Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Mo. I'm excited to report that I'll
Speaker 1: be sharing brand new Mobituaries starting on January eleven. In
Speaker 1: the meantime, i'd like you to hear a special conversation
Speaker 1: I recorded with my CBS News colleague and friend Major
Speaker 1: Garrett back in November. Major has a terrific podcast called
Speaker 1: The Takeout, and as the name would suggest, most episodes
Speaker 1: are taped over a meal. For this chat, we dined
Speaker 1: together at Trattoria del Arte, across from Carnegie Hall here
Speaker 1: in New York City. We talked in depth about season
Speaker 1: three of Mobituaries while gnashing on barata and octopus. Actually
Speaker 1: I did all the eating, which I feel kind of
Speaker 1: bad about. I really don't mind sharing, really, unless it's
Speaker 1: a wet dessert. I will not share a wet dessert.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. It is way too intimate. Anyway, I got
Speaker 1: to tell Major how some of this season's episodes came
Speaker 1: to be. You'll also hear me talk about an episode
Speaker 1: of Mobituaries we have coming up later in the month,
Speaker 1: the story of Samantha's Math, the ten year old girl
Speaker 1: from Maine whose letter to then Soviet premier Eurie and
Speaker 1: drop Hop in the nineteen eighties made headlines. Here is
Speaker 1: that episode of The Takeout, hosted by CBS News Chief
Speaker 1: Washington Correspondent Major Garrett, featuring Me Morocca as his guest
Speaker 1: five four three two one. But who's counting right? His
Speaker 1: name is Major, Lady and gentleman. Please welcome Major Garrett
Speaker 1: from the Nation's capital. Major fantastic. It's the Takeout. This
Speaker 1: is a major team with CBS News Chief Washington Correspondent
Speaker 1: Major Garrett, s CBS f s Major Garrett. Major, that's nonsense.
Speaker 1: Brother is Major out of the dog house answers, Yes,
Speaker 1: welcome to the red best part of my broadcast week.
Speaker 1: Know we are winding to a close of the year
Speaker 1: two and this episode is going to be particularly special
Speaker 1: for me because it's about a topic I love. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's a topic you love too. It's a podcast, not
Speaker 1: this one. There's no podcast I love more than this one.
Speaker 1: You know that, my dear friends. But it's very close.
Speaker 1: Mobituaries Obituaries is the beautiful, luminous journalistic work of Mo Rocca. Mo.
Speaker 1: It's great to see you, thanks for being with you,
Speaker 1: and I mean this. It is an amazing achievement. I
Speaker 1: love every episode. I immerse myself in every episode and
Speaker 1: I am enriched by every episode. I'm just gonna fanboy
Speaker 1: on you for like the next forty five minutes. If
Speaker 1: that's okay, It is totally fine. And I did bring
Speaker 1: my wallet, by the way, unless this is no no,
Speaker 1: dinner is always on us here at the take out.
Speaker 1: So speaking of that, we are in New York City,
Speaker 1: Trotteria del arte. What are you that? For me? Is
Speaker 1: that okay? That was like passable? It was great? And
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk talk about mobituaries. You're midway through season three.
Speaker 1: The second part of season three will start right about
Speaker 1: when three starts. For those who may not know about
Speaker 1: this wonderful place to find great stories about Americans who've
Speaker 1: been slightly overlooked or maybe heavily overlooked. What is the construct?
Speaker 1: What is the premise the passion behind mobituaries? So it's
Speaker 1: people or things um in uh this season we even
Speaker 1: included a fruit uh that um that deserve a second look,
Speaker 1: that passed on and didn't get the recognition that I
Speaker 1: think they deserved. Um. And then they also what is
Speaker 1: that I love that? I love that? How special is
Speaker 1: that Morocco? That will be all yours I know because
Speaker 1: you saw the dog. Oh that's great. The baratas, and
Speaker 1: thank you for writing the anchovies. Barata is nothing without anchovies. Okay, great,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I think very mans is an
Speaker 1: indulgent culinary experience entirely from Orocco. I'm guessing you saw
Speaker 1: the documentary about the octopus, right that everybody that I
Speaker 1: see all the documentaries on octopus. Yeah, and so that's
Speaker 1: why I have not I'm waiting to see it until
Speaker 1: after I eat this. So it's basically things that I
Speaker 1: think deserve a second look that didn't get the send
Speaker 1: off they deserved the first time. Or maybe he didn't
Speaker 1: get any send off at all. Um So, already this
Speaker 1: season we had John Denver uh with names, and I'm
Speaker 1: sorry that we didn't include Major, but that would have
Speaker 1: been really interesting. Actually, do you know where it ranks major?
