building standpoint,
Speaker 2: and you know what types of players you need to
Speaker 2: win with. We're going to see seven straight years where
Speaker 2: teams built very different ways one NBA championships. But the
Speaker 2: one kind of consistent thing I think you see with
Speaker 2: all of these teams is they are able to generate offense.
Speaker 2: They are able to get playmaking from multiple positions. Boston
Speaker 2: no traditional point guard. I think that's why you see
Speaker 2: some of the volatility with them on the offensive end
Speaker 2: of the court, but they had five guys in that
Speaker 2: lineup that were able to generate offense. Indy we saw
Speaker 2: tons of that. Oka See has that right, like Shay's
Speaker 2: able to do it obviously, Alex Caruso coming in off
Speaker 2: the bench, Jalen Williams is a good playmaker, Hernstein's a
Speaker 2: good playmaker. Wiggins and Wallace are able to do that
Speaker 2: at a solid level.
Speaker 1: And well, Okay, to see I think is maybe not
Speaker 1: exactly a wonder you know. I'm not that you're making
Speaker 1: the case that they're a one to one, but like
Speaker 1: I do think they're a team where their defense is
Speaker 1: so bananas and they have a lead star. That's so good,
Speaker 1: But they think almost feel like a little bit more
Speaker 1: of a throwback. But you're right, they sure attack from
Speaker 1: a lot of different spots, right.
Speaker 2: And the interesting thing is, even though these teams are
Speaker 2: you know, built differently, how they get that playmaking is
Speaker 2: also different. Right, Like the Warriors staff Draymond Andrea was
Speaker 2: still playing for them, Jordan Poole was able to provide
Speaker 2: some playmaking the Bucks Giannis Drew and and Dante DiVincenzo
Speaker 2: in that year, Chris Middleton actually had a pretty high
Speaker 2: assist rate and was able to generate some offense for them.
Speaker 2: Denver Joki, Murray Brown, Aaron Gordon was able to run
Speaker 2: some offense. Reggie Jackson was able to run some offense. Right,
Speaker 2: how many guys did you you feel confident in that
Speaker 2: the Cavs could go to from a playmaking standpoint like?
Speaker 2: That was my big takeaway from you know, the Boston
Speaker 2: series and it remains mine now. Obviously we've talked about
Speaker 2: how mobiley needed to be used more in those spots,
Speaker 2: but when the guards are limited, like you just didn't
Speaker 2: have anybody else you could really rely on in that spot,
Speaker 2: Max Struce, you you can you can you know, make
Speaker 2: the argument that he's kind of in that case in Wallace,
Speaker 2: Aaron Wiggins, you know, like that can provide that secondary playmaking.
Speaker 2: But whether it is hey, we need to use our
Speaker 2: guys differently because we believe that they can provide that playmaking,
Speaker 2: or hey, we need to bring in someone that's going
Speaker 2: to be able to supplement that a little bit and
Speaker 2: provide that from the front court, it just felt like
Speaker 2: the initiation was too backcourt heavy in that series.
Speaker 1: Sure, and you're right, and we've talked about a lot,
Speaker 1: like I'll gripe about the way Mobiley was used in
Speaker 1: the way he used himself in that series for you know,
Speaker 1: The Seeable Future. But I will say this stuff does
Speaker 1: roll down hill, and like if Shay and Jalen have
Speaker 1: really bad games or are hurt, then I think, And
Speaker 1: we're seeing Alex Caruso initiating more, and we're seeing Aaron
Speaker 1: Wiggins have to initiate more, and we're seeing Chet Holmgren
Speaker 1: try to run inverted pick and rolls, Like, yeah, they'll they'll,
Speaker 1: they'll get decent looks every now and again, but we
Speaker 1: will go, oh man, they probably haveing to rely on
Speaker 1: those guys too much. So like there is a degree
Speaker 1: where like, if Darius and Donmo are playing well, are
Speaker 1: we having discussions about the team needing more playmaking outside
Speaker 1: of mobiley? I don't think. Hold on, let me get
Speaker 1: through this. I think Struce as the fourth or fifth
Speaker 1: best playmaker on the floor is a great outcome. I
Speaker 1: think DeAndre Hunter as the fourth best playmaker on the
Speaker 1: floor is a great outcome. I just don't think that
Speaker 1: the Cavs played a style that allowed those guys to
Speaker 1: look that way. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, let's bring it to a point that I think
Speaker 2: we can both agree with. If Chris Finch with much
Speaker 2: better defensive personnel that we have and you know, a
Speaker 2: worse defensive outcome than we had against the Pacers, if
Speaker 2: his takeaway is we need more ball handling, we need
Speaker 2: more playmaking, then the takeaway from this season shouldn't be Hey,
Speaker 2: let's swap Darius Garland for Jada McDaniels. Let's swap Darius
Speaker 2: Garland for Jalen Suggs, who is fifth on the magic
Speaker 2: in a SIS percentage, Like, if you're going that direction, honestly,
Speaker 2: you should just start a coral like because he neither
Speaker 2: player is going to give you any ball handling or
Speaker 2: playmaking or be able to run an offense. Coral is
Speaker 2: at least taller, he's a better shooter, and he's going
Speaker 2: to give you the same defense. If you're going to
Speaker 2: punt that other guard position, just go with a Coral.
Speaker 2: But you know, like, but it's disrespectful. I know it's
Speaker 2: been disrespected. True, No, it absolutely is true. It's the
Speaker 2: macro is true. But Jalen Suggs has more juice. The
Speaker 2: macro is all I need to get the joke off.
Speaker 2: But if that's your takeaway, what the Caves need to write.
Speaker 1: The takeaway that the Calves should get less ball handling
Speaker 1: and more on ball defense is not the solve I
Speaker 1: would pick. If you want to, if you want to
Speaker 1: say that the Calves could use more front court initiation,
Speaker 1: uh and things like that. You know, and you're interested
Speaker 1: in that kind of thing. Okay, I could see it,
Speaker 1: but you know, that's not really what Jaden McDaniels is.
Speaker 1: It's not really what Jalen Suggs is in the front.
Speaker 1: You know the ways that they would initiate, and you
Speaker 1: know there are things those guys do, even on offense,
Speaker 1: that the Calves don't exactly do. But I just don't
Speaker 1: know if you want to build the plane out of it.
