WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 159 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.480 Also media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:08.520 to let you know this is a compilation episode. So 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.160 every episode of the week that just happened is here 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:16.200 in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.400 you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:20.959 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:22.720 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:24.840 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.840 Welcome to it could happen here, a show about things 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:32.479 falling apart. We are back from our little break, and 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.880 today I'm joined with Robert Evans to discuss fascism. 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:42.199 I guess, yeah, yeah, I'm here. We're talking fascism. Listeners, 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.080 excuse me. I have a Citus infection. So that's why 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:46.040 it sound this way. 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.880 Oh that's why you sound like that. Uh huh. 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:51.560 That sucks life. 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:54.520 Yeah, well, it might not suck as much as what 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.600 I had to do last week, which is watch this 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.000 six part documentary about the twenty twenty five for Trump 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.520 election campaign. God well, the art of the surge. 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:05.360 I don't know. 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.160 Overall, it was actually pretty boring. They were obviously trying 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.240 to edit it like a succession episode. Oh my god, 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:16.160 really obnoxious. There is some insight into like the inner 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:18.760 workings of the Trump team, like watching him and his 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:21.800 team react to the Kamala Harris DNC speech and like 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:26.440 workshop counter messaging was actually interesting, and the doc does 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.959 show kind of Musk's influence steadily ramping up starting in July. 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:35.160 The only time you see Trump advance together is after 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.319 Trump's ABC debate, when JD like preps him for the 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.080 Spin room. That's the only time, Wow, we see them 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:41.600 in a act. 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.840 I mean, yeah, that makes sense, Like I wouldn't want 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:47.560 to be in a room with JD vans more than 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:49.400 I had to be, although the fact that he does 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:51.960 want to be in a room with Musk is bafflt. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.800 Yes, and actually Musk and JD get along quite well 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.440 in the interactions that are seeing in the documentary, Malania, 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.200 Trump never appears once, not a single time. 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:04.760 Well, it's good to know that they've they've managed to 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:06.440 put together a functional throuble. 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.760 Ooh, don't like that. Don't like that at all? First, buddy, 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:14.920 the ikes. My biggest takeaway from this documentary is that 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.760 it just showed how much his rallies are a religious 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:24.440 experience for his supporters like deeply, deeply religious, especially the 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:28.440 Butler Pennsylvania rallies, where everyone talks about it like they 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.560 would like like a genuine like limit experience or religious experience. 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.040 Right now this episode, I actually I want to focus 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.200 on the rhetoric employed at these rallies in attempts to 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.040 label Trump a fascists. There's been a lot of discussion 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:48.120 on like Trump's authoritarian and dictatorial desires and tendencies and 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.720 expressions of those fears in particular were not enough to 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.840 persuade the majority of voters against Trump, let alone safe 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.800 and Republican support towards Harris and we on this show 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:02.079 have not talked much about the escalation of rhetoric used 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.920 by Trump and his allies this campaign cycle, with the 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.640 Biden administration's horrific border policies and the enabling of Israel's 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.080 genocidal actions in Gaza drawing a great deal of our 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.480 attention in the past few months. But now I do 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.600 want to draw attention to the ethno nationalist framing that 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:20.240 has become all too common, especially with the Democrats just 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.880 complete submission to Trump and the GOP's distinct focus on 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:28.560 immigration as the top issue facing America. So part of 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.160 what I'm gonna do here is I've outlined a few 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.440 clips and some quotes I'm trying. I tried to limit 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:34.960 the clips because I know no one wants to hear 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.760 Trump and these guys talk for too long, but I 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:41.320 will place some And Robert, you've spent a lot of 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.200 your time thinking about fascism in the past few years 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.760 and reading about fascism, so I'm certainly curious on your 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.440 thoughts on some of these clips and quotes. As we'll 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.120 kind of go through like three specific rallies, mostly great 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.120 and outline what type of rhetoric they are using and 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.200 what it kind of points to historically. Now, one of 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.320 the reoccurring phrases at Trump rallies this cycle was that 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:08.000 the United States has become an occupied territory. Here's Trump 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.880 invoking that language at a rally in Atlanta a week 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:11.880 before the election. 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.960 But it will soon be an occupied country no longer. 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:21.039 November fifth, twenty twenty four, will be Liberation Day in America, 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.800 and during day one, I will launch the largest deportation 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:28.640 program in American history. 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.040 We're going to get these criminals out. 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.680 I will rescue every city in town that has been 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:37.120 invaded and conquered. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.720 These towns have been conquered, you know, they have been invaded. 