1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: Rob do it. What's what's that sound? Is that the 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: sound of us digging down a historical rabbit hole that 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: you got interested in? What what are we doing today? Oh? 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: In this episode, we're going to talk about the fall 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: of Valerian, Emperor Valerian of Rome. Uh, this is this is, 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: this is gonna be I think a fun one, even 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: though this is this is certainly gonna be more of 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: a historical direction, not the first time that we've we 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: we've gone down a historical rabbit hole, as you say, 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: But I think, as always it's important to remember in 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: this context, you know what histories are. It's kind of 15 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: like you have you have, you know, histories within with 16 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: capital aging, histories with the lower case h um. Histories 17 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: in general, written his stories, oral histories, past down histories, 18 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: resurrected histories are accounts of the past that very often 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: have viewpoints, biases, agendas. They're constructed from memories, evidence, and 20 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: pre existing accounts, all of which are subject to error. 21 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: In short, interest in history is not only a matter 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: of what happened, but also why did this version of 23 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: what happened happen? Why is this the account that was 24 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: written down or told to others? And um, these are 25 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: all interesting questions to ask about the fall of Emperor Valerian, 26 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: questions that still remain today about what actually happened to him. 27 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: Also how did the defeat go down? But but mostly 28 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: what was his ultimate fate? Ah. So here you're interested 29 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: not only in a question of history, as in what's 30 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: the best we can figure out what happened in the past, 31 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: but a question of historiography. Why did certain historians of 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: the past write about history in a certain way? Yeah? 33 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: And I think ultimately this is a story that is 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: interesting on both counts because it's also fascinating to to 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: look at the various histories and piece together in your 36 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: mind this story of just countless on the in the 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: Roman imperial side, you know, just constant overthrow and backstabbing. Uh. 38 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: This uh, this this era of chaos that sees just 39 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: emperor after emperor fall, to all of the infighting in 40 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: Rome as well as to some of the uh, the 41 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 1: fighting on the borders of the Roman Empire, as well, 42 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: and yeah, then there's also this this question of of well, 43 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: what are these different stories regarding the fate of Valerian 44 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: and what do they mean and how are we supposed 45 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: to interpret them, uh from our modern standpoint. So I'm 46 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: just curious, how did you get interested in this, in particular, 47 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: this question about what happened to Emperor Valerian. I think 48 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: this is one of those kind of just tangent steering 49 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: research where I just I was working on something else 50 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: and then I was curious. I was looking into maybe 51 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: various um emperors and the fall of various emperors and uh, 52 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: and then I started I think I initially just clicked 53 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: on on just like a basic page about Valerian and uh, 54 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, and read some some grizzly details about what 55 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: might have happened to him, and that got me thinking, 56 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: It's like, well, this sounds this is really severe. You know, 57 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,959 Speaker 1: what were the ramifications of this? And then I started 58 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: digging in a little deeper classic rabbit hole dynamics. All right, yeah, yeah, 59 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: all right. So to begin with, let's talk about where 60 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna go in what time period we're traveling to. 61 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: For the most part, here, we have to journey to 62 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire during a time that is known as 63 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: the Crisis of the third century, a period of decades 64 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: lasting from two thirty five to two eighty four CE, 65 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: during which the Roman Empire was just defined by anarchy 66 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: and strife, a time in which it nearly collapsed. One 67 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: of the books that I was looking to for this 68 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: is actually it's an older history book, series of popular 69 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: history books came out many decades ago from Will Durant. 70 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: Uh this is the Story of Civilization. And there's one 71 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: section in the book that deals with primarily with the 72 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: with the Romans, titled the Collapse of the Empire, and 73 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: there's a great quote I want to read from that quote, 74 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: we shall not repeat in bloody detail the names and 75 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: battles and deaths of these impervors of anarchy. In the 76 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: thirty five years between Alexander Severus and Orillian, thirty seven 77 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: men were proclaimed emperors. I'm gonna say it, that's too 78 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: many emperors. That's too many, is it is? It's that 79 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: is just that is that has a lot of emperors 80 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,119 Speaker 1: to go through in such a short period of time, 81 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: And like Will Durant, we are not going to go 82 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: through all of them. We're gonna mention some of them, 83 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: just to give you a little color for just how 84 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: much turmoil, how much turnover there was. This was the 85 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: time period during which there was there was really not 86 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: any job security to being the emperor of Rome. You know. 87 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: One thing that's always interesting to me about Roman history 88 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: is not just that basically that all Roman emperors are 89 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: bad leaders by modern morals and modern standards, but that 90 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: most Roman emperors were bad leaders by Roman standards. Yeah. 91 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: There there's when you start talking about, well, who are 92 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: the worst emperors, it's you can draw up a pretty 93 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: exhaustive list, uh, and then that they're actually there are 94 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: actually some some pretty pretty fun lists of the shore 95 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: you can find on the internet. But a number of 96 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: really bad ones do occur during this time. Some of 97 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: the other really famous bad ones occur prior to this period. 98 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, the Crisis of the Third century runs from 99 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: two thirty five to two eighty four, So that race 100 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: was the question, what do these dates mean? Let's start 101 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: with two thirty five. In the year two thirty five, Uh, 102 00:05:55,279 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: the Emperor Severus Alexander is assassinated by his own troops. 103 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: So Alexander was had been named emperor at age fourteen, 104 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: and he was a progressive figure in many respects who 105 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: sought to restore the power of the senate and the 106 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: aristocracy and to weaken the dominance of the Roman military. 