Speaker 1: Very very low, very very It does not make the
Speaker 1: top ten thousand, I don't think ever, but that's been
Speaker 1: an advantage for me, so I'm good with that. It
Speaker 1: probably is so yeah. So, um So, we looked at
Speaker 1: names like Mildred, Bertha and Todd, which um fell off
Speaker 1: the map. I was surprised that Todd had fallen off
Speaker 1: the map in the early seventies. Um, and uh so
Speaker 1: it's been it's been a blast just to kind of
Speaker 1: dive into these different topics. And what strikes me about
Speaker 1: this second look process is in some instances the subject
Speaker 1: matter got a look like John Denver, for example, John
Speaker 1: Denver in his time well as a sensation, and the
Speaker 1: treatment of at this time was He's different than the
Speaker 1: caricature or the popular understanding of what John Denver was. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if you remember this, and look,
Speaker 1: it might have just been in my own little tiny
Speaker 1: corner of the world. But when he died and I didn't,
Speaker 1: we didn't mention this in the podcast, but I remember
Speaker 1: a lot of like really snarky jokes about him, and
Speaker 1: it was sort of the same way as a child
Speaker 1: that I remembered when Elvis died. The very first time
Speaker 1: I heard the word loser was on the playground at
Speaker 1: Woodacre's Elementary School in Bethesda, Maryland, and Elvis had died,
Speaker 1: I guess in the summer. And when I came was
Speaker 1: showed up in August. Yeah, in third grade, and somebody
Speaker 1: mentioned Elvis and this girl said he was a loser,
Speaker 1: and oh, yeah, and exactly right, no, exactly and but
Speaker 1: but John Denver had come to this place where he'd
Speaker 1: sort of become a punch line, and and so I thought, well,
Speaker 1: that's this is rich because I'm not the only one
Speaker 1: telling Alexa to play John Denver's Greatest Heads. A lot
Speaker 1: of people are doing this. And Kurt Cobain apparently when
Speaker 1: he grew up, his mother only had one album in
Speaker 1: the house and it was the John Denverus Greatest Heads,
Speaker 1: and he listened to it over and over again. And
Speaker 1: I was probably morocc is sympathetic to that retelling of
Speaker 1: the John Denver story because I think that's what's going
Speaker 1: to happen when Neil Diamond dies. And I'm a huge
Speaker 1: Neil Diamond fan and not apologetic Neil Diamond fan. I
Speaker 1: believe he is an exceptional songwriter. His latter part of
Speaker 1: his career is a little bit kitchier than the first
Speaker 1: part of his career, but I think he's a substantial
Speaker 1: member of the American song book, and he's not treated
Speaker 1: that way. He's not regarded that way. And I think
Speaker 1: when whatever that day comes, it will be a sequined
Speaker 1: reference and a lot of ribbing of people on the
Speaker 1: in the side. Well, that guy was really kind of
Speaker 1: just a low level entertainer. Not true. Yeah, I agree
Speaker 1: with that. What I mean people at ben Way would
Speaker 1: what right, Caroline, Yeah, but but but also just regard
Speaker 1: that as like a baseball song. No, it's actually a
Speaker 1: really good song in itself. Well, I think you're I
Speaker 1: think this is what happens. It seems like with a
Speaker 1: lot of really really um mass appeal entertainers. And of
Speaker 1: course it's foolish, like the audience is smart. They attach
Speaker 1: themselves to something for a good reason. People punched through
Speaker 1: not by accident, and the process of a mobituary is
Speaker 1: too tell the story of a person's life in the
Speaker 1: context of the times in which they lived in not
Speaker 1: are modern times, because some of the issues and some
Speaker 1: of the people are viewed maybe more harshly now than
Speaker 1: they were in the time in which they lived, or
Speaker 1: they were subject to pressures unlike the pressures they would
Speaker 1: face now. Back in season two, there's a tribute to
Speaker 1: really one of the greatest entertainers ever, Sammy Davis Jr. Right,
Speaker 1: And that story is about his time, his struggles and
Speaker 1: how he moved through them. Yeah, I think it's I
Speaker 1: mean I'd like to try to go back and and
Speaker 1: and help the audience understand how the person was received
Speaker 1: in their time. I mean, obviously there's a point of view,
Speaker 1: So I mean, I can't if it would be a
Speaker 1: cheat for me to say, oh, we're not judging them
Speaker 1: by contemporary standards, it's not true. But I also don't
Speaker 1: want to look when we did Latin Lovers in the
Speaker 1: first half of this season Valentino, Roman Navarro, Fernando Lamas.
Speaker 1: You know, Valentino is a hundred years before me too, Okay,
Speaker 1: And so I get it these a lot of these
Speaker 1: movies haven't dated well. Um, but of movie goers were
Speaker 1: women at the time, and he was created by men.
Speaker 1: I mean, the matinee Idol was created by women who
Speaker 1: at that time, you know, that's what they wanted. And
Speaker 1: so I didn't feel like digging up women that have
Speaker 1: been dead for seventy and eighty years and putting them
Speaker 1: on trial. I mean, for like what they liked. I
Speaker 1: think it's you know, it's it's sort of this is
Speaker 1: what was at the time, and of course, you know,
Speaker 1: we add a little bit of like my viewpoint on it.
Speaker 1: But I'm interested in what created this phenomena at the time.
Speaker 1: Why why people were literally killing themselves when he died,
Speaker 1: because there was such hysteria. And tastes are tastes, and
Speaker 1: one of the ways to understand how a culture evolves
Speaker 1: is to understand tastes of a different era. Totally, yes,
Speaker 1: And if you don't understand the taste of a different area,
Speaker 1: you can't mark yourself and how things have changed. And
Speaker 1: one of the ways of appreciating and sort of quantifying
Speaker 1: change and evolution is, well, what were the taste back then?
Speaker 1: And why how do we get here? And also, I
Speaker 1: don't think I don't think most people are that judgmental anyway.
Speaker 1: I don't think most place senior. Oh, that's so terrible.
Speaker 1: I mean, there is a there is a sort of
Speaker 1: self defined judgment or judgmental industrial complex, but most people
Speaker 1: are not a member of it. That's hysterical. The judgmental
Speaker 1: industrial complex is perfect, that's perfect. Yeah, if it most
Speaker 1: people don't count themselves in that, and they want to know. Like,
Speaker 1: for example, going back to John Denver, I didn't realize
Speaker 1: until I listened, not only didn't he have a successful
Speaker 1: songwriting career, but and we'll talk more about this on
Speaker 1: the other side of the break. Uh, he had one
Speaker 1: of the most watched Christmas specials in the history of
Speaker 1: broadcast television. Yes, yes, I mean it's not it's it's
Speaker 1: it's not quite the level of say my podcast or yours.
Speaker 1: Sixty five million people tuned in to the Rocky Mountain
Speaker 1: Christmas Special in and you know when I found it.
Speaker 1: You can find it on YouTube to but don't. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure it's supposed to be there, but it's um
Speaker 1: it is. And you know, you and I are not
Speaker 1: far apart in age, and so you can smell the
Speaker 1: seventies just by listening to this thing. It is so
Speaker 1: evocative of kind of a weird sort of one kind
Speaker 1: of energy, you know, John Denver, it's sort of There
Speaker 1: are scenes of nature. There's um flying a slow most
Speaker 1: shot of a flying squirrel. There's a sequence on the
Speaker 1: life's life cycle of the brook trout. And we're gonna
Speaker 1: hold on the brook trout and all the other scenery
Speaker 1: because we need to go to break. Do we have
Speaker 1: brook Trout coming by the way, because Garrett Segment two
Speaker 1: of the takeout coming up intil a second from CBS News.