Speaker 2: No, No, you're I'm not going into this season trying
Speaker 2: to find less help, right. You always want to get
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Speaker 2: work harder, zoom Ai Companion can help you do the rest,
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Speaker 2: because from a team building standpoint, like we talked about
Speaker 2: with the Aprons, there's not a lot of options that
Speaker 2: in terms of major shakeups for the cast, right, Like
Speaker 2: if you're looking at Darius trades, the fact that guys
Speaker 2: like a Jalen Sugs or Drew Holiday are you know,
Speaker 2: in that range goes to show you, like a one
Speaker 2: for one swap, you're downgrading. Not only from a town standpoint,
Speaker 2: you're just getting worse as a team. But if we
Speaker 2: kind of concede that, hey, we're not able to make
Speaker 2: those kind of dramatic change ups, the changes have to
Speaker 2: come with how they approach the game on both offense
Speaker 2: and defense if you're going to make changes, and it
Speaker 2: also has to come in terms of how you deplay
Speaker 2: guys from a rotation standpoint. And you know, as much
Speaker 2: as people talk about the small backcourt, that's not a
Speaker 2: Darius Garland thing. That's a Donovan Mitchell thing because he's
Speaker 2: undersized for his position, and while we like his ability
Speaker 2: and we think he's grown as a playmaker, even by
Speaker 2: his own emission, he prefers playing with a point guard.
Speaker 2: He's not a point guard. He's not someone that you're
Speaker 2: going to ask to run your offense at all times.
Speaker 2: So in that, you know, with that understanding, you're always
Speaker 2: going to have a bit of a small backcourt unless
Speaker 2: you're building around, you know, a Lebron James or Nikola
Speaker 2: Jokic where he can play in that Jamal Murray role,
Speaker 2: which I think you wouldn't do a much better job
Speaker 2: of because he's better than Jamal Murray. But you know
Speaker 2: what I find interesting is all right, so if we
Speaker 2: understand that, and we also understand that that starting lineup
Speaker 2: had a one oh seven defensive rating against the Pacers,
Speaker 2: so defense of that lineup was not the issue. It's
Speaker 2: going to come down to how they use the rotation.
Speaker 2: Do they make changes in terms of, you know, who's
Speaker 2: starting at the three, who's the the sixth, seventh, eighth man.
Speaker 2: Those kinds of decisions I think are going to be
Speaker 2: the most important thing when it comes to how the
Speaker 2: Calves approach this offseason.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just do think like this is a I
Speaker 1: hope that when you talk about the lessons that the
Speaker 1: team chooses to take away from this season, I hope
Speaker 1: that it's not just an injury conversation within that doubting staff.
Speaker 1: I'll be surprised if it is.
Speaker 2: Well, I think we can almost assume that it's not,
Speaker 2: because when you listen to those exit interviews, that wasn't
Speaker 2: what the takeaway was, right Like, it's, hey, we got
Speaker 2: to we gotta get mentally tougher, we got to get
Speaker 2: the experience, we got to get better.
Speaker 1: So you could interpret mentally tougher as just do what
Speaker 1: our plan was, but better, you know, you could interpret
Speaker 1: it that way. I do think the fact that, you know,
Speaker 1: Kenny felt like they had enough talent wise to win
Speaker 1: that series, and I believe he said as much, like,
Speaker 1: you know, we didn't lose that series because of the injuries.
Speaker 1: So I think is what he said. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I think that tells me that there is some you know, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, some disappointment with the Encourt product. But it
Speaker 1: is always going to be a question in terms of
Speaker 1: choosing what lessons to learn. Was this an execution problem?
Speaker 1: Was this a talent problem? Or was this a schematic problem?
Speaker 1: And you know, I think you you know, in the unfortunately,
Speaker 1: answer is always going to be yes. It was all
Speaker 1: three of those things, Like, you know, more talent could
Speaker 1: probably paper over or you know, healthier talent could have
Speaker 1: papered over schematic and execution problems. Better execution would solve
Speaker 1: for talent, and schematics, better schematics would solve for execution.
Speaker 1: And so it's like this, you know, this unholy triumvirate
Speaker 1: of of of you know, basketball that you're never going
Speaker 1: to have like a cut and dry thing, you know,
Speaker 1: very you know, the Knicks series was kind of this
Speaker 1: like very special exception where all you had to do
Speaker 1: was watch and go shooting please, and you kind of
Speaker 1: know that's like the main thing, and you're not going
Speaker 1: to get better data till you have that. Like in
Speaker 1: this it's a much more gray area. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if we can assume that Kenny was like my
Speaker 1: scheme let us down. Now, maybe I'm just showing what
Speaker 1: my assumption is. And you know, the interesting thing, like
Speaker 1: I think why you're seeing the Knicks basically have an
Speaker 1: existential crisis here is because they were in a position.
Speaker 2: Last year in the playoffs where they thought we lost
Speaker 2: because of injuries. We would have beat the Pacers if
Speaker 2: we were healthy. They go into this offseason and they
Speaker 2: make dramatic changes. They think that they improve their roster.
Speaker 2: So now you have an improved roster from what you
Speaker 2: thought was going to beat the Pacers the year before,
Speaker 2: you bringing in that more talent. You're healthy in the
Speaker 2: playoffs against the Pacers, and you look completely outclassed and outmatch,
Speaker 2: which goes back to what I was saying before, which
Speaker 2: is even you know, if we disagree on what you
Speaker 2: think this year's series would have been if you're healthy,
Speaker 2: I'm saying we as in myself and the listener, if
Speaker 2: even if that's the case, I think we can both
Speaker 2: agree that it doesn't necessarily mean anything moving forward. Every
Speaker 2: year is its own kind of ecosystem. Every team is different.
Speaker 2: You can't make assumptions on who's going to be better,
Speaker 2: who's going to be worse, And of course, like after
Speaker 2: the last couple of years, I'm going to have concerns.
Speaker 2: I'm going to have concerns on whether or not both
Speaker 2: guards are going to be able to make it to
Speaker 2: the playoffs healthy, if they're able to make it through
Speaker 2: the playoffs healthy. But you know, those are answers that
Speaker 2: we can't really have right now, so you focus on
Speaker 2: everything else and God, go ahead, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: that was an end I was just going to ramble on. Anyways.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's where I just kind of get back
Speaker 1: to the scheme stuff on both sides of the floor.
