1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Also media. Hello everyone, welcome to it could happen here. 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: My name is Mick. I'm here with James and Georgio 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: and we're going to be talking about the documentary Saturda Safari. 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, Hi Mick, thanks for thanks for having us. 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, good to be here. Georgia, do you want 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: to introduce yourself? 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 3: I am Georgio. I am a Bosnian genocide researcher. I'm 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 3: also the founder of the educational tool Voices from Ladrina, 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 3: which is a new educational resource on the genocide in 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 3: Eastern Bosnia in particular, which allows researchers to follow the 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 3: events of the genocide through a simulated social media style 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 3: news feed, so the words of the survivors and the 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 3: perpetrators come to life via the medium of social media. 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 3: I'm also a member of the fantastic mutual aid group 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: Lambeth Mutual Aid in South London. You can follow us 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 3: on Instagram at Lambeth Mutual Aid and you can follow 17 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 3: me on the hellhole that is x at Georgio conn 18 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 3: is ko and not conn as in Econman. 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I think the key information. Okay, great, then 20 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: we're going to do the following. I've prepared roughly one 21 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: page of context here for those of you who remember, 22 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: a few months ago it was announced that the Italian 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: prosecutors want to try and find the people who participated 24 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: in the Sarajevo Safari, and we'll be talking about a 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: documentary that highlights and tries to shed the lights on 26 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: what happened there. The main accusation is that the Army 27 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: of republic A Sriska, which is an entity within Bosnia 28 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: and Herzegovina, that they charged lots of money for tourists 29 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: to come over and shoot at civilians, which is yeah, 30 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: obviously horrible, Yeah, horrific. Nowadays, Bosi and Herzegovina has divided 31 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: into two parts, which is like the Federation of Bosnia 32 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: and Herzegovina and the republic A serb Ska, which is 33 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: essentially the territory that the republic A Cerviska Army gained 34 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: during the war. Because I don't want to be there 35 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: any confusion as to who the parties are, but it's 36 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: pretty much two entities living in one. 37 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 2: Nation state. 38 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: Yes, So, after I've given some context on what happened 39 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: during the Balkan Wars which led up to this event, 40 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking with Georgio about the documentary. Unfortunately, 41 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: the documentary is not available with English subtitles, so I'm 42 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: glad we were having you with us, Georgio, to illuminate 43 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: us a bit more. I also want the preface that 44 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: obviously it's not a thorough history of what happened there. 45 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: That would be way too much information to condense into 46 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: one episode. Also, while this episode will focus on the 47 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: plight of the Bosnian people, I do want to note 48 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: that pretty much every site in this entire conflict did 49 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: horrendous things, committed atrocities, and I think I would be 50 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: ritmiss if I didn't mention that. So we're going to 51 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: start with, like so many things, the Second World War, 52 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: around the formation of Yugoslavia as a communist state, with 53 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: the Serbian city of Belgrade being the center of power. 54 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: The Balkans were a major point of conflict during World 55 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: War Two, with a lot of different parties and state 56 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: actors trying to gain control over the region. Germany, Italy, Hungary, 57 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: Bulgaria and Albania as some of the main actors. A 58 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: variety of alliances and other entities were for which would 59 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: later be used in ethnic and ethnic nationalist discourse as 60 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: a way to highlight the specific ethnic grievances. As a federation, 61 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: Yugoslavia contained multiple ethnicities Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, Montenegrants, and Muslims, 62 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: which would later become the called Bosniaks. And that's how 63 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: I will be referring to them. So at the end 64 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: of World War two, Joseph Tito would be the dictator 65 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: of Yugoslavivia and he would try to counteract all this 66 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: ethnic descent and friction by promoting something that he called 67 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: brotherhood and unity, which sort of put Tito on a 68 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: pedestal as a fatherly figure under whom everyone from all 69 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: the different factions and ethnicities would be equal as Yugoslav people. 70 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: This was only partially successful. The friction was never really resolved, 71 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: and after the death of Tito in the eighties marked 72 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: the beginning of the end. It coincided with an economic 73 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: crisis that sort of made all the different republics where 74 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: all the different ethnicities were centered beholden to themselves. It 75 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: became a bit of a free for all. So after 76 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: that point, like ethno politics and nationalism became the focus 77 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: of all politics just to be really concrete with ethno nationalism, 78 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: we mean like a form of nationalism that is based 79 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: solely on ethnicity, not on citizenship or participation in a community. 80 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: It's a lighter version of the blood and soil politics 81 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: that became very synonymous with a certain German period of time. 82 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: So what happened with this ethnic centric discourse is that 83 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: perceived and real grievances became central to almost all politics, 84 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: most notably, but not certainly exclusively under a Slobodn melosophych 85 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: into power late eighties in Serbia, ethnic rhetoric would be 86 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: the focal point for his politics and a sense the power. 87 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: He would say things that would turn into slogans, and 88 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: with that captured a vital part of the the animosity 89 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: that a large part of the Serbian population would feel. 90 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: Phrases like a weak Serbia means a strong Yugoslavia, hinting 91 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: at the decline of Serbian power and the way they 92 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,119 Speaker 1: perceived this sort of slow fracturing that Yugoslavia was going through. 93 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: Another one was in response to a Kosovari serp was 94 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: allegedly beaten by a Kosovari Albanian, and Melosovich said no 95 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: one should dare beat you, meaning that by virtue of 96 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: being Serbian, they should be granted some sort of additional 97 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: status or some sort of untouchability because they were ethnic Serbs. 