Speaker 1: This is the takeout with Major Garrett Welcome back to
Speaker 1: segment two of the Takeout Trotta del Arte in Midtown Manhattan.
Speaker 1: Our special guest Rocca and I am just gonna fanboy
Speaker 1: for the next forty minutes because it's about mobituaries. It's
Speaker 1: about this phenomenal podcast that grew out of your work
Speaker 1: on CBS Sunday Morning, and this gathering of information, observation
Speaker 1: and archival sound that brings to life people who deserve
Speaker 1: a second look. And we'll get back to the John
Speaker 1: Denver Christmas Special from a second. But you are the
Speaker 1: editorial agent of control over who gets the second look,
Speaker 1: are you not? Yeah? I mean, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you feel this way too. I just
Speaker 1: feel like I've learned to trust my gut. I don't
Speaker 1: want that in a leader necessarily, but like for editorial,
Speaker 1: you know, if something gets me in the gut. I
Speaker 1: think there's something about, say John Denver that and I
Speaker 1: mentioned this in the podcast. I was this is going
Speaker 1: to be a name drop. But I participated in a
Speaker 1: reading that a friend put on a playwright and Julianne
Speaker 1: Moore was there and she sat right next to me.
Speaker 1: It was really cool, and and my friend was being
Speaker 1: very nice and said, oh, Julianne, you have to listen
Speaker 1: to most podcast in obituaries. He explained what it was,
Speaker 1: and she said, who do you have coming up? And
Speaker 1: I said John Denver and she like she melted, She
Speaker 1: went John Denver and and she like was it's sort
Speaker 1: of like she stepped into a time machine right there
Speaker 1: and went back and and was just exhaled and and
Speaker 1: uh um. And I think that there's something that makes people.
Speaker 1: He's what I call an undervalued stock. And I think
Speaker 1: there are people like that that they're sitting somewhere in
Speaker 1: the back of our minds, and then if you bring
Speaker 1: them up, people go, oh my god, that's right. I
Speaker 1: loved that person. And if you can find those are
Speaker 1: people that I'm always kind of like, who who is
Speaker 1: a person like that? And go back to the Christmas Special?
Speaker 1: So did you say sixty eight million people watch this?
Speaker 1: Six that is? So this is remember Dais and gentle
Speaker 1: let's just go back in the way back machine with
Speaker 1: Mr Peabody. Yeah. So broadcast television back then was a
Speaker 1: mass audience structure. Three networks that were not a lot
Speaker 1: of choices were streaming alternatives. There weren't cable alternatives. But
Speaker 1: still it was highly competitive because of that intense segmented
Speaker 1: So if you pulled sixty eight million, you were literally
Speaker 1: pulling ten million viewers from two other networks at that hour.
Speaker 1: It is Listen, you're absolutely right when people say, oh,
Speaker 1: there were only three networks. Okay, that's fine, but also
Speaker 1: the country was also significantly smaller. Okay, the country had
Speaker 1: I think probably you know, like two competitive zeal to
Speaker 1: grab a million viewers, let alone ten million from another
Speaker 1: network was off the chart. Yeah. And so when you
Speaker 1: watch this thing, it's I mean, it's very weirdly seventies.
Speaker 1: He's and basically he's like basically in a snow globe
Speaker 1: and a biosphere that they've built for him in the rockies,
Speaker 1: and he's got like grow eas and greenies as he
Speaker 1: calls him. Inside. He has all this plant life inside
Speaker 1: um and UM at the whole thing. I'm not surprised.
Speaker 1: Imagine hanging Macromay baskets are probably in there somewhere. And
Speaker 1: he's got the biggest stars of the day. He's got
Speaker 1: Steve Martin in his Wild and Crazy Guy, UM period
Speaker 1: and and Um, Valerie Harper, Olivia Newton, John Um and
Speaker 1: he just sort of sings songs. There's kind of a
Speaker 1: it's cheerful, but there's also something kind of wand and
Speaker 1: sort of seventies about it. And think about the psyche
Speaker 1: collectively of the country. Nine the bi centennial year. But
Speaker 1: we're coming off Vietnam. We're wondering about what what America
Speaker 1: means after two hundred years. We are still dealing with
Speaker 1: the after effects of the civil rights movement, campus riots,
Speaker 1: all of those things. Watergate is just right in the
Speaker 1: rear view mirror. And this idea of almost like this
Speaker 1: snow globe commune ye yep, sitting in the middle of
Speaker 1: living rooms across America found a place of traction psychically,
Speaker 1: I think people if you look at it and you
Speaker 1: think people just needed a break, people just needed a break.
Speaker 1: And even the way everyone in the audience shots, the
Speaker 1: reaction shots, I mean there's a there's a I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say a like quality to it, but everyone looks mildly sedated,
Speaker 1: like and so everyone's ballly um, it's like a very
Speaker 1: like that crowd and uhum, and everyone sort of naturally attractive,
Speaker 1: like no one seems to be wearing makeup, none of
Speaker 1: the women and so um, and he's sort of strumming
Speaker 1: his guitar and they're having a sing along. Um And
Speaker 1: one of the things I love about the Mobituaries about
Speaker 1: John Denver. And I promise we'll get onto other parts
Speaker 1: of Mobituary Season three. But I found this deeply meaningful
Speaker 1: to me because I had sort of overlooked John Denver
Speaker 1: until recently got the greatest hits on my iTunes. And
Speaker 1: we all remember, I certainly remember the time Rocky Mountain
Speaker 1: High having a kind of hilarious end joke Rocky Mountain High,
Speaker 1: everyone stone, that's not what the song is about. And
Speaker 1: the first three stands of that song, I urged my
Speaker 1: audience go back and listen to it. It is beautiful,
Speaker 1: evocative life journey writing. It really is. And I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: And he went and he testified in fact, but during
Speaker 1: the um Parents Music Research Council, right the tipper Goore
Speaker 1: hearings that what are commonly known as that and and said,
Speaker 1: you know, my song was not was not about that.