107 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: So he built libraries, public baths, and other works in 108 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: the empire. He engaged in various economic programs to bring 109 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: down interest rates and also helped the poor. Now I 110 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,239 Speaker 1: say progressive in many respects because he also enforced various 111 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: morality based laws that saw the arrest of prostitutes the 112 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: deportation of homosexuals. Still considered that previous emperors included the 113 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: likes of Caligula, Nero, and Commitists. Uh, these are all 114 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: names that that probably ring a bell in everyone's head, 115 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: you know some of the stories about these individuals. Even 116 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: if that scene from the movie where Caligula chops off 117 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: people's heads with the lawnmower didn't really happen in history, 118 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: Caligula was a really bad guy. Yeah, it's still in 119 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: the spirit of Caligula. So Alexander's immediate predecessor was an 120 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,119 Speaker 1: emperor by the name of a Lagabalus who had died 121 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: at age eighteen following a short rain that's noted mostly 122 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: for scandals and excess, though Durrant notes that something you 123 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: have to keep in mind, I guess with a lot 124 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: of these individuals is that at least some of these 125 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: scandals were probably fabricated by enemies, of which um uh 126 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: Alagabalus had many in the senatorial class. So just so 127 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: one of one of the many examples will be pointing 128 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: to in this episode where history and the truth is 129 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: of course tweaked to serve some sort of an agenda, 130 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: but by by all accounts, still not a great emperor. 131 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: He hosted weird lotteries, and there's actually an excellent horrible 132 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: history sketch from the historical Comedy of show on British 133 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: television about this. Oh you shared this with me, but 134 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I did not have time to watch it yet. 135 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: I'm I can't wait to once we're done here. Basically, 136 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean the story is that, yeah, he was like, 137 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: well let's have a lottery, let's let's have some fun romans. 138 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: But you might win some money or a house, but 139 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: you also might win just a whole bunch of flies 140 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: or a poisonous snake. Things. So it was, you know, 141 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: in a way, it was it was kind of like 142 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: very strange reality television of this time period. Huh. Um. 143 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: So I remember Ella Ablis has come up on the 144 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: show at least once before, because it was in our 145 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: invention episode on the history of air conditioning. And there's 146 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: a story told by I'm sorry, I forget the Roman historian, 147 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: but somebody tells a story about Ella Ablas cooling his 148 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: his orchard or his you know, the courtyard at his 149 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: palace by having people bring down snow from the tops 150 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: of a nearby mountain and pile it up just to 151 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: like things cool in the summer, uh, which overall is 152 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: very inefficient. But what I think we decided, well, if 153 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: there's a huge block of snow that would actually sort 154 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: of cool off the area, especially if there's like breeze 155 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: blowing over it. Uh. So this is uh, I guess 156 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: if that's true clever but also kind of kind of excessive. 157 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: But then again, we we also addressed the question of 158 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: whether or not that was true, because I think the 159 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: historian who told that story was a marked adversary of 160 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: the legacy of this emperor. M Yeah, it may have 161 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: just been trying to make him look stupid, right and 162 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: like and also if you're if you happen to be 163 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: this teenage emperor of Rome. I mean, maybe you just 164 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: asked that they bring snow to your house once, and 165 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: then your enemies find out about it, and they're like, 166 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: he brings snow to his house every day. It's the 167 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: most extravagant thing I've ever heard of. Oh yeah, I 168 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 1: remember when he created ice town. At any rate, about 169 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: the only good thing to say about and it seems 170 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: is that he did seem interested in spring religious freedom 171 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: in the empire, if only so he could keep worshiping 172 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: the Syrian god ball himself. So when Severus Alexander becomes 173 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: emperor at age fourteen, the same as his predecessor, things, 174 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: I guess seemed to be moving in a different direction, 175 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: and his rule proves stable, lasting thirteen years, the longest 176 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: reign of a single emperor in decades. At that point 177 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: he was a temperate figure, and especially early on, his 178 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: mother companion commanded a great deal of power through him, 179 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: and I think was was always a powerful figure in 180 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 1: his administration, if you will. Together they showed a certain 181 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: amount of openness to the practice of Judaism and Christianity 182 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: within the empire. They even lowered taxes. But of course 183 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: he courted a powerful enemy in attempting to reduce the 184 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: power of the Roman military, and Rome had many external 185 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: enemies during this time, including the Sasanian Empire UH, sometimes 186 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: referred to as the Uh Sassanid Empire or sometimes referred 187 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: to as as a dynasty rather than an empire. This 188 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: is located in Persia and at this point in time 189 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: only recently established in two twenty four by the founder 190 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: Ottashir the First, So about eight years into Alexander's rule, 191 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: the Sasanian army under Ottashir In invades Mesopotamia and threatens 192 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: Roman held Syria. So Alexander initially responds by basically sending 193 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: him a statement condemning the violence of the invasion and 194 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: telling him, look, everyone should be content with current borders 195 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: and domains, and also kind of warning them, if you're 196 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: gonna mess with Rome, you're not going to find it 197 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: as easy as the wars you've been you've been waging previously. Now. Ottashir, 198 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: perhaps interpreting this as weakness, then follows up by demanding 199 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: all of Syria and Asia minor from Rome, and this 200 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: results in a direct military response from Alexander, and he 201 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: manages to push Sasanian forces of Mesopotamia by two thirty three. 202 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: But that's when Rome's Germanic enemies to the north, the 203 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: Alamanni and the Marcomanni, attack, taking advantage of the pleaded 204 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: northern forces to attack Gaul. So Alexander and his mother 205 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: they rejoined the army, having only just briefly celebrated um 206 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: sort of victory over the Sasanians, and he leads the 207 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: army to meet this new threat. On his mother's advice, 208 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: he pushes for peace with the Germanic tribes, offering annual 209 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: payments to keep them in check. His own troops reportedly 210 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: see this as weakness. Uh. They also seem to, you know, 211 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: have issues with his mother's presence. Uh, And so they 212 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: and of course, on top of all this, they still 213 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: hate him for his work against the military, and so 214 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: they they mutiny against Alexander and they assassinate him, his 215 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 1: mother and some of his his key people. And this 216 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: is this is the point where we begin these these 217 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: decades of chaos. This is when we began the crisis 218 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: of the third century. Okay, so the young emperor, his 219 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: mom are dead, they're they're they're they're out of power. 