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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: She was eighteen, and she was the only one to

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Speaker 2: actually speak at the sentence scene and to actually directly

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Speaker 2: speak and apologize the victims' families.

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Speaker 1: What did she say? What was her explanation for all this?

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Speaker 2: I don't think she offered an explanation, because how can

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Speaker 2: you really explain anything. Yeah, all she could really do

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Speaker 2: is apologize for her role.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the

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Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on

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Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for

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Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some

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Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom and they are excellent writers.

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Speaker 1: They've had so many great true crime stories and now

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Speaker 1: we want to tell you those stories with details that

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Speaker 1: have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words

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Speaker 1: is about the choices that writers make, good and bad.

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Speaker 1: It's a deep dive into the stories behind the stories.

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Speaker 1: Author Vivian Hoe, is a freelance journalist in London, but

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Speaker 1: she was in San Francisco reporting for The Chronicle and

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Speaker 1: The Guardian at one point, and she wrote a book

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Speaker 1: called Those Who Wander America's Lost Street Kids. It's about

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Speaker 1: the murder of two people in San Francisco by three

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Speaker 1: unhoused people, but the killer's backgrounds and their lives on

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Speaker 1: the street make this story more complicated. We're in San

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Speaker 1: Francisco in twenty fifteen, so.

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Speaker 2: Twenty three year old Audrey Carrey was found dead in

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Speaker 2: Golden Gate Park, dead from a gunshot wound, and hiker

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Speaker 2: Steve Carter, who is sixty seven years old, was found

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Speaker 2: dead in an Amerne hiking trail just north of the

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Speaker 2: Golden Gate Bridge.

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Speaker 3: And it was just as serious, and murders.

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Speaker 2: That happened really close together, and nobody really knew what

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Speaker 2: was really happening, what was going on. You cover crimes,

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Speaker 2: so you understand that most crimes that happened that there's

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Speaker 2: a rhyme or reason to them. They're done by somebody

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Speaker 2: that you knew, or they're done like a robbery gone

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Speaker 2: wrong or something like that. And quite quickly the police

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Speaker 2: were able to connect these murders to three street kids.

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Speaker 2: If you're familiar with the San Francisco area, if you

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Speaker 2: familiar with California, if you're familiar with any urban area

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Speaker 2: in the United States, really you're familiar with these kids.

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Speaker 2: They're kids that you see hanging around the streets, and

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Speaker 2: they're kids that you would characterize if you were not

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Speaker 2: feeling especially kind as a person, you would see them

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Speaker 2: and you would be like, are you really homeless? You

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Speaker 2: seem to be having too much fun, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: But throughout the course of a reporting in the story

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Speaker 2: on this case, I came to learn a lot about

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Speaker 2: these kids.

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Speaker 1: And you say street kids, but with these three convicted killers,

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Speaker 1: one is eighteen and two are in their twenties. And

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Speaker 1: I know later on that you call them kids because

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Speaker 1: of their lack of maturity, particularly because of how they

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Speaker 1: grew up. So these aren't kids, but they seem like

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Speaker 1: it for various different reasons.

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Speaker 3: We'll get into that more in a bits.

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Speaker 2: As you know, in San Francisco, this sort of large

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Speaker 2: unhoused population was always a really big part of the

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Speaker 2: culture of San Francisco. That's a hate asp very neighborhood

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Speaker 2: where Audrey Carey, the first victim was found. A cloud

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Speaker 2: of fear kind of swept over this neighborhood, and this

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Speaker 2: entire community end up kind of getting escapegoated a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So this is San Francisco in twenty fifteen. What about

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Speaker 1: drugs in the city, because some of the story does

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Speaker 1: involve drugs.

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Speaker 2: I mean it was San Francisco. There are people smoking

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Speaker 2: on the streets. Depending what neighborhood you went to. The Tenderline,

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Speaker 2: for example, it was kind of know as sort of

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Speaker 2: an open air drug market. There are specific places that

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Speaker 2: people would go for specific things. You would go to

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Speaker 2: the hate Aspy neighborhood, where most of this book takes place,

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Speaker 2: if you're looking for other street kids and sort of

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Speaker 2: the hippie street kid community in this community was mostly

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Speaker 2: a lot of weed. But what was happening a lot

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Speaker 2: more than this community is a lot more harder drugs,

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Speaker 2: a lot of meth, a lot of dope. San Francisco

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Speaker 2: enacted some of the harshest laws against homelessness in the country.

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Speaker 2: It was illegal to sit on the sidewalks, illegal to

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Speaker 2: lie down in the sidewalk.

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Speaker 1: Well, public camping was out. I'm assuming that was the ban, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: were there enough shelters for the amount of unhoused people

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Speaker 1: who were in San Francisco in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 3: Never?

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Speaker 2: Never, There have never been enough shelters, enough beds for

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Speaker 2: the people that needed beds.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So in twenty fifteen, if you compare it to

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Speaker 1: a large city like Chicago or New York or La

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Speaker 1: high crime, could people feel safe in most areas of

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Speaker 1: San Francisco at night?

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Speaker 2: It definitely was not a high crime sort of place.

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Speaker 2: Depending on what neighborhoods you went to, most places you

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Speaker 2: felt completely safe walking down on the streets. They weren't

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Speaker 2: unhoused individuals, they were your neighbors, They weren't strangers. It

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Speaker 2: was not a scary place to be for sure.