Speaker 1: It seems almost quaint now because no one would care
Speaker 1: today if they thought it then. And it was sort
Speaker 1: of like an allegation against it, like a celebration of
Speaker 1: sitting around a campfire just getting stoned and that's all
Speaker 1: that's all American youth could do, and how terrible that was,
Speaker 1: and we ought to do something about that. Arms Akind
Speaker 1: Absolutely No, it was his. It was his reaction to
Speaker 1: seeing the the parased meteor shower from twelve thousand feet
Speaker 1: up in the Rockies and how beautiful that was. Damn
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. Um, how is it that people like John Denver?
Speaker 1: And I imagine you've thought about this because you're saying
Speaker 1: this person deserves a second look? Have you ever come
Speaker 1: to a unified theory about why they didn't get the
Speaker 1: good look the first time? M Um? Well, I think
Speaker 1: it's probably different in every case. I think for John Denver,
Speaker 1: I do think that he would have been recognized more
Speaker 1: had he lived longer. And you know what you know,
Speaker 1: as you know one of the in the podcast Bill
Speaker 1: flan Again it was a great music writer, and I
Speaker 1: talked about how today he might be Dolly Partner. He
Speaker 1: might have been Dolly Partner, this enduring person of with
Speaker 1: a with a great songbook that is a touchdowe for
Speaker 1: lots of people over many generations. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: And I don't know what the statistics are, but I
Speaker 1: bet that the number of times his songs are played
Speaker 1: would probably surprise a lot of us, like how they're
Speaker 1: still played. So, um, yeah, I think you would be
Speaker 1: a figure like that. And uh so I'm not, I'm not,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. It's it's a it's I think it's
Speaker 1: different every time. So who is Mr and Mrs Smith
Speaker 1: And why did they rate a mobituary? Well? Mr and
Speaker 1: Mrs Smith rated him obituary because actually the producer of
Speaker 1: that episode, um Zoe Marcus, had sent long ago an
Speaker 1: image of a Time magazine cover from seven Um that
Speaker 1: simply says Mr and Mrs Smith an interracial marriage. And
Speaker 1: I remember being struck that I had not known the
Speaker 1: story that Dean Rusk, the Georgia Democrat who was um
Speaker 1: the Secretary of State under Kennedy and and LBJ, that
Speaker 1: his daughter, who was white, married a black man in
Speaker 1: seven and that that would have been put on the
Speaker 1: cover of Time magazine. And and one of the details
Speaker 1: really jumped out at me that Dean Rusk, her father,
Speaker 1: had offered his resignation to the president because he was
Speaker 1: worried that the publicity around it would comprom eyes, you know,
Speaker 1: crucial Southern support and Congress for the president's agenda on
Speaker 1: like a civil rights in Vietnam. But um that one
Speaker 1: marriage could be so galvanized as to possibly jeopardize the
Speaker 1: political prospects of a president of the United States. Right.
Speaker 1: But what also kind of captivated me was the idea
Speaker 1: of this young couple in love who end up on
Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine and then are completely forgotten,
Speaker 1: which they were very happy about. They retired, They moved
Speaker 1: as young people to central Virginia and raised horses all
Speaker 1: their lives. I mean, she was Peggy Rusk of the
Speaker 1: daughter of the Secretary of State, was not like a
Speaker 1: did not aspire to be a Washington doyenne or social climber.
Speaker 1: She just had no interest in that. She found this guy,
Speaker 1: fell in love, they married, and they just wanted to
Speaker 1: get away from it all and be with horses, which
Speaker 1: is how they met. And why is nineteen sixty seven
Speaker 1: a particularly important year because it ends up being this
Speaker 1: year where it starts with um loving versus Virginia and
Speaker 1: the unanim mis ruling and um uh that struck down
Speaker 1: bands in sixteen states against mixed race marriages. And then
Speaker 1: you have this marriage in the middle, and then you
Speaker 1: have guests Who's coming to dinner? Um, huge box office
Speaker 1: success at the end of that year. And then there's
Speaker 1: a little detail that I thought was really interesting that
Speaker 1: Sidney pot I'm gonna hold you right there because that
Speaker 1: interesting detail is a perfect segue and a grabber for
Speaker 1: the next segment of the Takeout, And that's what Rocca
Speaker 1: is doing. And the broados here and I'm Major Garrett
Speaker 1: back for more of our deeply enjoyable conversation about Mobituary
Speaker 1: season three here on the Takeout from CBS News. This
Speaker 1: is the Takeout with Major Garrett. Welcome back. This is
Speaker 1: not a rhetorical question. How delightful is it to spend
Speaker 1: the end of twenty two in the presence of Mo
Speaker 1: Rocca in downtown Midtown, New York. It's spectacular. I told
Speaker 1: you it was not a rhetorical question. Our subject matter
Speaker 1: is Mo Rocca. Of course, Mobituaries. Midway through season three, UM,
Speaker 1: we're talking about Mr and Mrs Smith. One of the
Speaker 1: things I found very interesting about that episode is Dean
Speaker 1: Rusk's daughter, who becomes Mrs Smith, doesn't really think much
Speaker 1: of guests Who's coming to dinner? The movie which wasn't,
Speaker 1: as you said, a box office sensation then and is
Speaker 1: regarded as one of these turning point movies of its time,
Speaker 1: and people who watch it now find great inspiration, substance, emotion,
Speaker 1: and a kind of clarity in it. But that didn't
Speaker 1: really land that way with her. It sounded like to me,
Speaker 1: you know, it didn't. And I found her as a
Speaker 1: character so interesting because she was and and I'm sure
Speaker 1: when you encounter this, i'd like, I'm guessing you're happy
Speaker 1: about it. She's like someone who's never watching TV because
Speaker 1: she doesn't have the cadence of a TV interviewee. She
Speaker 1: just answers like she'll sometimes do like one word answers
Speaker 1: and she talks like a normal person. I'm like, what
Speaker 1: are you doing? Why are you being so normal? Like
Speaker 1: you're supposed to talk like people do on TV and
Speaker 1: give these answers. You're just to give me the answers
Speaker 1: I'm expecting, what is wrong here? No, it's so and
Speaker 1: but what I what What I also found sort of
Speaker 1: inspiring is kind of she had this clarity that she
Speaker 1: was in love with this guy and that's all that matters.
