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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and we're going to go people who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're once a year reminder that I like talking about

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Speaker 2: spooky stuff kind of all the time. But I am

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Speaker 2: absolutely willing to do the thing where I take the

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Speaker 2: end of October to do something that I find spooky

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Speaker 2: and interesting. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy and my guest

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Speaker 2: and my producer is Sophie ray Lichterman.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 2: How are you?

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Speaker 1: You know I'm excited we're doing Spooky Week. I'm with you.

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Speaker 1: That's always good. My dogs are good. My dog Truman

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Speaker 1: had a very productive vet appointment this morning, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like her past trauma is healing in a beautiful

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Speaker 1: way and I'm so proud of my girly pop amazing.

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Speaker 2: Does that mean Truman's gonna start urinating in places that

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Speaker 2: aren't the backyard, like on walks?

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Speaker 1: I mean, perhaps she is urinating like a normal dog

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Speaker 1: now and goes like five times a day that have

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Speaker 1: just once or twice. That's progress, serious progress, and she's

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Speaker 1: just like a happy, good girl. But this is like

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Speaker 1: a lot of information, So if people don't care, that's fine.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about it anyways. I produced this podcast.

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Speaker 2: The Dog cast.

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Speaker 1: I took her to what's called a veterinary behaviorist, which

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Speaker 1: is like, you know, the equivalent of like a like

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Speaker 1: MD doctor also has a PhD in something. He's like

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Speaker 1: a specialized doctor. Because my dog, Truman came to me

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Speaker 1: with a lot of past trauma. She was severely abused

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Speaker 1: and caged and hit and kicked, and so I've had

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Speaker 1: her fromost a year and we've worked really hard to

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Speaker 1: make her better. But I finally got in an appointment

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Speaker 1: with this behavioralist VET, which is hopefully the right title.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. All I know is I waited four

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Speaker 1: months and it was so worth it.

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Speaker 2: They're going to be listening and they're gonna be so

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Speaker 2: mad if you yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's okay. I gave him a lot of money, okay.

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Speaker 1: But it was the first time, besides her wonderful trainer

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Speaker 1: that we work with, that I felt like somebody really

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Speaker 1: understood my dog and that we have a very oh

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Speaker 1: and now innocent sparking in the background, which is very unhelpful.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like she's going to be on an

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Speaker 1: even better path to be her best self. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's really cool. And today's cool people who did

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Speaker 1: cool stuff is not Truman.

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Speaker 2: It's true today's cool people who did cool stuff, which

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Speaker 2: is more of a like spooky people who did spooky stuff.

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Speaker 2: Although gee, I actually came around. I expected this just

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Speaker 2: to be spooky people who did spooky stuff. I actually

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Speaker 2: came around. I actually think these people are cool people

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Speaker 2: who did cool stuff. Sophie, what do you know about druids?

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Speaker 1: I only know the basic, which is that like they're

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Speaker 1: like ancient Celtic like I don't know, like like mystical,

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Speaker 1: like preus, like mentors or like role knowledge, like the

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Speaker 1: authority figures. I guess I would say, Am I right?

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Speaker 1: Am I wrong? Like they are like somewhat mystical, but

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Speaker 1: they're definitely like in positions of authority, like teacher, priests.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the rough of it. Although what's funny is

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Speaker 2: that we know a lot of specific things beyond that,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of the specific things we have contradict

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Speaker 2: each other. Oh and so that's what you just said

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Speaker 2: is kind of the like what we can all agree on,

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Speaker 2: except actually that's not true. A lot of people are

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Speaker 2: specifically like they were not priests, but they were certainly

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Speaker 2: the philosophers and on some level religious but mostly political.

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Speaker 2: Maybe figures of the Celtic world. Okay, but I started

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Speaker 2: off being like, oh, okay, they're spooky or whatever. One

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Speaker 2: of the single main things that every version that talks

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Speaker 2: about druids with any like knowledge admits and talks about

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Speaker 2: is one of the main things they did was de

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Speaker 2: escalate conflicts. They were mediators, They were a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: They were judges, they were philosophers. They oversaw sacrifices. Probably

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about sacrifice a lot and without a lot

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Speaker 2: of clear answers, but with a lot of really interesting

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Speaker 2: it's not gonna be boring. But specifically they would go

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Speaker 2: and they would mediate conflicts between groups. They would also

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Speaker 2: sometimes be the generals and kings and things like that.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know. To the modern audience, they're probably

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Speaker 2: the most familiar modern version of a druid is like

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Speaker 2: the D and D or video game version where they

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Speaker 2: worship nature and transform into owl bears or whatever. To

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Speaker 2: the medieval imagination, they were scary secret basically witches, and

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Speaker 2: for example, there's an eighth century Irish hymn where you

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Speaker 2: can ask God for protection against the spells cast by

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Speaker 2: the three most logical when you think of people who

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Speaker 2: might cast spells against you. You obviously are going to

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Speaker 2: think of the following three categories. Druids, can't trust them, women,

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Speaker 2: am I right? And blacksmiths.

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Speaker 1: That's the trifecta from.

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Speaker 2: Hell, I know, which means before we even get into druids,

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Speaker 2: I have to go on to my first tangent, which

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Speaker 2: is about the fucking blacksmith thing.

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Speaker 1: Context, contexts context.

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Speaker 2: This is context, but this is almost more.

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Speaker 1: This is just magpie is interested in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is tripping down various rabbit holes.

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Speaker 1: So so many more.

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Speaker 2: Obviously we all understand what we need protection from women?

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Speaker 2: Why the medieval mind. Actually, something that I've covered on

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Speaker 2: the show a bunch of times is that the modern conception,

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Speaker 2: like the twentieth century conception of like women as like

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Speaker 2: meek and like docile creatures or whatever, is so completely

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Speaker 2: opposite to the medieval European conception of women. The misogyny

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Speaker 2: in the Middle Ages, instead of being like women are

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Speaker 2: weak and we can push them around, was like women

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Speaker 2: are terrifying us. Men are civilized. Women are the wild creatures.

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Speaker 1: I mean facts.

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Speaker 2: Though I know I was like, I don't mind that

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Speaker 2: one at all. A lot of the shit that like,

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Speaker 2: like with druids. Right, there's two versions of druids. There's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: they like sacrifice tons of people and we're spooky, and

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Speaker 2: then there's like, oh, they were like nice lawbringers and

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Speaker 2: they you know, did a lot of like mediation and stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I'm just very like, why not both do give?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 2: This is how I feel about it. But so I

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Speaker 2: tried to track down the Blacksmith thing.

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Speaker 1: M hmm.