Speaker 1: And that's why I kind of set up the the
Speaker 1: you know, the ball and the tee without taking a
Speaker 1: cut at it. You know, I kind of said, should
Speaker 1: they wonder about scheme? And like, I guess my final
Speaker 1: takeaway that I have right now is that they should.
Speaker 1: I do think they should really be evaluating how they
Speaker 1: attacked that series against Indy, what they asked their guys
Speaker 1: to do over the course of the season, and comparing
Speaker 1: it against what they did against Indy. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's funny because on either end of the ball, I
Speaker 1: kind of feel the opposite way I feel on offense.
Speaker 1: And and you know people heard me say this on
Speaker 1: our last weeks at pod and the postgame pod after
Speaker 1: Game five, that I thought the Cavs scheme all year
Speaker 1: was fine and then they just stopped doing it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, they stopped running, you know, letting mobilely initiate offense.
Speaker 1: They stopped doing all the varied stuff that made them
Speaker 1: so interesting and in challenging the guard. You know, they
Speaker 1: stopped playing with pace blah blah blah blah blah. Like
Speaker 1: I would, I would say that, knowing what I know,
Speaker 1: which is very little, a very small window into what
Speaker 1: was going on in that locker room, that it felt
Speaker 1: like their execution failed them more than their scheme failed them,
Speaker 1: like they stopped doing the things the coaches had them
Speaker 1: doing all year on offense. On defense, I actually am
Speaker 1: more inclined to blame the scheme. I think the switching,
Speaker 1: the soft switching, which if you are you know, someone
Speaker 1: who listens to this podcast regularly, you know, me and
Speaker 1: you had our little back and forths about this over
Speaker 1: the year, where you wanted more resistance, you wanted more
Speaker 1: physicality at the point of attack, and I was on
Speaker 1: team the shell's good enough, just don't screw up. And
Speaker 1: I think we saw the limits of my point of
Speaker 1: view on that in that series where the shell started
Speaker 1: to break. You know, the shell was more fragile against
Speaker 1: more talented teams, and you know, and then it was
Speaker 1: gimmick town from there. You know, it was the three
Speaker 1: too that worked for you know, a quarter or two
Speaker 1: and then was solved. And I do think like there
Speaker 1: should be some hard looks on that end of the
Speaker 1: floor about how you know, not to be reductive, but
Speaker 1: it does. I do wonder if the eighty if the
Speaker 1: if the soft switching strategy moving its way into the
Speaker 1: playoffs was an eighty two game kind of strategy. You know,
Speaker 1: that's a strat that works awesome against Charlotte in February
Speaker 1: or even a good team in March when they're not
Speaker 1: that you know, the sharpness isn't there to just beat
Speaker 1: it up over and over and over again. And I'm
Speaker 1: curious what you think about that.
Speaker 2: I agree, and I know I mentioned this on the
Speaker 2: last podcast, but I feel like from a defensive performance standpoint,
Speaker 2: I don't think we've ever played better than our personnel.
Speaker 2: Like I think people will discredit our personnel because you know,
Speaker 2: some of the perimeter guys are undersize, you know, but
Speaker 2: this is still a team that year over year performs
Speaker 2: well in the defensive end. I think obviously the impact
Speaker 2: of Evan Mobile and Jared Allen has a massive part
Speaker 2: in that. But these guys are a little better than
Speaker 2: they get credit for. And the thing about you know,
Speaker 2: the saw switch is I just feel like it's a
Speaker 2: passive approach to defense. I feel like we have sat
Speaker 2: back in our shell and we have trusted our personnel
Speaker 2: to do the work, and for the most part, they have.
Speaker 2: But when you look at how teams have disrupted our offense,
Speaker 2: it's by making us uncomfortable. And I think when you
Speaker 2: look at the playoffs, one of the takeaways that I
Speaker 2: have is depth is actually mattering. In this year's playoffs,
Speaker 2: teams are running deeper rotations, and they're using those deeper
Speaker 2: rotations to play a little more aggressive. If you're going
Speaker 2: to play nine to ten guys, I want those guys
Speaker 2: playing really hard in those nine ten minutes. I want
Speaker 2: to see you pressure full court a little bit more.
Speaker 2: If you guys are if you're giving them breaks at
Speaker 2: every you know, six minutes and you're properly using the
Speaker 2: rotation like Kenny did all season, it feels like it's
Speaker 2: low hanging fruit to be a little more aggressive when
Speaker 2: it comes to that end of the floor, to to
Speaker 2: you know, pressure, to to blitz a little bit more,
Speaker 2: to to force guys out of their rhythm. Whereas when
Speaker 2: you're playing and you're trusting the you know, individual defense,
Speaker 2: and you're trusting the integrity of your defensive system, you're
Speaker 2: giving people the matchup that they want without making them
Speaker 2: work for it. They know what to expect from your
Speaker 2: defense every single time up and down the court. Now,
Speaker 2: the defense may still be able to get those stops
Speaker 2: because of the defensive personnel that you have, but if
Speaker 2: they know what to expect all the time, I just
Speaker 2: feel like you are not making teams uncomfortable enough. And
Speaker 2: I think I think that's why when you saw those
Speaker 2: dramatic changes, like okay, we're going to go to a
Speaker 2: three to two zone here, because it was such a
Speaker 2: dramatic deviation, it took time to you know, adjust to that.
Speaker 2: Where I think everything they did defensively this year they
Speaker 2: could do again next year and it would be great.
Speaker 2: But if you're you know, if you're playing shuffle on
Speaker 2: Spotify when it comes to your defensive coverages and what
Speaker 2: you're throwing at teams and changing things up and relying
Speaker 2: on your guys to be more active communicators to do that.
Speaker 2: I think that that's something that I would like to
Speaker 2: see them work on throughout the regular season because I
Speaker 2: think you need to practice that over eighty two games
Speaker 2: in order to be able to do that at a
Speaker 2: championship level. And that's what indeed does. They press shuffle
Speaker 2: on every playoffensively and defensively, and they are ready to
Speaker 2: play that same style when it comes to the playoffs.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting as you're talking about that, it
Speaker 1: does remind me again they did do this against Miami.