Speaker 1: She wasn't really I was sort of taken aback when
Speaker 1: she says she wasn't following the Supreme Court case. Now,
Speaker 1: that's probably because she was in a state where she
Speaker 1: was in the district of Columbia and she was gonna
Speaker 1: get married in California. There wasn't going to be an
Speaker 1: issue there in were protected. Yeah, but but but she wasn't.
Speaker 1: She just says, look, I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 1: I wasn't doing this to make a cultural impact or
Speaker 1: make a political point. I was doing it because I
Speaker 1: was in love. And when I interviewed the great entertainer
Speaker 1: Leslie Ulghams, who married a white man an Austar alien
Speaker 1: two years before in she sort of said the same thing, like,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're in love with somebody, you're not
Speaker 1: really thinking about the social issue aspect of it. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's maybe one of the ways, you know,
Speaker 1: it's really deep and abiding for them, right, because they're
Speaker 1: not distracted by all these other things. They just know
Speaker 1: what they are, who they are, and what it means
Speaker 1: to be together, right, And there's a abject beauty to
Speaker 1: that mm hmm. Completely, it's so pure, and then it's
Speaker 1: it's sort of plainness and ordinariness. It seems to me
Speaker 1: as I was listening felt extraordinary. Yeah, well, I'm glad
Speaker 1: you feel that way. Thank you, and uh and thank her.
Speaker 1: But it's um, and I hope that that's why it's
Speaker 1: that that people that it's landing with a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are sick of everything, every personal story becoming
Speaker 1: news becoming a political story necessarily because it doesn't. It
Speaker 1: just doesn't, it doesn't fit it that neatly. And if
Speaker 1: you allow me, well, I'd like to reach back to
Speaker 1: season two, uh to talk about Sammy Davis Jr. Um,
Speaker 1: because some in this audience may not have a real memory. Uh,
Speaker 1: Sammy Davis Jr. You have to be a person at
Speaker 1: a certain age like you and I are you. And
Speaker 1: I grew up watching Sammy on television and even then
Speaker 1: I knew he was amazing, but I didn't know until
Speaker 1: I listened to the show how highly he was regarded
Speaker 1: by the superstars of his time. Yeah, he really was.
Speaker 1: When he was at Ciro's nightclub in Los Angeles, I
Speaker 1: mean people, everyone wanted to get in and see him perform.
Speaker 1: And he was quite young then. He was primarily a
Speaker 1: dancer then and uh, um and part of a nightclub
Speaker 1: act with his father and part of the will Maston trio. Um.
Speaker 1: But even then, you know, people were fighting to get
Speaker 1: in and see this this masterful performer. And then he
Speaker 1: lost his eye and he came back from that. But
Speaker 1: part of why I wanted to do him just because
Speaker 1: not just my admiration and affection and call it death
Speaker 1: of an entertainer, is because entertainer the word. Sometimes people
Speaker 1: are a little kind of I think it sounds a
Speaker 1: little cheeseball, but they're dismissive it, right. But to be
Speaker 1: a capital e entertainer like that, um, that's really special.
Speaker 1: To be somebody who performs, you know, in Vegas and
Speaker 1: then goes back to his hotel room and does the
Speaker 1: whole act again with lizam and Ellie because they both
Speaker 1: just love performing. That's like, that's a certain drive and
Speaker 1: an energy that that we all are great should be
Speaker 1: grateful for to have that person in our lives. And
Speaker 1: there's a theme in that mobituary that I think is
Speaker 1: also important because looking back at entertainers of that era,
Speaker 1: So in the TV era who made it big, they
Speaker 1: came out of vaudeville, which was a place that demanded
Speaker 1: not just one talent. You could not be successful in
Speaker 1: vaudeville as a single talent entertainer. No, I mean he
Speaker 1: was sort of a quintuple threat. I guess, actor, singer, dancer.
Speaker 1: He had the gun spinning routine, which was really amazing. Uh.
Speaker 1: He was also a really great impressionist, and he was
Speaker 1: also groundbreaking impressionist because he was a black impressionist, um,
Speaker 1: imitating white actors. But and when he did that in
Speaker 1: the army after being physically beaten regularly, you know, because
Speaker 1: he was part of the first wave of integrated forces. Um,
Speaker 1: he was so good that that even like the abusive
Speaker 1: white you know, soldiers who would bullied him and worse,
Speaker 1: you know, we're like, whoa, this guy is really special.
Speaker 1: And one other theme that comes through subtly. But I
Speaker 1: think it's important because it's a hallmark of people who
Speaker 1: are successful in times when their success is harder than
Speaker 1: the people they are around. There was a tenacity to Sammy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're yeah, there there was. There was, there was a
Speaker 1: tenacity he kept going. And I think also there's something, Um,
Speaker 1: I find something. I actually, weirdly enough, was thinking a
Speaker 1: little bit of Ellen DeGeneres when I was doing this,
Speaker 1: because I remember when I profiled her that she said,
Speaker 1: you know, I just want to make people laugh. I
Speaker 1: just want to be an entertainer. And she sort of
Speaker 1: got caught up in one point in politics and having
Speaker 1: you know, and she she she was okay being an advocate,
Speaker 1: but what she really wanted to do was entertained and
Speaker 1: that's kind of Sammy Davis Jr. And by the way,
Speaker 1: Sammy Davis Jr. Went and launched it Selma. He was
Speaker 1: on the march on Washington and I think Harry Belafonte
Speaker 1: even said at one point, I don't understand why Sammy
Speaker 1: Davis Jr. Doesn't get credit for that, and it's seen
Speaker 1: as somebody who sort of shirked that, which he didn't.