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Speaker 2: I tried to find the actual hymn, but I sourced

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Speaker 2: it to a book from nineteen eighty eight, and then

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Speaker 2: I was like, I'm not going and buying this print

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Speaker 2: only book to find the specific hymn. This is a tangent.

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Speaker 1: I have to stop wait to self at it. I'm

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Speaker 1: so proud of you, thank you, thank you. It only

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Speaker 1: took what how many years have we done this podcast?

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Speaker 2: I have to admit, if I lived somewhere where delivery

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Speaker 2: was faster, I might have gotten this book do this

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Speaker 2: one thing. But I learned about this on like Monday,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, I got to record on Thursday.

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Speaker 1: I'm anyway incredible.

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Speaker 2: So in Ireland, where more of the information we have

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Speaker 2: about druids going longer comes just because it resisted, it

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Speaker 2: didn't get colonized by Rome. In Ireland, iron was a

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Speaker 2: magical medal to the early medieval mind because iron wards

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Speaker 2: off evil and it's necessary to defeat fairies. Obviously, everyone

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Speaker 2: knows these things about iron, and blacksmiths do magical shit

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Speaker 2: with iron. Blacksmiths are presented as like supernaturally strong and large.

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Speaker 2: You always want to be on their good side. You

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Speaker 2: have this classic Irish belief were counted at least into

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Speaker 2: the twentieth century that a blacksmith can curse somebody by

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Speaker 2: pointing the horn of his anvil to the east and

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Speaker 2: then pronouncing the curse. There's a story about how the

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Speaker 2: cops were going to come evict someone. A lot of

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Speaker 2: Irish curses are specifically we hate landlords, and on Easter

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Speaker 2: Sunday they were going to evict this person, and so

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Speaker 2: everyone from town went to the forge and prayed around

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Speaker 2: the anvil after moving it to the east, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then would rise up and strike it. And this

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Speaker 2: keeps the cops from evicting people, okay, And blacksmiths can

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Speaker 2: curse people to death and they're friends with the fairies.

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Speaker 2: Why does iron hurt fairies? Have you run across this

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Speaker 2: before that. No, So there's this like folkloric belief that, like,

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Speaker 2: you need cold iron to hurt fairies, kind of in

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Speaker 2: the same way that silver hurts werewolves.

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Speaker 1: Where fuck would anybody want to hurt fairies?

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Speaker 2: Well, fairies are seen as malicious forces in the medieval mind. Okay,

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Speaker 2: and specifically, spoiler, the fairies are probably representations of like

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Speaker 2: the people that you've previously colonized. Copy cold iron hurts

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Speaker 2: the fairies. Cold is just literally cold iron just literally

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Speaker 2: means like iron. It doesn't actually mean it's in the

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Speaker 2: refrigerator or whatever. It's just a poetic way of describing

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Speaker 2: it that's come down. And iron does a bunch of

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Speaker 2: magical shit. So people were really into iron. It conducts electricity.

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Speaker 2: I fell down another rabbit hole trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: who invented the lightning rod. The Internet wants you to

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Speaker 2: know it's either a check Man or Benjamin Franklin, and

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Speaker 2: the two sides are very upset about each other about this.

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Speaker 2: But around seventeen fifty people figured out the lightning rod.

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Speaker 2: But before that you had kind of lightning roddish effects, like,

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Speaker 2: for example, you would have people who would survive being

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Speaker 2: struck when they're in a belfrey and you got a

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Speaker 2: big iron bell, and then light strikes the bellfrey while

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Speaker 2: someone's ringing the bell. The ringer might survive because the

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Speaker 2: bell like conducts the electricity elsewhere and then it goes

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Speaker 2: down to the ground or whatever. I don't totally understand

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Speaker 2: this mechanism, but there's all these people saying like this

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Speaker 2: has happened. Iron magical. It defeats lightning, It defeats the gods,

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Speaker 2: it defeats the pagan gods. Iron is a sign that

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Speaker 2: the church is more powerful than foreign zeus.

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Speaker 1: And this is the Catholic Church. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is pretty Protestant shita. Yeah. The first compasses

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Speaker 2: are made of natural iron of loadstone in China thousands

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Speaker 2: of years ago. You can drop an iron needle in

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Speaker 2: a bowl of water and it'll tell you where to go.

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Speaker 2: Like I was like at first, I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: why iron? And then I like read all the shit

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, no, I get that. Like if there's

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Speaker 2: like a metal that just like fucking tells you where

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Speaker 2: to go, like that's fucking magic, you know, A compass.

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Speaker 1: No, that's fucking wizardry in the coolest way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is why horseshoes over your doorway are lucky.

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Speaker 2: They're made by blacksmiths of iron. They keep the fairies away.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea, you know, I've always known that

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Speaker 1: horseshoes are lucky, but I've never like looked into it.

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Speaker 1: That is incredibly cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then here's the part that I get. I've

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Speaker 2: read two conflicting things about the original Britons of southern

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Speaker 2: Britain and the Picts of Northern Britain. Celtic people, they're

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Speaker 2: less technologically advanced, and I have read in one source

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Speaker 2: they had weapons made out of bronze. I have read

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Speaker 2: in other sources that actually the reason that the Celts

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Speaker 2: were so successful is that they figured out iron earlier

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Speaker 2: than other people and were ahead of the time. But whatever.

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Speaker 2: At some point people are fighting. One group has iron

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Speaker 2: and the other group has bronze, and you're gonna trash

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Speaker 2: an army with bronze. If you have iron, it'll like

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Speaker 2: cut through their shields and shit. But here comes Rome.

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Speaker 2: They have iron weapons, and they're fighting these small wild

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Speaker 2: warriors who fight dirty by disappearing into the forests. They

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Speaker 2: seem to be magically appearing and disappearing through portals, and

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Speaker 2: they're like often naked and covered in blue spirals, and

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Speaker 2: like it's just fucking trippy and strange. It's surreal, like

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Speaker 2: a bunch of fairies, but the Romans of Iron. So

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Speaker 2: they just fucking killed them eventually. Booh yeah, that's the

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Speaker 2: spoiler alert for a lot of this. All right, So

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Speaker 2: the Druids, we know very very little about Druids, or

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Speaker 2: we actually know a lot of things about Druids, but

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Speaker 2: we know a lot of like kind of random specific things,

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Speaker 2: and we don't know which ones are accurate because they

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Speaker 2: are all written by people who hate the Druids. The

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Speaker 2: Druids did not write, but it wasn't that they were illiterate.