98 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: These examples served to make clear that the changing and 99 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: growing public opinion among the Serbs was that the only 100 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: way for them to be secure and say was as 101 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: a national states controlled by the Serbs. So the whole 102 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: idea was that they would control the entirety of Yugoslavia 103 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: and that their ethnic group would be in control of 104 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: the majority of the political institutions that were present there. 105 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: As I think you both can imagine, this did not 106 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: go over well with other ethnic groups. Yeah, so we're 107 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: just not very keen on being part of the federation 108 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: controlled by the Serbs. In March of nineteen ninety eight, 109 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: the Croatian War of Independence started, and later that year 110 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,679 Speaker 1: Slovenia did the same, both scents that sparked the war 111 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: already with the Serbs. Bosnia and Herzegovina followed later. A 112 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: referendum was held in early nineteen ninety two on whether 113 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: or not they were going to secede. They just to secede, 114 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: and in March of that year, Serbian forces attacked Bosnia 115 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: and towns and terrain that they deemed to be the 116 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: Serbian territory. Near the end of May, the Yugoslav People's 117 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: Army attempted to gain control over the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo, 118 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: but filled to do so completely. At this point, the 119 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: battle became a prolonged siege that would last until February 120 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: of ninety six. Just to add a little bit more 121 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: about the location. Geographically speaking, defending Sarajevo was really difficult. 122 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: This city lies between several mountains, which made it very 123 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: easy for Serbine forces to set up artillery, ordinance and snipers. 124 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: These would have very long lines of sights and greater 125 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: range due to the elevated positions that they were set 126 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: up in. If you look at a map of Sarajevo 127 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: with like the terrain AF for Google Maps or something, 128 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: you can see how much elevation there is all around 129 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: the city. Roads and passes leading out of the city 130 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: were blocked by Serbian forces, and once they had full 131 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 1: control of the airport, there was little to away for foods, medicine, 132 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: or reinforcements to be deployed there. Within the city itself, 133 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: Serbian forces also controlled a majority of major military positions 134 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: with additional snipers being positioned around them. Multiple areas became 135 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: incredibly dangerous to cross or approach, particularly the main road 136 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: leading towards the airports. It became known as sniper Alley. 137 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: And I think it is in this context that we 138 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: should start to discuss the documentary allegations. So, yeah, anything 139 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: to add from either of you. 140 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, it might. 141 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 4: It might serve to explain how in the greater European 142 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 4: political landscape, entities on the right, I guess in the 143 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 4: global North generally began to sympathize with actors in the 144 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 4: former Yugoslavia, right, and how like maybe we can draw 145 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 4: some lines between them based on their definition of nation, 146 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 4: what they considered a nation to be. If that's something 147 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 4: you'd like to explain to. 148 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: People, Yeah, absolutely. 149 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 3: I think what's really important to stress is that when 150 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 3: it came to Bosnia, and it's still the case to 151 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: this day to a lesser degree, the Bosnian Muslims the 152 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 3: Bosniacs found themselves at this very peculiar intersection of oppression 153 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 3: in which you had the Western European rights framing the 154 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 3: war against Bosnia as a restoration of Christian Europe this 155 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 3: was what John Major, how John Major was talking about it, 156 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 3: who was then the Prime Minister of the UK. It's 157 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 3: also the kind of language we heard from mitteent in 158 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: France and to some extent in the Clinton administration. Are 159 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: so Bill Clinton read that horrendous book Balkan Ghosts by Kaplan, 160 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 3: his administration's rhetoric began to change and sort of framed 161 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 3: this as this inevitable, you know, clash between these perpetually. 162 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: Fighting tribes in the Balkans. 163 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 3: You know, the legacies of that rhetoric are still heard 164 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 3: in today's journalism. You know, I can't count the amount 165 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 3: of times in even left leaning, supposedly Western journalistic publications, 166 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: I've seen the word Balkanization being thrown around, you know, 167 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 3: and these this is what I'm talking about in terms 168 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 3: of the intersection of dehumanization, exoticization, and oppression that particularly 169 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 3: Bosnia and the Muslims of Bosnia Bosniacs have found themselves at. 170 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 3: And so you had that on the one side, coming 171 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: from the right. And by the way, the subs nationalists 172 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 3: knew this. They tailored their rhetorics so so so effectively 173 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: to present this case of we are fighting Europe's battle 174 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 3: against Islamist extremists. But at the same time you had 175 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 3: the Western European political left, and by political left I 176 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 3: mean your Marxist Leninists, that sort of tradition within the 177 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 3: political left in Western Europe sort of buying into this 178 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 3: co opting of anti fascist discourse from the Mlashevich regime. 179 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: You know, make reference the Noah wun shall dare beat 180 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 3: you speech in Kosovo, which was actually in response to 181 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 3: a at best hyperbolized, at worst fictitious claim that the 182 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: Kosovo Serbs were basing this institutional violence, and that co 183 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 3: opting of that rhetoric that the Miloshovich regime did so 184 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 3: well as these anti imperialists fighting against the evil axis 185 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 3: of the West did kind of work to some degree 186 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 3: when we're thinking about the response of the political parties 187 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 3: on the left in Western Europe that were very sort 188 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 3: of anti any intervention. And we can have a conversation about, 189 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 3: you know, NATO intervention and how problematic that was. But 190 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: this very black and white thinking, very black and white 191 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: rhetoric coming from those political actors in the West of well, 192 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 3: this has nothing to do with us. Don't buy into 193 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 3: the rhetoric that there are bad things happening is you know, everyone's. 194 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: Doing bad things. 