Speaker 1: You know, they did it against a less talented team,
Speaker 1: and so like maybe there was a little bit of
Speaker 1: a like, I don't know, like over respect of the
Speaker 1: pacers of like we can't get in the blender with them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but like.
Speaker 2: Maybe they didn't do Maybe they didn't do that against
Speaker 2: Indy because Donovan's banged up, Darius is out, and you know,
Speaker 2: maybe you know, Tie's not going to be able to
Speaker 2: play that style. Maybe I think the more important thing
Speaker 2: is you got to practice that all season.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, But like I guess what I'm saying is,
Speaker 1: think about like the way that they said, Jarrett, we
Speaker 1: want you to challenge every catch for their bigs on
Speaker 1: the way out. What's to stop them from doing that
Speaker 1: to Pascal Siakam, to Miles Turner, especially Myles Turner who
Speaker 1: can't dribble, like you know what, what is to stop
Speaker 1: them from from playing with that kind of pressure and
Speaker 1: that kind of physicality on the catch? What's to stop
Speaker 1: them from full court pressing? Like they just kind of
Speaker 1: didn't do any of that. You know, it was just
Speaker 1: like all right, let Hallie chase whatever switch he wanted,
Speaker 1: you know, either get a blowby or a very clean
Speaker 1: step back, you know, rinse repeat, rinse repeat, rinse repeat
Speaker 1: and again. It's not like Indy absolutely murdered the Calves
Speaker 1: on the offensive side of the ball. So, like I
Speaker 1: am not, I don't want to over index on this
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, I do think
Speaker 1: they lost this series on the offensive side of the floor.
Speaker 1: I mean, and Andy had a one sixteen offensive rating.
Speaker 1: That's not like bananas, but worse than it was against
Speaker 1: the Knicks. Yeah, but I do think getting it you know,
Speaker 1: like that more than the sum of their parts. Thing
Speaker 1: for you is just spot on, Like I don't know
Speaker 1: if this defense that consistently makes teams feel them and
Speaker 1: you know, I think a guy like it's interesting. Remember
Speaker 1: right after when Yannis said that he felt like the
Speaker 1: Calves were a harder defense to play than okay, see yeah,
Speaker 1: and we kind of all puffed up our chests like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we are tough, you know, and if you really like,
Speaker 1: you know, peel that back a layer or two. It's like,
Speaker 1: of course, trying to beat up Jannisnatokumpo is not a
Speaker 1: winning strategy, you know. And of course the team that
Speaker 1: tries to beat him up, he's like, I don't care
Speaker 1: about that at all. I'm the biggest, strongest, most athletic
Speaker 1: guy in the league at that at beating that particular style.
Speaker 1: What's hard for him is having to finish over the shell,
Speaker 1: you know. But like for you know, it's like, we're
Speaker 1: the defensive scheme is almost Taylor made to beat those
Speaker 1: kinds of offenses, not you know, even the k the
Speaker 1: Denvers of the world. You know, think about how well
Speaker 1: they guarded Denver with that style. So like, to some extent,
Speaker 1: there are This is a bit of a you know,
Speaker 1: this is the styles make fights thing, and a more physical,
Speaker 1: violent defense isn't going to work as well against the
Speaker 1: Milwaukee's or the Denvers of the world. But like, being
Speaker 1: able to do both is pretty valuable. And I just
Speaker 1: don't know, you know it, it's just funny to think
Speaker 1: about that comment. And you know how geeked I was
Speaker 1: to hear him say that. It's like, yeah, that's great
Speaker 1: for your honest, but it doesn't work against the Pacers,
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't always work against the Boston Celtics,
Speaker 1: you know. So, like you have to have just as
Speaker 1: the offense needs to think about diversifying themselves and coming
Speaker 1: with all these you know, more playmaking in the front court,
Speaker 1: I think the defense really needs to put on a
Speaker 1: similar cap of like how are we going to kill
Speaker 1: teams in eight different ways as opposed to just being
Speaker 1: really really stable and solid at one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, this isn't to say it's a problem,
Speaker 2: but when the goal is winning a championship, you want
Speaker 2: to look at where you can gain advantages in the margins. Right,
Speaker 2: if we tweak our style of play on the defensive
Speaker 2: end of the court, is it going to give us
Speaker 2: a large margin for error. Is it going to help
Speaker 2: make teams more uncomfortable? And I think when it comes
Speaker 2: to the you know, the soft switching, I just feel
Speaker 2: like we don't have the personnel that makes it necessary
Speaker 2: to do that. And you know, you and I aren't
Speaker 2: lucky enough to have Synergy accounts. But Basketball Index does
Speaker 2: pull a lot of that information from Synergy, and I
Speaker 2: thought it was really interesting to dive into two very
Speaker 2: important metrics when it comes to our perimeter defenders. And
Speaker 2: those metrics are perimeter isolation defense, which is the measure
Speaker 2: of how well a defender's lower shot quality and suppresses
Speaker 2: attempts within perimeter isolation defense adjusted for the average skill
Speaker 2: level of the offensive players guarded. So you know, if
Speaker 2: someone's guarding someone for you know, twelve minutes and they
Speaker 2: go four or five, if you're just looking at you know,
Speaker 2: how do they shoot against them, that's not telling the
Speaker 2: full story, right, So this actually uses that tracking data
Speaker 2: to see how well you not only suppress those shots,
Speaker 2: but how you do in guarding those shots. What's the
Speaker 2: outcomes there? And then the same thing goes for ball
Speaker 2: screen navigation, which is the measure of how well defender
Speaker 2: lower shot quality and suppresses attempts on ball screens. Again,
Speaker 2: it is adjusted for matchup difficulty, So you know, if
Speaker 2: someone like Jalen Brunson, who you know, gets parked on
Speaker 2: an Isaac Ocoro and they don't score, you're going to
Speaker 2: get dinged for that. In these metrics you look at
Speaker 2: matchup difficulty, Brunson's in the fifth percentile in terms of
Speaker 2: who he's guarding. Steph is in the eighth, Halley's in
Speaker 2: the third, even Shay is in the fourteenth because okay, see,
Speaker 2: you know, tries to save them on that end of
Speaker 2: the floor. So any questions before I dive into these
Speaker 2: number of cards, do do you like these stats? Do
Speaker 2: you do you like the data here?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, buddy, go ahead, Okay.