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Speaker 2: The Celts did start writing once they started running across

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Speaker 2: people with writing, but they had a specific religious prohibition

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Speaker 2: on writing down knowledge. And it's interesting their argument, at

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Speaker 2: least as Caesar represents it. We don't know that that's

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Speaker 2: true or not, but Caesar says the Druids didn't write

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Speaker 2: anything down because it wasn't a like, oh it's spooky magic,

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Speaker 2: it'll ruin everything. It's kind of like why we hate Ai.

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Speaker 2: Their argument was, if you write everything down, you'll lose

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Speaker 2: your mental capacity because you'll just rely on the written

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Speaker 2: word to remember things instead of having a well developed memory.

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Speaker 2: And I wouldn't remember anything if I couldn't write it down.

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Speaker 2: So I don't agree with this argument, but it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Modern Druidism, the modern revival religion, is seen by most

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Speaker 2: scholars as only loosely related to historical Druidism. It's basically

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Speaker 2: a reconstruction thing. And it's not that the things that

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Speaker 2: they've reconstructed are inherently wrong. It's just that they're not

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Speaker 2: inherently right either, Like they connect the dots where you

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Speaker 2: don't know what it's supposed to end up looking, Like,

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Speaker 2: you know, we have a lot of dots and you

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Speaker 2: have to try and figure out what they all look like.

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Speaker 2: But there's so many different ways you can connect them.

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Speaker 2: But the things that we do know about them are

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Speaker 2: pretty fucking cool, Like not necessarily cool isn't good, But

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Speaker 2: cool isn't like interesting. Sure, it's really really natural to

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Speaker 2: want to freeform connect the dots. I found myself doing

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Speaker 2: it constantly. I've like never before been so strongly like

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Speaker 2: drawn to be like, well, now I want to write

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Speaker 2: fiction set in this world so that I can connect

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Speaker 2: the dots. But in the shortest version of what we

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Speaker 2: think we know about the druids. In the at least

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Speaker 2: the Atlantic Celtic society like France and Britain, there was

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Speaker 2: an elite class of philosophers in the society that were

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Speaker 2: seen as the conduit between people and the gods. Their

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Speaker 2: main job was as judges, as advisors, as mediators of conflict,

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Speaker 2: and they also oversaw but were not performing rituals and sacrifice.

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Speaker 2: There's another class that are actually the sort of priests.

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Speaker 1: That was my general knowledge roughly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And it's an oral culture, so everything that

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Speaker 2: they know, including this encyclopedic knowledge of like astrology, was memorized.

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Speaker 2: Druid school was probably either nineteen or twenty years long.

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Speaker 2: But look at what age, I don't know. I would guess.

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Speaker 2: I think it's like the only thing I've seen is

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Speaker 2: that Caesar wrote that like young people went to go

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Speaker 2: study with them, So it's probably like, if I were

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Speaker 2: to guess, and this is a I guess it'd be

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Speaker 2: like thirteen years old or something. Yeah, like a young

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Speaker 2: adult in the medieval mind or.

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Speaker 1: Whatever in that time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's like twenty years of schooling when.

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Speaker 1: Life spans weren't even that great.

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Speaker 2: I know. But it's funny because like people are like, oh,

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Speaker 2: the medieval people only live to be thirty. That's not

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Speaker 2: quite true. It looks like that because so many people

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Speaker 2: died young that the average is really low. If you

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Speaker 2: make it to twenty, you might make it to fifty, sixty, seventy,

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Speaker 2: you know, sure, but still not long lived times, you know,

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Speaker 2: and you're going to twenty years of school, okay. The

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Speaker 2: other way that people can sceptualize the druids, though, one

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Speaker 2: that I find fairly convincing, is that it was less

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Speaker 2: of like a secret society that you join or a

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Speaker 2: job in society to be a Druid, as much as

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Speaker 2: it was an intellectual class of people. And specifically there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of comparisons. There's this whole thing. We covered

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Speaker 2: it on one of our episodes, the episode about hunger

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Speaker 2: strikes and how hunger strikes are found in India and

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Speaker 2: Ireland in the legal structure, and how India and Ireland

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Speaker 2: have like all of these wild overlaps in terms of

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Speaker 2: legal structures and cultural things and language, and it's because

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Speaker 2: of the proto Indo European people kind of spread out

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Speaker 2: as far as they could, and the edges are where

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Speaker 2: more of the original ideas stayed. So people presented as

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Speaker 2: a cast thing also. And I'm not as convinced by this,

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Speaker 2: but I read a historian who didn't know its way

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Speaker 2: more ra others than I do that he's like, this

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Speaker 2: is the intellectual caste of the Celtic people, which makes

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Speaker 2: me like it less because I'm not a big fan

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Speaker 2: of that because I have friends who have fled India

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Speaker 2: because of caste society. But yeah, it's the intelligentsia. It's

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Speaker 2: the like, oh, I went to school, but instead of

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Speaker 2: going to get bachelor's and now you're the educated people.

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Speaker 2: You're going for twenty fucking years. And we know for

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Speaker 2: certain that they start existing around the fourth century b

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Speaker 2: as foreigners start writing about them, but there's decent enough

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Speaker 2: evidence that they might have been around a couple thousand

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Speaker 2: years before that. People argue about whether or not they

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Speaker 2: like predate, even the Celts and all this shit. I

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Speaker 2: don't know whatever. Then Celtic society was fucked up by

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Speaker 2: the Romans, who wrote long tracks about how evil the

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Speaker 2: Celtic religion was and how evil the Druids were, And

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Speaker 2: so most of the writing we have about druids is

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Speaker 2: Romans who are writing propaganda to defend themselves, going to

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Speaker 2: war to kill all the Celts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because they want to do they want a genocide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which they did do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. What we have is like trying to learn about

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Speaker 2: Islam by reading like history. Yeah yeah. And so there's

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Speaker 2: kind of no reason to trust almost anything that's been

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Speaker 2: written about them. But there's also no reason to assume

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Speaker 2: that the things that are written about them are inherently lies. Okay,

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Speaker 2: and pretty often, Sophie, you're probably familiar with this. I

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Speaker 2: get pretty far along in my show, my script, and

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Speaker 2: then some big thing that was not addressed, usually has

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Speaker 2: how the subject relates to women comes along. This week

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Speaker 2: is no exception.

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Speaker 1: Cool cuck Cool.