195 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 3: Therefore we shouldn't do anything to put any pressure on 196 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 3: the Miloshovich regime. And so the reason why I'm bringing 197 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 3: this all up is because if people can understand, then 198 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: it becomes more understandable how Bosnia was left to burn. 199 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 3: How the Bosnian Muslims in particular, who were being targeted 200 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 3: by Serb forces and Croat forces both on the basis 201 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 3: of their religious and ethnic identities, they found themselves completely abandoned. 202 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 3: And obviously that abandonment really is embodied in the arms 203 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: embargo that served none of the victims. It only served 204 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: the Yugoslav army, which was effectively funding and sponsoring the 205 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 3: Serb forces who were committing genocide in Bosnia. And of 206 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 3: course the Krowat forces Zagreb had the Croatian regime funding them. 207 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 3: So this arms embargo, which was supposed to be this, 208 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 3: you know, for want of a better word, neutral stance 209 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: for the world to take, was not neutral at all. 210 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 3: Of course, as we know, there's no such thing as neutrality, 211 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 3: blah blah blah. But this was really how it became possible. 212 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 3: But such a high number of people, the vast majority 213 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 3: Muslim people to be killed whilst the genocide was being televised. 214 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's super important. 215 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: You brought up Bill Clinton reading that book. I thought 216 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: of putting it in there, but I didn't want to 217 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: smirche Bill Clinton's good name here. But essentially, what the 218 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: book does is it's sort of correct me if I'm wrong. 219 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: It sort of puts forth this clash of civilizations kind 220 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: of rhetoric where these two people are so different, are 221 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: so different, they will always inevitably clash and fight and 222 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: kill each other as sort of a biologically determined factors. Almost. Yeah, 223 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: I mean we see a similar sort of thing. 224 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 3: I mean, there were specificities to Palestine, but we see 225 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 3: a similar sort of thing with the sort of liberal 226 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 3: humanistic rhetoric of let's view the what's happening in Gaza 227 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 3: as beyond ethnic labels, you know, and we're going to 228 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: see the humanity behind everyone, and you know, we you know, 229 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 3: I saw as a German comedian who was putting up 230 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 3: posters of Palestinians who had been killed and Israelis who 231 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 3: had been killed, and removing the ethnic labels and just 232 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 3: putting human killed. And it's going back to this what 233 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 3: you're talking about in terms of here are two communities 234 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 3: that are always fighting each other, and we lose sight 235 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 3: of everyone's humanity as a result. And if they would 236 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 3: just stop fighting, if they were just you know, stopped 237 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 3: for a second and look beyond the labels, then the 238 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 3: world would be a better place. And it's all, in 239 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 3: my opinion, tied up in the same illogic as that 240 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 3: book was getting it. 241 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: It's sort of own sea color approach. 242 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 4: But the conflicts yes, yes, yes, okay, yeah, yeah, it's 243 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 4: similar narrative that's deployed in Syria and me and margely 244 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 4: like to go to response of neoliberalism when they have 245 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 4: absolutely no understanding of a situation beyond that there is 246 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 4: conflict there and people are dying, right Like, it's a 247 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 4: very easy response for anyone in a politician or an 248 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 4: ind o or who wants to write a ship book like, 249 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 4: it's very easy to do that and to sell that 250 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: narrative right to appealing to people who don't know fuck 251 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 4: all about it. 252 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And I also want to add another thing 253 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: because nowadays Bosnian Herzegovina as a is divided into two parts, 254 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: which is like the Federation of Bosnian Herzegovina, and the 255 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: republic A Serb Ska, which is essentially the territory that 256 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: the republic A Cervi Sco Army gained during the war. 257 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: Because I don't want to be there any confusion as 258 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: to who the parties are, but it's pretty much two 259 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: entities living in one. 260 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 2: Nation state. 261 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: Yes, this was also like a recurring theme when I 262 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: was in Bosnia for my master Tisis. There is a 263 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: deep sentiment with the people but also politically that Bosnia 264 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: X were left to their faith because Bosnian hearts giving 265 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: as the only Muslim majority country in Europe, and there 266 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: is a very deep feeling of like the reason that 267 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: we were left out in the colt, that we were 268 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: abandoned is because it was a Muslim majority country. And 269 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: I think that's just a very important thing to highlight 270 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: because that is also a starting point of the vilification 271 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: of Muslims by virtue of being Muslim, that sort of 272 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: ideological war of the West versus the Eastern Muslims that 273 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: sort of started to coalesce at around that time. 274 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 3: I think I don't know if i'd say it was 275 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 3: the start, but what I would say is the legacies 276 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 3: of Europe's obsession with the Ottoman Empire really came to 277 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 3: the fore in Bosnia because a lot of the rhetoric 278 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 3: and the discourses that were being produced by Serb forces 279 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 3: hinged around this idea that we, the Serbs, are finishing 280 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 3: the job that we started in the Balkan Wars. 281 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: Of the eighteen hundreds and nineteen hundreds. 282 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 3: We are finishing the job of getting rid of this 283 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 3: remnant of the Ottoman Empire the Muslims in Bosnia. And 284 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 3: in fact, you know, I always go to a piece 285 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 3: of footage from the eleventh of July nineteen ninety five 286 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: when the General of the Army of the Republic Assavska Ratkomladic, 287 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:01,479 Speaker 3: who is serving a life sentence for genocide, his forces entered, 288 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 3: they invaded, had fallen, and he says to the camera, 289 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 3: we have come here to take revenge on the Turks. 290 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: And I think that. 291 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 3: Really embodies what I'm trying to say here, which is 292 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 3: that these legacies of this clash of civilizations that were 293 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 3: sort of prominent in the various wars against the Ottomans 294 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 3: came back and. 295 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: They were redeployed. 