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Speaker 1: Now, the first victim that we talk about is Audrey Carrey,

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Speaker 1: who's twenty three years old. What do we know about

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Speaker 1: Audrey before any of this happens. Did you find out

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Speaker 1: very much about her?

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Speaker 2: Audrey was a very free spirited young girl. In a way,

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Speaker 2: Audrey Carey was a lot like the kids who would

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Speaker 2: end up killing her. She was the sort of kid

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Speaker 2: who just was trying to find a place in the world.

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Speaker 2: At that time. She knew she didn't want to work

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Speaker 2: in a sort of office environment.

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Speaker 3: She didn't want to be caged in by walls, and

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Speaker 3: she wanted to travel.

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Speaker 2: She wanted to see what more was out there, like

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Speaker 2: a lot of young kids out there in San Francisco

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Speaker 2: was the first stop on her trip, on her first

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Speaker 2: backpacking tour, and unfortunately that was where she met her end.

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Speaker 1: And Audrey wasn't considered unhoused. Is that right? She was

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Speaker 1: someone who was traveling and staying in hostels.

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Speaker 2: She was from Quebec, she was staying in a hostel

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Speaker 2: in San Francisco, she was leaving out at backpack and

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Speaker 2: she was just traveling.

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Speaker 3: That was it. That's the thing with this crowd. You know,

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Speaker 3: there are travelers.

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Speaker 2: People travel, people do, but the line between traveling, the

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Speaker 2: line between homelessness, it gets blurry at times.

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Speaker 1: For people who don't know much about hostels. I have

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Speaker 1: only gone to hostels in Europe. I've never been to

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Speaker 1: a US hostile before. Tell me about that, because it's

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Speaker 1: kind of its own community. Many times of young people

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Speaker 1: who are going from city to city and paying for

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Speaker 1: a place to stay that is much less than a hotel,

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Speaker 1: but safer than obviously being out on the street.

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Speaker 2: The hostile community is basically the traveling community. They're people

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Speaker 2: who enjoy traveling, people who just enjoy exploring, And they

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Speaker 2: were just people who just wanted to see more, wanted

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Speaker 2: to see more in life, and didn't believe he needed

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Speaker 2: a million dollars to do so. And Audrey was very

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Speaker 2: much part of that set. She had a very bright

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Speaker 2: future ahead of her. She did volunteer work in Quebec,

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Speaker 2: she was studying to be a lawyer at one point

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Speaker 2: before she took time off to travel. And she was

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Speaker 2: just described by her mother as an overall very kind,

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Speaker 2: very bright eyed, very sweet girl.

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Speaker 1: Was she on her own or was she traveling with

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Speaker 1: a group?

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Speaker 2: She was on her own. That tells you a lot

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Speaker 2: about the kind of person that she was. To be

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Speaker 2: a young woman of that age, To be willing to

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Speaker 2: leave your friends or your family and explore the world

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Speaker 2: on your.

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Speaker 3: Own, that's huge. That says a lot.

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Speaker 2: About how independent she was, how much she was willing

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Speaker 2: to explore, how much she wanted to see She did it,

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Speaker 2: she did.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So Audrey is on her own and she's traveling,

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Speaker 1: and what happens the day when she gets killed? Where

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Speaker 1: is she? Where is she going?

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Speaker 2: So there is a music festival in San Francisco that weekend,

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Speaker 2: hardly strictly blue grass music festival. It's plain it's in

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Speaker 2: Golden Gate Park. And Golden Gate Park is just kind

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Speaker 2: of the place where a lot of people, a lot

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Speaker 2: of transient youth spend the nights, a really wild sort

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Speaker 2: of park, a lot a lot of nooks and crannies

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Speaker 2: people can hide for tonight. It was the typical sort

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Speaker 2: of beautiful Indian summer in San Francisco and October it

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Speaker 2: gets really really hot, and it was really hot, really beautiful,

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Speaker 2: really balmy, And that day she ran into this trio

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Speaker 2: Hayes Lampley, Yla Olligood and Sean Engeld.

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Speaker 1: So these were unhoused youth right they were in Haye Ashbury.

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Speaker 1: Is that the part of San Francisco that she was

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Speaker 1: in at the Golden Gate Park was the hayd Ashbury section.

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Speaker 2: Yes, hate Ashbury butts up to kind of the entrance

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Speaker 2: at Golden Gate Park, and then Golden Gate Park extends

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Speaker 2: all the way out towards the ocean, and then what

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Speaker 2: kind of happens within the traveling community. She kind of

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Speaker 2: just hooked up with these kids and hung out with them.

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Speaker 2: For the rest of the day.

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Speaker 1: The thing with this.

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Speaker 2: Traveling community you make friends easily and you lose friends easily.

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Speaker 2: And so she was friends with them for a day

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Speaker 2: and that was it.

