1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Brading. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is all they called 6 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission Control decads. Most importantly, you are you, 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: want you to know. Today, we are diving into a 10 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: story that may be cursorily familiar to many of our 11 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: fellow listeners. You may have heard in the past. The 12 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: headlines of this story you may have you may have had, 13 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of let's say, what do you think, 14 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: a couple of sentences length of an idea of what's happening. 15 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: Of course, in these chaotic times, we have so many headlines, right, 16 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: We have so many things that we all we all 17 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: keep track of, and many things unfortunately get lost in 18 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: the shuffle. For decades and siodad Warez in Mexico, women 19 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: have been going missing. This is something that some of 20 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: our fellow listeners wrote to us about in our earlier 21 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: episode on the Lost Highway in Canada where multiple members 22 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: of First Nations in the region were being victimized murdered, 23 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: often without any acknowledgement or assistance from law enforcement. Also 24 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: or two as the Highway of Tears, I believe, right, 25 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: isn't that? Yeah? That's yeah, that's correct now and we 26 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: are not diving into this case, this songgoing tragedy alone 27 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: today Today we are joined by the Emmy and Peabody 28 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: Award winning producer and writer and executive producer of one 29 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: of our newest PUER podcast, Forgotten Women of War, as 30 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: we'd like to welcome to the show, ozwal Ocean. Oz, 31 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the air today. 32 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honest 33 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: to be having this conversation with you. Guys. We're very 34 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: much glad that you're here to talk about this, and 35 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: we're also glad that you're making this show that you're making. 36 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: All all three of us have been listening to the 37 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: show again Forgotten Women of War as you can find 38 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: it right now. UM, I think we've all been personally 39 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: very affected by the stories that you're telling and um 40 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: that you're giving voice not only two uh, you know, 41 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: the families and the people who have been affected by this, 42 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: but the reporters who have been working on this for 43 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: so long. You know, before we jump into all of that, 44 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: could you just tell us who you are and why 45 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: you wanted to talk about this story. Yeah, my name 46 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: is oz and Um I've been I've been living in 47 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: the States for ten years on various different immigrant visas 48 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: and now a green card, and and so you know, 49 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: despite being a white man and having all the privilege 50 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: that comes with that, I've had this unusual experience of 51 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: kind of immigration difficulties. And there's something called secondary screening 52 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: where you know, when you arrive in the United States, 53 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: you get taken into this kind of prison esque area 54 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: in the airport and often have to wait for a 55 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: couple of hours well various you know, checks are performed, 56 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: and so you know, despite fitting in and feeling very 57 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: comfortable always in the United States, I've always also had 58 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: this consciousness of what does it mean to be an 59 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: immigrant in the US, what does it mean to live 60 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: in the US without being from the US. And that's 61 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: also something which is part of my family background. My 62 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: grandfather was a refugee from Ukraine to Britain and after 63 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: the Second World War. So I've always been very interested 64 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: in stories about migration and stories about how we define 65 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: us and them, stories about you know, who gets to 66 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: be part of the club and who gets excluded from 67 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: the club. The price of being excluded from the club, 68 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: which you know, goes from lack of economic opportunity unfortunately 69 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: to murder. And so I was just very fascinated by 70 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: this El Paso Juarez border area because you have these 71 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: two big cities, El Paso six hundred thousand huires a 72 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: million in two different countries, separated by a river which 73 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: is now dry and a steel vents. And El Paso, Texas, 74 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: up until the terrible shooting at Walmart, was frequently considered 75 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: one of America's safest cities of its size. And Huirez, 76 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: as people know from movies like Cicario and you know, 77 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: other narcos, the Marcus, Mexico, is one of the world's 78 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: most dangerous and bloody and violent and frightening cities. So 79 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: I was just curious that how does that happen? What? What? 80 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: Why is that? And I first went down to the 81 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: border to El Paso after I read a series of 82 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: stories in The New Yorker called Faces from the Border, 83 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: and one of the articles was was profiling Hispanic border 84 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: patrol agents. And I had never really considered that border 85 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: patrol agents were a majority Hispanic, in fact Hispanic, and so, 86 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, sixteen and there was all of this rhetoric 87 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: coming out of the White House about Mexican bad hombres 88 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: and rapists and and an increasing militarization of the border. 89 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: What I found fascinating was the put on the front 90 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: lines of enforcing it were themselves, usually Hispanic, often with 91 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: family in Huarez, often with cousins or even brothers and 92 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: sisters who didn't speak to them anymore, or turn them 93 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: away from church or whatever it may be because of 94 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: what they were doing. And yet it was a federal 95 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: job and came with perks in an area with you know, 96 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: not as many employment opportunities, say as New York or 97 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 1: Los Angeles or Atlanta. So I was kind of fascinated 98 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: by this paradox. And I went down there to work 99 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: on a documentary series about that, which hasn't hasn't yet 100 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: been released. But but but while I was there, one 101 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: of the producers on the documentary series started telling me 102 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: about this, this this story of the murders of the 103 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: women in Huarez, and I didn't know about it. I mean, 104 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: it was something I couldn't believe he was telling me. 105 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: They were not tens, but hundreds of women who have 106 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: been murdered seemingly in a characteristic way, you know, left 107 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: in strange positions, with strange symbols in some cases left 108 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: on their bodies, that have been going on for decade. 109 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: Aids that various investigations that looked into it, but that 110 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: no one knew for sure what was happening. And I thought, 111 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: what a what a what a germain topic for podcast 112 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: given people people's interested in the true crime genre, but 113 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: also what an interesting way to tell it, to tell 114 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: what is effectively a tale of two cities. Yeah, I 115 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: I massively appreciate the way you phrase it a tale 116 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: of two cities and your reference to the August twenty 117 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: nineteen mass shooting there in El Paso. I believe that's 118 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: when it occurred. One thing that I think will baffle 119 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people. I want to make sure we 120 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: don't bury the lead here, Oz, is what you just 121 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: said about the nature of these murders, because you know, 122 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: we we know that in various various countries in Central 123 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: and South America, there is an ongoing crisis of femicide 124 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: and violence against women. UH. This was true even when 125 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: I was living in Guatemala in the mid two thousand's. 126 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: But what's different here. One of the things that's different 127 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: here is that there appears to be some sort of 128 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: methodical system or application to to these homicides. And you know, 129 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: it's something that I personally was I was not aware 130 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: of the extent of this. I knew that many women 131 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: were being murdered and then later found UH, and I 132 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: knew that there were allegations that the police or law 133 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: enforcement were somewhere on the spectrum between UH incompetent to 134 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: willfully UH negligent. With that in mind, how did you 135 00:08:55,360 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: and your co host UH first start exploring the the 136 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: intersection of law enforcement here, or I should say law 137 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:12,719 Speaker 1: enforcements role. Were was the US side of law enforcement 138 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: interested or involved with any cases here? So that's a 139 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: that's a very interesting question. And my co host who's 140 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: not with us today is Monica Ortiz or Rebey, who 141 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: has been a reporter in El Paso for fifteen years, 142 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: reports the NPR for the BBC, contributes to New York Times, 143 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: and she's been covering the femicides for fifteen years, with 144 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 1: a very strong focus on the experience of the families, 145 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: on the economic realities that make these women vulnerable in 146 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: the first place, and with less of a procedural focus 147 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: on law and order, on law enforcement, on on the who, 148 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: more on the y and the what so Funny enough, 149 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: U S law enforcement have been very interested in what's 150 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: happening to the women in Huirez. I mentioned that that 151 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: quote about the President talking about murderers, rapists, and bad 152 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: hombres coming from Mexico and Central America into the US. 153 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: In fact, the FBI in the nineties were very concerned 154 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: that an American serial killer might be traveling south into 155 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: Mexico to take advantage of a vulnerable, vulnerable population and 156 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: a less strictly enforced laws to basically prey on vulnerable women. 