296 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 3: They were reactivated by sub forces in particular, but also 297 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 3: crap forces to a lesser degree. And you know, I 298 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 3: go back to what I was saying before John Major, saying, 299 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 3: this is a painful but inevitable restoration of Christian Europe 300 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 3: on some level. On some level, Western Europe was buying 301 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 3: into it on some level. So yeah, I don't think 302 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 3: it was the start of the vilification of Muslims, but 303 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 3: I think that it was intertwined with previous legacies that 304 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 3: were reactivated. 305 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, and this was very much the zeitgeist at that time, right, 306 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 4: like Huntington's Right and clash of civilizations. 307 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 2: Then it seems like a. 308 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 4: Lot of the response in much of the world to 309 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 4: the end of the Cold War was to create another enemy, 310 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 4: and that became Islam. That's sort of the discourse after Fukuyama. 311 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 4: Sorry to mention Fukiyama, but like people didn't want there 312 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 4: to be apart from him, like an end to the 313 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 4: conflict of how to organize our societies and because that's 314 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 4: a ludicrous thesis, and so they they're very much I 315 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 4: think a lot of the sort of fear that plays 316 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 4: such an important role in politics in many of our 317 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 4: countries was remobilized in this orientalist packaging towards most of 318 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 4: the people that as you say, built on centuries of bigotry. 319 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 4: My only engagement with the conflict when I was much 320 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 4: younger was that somebody who I knew through cycling had 321 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 4: previously been a football hooligan. I think that's probably how 322 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 4: we would describe himself. There was a great deal of 323 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 4: exchange in fan violence, I guess would be the academic 324 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 4: term between the former Yugoslavia and the rest of Europe, 325 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 4: which is so interesting and not a great way to 326 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 4: learn about things. 327 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 3: I mean, what's interesting is that there has been a 328 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 3: direct connection between the far right nationalist gangs, the paramilitaries 329 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 3: that committed atrostees, and some of the Serbian football clubs, 330 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 3: and in particular the ultras in those. 331 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: Clubs, because those football clubs were the. 332 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 3: Sort of gateway for mafia bosses to transition back into 333 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 3: normal society. So yeah, it's a very interesting area of 334 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 3: the broader conflict. 335 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: Ye. I think at this point we should get back 336 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: on back on track a bit. Yes, let's talk about 337 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: the thing we came to talk about. Yeah, yeah, well 338 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the siege of Sarajevo and 339 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: the documentary The Sarajevo Safari. But first we should experience 340 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: the prolonged siege of advertisements. 341 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 4: And we're back, as we said before we left to 342 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 4: the siege areas with advertisements. 343 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 2: We should talk about this, this Sarajevo Safari. 344 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 4: I guess maybe should we just begin by by summarizing 345 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 4: the the maybe allegations still the correct word. I don't 346 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 4: know the events that are documented in the film. Let's 347 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 4: say that. 348 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: Yeah. So. 349 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: The Sarajevo Safari Documentary was a is a documentary that 350 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 3: was made by Slovenian filmmaker Miran and it presents long 351 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 3: allegations that there was a form of war tourism taking 352 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: place during the Siege of Sarajevo, in which affluent non 353 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 3: Bosnians were paying very high fees to shoot at civilians 354 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 3: from sniper positions being held by the Army of the public. 355 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 3: These allegations and the narrative of the documentary is presented 356 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 3: through witness testimony, including an anonymous former intelligence agent, and 357 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 3: the film and the sort of the testimonies that are 358 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 3: part of the film claim that this war tourism, or 359 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 3: this safari, this hunting human hunting game effectively business, was 360 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 3: a sophisticated, organized and secret operation one of the most 361 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 3: shocking allegations that the documentary brings light is that these 362 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 3: non Bosnian. 363 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: Forests, the want of a better words, would pay even 364 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: more money to shoot at children. 365 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 3: Now in total, I mean that we don't have exact 366 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 3: figures for various reasons that are very complicated. It's estimated 367 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 3: that over eleven thousand people were murdered in Sarajevo from 368 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 3: these snipers. So the fact that this documentary is presenting 369 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 3: these allegations that it wasn't just a Serb affair and 370 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 3: that there were other nationals taking part in these crimes 371 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 3: is huge. 372 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: It is huge. 373 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's kind of the gist of what the 374 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 3: documentary is trying to put across. Obviously, there's more that 375 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 3: I could say about the context and about sort of 376 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 3: the context of the of the case that has been 377 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 3: taken up in Italy, but you know, we can talk 378 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 3: about that as we as we go go along. 379 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think one of the allegations is also that 380 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: there's like tourists from like the United States, from Canada, 381 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 1: from Russia and also from Italy to not go down 382 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole instantly. I just want there to ask you, Giorgio, 383 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: because I first heard about this film when I was 384 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,959 Speaker 1: in Sarajevo and back then, well, my first instinct was 385 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: this has to be some sort of conspiracy theory, and 386 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: that is partly to do with the person I interviewed 387 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: back then and the way it was presented to me 388 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: during that interview, but also because I don't think any 389 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: of us is shocked that the atrocities and the crimes 390 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: against humanity of war, but this somehow feels like another level. 391 00:26:54,080 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: So what was your first impression Bosnian genocide researchery to 392 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: something like this happening. 393 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 3: My first reaction was, I mean, I don't want to 394 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 3: take away from the gravity of the documentary. 