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Speaker 1: So let's go through their ages. Audrey Carey is twenty

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Speaker 1: three years old. Then in this group of people that

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Speaker 1: she meets are eighteen years old. Lilah Scott Alligod Sean

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Speaker 1: Engold is twenty four, and Lilah's boyfriend, Hayes Lampley, is

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Speaker 1: twenty three, and he's sort of the ringleader of this

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Speaker 1: whole group. So everyone in this part of the story

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Speaker 1: is in their twenties except for Lila. So they hang

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Speaker 1: out and they're having a good time together. When does

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Speaker 1: it seem like, now that you know the whole story,

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Speaker 1: when does it seem like things change and why do

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Speaker 1: they change in this group of three young people who

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Speaker 1: were unhoused and this young woman who is just traveling

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Speaker 1: from area to area.

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Speaker 3: Let's back up a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I ended up having a lot of long interviews with

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Speaker 2: Hayes Lampley when he was in prison. I spoke to

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Speaker 2: him in depth about what happens, everything that happened about

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Speaker 2: his life, and he told me exactly what he said happens.

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Speaker 2: What I wrote in the book is a combination of

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Speaker 2: his accounts what the police belief happens. But little Sean

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Speaker 2: was able to tell me before Sean stopped training my

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Speaker 2: calls and yeah, according to Hayes, Hayes had started to

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Speaker 2: sour on the street life around this time. It's hard living.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is you can only travel for so

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Speaker 2: long before you realize that you're not so much traveling

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Speaker 2: as you're really kind of trying to have something to do,

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Speaker 2: rather than say that you are unhoused. And so he

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Speaker 2: wanted out, but he didn't really know how to get out.

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Speaker 2: And that's the thing with a lot of these kids.

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Speaker 2: When we're feeling uncharitable. We look at these kids and

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Speaker 2: we call them homeless by choice, that terrible word, holmost

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Speaker 2: by choice, but whether or not they're homeless by choice,

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Speaker 2: which is also a loaded concept because it's.

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Speaker 3: Like, what are their choices?

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Speaker 2: Do they stay home again abused, do they stay addicted

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Speaker 2: to drugs that they have some mental illness?

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Speaker 3: You know, what are their choices? Exactly?

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Speaker 2: We say by choice, But then the real question is

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Speaker 2: do they have the choice or the option to not

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Speaker 2: be homeless again?

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Speaker 3: In this very situation.

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Speaker 2: What I found in my investigation in reporting this story

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Speaker 2: was that in the search to not be unhoused anymore,

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Speaker 2: that was what essentially led Hayes Lampley, Leila Oligod, and

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Speaker 2: Shawn Engeld to kill two people. They were looking for,

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Speaker 2: essentially a quick way to make some cash and a

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Speaker 2: quick way to escape and get to an almost promised land.

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Speaker 1: What promised land was that what were they thinking they

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Speaker 1: were going to accomplish with? What the fifty bucks or

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Speaker 1: something that Audrey probably had honor.

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Speaker 3: So Hayes Lampley his entire life, he had so little.

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Speaker 2: He grew up in a family of atticts, All of

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Speaker 2: them had some kind of relationships to being unhoused at

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Speaker 2: some point in their lives. He was in and out

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Speaker 2: of foster care. He told me that he was abused

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Speaker 2: sexually by his father. His father's family has denied that,

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Speaker 2: of course. He's also told me that he was also

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Speaker 2: physically abused as well. And he also told me he

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Speaker 2: witnessed a lot of violence early on, especially living on

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Speaker 2: the streets, you will witness a lot of violence, to

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Speaker 2: witness a lot of awful things period. But the one

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Speaker 2: thing that always got him through was that he was

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Speaker 2: told that in his family, all the male descendants in

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Speaker 2: his family had a right to a parcel of land

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Speaker 2: in upstate organ And it was not a large area

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Speaker 2: of land. It was only like a few acres. I mean,

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Speaker 2: of course, it's beautiful, lush Oregon forest, as you can imagine.

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Speaker 2: I never got to actually see it by I drove

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Speaker 2: up in the area where it was, and it was

249
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Speaker 2: so far up. The radio signal goes out, the creek

250
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Speaker 2: is babbling on the side, everything smells like pine, and

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Speaker 2: it's just the roads are all twisty and dirts.

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Speaker 1: It's very isolated where you could be off the grid essentially.

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Speaker 2: And you can imagine how wonderful that must sound to

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Speaker 2: a kid that had to live on the streets for

255
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Speaker 2: most of his life. So for him, he wanted to

256
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Speaker 2: get there, and he kept telling Kyla Alligood. He kept

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Speaker 2: telling her, you know, we're gonna get there. We're going

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Speaker 2: to escape, we're gonna get married. I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: you up there, and we're gonna in peace. We're not

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Speaker 2: going to have to worry about anything ever.

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Speaker 3: Again.

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Speaker 2: Along the way in San Francisco, their friend Sean caught on.

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Speaker 2: By the time I spoke to Hayes Lampley in prison.

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Speaker 2: Sean Engeld had struck a deal with the prosecution to

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Speaker 2: testify against Hayes and Lila, So Hayes was rather.

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Speaker 3: Sour against Sean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so he tells me that he never intended to

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Speaker 2: bring Sean to the land, but that Sean just kind

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Speaker 2: of jumped on was part of it.

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Speaker 1: So Hayes is telling you through your correspondence that his

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Speaker 1: intention was not to rob Audrey carry of money in

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Speaker 1: order to supplement a drug issue that any of these

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Speaker 1: three young people might have had. It's more of to

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Speaker 1: purchase two bus tickets to get up to Oregon. So

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Speaker 1: he and Lila consert a new life.