Speaker 1: But maybe it's because he was so first and foremost
Speaker 1: an entertainer and loved doing that. There might be one answer.
Speaker 1: It's referred to in the episode. I remember it in
Speaker 1: my household growing up when he endorsed Richard Nixon, and
Speaker 1: that maybe one reason. That was a moment from my
Speaker 1: Republican Paris right. I'm seriously it was. It was a
Speaker 1: moment and they said, see Richard Nixon must be fine.
Speaker 1: This this this amazing. We did not use the terminology
Speaker 1: African American at the time, this amazing black American has
Speaker 1: endorsed Richard Nixon. Good enough for Sammy, good enough for
Speaker 1: us even Yeah, it was a moment. And you mentioned
Speaker 1: in the episode that there was a little bit of hey,
Speaker 1: what are you doing among white liberals and maybe some
Speaker 1: in the civil rights community, you know, there was And
Speaker 1: then he this great speech was a push conference. I
Speaker 1: am who I am right, Yeah, I'm a black man
Speaker 1: in American I've made a choice, right and and and
Speaker 1: it was and I really loved talking to Willie Brown
Speaker 1: about that, who is, by the way, just one of
Speaker 1: the greatest interviews ever. So he talked about an individual
Speaker 1: y mean and as sharp an observer and uh, he
Speaker 1: has to pick up on something you said earlier, a
Speaker 1: gut sense of politics that is very very good, very
Speaker 1: very sharp, always has and he had sort of a
Speaker 1: three sixty view of Sammy. He really did. And he
Speaker 1: also really pushed back at the notion that Sammy might
Speaker 1: have been deficient because he was so much about entertainment.
Speaker 1: He was like, no, he's a great cook. He was,
Speaker 1: you know, a film lover. He was a really sophisticated
Speaker 1: guy and a great host. So it was I loved
Speaker 1: hearing his perspective. So when we think about, because we're
Speaker 1: going to be anticipating in a lot of different ways,
Speaker 1: what should we think about, what can you set the
Speaker 1: table at for coming up from obituaries in the second
Speaker 1: part of season three, Well, I really wanted to tell
Speaker 1: the story of Samantha Smith, whom you probably remember, but
Speaker 1: an astonishing number of people have forgotten that. In this
Speaker 1: young girl from Jane, she wasn't connected. She wrote a
Speaker 1: letter like how many kids were kept awake at night
Speaker 1: during the eighties and seventies. I'm sure terrified that the
Speaker 1: world was going to be blown up, right, that the
Speaker 1: Soviet Union in America would trade you know, I CBMs
Speaker 1: and and uh and she wrote a letter to Eurie
Speaker 1: drop LP and with that another teaser. At the top
Speaker 1: of his game, Always at the top of his game,
Speaker 1: I Major Garrett. That's Morocco. Stay tuned for segment four
Speaker 1: because that's a great teaser. When we get back from
Speaker 1: CBS News, this is the takeout with Major Garrett. Always
Speaker 1: fantastic to be in New York City. Even better when
Speaker 1: I get to sit down for meal with Morocca. So, Mo,
Speaker 1: you were talking about a letter, Well, right, do you
Speaker 1: remember towards the end of the Soviet Union, there were
Speaker 1: like a succession of really scary ghoules at the top. Right,
Speaker 1: it went, it went, the Supreme Soviet it went well,
Speaker 1: it went Breshnev and drop Up in Chernienko, Right, those
Speaker 1: are the three. I mean, Breshnev had been there a
Speaker 1: long time. But but and drop Up was like like
Speaker 1: particularly a caricature of a scary guy because he'd run
Speaker 1: the KGB right and uh and um. And so this girl,
Speaker 1: Samantha Smith wrote this letter saying, you know, why do
Speaker 1: you want to blow up the world basically, and he
Speaker 1: wrote her back. The letter was published in propta um
Speaker 1: and said, you know, we don't want that, and um,
Speaker 1: you know people all over the world are the same
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah, and come visit the Soviet Union.
Speaker 1: And so she went, and CBS and News covered the
Speaker 1: hell out of it. It was a very big deal.
Speaker 1: But what I found, um in previous seasons of the
Speaker 1: podcast is people under a certain age really not that
Speaker 1: much younger than me, but had no clue. And one
Speaker 1: of the producers said, no, you this, You've got to
Speaker 1: do this episode because no one I'm telling you, no
Speaker 1: millennials know this story at all, not only all of
Speaker 1: that story, but have any sense of And you mentioned
Speaker 1: this before we went to break and it might have
Speaker 1: struck people. What the terror terror, the psychic heaviness that
Speaker 1: came with the Cold War, And in the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 1: almost once a month there was a story written about
Speaker 1: the ever enlarging stockpiles of nuclear weapons and how many
Speaker 1: times over one side or another could obliterate Planet Earth.
Speaker 1: That was heavy, It was real, and it weighed on
Speaker 1: you every single day. It weighed on you. And and
Speaker 1: so when I hear about kids who have climate anxiety,
Speaker 1: I take that seriously. When I hear that, like kids
Speaker 1: have trouble sleeping because they're worried that the planet is
Speaker 1: going to be destroyed, and um, you know that the
Speaker 1: cities and places where they live will be submerged by
Speaker 1: the oceans. And I thought that's what it was that
Speaker 1: I can sort of felt existential. It felt existential. And
Speaker 1: I had two fears at that time myself as an adolescent,
Speaker 1: that the world would be destroyed by nuclear attack, and
Speaker 1: that Broadway was just not economically viable as a model,
Speaker 1: and that by the time I moved to New York,
Speaker 1: there would be no you know, Broadway. So those two
Speaker 1: things were the we're really weighing on me. Uh, Samantha
Speaker 1: Smith did nothing for the Broadway community, I'm sure you know,
Speaker 1: but thankfully it's still here, still here and going strong.