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Speaker 2: I read a whole last book about druids by this

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Speaker 2: esteemed scholar that basically never mentioned women except as a

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Speaker 2: throwaway line about Oh, and then there's like some women

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Speaker 2: in black moving among the soldiers, actually quoted specifically later

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Speaker 2: in the script. So you had to learn more about that,

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Speaker 2: uh huh. And so then I started looking at other

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Speaker 2: books that I on the subject, and other articles and

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Speaker 2: things like that, and like this book that I read

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Speaker 2: just completely assumes Celtic culture's patriarchal. All of the people

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Speaker 2: involved are men. There's no reason to assume that, And

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Speaker 2: there's so many reasons to assume the opposite, like all

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Speaker 2: of the evidence, both archaeological and in written at the station,

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Speaker 2: and like oral traditions and all these other things that

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Speaker 2: there are women Druids, like to the point where they

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Speaker 2: might not even be like, oh we women and every

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Speaker 2: now and then it might have just been like fucking

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Speaker 2: genderlest thing. And we also know that there are people

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Speaker 2: from that time period writing about how the Celts were

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Speaker 2: ruled by men and women equally. So I read the

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Speaker 2: wrong book first, as per usual, basically, And what's interesting

349
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Speaker 2: about this, the erasing of women from the story of

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Speaker 2: Druids is actually playing into the hands of the Romans,

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Speaker 2: the people who destroyed the Druids, who were a much

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Speaker 2: more patriarchal society. Jean Marcel wrote in nineteen seventy two

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Speaker 2: about this. He wrote, the Druids represented an absolute threat

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Speaker 2: to the Roman state because their science and philosophy dangerously

355
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:47,360
Speaker 2: contradicted Roman orthodoxy. The Romans were materialistics, the Druids spiritual.

356
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Speaker 2: For the Romans, the state was a monolithic structure spread

357
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Speaker 2: over territories, deliberately organized into a hierarchy. With the Druids,

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Speaker 2: it was a freely consented moral order with an entirely

359
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,719
Speaker 2: mythical central idea. The Romans base their law on private

360
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,359
Speaker 2: ownership of land, with property rights entirely vested in the

361
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Speaker 2: head of the family, whereas the Druids always considered ownership collective.

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Speaker 2: The Romans looked upon women as bearers of children and

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Speaker 2: objects of pleasure, while the Druids included women in their

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Speaker 2: political and religious life. So that's when I now turned

365
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 2: it around to oh, this is not just spooky people

366
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Speaker 2: did spooky stuff. This is cool people that did cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: Was Yeah, the Celtic culture was far more interesting than

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Speaker 2: the Roman one.

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Speaker 1: To me, Yeah, I'm just marinating on it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: And now I want to know. I mean, there's like

371
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Speaker 2: obviously like entire degree programs around Celtic studies and things

372
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Speaker 2: like that, and there's going to be arguments this way

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Speaker 2: and that about go ahead.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, what's the sourcing on this?

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Speaker 2: So that one I am reading a book written in

376
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Speaker 2: ninety four quoting someone from nineteen seventy two. The book

377
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Speaker 2: that I disagree with more was written more recently and

378
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 2: is a little bit more objective. So there is this

379
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 2: like thing that people are doing where they're kind of like, no, no, no,

380
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 2: the Celts are cool though, right, and I want to

381
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Speaker 2: believe that, So I am like trying to be careful

382
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 2: of my own thing around that. But I do find

383
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Speaker 2: that this maps, This idea that the Celts have a

384
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Speaker 2: much more communal way of life, maps with everything I

385
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 2: have learned over the course of all these years, like

386
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Speaker 2: especially when I'm reading about Irish history, where Celtic traditions

387
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,199
Speaker 2: lasted much longer, where there's all of these ways of

388
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Speaker 2: having your town be like you divide up the land

389
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Speaker 2: so that everyone is farming with equal access to good

390
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: land a farm and things like that, and there's like

391
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,960
Speaker 2: the land is usually sort of collectively owned but then

392
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Speaker 2: individually worked. And it's not like anarchist communism or whatever

393
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 2: the fuck, right, but it is a very very different

394
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,160
Speaker 2: economic system and a much more fair one. And there

395
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 2: is a lot of voting, although even this more biased

396
00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 2: author points out that like the voting is among everyone

397
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,479
Speaker 2: gets to vote for someone from the intellectual class. You know,

398
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 2: it's not like what we would necessarily call democracy.

399
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 1: No, it sounds like limited democracy.

400
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then the other thing is that it's like

401
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: we're also talking about like a huge chunk of area

402
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: over thousands of years, and so there seems to be

403
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 2: an idea that I'm fairly convinced by that they moved

404
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 2: more towards patriarchy further along, especially once they had contact

405
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 2: with the Romans, but even before that they were moving

406
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: more in that direction. And the main evidence we have

407
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 2: about druids comes in two forms. There's archaeological evidence, mostly

408
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 2: about the Celtic culture, written large because there's not a

409
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 2: ton of archaeological evidence that's like here's a druid, right, sure.

410
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 2: And then there's anecdotes written by these early Greek and

411
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 2: Roman observers, and many of the original manuscripts are long lost,

412
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: but we have scholars quoting those sources reasonably extensive, Like

413
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Speaker 2: there'll be a Greek guy and he'd be like, ah,

414
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Speaker 2: I'll live with the Celts for a long time, and

415
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: I wrote a whole book about him, and then that

416
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: book is long gone. But there's all of these books

417
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 2: where people are like, oh, yeah, I read that book

418
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 2: and I like this quote. So it'd be like if

419
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: people had to reconstruct ancient history by only having cool

420
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 2: people who did cool stuff scripts And it reminds me

421
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 2: of the importance of sourcing and quotings. Yeah, there's also

422
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 2: stuff we know about them that comes from oral tradition

423
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Speaker 2: and legend carried mostly in Ireland because the Romans never

424
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 2: got there and Scotland to some degree also, and then

425
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 2: it was written down in the ninth to eleventh century

426
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,360
Speaker 2: by Christian monks. But their stuff is also it's far

427
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 2: more speculative, it's more removed from the time period, and

428
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: everyone's got a bias. Yeah, right, Like all the Romans

429
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: are like trying to write Islamophobia so they can go

430
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: destroy the place, and the Christian monks are trying to

431
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 2: be like and this is why it's good that we're

432
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 2: in charge now.

433
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because, like I mean to simplify, oral tradition

434
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: is word of mouth. Yeah, so somebody told a story

435
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: to somebody, who told a story, who told a story,

436
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: who told a story to someone to someone to someone

437
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: to someone.

438
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 2: For a thousand years, for a thousand years.

439
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 1: It's like the game of telephone.

440
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is interesting because like that is how Druidic

441
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: knowledge was always passed on, and I wonder whether one

442
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: of the reasons that they did it. This is entirely speculation.