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Speaker 3: Something along those lines.

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Speaker 2: At that time, they still definitely had pretty heavy meth problems.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what did you think about that? Did you believe

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Speaker 1: it when he said that, or did that seem like

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Speaker 1: something he was telling you as some sort of fanciful

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Speaker 1: explanation for how things went so wrong with her?

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Speaker 2: Well? I could believe was that crime within that community

283
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Speaker 2: could also run so rampant that whatever purpose it was for,

284
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Speaker 2: it didn't matter. Yeah, what it came down to is

285
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Speaker 2: that they were going to rob Audrey Carrey.

286
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Speaker 3: He told me they never meant to kill her. That's

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Speaker 3: what he said.

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Speaker 1: So what happened? They're hanging out all day long? Are

289
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Speaker 1: the three of them using drugs all day? Is meth

290
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Speaker 1: a player in all of this?

291
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Speaker 2: Yes, there is meth involved. There was a lot of myth.

292
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Speaker 2: There were smoking myths, smoking pots.

293
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Speaker 3: There is meth.

294
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Speaker 2: Found an Audrey Carrey system when she died. We got

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Speaker 2: it back up a little bit to maybe a day before.

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Speaker 2: They were just kind of pulling on car doors and

297
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Speaker 2: trying to see if they could find one of those unlocked.

298
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Speaker 2: They found one that happened to be unlocked. And this

299
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Speaker 2: was clear across the city. By the way, this was

300
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Speaker 2: the busiest weekend in San Francisco. This is what's so

301
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Speaker 2: interesting about this, Like this is historically always the busiest

302
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Speaker 2: weekend in San Francisco. During this weekend, it's this music

303
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Speaker 2: festival and also Fleet week And they were by the Peers,

304
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Speaker 2: they were by quite tower in the north and they're

305
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Speaker 2: pulling on car doors when they found one that was unlocked.

306
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Speaker 2: And in that unlocked car, they found a fully loaded

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Speaker 2: gun and they took that gun and they just figured

308
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Speaker 2: they found the jackpot, because you know, on the street.

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Speaker 2: You're always looking for protection, and they found the ultimate

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Speaker 2: form of.

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Speaker 1: Protection and they could sell it if they needed some

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Speaker 1: extra money. I mean, that would be my thought, is

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Speaker 1: just sell the gun, you know, why have to rob somebody?

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Speaker 1: But is Audrey with them when this happens or no, okay,

315
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Speaker 1: they haven't met her yet. This is the day before.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, so Audrey has no idea they have a gun.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

318
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Speaker 2: The thing that was so scary about these murders was

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Speaker 2: that when their photos of these kids went up on

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Speaker 2: the TV screens, they looked at all the kids that

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Speaker 2: you see on the streets. They didn't look like they

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Speaker 2: would cause any harm, and so everybody looked at them,

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Speaker 2: and they're like, what the hell could they also be coming.

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Speaker 3: To murder us?

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Speaker 2: When I suppoke to Hayes Lampley, I really wanted some

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Speaker 2: kind of remorse from him, you know, I really wanted

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Speaker 2: some kind of remembrance from him, especially about this young

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Speaker 2: girl who was around his age. But he didn't really

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Speaker 2: remember anything about her. She had no recollection of her

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Speaker 2: at all. Really.

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Speaker 3: He spoke about.

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Speaker 2: How she had a big bag of carrots. He spoke

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Speaker 2: about how she had accents because she was from Canada,

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Speaker 2: and they figured that she would have a lot of

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Speaker 2: money on her and so they made a plan that

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Speaker 2: they would rob her.

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Speaker 1: After spending the day with her, or was that the

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Speaker 1: plan to begin with when they met her. According to Hayes.

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Speaker 3: That was the plan to begin with, that they would

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Speaker 3: rob her eventually.

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Speaker 2: And then night fell, they start bunking down and according

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Speaker 2: to Sean Engeld, this is when Audrey thanked them for

343
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Speaker 2: being her friends that day.

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Speaker 3: And then that is when.

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Speaker 2: Leila Olligood pounced on her and they start try and

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Speaker 2: tie her up. When she starts fighting back and refusing

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Speaker 2: to be tied up, the gun comes out. And that

348
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Speaker 2: is the point of contention. Who drew the gun Hayes says,

349
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Speaker 2: Sean Engel drew the gun. Well, Sean says Hayes drew

350
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Speaker 2: the gun, but either way, the next day, Audrey Carey's

351
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Speaker 2: body was found with the gunshot wounds the head.

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Speaker 1: What I find a little confusing about this story, and

353
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Speaker 1: maybe you don't, and you can give me some clarity,

354
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Speaker 1: is why not just get the gun out pointed at her,

355
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Speaker 1: demand the money and then kick her out and that's

356
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Speaker 1: the end of it. Why does it escalate? Why try

357
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Speaker 1: to even tie her up. There's no need if you

358
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Speaker 1: have a gun. It just seems confusing. Or are we

359
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Speaker 1: sure that this was not actually an intentional killing.