220 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: Who's coming up next to who do they put in 221 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: well a military man. Of course, they lift up um 222 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: maxim minus thracks a sixty two year old commander, and 223 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: his rule would last a mere three years because everything 224 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: just to sends into civil war and death at this point, 225 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: beginning the crisis of the third century in earnest and 226 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: immediately bringing about the what is sometimes called the Year 227 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: of Six Emperors in two thirty eight, when six different 228 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: men claimed to be Emperor of Rome. Man you thought 229 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: two popes at the same time was too much? Yeah, 230 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: so the following decades, Yes, we're in fact bloody and chaotic, 231 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: with again thirty seven different proclaimed Roman emperors during just 232 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: a thirty five year time period. Internal factors weakened the state, 233 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: foreign enemies threatened on every front. This period of crisis 234 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: lasted until two eighty four, when the Empire was stabilized 235 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: once more with the reign of Diocletian, who reigned twenty 236 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: one years and then voluntarily retired and died of get 237 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: this natural causes, um, All of this stands and start 238 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: contrast to the short, bloody and doomed reins of most 239 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: of the emperors preceding him. Diocletian is an interesting figure. 240 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: I'm certainly no expert on his life, but I know 241 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: one thing about him is that he actually had the 242 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: the the the unusual seeming insight that maybe hereditary rule 243 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: is stupid and causing a lot of problems because if 244 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: you're just like handing trying to hand power off to 245 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: your son, your son might not actually be good at anything, 246 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: it might not be very smart. So instead, what you 247 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: should have is a system where power is shared between 248 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: I think the idea came up with was the tetrarchy, 249 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: that there would be four rulers who would rule over 250 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: different parts of the empire. They would make decisions together. 251 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: Then then after they were in charge, they would pass 252 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: on their office not to their sons, but to like 253 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: basically people, their min tees, people who they had trained, 254 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: uh allegedly on the basis of merit. Though I think 255 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: that pretty quickly devolved into hereditary rule again with Constantine's 256 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: father trying to pass stuff on to Constantine. Yeah. Yeah, this, 257 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: this whole question over hereditary rule is interesting because I mean, 258 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: from a modern perspective, we look at it and we 259 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: and we say, well, this that is it's obviously a 260 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: bad idea. Um, there's so much that can go wrong 261 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: with and you look at these historical examples of a 262 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: fourteen year old emperors and it just seems insane. Like, 263 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: my son, I have to realize with horror, will be 264 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: fourteen in four years. Um, I cannot imagine him as 265 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: a fourteen year old emperor. That' but your son is 266 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: so much nicer than any Roman emperor that ever lived. 267 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: Well at this point he hasn't become emperor yet, has 268 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: a tasted power. But but you know, the other interesting 269 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: side of this, as I've mentioned earlier that uh, severals 270 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: Alexander and his mother, one of their ideas was, all right, 271 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,239 Speaker 1: let's put the power back in more in the hands 272 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: of the aristocracy. Uh, let's get it away from them 273 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: from the military a bit. And apparently one of the 274 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: arguments in this is, well, hey, at least with hereditary rule, 275 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: there's a structure. You know, if you're looking at at 276 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: an alternative that involves just sort of endless parades of 277 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: soldier kings, uh, then you know, how are you supposed 278 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: to work with that? And indeed, I guess you could 279 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: look at the Crisis of the third century as an 280 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: example of what happens when you're ruled mostly by soldier 281 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: kings trying to murder each other or trying to narrowly 282 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: avoid being murdered by your own soldiers. Not saying hereditary 283 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: rule is a great idea, but I'm just saying you 284 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: can see where people can maybe waffle back and forth 285 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: as these different systems results in chaos. I think all 286 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: of these stories are just a brilliant advertisement for liberal democracy. Yeah, alright, 287 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: So these these various imp imperial stories we've looked at 288 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: so far, these are mostly just to set the stage 289 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: for the story of Emperor Valerian, who reigned to fifty 290 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: three through to sixty right in the middle of the 291 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: crisis of the third century, and his two is a 292 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: tale of blood and doom, but also a good deal more. 293 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: And and don't worry if you're out there, I know, 294 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: listening to the show and thinking, well, I wonder if 295 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: there'll be any science in this. Don't worry. We do 296 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: have a short science paper that ties into everything later on. Alright, 297 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to read another quote from Will Durant, because 298 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: that was another one that I thought was was rather nice. 299 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: And this is again from the Collapse of the Empire 300 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: and the Story of Civilization Part three. Quote the New 301 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: Emperor Valerian, already sixty and facing war at once with 302 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: the Franks, the Alamanni, the Marcomanni, the Goths, the Scythians, 303 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: and the Persians, made his son ruler of the Western 304 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: in higher, kept the East for himself and led an 305 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: army into Mesopotamia. He was too old for his tasks 306 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: and soon succumbed. Okay, so he's going east to fight, right, 307 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: and it's not gonna end well. And granted durance covering 308 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: a lot of territory in these books. So that's basically 309 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: all he has to say about the episode with Valerian 310 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: right there. But but there are other histories, of course 311 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: that give us a lot more details, and and also 312 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: some questionable details as we'll get into. So the crisis 313 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: of the third century against all, a number of would 314 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: be emperors rise up through the military ranks, and of 315 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of them were purely of 316 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: military stock. Valarian, however, actually came from the senatorial class, 317 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: so he would he was essentially a nobleman, and his 318 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: roles in the state were largely more political for the 319 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: most part earlier on, and it was only later that 320 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: he was appointed as a ducks or leader in the military, 321 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: and he had two sons, uh Galinus and Licinius. Now 322 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: to set the stage for Valerian's rule, here's how the 323 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: three previous rules ended. First of all, there's Emperor Decius, 324 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: who reigned to forty nine through to one died at 325 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: the Battle of Verona, one of the worst military disasters 326 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: in Roman history. According to Durrant, either of wounds sustained 327 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: against the enemy or he was assassinated by his own troops. 