443
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: I could see them doing it so that the law

444
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: and the things that are true are allowed to shift generationally, right,

445
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: because like if it's all word of mouth, everyone's interpreting

446
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: the law every you know, generation or so. But do

447
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: you know what, Sophie is a constant in the universe. Potato,

448
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 2: that's right, which they didn't have access to at the time,

449
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 2: but eventually they would and it would be very good.

450
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 2: And that is why we are sponsored by the concept

451
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: of potatoes. You can eat them, you can make clocks

452
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: out of them. I think I think I did that

453
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: when I was a kid.

454
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: I had a fantastic potato. My parents celebrated their forty

455
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: first wedding anniversary and I took them out to dinner

456
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: and this restaurant had grilled like potatoes and it was

457
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: like yukung gold grilled potatoes, and it was magical.

458
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 2: That sounds so good, and I wish all.

459
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: The good people could have grilled potatoes.

460
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: I got to eat a meal of potatoes I grew

461
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 2: for the first time in the past couple weeks.

462
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: That's so cool.

463
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 2: This is my third year of trying to grow potatoes,

464
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 2: and this year I succeeded to greater degrees than previously. Anyway,

465
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: that's probably the only ad. But in case there any

466
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 2: others are trying to say something, we'll just let them

467
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 2: do it here.

468
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: And we're back.

469
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 2: So to talk about the Druids, we have to talk

470
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 2: about your favorite sports team, the Celtics.

471
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: That was really mean.

472
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 2: That was apparently meaner than I. Yeah, completely under to

473
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: the Celtics. It's spelled the same. It actually probably is related.

474
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: But in order to talk about the Druids, we have

475
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: to talk about the Celts, the people, not the sports team.

476
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: Why is it racist and overrated? Oh?

477
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: Probably, To be honest, the Celts are probably racist and overrated.

478
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: That is probably true. I don't know one way or

479
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: the other about how the Celts perceived race. I only

480
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: know a little bit more about how Medio Irish people did.

481
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: Celtics fans don't DM me. I don't care. My opinion's

482
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 1: never changing.

483
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: The Celtic fans you can DM me, but I won't

484
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 2: have any idea what you're talking about. If you had

485
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 2: asked me an hour ago what sport the Celtics played,

486
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: I would have said Boston.

487
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: That works.

488
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 2: Are they from Boston? Yes, okay, I thought so. All right,

489
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 2: Now it helps that we have a lot more information

490
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: about the celt sorry, the Celts, more broadly than a

491
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: specific social strata. Like we know more about Celtic culture

492
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 2: than Druids. But you can't talk about one Celtic culture

493
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 2: and be accurate. You're talking about a bunch of different

494
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: cultures over the span of thousands of years. So things

495
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 2: are gonna be real differ. Like take a white North American.

496
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 2: It is a different culture now than five hundred years ago. Right,

497
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 2: things are not static, even in the before civilization times.

498
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: I had always been told that the Celts were an

499
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: ethnic group. This is not true. It is more accurate

500
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 2: to say that Celts are the people who spoke a

501
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: Celtic language these days by that standard, which is actually

502
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 2: kind of cool, because it was never an ethnic group,

503
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: which actually means that, like, you know a lot of

504
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: people who are trying to be racist, like do nationalism wrong? Whatever? Anyway,

505
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: So the remaining Celts, by this standard, the people who

506
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 2: speak the Celtic language. You're pretty much talking about people

507
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: in Wales, Brittany, which is northwest France and Ireland, with

508
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: Scotland trying to revive its Gaelic language as well, and

509
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: in Brittany some people still speak Breton. Previously, people tended

510
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 2: to think that Celtic culture came from the east and

511
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 2: settled what we would call Atlantic Europe, like basically from

512
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: the West coast to the Iberian Peninsula like Spain and Portugal,

513
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: up through the Netherlands. In Britain and Ireland, during the Renaissance,

514
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: people thought that the Celts actually came from Anatolia Turkey,

515
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 2: but no one thinks this anymore. But the reason I

516
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: think that, which I think is kind of interesting. The Galatians,

517
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 2: who Paul wrote a letter to in the Bible. If

518
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: you ever go to a church and they're like Paul

519
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: to the Galatians or whatever the fuck right, the Galatians

520
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: were Celtics, Celtic people who were I apparently broke Sophie.

521
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: I really hope none of my Catholic relatives ever listened

522
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: to this.

523
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: Come on, why would you be a fan of Paul.

524
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: Paul's not the best of them. Paul's just a jerk,

525
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: I mean whatever. So the Galatians were Celtic people living

526
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: in what we've called Swanna now, right, and because the

527
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: Celts did travel really far, but they didn't come from there.

528
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: So what people say more recently is that they're like, oh,

529
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: we think the Celts came from roughly Switzerland, like the

530
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: middle of Europe, and then migrate out in every direction

531
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: and then it happened to only stick around successfully in

532
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: the very west. But modern scholarship seems to hold that

533
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: the Celts actually start as an Atlantic European culture like Brittany,

534
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: Ireland and Britain and western Iberia, and then they actually

535
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: migrated east from there and did get as far as

536
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: Anatolia and like have the Galatians, and again it's less

537
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: of an ethnic group and more of a language group. Basically,

538
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: there's all of these people. They're living along the coast,

539
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: they're trading all the time, and they're like, this will

540
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: probably be easier if we spoke the same language. And

541
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: they're probably speaking kind of similar languages anyway, because they're

542
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: coming from the same proto Indo European language group.

543
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, communication is cool.

544
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's where probably the Celts come from. Whereas

545
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: the Celtic language itself as part of the Indo European

546
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: language family, which modern scholars tends to assume started in

547
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: the steps of Western Asia near the Black Sea and

548
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: spread out from there. And you've got the Celts and

549
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: they're doing all right over in Atlantic Europe and they

550
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: start spreading east, and like everyone else in Europe at

551
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: the time, they're not doing any writing. And when they

552
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 2: do start writing, after connecting with like ancient Greece and

553
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: the later Rome, they write in Greek characters in the

554
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: later the Latin alphabet. But they also have a religious

555
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: thing where they're not supposed to write down like important things. Yeah,

556
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: and so mostly like stuff that's written down is like names.

557
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: Do we know, like what why that transition exists? Is

558
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: it something like it was too holy or is it

559
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: not exp Well, it's because they didn't write it down,

560
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: so is it not necessarily explained.

561
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: So we don't have from their point of view. But

562
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: what Caesar says is that the Celts believed it would

563
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: fuck their memories up if they wrote stuff down.

564
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: That's so interesting.