360
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Speaker 2: You have to remember that these are, for lack of

361
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,000
Speaker 2: a better word, kids. Hayes was twenty three, Sean was

362
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Speaker 2: twenty four. But these are especially when you're growing up

363
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,600
Speaker 2: on the streets, so your development is stunted, your maturity

364
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,960
Speaker 2: is stunted. Things went south really fast. The way Hayes

365
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,840
Speaker 2: described it to me, Lila was on top of Audrey,

366
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Speaker 2: straddling her, trying to hold her down. They were fighting,

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Speaker 2: They were thrashing, and somebody was holding a gun to

368
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Speaker 2: Audrey's head try to get her to stop fighting, but

369
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Speaker 2: Audrey wouldn't stop fighting, and the struggle the gun went off.

370
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Speaker 1: What do they do next? She's found in the park,

371
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Speaker 1: is she in a tent? Or where is she?

372
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Speaker 2: She's found in the bushes. This was always a jarring

373
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Speaker 2: tidbit for me. If Lila is straddling Audrey, then she

374
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Speaker 2: would have been really up close to watching somebody essentially

375
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,879
Speaker 2: get the brain blown up. All of them would have

376
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Speaker 2: been really close to it. But according to Hayes, they

377
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 2: calmly got up. They went to Ocean Beach, which is

378
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,920
Speaker 2: pretty close to where Audrey's body was found. They walked

379
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,959
Speaker 2: to Ocean Beach, they cleaned up, and then they walked

380
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,120
Speaker 2: a little ways farther down to another neighborhood that was nearby,

381
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Speaker 2: and they waited till next morning and they got frappuccinos

382
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Speaker 2: for Starbucks.

383
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Speaker 1: With her money. I'm assuming how much money did they

384
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Speaker 1: end up collecting from her?

385
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Speaker 3: Several hundred dollars.

386
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Speaker 1: Okay, that was it, and that's what their aim was

387
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Speaker 1: was to get this money. Does Hayes then say, Okay,

388
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Speaker 1: We've done what I promised. We've robbed somebody. I have

389
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Speaker 1: this money, Lila. Let's pack up, let's go get on

390
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Speaker 1: a bus and head to Oregon.

391
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Speaker 3: Yeah, they said, let's head north. Let's go. And their

392
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Speaker 3: plan was that they could make it by walking. They

393
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:06,200
Speaker 3: could do it.

394
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Speaker 1: From San Francisco to Oregon. Yeah, okay, and so.

395
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,800
Speaker 2: They believed it, and so they start heading north. They

396
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,119
Speaker 2: crossed the Golden Gate Bridge. They spend some time in

397
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Speaker 2: Saucelito and they just keep walking, and you know, as

398
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 2: they're walking, they're realizing, we're not going to make it.

399
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,680
Speaker 2: This is taking a while. And also we've got to

400
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 2: keep in mind too. They're on a lot of drugs.

401
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 2: They're coming in and off of highs.

402
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:38,160
Speaker 4: They're not feeling great.

403
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 2: What happens next They realized they need to get a car,

404
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 2: and that's where they get there, runningto Steve Carter. So

405
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 2: Steve Carter had only just moved to Marine County. He

406
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,080
Speaker 2: and his wife Lukita had recently built their dream home

407
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 2: in Costa Rica, but they moved to Marine County because

408
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,640
Speaker 2: Loquita was diagnosed with breast can and she needed treatment.

409
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,399
Speaker 2: And so they're in Mourn County stand with friends and Steve,

410
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,199
Speaker 2: as an avid outdoorsman, said he wanted to go on

411
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,480
Speaker 2: a walk with his dog, and so he took his doorman, Coco,

412
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: out for a walk on a hiking trail and as

413
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 2: he's pulling up, there are these three kids.

414
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Speaker 3: Lila, according to Hayes.

415
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 2: Kicked Steve because Steve had white hair, and she figured

416
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 2: he's old and we can take him.

417
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Speaker 3: And so they said, all right, let's do this.

418
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Speaker 2: They go down to the trail, to the start of

419
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 2: the trail, they hide a bike that they stole, and

420
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,399
Speaker 2: they wait. They wait for him to come back up

421
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 2: the trail. Other people pass them, but they wait for him.

422
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 1: And they encounter him, and does he think twice according

423
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,159
Speaker 1: to them, or does he pass by, or what happens.

424
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Speaker 2: The first time he saw them, He kind of looked

425
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 2: at them oddly before getting out of his car and

426
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 2: taking his dog out.

427
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Speaker 3: But the hardest thing.

428
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 2: About this case, you know, I found, was that the

429
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 2: victims in this case were the sort of people that

430
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 2: really would have a lot of compassion for their murderers.

431
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 2: Was a Tantra instructor. He was very much a kind person.

432
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,159
Speaker 2: His wife writes about him very eloquently on her blog

433
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 2: and just talking about just what a wonderful, kind, loving

434
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 2: man he was. He might have looked at them suspiciously once,

435
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 2: but he never would have prejudged them. And so he

436
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 2: returns up the trail, and Hayes is very clear that

437
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 2: this time he has the gun and he points it

438
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 2: at them and tells him to give him the keys.

439
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 2: This is where I really kind of questioned Hayes's credibility.

440
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 2: So Steve Carter was shot multiple times, multiple multiple times.

441
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 2: There were so many shots fired that the dog was

442
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 2: shot through the eye and almost ad un survived, but

443
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,400
Speaker 2: the dog survived. Hayes Lampley claimed that he never meant

444
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 2: to kill the old man, is what his exact words were.