157 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: In Huirez and in fact, Quires has long been a 158 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: place where things that America wants to have access to, 159 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: not have responsibility for, happen. So in the twenties, during Prohibition, 160 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: there was a bourbon distillery in Kentucky that was disassembled 161 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: part by part art and sent by rail to Huirez, 162 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: where it was promptly reassembled started making Kentucky Bourbon again 163 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: and smuggling straight into the United States. And so the 164 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: most famous bar in Huires is called the Kentucky Club 165 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: for that reason. Um so so. And then in the 166 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: sixties and after this a long way to answer your question, 167 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: but in the Second World War there was a lot 168 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: of male labor was in Europe fighting, and so there 169 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: was a shortage of farm labor and industrial labor in 170 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: the United States. And the United States started this thing 171 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: called the Bressero program where they would allow Mexican laborers 172 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: to come into the United States easily work cross back 173 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: and forth. And in the sixties there was this political 174 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: pressure to say, you know, these people are taking our jobs, 175 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: let's send them back. So millions of Mexicans were you know, 176 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: basically sent home, and many of them found themselves in Juarez. 177 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: And so there was both a concern of thinking, well, gosh, 178 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: there are all these people on the border, you know, 179 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 1: who are who don't come from there, but who kind 180 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: of may want to come back to the United States. 181 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: How can we make things slightly more appealing for them 182 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: to stay there? And so basically this duty free zone 183 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: begins in Huirez, where it's much you know, you can 184 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: assemble goods and re export them to the US and 185 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: only pay duty on the value added. And so Huire 186 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: has becomes this manufacturing hub competing with Singapore and Taiwan 187 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: at the time to create cheek consumer goods, which is 188 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: still the engine of the economy. There on behalf of 189 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: American corporations, but using cheap Mexican labor with no labor protections. Um. 190 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: So fast forward to the nineties and you have Robert Wrestler, 191 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: who was the man who invented the Psychological Profiling Department 192 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: of the FBI, on and on whom the show mind 193 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: Hunter is based. And he is one of the people 194 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: credited with coining the term serial killer. And one of 195 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: the things which he pioneered was data driven serial killer apprehensions, 196 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: so looking for commonalities of crime scenes and using those 197 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: commonalities to try and apprehend killers. And what he quickly 198 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: it was called the vis CAP, the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program. 199 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: And what he quickly realized was that if you didn't 200 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: include southern Canada and northern Mexico in vi CAP, you 201 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: could be missing a great deal of what was happening. 202 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: So Wrestler was basically convinced that there were American serial 203 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: at least one American serial killer acting in Juarez, and 204 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 1: so he went down there to try and learn more 205 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: about the patterns behind the crimes, to see if they 206 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: connected to other crimes in the US. Will return and 207 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: dive deeper into the story of the women of war 208 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: as after a word from our sponsor, and we're back. 209 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: So this this timeline here, I think you've done a 210 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: fantastic job of filling in the context, because so often 211 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: in mainstream news reports, someone will, you know, with the 212 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: best of intentions, read about something and not understand that 213 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: there are decades of intervening forces and institutions leading to 214 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: that news story that we read. This leads us to 215 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: one of the other important pieces of context that I 216 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: think we need to establish here, Oz, which is that 217 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: when you and Monica and your team are when you 218 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: were investigating this, when you are when you were chasing 219 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: this story, you were going to areas of Mexico and 220 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: areas of the world that are um well, there's no 221 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: way to say, there's no other way to say it, 222 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: they are dangerous. Did you did you ever feel that 223 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: you or your cohort were um were in danger in 224 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: the course of creating this. I mean it's it's in short, yes, 225 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: I mean in Huires is a dangerous city which has, 226 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: you know, thousands of homicides a year, most of which 227 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: go unpunished. Mexico is the world's most dangerous country for journalists. 228 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: I think they've been almost thirty journalists murdered in the 229 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: last ten years. They're more dangerous than Syria for journalists. 230 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: And so there's one particular area in downtown Juarez where 231 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: many of the women were last seen, called Mina Street, 232 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: which is the central bus exchange in the city. So 233 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: factory employees basically go from their houses in the outskirts 234 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: changed downtown take another bus to work. And that happens 235 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: to be a part of town which is controlled closely 236 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: by a gang called the Badio Azteca, and so journalists 237 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: are really not welcome there. But it's also how Monica 238 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: describes it as ground zero for missing women. And if 239 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: you walk around that area, you'll see missing posters on 240 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: almost every lamp post, and you'll see these black crosses 241 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: painted on pink squares, also on lamp posts, which is 242 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: where the logo of our show Forgotten took its inspiration 243 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: from um And so we're walking around it, and Monica 244 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: said on the way, look, we need a cover story 245 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: because people don't want us to be asking questions about 246 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: what happens to the women here. So we said, oh, 247 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: we we're reporting on the migrant caravan. And people did 248 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: come up and ask us, and at a certain point 249 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: someone sort of made this gun gesture and shouted back 250 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: like that at us. And you know, in most cities, 251 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, that might happen and it's a bit disconcerting, 252 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: or maybe somebody's having a bit of a joke, But 253 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: in a place where you know that most crimes go 254 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: unpunished and the price of life is is very low, 255 00:16:57,920 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: it is more scary. And we went after that to 256 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: meet Sandra Rodriguez Nieto, who's the editor of one of 257 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 1: the editors at the local newspaper, and she said, yeah, 258 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: that place where you guys were, I don't let my 259 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: reporters go there. It's too dangerous. And her colleague. The 260 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: desk outside her office was empty and had been for 261 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: ten years since her colleague, Armando Rodriguez was assassinated while 262 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: he was taking his daughter to school. So I don't 263 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: want to overplay the to date danger that we felt 264 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: ourselves in person, and I think Monica living in the 265 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: area takes more risk than I did. Who can return 266 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: to New York City, but certainly being on the ground 267 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: in Juarez is not a comfortable experience. If you're asking 268 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: these kinds of questions, well, well, um, you know, I 269 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: I think we just have a at least right here 270 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: in the rooms, the people who you're speaking to you 271 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: right now, I have a great respect for you, and 272 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: especially I think for Monica and for Diana, Um, Diana Washington. 