Speaker 2: So the other thing I wanted to look at is,
Speaker 2: you know, if we're looking at it by percentile, it's
Speaker 2: great to be in the fiftieth percentile or you know,
Speaker 2: fifty fifth percentile, you're above average, But how many are
Speaker 2: actually having a positive impact when it comes to perimeter
Speaker 2: isolation defense. The sixty seventh percent is the break even point,
Speaker 2: So two thirds of the league are having at least
Speaker 2: a slight negative effect on perimeter isolation defense for ball
Speaker 2: screen navigation, the break even point is the fifty nine percentile.
Speaker 2: So when you look at the calves, a lot of
Speaker 2: their guys, when they look at the tracking data and
Speaker 2: the impact, you know that they actually have graded out
Speaker 2: not only you know, above average, but positive when it
Speaker 2: comes to both of these metrics. DeAndre Hunter is in
Speaker 2: the eighty nine percentile in isolation, seventy fifth in screen
Speaker 2: s truce, eighty second in ISO, sixty ninth in screen okoro,
Speaker 2: eighty eight percentile in ISO, ninety third in screen navigation.
Speaker 2: These guys all navigate screens incredibly well. Darius Garland eighty
Speaker 2: six percentile in perimeter isolation defense and eightieth percentile when
Speaker 2: it comes to that screen navigation. The only guys that
Speaker 2: have some negative where they're below average. Sam Merrill of
Speaker 2: you know, slight negative fifty fifth percentile in isolation, but
Speaker 2: that's still above average. It's as a slight negative in
Speaker 2: isolation that goes to show you how well he's been
Speaker 2: playing on defense and that screen navigation, which we talked
Speaker 2: about all season. We thought he did a terrific job.
Speaker 2: Ninety third percentile in screen navigation. The only player on
Speaker 2: the roster that has a slight negative impact on both
Speaker 2: of those is Donovan Mitchell. He's fifty sixth in isolation
Speaker 2: and fifty six in screen navigation. I don't worry about
Speaker 2: that as much because we've seen he can turn up
Speaker 2: that defense of intensity in the moments where it really counts.
Speaker 2: He saves himself a little bit, and in both of
Speaker 2: those metrics he's still above average when it comes to
Speaker 2: league average. And then Ty Jerome seventy fourth percentile in
Speaker 2: perimeter defense, forty eighth in screen navigation. So that's the
Speaker 2: only spot out of all those guys where someone is
Speaker 2: actually a negative below league average is Ti Jerome navigating screens.
Speaker 2: But all of these guys are capable and have been
Speaker 2: effective when they're putting up resistance in those situations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean, on one hand, it's encouraging, and
Speaker 1: some of those numbers are, you know, really impressive. I mean,
Speaker 1: having a Hunter up there at the eighty nine, you know,
Speaker 1: Garland up at the eighty sixth, struce in the in
Speaker 1: the upper eighties or the lower eighties, I don't know
Speaker 1: what what's your takeaway from that, like, because like, on
Speaker 1: one hand, you see a lot more really strong ISO
Speaker 1: defending numbers and some more like average screen navigation by comparison, like,
Speaker 1: does that speak to they should be doing this switching
Speaker 1: strategy a little more often and the numbers don't actually
Speaker 1: play to what we think. I don't really agree with that,
Speaker 1: but I mean, what's your takeaway?
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, because this is the result
Speaker 2: of how they played defensively last year. It backs up
Speaker 2: the fact that, hey, this is actually effective.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The two things you see on the perimeter are ball
Speaker 2: screens and basically isolations. So you can see ball screens
Speaker 2: to get you to isolations, right. So that's why I'm
Speaker 2: really looking at these two metrics. But to me, the
Speaker 2: margins are so small when it comes to playoff basketball.
Speaker 2: If you're giving a little bit of foll core press
Speaker 2: and that takes three seconds off of the shot clock,
Speaker 2: that's a win for the defense. If you're fighting the
Speaker 2: screen and you are okay, let's let's get Darius to
Speaker 2: fight through these screens and navigate it. Let's get it
Speaker 2: with Max Roofs and DeAndre Hunter. If the offense is
Speaker 2: forced to rescreen multiple times to get that match up,
Speaker 2: and then you have confidence that if they eventually do
Speaker 2: get you know, the mismatch that they want. You feel
Speaker 2: confident that someone like Darius can you know, match up
Speaker 2: with a Jason Tatum and at least, you know, can
Speaker 2: test the shot and force them to not get to
Speaker 2: the rim. That's a positive. But because you force them
Speaker 2: to do two three screens, you're making them use up
Speaker 2: energy on the offensive end of the floor, and I
Speaker 2: think it's going to actually increase the effectiveness of these numbers.
Speaker 2: So that that would be my argument for it is
Speaker 2: just not conceding the matchup that the offensive team wants
Speaker 2: so freely. You shouldn't be able to get, you know,
Speaker 2: Tyres Halbern onto Jared Allen that easy, and particularly when
Speaker 2: it comes to these guard you know, perimeter to perimeter screens.
Speaker 2: I want Boston to fight to get Jason Tatum onto
Speaker 2: Darius Garland. I don't want to just say, all right, Darius,
Speaker 2: you're you're guarding Tatum on every single possession. You you've
Speaker 2: guarded him more than any other player this season, Like
Speaker 2: no player has contested more Jason Tatum shots this season
Speaker 2: than Darius Garland. That shouldn't be the case. As much
Speaker 2: as Boston wants to get that matchup.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's all very very fair. And like
Speaker 1: the other thing I'll say is, so you look up
Speaker 1: and down that list and super impressive and you go,
Speaker 1: oh man, all these guys in the eightieth percentile are better.