328 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: There's there's some discussion over which it was. At home, 329 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: he had sought to restore Roman morality and ordered the 330 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: destruction of Christianity. This will become important later on. Oh yeah, 331 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: because so there, uh there. There has long been a 332 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: sort of meme among Christians that Christianity was just fundamentally 333 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: like illegal in the Roman Empire and constantly totally persecuted, 334 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,479 Speaker 1: which is not actually true. I mean Romans, the Romans 335 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: were absolutely evil, and you wouldn't say tolerant generally, but 336 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: they were broadly religiously tolerant. They didn't care what people's 337 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: religion was most of the time, but there would be occasional, 338 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: sporadic outbreaks of persecution of Christians for various reasons. They 339 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: were accused of being responsible for various calamities because they 340 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,479 Speaker 1: were They were accused of being atheists, as in not 341 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: believing in the Roman gods and not making sacrifices to them, 342 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: and so you know, not contributing basically to the quid 343 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: pro quo that kept the gods happy and kept everybody's 344 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: fate good. But also I think they were sometimes accused 345 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: of sort of disloyalty to the emperor if they wouldn't 346 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: make a burned offering to Caesar Um. So occasionally these 347 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: persecutions would break out, and I think under Decius was 348 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: was if I recall some of the worst persecution of Christians. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 349 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: like you said, it kind of goes emperor to emperor, 350 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: so you'll you'll have a period of and some of 351 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: these periods, these rules are pretty brief, especially during this period, 352 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: this this time period. But yeah, one emperor may just 353 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: be like, oh, you know, it's all right whatever Judaism, Christianity, Uh, 354 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: it's all good. I I'm busy with other things. And 355 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: then someone will come along and say, well, one of 356 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: the problems here is we have to return to Roman 357 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: moral values or Roman traditions and Roman rights need to 358 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: be preserved all right, So that that was one of 359 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: the three preceding Valerian. The other was Gallus, who lived 360 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: who have not lived, but reigned to fifty one through 361 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: two fifty three. He was definitely murdered by his own troops. Uh. 362 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: He also had two co emperors that died of plague 363 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: or murder, We're not sure which. And then there's a 364 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: Milianus who reigned June through September in the year to 365 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: fifty three. That's a nice short one. He was, guess what, 366 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: murdered by his own troops. So this is just a 367 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: taste of how unstable again the position of emperor was 368 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: at this time, as Valerian himself is named emperor by 369 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: a Millanius, his own defecting legions. But even as internal 370 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: strife at least temporarily slightly settled around this new emperor Valerian, 371 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: and you have uh, you know, I guess a cessation 372 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: of just in civil war. Uh, there are still plenty 373 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: of would be usurpers in the Roman ranks. Plus Rome 374 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: still faces threats from all of its external enemies, including 375 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: the Sasanian Empire in the east. So Valerian he puts 376 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: his son uh Galinas in charge of the West and 377 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: occupies himself with the East and the threat posed by 378 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: the Sasanians in Persia. And meanwhile at home, we should 379 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: also know, coming back to the issue of of of 380 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: Christian persecution, that Valerian is also remembered for the persecution 381 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: of Christians in Rome. Uh. He had ordered that all 382 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: must conform to Roman ceremonials and that Christian assemblages are forbidden. 383 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: And then when Pope Sixtus the Second resists, the Pope 384 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: is beheaded and seven of his deacons are executed as well. 385 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: Christians at the time and even in times thereafter, really 386 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: have a hard time letting this one go. Yeah, yeah, no, 387 00:22:55,119 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: no pity for the pope killer. Now, at this point, 388 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: I'd like us to turn to the Sasanian Empire, because 389 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: a number of you might not be very familiar with 390 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, and uh, and I wasn't 391 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: that familiar with the Sasanian Empire either prior to to 392 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: this research. So I turned in part to a book 393 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: titled Sasanian Iran to twenty four through six one c 394 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: by Turaj dari On, Iranian ironologist and historian at the 395 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: University of California, Irvine. Um, he's published a number of 396 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: books over the years, and you also, you know, can 397 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: find very speaking engagements and and whatnot that he's um 398 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: he's done concerning not only ancient Iran, but also the 399 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: modern state or of Iran and global affairs and so forth. 400 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: So in the openings of the book, um Dari points 401 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: some things out about our understanding of ancient history that 402 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: that I thought were very illuminating. He points out, of 403 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: course that ancient history and the West especially is often 404 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: very Eurocentric, with excessive energy focused on European, Greek and 405 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: Roman cultures and histories, which can of course come at 406 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: the expense of understanding other powerful and important cultures. And 407 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: this is often, he says, utilized to set up this 408 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: narrative that European and Western power is a kind of 409 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: continuous success story that extends back through these cultures. But 410 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: Dary points out that not not only is such a 411 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: focused detrimental to understanding say, the nation's bordering the Roman 412 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: Empire during this time period, but you also can't look 413 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: at the Roman Empire in a vacuum. You have to 414 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: you have to look at you have to understand the 415 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: nations that it's interacting with and that it's warring with. 416 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: Otherwise you're also denying yourself a full understanding of say Rome. Well, yeah, 417 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: that's true in many ways. I'd say one of the 418 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: most baseline is remembering that the Roman Empire when it 419 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: during its great expansion, most of the people in the 420 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: Roman Empire were not Romans. There were people living in 421 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: conquered territories who were under Roman rule. Yeah, and and 422 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: in many cases, individuals fighting for the Roman military are 423 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: auxiliary troops that are that are brought in from regions 424 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: outside of of Rome proper. Yeah, but I love this, Uh, 425 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's kind of one of these these 426 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: things where once it's stated, it seems so obvious. But yeah, 427 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: it's like, um, it's like if you were to ask somebody, hey, 428 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: what's your favorite boxer and they're like, oh, Muhammad Ali 429 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: And then you're like, oh, what was your favorite opponent? 