395 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: I was shocked, but not surprised. 396 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 3: So it is shocking that this sort of spectacle of 397 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 3: violence was happening to that extent. In the same way 398 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 3: that it's shocking that the concentration camps of Omasca, all 399 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 3: of those concentration camps were being televised and were still 400 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 3: in operation. I mean, yes, eventually the international pressure shut 401 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 3: them down, but it took a long time. That is 402 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 3: all shocking. It is shocking that the peace agreement that 403 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 3: brought a formal end to the conflict legitimized simultaneously the 404 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 3: political project of the Republica by recognizing the entity. All 405 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 3: of these things are shocking. So for me, the allegations 406 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 3: of the documentary fall into this broader, abject failure and 407 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 3: complicity of the so called international community in the crimes 408 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 3: that were being committed in Bosnia. So that is why 409 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 3: I'm not surprised. I was shocking. The content is shocking. 410 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 3: The fact that it was able to happen is not surprising, 411 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 3: And I think the documentary speaks to the broader complicity 412 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 3: of so many layers of society in the atrocities that 413 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 3: were being committed. You know, let's be real, let's be 414 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 3: really really blunt here. The countries from which the tourists 415 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 3: came are not the only countries that are implicated in 416 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 3: the atrocities of the war and genocide in Bosnia. You 417 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 3: had far right volunteer is from Greece who were being 418 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 3: trained by Ratko Mladich's army who were in on the 419 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 3: eleventh of July, that the Greek state has never investigated. 420 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 3: You had banks in Cyprus that were allowing Lashevich to 421 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 3: funnel his money into them during the embargo. You know, 422 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 3: there are so many states who on some level have 423 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 3: played a role in the atrocities that have not held 424 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 3: themselves or their nationals accountable. So yeah, that is my reaction, 425 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 3: if that makes sense to you guys. 426 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: You know. 427 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, we live in a in a age where 428 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 4: they get most people's thoughts are directly transcribed to their 429 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 4: social media profiles at all times, right, And I think 430 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 4: it is probably easy than it has ever been for 431 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 4: us to bear witness to a genocide, as multiple genocides 432 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 4: are recurring, like at the time that we're recording, right, 433 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 4: But obviously that's the most I wouldn't even say the 434 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 4: most well documented. The one that certainly gets the most 435 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 4: social media attention is to one happening in Gaza for 436 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 4: pretty obvious reasons. People are probably better placed now to 437 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 4: understand this in the context of a genocide than they 438 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,479 Speaker 4: would have been five years ago, even right that the 439 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 4: project of a genocide has happened so in the open, 440 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 4: and then they have seen nations which claim to be 441 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 4: opposed to these things, and institutions which were created to 442 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 4: stop genocides do nothing. So I think it's probably easier 443 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 4: than ever for people to understand the dehumanization that happens 444 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 4: and the way that these things progress. But I wonder 445 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 4: like it's just such a like you said, make like 446 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 4: it's one thing to go to war, right, and it's 447 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 4: another thing to have war come to you, like like 448 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 4: I have traveled to report on wars, but the as 449 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 4: you said, right, war isn't trying to be violent, and 450 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 4: in this particular war, acts of inhuman violence happened often 451 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 4: and from a great deal of actors, right, But like 452 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 4: it's one thing when it's your community that is under threat, 453 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 4: your family have been killed, and then you respond with violence, 454 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 4: Like it doesn't make it right, but that is how 455 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 4: war is. It's another thing to pay to hop on 456 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 4: a flight and go and shoot a child like that 457 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 4: is particularly craven. So I wonder like it seems like 458 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 4: the cases that the prosecutions are mostly focusing on, like 459 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 4: people from the Italian far right, do you have an 460 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 4: idea of like this was for them part of that 461 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 4: project of like like doing a second conquista, right for 462 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 4: one of a better term, like purging Muslim people from Europe, 463 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 4: or if it was simply the thrill of killing other humans. 464 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 3: I think it would be remiss to try and detach 465 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 3: the thrill of killing humans from who those humans are, 466 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 3: That's my honest opinion, that's fair. 467 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: I think, you know. 468 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 3: I know less about the granular details of these people 469 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 3: from Italy, from the far right who were going to 470 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 3: do this. But if I think about what I know 471 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 3: about the Greek far right volunteers, where we have a 472 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 3: bit more information to go on and why they were 473 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 3: going to Bosnia. This was all about fighting the Turks. 474 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 3: This was all about helping our Christian brothers, the Serbs 475 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 3: in their fight against the Muslims. And I suspect that 476 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 3: it wasn't too similar in the political imaginary of the 477 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 3: Italian far rights, and not just the Italian far right, 478 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 3: I mean, as we said, from all the other countries 479 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 3: where they were coming from. So yeah, I think there 480 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 3: was a framing that was behind a lot of this 481 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 3: international participation that the Serb nationalists were very aware of, 482 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 3: and they were very deliberate in the discourses that they 483 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 3: were producing. 484 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: I'll give you another example. 485 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 3: When I was working at the Memorial Center, I was 486 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 3: read in Celebrata. I was reading the transcripts of the 487 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 3: Assembly of the Odpublaska during the war, and in those 488 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: transcripts I can count on one hand, the amount of 489 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 3: times that Serb nationalist officials referred to Bosnian Muslims as 490 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 3: Bosnian Muslims. 