273 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: Well does so I want to give our listeners the 274 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: way you do in your show, a specific example of 275 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: what the experience living and working in Ouarez at one 276 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: of these factories was like, and maybe the vulnerability that existed, 277 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: uh for within the lives of a lot of these women, 278 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: simply because of transportation needs um, which you know does 279 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: speak to a larger economic issue. So in in the show, 280 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: in episode one, you talk about Cigarrio, can you tell 281 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: us a little bit about her life, what it was 282 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: like and what um she was doing when she went missing? Yes, 283 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: by all means, so, Ben, you mentioned historical context. The 284 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: factory started in Huires in the in the sixties, but 285 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: it was in the mid nineties after NAFTA was signed, 286 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: that they really boomed and you had just this tremendous 287 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: demand for labor, and a bit like during the Grapes 288 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: of Time. There were recruiters going into the interior and saying, 289 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: come to Huire, is going to be fantastic. There are 290 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: even reports of empty seven four seven's flying to rural 291 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: and mining states in Mexico and coming back full of workers. 292 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: So there was this sense that Juarez was a place 293 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: of opportunity, a place particularly for women to work outside 294 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: of the home, which wasn't always the case in some 295 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: other parts of Mexico. And so this one family, the 296 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: Flores family, they decided to move from El salto in Durango, 297 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: where Jesus, the father was a lumberjack, and he went 298 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: ahead with their son and he wrote a letter home 299 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: to Paula, his wife, and their six daughters, and said, 300 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: you guys that would come. We found work, We found 301 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: what we're looking for is going to be fantastic. And 302 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: Paula replied, well, I've heard they kill women there and 303 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: we have six daughters. Are you sure? And he just 304 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: said yes, is there's no there's no bad people here. 305 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: Everyone's starting out come and join us. So they did 306 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: so they moved there. That the mother and the six daughters, 307 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: including Sagario, joined and they moved to this squatter community 308 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: on the outskirts of Juarez where they have to build 309 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: their own house above their heads, no running water, no electricity, 310 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 1: and to build their house they forage scrap from an 311 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: American dump on the other side of the border. And 312 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: just his image of these, you know, people who moved 313 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: from elsewhere crossing over under where a kind of wink 314 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: and a nod from border patrol to go and get 315 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: our trash to go back and build their houses. You know, 316 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: it is very haunting. There's one story about Sagarrio being 317 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: there at the dump with her mother and an American 318 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: man coming to throw some stuff away and seeing that 319 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: she's cold and offering him his coat, and Sagario said, no, 320 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: I can't take it. I'm embarrassed in her mother says 321 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: to take the coat, so she does. So. Anyway, they 322 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: find what they're looking for. That they find work, and 323 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: they're all working together in Immaculadora making I think refrigerator 324 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: parts in one of these factories. But Cigarrio is under 325 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: eighteen and the factory find out and they say, you 326 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: can't work the night shift with the rest of your family. 327 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: We need used to the day shift. So she has 328 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: to start traveling to work alone all of a sudden, 329 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: and her mother begs her. She says, look, we can 330 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: survive without the money you bring in. Please don't do this, 331 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: and Sigario says, look, how we're living. I need to help. 332 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: And within two months of her shift changing, she's disappeared 333 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: and is found dead in the desert two weeks later. 334 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: With all of the characteristics of the abduction and broad daylight, 335 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: the disappearance and certain types of trauma that are characteristic 336 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: of of tens, if not hundreds of other young women 337 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: who meet the same fate. I want to bring up 338 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: just the idea of a border town and wires in particular. 339 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: Um the cartel, the drug cartels and Oarez had been 340 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: particularly powerful in the nineties, and I think there may 341 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: be a little less so now, but a lot of 342 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: the stories we would hear about Warez we're cartel war murders. 343 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: And can you speak a little bit about that kind 344 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: of proximity to the United States and the relationship between 345 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: the drug trade and your story, if if any exists 346 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: and just kind of you know what you took away 347 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: from that, Yeah, by all means, so, I mean, the 348 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: same reasons why the factories want to be in Huirez 349 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: is why the drug traffickers want to be in the Inhuires. 350 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: It's it's very close to the US. You have millions 351 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: of people crossing the border north, millions of vehicles, tons 352 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: of freight, and so it's it's one of the most 353 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: lucrative drug smuggling corridors in the world. And so what 354 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: happened was in the in the nineties. Up until the nineties, 355 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: there was obviously organized crime in Mexico, but the cartel 356 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: was a relatively stable organization, a bit like the mafia, 357 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: and so although there was organized crime, there wasn't a 358 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: huge amount of violence against members of the community. Like 359 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: once you were under the protection of the cartel, you're 360 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: basically safe. But what happened was the cartel started splintering, 361 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: actually under pressure from the U S who were doing 362 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: various um, you know, raids and arrests and putting pressure 363 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: on the Mexican government. And when the cartel splintered, basically 364 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: a cartel civil war starter. And this was slightly later 365 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: than the nineties. This was the early two thousands, UM. 366 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: And what happened is l Chapos lower cartel were coming 367 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: in from the west because they wanted to take over 368 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: the Howire smuggling corridor from the local from the local cartel, 369 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: and so this began this That's why you see these 370 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: terrible images of huires of you know, men hanging from 371 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: bridges and with slogans written on their dead bodies and 372 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: wearing pig masks. I mean, it was really the most 373 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: disgusting and symbolic violence playing out in Juarez in a 374 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: battle for control, which actually I think probably you can 375 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: draw a line forward from that to Isis and how 376 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: they weaponize the imagery of violence to be part of 377 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: their very effective social media campaign. And so this this 378 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: issue of the women being murdered and the cartel in Juarez, UM, 379 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: it's it's one of the questions of the podcast, and 380 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: it's another reason why the FBI tried to get involved 381 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: to find out what the answers are. But in the 382 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: early nineties or the mid nineties and the early two thousands, 383 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: in a sense, it's not clear at that stage just 384 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: how entrenched the cartel is. So everyone's on the hunt 385 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: for a serial killer. And then as the podcast goes 386 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: on and as history moves forward, it becomes clear that 387 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: it's harder and harder to separate the murders of women 388 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: from the cancer of cartel violence spreading. M hmm. Yeah, 389 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: and that's something that has I think historically bedeviled uh, 390 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: multiple cities in Mexico as well as other countries in 391 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: South America. And you know, a couple of times, a 392 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: couple of times here as already we've used the phrase 393 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: serial killer. And you know, for everyone everyone familiar with that. 394 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: There are some nuts and bolts technicalities, but long story short, 395 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: serial killer is defined by having a type of victim, 396 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: having a method of murder, and having a pattern in 397 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: terms of you know, their timeline, their chronology. One thing 398 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: that one thing that I think stood out to us 399 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: here that that differentiates these these specific comicides from so 400 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: many other tragic comicides in the in the area is 401 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: that there did seem to be there does seem to 402 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: be a a fairly consistent method applied here. Right, there 403 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: are people who are perhaps uh being shot due to 404 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: crime or due to you know, or or being stabbed 405 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: in a fight. But these these are different. Um. One 406 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: thing that stood out to me is early on in 407 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: the story, UM You're you explore how one of the 408 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: victims seemed to have been kept alive for some time 409 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: after being abducted. I believe, I believe investigators were able 410 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 1: to verify that this victim appeared to have been fed, 411 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: so they were around long enough to be fed. And 412 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: then explore a little bit about you explore the method 413 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: of UM possibly finding or or you know, UM determining 414 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: these victims and choosing them. It seems like I think 415 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: one of the most disturbing things is how premeditated. Dare 416 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: I say, how organized it seems? Could could you tell 417 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: us a little bit about what appears to be this 418 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: this method of determination. Yeah, I think you picked up 419 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: on something which which was important for us to communicate 420 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: in the podcast. The reporter who has done the most 421 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: work on this story is called Diana Washington Valdez, and 422 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: she wrote a book called The Killing Field Harvest of Women, 423 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: and her big point was these are not random victims. 