Speaker 1: But but she did, she did something remarkable. And she
Speaker 1: was a kid, an ordinary kid, and and the trip
Speaker 1: there was really interesting because she that was not easy
Speaker 1: to comport herself the way she did, and so that
Speaker 1: story has been really interesting to tell. So one of
Speaker 1: the things that I find so enjoyable about obituaries is
Speaker 1: not only is it a second look, but it's a
Speaker 1: closer look at the first two lines of the original obituary,
Speaker 1: if you will, Because everyone who who achieves some level
Speaker 1: of notoriety, this is true, ladies and gentlemen, I've done it.
Speaker 1: You wonder, all right, when I die, what's the first
Speaker 1: or second line going to be about me? Anyone who
Speaker 1: denies that is not being honest with themselves, and they're
Speaker 1: not being honest with you, Okay. And so you look
Speaker 1: at that lead and you say, is that true? Yes?
Speaker 1: But or did that completely miss it or miss it
Speaker 1: by more than it should have? It seems to me
Speaker 1: that's one of the exercises you go through in the process. Well,
Speaker 1: I appreciate that because I hadn't thought of it in
Speaker 1: those terms, but I'd like to think that that's what
Speaker 1: we are doing with it. I hope so. Um, I
Speaker 1: think you're right. It is interesting to see what that
Speaker 1: little is it in a positive I forget what the
Speaker 1: grammatical term for it is. But you know, Joe Schmo
Speaker 1: Calma died today, he was sixty eight or whatever. Exactly
Speaker 1: exactly what is that thing that is the essence? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what is the contemporary essence of this person? Maybe right,
Speaker 1: maybe incomplete, maybe more wrong than right. And it seems
Speaker 1: to me that's one of the things you're trying to excavate. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and look that changes with I mean different eras,
Speaker 1: because you know, a while back, when Jerry Jerry Lee
Speaker 1: Lewis died, some of the the I could see that
Speaker 1: some of the o bits were balancing his legendary career
Speaker 1: as a rock and roller with his personal life in
Speaker 1: trying to smush it in there. You know, in earlier
Speaker 1: era would not have worried about the personal side. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying one is right and one is wrong. What
Speaker 1: is that is there? Oh, thank you so much. That's fine,
Speaker 1: that's fine. Actually no, it's not. But it is a
Speaker 1: break in the video action, which is which is what
Speaker 1: when Midtown Manhattan it's a functioning, moving wine indulgent restaurants.
Speaker 1: So that's great. This is not a rehearsal to say,
Speaker 1: that's the kids saying right yeah, And it's not a
Speaker 1: drill without they saying and it's uh an appraisal plus more.
Speaker 1: And what do you find about the podcast space that
Speaker 1: gives you that elbow room? Well, I think certainly the
Speaker 1: space the time you know that you can take, which
Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't want to abuse that.
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes on streaming shows you think, well, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe it could have used a commercially a network exactly
Speaker 1: telling you sorry, five episodes, not a yeah exactly, you know,
Speaker 1: forty minutes, not seventy like you didn't need that, and
Speaker 1: uh um. But I think there's there's a room for that.
Speaker 1: I also think, you know, probably sometimes for intense interviews,
Speaker 1: not you know, showing up with just a microphone, people
Speaker 1: will open up a little bit of that question without question.
Speaker 1: I think so. And one of the things that I
Speaker 1: find and you will probably feel humble about this in
Speaker 1: a way that I don't intend, like, oh, major, what
Speaker 1: are you saying that for? You have convening authority, there
Speaker 1: are people who will talk to you that enlarge this
Speaker 1: project and these and these concepts. It feels to me, well,
Speaker 1: I hope so, I mean, that's that is nice of
Speaker 1: you to say that, and I hope so. I hope
Speaker 1: as people listen to more episodes or or see interviews
Speaker 1: that they like that I've done, um, that it will
Speaker 1: make them more open to it. I know with you know,
Speaker 1: with John Denver that there was a lot of protectiveness
Speaker 1: around him and I thought, all right, you know, um,
Speaker 1: but but who's who is the leading character of that episode?
Speaker 1: His ex wife Annie? Yeah, and and that that had
Speaker 1: to take some doing it did I think she needed
Speaker 1: to know that this was not this was coming from
Speaker 1: I know it sounds corny, but from a place of
Speaker 1: love and it is it is which you know, Um,
Speaker 1: that's there. There's a way, you know, from a place
Speaker 1: of love to get too to make discoveries. And in
Speaker 1: the last minute or so, we have mode. It feels
Speaker 1: also that one of the things you want to help
Speaker 1: people understand is that there is an American story. It
Speaker 1: has lots of characters, there are lots of complexities to it,
Speaker 1: and we should spend some time with it. Yeah, um, yes,
Speaker 1: uh and um yeah, and I want to tell more
Speaker 1: of those stories. And well, I mean yeah, because I
Speaker 1: really like America and I and think there are a
Speaker 1: lot of great stories and there are a lot of
Speaker 1: things to be happy and proud about, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: and and um there are a lot of heroes and
Speaker 1: uh you know, I don't want it to be hokey
Speaker 1: and um, but uh sure, I mean that. I hope
Speaker 1: there are many more episodes that we can keep telling
Speaker 1: stories about people who overcame struggles and achieved great things
Speaker 1: in part because they were here. So Jamie Benson, who
Speaker 1: was behind the camera with us this episode and running
Speaker 1: audio and who was an integral part of article and
Speaker 1: has been part of my success in the debrief in
Speaker 1: the take out for the better part of six years,
Speaker 1: had an idea and you latched onto it. So let's
Speaker 1: roll with this a little basis major Why don't you
Speaker 1: think of a possible mobituary? Can I suggest one? Please?
Speaker 1: Kurt Flood? Who's Kurt Flood? Beautiful? Beautiful beautiful. I'm already intrigued.