491 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: They were. 492 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 3: In the vast majority of cases referred to as either 493 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 3: Turks or Islamists or terrorists or even or Stasia, who 494 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 3: for anyone listening who may not be aware, were the 495 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 3: Croatian see aligned regime that took control of what is 496 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 3: today Bosnia and Herzegovina and also what is today Croatia 497 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 3: during the Second World War. And so you know, this 498 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 3: course is they are produced for a reason. And I 499 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 3: know I'm going a little bit, you know, sort of 500 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 3: full core and whatever. I don't like talking in that way, 501 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 3: but I will try to keep it as accessible as possible. 502 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 3: When people produce discourses, it's to create not only a 503 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 3: sense of what is true and what is false, but 504 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 3: also it's to create this feeling of truth. 505 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 1: It's what feels right. 506 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 3: So you know, it felt right to so many members 507 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 3: of the far right to take up arms and hop 508 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 3: on a plane or whatever and go to Bosnia to fight, 509 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 3: you know, without questioning what actually the war and genocide 510 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 3: was about. 511 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: It felt right. 512 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 3: And so that's how these discourses, that's what they served 513 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 3: to create this feeling of this is the truth and 514 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 3: this is the right thing for us to do. Yeah, 515 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 3: that was a very long winded answer. I apologize, No 516 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 3: you doing it. 517 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 4: It reminds me a lot of the discourses that we 518 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 4: saw in Myanmar preceding the genocide of the Hinda people, right, like, 519 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 4: very rarely did we see them referred to by that name, 520 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 4: or of them being natives of me and Mara, or 521 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 4: them having been there for centuries. They're referred to as terrorists, 522 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 4: they're referred to as banglaed asues. They're referred to as 523 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 4: illegal immigrants. They're often referred to as members of the 524 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,800 Speaker 4: Islamic state for Iraq and al Sham, which showed a 525 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,240 Speaker 4: fundamental misunderstanding of those last two words. But it's important, 526 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 4: I think, to see these commonalities because we should be 527 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 4: able to identify these things and then like see how 528 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 4: dangerous they are. 529 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. You know who doesn't produce discourses that make 530 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: people hope on flights to other countries. 531 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: I'm not sure we can say that these days, let's hope. 532 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, but we have to think of something, 533 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: so I guess this will do it. Yeah, you can't 534 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: have golden pivots all the time. 535 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: All right, we are back. 536 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 4: Should we talk a little more in depth about like 537 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 4: this practice of human safaris, right, or at least the 538 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 4: allegations that are made so well. 539 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,959 Speaker 1: I am curious Georgia, because I was still reading into 540 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: this bit earlier today. One of the testimonies that popped 541 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: up during the trial of Dragomir Molosovich not Slobodon. I'm 542 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: not sure if there are related, to be honest, probably not. 543 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: But there's an American called Jean Jordan who testified at 544 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: the International Criminal Courts. He led a volunteer fighter fighter 545 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: units during the siege, but he also says that some 546 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: of the people he worked with also had seen tourists 547 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: in other areas and most stars named specifically. Is there 548 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: any more detail in there about this happening in other 549 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: areas of Bosnia or other places. 550 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 3: Well about most that in particular, I am not sure 551 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 3: because I've not heard myself of those allegations. Obviously, there 552 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 3: was the Green Volunteer Guard who were in places like Cerebra, Miza, 553 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 3: but also with che Grad. They went on after the 554 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 3: war to become well, actually, sorry, I'll correct myself. Even 555 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 3: at that time they were part of the what later 556 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 3: became Golden Dawn, the far right now criminal organization was 557 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 3: a political party, so that you know you had that 558 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 3: happening in terms of tourists non combatants. I am not 559 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 3: aware of other places where it was happening on a 560 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 3: large scale, like in Sararevro. So yeah, I'm not perhaps 561 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 3: the best place to go into more detail about that, 562 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 3: but I will definitely talk to my contacts in Mosta 563 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 3: about to allegation, any allegations there. 564 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess one thing that I want to ask is, like, 565 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 4: we're seeing a very limited persecution right in Italy, and 566 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 4: I think maybe also in somewhere in like is it 567 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 4: in Belgium or the Netherlands? I thought I read that 568 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 4: there was another prosecution, not not to confuse, as few 569 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 4: countries make sorry, but for the people who survived the genocide, right, 570 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 4: what does this You can't speak on their behalf, of course, 571 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 4: but like, on the one hand, it is some very 572 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 4: small move towards justice, but at least it's a movement. 573 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 4: But on the other hand, right, like the deaths of 574 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 4: their family members have been played out in this documentary 575 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 4: and it must be very difficult to understand just how like, 576 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 4: I don't know, casually like life was taken during this genocide. 577 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think it helps healing? 578 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,240 Speaker 4: Like I guess I'm struggling to phrase out of the question, 579 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 4: but you know, like I'm interested to know how this 580 00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 4: this this lands from that perspective, I guess the. 581 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 3: The general mood among survivors in Bosnia is that no 582 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 3: one cares about what happened to us. These films that 583 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 3: go on to get awards potentially and they know the 584 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 3: filmmakers get pat on the back and all of that. 585 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 3: They sort of there's a lot of cynicism around that. 586 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 3: And we saw this in particular in regard to Corvadis. 