565
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, other people assume it was about keeping

566
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: information secret and like being like only the cool click

567
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 2: has it right, But like most places that do that

568
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: write books and then just don't let them go into circulation,

569
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: you know, keep them in one place, and the Irish celts.

570
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: Eventually they are writing in ogum, which is like lines

571
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: with other lines coming off of it. It's really pretty.

572
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 2: But that doesn't show up until the fourth century CE,

573
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: so this has already passed. The era of druids is

574
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: a big thing anywhere but Ireland. And the Greeks show

575
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: up around six hundred BCE in southern France in Marseille.

576
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 2: They found the Colony of Marseille. And the more I

577
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: read ancient history, the more I'm like, the fucking ancient

578
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: world was so intense. It is so fucking metal, at

579
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: least in Europe, where I've read the most about it.

580
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: It is full of such dark shit. The ancient Greeks

581
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: show up in Gaul, you know, France, they found the

582
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: Marseille and they meet one of the most into skulls

583
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 2: and decapitated heads cultures that's ever existed. There are temples everywhere,

584
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: these Celtic temples, and I think there may be open

585
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: air from what I've read, but they're just covered in

586
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: pillars filled with human skulls. Alcove after alcove for skulls,

587
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: and not just skulls, but also decapitated heads, loss of

588
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: decapitated heads.

589
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: Oh oh.

590
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 2: Having been to the catacombs under Paris, I can say

591
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: the French have just never changed. It's just kept on

592
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: and there's only so much we know about the Celtic religion.

593
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: And there's more of this like skull time stuff happening

594
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: in southern France than elsewhere. Like basically, if you got

595
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: into Britain, there's like some skull stuff happening, but it's

596
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: like southern France is just like skull Town, and the

597
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: heads come from three places. Probably there's the remains of

598
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: people who died sort of normally that are then collected

599
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 2: and brought back to decorate the town. And then there's

600
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: head hunting, which is almost certainly happening. And basically in

601
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: southern France, if you go and you fight, and you

602
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: kill someone in battle, you bring back their head and

603
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: you nail it to the door of your house and

604
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: then you preserve it with oil. And when one trader

605
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: was like, hey, I want to buy some of those heads,

606
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: people were like, I will never sell you the head.

607
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: It is like there's no amount of gold you could

608
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: give me to sell this head. And then there's probably

609
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: human sacrifice. We don't know for certain, but they almost

610
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 2: certainly sacrifice people. There's some archaeological evidence that heavily suggests it.

611
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: And then there's attestation after attestation by their enemies saying

612
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: that they sacrifice people. When I say that they sacrifice

613
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: people and did hud hunting and all this stuff, I'm

614
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: not trying to separate them out from anyone else during

615
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: this time period, Like southern France was like probably more

616
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: specifically into heads and skulls than the average place. But

617
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: almost everyone is sacrificing humans in the ancient world, at

618
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: least anywhere near this area, and lots of other places

619
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: cross the world.

620
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an unfortunate trend.

621
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have this thing where like that's still

622
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: used as like the reason why civilization is good, And

623
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: I'm not civilization by one definition, like Western civilization coming

624
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: and telling everyone what to do or whatever, right, like, oh,

625
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: this is necessary, we needed to invade Mexico because we

626
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: had to stop the Aztecs, or like, you know, there's

627
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: a lot of behind the bastards on the like people

628
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 2: who are like, oh, we're just trying to stop the

629
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: slave trade in Africa and that's why we're colonizing and

630
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 2: murdering everyone there, right, But if you look at the

631
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: ancient world, it's full of this pretty brutal stuff. But

632
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 2: the thing is is that the like state just comes

633
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 2: in and systematizes it instead. Like the wildest execution methods

634
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: I've ever read were not Pagans. They were Christians in Europe,

635
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 2: tying people in the sacks and throwing them off of

636
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 2: buildings and shit. You know. And and basically this matters

637
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: because this is why people argue about the human sacrifice thing.

638
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: People who want to believe the Celts are good are

639
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: going to downplay or say the sacrifice didn't happen, and

640
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 2: people who want to say, no, the Romans are good

641
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: are going to play up the human sacrifice. And again

642
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: I'm just like kind of onlike both, Like, I don't know,

643
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: they probably did it. It still was better than being

644
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 2: genocided whatever. Like, considering Rome is going to come in

645
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: and kill a third of the people in gaul Over

646
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: like only a couple of years, they're going to come

647
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: in and kill a third of the people there and

648
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: enslave a third of people there, I'm like, you would

649
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: have had to sacrifice so many people every day to

650
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: come anywhere near the evil that Rome is going to do.

651
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's evil, and there's evil, then there's evil, then

652
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: there's e Well then there's Rome.

653
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah exactly. But do you know, Sophie, what's not evil.

654
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: Potatoes?

655
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, unless they're getting green, in which

656
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 2: case it's a little bit of evil coming in. It's

657
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 2: a little bit of evil. But you can peel that

658
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: right off and get to the good, non green potato underneath,

659
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: and we're back. The Celts had a bunch of different

660
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: funeral practices, The most famous are the ones that we

661
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 2: see evidence of today. Obviously, everyone knows the word barrow, right,

662
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 2: that's a normal word that normal people use. I thought that,

663
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: you know, the word barrow means in casual conversation.

664
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: I don't like I'm thinking of like a wheelbarrow, or

665
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: like there's like a city in Alaska.

666
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: Well that's a metal name for a city.

667
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

668
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: I wrote a whole book called The Barrow Will Send

669
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: what it may thinking normal people knew what the word

670
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 2: barrow meant. They don't. Barrows are burial mounds?

671
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: Ah, I mean, you know, well.

672
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 2: The Celts were building barrow mounds at least going back

673
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: to the third and fourth century BCE. You build a

674
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 2: wooden or stone place to inter the dead, like kind

675
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 2: of like a family tomb, and then when it's full

676
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 2: or the family line is dead or whatever, you dig

677
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: trenches alongside it and you put all that dirt on

678
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: top of it, and you build a big hill or

679
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: a little hill, a big mound, little hill. I walked

680
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: on one of these ones outside Stonehenge, and I think

681
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: a fox ran up the hill and it was cool

682
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: as hell, But I like have don't believe my own

683
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: memory about it because it just feels too on the.

684
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: Nose, so magical. No, that happened. That fucking happened to you.

685
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: I remember it. Yeah, that was fucking cool. And so

686
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: those are the barrows, right, and there's evidence of them

687
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: all over Britain at least where you know, you have

688
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 2: these big hills, and the dead were buried with grave

689
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 2: goods like jewelry and weapons and shit, and in general

690
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: people would assume meaning like, oh, you need this in afterlife.

