WEBVTT - The Necromantic Urge, Part 1 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.359 My Heart is made a necromancer's glass, where homeless forms 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:09.039 and exile Phantom's team, where faces of forgotten sorrows gleam 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:14.040 and dead despairs, archaic peer and pass gray longings of 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:18.960 some weary heart that was possessed me, and the multiple supreme, 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:25.320 unwildered hope and star emblazoned dream of questing armies, ancient 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:30.200 queen and lass risen vampire alike. From out the wormy mold, 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.560 deep in the magic mirror of my Heart, behold their 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.760 parish beauty and depart And now from black Ophelia, far 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:43.559 and cold, swimming in deathly light on Charnal skies, the 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:46.720 enormous ghosts of bygone worlds arise. 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.320 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:01.960 Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:02.840 name is Robert. 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.560 Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And to continue a 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.480 Stuff to Blow Your Mind tradition, we are disregarding the 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:15.040 traditional Gregorian calendar, and we have decided that October begins 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.440 in late September. It often does for us. If you 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.760 don't know, we do spooky content all October, and today 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.320 is the first day of that month. Long festival. 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.800 That's right. I mean, yeah, Halloween has already begun, There's 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:32.560 no doubt about it. I'm going to a haunted house 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:37.000 tomorrow night, so it's begun. It has begun. And so 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:38.920 we kicked off this episode. This is going to be 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.080 the first of I believe two episodes. We'll see how 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.960 it goes. Regarding necromancy, that was a reading from the 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:49.360 early twentieth century poem Necromancy by the weird fiction, horror 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:51.520 and fantasy writer Clark Ashton Smith. 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.160 Now, I actually suggested this topic because I became interested 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:58.920 in it when we were doing an episode a while back. 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:03.040 I think it was our series on oil and Water. 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.520 We were mainly focusing there on legends about how if 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.079 you pour oil and water it will settle the waves, 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.239 and how to some extent that is actually scientifically true. 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.600 So if you haven't heard that series, go back and 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.000 listen to it. It'll be a treat. But in that series, 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.000 I did end up going on a large digression about 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.320 necromancy in the Hebrew Bible, and it got me thinking 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:29.160 about the idea that necromancy, when people use that word today, 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.359 they're almost always talking about a sort of dungeons and 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:37.040 Dragons sorcerer that raises the dead and commands them as 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:41.400 a sort of shambling thrall of some sort, whereas in 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.040 the traditional understanding, necromancy means something different and is usually 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.200 a reference to the practice of divination with the help 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.160 of the dead, consulting the dead for information. And that 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.400 sort of gap in meanings between the popular understanding and 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.960 the original understanding I thought was very interesting and maybe 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:01.799 worth plowing into the history a bit. 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.320 Yeah. Yeah, because if you're familiar with Dungeons and Dragons necromancers, 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.520 you know that within Dungeons and Dragons this is a 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:13.680 magic practitioner who specializes in spells of the necromancy spell class, 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.760 so things like animate Dead, finger of deav chill Touch, 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.600 that sort of thing. You know, lots of undead ish 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:25.679 magical spells and abilities, and the presentation of necromancers in 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.280 D and D has of course influenced tons of fantasy 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:30.760 and sci fi properties over the years, so there's this 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:35.280 strong pop culture echo of the dead raising necromancer. 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.720 Now, I think, aligning with the traditional understanding of necromancy, 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.680 you do have a spell in Dungeons and Dragons which 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:45.120 is Speak with Dead, which is almost always used for 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.040 necromancy purposes. It's like, you need to get some information 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.160 out of this corpse. And despite the evil connotations of 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.720 necromancy in general, I think anybody can use this spell. 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:58.080 Like in Balder's Gate, I have my very lawful, good 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.480 wizard speaking with dead most of the time. 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:03.720 Yeah, I think one of the interesting things to keep 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.119 in mind about necromancy, we'll probably get into this some more, 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:11.480 is that this idea of like speaking with the dead. 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:17.960 You know, it's like the medieval Christian experience and prohibition 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:19.640 against this sort of thing that kind of cast a 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.840 long shadow where you know, this idea that you shouldn't 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:24.359 attempt to speak with the dead. You don't know what 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:26.680 we'll speak back, because speaking with the dead is not 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.760 possible by the rules of laws of God as as 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.680 as they understood it to be, and and therefore you know, 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:36.920 it was just dangerous to even think about such a thing. 