Speaker 1: Must have been a top two, top three defense, wasn't
Speaker 1: It was an eighth defense, you know, not horribly far
Speaker 1: from you know, a top five defense, but still two
Speaker 1: points per one hundred possessions worse than their league leading
Speaker 1: defense two years ago. And so I do think it's
Speaker 1: kind of worth like pointing at the some of the
Speaker 1: parts question, you know, because like you add all the
Speaker 1: you add all those parts. If your scheme is killing
Speaker 1: it with all those great numbers, you would think that
Speaker 1: you'd have a really really you know, shutdown defense. And
Speaker 1: even with even though the defense performed better this year
Speaker 1: than last year by the numbers ranked lower but a
Speaker 1: better defensive rating, I do feel like some of that
Speaker 1: soft switching and that like lack of force on that
Speaker 1: end of the floor did lead to my feeling like
Speaker 1: this defense wasn't as strong as it has been in
Speaker 1: years past. And I agree with that. And it's hard
Speaker 1: to know because the offense was so bananas that, like
Speaker 1: you know, it was always going to feel worse by comparison.
Speaker 1: But I do think there's some meat on that.
Speaker 2: Bone for that coaching staff, and I think some of
Speaker 2: it might also come down to the rotation, right, Like
Speaker 2: when you look at the differences between this team and
Speaker 2: that team, we played more three guard lineups than that
Speaker 2: team did, even though we had some undersized wings. You
Speaker 2: are playing two of the guys that were at least
Speaker 2: below you know, negative impact went when it comes to
Speaker 2: isolation defense and that screen navigation. Zam Merrill and ty Jerome,
Speaker 2: both of those guys were playing a good amount. Like
Speaker 2: you look at the playoffs, zam Merrill played fifty five
Speaker 2: minutes where he was either playing with Darius and Tie
Speaker 2: Donovan or Tie or Darius and Donovan. So that's fifty
Speaker 2: five minutes that he played small forward. You know many
Speaker 2: minutes DeAndre Hunter played with Darius and Donovan at small forward. Six.
Speaker 2: You're talking about nine times more that you're playing a
Speaker 2: three guard lineup with Samuel at small ford. And to
Speaker 2: his credit, those lineups were effective even in the playoffs,
Speaker 2: they were effective. But my thing is, if you're going
Speaker 2: to make yourself feel different on the defensive end of
Speaker 2: the floor, you got to change some of that stuff.
Speaker 2: You can't have a three guard lineup where you know,
Speaker 2: if Indy goes to a three guard lineup, that's a
Speaker 2: lot of guys that can create you know, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of ball movement and stuff like that. When you
Speaker 2: had Donovan and Darius limited and Sam's not able to
Speaker 2: initiate offense, that's a three guard lineup without you know,
Speaker 2: the typical offense of characteristics that you would expect to
Speaker 2: come along with a three guard lineup.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also Tie just I mean, was just a
Speaker 1: total pumpkin in that series. Like you know, I think
Speaker 1: it makes it all feel a lot worse up and down,
Speaker 1: and like Tie is probably the only kind of exception
Speaker 1: I would say to the rule of like of the
Speaker 1: of the stuff rolling downhill kind of theory with role players,
Speaker 1: Like I think he was just bad at an individual level,
Speaker 1: you know, Like.
Speaker 2: I understand you think it's something he can learn from.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand that, Like you know, down the roster,
Speaker 1: it's sometimes the role player output is symptomatic of you know,
Speaker 1: your stars not being there. Like I just think Ty
Speaker 1: just had a bad series, which I honestly think there's
Speaker 1: more peace in that and more data to learn from
Speaker 1: in that like and also and like for me, I
Speaker 1: feel like he'll you know, the chance of him having
Speaker 1: a series like that again. I actually feel really strong
Speaker 1: that he's going to figure it out and learn from
Speaker 1: this about like what it means to be on a
Speaker 1: Rick Carlisle scout and and just you know, and play better.
Speaker 1: Like again, he kind of found his footing at the
Speaker 1: end of Game five where he finally was able to
Speaker 1: start making a bit of an impact again. So it's
Speaker 1: funny with how good he was against Indian in the
Speaker 1: regular season time now, so it's I just can't think
Speaker 1: get past the three guard thing and you know, the
Speaker 1: sam at the three thing. Does it? Are we just
Speaker 1: being dumb jerks because the lineup data was good in
Speaker 1: both instances, and if everything else was going better, it
Speaker 1: would just be fine.
Speaker 2: I think maybe I should clarify my point. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that this is a problem. I'm saying if we
Speaker 2: want to change how it feels to play against the
Speaker 2: Cleveland Cavaliers, that's something that you have to consider. And honestly,
Speaker 2: I would be fine with both of those guys back
Speaker 2: on the you know, on the roster next season. I
Speaker 2: just think that maybe that's one of those, you know,
Speaker 2: considerations you have to have going into free agency, where
Speaker 2: you know the pitch might be, hey, there's some games
Speaker 2: you're not going to play because we're trying to play
Speaker 2: a little bit bigger. We're trying to change up how
Speaker 2: we're playing at the small forward position. Because Sam Merrill
Speaker 2: he played way better than any of my expectations. I
Speaker 2: don't think that guy deserves any blame, whether it's him
Speaker 2: playing at small ford or not. Like he played. You
Speaker 2: look at Cleaning the Glass and says seventy three percent
Speaker 2: of his minutes came at small forward this season. I
Speaker 2: think he held up incredibly well there.
Speaker 1: He held up.
Speaker 2: Incredibly well in the regular season, he held up well
Speaker 2: in the playoffs. He did a great job defensively, you
Speaker 2: know on guys like Tyler Hero, he stepped up. I
Speaker 2: don't think he deserves any blame for how this season went.
Speaker 2: I just feel like, hey, there might have to be
Speaker 2: a decision when you're prioritizing what moves you can make
Speaker 2: in a very limited apron world, are you going to
Speaker 2: have to choose between these two? Because if the decision
Speaker 2: is hey, maybe rotationally yes, well rotationally yes, but both
Speaker 2: of these guys are free agents, which is why I
Speaker 2: think this is actually a conversation because if the decision
Speaker 2: ends up being, hey, we're going to let Tye walk,
Speaker 2: We'll find you know, another veteran backup point guard. But
Speaker 2: we're bringing back Sam Merrill and he's coming in as
Speaker 2: you know, the shooting guard, and Donovan Mitchell is back
Speaker 2: to being the backup point guard. I'm one hundred percent
Speaker 2: fine with that. If the decision is, hey, we're bringing
Speaker 2: Tie back. He gives us so much much juicy, makes
Speaker 2: us better in the regular season. We believe he can
Speaker 2: learn from it. I'm great with that. If you bring
Speaker 2: both and back and the pitches, hey, there's going to
Speaker 2: be some nights you're not playing, it's going to be
Speaker 2: a little more tenuous. And both of them buy into
Speaker 2: that and they're willing to sacrifice for the team. That
Speaker 2: is a huge bonus because both of these guys were
Speaker 2: terrific for the Calves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you know, it's going to be pretty interesting
Speaker 1: because I think both have earned their way back to
Speaker 1: you know, there's there have been there have been pending
Speaker 1: free agents that I'm you know, happy to help walk,
Speaker 1: you know, help happy to help drive to the airport.