424 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: These are not victims of random violence in a violent place. 425 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: These are women who have been specifically selected for certain characteristics. 426 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: Young Paul from immigrant families, often migrant families who disappear, 427 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: usually during the day to and from work, and who 428 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: when they're discovered later either their body left alone or 429 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: in four cases in huire As, there have been mass 430 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: graves of women discovered bare, characteristic types of trauma, often 431 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: a broken neck, often hands bound by shoelaces. And in 432 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: this particular case of Lila Lejandre, you mentioned an autopsy 433 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: that revealed she'd been kept alive and fed for several 434 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: days between disappearing and being murdered. And so this is 435 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: this is there's clearly something going on here. This is 436 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: not random violence, and that's why there were so many 437 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: people like Wrestler from the FBI theorizing and there must 438 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: be a serial killer because as a type, there's a 439 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: method of selection, and one of the most chilling methods 440 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: of selection was this. According to Diana's reporting, computer school 441 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: in downtown huires called Echo, And again this is the 442 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: early two thousand's. These are women who have come with 443 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: their families in search opportunity to a new city and 444 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: there's a computer school which apparently offers the type of 445 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: skills that needed to participate in the new economy and 446 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: perhaps get a better job than a factory job. And 447 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: in Diana's reporting, I think at least ten victims were 448 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: registered at the computer school before they were taken and murdered. 449 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: And the suspicion is that this computer school was basically 450 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: a catalog of victims in Diana's phrase, for somebody on 451 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: the other end who wanted to know, Okay, I want 452 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: a picture of the woman, I want to know where 453 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: they live, I want to know who their family are, 454 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: and then using that to select the most vulnerable because 455 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: these crimes were also sexually motivated for murder. Wow. And 456 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: in episode two of the show, and we don't want 457 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: to you know, obviously give away too much. We want 458 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: to talk about this, but we don't want we want 459 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: you to go to listen to the show. Um. In 460 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: in episode two, there are witnesses who have seen things. 461 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: In a lot of these cases, it appears that there 462 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: are witnesses to seeing something because like we said, this 463 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: is broad daylight. You're in a you know, a large 464 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: metropolitan area where these condempings are occurring, or even if 465 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: it's on the edges of them. Um, it seems like 466 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: there would be more people talking. But it also seems 467 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: like there is a very real danger for these witnesses 468 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: because and correct me if I'm wrong here, But I 469 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: believe it was known that someone or some group we're 470 00:30:54,200 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: posing as agents from the FBI and seeking answers from 471 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: witnesses or getting intel from witnesses, could you tell us 472 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: about that? Yeah, you're right, so so so the women 473 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: often disappear at these moments of maximum vulnerability. So in 474 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: Sagriio Flores case, it was right after she she changed 475 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: shift and was traveling alone to and from work. There's 476 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: another young woman called Claudia Gonzalez who rise for work late, 477 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: and so she isn't allowed into the factory, and that 478 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: very day she disappears and is later found dead. So 479 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: there's this sense that somebody is watching and somebody is 480 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: taking note of vulnerability. But the peculiar thing is then 481 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: there are never any witnesses. But then in two thousand 482 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: and one, this case comes along, and there aren't witnesses 483 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: to the abduction, but witnesses see Lily Alejandra is struggling 484 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: in a car with a man a few days after 485 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: she's taken, and so this is also a break because 486 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: they identify the car. It's a Ford Thunderbird. It's a 487 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: radically common makeup car. But it's the beginning of the 488 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: kind of lead that might normally, you know, resolve these 489 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: types of cases. M the witnesses, Dina Washington Valdez goes 490 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: to interview them, and they say, oh gosh, how funny. 491 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: You're not the first person who's been here to ask 492 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: us questions. The FBI we're here as well, and Diana 493 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: says what it says, Yeah, the FBI. The FBI came 494 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: and that they came to ask us what we've seen 495 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: and what we knew, and so we gave them all 496 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: the information. Dina calls her sources in the in the 497 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: FBI and El Paso, and they never did that. So 498 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: somebody has come to lead their own parallel investigation, either 499 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: to find out what these witnesses no or to intimidate 500 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: them and to make sure that the information they have 501 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: doesn't make it into the right channels. So that that's 502 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: one of the big challenges of this story and why 503 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: so many people have approached it and struggled to get 504 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: to answers, because unlike a normal crime in the US, 505 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: people are often scared but for good reason to come 506 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: forward and share what they And I bring this up, 507 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: Oz because you you spoke with at least one FBI 508 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: agent that I've heard on the podcast, Hardrick Crawford Jr. 509 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: Who who was I believe the FBI special agent in 510 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: charge of El Paso in around that two thousand one 511 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: time and a little bit after. And you know, he 512 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: he says some some things in the show that at 513 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: least that I've heard thus for that are really disturbing, 514 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: specifically talking about how easy it is to kill someone 515 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: and bury them and hide a body in war as 516 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: in the surrounding areas. But you know, just listening to 517 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: him talk about these murders and what's happening and knowing 518 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: that the FBI is involved and does does breach across 519 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: the border there for a lot of different cases, but 520 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: in this one in particular, they were at least doing 521 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: some work on it. I guess my big question to 522 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: you is how much of a hand did the FBI 523 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,719 Speaker 1: have in investigations here if it? I mean, we know 524 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: they had some, but how large of a role the 525 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: FBI play. Well, they're actually three attempts the FBI made 526 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: to involve themselves in solving these crimes. The first time 527 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 1: was in the mid nineties when Robert Wrestler, the serial 528 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: killer expert came down, and he came motivated in large 529 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: part by wanting to get more data for his vight 530 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: CAP Violent Criminal Apprehension program. He came because he wanted 531 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 1: to do a better job of solving crimes in the US. 532 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: Then you had Frank Evans, who ran an operation called 533 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: Operation Plaza Sweep in the late nineties that was a 534 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: full on FBI operation in Mexico to exhume bodies male 535 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: bodies from the desert surrounding Huirez believed to be American 536 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: citizens in order to secure an indict meant against the 537 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: cartel leader Career Fuentes, in order to get an extradition request, 538 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: which they were successful in doing. Evans said at that point, 539 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: we offer the local Hui as police assistance with solving 540 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: the murders of women. But he was very explicit in 541 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: saying that the FBI made that offer because they wanted 542 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: to test out how trustworthy the local police were, and 543 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: it turned out they weren't. Then you have Hardrick Crawford, 544 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: who comes along in the early two thousand's and, unlike 545 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: Wrestler and Evans, who had a clear United States interest 546 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: motivated reason to engage themselves in this case, Hardrick says, 547 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: I had a mission from God, I had a higher 548 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: calling in the US Constitution. I have my own daughters. 