445
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 2: But he says that he accidentally tripped and pulled the trigger.

446
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 1: Five times or however many times it was hit.

447
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 2: It's a semi automatic, but no kind of alterations to it.

448
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,159
Speaker 2: You would have to pull it over and over and

449
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 2: over and over again.

450
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 1: Did you challenge him on that when he told you

451
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: or did you just get the information and think about

452
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: it later on?

453
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: I did challenge him on that, and he said, that's

454
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,479
Speaker 2: exactly what's what happened. That was also another thing that

455
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 2: came up in my reporting. I did have to question

456
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 2: whether or not his mind had been so skewed from

457
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 2: all the drugs and all the abuse and all the

458
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 2: psychological damage that he's endured in his life that maybe

459
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 2: he just doesn't perceive things the same way.

460
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: Or he's an habitual liar one or the other. Right

461
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: that as well, You've referred to these three people, Lilah

462
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,120
Speaker 1: and Sean and Hayes as kids, and they're not kids, right,

463
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 1: We've talked about they're eighteen and in their twenties, but

464
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 1: that they have that mentality At some point, do you

465
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 1: rethink that I know that the three of them have

466
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: this background that I'm assuming is full of abuse, that

467
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: stuff that we've talked about. But at this point, is

468
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: it hard toferentiate between sort of the appearance and this

469
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: delayed maturity that unhoused youth who don't commit crimes on

470
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: the street have versus this trio of people who clearly

471
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 1: have enough maturity to know how to pull off two

472
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 1: fairly brutal crimes.

473
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: I wouldn't describe anything about these crimes as mature. Okay,

474
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: from the very beginning they were incredibly slap dash and

475
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: incredibly off the cuff. Yeah, and that was what struck

476
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 2: me so much about this. It's hard because you don't

477
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: want to write off the responsibility and the gravity of this.

478
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 2: They absolutely need to own up to what they did,

479
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 2: and they absolutely must. We cannot forget the fact that

480
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: these kids are basically stunted to some extent. It doesn't

481
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,719
Speaker 2: diminish what they did, right, and they absolutely have to

482
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 2: take responsibility for that, and they are serving time for that.

483
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that we should feel bad for them

484
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,160
Speaker 2: or anything like that, but like, at the same time,

485
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 2: I think we need to have some understanding about that,

486
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: and especially as we look at all these other this

487
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 2: population before us.

488
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 3: We need to have some understanding about that as well.

489
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what happens. Steve is shot and killed,

490
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: and I'm assuming that this trio takes Steve's keys, and

491
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: then they had North in the car. Is that right?

492
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

493
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: They had North in the car. And this is what

494
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: I meant by the plan was not smooth at all.

495
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: They were tracked immediately because the car had a tracker

496
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 2: on it.

497
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, yeah.

498
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: So I mean they were followed straight to a Portland

499
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 2: soup kitchen and they're essentially arrested outside of Portland soup kitchen.

500
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 2: When they were brought in to the county jail, they

501
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,239
Speaker 2: had to shave their heads because they had lice in

502
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: their hair, they had drug sores on their body. They

503
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 2: just obviously were living hard for a very long time.

504
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: So they are arrested. Do any of them the three

505
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: of them talk or turn on each other? How do

506
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 1: their cases each unfold? And on top of that, how

507
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: did they connect them to Audrey? Is it the gun

508
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: is the key?

509
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 3: The gun is the key.

510
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,239
Speaker 2: It was the same gun used in both cases, and

511
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 2: so they're able to connect into Audrey and they're able

512
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: to get Sean engeled to become a witness for a prosecution.

513
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 2: He testified against Lyla and Hayes in exchange for our

514
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: letter sentence.

515
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: And he absolved himself. I'm assuming of the actual pulling

516
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: the trigger murder in Audrey's case.

517
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: In both cases, honestly, yeah.

518
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: Okay, So what sentence does Sean get with this plea deal?

519
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: Sean has sent us to fifteen years to life, okay.

520
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,479
Speaker 2: Leila Ali Goett has sent this to twenty five years,

521
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 2: and Hayes lamp into fifty years.

522
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: So do they both go on trial? Lyla and Hayes.

523
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: They go on trial for a little bit, but eventually

524
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 2: just they plead out.

525
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: Okay, So Hayes gets fifty alife. Are they charged with

526
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: both of these murders?

527
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? But under California law they changed it that if

528
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 2: you were twenty three years old and you're charged with

529
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: a life sentence, then you can be released in twenty

530
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 2: five years.

531
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 3: He could be up for parole.

532
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: What do you think about that, knowing his background versus

533
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: his actions, what do you think about that being up

534
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: for parole?

535
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: I think let's go through each one for Sean Engelds.

536
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: I worried about Sean Engeld's safety because you know, as

537
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: somebody who testifies against their Coote defendants, you are a

538
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 2: reputation in prison. I know for a fact that he

539
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: was scared when I was talking to him for a

540
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 2: little bit. But when I did talk to him, he

541
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 2: did seem like he wanted to change. Laila Ali Gud

542
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 2: I never got to talk to and.

543
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: She was eighteen when all this happened, right.

544
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: Yes, she was eighteen, and she was the only one

545
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: to actually speak at the sentence scene and apologize the victims' families.