430 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, I don't know any other boxers. 431 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: I just know. Moment like, what you how much can 432 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: you really understand this athlete if you don't understand the 433 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: athletes he competed against and and and so forth. Um, 434 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: you know, that's an oversimplification, but that the Yeah, I 435 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: think this is a really valid point. And I have 436 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: to say when I when I think back about when 437 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: I was first learning about, say that decline of Rome, 438 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: I feel like there was this feeling that Holy Rome 439 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: is this wounded lion, and you have all these other 440 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: kingdoms that are sort of snapping at its heels like hyenas. 441 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: But this is, you know, certainly not the case with 442 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: the Sasanian Empire. So what was the Sasanian Empire um 443 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: sometimes called the Empire of the Iranians or the Neo 444 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 1: Persian Empire. Well, it all begins with the reign of 445 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: Otdashir the First, also known as Otashir, the Unifier, who 446 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: indeed unify the Iranian Plateau in two twenty four. You'll 447 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: remember him from just a little bit earlier as the 448 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: ruler who tangles with Severus Alexander. So Drey writes that 449 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: it was an enormous undertaking to unite the Iranian plateau 450 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: under one rule at this time, But the exact origins 451 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: of the House of Sasain and Otdashir the First are 452 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: somewhat shrouded in mystery. He apparently picked Susain as the 453 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: name for his house, as it may have been the 454 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: name of a protective deity, but I don't think we 455 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: know for sure. Uh. And it seems that while Ottashir 456 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: may have had a background in Zoroastrianism, so his father 457 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: um pah Bag may have been a fire temple priest, 458 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: he was still essentially an upstart. And I thought this 459 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: passage from Dare is is rather illuminating quote. Furthermore, it 460 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: was claimed that Oddashir was Odda Shir, that kand the 461 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: son of pa Bag of the race of Sassain, from 462 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: the family of King Dare. When looking at this line, 463 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: one gets the sense that every possible connection to divinity, royalty, 464 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: and nobility was evoked by artist Shir, which can only 465 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: mean that he was none of them. So another example 466 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: of the powerful tinkering with history right, the falsification of 467 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: one's lineage to tie in with the noble, the royal 468 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: in the divine. You know, sometimes when I look at 469 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: these ancient rulers and I see them, I know there's 470 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: a specific term for this, so I forget what it is, 471 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, the list of prestigious things that would be 472 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: said after their name, so it's king whatever you know, 473 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: And then all these associations with nobility, lineage, deity, royalty, 474 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: and stuff. It reminds me of keywords stuffing in the like, Uh, 475 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: you know that that era where you and I first 476 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: started getting into digital content on the internet. Uh, and 477 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: all these companies that we were competing with, we're doing 478 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: this thing where they would try to rank higher and 479 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: Google results by just loading tons of irrelevant metadata garbage 480 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: into every page. So it's like, is this page really 481 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: about Metallica? No, but it's in the meta Yeah, yeah, 482 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,719 Speaker 1: the meta keywords that list is longer than the actual post. Right, 483 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: So out to share the first is definitely bringing the 484 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: metadata here. But I but I should drive home he 485 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: does have the power to back it up that this 486 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: is just about securing the power, um, supporting the power 487 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: by making these uh perhaps making these claims to uh divinity, 488 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: royalty and nobility now and gaining this power though art 489 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: to share the first uh possibly one this his rule 490 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: through conflict not only with rival Iranian kings, were perhaps 491 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: even family members. So in piecing together to history, He's 492 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: uh dare mentions that artist Shar's father may have dethroned 493 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: an important king and artist shir then then may have 494 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: taken to the field of battle against his own brother, 495 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: but his brother died unexpectedly before this battle could occur. 496 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: This raises the specter of possible assassination. We're not we 497 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: will never know for sure, but yeah, he's seemingly perhaps 498 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: rebelled against his own father and against or against his 499 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: own brother after his father's death. So there's there's infighting 500 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: in the family on this ascension towards becoming the King 501 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: of kings UM. He also has this decade long war 502 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: against Artawan the Fourth UH, further expansions across the the 503 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: Iranian Plateau, challenges from other local war lords. UH. Some 504 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: of these warlords are fighting on our Tawan the Fourth 505 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: behalf are to Shear the First also has to deal 506 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: with challenges from other brothers, and finally, are Tawan the Fourth, 507 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: his main rival, takes the field with his armies against 508 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: are to Shear the First and parishes Artist Here, the 509 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: First becomes the King of kings and the Sasanian Empire 510 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: is born. Now, as we already alluded to, are to 511 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: Share the First expands his territory from here and eventually 512 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: enters into conflict with Rome over Syria and Asia Minor 513 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: and there's there's really no clear winner to this conflict. 