549 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: It was my moral duty to find out what was 550 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: happening to these women. And his story is one of 551 00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: the most interesting plotlines in the podcast. We we come 552 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: to it later on UM, but safe to say when 553 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: Laurence Fullspen officials start to follow something that they've views 554 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: being higher than the Constitution, chaos sometimes ensues. Okay, we're 555 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 1: gonna talk more with oz but first a quick word 556 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: from our sponsor. All right, and we're back with Ozwald 557 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: Lotion of Forgotten Women of Warez back to a specific 558 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: point about the story, and this is all none of 559 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: this is spoiler territory. It's all covered pretty quickly and 560 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: the first episode. But I think it's fascinating how little 561 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: was known at the time about the cartels kind of 562 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: oh gosh, trademark, I guess, or signature for a lot 563 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: of this violence that we may be now take for granted, 564 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: but some of the methods of the killings and some 565 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: of the kind of calling cards really did have almost 566 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: occulted kind of you know, feel about them or some 567 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: sort of ritualistic um you know qualities. Can you speak 568 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: to that a little bit about and about how that 569 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: in particular maybe muddy the waters and and made it, 570 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: you know, be a big part of that search for 571 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: a serial killer as opposed to realizing perhaps that this 572 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,800 Speaker 1: might be something else. Yeah, it's a it's a great question. 573 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: I mean, bear in mind, you know, these crimes in 574 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: the nineties, this is not long after the Satanic panic 575 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: in the US, and so, you know, I think there's 576 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: a tendency in any case to read on to unsolved 577 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,800 Speaker 1: murders and horrific murders some kind of satanic or ritual element. 578 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: But in fact, in the case of these murders, um, 579 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: it does seem like they were ritualized. There was strange 580 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: marks left on the bodies of the victims. There was 581 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: this use of shoe laces to bind the risks, and 582 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: the way in which the women's bodies were left was 583 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: not random. They were arranged in certain dehumanizing ways. And 584 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: so one of the early hypotheses was indeed that there 585 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,800 Speaker 1: was some kind of satanic or ritual cult killing these women. 586 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: And one of the phenomena in in Mexico has been 587 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: the rise of this interest in Santa the Holy Death, 588 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: which is a sort of religion esque which sort of 589 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: worships death, and people were wondering, you know, is it 590 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: possible these are human sacrifices um that most of our 591 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: sources dismissed fairly quickly. But the idea of ritual killings, 592 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: ritual killings for the purposes of hazing or bonding, or 593 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: creating loyalty or creating codes of silence, that was considered 594 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: to be a much more really stick avenue of investigation. 595 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: And in fact, when Wrestler was there from the FBI, 596 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 1: he was there with another forensic criminal criminologists called Candascropic, 597 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: and they came on one of these crime scenes with 598 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: this woman left in an utterly deshumanizing way, and she 599 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: turned to restaurant and said, have you ever seen anything 600 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: like this in your career? And he said no. And 601 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 1: what they started to speculate was that was that these 602 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: women were being sacrificed by some kind of group in 603 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 1: order to achieve purposes, which at the time weren't clear 604 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: because there there were things like markings, triangles, and various 605 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: symbols carved into the bodies that have this, you know, 606 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: feel of some sort of ritual or some sort of 607 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 1: blood sacrifice or or or what have you. And again 608 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: don't want to get into spoiler territories about the story, 609 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: but when did it become clear that it was something different, 610 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: or at least when you know, in your coverage of 611 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: the story, in your following these folks that have lived this, 612 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: uh literally on the ground and in research and reporting 613 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: for years, when did it be clear to you that 614 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: what was really going on or or that maybe that 615 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: was barking up the wrong tree a little bit. Well, so, 616 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: I think it's the mass graves that really clarify for 617 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: people what's going on, because you know, young women are 618 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: going missing apparently following a pattern being found in the 619 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: desert on the outskirts of Wuirez with characteristic trauma. But 620 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: two thousand and one and two thousand and twelve, these 621 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,359 Speaker 1: mass graves of women who have been killed in the 622 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: same way are discovered, and at that point it becomes 623 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: impossible for anybody to argue that these crimes are connected. 624 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: These are not victims of random violence. And each of 625 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: these times there's been a great hope that okay, the 626 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: authorities have to acknowledge there's something going on here which 627 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: is connected, and a belief in the community that although 628 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: this is terrible, we must have hit rock bottom after this, 629 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: no more, this can't continue. We will find the real cults. 630 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: And indeed, after each of the mass graves were discovered, 631 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: somebody took the fall in. It was an Egyptian chemist 632 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 1: called Abdul Latif Sharif. Sharif who had self deported from 633 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 1: the United States under threat of being actually deported to Egypt, 634 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: and it decided to go and live in Huarez where 635 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: he could continue working for his US employer but not 636 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: be subject to the U S law. And so he 637 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: was a big partier in downtown Huirez, and he had 638 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,800 Speaker 1: these rape charges against him in the US. When the 639 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,919 Speaker 1: first mass grave of women is discovered, he's taken in 640 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: and declared as the serial killer. There's one problem in 641 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,280 Speaker 1: another mass grave of women is discovered, so as briefly 642 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: a bit of a concern for the authority, well, how 643 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: do we explain this? And what they come up with 644 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 1: is that a gang called the Rebels is being paid 645 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: by Sharif to murder women on his behalf in order 646 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: to attest his innocence, and that he's demanding their underwear 647 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,760 Speaker 1: as evidence from his jail e'll sell. This sounds pretty 648 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,280 Speaker 1: preposterous and lurid, but I mean this was the official line. 649 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: Two thousand and one comes along, another mass grave is discovered. 650 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: A journalist asked the Attorney General at a press conference, 651 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: is it possible Sharif is behind these crimes as well? 652 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: And the Attorney General says, is something we're looking into. 653 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 1: That's not the line they end up going with. In fact, 654 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: two bus drivers take the full this time. It turns 655 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,959 Speaker 1: out they've been tortured with cattle prods, suffocation, beatings into 656 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: confessing to the crimes. And it's actually this scapegoating, this 657 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: third scapegoating that sets off this process where a lawyer 658 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 1: takes on their case and through his investigation we start 659 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: to get some answers about what's really happening. But it 660 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: leaves another trail of death in its wake, and not 661 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 1: just a women of men as well. And while we 662 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: are on the subject of math graves, one very important 663 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: and I think profoundly disturbing thing here is if we 664 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 1: do not ultimately know the group or the people responsible 665 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: for these murders, and we do not ultimately know their motive, 666 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: that it means that we also do not ultimately know 667 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: how many victims exist, and the pattern that you're describing 668 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: of finding mass graves and then you know this rush 669 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: to find some I hesitate to say necessarily scapegoat because 670 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:50,359 Speaker 1: Abdul Latif Sharif was a horrible person, clearly a horrible person. Um, 671 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: but there's there's this pattern on law enforcements. Part of Okay, 672 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: we found a grave, let's let's find a way to 673 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: explain it. Oh, we found another grave. Let's find a 674 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: way to explain it. And what I think is, you know, 675 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: most troubling here and something that I feel obligated to 676 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: ask you about, is is it possible that there are 677 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 1: more mass grave sites out there that have yet to 678 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: be discovered? I mean, is that is that like within 679 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 1: the realm of probability? Is it within the realm of plausibility? 