546
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: What did she say? What was her explanation for all this?

547
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 2: All she could really do is apologize for her role. Okay,

548
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: she cried quite a bit. She apologized, which is more

549
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: than I can really say. For Hayes, he apologized through

550
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 2: his attorneyologized to me in our interviews, but I never

551
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: really got the sense that he really meant it.

552
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: I also got the sense that with Hayes, he's also

553
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 3: still in survival mold. If that makes.

554
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: Sense, especially in prison, you would think.

555
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 2: I think it's just one of those things that, especially

556
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: if it's ingrained in he as a young kid, especially

557
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 2: if you start living in the streets as a young kid,

558
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: you don't know how to turn it off, and in

559
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: those situations, compassion remorse, that's a weakness. Honestly, it's a

560
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: privilege to be able to feel remorse. If he had

561
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 2: to feel remorse for everything that he's done in his life,

562
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 2: it would be a lot. He's done a lot of things,

563
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 2: a lot of things that he didn't think were wrong

564
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: at the time, but it was just part of living

565
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: on the streets. I'm an internal optimist. I like to

566
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 2: believe that there's a chance for everybody. There's a chance

567
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 2: for everybody to be redeemed, to realize where they've gone wrong.

568
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: But that's going to take a lot for him, and

569
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: it's going to be very difficult for him. He's going

570
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: to need a lot of supports and a lot of

571
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 2: people around him that I don't think he has.

572
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: So that's one of the things I was going to

573
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: ask is at these trials or these different hearings, did

574
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: these three young people have people from their families come

575
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: and support them or did they have any support other

576
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: than just public defenders?

577
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 2: Not really No. For Hayes Lampley, especially, his mother couldn't travel.

578
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 2: I was in touch with his mother, who really turned

579
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: her life around. She had a life a lot of

580
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: Keys's life. She was an addict. She grew up abused,

581
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: She grew up on house quite a bit.

582
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: She grew up transient quite a bit.

583
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: Her family traveled around because they had nowhere else to stay.

584
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: Because of her criminal record, she couldn't travel and she

585
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: couldn't come see him, She couldn't visit him, and because

586
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: of that, she still can't visit him in prison, which

587
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: is probably one of the harder things, I think, because

588
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: she is one of the people who's always been in

589
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 2: his corner, and I think she's somebody that he needs.

590
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: Right now, let's go back. I didn't ask this, but

591
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: what were the backgrounds of Lila and Sean their family backgrounds?

592
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: Did you know much about them?

593
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

594
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: Sean angeled He had a similar background to Hayesland flee

595
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: and that he was in foster care and he was abused.

596
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: He ended up in the streets pretty early on in

597
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 2: his life. He didn't go much in detail with me,

598
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: but he had awful memories of his foster parents trying

599
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: to drown him and those sort of memories of abuse.

600
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: Do you know much about Lila?

601
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: Lilah definitely had a more privileged background.

602
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: Leila. She grew up in Hawaii.

603
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: She grew up the child of divorce, started acting out

604
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: as a teenager. I spoke to a classmate of hers

605
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: that said that she was a bit of a bully

606
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: and had some behavior issues that were really questionable. That's

607
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: raised a lot of questions about what was happening to

608
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: her that nobody else was really kind of.

609
00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 3: Seen, if that makes sense.

610
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was so young.

611
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: So young, and by the time that she was sixteen,

612
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: she was on the streets.

613
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: Okay, So back to the trial. What about Audrey's family.

614
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: Do they come, I'm assuming do they come from Canada

615
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: to see the proceedings.

616
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: They were unable to come from Canada, but they send

617
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: the statements.

618
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure they were heartbroken. It must have just been

619
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: horrendous for them to see their daughter go off travel

620
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: and then not come back.

621
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: Isabelle Tremblay, Audrey Carey's mother, has become a huge advocate

622
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: for victims of crimes since this has happens. She still

623
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: posts on Facebook often about her daughter.

624
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 3: You don't recover for something like that.

625
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,239
Speaker 2: Well, there needs to be some understanding about why this

626
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: happens and how this happens.

627
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 3: We can't forget what happened?

628
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: How do you reconcile though? The idea and we kind

629
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: of touched on this before, the idea of someone with

630
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: such a difficult background like Hayes Lampley, how do you

631
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: balance that as a journalist? To me, it must be

632
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: very difficult.

633
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: When I started reporting this case, I realized early on

634
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: it wasn't just about murder. I realized it was about

635
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: an entire population that was being either criminalized or overlooked.

636
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: And it was this traveling, transit street kid population, this

637
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: population that these convicted murderers came from. I went into

638
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: this because I wanted to say, you know, not all

639
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: these kids are going to murder you. Everyone clutching the

640
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: pearls was freaking out about at first, But I wanted

641
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: to understand, you know, just why and how did we

642
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: get to this moment in time. And the scary thing

643
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: I found was it wasn't hard to understand. It wasn't

644
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: hard to see the lines of how we got to

645
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: where we were, and it's a path that hundreds and

646
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: thousands of kids are currently on.