587 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 3: Either I'm not sure if you both watched that, but 588 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 3: that recent one was that twenty twenty one, maybe a 589 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 3: few years ago, which if anyone who hasn't watched it 590 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 3: is a film that depicts the genocide Instebnitza, and you know, 591 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 3: and that won some awards that I can't remember the 592 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 3: titles of them. But you know, the sort of response 593 00:40:54,239 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 3: among particularly the Bosniac community was one of mixed emotions. Yes, 594 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 3: on the one hand, it was, you know, something that 595 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 3: they were willing to support you know, they would hold 596 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 3: screenings of the film, they would you know, collaborate with 597 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 3: the director. But on the other hand, there was this 598 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 3: sense of okay, and now what. And I think from 599 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 3: the conversations that I've had with Bosniaks and from the 600 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 3: articles that I've read in response to this documentary, there's 601 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 3: a similar sort of mood of Yeah, this is really important, 602 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 3: and we have been making these allegations for a long time, 603 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 3: or we've been aware of the allegations for a long time. 604 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 3: Why is it getting attention now? What's going to happen now? 605 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 3: Can we trust that the Italians will, that Italy will 606 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 3: actually carry on with this investigation and that justice will 607 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 3: be had? And also, you know, the notion of justice 608 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 3: is so fraught in Bosnia as well. I think that 609 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 3: sort of to imagine that we are on this path 610 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,320 Speaker 3: towards you know, this linear path towards absolute healing and 611 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 3: absolute justice and reconciliation, I think is a sort of 612 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,879 Speaker 3: a notion that that comforts a lot of Western NGOs, 613 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 3: is not necessarily reflective but reality. 614 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: On the ground. 615 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't think I would be connecting this 616 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 3: with any sense of healing at this stage. 617 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that makes sense. It can be easy 618 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 2: to see it as like, well, it's out. 619 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 4: In the open now, people have watched a film about 620 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 4: it right now, you know, Like I think a lot 621 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 4: about the the geno said, these are UCD people, and 622 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:49,280 Speaker 4: how like it essentially just has been addicting what twelve 623 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 4: years ago now and it's been entirely forgotten. Yeah, but 624 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 4: most people, many of those people, you know, I have 625 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 4: been to where they are and in terrible condition, to 626 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 4: refugee camps in Iraqi. Coat it is done right, and yeah, 627 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,399 Speaker 4: people are aware of it. Every now and again someone 628 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 4: writes something about it. But like those those people are 629 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 4: no closer to any form of healing. You know that 630 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 4: they still can't even many cases have not returned to 631 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 4: their homes. 632 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 3: I mean, this is the thing in you know, particularly 633 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 3: in the in the republic Subska entity. You know, bosniactual 634 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 3: living in that entity, they face material procarity on an 635 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 3: everyday basis, They face threats, they face genocide, triumphalism every 636 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 3: year when the public subscar celebrates the bounding of the entity, 637 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 3: all of these everyday violences don't go away because of 638 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 3: a film. And I think that bosniacts that I have 639 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 3: come to know, in living in the entity of the Republic, 640 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 3: Asska really carry that sense of we're dealing with ships 641 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 3: every day. Every day, we are facing material battles, and 642 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 3: we're doing it alone most of the time. So yeah, 643 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 3: it's very difficult to put an optimistic, hopeful twist on 644 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:13,800 Speaker 3: these things. 645 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember, I was one year later than you 646 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: were there. I was also at the memorial in Cerebernizzaotachari 647 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,799 Speaker 1: and I remember I'm not going to name a name, 648 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: but there was someone who was living in the area 649 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: who spoke to us, and someone from my group wanted 650 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: to film that, and I remember that the man was 651 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 1: very very adamant that, hey, I do not want to 652 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: be filmed. I already need to walk these streets. 653 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:45,959 Speaker 2: That is enough. 654 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: You should have asked for permission. I also remember, like 655 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,239 Speaker 1: put in posters when walking through through Cerebitza, and he 656 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: wants on certain windows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I also 657 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: want to cut in with some else because after James 658 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: mentioned that other countries were prosecuting as well, I quickly 659 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 1: googled something. Apparently Italy has already named a suspect in 660 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 1: the investigation. So interesting, yes, now eighty year old man, yeah, yeah, 661 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 1: who was a truck driver. Yes, this is something that 662 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: that had come up. When I was writing everything. 663 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 4: I had assumed that this was something that was extremely 664 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 4: I don't know, expensive, I suppose just because it's so 665 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,279 Speaker 4: fucked up and that, yeah, like it's once it was 666 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,239 Speaker 4: someone who they're eighty now would have been fifty at 667 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,840 Speaker 4: the time, so someone who was not young, and I 668 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:47,160 Speaker 4: had a relatively working class profession, like it's that's that 669 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 4: just isn't the profile I had in my head. And 670 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,280 Speaker 4: I just wanted if you knew any more about developments 671 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,479 Speaker 4: in the case that might like. 672 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 3: I mean, to be really honest, I don't have much 673 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,400 Speaker 3: more to contribute into in terms of that of the 674 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 3: suspect and what's going on. You know, I think it 675 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 3: was he was summoned to testify last week. I think 676 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 3: you were going to testify on the eleventh, or maybe 677 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 3: maybe the ninth. I think maybe the ninth, but I 678 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,879 Speaker 3: haven't heard anything beyond that. So I mean, in terms 679 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 3: of what you were saying about the profile of the suspect, 680 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 3: I mean, yes, on the one hand, it goes against 681 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,400 Speaker 3: the whole idea that it was wealthy tourists only. But 682 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:42,359 Speaker 3: let's also remember that in terms of domestic participation. There 683 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 3: was a lot of capital to be gained by serving 684 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 3: the Publicaska project. I mean you had everything from civilian 685 00:46:55,680 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 3: Serb civilian truck drivers who have to deport civilians, Bosniya activilians. 686 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 3: You had Serb civilians who were hired to dig secondary 687 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 3: in tertiary graves, mass graves. There was an array of 688 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 3: positions capital that was created for people who had very little. 