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.880 So that'll be worth keeping in mind here. But the 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:44.680 Dungis and Dragon's idea of the necromancer, of course, you're 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.919 all on various traditions as well, including the discussion of 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.520 necromancers in necromancy and pre existing fantasy and weird fiction, 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.719 including that of Clark Ashton Smith, whose poem started off 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.320 this episode. For instance, he had a story titled The 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.320 Empire of the Necromancers from nineteen thirty two that involved 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.599 a pair of kind of like rogue necromancers who get 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.600 exiled from one kingdom, and so they go into this 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.520 kingdom of this deceased kingdom of tombs and start raising 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.360 up people to serve as their servants, and of course 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.560 they end up rising against them. That sort of thing. 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:22.960 Is it kind of a buddy comedy? 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.080 No, No, it's no, you're not. You don't really sympathize 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.440 with these necromancers. They're awful, and you're rooting for the 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.800 dead to overcome them the whole time, and so it's 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.720 satisfying when they do. It's also worth noting that JR. 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:42.400 Tolkens The Hobbit features whispers of the mysterious Necromancer in Mirkwood. 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:44.680 I think little is made out of this in the text, 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.080 but I think we're to understand that this is an 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:50.440 incarnation of the dark Lord Saarn prior to his return 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.279 to Mordor, and his final incarnation is the all Seeing 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:58.360 Eye as to what sort of literal necromancy he might 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.320 be up to. In Mirkwood. I don't. I don't know 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.160 that we have a clear answer on that. 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.400 That's a good question. I don't know if Sauron would 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.520 be raising the dead to obtain information or for divinatory purposes. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.039 I think he mainly does go more in the D 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.720 and D direction of like he raises what are they called, 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.640 you know, the ring rates. I guess those are undead 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.680 wraiths or revenants of some sort of. They are dead 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:22.920 kings who are brought back to do his bidding. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.200 Yeah. Yeah, so that's that's necromancy and the raising the 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.120 dead sense. But in terms of the speaking with the dead, 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.480 I don't know that he has much to talk about. 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:33.600 With him except like, yeah, do as I command, you, 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:34.679 kneel before zod. 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:40.080 Yeah. So we're going to be talking about several different 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:44.560 angles regarding necromancy here. But one article that I found 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.520 pretty insightful in places was this paper by the Czech 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.920 academic andre J Kapcar titled the Origins of Necromancy or 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.800 how we Learned to Speak to the Dead, And I 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.240 thought this was pretty insightful. He points out that the 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:04.320 ultimate root necromancy can be found in the socioeconomic impact 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.880 of human death on individuals and communities, especially small communities. 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:11.600 And this is one of those things that I think 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.640 can seem like an outrageous overstatement of the obvious at first, 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:18.040 but as social animals, a great deal depends on the 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.760 social bonds created and nurtured by individuals within a group, 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.680 and when an individual dies, it potentially throws all of 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.160 that into disarray unless the bonds they established in life 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.560 can be carried on after their death by one method 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.880 or the other. So it becomes important to retain bonds 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.440 of some sort with one's ancestors, which is not necessarily 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.280 necromancy obviously, and even you know, to seek their guidance, 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:47.280 which is more directly what we might think of as necromancy, 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:51.400 but again not necessarily necromancy, which is is going to 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:53.240 be a distinction we'll come back to again and again. 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.680 This is interesting. It gets into something I think I'm 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:57.720 going to talk about more in Part two than in 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:01.920 this part, but about how some ancient descriptions of alleged 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:09.840 necromancy practices might actually be sort of external misunderstandings of 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:15.680 essentially ancestor cult practices that what is actually sort of 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.520 the care of one's dead ancestors as a sort of 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:26.160 god of sorts is misinterpreted by people who don't practice 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.320 the same thing with regard to their own ancestors as 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.520 an attempt to get information or power from the dead. 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.199 Yeah, I think there's a lot of that going on. 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.520 We'll get into some Chinese sources here in a bed, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.000 and like, the word necromancer pops up a lot in 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:47.120 translations of Chinese sources, and sometimes, really it seems like 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.000 a lot of the time necromancer is used sort of 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:55.120 interchangeably and elegant variation for just wizard, you know, and 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.840 which can make searching for information a little bit tricky 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.840 times because you'll see the word necromancer, but they're not 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:07.600 really talking about anything regarding necromancy specifically. And yeah, and 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.480 again to your point, you end up asking questions like, well, 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.680 what's the difference between a spirit medium and a necromancer? 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:17.079 What's the difference between veneration of ancestors and necromancy? You 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.600 could say it's just a personal branding issue, or it 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.240 depends on which side you're standing on if you are 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.640 on the outside of that culture, particularly with a European 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:30.920 Western European background, again kind of descended from this culture 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.480 in which the idea of speaking to the dead was 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.520 evil or dark in some fashion, then it's easy to 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.040 level the word necromancer, which you know drips a certain 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:43.560 amount of dread. 