680 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: Or where where does this leave us? I mean to 681 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 1: the early part of your question about culpability. Actually, we 682 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: there is a witness to these murders who tells an 683 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: American journalist called Alfredo Corricillo what he's seen, why these 684 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: women are being killed, and so we do get to 685 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: that reveal in the podcast, and that kind of sets 686 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,879 Speaker 1: off the second half of the podcast. So so there 687 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 1: are some answers, but they're not answers which the officials 688 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: ever take seriously in whuareas. And so your question is 689 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: a very good one. Are there more mass graves in 690 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,360 Speaker 1: the desert? Very likely? Yes, certainly, many many more bodies 691 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: that were never found. And one of the most interesting 692 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: things with for me about this reporting slightly adjacent to 693 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: them to the story in two thousand and one, after 694 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: the mass grave is discovered, the authorities fail to identify 695 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 1: the victims before they declare the case is closed, and 696 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: so the families never have closure. They never really believe, Okay, 697 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: was this my daughter? Was this not my daughter? So 698 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: Grio Flores, who we mentioned, she gets exhumed three times 699 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 1: because there's no clarity ever for the family on whether 700 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: it's her. Once the grave next to her is incorrectly 701 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,160 Speaker 1: exhumed and a man's body is brought in for analysis. 702 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a level of either incompetence or 703 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: corruption which is quite quite staggering. So a team called 704 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,880 Speaker 1: the Argentine Forensic Anthropology Team came in two thousand and 705 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,879 Speaker 1: one at the request of various activists. They have experienced 706 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,800 Speaker 1: and identifying bodies from the end of the regime and 707 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,320 Speaker 1: Argentina when there were many mass graves and many families 708 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: looking for answers, and this woman, Mercedes Doretti, who's a 709 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,280 Speaker 1: McArthur Genius grant holder, basically founded this team of anthropologists 710 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,800 Speaker 1: to identify bodies. They go to Huires in two thousand 711 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: and one to try and finally, using DNA techniques, answer 712 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: who these eight women definitively in this grave are, and 713 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: as part of their work they start analyzing other bodies. 714 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: And what Mercedes Diretti told me was this is the 715 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 1: first time in her career that she would analyze bodies 716 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: and there would be no matches from the local area 717 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,319 Speaker 1: of people who had missing persons in their family, so 718 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: she had to in the end often that the missing 719 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:55,439 Speaker 1: person would be found in Huire as the body would 720 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 1: be found in Quires, but the family would be eight 721 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: hundred miles away because the person was a migrant. And 722 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: of course in the early two thousands and Wires this 723 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: was this was the first time she'd ever seen that 724 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,359 Speaker 1: in her career, and now it's common their bodies all 725 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: along the US Mexico border from Central America belonging to 726 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: people from Central America, other places in the world. Whose 727 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 1: whose family, maybe thousands of miles away. But this that 728 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 1: the technique of identifying bodies and matching them to people 729 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 1: a long way away began in Wuires because there was 730 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 1: so much migrant labor into the factory jobs. And so 731 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: that really has foreshadowed was happening now on the border 732 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,080 Speaker 1: with all of these tragic deaths and families who don't 733 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: get closure, who may live thousands of miles away. You know, 734 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 1: we're talking about the lives of these women. A lot 735 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: of it is gruesome end that their lives met. But 736 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,440 Speaker 1: this show, I think is pretty firmly set on the 737 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 1: life lived by these women and what they were going 738 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:02,760 Speaker 1: to to survive for themselves and their families. And in 739 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: in an early episode in the show, there's a moment 740 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 1: where I believe it's Cigarria's mother is talking about when 741 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: her daughter came home excited to tell her mom that 742 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,440 Speaker 1: the company has taken out life insurance on her and 743 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,399 Speaker 1: if anything happens to her, the family, you, mom will 744 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,719 Speaker 1: will get money. The family will get a lot of 745 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:30,840 Speaker 1: money if something happens to me. And uh, you know, 746 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 1: she's she and her father and her other siblings are 747 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: all working in this factory and they're living in this 748 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,640 Speaker 1: small town where their home was, you know, originally built 749 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 1: by the trash, like you said, from across the border. Um, 750 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: and I believe it is five family members working in 751 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:55,760 Speaker 1: in this factory at that point. Just imagining that five 752 00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: of your family members could be working a factory and 753 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,320 Speaker 1: you can still barely afford to live while you're making 754 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 1: goods that are going to be shipped across the border. 755 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,280 Speaker 1: It's a tough thing for me personally too to understand. 756 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 1: Because of my privileged life that I live here in 757 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,320 Speaker 1: the United States, and because of who I am and 758 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:20,919 Speaker 1: what I look like. I wonder if these families have 759 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 1: you know, they obviously haven't been able to find full 760 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: closure because of everything you just talked about, Oz, but 761 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if they're being taken care of in any 762 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,239 Speaker 1: way by these companies that you know, maybe a lot 763 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 1: of these victims were UM a part of or by 764 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 1: some other groups. Like what are were there? What are 765 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,879 Speaker 1: their lives like now? The families who have had such 766 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,640 Speaker 1: loss in their lives. I'm sorry to say that they're difficult. 767 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 1: They're very difficult. Often that that often the mothers become 768 00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:00,920 Speaker 1: tireless advocates for for justice as an amazing energy and 769 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: passion in the protest movement in whuires led by mothers 770 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,840 Speaker 1: and and and indeed, you know those demands for justice, 771 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: although they haven't always answered individual questions, there is some 772 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 1: sense of the power of collective action and and and 773 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,360 Speaker 1: conditions in in the factories and in those communities have 774 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 1: improved under pressure from the mother's and Paula Flora's Sagaria's 775 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,840 Speaker 1: mother founded a kindergarten in their neighborhood so that the 776 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,080 Speaker 1: local children could get more of an education. Is called 777 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,879 Speaker 1: the Cigari of Flora's Kindergarten. And so she told us, 778 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,239 Speaker 1: it makes me happy that every child in the neighborhood 779 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:44,040 Speaker 1: graduates with my daughter's name on their diploma. And it's 780 00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 1: tempting to find a lot of solace in you know, 781 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,239 Speaker 1: the individuals struggle against their circumstances. But the reality is 782 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: the conditions are very poor. They're still um These factories, 783 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,359 Speaker 1: which manufactured goods that we will use, continue to pay 784 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 1: people less than ten dollars a day, when a similar 785 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,600 Speaker 1: job on the two miles away on the other side 786 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,080 Speaker 1: of the border would bring in eight ten dollars an hour, 787 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,920 Speaker 1: and that in itself creates the conditions of vulnerability and violence, 788 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 1: and in fact, during the COVID crisis, the American ambassador 789 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:20,200 Speaker 1: put great pressure on Mexico not to close the factories 790 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,440 Speaker 1: the Mecula Doras because they're creating things like blood, blood 791 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 1: pressure cuffs and medical gloves and supplies. We needed to 792 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,560 Speaker 1: keep our citizens safe during COVID. And of course they 793 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,480 Speaker 1: were outbreaks and deaths which ravaged these factories, but the 794 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,560 Speaker 1: workers were being told they have to keep coming to work. 795 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:42,600 Speaker 1: And so people often say, other murders still going And 796 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,799 Speaker 1: the answer is, well, you know, the last mass grave 797 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,799 Speaker 1: of women was discovered in twelve, which is eight years ago. 798 00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,520 Speaker 1: But that the people who work in these factories remain 799 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,319 Speaker 1: very vulnerable and the conditions haven't improved very much, and 800 00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 1: in fact that there's a second generation of women who 801 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 1: were born in quires and who are perhaps more politely 802 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,399 Speaker 1: conscious than their parents were. There's one protest group called 803 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,560 Speaker 1: the Daughters of the Makila Workers. And one of the 804 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,440 Speaker 1: young women who was part of that protest group and 805 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,239 Speaker 1: a local artist called Isabel cabaniest della Torre. She was 806 00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:21,279 Speaker 1: cycling through downtown Huirez in January and she was shot 807 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,000 Speaker 1: in the head and her murder is unsolved. And so 808 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:31,719 Speaker 1: this place of vulnerability and gender violence and you know, 809 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,440 Speaker 1: a locust really a rapacious consumption. I mean refrigerator parts, 810 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,400 Speaker 1: steering wheels, you know, medical gloves, their manufacturing, huires, and 811 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: of course it's where cocaine and other drugs come through. 