514 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,239 Speaker 1: Uh Now, certainly Alexander Severus and his mother, you know, 515 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: celebrate that they have they have some sort of a 516 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,959 Speaker 1: victory here, but it sounds like both sides were somewhat 517 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: reduced and exhausted by this whole um series of battles, 518 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: and no one was truly victorious. But Alexander Severus is 519 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: able to hold under Roman territory here in the in 520 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: the Asia Minor, but after his death the Sasanians are 521 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: able to then annex several regions. Dare notes, however, that 522 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: are to shear. The first challenge to Rome was probably 523 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: not mere expansionist hubris, as Alexander's letter alleges that it is, 524 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: but that it was probably an attemp to stave off 525 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: further Roman expansion into their region. This is one of 526 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: the nasty problems of the imperial mindset, right. So you 527 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: have empires with borders touching, you can always justify conquest 528 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: and expansion of borders, which means killing people, you know, 529 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: military expansion as defensive because it's like, well, I got 530 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: to get more of a buffer, you know, out from 531 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: my territory, because what if they do it to me exactly. 532 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: And so you have all these these peoples in between 533 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: these empires that are that are really seeing the some 534 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: of the worst of it. And yeah, the imperial mindset 535 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: on both sides, like you say, so the important thing 536 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: to keep in mind. Know I'm throwing a lot of 537 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: names out there, but yeah, Artishire the First, this is 538 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: the beginning of the Sasanian Empire. Uh. He consolidates power. 539 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: He is a true threat um, He's already engaging in 540 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: warfare against the Romans. But then artish Or the First 541 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: does again what is what seems may seem unthinkable at 542 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: the time. He retired ars Uh and pass his leadership 543 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: on to his son. And his son is shah Bur 544 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: the First UH, and he Shabu the First, becomes the 545 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: leader of the Sasanian Empire in two forty and this 546 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: is the ruler that comes into direct conflict with Emperor Valeriana. 547 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: Now note that it would be twenty years before Valerians 548 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: fall at this point at the Battle of Edessa, and 549 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: thirty years before Shahbur's reign ends due to death from illness. 550 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: So while Rome is racked by instability and infighting during 551 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: this time period, the Sasanian Empire is actually incredibly strong. 552 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: Now that's not to say that there aren't dynastic squabbles 553 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: going on uh in the Sasanian Empire under Schabur. There 554 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: there are. Uh. He's still having to deal with with 555 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: challenges from even some of his other brothers, uh, you know, 556 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: the other potential usurpers. So it's not not saying that 557 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: the kingdom is peaceful, but during this time period it 558 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: when there's so much turmoil, especially going on in the 559 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: Roman Empire, the Sasanian Empire is pretty solid. Now. Schabur 560 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: the First had been well prepared for Ruble, according to 561 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: the sources I was reading here, especially dare Uh. He 562 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: he had accompanied his father on the battlefield, ensuring that 563 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: he was just ready to take the fight to his enemies, 564 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: including whoever happened to be calling themselves Roman Emperor at 565 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: any given moment. And of course it changes a lot, 566 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: and of course battles continue between the two empires in Mesopotamia. 567 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: In fact, in two forty three, Roman Emperor Gordian the 568 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: Third invades Mesopotamia in an attempt to retake territory that 569 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: had been previously held by Rome under Alexander Severus with 570 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: an auxiliary army of mostly Gothic and German soldiers, and 571 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: that following year, Gordian the third is dead, as Schabur 572 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: the First claims that he killed the emperor in battle, 573 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: but it seems like possibly the truth here, as the 574 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: emperor or died away from many known battles and might 575 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: have been guess what, killed by his own soldiers. But 576 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: again we see the fluid and power serving nature of 577 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: histories here. If you're Chabu the First and you know 578 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: that during the conflicts that you're engaging in against the 579 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: Roman Emperor, that the Roman Emperor is dead, might as 580 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: well go ahead and claim that kill for at least 581 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: your troops, if not you personally. And that was only yeah, yeah, 582 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: that that'll back up your your power. And then after 583 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: this the following emperor Uh makes concessions, essentially becomes a tributary, 584 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: if you will, And this is the way that the 585 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: Sasanians end up framing it. And and into sixty Schabur 586 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: pushes further into Mesopotamia and comes into conflict with Emperor Valerian. 587 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: So at this point, yeah, we're going to get to 588 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: the Battle of Odessa. This is the crucial battle in 589 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: this whole scenario, it counts among the worst Roman military 590 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: disasters in history. On one hand, again, we have the 591 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: forces of the Sasanian Empire under Shapu the First, and 592 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: here we have Roman forces under Emperor Valerian. So one 593 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: of my chief sources here was Udo Hartman's The Third 594 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: Century Crisis from the Encyclopedia of Ancient Battles that came 595 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: out in seventeen, which provides a nice summary of what 596 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: we know and what some of the histories say concerning 597 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: the Battle of Edessa and it's aftermath. So let's go 598 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: ahead and hit the basics here. Okay, So where is 599 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: this taking place? Uh? For the most part, we're talking 600 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: about Edessa, an ancient city, and what is now Turkey. 601 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: More precisely, this battle may have occurred somewhere between the 602 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: cities of Kre and Edessa. When did this occur? This 603 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: is again the year to sixty and it's spring, and 604 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: then we have the two forces. Well, so let's start 605 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: with the Roman forces. This is the one we actually 606 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: have some numbers on whether those numbers are correct or not. 607 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: As a matter of discussion, we don't know for sure 608 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: exactly what the troop count was but Shabu the first 609 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: puts it at seventy thousand, which is probably an exaggeration 610 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: to enhance his victory. But um, but Deare gives us sixty. Um. 611 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: It does seem that Valerian had pretty strong numbers, bolstered 612 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: by troops originally stationed to the north of Rome to 613 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: deal with Germanic threats, and so essentially the troops here 614 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: under under Valerian, it's going to be some makeup of Roman, 615 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: Germanic and Gothic troops. That seems a safe assumption. Okay, 616 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: so tens of thousands at least that this is They're 617 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: not playing around. Yeah no, but I haven't seen anybody 618 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: suggesting that this is just a small ragtag group. Now 619 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: this is. This is a large army led by an 620 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: emperor of Rome, so you know, it's it's it's not 621 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: to be underestimated. On the other hand, we have the 622 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: Sasanian forces here and this numbers here seem to just 623 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: be unknown. I haven't even run across the source that 624 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,399 Speaker 1: ventures a guess at