Speaker 1: Over the history of this Calves team, you know guys
Speaker 1: that you go, even if you had a good time
Speaker 1: with them, it was you know, it was like you
Speaker 1: knew it was just time for a change. Like you know,
Speaker 1: Jetty was like that. I really loved Jetty as a cavalier,
Speaker 1: but like you knew, it kind of run its course
Speaker 1: and it was time to try something else. I don't
Speaker 1: feel that way about Sam or Tie. But if you're
Speaker 1: looking to like change the alchemy of the roster a
Speaker 1: little bit, it's pretty hard to change it that much
Speaker 1: with like your only two free agents and just bringing
Speaker 1: them back, especially with trades as challenging as they're going
Speaker 1: to be, So like that even isn't going to be
Speaker 1: a even it's going to be a consideration where it's
Speaker 1: like we're happy with both of you, we'd love both
Speaker 1: of you back, but we just don't want to be
Speaker 1: so the same for the third or fourth year in
Speaker 1: a row.
Speaker 2: It goes back to why I said before, Right, we
Speaker 2: have an undersized backcourt because Donald Mitchell is an undersized
Speaker 2: shooting guard. I am okay with that, because he is
Speaker 2: our best player. He is terrific. We need to have
Speaker 2: you know that point guard and you know, you look
Speaker 2: at if I look at you know that data for
Speaker 2: perimeter isolation defense and ball screen defense, what guards six
Speaker 2: four or over are positive defenders in the entire NBA.
Speaker 2: Here's the list, Drew Holiday, Jalen Suggs, Anthony Black, and
Speaker 2: Bruce Brown.
Speaker 3: That's why we got to get Jalen Suggs justin right,
Speaker 3: if you look at point guards six one or taller
Speaker 3: that are positive defenders, so Garland's height or more.
Speaker 2: Obviously those four still count there. The only additions are
Speaker 2: Gabe Vincent obviously, Darius, Maxie, Peyton Pritchard, Isaiah Collier, and
Speaker 2: Scottie Pippen Jr. It's a short damn list, Like, honestly, it's.
Speaker 3: A is it?
Speaker 2: I think it's just Collier? Yeah, I don't know why
Speaker 2: I went Frank.
Speaker 1: Canadian, Canadian, you're too closed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it's it's not a long list. And
Speaker 2: when you look at those guys, like Maxie's the only
Speaker 2: one that you're like, okay, Like he can generate a
Speaker 2: lot of offense, he can he has a usage you
Speaker 2: know that that is comparable to Darius, and Darius had
Speaker 2: a better season than him. None of these, Like you
Speaker 2: look at those six four guys, none of them can
Speaker 2: run an offense, Like Drew doesn't have that in his
Speaker 2: game anymore. Anthony black Shirt doesn't it r thing right,
Speaker 2: Johannest would take a big part of that responsibility. So
Speaker 2: like when you look at this combination of usage and
Speaker 2: also like the results of how you did defensively, Darius
Speaker 2: is one of the only guys that actually fits that description.
Speaker 2: And I you know, I think part of the perception
Speaker 2: is because we can see the sauce witch. It's hey,
Speaker 2: they're hunting Darius. They're getting the matchup they want, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how he holds up in those situations.
Speaker 2: Obviously the point guard is going to be involved in
Speaker 2: you know, these types of matchups. And you know, I
Speaker 2: said how these stats factor in matchup difficulty? Right, and
Speaker 2: how you know Brunson Steph Hallie say, they're all you
Speaker 2: know down there, Darius is in the sixty nine percentile
Speaker 2: for matchup difficulty, Like they they trust him in all
Speaker 2: these situations. They don't hide him on the defensive end
Speaker 2: of the floor. You look at matchup difficulty, obviously the
Speaker 2: leader z Okoro ninety second. Then it goes Max, Wade Hunter,
Speaker 2: all of them are fifth or above. Then it's Allan,
Speaker 2: which I'm not surprised Alan is ahead of MOBILEI because
Speaker 2: we will put Mobiley on a weaker offensive player and
Speaker 2: let him roam. You see the same thing with Draymond's
Speaker 2: matchup difficulty. Then it's Sam Merrill at the forty first percentile,
Speaker 2: Mobiley's forty seventh. I skipped him, and then Donovan is
Speaker 2: twenty fourth percentile. So Donovan's the guy that we're resting.
Speaker 2: I think that's correct because he carries such a big load.
Speaker 2: But it's not like Darius is hiding. It's not like
Speaker 2: he's you know, it's not like we aren't tasking him
Speaker 2: with these matchups. You look at who he covered the most.
Speaker 2: I mentioned, you know, covered a lot of Tatum, it's
Speaker 2: Trey Young, it's LaMelo Ball, it's the point guards, it's
Speaker 2: these lead initiators. He's been trusted in these situations and
Speaker 2: he's held up really well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think to your point though, about the you know,
Speaker 1: about you know, giving up those off switches a little less,
Speaker 1: you know, easily. It's like, yeah, I don't have to
Speaker 1: hide Darius, but I don't need to like put him
Speaker 1: on the firing line over and over and over again.
Speaker 2: Either no, no, And I think I think you see,
Speaker 2: like in those Boston matchups, I think part of why
Speaker 2: he's not as efficient is and you see he misses
Speaker 2: a lot of open shots in those games. I think
Speaker 2: part of why he isn't as efficient is he's being
Speaker 2: worn out on the offensive end. I think we did
Speaker 2: the same thing with Steph Curry in the finals, where
Speaker 2: you would see him missshots that he would normally make
Speaker 2: and he would wear down because we're trying to involve
Speaker 2: him so much defensively. So if we make it a
Speaker 2: little bit harder, I think it's going to make life easier.