812 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: So unfortunately our consumption habits have a price, and often 813 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,400 Speaker 1: it's thousands of miles away. But what what makes wires 814 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,719 Speaker 1: so arresting as a place is that you can see 815 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,439 Speaker 1: it from the United States. You can see the consequences 816 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: of certain choices we ache playing out within sight of 817 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,680 Speaker 1: where you stand. And that's really coming back to the 818 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: beginning of your question about why I got interested in 819 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,160 Speaker 1: this story. I think it's a place where you can 820 00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:14,840 Speaker 1: understand the consequences of of institutions and choices and borders 821 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,759 Speaker 1: in a very very, very very immediate way. No, it's 822 00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,840 Speaker 1: it's a really really good point because people think about, oh, 823 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,360 Speaker 1: if I choose to do cocaine, that's a personal choice. 824 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,959 Speaker 1: If I choose to contribute to capitalism, that's a personal choice, 825 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,319 Speaker 1: and that's not affecting anybody but me. It's it's something 826 00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,759 Speaker 1: that I'm doing. But no, it shows there are ripple 827 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,480 Speaker 1: effects to the choices that we make, and this is 828 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,759 Speaker 1: part of that. And I think you do a fantastic 829 00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 1: job of I mean, it's not like a very it's 830 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:43,919 Speaker 1: not a political show, but it is a show about 831 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,120 Speaker 1: experience and about the lives of the folks that are 832 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 1: caught up in these systems. And I think that's what 833 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,080 Speaker 1: makes it all the more powerful. Yeah, definitely, But but 834 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:53,920 Speaker 1: I also I mean as as a big you know, 835 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,120 Speaker 1: ethical consumerism movement in the US, and I think that's 836 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: very valuable and important, But really these are like systems 837 00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:06,120 Speaker 1: and policy problems, not individual choice problems. I mean, of 838 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:07,960 Speaker 1: course we can all be more ethical in our actions, 839 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:12,080 Speaker 1: but but a lot of responsibility for you know, cartel violence, 840 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,240 Speaker 1: that drug problems in in in in Latin America, working 841 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,000 Speaker 1: conditions in wuires that they come from very conscious policy decisions, 842 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,320 Speaker 1: and one of them interesting and we we had a 843 00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,719 Speaker 1: very interesting interview with a historian called Oscar Martinez who said, 844 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,440 Speaker 1: in the sixties, and you know, these there were factories 845 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,480 Speaker 1: in Singapore and Taiwan doing the same thing which happens 846 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:36,040 Speaker 1: in Huarez. But the wage increases in those places has 847 00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 1: been multiples in huire as they say say the same 848 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,320 Speaker 1: why is that was because Mexico is close to the 849 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,160 Speaker 1: United States, so the United States can enforce intellectual property 850 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,200 Speaker 1: and patent infringement is much more effectively. And so the 851 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,919 Speaker 1: wealth creation of you know, basically what we always get 852 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,920 Speaker 1: angry for China of doing is basically manufacturing and then 853 00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,520 Speaker 1: copying the I p that never happened in Mexico. So 854 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,200 Speaker 1: this is kind of poverty trapped comes with proximity, which 855 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,960 Speaker 1: is very interesting as well. Yeah, and this is I mean, 856 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:10,920 Speaker 1: at this point we're also talking about um, the power 857 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,600 Speaker 1: of systems, right, the power of institutions, UM, which which 858 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:21,160 Speaker 1: affects us profoundly UM on. One thing that I don't 859 00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:28,000 Speaker 1: want to lose in our conversation here is the the 860 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:34,400 Speaker 1: concept of the news cycle. To Matt, I believe earlier 861 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,920 Speaker 1: you would asked the question, UM, at some point about 862 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,920 Speaker 1: what happens to these to the survivors, right, the people 863 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:47,080 Speaker 1: left behind after these unspeakable tragedies, which I don't think 864 00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:52,000 Speaker 1: it's hyperbolic to call them that. After these tragedies, what 865 00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 1: happens to the people who are still living their lives? 866 00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,920 Speaker 1: You know, after the news through and the and the 867 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:05,640 Speaker 1: cameras cuts and the van drives away to the next story. 868 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:11,960 Speaker 1: That's That's something that I think is um is profound 869 00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:19,239 Speaker 1: and is tremendously important us because we're talking a lot 870 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:24,080 Speaker 1: about things that have developed in the nineteen nineties, in 871 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:30,640 Speaker 1: the early two thousands. UM right now as as um as. 872 00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 1: I'm sure you're aware, many of our listeners may not 873 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,759 Speaker 1: be aware. Uh, war as murders and war az just 874 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: overall are up forty two percent in March over May. 875 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 1: Uh without you know, I know we're interviewing you in 876 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,279 Speaker 1: the in the midst of forgotten women of war as 877 00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,000 Speaker 1: coming out and coming to the public eye. But could 878 00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,200 Speaker 1: or the public ear I should say, I guess, but 879 00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:04,880 Speaker 1: could you tell a little bit about the the current 880 00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:10,040 Speaker 1: state of war as as as applied to homicides, as 881 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,920 Speaker 1: applied to this case. I mean, what what happened after 882 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:19,840 Speaker 1: all of the investigations over the nineties and the two thousand's. Well, 883 00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:24,000 Speaker 1: so when Monica began reporting in Juarez, she grew up 884 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 1: in El Paso, but she began reporting in Juarez on 885 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,080 Speaker 1: the drug war in two thousand and eight. Uh, and 886 00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:33,240 Speaker 1: this was that period when the Sinaloa cartel were trying 887 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: to move in on Huirez and there was basically a 888 00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:39,240 Speaker 1: civil war and people were being butchered and left in 889 00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,960 Speaker 1: the most disgusting ways. Um And it was in that 890 00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,680 Speaker 1: context that Monica cut her teeth as a reporter in Huirez, 891 00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,560 Speaker 1: and the reporter introduced me to Monica is called Angela Cochega, 892 00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,160 Speaker 1: and she told me very casually, she would drive out 893 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,200 Speaker 1: over the border to do a day of reporting, come 894 00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 1: back to the US, arrive at Starbucks, take off her 895 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,040 Speaker 1: shoes and abandon them because they were so soaked in blood. 896 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,600 Speaker 1: And this idea of a war zone in your backyard 897 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 1: is just very, very hard to get your head around. 898 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:09,000 Speaker 1: So two thousand and eight, two thousand and eleven, the 899 00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,320 Speaker 1: drug violence was at absolute height, and homicides were you know, 900 00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:16,240 Speaker 1: in the three and a half thousand a year, you 901 00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:20,160 Speaker 1: know area. After two thousand and eleven, things got a 902 00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,760 Speaker 1: bit quieter. In two thousand and sixteen, there was the 903 00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:28,440 Speaker 1: Choires Tourist Board. We're trying to sort of encourage travel 904 00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,920 Speaker 1: to Wires again because it was historically a place where Americans, 905 00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,760 Speaker 1: much like Havanna and Cuba, went to go and have fun, 906 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,400 Speaker 1: to go and drink and bring when they're underage, and 907 00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,080 Speaker 1: you know, gamble and maybe you know all the things 908 00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:43,600 Speaker 1: which are worse than that as well, if the sex 909 00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:48,320 Speaker 1: trade um. But but Recquires was kind of rebuilding its 910 00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,600 Speaker 1: reputation and and and and and and it's tourism industry 911 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:59,920 Speaker 1: in Unfortunately, the homicide rate is starting to approach, you know, 912 00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,800 Speaker 1: the three thousand number again based on monthly averages of 913 00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:08,160 Speaker 1: two and fifty people being murdered now. And that's really 914 00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:14,280 Speaker 1: really frightening because it basically indicates that it's happening again. 915 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,360 Speaker 1: Why it's happening is not clear, but but generally when 916 00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,320 Speaker 1: they're when their power shifts in the cartels, for example, 917 00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,400 Speaker 1: or twenty seventeen, L Chapo gets extradited to the US 918 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:28,000 Speaker 1: and is now in a d X Florence Supermax in Colorado. 