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.440 Yeah, I think another important thing to understand is that 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.000 especially in the Christian context, but really I think any 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:54.080 religious context that enforces a kind of priesthood based orthodoxy, 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:58.440 there is usually going to be more restrictions on individual 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.960 practice of magic, and necromancy would be one form of that. 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:05.720 And you know, there are other cultural contexts where it's 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.000 more of a kind of magical ritual free for all, 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:11.040 and people engage in all different kinds of practices to 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.719 gain information or blessing, and it's not condemned by the 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:17.240 religious institutions. 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.840 Right right, Well, anyway, to go back to CapCar here, 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:24.600 according to him in broad strokes, necromancy covers anything that 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.240 involves divination practices that involve the spirits of the dead. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.080 And I should also stress that I think he's using 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.800 the term divination broadly here as well as its textbook 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.480 definition doesn't necessarily mean knowledge about the future, but can 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.520 also refer to the access of hidden knowledge, you know, 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.040 the interpretation of omens and so forth. So anytime you're 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.280 trying to find something out by speaking with a spirit 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:54.760 of a dead person. Than that is, broadly speaking, necromancy. 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.079 Yeah, that's my understanding too, especially how it's used in 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.280 the academic literature as opposed to the the popular fantasy. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.360 Yeah. Now, of course, necromancy is just a word, and 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.600 he also breaks down the origins of the word as follows. 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:12.040 So it's a seventeenth century English derivation of the Italian 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:16.000 word necro mancia, which means black magic, which comes from 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:20.160 the Latin word necro mantia, meaning the same thing. The 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:25.160 Latin here borrows from the pre classical Greek word necromantia, 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.880 And so we have necros meaning dead or corpse, and 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:33.560 mantia meaning divination. So we're talking about corpse divination or 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:34.720 divination of the dead. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.920 And that's why you can see the same suffix mancy 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.560 used in other forms of divination like silenomancy, you know, 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.400 divination by looking at the moon and so forth. 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.080 Yeah, and he cites the first use of the word 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:53.080 necromancy in this context to Oregon of Alexandria from third 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:57.800 century CE. He is saying the following, attributing it to 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:03.200 Simon the Magus by means of ineffable a duration. I 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.199 called up the soul of an immaculate boy who had 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:09.240 been put to a violent death, and caused it to 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.680 stand by me. And by its means, whatever I commanded 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.360 is affected, and the soul, freed from the body, possesses 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.840 the faculty of for knowledge. Whence it is called forth 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:25.360 for necromancy. This particular quote, it's from the Recognitions of Clement, 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.720 and it looks like it's from this is mentioned in 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:30.520 a book that he cites from nineteen ninety five by 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:35.600 Robertson Donaldson. Okay, but I guess what it's important to 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.000 drive home, Like it's kind of like three different levels 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:42.400 of talking about necromancy. It's like earliest, if you're looking 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.240 for like the roots of it, Like how far back 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.520 can you go and find something that is described with 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.120 the word necromancy or necromancer? How far back can you 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:55.360 go to something that is being described that matches these 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.439 prerequisites for necromancy? And then ultimately, and we'll maybe get 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.560 into this lag or like what are some things in 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:06.199 the archaeological record that you can point to and say, well, 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.280 that might be something like necromancy, that might be an 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.240 example of some sort of practice that involved seeking guidance 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:16.200 or wisdom from the dead. Ah. 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.959 Yes, because there are a lot of artifacts that without 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.400 literary sources to really explain what was done with them, 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.520 you can't be sure, but they're suggestive of possible practices 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:28.720 having to do with consulting the dead. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:38.959 Yeah. 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.000 Now, in this series, we're going to talk about examples 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:46.079 of necromancy or alleged necromancy in different times and places 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:50.120 throughout history. Let's see, I had some stuff today about 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.959 necromancy and ancient Mesopotamia, and Rob, I know you had 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.320 some stuff about in China. Do you want to do 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:56.080 China first? 