691
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 2: But actually the Celtic religion was actually more into reincarnation,

692
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: which is another in comparison to the Far East and

693
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 2: proto Windo European culture, and so it's probable that the

694
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 2: grave goods might have been like, oh, you'll need these

695
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 2: later for your next life, but they might have been

696
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 2: more When someone dies, you put their body on display,

697
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 2: and then all of the family members and stuff come

698
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 2: leave grave goods and sacrifice and it's a way of

699
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: like and then it's all buried together. And so it's

700
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: kind of a like showing off your familial wealth. It's

701
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: like how much shit can you bury with the dead?

702
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: Got it? Like, Oh, we don't need this right now,

703
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: we're putting this forward for the next.

704
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just like, well, it's less about it becoming

705
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: useful and like they're really into sacrifice is like a

706
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: way of showing I think probably as a way of

707
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: showing wealth. Is just like yeah, we don't need this,

708
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 2: we you know, or we're giving this up. We can

709
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: give up more than you can give up. And this

710
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: is how the elite were buried for thousands of years

711
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: through the Celtic world. But most people weren't interred in

712
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 2: the earth. Most people didn't have crypts with family tombs

713
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 2: and burial goods. Far and away the most common form

714
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: of burial was what's called and this is a word

715
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 2: I didn't know, but it's my new favorite word. X carnation.

716
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: It's sky burial is the other thing that I've heard of.

717
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 2: You leave a body out for the birds and shit.

718
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: Oh that's dark.

719
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: That's dark.

720
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: I don't love that.

721
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 2: Oh oh well it's gonna get darker. Oh cool. I

722
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: was so excited about the word xcarnate that I was like,

723
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 2: I'm not even gonna say it'd be a good band

724
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: name on the show, because like, I don't want anyone

725
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: to steal it. But then I looked it up myself

726
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 2: and on Encyclopedia Metalum or Metallium or whatever the fuck

727
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 2: the like Wikipedia of Bands, and it informed me that Xcarnate,

728
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: the death metal band from Melbourne, Australia, is not to

729
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: be confused that the death metal band xcarnated from Melbourne

730
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 2: or Australia, so that was taken.

731
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: Also, I just learned that Barrow, Alaska is no longer

732
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: called Barrow, Alaska, and it is now called I'm gonna

733
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: try to pronounce this correctly wit Kiavik. Fucking you know.

734
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: It's like want of like located in the super north

735
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: of the Arctic Circle. It's like one of the northernmost

736
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: cities in towns.

737
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: That's cool. I'm glad that they got their name back.

738
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they got their name back. So bye bye barrow.

739
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: Yeah got barrow, got barrowed.

740
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, just buried. I bet barrow and buried have the

741
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 2: same whatever.

742
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, Like I'm like really thinking about this cause like, ah,

743
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: it's so cool that they got there because like it's

744
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: a huge indigenous community there. I'm sure it's a very

745
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: small town, but like it's so cool they got their

746
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: name back.

747
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. So after the dead are picked over by birds,

748
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 2: when they're excarnated, people would just go out and collect

749
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: the remains I guess mostly bones, but honestly knowing the

750
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: Celts might have been full on gore and then bring

751
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: them back home to venerate or decorate. And if I

752
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 2: ever start an excarnation home remodeling show, it's going to

753
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 2: be called decorate to venerate. It is sort of meaningful

754
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 2: that some of the dead and Celtic society are going

755
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: to the earth and barrows, and some are being eaten

756
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 2: by the birds and going up to the sky. Because

757
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 2: while most of what we know about their religionist conjecture

758
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: in general. To Barry Cunleaf, he said, quote A simple

759
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 2: underlying pattern can be discerned, which may be characterized as

760
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: the balance of opposites between the Earth and the sky,

761
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: the fertile earth providing the sustenance essential for the community's

762
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: well being, the ever consistent sky offering the signs that

763
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 2: chart the passage of time. Both were inhabited by gods

764
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: who had to be cajoled and placated, and so at death,

765
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: one group of people go to the earth and one

766
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: of the two realms, and the other people go to

767
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 2: the other realm, the sky. And I don't think this

768
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: is a heaven and hell thing, for yes.

769
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: That seems to be like what would be the most

770
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 1: literal to like common Western knowledge. What do you interpret

771
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: that as?

772
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: I suspect that it's like the elite are going to

773
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,959
Speaker 2: the earth and everyone else is going to the sky,

774
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 2: which by Western heaven and hell means the rich are

775
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: going to hell. Yeah, And I think that's cool, but

776
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, because also eventually you get cremation

777
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 2: on funeral pyres, and once they start doing that, part

778
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: of the body goes to the sky and then the

779
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 2: ashes are buried in the earth, and so you get

780
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: this almost like more holistic, you kind of get both

781
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: okay cool and as part of their general religious practices,

782
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 2: you've got pillars and pits, which, if I'm on a

783
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,479
Speaker 2: naming kick, is what I would name a ye oldie

784
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: Celtic role playing game. Most people know about Stonehenge, where

785
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: you've got these huge stones upright with cross pieces and

786
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 2: an altar and it's like perfectly calculated to cast light

787
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: with the sun on the solstices, and shit, there's a

788
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 2: lot of henges going on. Two miles away from Stonehenge

789
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 2: was Woodhenge I'm actually afraid of. Like one book I

790
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 2: read just like talked about this as being the Celts,

791
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 2: and then another book I read was like this is

792
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: the proto Celts. They're very different, and I'm like, I

793
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: don't fucking know, you're both fucking academics that they were

794
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: supposed to make sources. I trust whatever. Anyway, it certainly

795
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: maps well that. So there's another henge near Stonehenge called Woodhenge.

796
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: I want a Henge in my yard.

797
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 2: I know. Henges are cool as fuck. Have you ever

798
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 2: seeing the movie twenty seven years later came out this Yere? Yeah, yeah,

799
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: you know there's like the pillars of skulls in it. Yeah, yeah,

800
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: I thought that was just a cool, weird image.

801
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: It's back to Henges.

802
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 2: It fits what we know about the Celts. There's no

803
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 2: specific evidence that they had like a pillar where they

804
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 2: just stacked skulls, but this idea of building these like

805
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: if you look at the reconstructions that people try and

806
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: put together of like ancient open air temples, it's all

807
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: of these like pillars, it's these like like a field

808
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 2: of and like uprights or upright stones. So the idea

809
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: of them being full like made out of skulls, especially

810
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: since they literally would put skulls on a lot of them,

811
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 2: is totally fitting.

812
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, like when they use so there's that popular book

813
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: and TV show Outlander, like she goes back in time

814
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: through Henges.