what the numbers were. Uh though 625 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: I suppose we you know, you could probably loosely speculate 626 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: if you roll through some of the possible scenarios about 627 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: just how large the force might need to be to 628 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: pull off the victory. Though we have to remember that 629 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: troops size alone is not necessarily a determinant for victory 630 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: nor his fighting strength. UM. I try I go back 631 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: to um some of the writings of of Brett Devereaux, 632 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,399 Speaker 1: who has a wonderful history blog about ancient battles uh. 633 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: And he always points out, quote the question is always 634 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: achieving strategic objectives and that that is ultimately more important 635 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: than the fighting strength. So you'll have certain ancient armies, 636 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: for example, that you can say their fighting strength was 637 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: was greater than this other force, but are they able 638 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: to pour pull off strategic objectives? Are are the other 639 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: mechanisms of warfare working in their favor? Devereaux's blog, by 640 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: the way, is a collection of unmitigated pedantry UH, well 641 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 1: worth checking out if you're interested in ancient warfare, as 642 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: well as sort of the echoes of ancient warfare that 643 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: you find in things like The Lord of the Rings, 644 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: the books in the movies, or the movie three hundred 645 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: for example, things of that nature. He he does a 646 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: great job dissecting them and talking of out like what 647 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: the history actually tells us. You know, this also reminds 648 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: me of something that came up in episodes we did 649 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: a few years ago about warfare between aunt colonies, which 650 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: is a principle in warfare scholarship sometimes known as Lanchester's laws, 651 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: Lanchester's linear law, in Lanchester Square law. They're not actually laws, 652 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: they're not laws of nature. They're just approximations modeling how 653 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: different types of battles tend to work in reality. And uh, 654 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna gloss over some of the details here, but 655 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: basically my memory is that it found that, you know, 656 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: really like, the individual effectiveness of units and tactics are 657 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: usually more decisive in ancient combat than they are in 658 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: modern combat. Because in shooting wars, where where individual you know, 659 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 1: tanks or or or soldiers can basically shoot in any 660 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: direction at any time, can engage in any direction at 661 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: any time, what you always want is to have overwhelming numbers. 662 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: You know, you would rather defeat the enemy in detail, 663 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: so attack small units of theirs with larger units of 664 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: yours so you suffer minimal losses and do that over 665 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: and over again. But in ancient combat, uh, like, individual 666 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: little tactical decisions could swing things wildly in the favor 667 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: of smaller armies. Yeah, and then if you throw in 668 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: additional factors that are definitely in play during this time, 669 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: including potential mutinies from your own troops, plague and illness. Uh, 670 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: and some of the some of the other factors that 671 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: will get into that may have been in play, particularly 672 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: at the Battle of Odessa. Go back and listen to 673 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: the ant Wars episodes if you want more detail on 674 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: the Lanchester's laws. Thank Alright, So at this point, you know, 675 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: you might you might wonder like, okay, are they going 676 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: to really get into the nitty gritty here about the 677 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: movements of the troops and so forth. This is going 678 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: to be like one of those battles that they teach 679 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: where they talk about, all right, this is where Valerian 680 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: went wrong here and here this is these are the 681 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: advantages that the Sasanians had tactically. Uh no, uh. This 682 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,959 Speaker 1: is one of those battles where even if we wanted 683 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: to get into into those sorts of details, we just 684 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: don't have them. Um. We we don't know exactly how 685 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: the battle proceeded. There are some different versions of how 686 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: it might have gone, and we'll get into that. However, 687 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 1: the immediate outcome is not in question. The Sasanians secure 688 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: absolute victory over the Roman forces. Emperor Valerian and some 689 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: of his senators and soldiers are taken as prisoners. And 690 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: while the Sasanians seem to have suffered minimal casualties, the 691 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: Roman losses, I mean, some estimates put them at like 692 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: sixty thousand or so. Um, it's uh so, it's just 693 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: again a complete military disaster for the Roman forces. And 694 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: so you're probably wondering, okay, even in an age full 695 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: of emperors and kings, and in which emperors and kings 696 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: are are are often present at the battles and sometimes 697 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,840 Speaker 1: die in battle. So we've already looked at an example 698 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: or two of that, how is it that a disaster 699 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: of this magnitude can take place? How can you wind 700 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: up with your emperor in the hands of the enemy 701 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: forces without them having actually, uh, you know, invaded Rome 702 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 1: or something of that nature. Well, as Hartman summarizes, we 703 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: basically have three different accounts in the Western histories of 704 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: what happened, and again we have to acknowledge that some 705 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: or all of them have agendas in they're telling. So, 706 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: first of all, there's the ZAWESOMEUS accounts awesome iss is 707 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: writing at the dawn of the sixth century. Uh. This 708 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: version goes basically, Valerian is cowardly. He wants to settle 709 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: things financially, which we have to mention is a tool 710 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: that had been used by the Romans before. You know, 711 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: just meet with the enemy, pay the enemy, and we 712 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 1: can you know, put this off for a while. But 713 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: this story goes that Shabur the first rejects Valerian's envoy 714 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: and says, hey, I'm only going to deal with the 715 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: emperor himself, and then Valerian says, okay, that sounds fine. 716 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: They meet and Valerian has taken pretty okay. So scene 717 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: based on this that this account is attempting to make 718 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: Valerian look weak and cowardly and Shabour look devious, right, 719 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: And apparently this is a common trend and we can 720 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: see as well. M Hartman points this out that like 721 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: this is a classic way of trying to take the 722 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: blame away from Rome and the Roman military itself, a 723 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: way to sort of excuse the loss by saying, well, 724 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,359 Speaker 1: the Rome is strong, the military is strong, but unfortunately 725 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: we had a cowardly emperor here and we had a 726 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: very dastardly opponent. What can you do now? A couple 727 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: of of later this