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.079 Sure? Yeah, I mean it is Auto Moon festival and everything, 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.439 So maybe we'll start with a Chinese example. So I 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.560 guess the first thing to point out is that we 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.400 should remind ourselves of the importance of ancestor veneration and 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.400 Chinese traditions. And this is by no means unique to 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:18.880 just Chinese traditions, but it is incredibly important. And I 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.760 suppose we should also remind ourselves that modern and ancient 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.200 people alike are capable of having multiple, even conflicting ideas 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:30.040 concerning the dead and the possibility of an afterlife. So 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.480 this may be important later on, because again, in the 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.000 same way that you can have someone who doesn't logically 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.840 believe in goes it doesn't logically believe you can contact 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.440 the spirit world, but that same individual, you know, given 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.120 certain emotional stresses, may seek out a medium and try 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.280 and find some solace there. That sort of thing, Or 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.760 we can just sort of casually have multiple ideas about 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:50.520 the afterlife. 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.360 Yeah, well, while you're emphasizing the multiple ideas that can 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:56.880 exist within a single person, of course, it's even more 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.760 true of a populace across time. Like you know, asking 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.760 like what did ancient Chinese people or what did ancient 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.440 Mesopotamian people think about what happens after death? Is kind 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.480 of like asking what do Americans think about what happens 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.080 after death? I mean, you could represent, you can explain 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:17.320 views that are commonly found, that some views are going 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:21.040 to be much more frequently believed than others, But there's 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.800 no single answer to that. There are a range of beliefs, 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:25.960 and so if you talk in generalities, you can only 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.320 talk based on the sources you have, and even then 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.920 that's probably only going to be talking at best about 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.160 like majorities of people or some commonly held ideas, not 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.400 about what everyone believed all the time. 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.800 That's right. Yeah, we're dealing with a great deal of geography, culture, 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.760 and time when talking about like Chinese, even ancient Chinese 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:51.160 concepts regarding the dead. But I think it's safe to 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.720 say a certain amount of guidance by and communication with 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.840 is baked into the whole concept. Though the degree to 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.840 which this is this angle is emphasized is going to vary. 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.960 So veneration of ancestors does not equal necromancy, But that 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.920 doesn't mean there aren't some comparisons you could make, and 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.080 more to the point, it doesn't mean that there are 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:14.800 not examples of wizards in Chinese mythology and tradition who 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:19.680 are more expressly described as experts specialists with an ability 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.800 to communicate with or facilitate communication with the dead, and 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.600 by that you could classify them as quote unquote necromancers. 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:32.360 So again, that doesn't stop so many texts from describing 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:36.440 wizards as necromancers, even though they're not necessarily doing anything 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:37.920 that is necromantic. 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.880 Well, yeah, and to people who listen to us often 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.320 this should be obvious. But maybe it's worth saying that 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.280 when we use the term necromancer, we are not applying 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.520 any more attaching any moral ideas to that. It just 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.120 means literally somebody who's getting information from the dead, not 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.080 that that's good or bad. Whatever older sources might be 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.440 likely to I don't know, has some kind of stink 0:16:58.480 --> 0:16:59.120 on the idea. 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.480 Yeah, yeah, Now I want to stress that, as always, 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.760 my grasp of Mandarin is very limited and depends on 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.240 various references and tools. But it's my understanding that there 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:13.240 is no one word in Mandarin that expressly denotes necromancy 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.560 in the same way that our word necromancy does. But 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.159 in Chinese tradition, the specialist you would seek out for 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:26.280 any of your strong necromantic needs would be a fung she, 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:31.040 which essentially translates to method master. You'll also see this 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:35.720 translated as alchemist, wizard, or basically any specialist magic user 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:40.560 terminology you can think of, including but not limited to necromancer. Again, 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.120 this is the elegant variation in play here, though again 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.280 there are some cases where you have one of these 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.480 method masters, one of these fungs she who is doing 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:54.240 something that is very necromatic in nature, and so I'd 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.720 like to discuss one in particular. Okay, all right, this 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.879 is going to take us through the Handai. So second 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.760 century BCE, this would have been the rule of Emperor 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:11.280 Wu of Han. More than one wizard and immortalists served 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.119 this guy. He he, especially later in life, had a 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:20.560 fondness for surrounding himself with various magicians and magic users, 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:26.600 seeking things from them like immortality, and I have also 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.359 read that late in life he also became increasingly paranoid 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.000 about plots against him, and I think some of these 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.760 were inspired by dreams and so at the same time 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:41.080 that he was, you know, leaning into the talents of 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.720 magicians to help protect him, he also was very much 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:49.400 supporting witchcraft, persecution of the day and harsh penalties against 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:54.760 alleged magic users. But for instance, one of the fun 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.760 she's that worked for him was leschau Yun, who claimed 0:18:57.760 --> 0:18:59.800 to be a seventy year old immortal and preached in 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:03.000 more mertality via diet and commitment to the Kitchen God. 