647
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: What do you think the systemic problem here is that

648
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: would have helped in this case? Is it intervention. Is

649
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: it abuse? I mean, it just seems like it starts

650
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: from birth in how you stop this from happening for

651
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: a population of young people to be forced out onto

652
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: the street. And you have this great quote in the book,

653
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: which is when you're asking them, do you choose to

654
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 1: do this? And that's not the question. The question is

655
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: can you not choose to do this? Which is they

656
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: feel like this is the only choice they have. So

657
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 1: how do you then have this group on the streets

658
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: because they feel like having a choice, but not react

659
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: out of total self preservation, which is sometimes breaking the law.

660
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: What I found is that every case needs a specific

661
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: individual approach, and you just can't do that. And the

662
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: systems we have in place, we can't afford to be like, oh,

663
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: this person needs X, Y and Z, but this person

664
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: needs a B and C. We just don't have the

665
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: time or resources to do that. But every kid is different,

666
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: every story is different. Well works for one kid doesn't

667
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: work for another kid. And that's the problem that we

668
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: have all these blanket solutions and it just doesn't work

669
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: for everybody, and one doesn't work for everybody, we say

670
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: it doesn't work at all, and then we throw it away.

671
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 3: And we ignore the ones it does work for.

672
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: Has this reporting that you've done on this story in

673
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: writing this book informed how you approach stories in the future,

674
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: what you're doing right now, How has it changed you

675
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: as a writer.

676
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 2: I've always reported on things, you know, with open eyes,

677
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: but now I try to do so now, I mean,

678
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: this is really corny.

679
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 3: I try to do so with.

680
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: An open heart as well, because it's just we steel

681
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: ourselves against these kids so instinctively, almost, and like, you

682
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: know exactly what I'm talking about. You see these kids

683
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 2: and you just your hackles go up. You hate them

684
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: on site, and we need to ask ourselves why.

685
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 3: Do we hate them so much? And it's just like, honestly,

686
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 3: we hate them because we failed them.

687
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: I think there are people, well, certainly there's a large

688
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: portion of young, unhoused people who don't commit crimes, who

689
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: feel like they need to be there on the streets,

690
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: who aren't hurting other people. And I think it is

691
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: easy to read the headlines and concentrate on the ones

692
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: who are threats, who are the clear and present danger,

693
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: versus trying to figure out what systemic issue is causing

694
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: all of this, right, And I don't think that it

695
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: is to say that what happened in this case, it's

696
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: like you said before, very eloquently, they shouldn't be absolved

697
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: of this, of course not. They committed crimes, two crimes

698
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: against two innocent people. But it's not as cut and

699
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: dry as most crime cases are. Let's talk a little

700
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: bit about San Francisco's response to all of this, to

701
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: this type of story. This is a city that is

702
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: known for being one of the most progressive cities in

703
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: the country, and yet because of the very large unhoused

704
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: population in the city, it makes people uncomfortable, and all

705
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you see these progressive people do it

706
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: turn about when it comes to talking about unhoused people

707
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: in the city.

708
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: San Francisco breaks my heart often, and never more so

709
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: than when it comes to the issue of unhoused individuals.

710
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: Like he said, San Francisco has a reputation of being

711
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 2: one of the most progressive cities in the country, but

712
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: it also is one of the cities with the harshest

713
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 2: anti homeless laws. It's illegal to sit on the street,

714
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: it's legal to lie down in the streets, it's illegal

715
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 2: to pitch a tent in the streets, it's illegal to

716
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: exist pretty much if you're un housed. If we talk

717
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 2: to anybody who's on housed in San Francisco, it's hard

718
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: for them.

719
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 3: A lot of.

720
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: Them were not on house for long. San Francisco's rents

721
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: prices are so astronomical. A lot of people in San

722
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 2: Francisco are not that far away from being unhoused themselves.

723
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: Did you get criticism for this book?

724
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: I wonder I did.

725
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: That must be hard.

726
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, of course, there's always going to be

727
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: people who said, you know, like, why are you humanizing murderers?

728
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 2: But this wasn't just about murderers. This wasn't just about

729
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: the three kids. This wasn't just about Hayes Lampley, Sean

730
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: Engld and Wailah Allygood. This is about the one hundreds

731
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 2: and thousands of kids who are existing right now and

732
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: that we either ignore or just disdain, and they've never

733
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: been given a chance, and we need to help them.

734
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Susan jonesis on

735
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: the bloody Benders within a community.

736
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 5: This family are masquerading as kind of upstanding, if stand

737
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 5: office citizens, and then over a three year period they

738
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 5: kill eleven people at least within that area. Both from

739
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 5: that community and passing through and then obviously they flee.

740
00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 5: It's a mystery.

741
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available now,

742
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked is based on

743
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: our first season of tenfold More Wicked. You might think

744
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: you know the whole story of killer Edward Ruloff's crimes,

745
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: but there's so much more. My book American Sherlock is

746
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: also available. This has been an exactly right tenfold war

747
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: Media production. The producer is Alexis Emirosi. Our mixer is

748
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: Ryo Baum. Curtis Heath is Our composer, Nick Toga did

749
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: the artwork. Ilsabrink designed the website. The executive producers are

750
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words

751
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on

752
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at tenfold More and If you know of a

753
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Speaker 1: historical crime that could use some attention, especially if it

754
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Speaker 1: happened in your family, email us at info at tenfoldwar

755
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Speaker 1: Wicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for true

756
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Speaker 1: crime authors for Wicked Words