centuries later historians give us a 728 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: different version. This comes to us from George Sincellus, who 729 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:49,280 Speaker 1: died sometime after eight ten, and uh Zonaras who lived 730 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,720 Speaker 1: some of something like ten seventy through eleven forty. And 731 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,760 Speaker 1: in these accounts, Valerian's forces were actually besieged in Odessa 732 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: and they were facing our vation there. Valerian, fearful of 733 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: the military mutiny, chose to surrender to the Sasanian forces 734 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 1: and only went through the motions of resistance casually end 735 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,280 Speaker 1: up being pretty low because some of the Roman forces 736 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: recognize the deception and flee. Oh so is it possible, again, 737 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: if if there's any truth to this, is it possible 738 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: that Valerians like I might actually have a better chance 739 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: of surviving personally if I'm taken prisoner by the enemy 740 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: than if I'm left here with my own troops. Yeah, 741 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: that seems to be the idea that they're getting any here. 742 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: And and and again this this is so brief. It seems 743 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: like there are a number of plot holes that might 744 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: emerge here, like, well, how are they how are the 745 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 1: Roman forces, Uh fleeing? Are they are the how, what 746 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: are the exact conditions of the siege, etcetera. We don't know. Uh, 747 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: this is just one idea. But Zanaris has another account 748 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,879 Speaker 1: that's interesting that again Hartman shares here, and in this one, 749 00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: Chabor the first has Odessa besieged, but Valarian ends forces 750 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: are not in the city of Edessa. They're arriving um 751 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: outside of all of this. They see the siege going on, 752 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: and they see that the Sasanian forces are really really big, 753 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: perhaps larger than their own. It's in a very imposing force. 754 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: So they're reluctant to attack. But then they get intelligence 755 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: that tells them that the Edessian forces are mounting a 756 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: promising counter attack against the besiegers, against the Sasanians, and 757 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: so Valerian decides, well, this is our chance, this is 758 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: our opportunity, and they need to attack now. But then 759 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: they end up routed and surrounded by the Sasanian army 760 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: and taken prisoner. So it's kind of interesting to to 761 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 1: look at these different things and sort of try and 762 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: piece together the sort of situation that might have happened. Again, 763 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: thinking about these tensions involving a potential besiegement, either of 764 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: Roman forces or of another player in the conflict, um, 765 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: the possibility of then of Valerian having to deal with 766 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: potential mutinies occurring within his own ranks, potential desertions, and 767 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: perhaps weighing like who he has a better chance of 768 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,279 Speaker 1: survival with UH, Perhaps the situation where he's dealing with 769 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: potential mutinies and wants to work out some sort of 770 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: a deal but do so without UH, without getting himself 771 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: killed by his own troops. It seems like there may 772 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: have been a lot of factors at play here, but 773 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: as again his Heartman points out, when when it comes 774 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: to Western sources, the two main narratives seem to have agendas. 775 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: One is that you know, we're going to cover for 776 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: the Roman loss by putting the blame on Valerian and 777 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: the enemy. And then for Christian historians uh some in 778 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: like the essentially the immediate aftermath of all of this, 779 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: this is a situation where God is punishing Valerian. Valerian 780 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 1: was hostile towards Christians and the Roman Empire, you know, 781 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,879 Speaker 1: he was, He persecuted Christians, and so the idea here 782 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: is that God him self is punishing Valerian for what 783 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: he has done, a trope that remains popular up until today. 784 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: There is always the temptation within a within a you know, 785 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,919 Speaker 1: a belief in a system of divine justice, to say 786 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: that when my enemy has suffered a bad fate, it's 787 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,280 Speaker 1: because of the bad things they did. They're they're finally 788 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: getting their come upance right right. And again that can 789 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: be not only foreign enemies, but but they can be 790 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: domestic enemies. They can be you know, rival or previous 791 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,800 Speaker 1: emperors when you're saying, well that they weren't right with God. 792 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 1: So this is what happens. We need to get an 793 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: emperor in there who is right with God. And uh. 794 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: And of course any of these kings, especially in this age, 795 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 1: there's going to be some degree of religious tinkering of 796 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,399 Speaker 1: their stories, like I'm king because I'm right with God. 797 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I've got divine blood inside my body. Uh, 798 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, I hearkened back to divine kings, etcetera. So 799 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 1: there's a lot of this going around. Well, looking at 800 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: the time, I think we're gonna have to call this 801 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 1: episode right here and say this is part one of 802 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: this talk. But we will get into some surprising territory 803 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,240 Speaker 1: next time, not only about history and historiography, about the 804 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: the idea of the dethroned prisoner Emperor of Rome, but 805 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 1: also into some surprising microbiology territory. Yeah, I was really 806 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: surprised this came up as well, but I look forward 807 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: to talking about this in the next episode. But for now, yes, 808 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,319 Speaker 1: this is a good, good stopping point point, kind of 809 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: a cliffhanger because at this point the Roman army has 810 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 1: been defeated and Emperor Valerian is a captive of the 811 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 1: Sasanian Empire. What's going to happen next, Well, there's a 812 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: lot of discussion about what happens next. Alright, So come 813 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,160 Speaker 1: join us again on Thursday as we continue this historic 814 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,319 Speaker 1: and ultimately scientific investigation. In the meantime, if you want 815 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,359 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 816 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 1: you'll find them in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind 817 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: podcast feed. Our core science and culture episodes published on 818 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays, but on Wednesday we do a short 819 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 1: form artifact or monster fact. On Monday's we do listener mail, 820 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 1: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to 821 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film. Huge Thanks as always, 822 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,960 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 823 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 824 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest topic for 825 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,800 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 826 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 827 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 828 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,720 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My heart Radio, visit the iHeart 829 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your 830 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: favorite shows.