Speaker 1: Kurt Flood played major League baseball. He played Major League
Speaker 1: baseball for the St. Louis Cardinals. He was an All
Speaker 1: Star outfielder African American. Kurt Flood went to federal court
Speaker 1: to challenge the reserve clause, which was something that existed
Speaker 1: in Major League Baseball until Kurt Flood came along. What
Speaker 1: was the reserve clause? It said, every Major League baseball
Speaker 1: team reserved the right to keep you on their roster
Speaker 1: until they changed their mind. You could never opt out
Speaker 1: of your contract for the perpetuity of your major league career.
Speaker 1: Kurt Flood said that disabled him and every other Major
Speaker 1: League baseball player from their rights to test their value
Speaker 1: among other teams. Kurt Flood went to federal court one
Speaker 1: his case and began the era of free agency. So
Speaker 1: that's how we got free agency. I had no idea.
Speaker 1: I had no idea. Well, I'm instantly drawn to it.
Speaker 1: Also because I know how Cardinal fans are just so
Speaker 1: fur fan and which makes the best baseball fans in
Speaker 1: the country. I've been to many baseball games in St. Louis,
Speaker 1: and they know the game. They are deeply appreciative and
Speaker 1: Missouri has a complicated history in our country sure with
Speaker 1: with race relations dating all the way back to to
Speaker 1: pre Civil War times. Um, the dread Scott case originates
Speaker 1: in part in Missouri. Kurt Flood is an enormously important
Speaker 1: part of the American story and the assertion of rights
Speaker 1: and the searching for rights. In a different context athletics,
Speaker 1: but was in enormously important to the game we see
Speaker 1: before us today. That right, So that that's that's that's
Speaker 1: one suggestion. Um what else he got? We got a
Speaker 1: lot of We got seasons to fill a more material Now, Uh,
Speaker 1: this this can't happen yet because he's still with us.
Speaker 1: But when the day comes, and I hope it's not soon,
Speaker 1: I believe Jerry Brown would deserve an examination for his
Speaker 1: multi decade career in politics that has more twists and
Speaker 1: turns than I think anyone comparable. Well, and also Jerry Brown,
Speaker 1: I mean at one point he went and worked in
Speaker 1: Calcutto with mother Teresa. I mean, he's had a really
Speaker 1: contrascinating life, and he was this Roman candle in American
Speaker 1: politics early in his career, and he's very reflective about
Speaker 1: the mistakes he made and the Hubris that came with
Speaker 1: it then, And this is one of the things that
Speaker 1: I'm drawn to, not ideologically, not because of party, but
Speaker 1: because of I believe people who will stay in the
Speaker 1: arena deserve appraisal. You're staying in the arena because it's
Speaker 1: not easy to stay in the arena. He was very
Speaker 1: high and then he went back and became a mayor
Speaker 1: in a very tough stay to be in Oakland, way
Speaker 1: up high, back down low, and then served and understood,
Speaker 1: and he learned more about being a good leader and
Speaker 1: being a good deliverer of services to a community than
Speaker 1: he rose to attorney general. Then he became governor again
Speaker 1: and ushered California into its sort of modern future. I
Speaker 1: just think he is someone who spands decades and isn't
Speaker 1: rigid in any of those particular decades. And I love
Speaker 1: that that he went from governor to being mayor and
Speaker 1: reminds me a little bit of John Quincy Adams going
Speaker 1: from president to a house rap and that being his
Speaker 1: happiest time actually as a house rap and uh um
Speaker 1: and uh and and didn't Jerry Brown dated deper Winger also,
Speaker 1: so he's Linda Ronda Ronstad. Sorry, Bob Kerry dated deper
Speaker 1: winger winger. I don't want to do that to different winger,
Speaker 1: but anyway, everything dated, No, no, no, uh the uh
Speaker 1: um yeah, Linda ron Stadt of course, but yeah, no,
Speaker 1: he's what an interesting life. Well, we wish him well,
Speaker 1: We wish you well, Jerry absolutely absolutely. I'm not, yeah,
Speaker 1: prematurizing that, if that's even a word, But I do
Speaker 1: think there is something worth saying about Jerry Brown because
Speaker 1: he occupies the difference and and he is an embodiment
Speaker 1: of the seventies in a certain way, a caricature of
Speaker 1: that time. And you either stuck with that are you
Speaker 1: mature it out of it? And I think that journey
Speaker 1: is is interesting. Can you know how far we've fallen?
Speaker 1: I remember when he was in the primary against Phil
Speaker 1: was the first presidential campaign I covered, Okay, and I
Speaker 1: remember listening to W A. M U. I think it
Speaker 1: was still called there and Diane Ream and somebody called
Speaker 1: up and went, well, Governor Moonbeam, and then she went
Speaker 1: and she went, we do not insult people on this show,
Speaker 1: and she made the caller apologize. And how far we
Speaker 1: fall in because now everyone just insults each other all
Speaker 1: the time. But then that was your authenticity to insult.
Speaker 1: I'm authentic and I don't insult. I'm Major Garrett Morocco.
Speaker 1: What a pleasure, thanks man, and you're not. And I'm
Speaker 1: eating anchovies and you're not insulting me. I mean because
Speaker 1: I'm not touching a mom, not today, not ever. That's it,
Speaker 1: ladies and down. When we'll see you next week. The
Speaker 1: Takeout is produced by Arden Farie, Jamie Benson, Sarah Cook,
Speaker 1: Ellie Watson, Jake Rosen, and Ashley Armstrong. CBSN production by
Speaker 1: Eric Susanin. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at
Speaker 1: Takeout Podcast. That's at Takeout podcast, and for more go
Speaker 1: to Takeout podcast dot com. The Takeout is a production
Speaker 1: of CBS News. I hope you enjoyed listening to this
Speaker 1: episode of The Takeout with Major Garrett, a weekly podcast
Speaker 1: from CBS News. If you like what you heard, may
Speaker 1: I ask you to follow The take Out. Just like Mobituaries,
Speaker 1: It's available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or altogether Now wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. We'll be back next week with
Speaker 1: more new episodes from season three of Mobituaries.