919 00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,000 Speaker 1: He was the most powerful cartel leader in Mexico and 920 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,160 Speaker 1: now he's gone. And similar to what happened after the 921 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,920 Speaker 1: Iraq War with the formation of ISIS or when you 922 00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:43,800 Speaker 1: when you disturb the leadership of these organizations, it comes 923 00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,760 Speaker 1: with splinter groups, and splinter groups bring violence. And I 924 00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,160 Speaker 1: think right now there is a there is a civil 925 00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,720 Speaker 1: war Inquirers, which it doesn't have the same spectacular violence 926 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,640 Speaker 1: as the two thousand and eight two eleven period, but 927 00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:59,320 Speaker 1: the numbers are are approaching the same height and and 928 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,400 Speaker 1: that's bad news for all vulnerable people. Monica said that 929 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,960 Speaker 1: the last mass grave was discovered in twelve and she 930 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if if another one was discovered soon. 931 01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:16,000 Speaker 1: And this is the again, as you said, Odds, this 932 01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,600 Speaker 1: is the modern day. We are recording this episode for 933 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,800 Speaker 1: Peeple and the Curtain here, folks. We're recording this episode 934 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:32,280 Speaker 1: on June twelve OZ. At this point, I believe that 935 01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,920 Speaker 1: the best way for our listeners to understand more of 936 01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:41,560 Speaker 1: this story, to learn more about it, is too honestly, 937 01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,880 Speaker 1: to stop our podcasts right now and to head over 938 01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:48,880 Speaker 1: to whatever their podcast platform of choice is and check 939 01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:54,320 Speaker 1: out Forgotten Women of Warez, which is available now. We 940 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,040 Speaker 1: want to thank you profoundly for being so generous with 941 01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,120 Speaker 1: your time on our show here, but more importantly, much 942 01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,960 Speaker 1: more importantly for the time that you and Monica have 943 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:12,080 Speaker 1: dedicated to bringing to shedding light on this Because it's 944 01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:16,760 Speaker 1: um I am attempting not to be emotional about this, 945 01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:24,520 Speaker 1: but it is it is reprehensible that these that this is, 946 01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:27,080 Speaker 1: this is occurring. As you said, you know, at the 947 01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:31,280 Speaker 1: very beginning, you said a tale of two cities. It's 948 01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:38,120 Speaker 1: it's offensive that this sort of mass homicide continued, that 949 01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,760 Speaker 1: it continues today, that it seems like the systems that 950 01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:48,880 Speaker 1: were created two vouchsafe people are broken, have failed. And 951 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:55,360 Speaker 1: on my end, I'm wondering what would you if you 952 01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:01,920 Speaker 1: would recommend next steps? If you if you would um 953 01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:06,040 Speaker 1: if you, for instance, were able to dictate to law 954 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:12,600 Speaker 1: enforcement in the community, what they should be doing about this, 955 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:20,360 Speaker 1: about this ongoing horrific activity, what what would you say? Well, first, 956 01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:22,560 Speaker 1: thanks for your kind words about our time, and I 957 01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 1: would like to emphasize my role in Forgotten was to 958 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:31,760 Speaker 1: come in as the naive outsider and ask, you know, 959 01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:36,560 Speaker 1: framing questions and frankly obvious questions. You know, why is 960 01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,680 Speaker 1: this happening? What's going on? And Monico is the person 961 01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,880 Speaker 1: who's devoted years of her life and her career and 962 01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:47,120 Speaker 1: taken risks that I haven't, as our other sources did, 963 01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,480 Speaker 1: in particular Dina Washington Valdez. And so what makes me 964 01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:55,560 Speaker 1: proudest about this project is to have used it as 965 01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:59,000 Speaker 1: a as a frame for their stories and they're reporting 966 01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:03,360 Speaker 1: to to reach a wide audience. And so that that's been. That, 967 01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,960 Speaker 1: that's been, you know, something I'm personally proud of. But 968 01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,000 Speaker 1: to your second question about what what can we do? 969 01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean, there's an American journalists who enter Huires in 970 01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:16,520 Speaker 1: the nineties called Chuck Bowden, who called Huires a laboratory 971 01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:20,160 Speaker 1: of our future and basically taking the women's murders as 972 01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:25,360 Speaker 1: starting points. So, well, what happens when you basically create 973 01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:30,760 Speaker 1: a permanent under class. What happens when law enforcement aren't 974 01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:34,360 Speaker 1: trusted by the community, What happens when there's state sponsored 975 01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,040 Speaker 1: violence against people who seek the truth? What happens when 976 01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:42,040 Speaker 1: journalists gets murdered? What happens when the imperatives of profit 977 01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:46,200 Speaker 1: are put above the imperatives of human life. And that's 978 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,160 Speaker 1: not a conversation which is unique to Huaras anymore. That's 979 01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,520 Speaker 1: a conversation we're having right now at the United States. 980 01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,480 Speaker 1: And and Sandra Rodriguez Nieto, one of the editors that Ldarihuires, said, 981 01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:00,400 Speaker 1: Huire wasn't always like this, Like it's always been a 982 01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:02,840 Speaker 1: tough city. It's always been a gritty border city. But 983 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:08,320 Speaker 1: thousands of unsolved murders every year, you know, institutions a 984 01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:12,800 Speaker 1: fragile and and and and be careful in the US, 985 01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:17,600 Speaker 1: be careful, don't fall asleep, because it can happen faster 986 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:21,040 Speaker 1: than you think. And so you know, I don't want 987 01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,840 Speaker 1: to over emphasize the connection of this podcast to what's 988 01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,400 Speaker 1: happening with the protest movement in the United States right now. 989 01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:31,960 Speaker 1: But when you have injustice ongoing injustice, when you have 990 01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:36,160 Speaker 1: lack of trust between law enforcement and citizens, and when 991 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,160 Speaker 1: you have a tax on independent judiciary and the media, 992 01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,000 Speaker 1: you can find yourself in a pretty hellish situation pretty quickly. 993 01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:47,400 Speaker 1: Thank you for that, and then you thank you for 994 01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:49,520 Speaker 1: making the show with these amazing women who have been 995 01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:53,800 Speaker 1: working on this story for so long. Um, just prepare 996 01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,200 Speaker 1: yourself when you're listening to the show, because because they 997 01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:00,760 Speaker 1: are tragic stories, but they are very important to UH 998 01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:07,560 Speaker 1: to hear. Agreed on. This concludes today's episode, But this 999 01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:10,960 Speaker 1: does not conclude our show, and it does not conclude 1000 01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:16,400 Speaker 1: the story of the podcast Forgotten Women of War. As 1001 01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:22,080 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you, We want your perspective. 1002 01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,520 Speaker 1: As we often say, you are the most important part 1003 01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:29,600 Speaker 1: of this show. Specifically, you so right to us. You 1004 01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:32,160 Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook, you can find us on 1005 01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:36,520 Speaker 1: Twitter and find us on Instagram were frankly like many 1006 01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:41,280 Speaker 1: people in too many places on the internet nowadays. Uh 1007 01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:46,800 Speaker 1: but before you do any of that, check out this podcast. 1008 01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:50,960 Speaker 1: It's available now wherever you find your favorite shows. As 1009 01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:55,600 Speaker 1: we say, it's free to listen to. And this is 1010 01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,800 Speaker 1: an important story that is has not and is not 1011 01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:09,479 Speaker 1: UM receiving the attention and the analysis it deserves. And 1012 01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,320 Speaker 1: while you were listening to that, if you have any thoughts, 1013 01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:16,960 Speaker 1: if you have feedback, you want to talk to us, 1014 01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,480 Speaker 1: but you hate social media. We have all people get it. 1015 01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,560 Speaker 1: You can you can contact us a number of other ways. 1016 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,480 Speaker 1: We have a phone number. Yes, you can give us 1017 01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,920 Speaker 1: a call at one eight three three st d w 1018 01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,520 Speaker 1: y t K, where you can leave messages for us 1019 01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,040 Speaker 1: in audio form in three minute increments. I know it's 1020 01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:38,280 Speaker 1: not ideal, but hey, if you need more time than that, 1021 01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:40,560 Speaker 1: you just call back and then we'll stitch them together 1022 01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:45,000 Speaker 1: for when we inevitably do another listener male episode where 1023 01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:49,080 Speaker 1: we field questions from you. UM also might be one 1024 01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:52,680 Speaker 1: of the lucky ones that gets a true callback from 1025 01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:56,760 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick himself. I also would like to start being 1026 01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:59,920 Speaker 1: a little more conscientious about participating that too. But man 1027 01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:04,200 Speaker 1: that talk about the golden ticket of of conspiracy. Listener 1028 01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:06,600 Speaker 1: mails that when you get that call from Matt, I 1029 01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:09,200 Speaker 1: really wish you all the best of luck because he 1030 01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:10,840 Speaker 1: will definitely do it. If you don't want to do 1031 01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:12,480 Speaker 1: any of that stuff, we still have one of those 1032 01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:16,760 Speaker 1: old fashioned emails. You can email us. We are conspiracy 1033 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:38,280 Speaker 1: at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want 1034 01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:40,640 Speaker 1: you to know is a production of I heart Radio. 1035 01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 1036 01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:46,200 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1037 01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:47,040 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.