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:07.600 Though he did die, so maybe there were some holes 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.560 in the plan. But then there was another individual, a 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.840 funk she known as Chao Wing, and this apparently can 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:17.760 be translated as young geezer. It basically means like young 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:18.439 old person. 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:21.919 Wait does that mean he was like an old person 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.080 who was young at heart or a young person who 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:24.760 is old at heart. 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.280 That's a good question because the other guy, Le Shao 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.560 yun like, the whole thing is like he was young, 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:33.600 but he claimed to be seventy. He was like, look 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.560 at me, Look how young I look. This is because 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.560 I have secrets I can teach you. So I'm not 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:44.280 sure if young geezer here was old at heart or 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.600 old in body. Maybe he's young at heart and old 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.320 in body. You know. But where it gets interesting with 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:56.159 this particular practitioner, with Chao Wing is that there are 0:19:56.160 --> 0:20:00.600 a lot of sources that discuss his alleged use of 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.480 some sort of necromancy and potentially shadow puppetry. 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.560 Oh you mean, not separately but together together. 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:12.200 Yes, So shadow puppetry has a very long history in 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:17.199 China and likely originated there and or in India in 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.200 the first millennium BCE. I know, there are a lot 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.879 of a lot of articles out there and sources about 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.080 like where shadow puppetry came from. And you have some 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:31.760 very rich traditions of shadow puppetry in various cultures throughout 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:36.400 Asia in the Middle East, So you know, no matter 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:39.120 where it began like. It has very distinct forms all 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:45.320 over the place, but one popular but academically controversial story 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.720 holds that its roots are shamanistic and key to our 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:50.760 discussion here necromantic. 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:53.399 Okay, give me that controversial story. 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:57.040 All right. So the story here that is often ruminated 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:03.400 on is that Emperor Wu had had a favorite consort 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.600 or concubine by the name of Lady Lee. She was 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:10.200 his absolute favorite, and she she began to grow rather 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.520 ill and eventually died. Towards the ends of her life, 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.199 she began to prohibit him from seeing her face and 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:20.520 then ultimately from hearing her voice, and then she dies, 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:26.159 and Schao Wing offers the Emperor a chance to speak 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.560 with her again, to be in her presence again. The 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:34.080 story is that he brings the Emperor into this kind 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:38.200 of chamber and there's this fabulous silk screen offerings or 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:43.520 place for the spirits. There's incense burning, you know, there's 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:46.600 a you know, manipulation of light and shadow, and he 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:49.400 is able to summon her spirit on the other side 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.200 of the screen. And there is something shade like or 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:53.800 shadow like in her appearance. 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.959 Ah, that's interesting because I wonder if that kind of 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:01.320 thing should meet our death. A mission of necromancy or 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:05.960 not is just wanting to see and interact with someone 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.560 again because you miss them. A form of necromancy is 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:12.879 that getting information from them, not in the way I 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:13.840 would normally think of. 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.240 Well, in some of these tales, apparently like first of all, 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.879 he's completely worn over by this. He's he's like, oh 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:22.480 my goodness, it is her, and like he's so just 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:24.879 overcome by the sensation that she is there again on 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:27.080 the other side of the screen, that he composes a poem. 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:29.960 And I believe there are other accounts that say that, 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.520 like he would sit there for hours talking to her, 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.320 that sort of thing. So in those cases you could, 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:37.159 I guess you could make an argument, well, yeah, this 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:42.560 is the necromancer here is allowing for some sort of 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:46.359 communication with the dead. But not everybody is crazy about 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:48.240 this story. And there are a lot of different interpretations 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.440 and misinterpretations of this, especially apparently when you get into 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:55.320 some like Western analysis of it, where you know, things 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:59.120 get crisscrossed in translation and so forth. I was looking 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.440 at a book called Shiny Shadow Theater, History, Popular Religion, 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:06.919 and Women Warriors by Fan Pinlee Chin, and the author 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:10.359 here points out that many critic critics find it ridiculous 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:14.000 to believe that this court magician first of all invented 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:18.240 shadow puppetry and then used it to fool the emperor 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.639 into thinking that this is the ghost of his favorite 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:25.919 concubine like that, that just seems like quite a stunt 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:28.679 to pull off, even if you're a particular daring and 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:30.720 charismatic wizard. 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.040 I mean, on one hand, yes, but then I don't 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:37.439 know by modern analogy. I mean, I think that there 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:41.119 are people who claim to have spirit medium powers and 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:43.600