689 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:24,040 Speaker 3: And I think that's important to bear in mind. Obviously, 690 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,360 Speaker 3: that's what that's in reference to the domestic to the 691 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 3: participation of civilians within the former Yo Slavia. What the 692 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:37,040 Speaker 3: story behind this Italian truck driver is remains to be seen, 693 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 3: but that's where my mind goes when you were talking 694 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:41,520 Speaker 3: about his profile. 695 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there is there are things to be 696 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 4: gained internationally through that same participation in that same project, right, 697 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:53,759 Speaker 4: like not necessarily like from the Serbian project, but like 698 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 4: in terms of one's status in groups, in terms of 699 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 4: like social capital. On the right, I guess we shouldn't 700 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 4: ignore that. Maybe it should just remind us, like especially 701 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 4: these struggles can all seem so disparate, right, but they're 702 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,800 Speaker 4: not like this struggle against the domestic right in Italy. 703 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,360 Speaker 4: It was basically the same thing as the or at 704 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 4: least you know, shared the shared shared an enemy with 705 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:23,279 Speaker 4: the attempts to fight back against this genocidal violence there. 706 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is important to keep in mind 707 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,600 Speaker 1: that I think when we all initially thought of the 708 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: type of person who would do something like this and 709 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 1: pay money for this, we all had an image in 710 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,040 Speaker 1: our head of the type that type, and I do 711 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: think it's very important to then take into account that 712 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: it can also be everyday people who are who can 713 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,879 Speaker 1: be capable and willing to do something like this. Yeah. 714 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,840 Speaker 1: Also another suspect who is not named but is mentioned 715 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,480 Speaker 1: in this article. It's from the Sadayava Times. Just to 716 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: be transparent, it's a banker, so fits a lot better. 717 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,839 Speaker 1: Wors like the image we had in has Yeah. 718 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, something to add about the documentary's context. One of 719 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:18,919 Speaker 3: the people who testified in the documentary is a man 720 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:25,879 Speaker 3: called Eddin Subashiic, who was a former Bosnian intelligence agent. Now, 721 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,320 Speaker 3: the reason why I'm bringing him up is because he 722 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 3: actually says I believe he says it in the documentary, 723 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 3: or he may have said it in a subsequent interview, 724 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 3: or there will check. He has said that himself and 725 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:46,280 Speaker 3: the Bosnian Intelligence Agency first informed the Italian Intelligence Service 726 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,560 Speaker 3: about what they believed what they had evidence was happening 727 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 3: in terms of the Sariisafari. They first informed them in 728 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three, and then a few months later, in 729 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,719 Speaker 3: March ninety nine, the Italian Intelligence Service informed them that 730 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,240 Speaker 3: the matter had been closed. So that's just some interesting 731 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:13,280 Speaker 3: context to sort of think about in terms of perhaps 732 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,720 Speaker 3: some of the skepticism and cynicism that Bosniacs have about 733 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,080 Speaker 3: where this is going and the potential for change that 734 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:22,440 Speaker 3: could come as a result. 735 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 4: Are there projects into solidarity with the people and the 736 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,799 Speaker 4: de tendants of people who survive this you think people 737 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 4: can engage with. 738 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:39,279 Speaker 3: I think that I would encourage people to follow Bosnians 739 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,880 Speaker 3: for Palestine on Instagram because what they are doing is 740 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 3: that they are being very intentional in highlighting the commonalities 741 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:55,440 Speaker 3: between the violence against Palestinians and what Bosniacs in particular 742 00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,239 Speaker 3: endured during the war and genocide. 743 00:50:58,640 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 2: Pretty cool. 744 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would also point. 745 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 3: People towards a very interesting grassroots I don't know exactly 746 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 3: what they are in terms of are they not an MNGO. 747 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,440 Speaker 3: I don't know if they're an association or just a 748 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:22,520 Speaker 3: grassroots anitia to they're called it's a Bosnian title, they're 749 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:28,440 Speaker 3: called Ostra nola o str a new word m u 750 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:33,400 Speaker 3: la and they are based in the public Sabska entity. 751 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 3: But they are a group of young activists from all 752 00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 3: ethnic backgrounds, all of the three major ethnic groups in 753 00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:48,400 Speaker 3: Bosnias that Serb Croat in Bosnia, who take an explicitly 754 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,640 Speaker 3: anti capitalist approach to their work. 755 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:53,520 Speaker 1: So they are very interesting. 756 00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,600 Speaker 3: And the fact that they're doing what they're doing to 757 00:51:55,719 --> 00:52:02,400 Speaker 3: fight against the corruption of the PUBLICUS authorities and ethno 758 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 3: nationalism and they're doing that within the entity, I think 759 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,920 Speaker 3: it is really quite extraordinary. So you can also follow 760 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,320 Speaker 3: them on Instagram and keep up to date with what 761 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 3: they're doing. I mean, they're always there's always either a 762 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:19,520 Speaker 3: march happening in solidarity with Palestine, or there was recently 763 00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 3: a reading of names of all the murdered children of 764 00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 3: Sarah or alongside all of the murdered children of Gaza 765 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,520 Speaker 3: in the recent wave of the genocide in Gaza. So 766 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,319 Speaker 3: there's a lot of very interesting stuff happening which people 767 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,560 Speaker 3: from all around the world can at least follow on 768 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,719 Speaker 3: social media, and if you're in or around Bosnia. Then, 769 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,040 Speaker 3: of course you can meet some of these people in person, 770 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:44,839 Speaker 3: which is great. 771 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes, for closing thoughts. I was splicittly surprised to 772 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,919 Speaker 1: read that they have suspects, so I'll take this within. 773 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,960 Speaker 1: And I also feel I should have seen this earlier. 774 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,320 Speaker 1: But Georgia, I thank you for for coming on and 775 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:06,759 Speaker 1: having a chat with us about horrifying stuff. Thank you 776 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:08,280 Speaker 1: for inviting me our pleasure. 777 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:14,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go pet Spoppy. Yeah a feed way, jackis. 778 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: All right? It could happen Here is a production of 779 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,520 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 780 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,880 Speaker 1: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us 781 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 782 00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,000 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for it 783 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 1: could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.