815
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Oh that annoys me because I haven't seen that.

816
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 2: But I've been specifically thinking, to be really funny if

817
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: I would write a book where it would be the

818
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: Druids are doing human sacrifice, but it's actually just time

819
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 2: travelers coming from the future and they're like fuck future people.

820
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: They keep killing them as soon as they show up.

821
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: I don't know like much about that book or that

822
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: that thing, but like my knowledge only comes from my

823
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: mom who would have had that on at some point

824
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: and I was like, ooh henges.

825
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so henges are like a big thing, but

826
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: mostly actually in Britain and not in rest of Celtic area.

827
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: I want a henge.

828
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, you should build a henge. Oh now I'm like, Oh,

829
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: I live on acres, I could build a hinge. Magpie,

830
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: this is what I should do with my life. This

831
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 2: is the kind of wingnut. I should become magpie. You

832
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: want to build a henge together? Yes, make sure to

833
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: subscribe to Cooler Zone Media so that we have enough

834
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 2: money to build henges old.

835
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: Hinges on like both coasts of a bit like.

836
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: Oh, and then we can just get connect through to

837
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 2: each other.

838
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: That way East coast, West coast hinges. Okay, this is

839
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: a great plan. Sorry listeners, Yeah, sorry, friendship, that is

840
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: happening here.

841
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 2: So this woodhnge is six concentric rings of posts and

842
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 2: at the center is a burial mound and this will

843
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: be the darkest moment of the episode. Inside the mound

844
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: are the remains of a three year old boy whose

845
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 2: skull was split open.

846
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 3: Oh.

847
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: He was probably sacrificed to make the place holy.

848
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: Oh.

849
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: Others think that the weight of the earth split the

850
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 2: skull later. It also seems possible to me that I'm like,

851
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 2: I don't know, I could imagine them burying this kid

852
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 2: and then building the templar around it.

853
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: But I hope it was not. I hope it was quick. Yeah. Yeah.

854
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 2: And we can't actually go and look at the skeleton

855
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: anymore because it was an earth probably in about nineteen

856
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: twenty six or so when it was discovered, but it

857
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 2: was moved to London, and then the Nazis blew it

858
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 2: up during the Blitz in World War Two, so we

859
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: can't analyze the evidence anymore.

860
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: Another reason to hate the Nazis if you need it.

861
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: I know, we didn't need more. But there's another one.

862
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 2: I know. And so they have these pillars, right, and

863
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 2: these hinges, but you've also got these pits they're digging.

864
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 2: And when I first read about these pits, you know

865
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: how when like anthropologist are always like, oh, and everything

866
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: is religion, Like when we don't understand a thing, we're like,

867
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: it's a religious artifact, you know, hu, And it seems

868
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: kind of silly. When I first read about all these

869
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 2: pits and the history and I was reading, was like, ah, yes,

870
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 2: these are religious pits, and I'm like, I don't know, man,

871
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: maybe they're just like buryings stuff, or like maybe there

872
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: were wells because some of them were wells, or they.

873
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: Were like a lot of people use pits to cook too.

874
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:09,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're digging like twenty meters deep pits.

875
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: Oh that way, that's a very large pit.

876
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Then it's possible that they were using some of

877
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: them as wells, and then when they stopped using them

878
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: as well as they start depositing stuff in them. But

879
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: they would basically just dig these holes as deep as

880
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: they could and then they would just throw stuff down

881
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 2: there and bury it. Some of them probably started as wells,

882
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: some of them start as granaries and cachets. But they're

883
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 2: doing this thing called deposition, where you ritualistically put items

884
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 2: into the earth or water as sacrifice. And so there's

885
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: like bronze axe heads down there, but there's also like

886
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: the remains of a guy who sure looked tied up,

887
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:52,919
Speaker 2: you know. But burying valuables is an important version of sacrifice.

888
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 2: And to talk about what that sacrifice means and about

889
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 2: how the whole burning people in Wickerman this is the

890
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: reason I'm pretty excited. You're the guest I know, you're

891
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: a big Fanily, it's.

892
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: One of my favorite movies, The Original Motherfuckers.

893
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, probably accurate. The Wickerman thing.

894
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 1: Wow, I wish Sarah Marshall was here. I know Sarah

895
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: and I watch Wickerman at least once a year together.

896
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: Every year, it's our tradition.

897
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: I listen to the soundtrack of Wickerman a lot.

898
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm so good.

899
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 2: The song they sing while they're burning the guy in

900
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 2: a Wickerman is a Oh, it's a oldest It's the

901
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: oldest quote unquote secular song in English that was written

902
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 2: in English. And it's funny because they're like secular song

903
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 2: and you're like, no, motherfuckers, that's pagan. It's pagan. It's

904
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 2: just not Christian.

905
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: Incredible. If you don't like the Landlord's Daughter song, What's

906
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: wrong with You?

907
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 4: What's wrong with you? That song a bop talking bob

908
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 4: good way to do a creepy atmosphere. After reading all

909
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 4: of this, I was like, I understand why the best

910
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 4: folk car from Britain now, like, the best folk car

911
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 4: is like what if we were Celts again, and with

912
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,439
Speaker 4: all of the positives and negatives involved in that, That's

913
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 4: what full car is.

914
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 2: Wow? Is this my cliffhanger it is, and the rest

915
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: of my cliffhanger is that we'll also talk about why

916
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 2: the Druids lasted longer in Ireland and how kings were

917
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: bathing into blood well into the supposedly Christian era base,

918
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 2: and we'll talk about that on Wednesday. Wow uh the plugs.

919
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 2: Cool Zone Media makes a bunch of cool stuff Cooler

920
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 2: Zone Media. If you subscribe, it means there's no ads.

921
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 1: Season two of saddle Ligarc is dropping episodes now. Oh shit,

922
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: it's really fucking good. Jake henri Hen is really a

923
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: like the first episode of the season might be my

924
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: favorite episode of a podcast that Jake's ever put out.

925
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: It's so funny.

926
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 2: Oh shit, Okay, yeah, Jake is one of my favorite podcasters.

927
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: So and the art is cool and each episode has

928
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 1: like custom art too, and that's really fun.

929
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 2: Cool Chick's so cool and.

930
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 1: Detail oriented and a pleasure to work with. Sock check

931
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: that out and remember pet a dog, but only if

932
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 1: they want you to.

933
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, see all Wednesday.

934
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 1: Bye.

935
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 3: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

936
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

937
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 3: visit our website Goozonemedia dot com. Or check us out

938
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 3: on I Heard Radio

939
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: App hop, a podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.