Speaker 2: And I think that this is a roster capable of
Speaker 2: doing that. I got one more stat for you, Carter,
Speaker 2: because I love this one. Shout out Seth Park now
Speaker 2: for coming up with a stat. He has a true
Speaker 2: usage rate, So this is your normal usage possession usage rate,
Speaker 2: which for those that aren't familiar, usage rate is any
Speaker 2: possession that ends with you either turning the ball over
Speaker 2: or taking a shot, so the possession ends with you.
Speaker 2: True usage is those two stats. Also adding in any
Speaker 2: time you create an assist opportunity, so if a shot
Speaker 2: ends with you taking a shot, or if a possession
Speaker 2: ends with you taking a shot, turning the ball over
Speaker 2: or passing to someone that's taking a shot. Darius twenty
Speaker 2: second in the league with a true usage rate of
Speaker 2: forty nine percent, so when he's on the court, almost
Speaker 2: fifty fifty of the possessions are ending with him either
Speaker 2: taking a shot, turning it over, or creating an assist opportunity.
Speaker 2: There are three players in the league with a true
Speaker 2: usage rate that high and a positive impact on the
Speaker 2: defensive end when it comes to perimeter defensive ball screen navigation.
Speaker 2: Those players are Franz Wagner, Arrius Garland, and Devin Booker.
Speaker 1: Pretty good peers, you know.
Speaker 2: Like, I just think too much has been made out of,
Speaker 2: you know, trying to to bring in, you know, a
Speaker 2: low usage defensive wing. I don't want to increase the
Speaker 2: usage on Donovan. I think that he and Darius pair
Speaker 2: really well together. I think that mobile taking on a
Speaker 2: larger share of the offensive load is really important. After that,
Speaker 2: after those three, I'm open to suggestions, man, Like, I'm
Speaker 2: open to seeing what this team can do. But I
Speaker 2: just think that people are misdiagnosing what some of the
Speaker 2: issues are based on what their preconceived notions were of
Speaker 2: this roster and what the issues are. Obviously, we have
Speaker 2: concerns when it comes to health. I think if that
Speaker 2: doesn't line up next year and it recurs again, I
Speaker 2: think you got to have some really hard conversations about
Speaker 2: both of the guards if both of them are in
Speaker 2: that spot once again. But I just think that this
Speaker 2: team is talented. It fits incredibly well together. And as
Speaker 2: Kobe said, you know in his end of season presser,
Speaker 2: if I didn't blow it up after last year, why
Speaker 2: would I do it this year?
Speaker 1: Yep, and I tend to agree. Obviously. You got to
Speaker 1: keep keep your offictions open. See if anyone, you know,
Speaker 1: walks you into a great outcome, you know, thinking about
Speaker 1: out what we thought we'd have to give up for
Speaker 1: a DeAndre Hunter and what we gave up, you know,
Speaker 1: super super disparate outcomes there. So you got to keep hunting,
Speaker 1: you got to keep looking, and you got to be
Speaker 1: an icy dude sometimes. But you know, I think there's
Speaker 1: a difference between keeping your mind open and thinking about
Speaker 1: ways to get better and you know, hitting a panic button.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like the ORG is ready to do uh,
Speaker 1: to do the latter, and so to that end, really
Speaker 1: the only thing they can look at is their performance
Speaker 1: is their scheme, because I don't think this organization thinks
Speaker 1: they have a talent problem. You know, whether they're right
Speaker 1: or not, I guess we'll find out. I think we're
Speaker 1: both on the answer being no. That means that the
Speaker 1: scheme and the execution has to get better or or
Speaker 1: it's going to, you know, start looking like a talent
Speaker 1: problem real fast. Totally agree.
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, the core of what we
Speaker 2: want some up is we want the Calves to be
Speaker 2: able to impose their will and impose the style of
Speaker 2: the game on both ends of the floor. And I
Speaker 2: just feel like some of these tweaks are so that
Speaker 2: you're just a little less passive when it comes to
Speaker 2: the style of play. I want the Calves to be
Speaker 2: the ones that make the game feel like it's a
Speaker 2: Cleveland Cavalier game of basketball. And I felt like in
Speaker 2: that series that was Anna Pacers basketball.
Speaker 1: Yep. And I mean, and it's been the problem all
Speaker 1: through the playoffs of this entire tenure. So you know,
Speaker 1: am I going to pretend like I'm as sure that
Speaker 1: they're going to figure out how to do this as
Speaker 1: I was two years ago. I'm not, you know, which
Speaker 1: is why I keep leaning towards I just don't have
Speaker 1: better ideas just yet, you know, Like I don't have
Speaker 1: an idea that I believe in more than I believe
Speaker 1: in this skit, this team figuring it out. But like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean they are are. I think they're going to
Speaker 1: go into this next season's playoffs with you know, dubious
Speaker 1: grains of salt poured on on whatever they do in
Speaker 1: the regular season because of these you know, these identity slips.
Speaker 1: I guess we'll call them. I think that's warranted. Honestly,
Speaker 1: That's that's the way basketball has always worked in my
Speaker 1: entire time watching it as a fan. You know, doubts, people,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, picking apart the team, coming up with
Speaker 1: you know, crazy shake up ideas, stuff like that. That
Speaker 1: just comes with the territory. And I'm with you, like,
Speaker 1: it's impossible to not look at that occurring again and
Speaker 1: not have that be a concern. But to me, the
Speaker 1: counterbalance to that is the biggest question that we had,
Speaker 1: and I think the most important thing was is Evan
Speaker 1: mobily capable of taking the leap and the fact that
Speaker 1: he's already made, you know, the what I think is
Speaker 1: the biggest leap that he needed to make. That gives
Speaker 1: me a lot of confidence that that was so such
Speaker 1: an important piece that if there wasn't that, I'd be
Speaker 1: a little.
Speaker 2: More I'd be a lot more freaked out about how
Speaker 2: this season ended.
Speaker 1: But it is indeed a good team.
Speaker 2: I totally agree that the talent is absolutely there. They
Speaker 2: just need to be able to do what they do
Speaker 2: more consistently. Big thanks to everyone tuning in live on YouTube.
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