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.480 And can you imagine, just as though a foreign enemy 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.560 was invading, a military was invading. 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.680 Okay, I will rescue every city in town that has 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:51.640 been invaded and. 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:52.680 Conquered, conquered. 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.600 Yeah, just as though an enemy, a foreign enemy was invading. 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.200 Yeah, I mean that's I don't even know what to 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.080 say about that. It's like that's textbook fascist shit, right, Like, 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.440 I mean, among other things, ramping everyone up to justify, 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:11.960 you know, at least the potential for violence against migrants. 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.080 You know, it's it's self defense, right. 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:18.520 Yeah. Now, I like to focus first on the Madison 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:23.240 Square Garden rally, certainly the Puerto Rico floating Island of garbage. 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.080 Comments from the roast comedian got a lot of media attention, 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.680 but what got less coverage was the much more historically 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:33.120 worrying statements made by those within Trump's circle. Let's start 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.280 with Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller. 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.520 America is for Americans and Americans only. 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.839 So, Robert, does that phrase remind you of any other 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.640 phrases that have been used over time? 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:50.800 Yeah, I mean, like one people, one vulc one Reich, Right, 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.720 I guess, yeah. I mean again, like I don't even 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.120 know what to say at this point, right, Like we're 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.679 it's so obvious. When I started in the warning people 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.600 about fascism game, you had to like explain a lot 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.200 of history and then sort of like walk in. Here's 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.280 how you know this is a sign post. I mean, 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:10.280 when someone doesn't eighty eight this is what it means 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.000 or whatever, and we're so far past that, like. 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.080 Well, and and specifically this one invokes the Germany is 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.640 for the Germans, which is ya a phrase that is 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.479 banned in Germany now due to its use during the 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:22.040 Nazi era. 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.120 That gives us something to look forward to now. 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:28.239 In a rant advocating for election denial in the case 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.920 of Trump losing the election, Tucker Carlson referred to Kamala 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:39.120 Harris as a Samoan Malaysian low IQ. This is just 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:44.040 kind of baffling old school racism. Yeah, I honestly didn't 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.480 expect this type of thing to have such a resurgence 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:47.200 the past year. 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:49.520 More esoteric than I expected. 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:51.360 Yeah, it's frankly odd. 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:52.039 Now. 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.400 Tucker also spoke about how the elites are trying to 0:06:55.640 --> 0:07:00.640 replace the population and the culture and customs of this country, 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.560 just clearly invoking the white nationalists a great replacement ideology 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:08.360 that he kind of previously spread on his Fox show in. 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:10.800 A country that's been taken over by a leadership class 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:14.040 that actually despises them and their values and their history 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.520 and their culture and their customs, really hates them to 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:19.960 the point that it's trying to replace them. 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:25.679 Very very clear stuff. And Don Junior invoked very similar rhetoric, 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.640 saying that the government no longer puts Americans first and 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.840 that the Democratic Party would rather quote replace Americans with 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.720 people who will be reliable voters on glob Well, and again, 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:38.520 this is types of stuff that we talked about in 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:43.880 like twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. It's like Laurens Southern YouTube videos. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.640 And like if there's one thing that dims are bad at, 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:48.720 it's getting reliable voters. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:49.200 Yeah. 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.600 Yes, Like this is the type of stuff that was 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:54.800 so that was much more niche. And then you had 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.120 a few like four Chan guys start like doing a 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.120 writing on Tucker's show, and now it's being used at 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:02.480 disappoint the president's rallies. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:03.800 Yeah. 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:06.960 Now, when Trump finally took the stage he mirrored Tucker's 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.680 Kamala Harris IQ comments, saying everyone knows she's a very 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.000 low IQ individual. Like usual, he called the press the 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.520 enemy of the people. Uh huh, But he went on 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:22.120 to describe the true enemy mastermining the fall of America 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:26.320 the quote radical left machine that has taken control of 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:27.520 the Democratic Party. 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.520 It's just this amorphous group of people. 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.719 But they're smart, and they're vicious, and we. 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.240 Have to defeat them. And when I say the enemy 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:42.360 from within, the other side goes crazy, becomes a sound maho. 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:44.520 How can he say, no. 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:46.839 They've done very bad things to this country. They are 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:48.400 indeed the enemy from within. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.360 And I do find it interesting the way he describes 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.240 them as like a morphous Yeah, it's not like a 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.080 distinct sect. It's not like a fups of people. It's 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.199 this like a MorphOS almost like like a like like 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.800 ethereal force that can like inhabit people. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.160 You need that because, that, among other things, allows you 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.360 to refocus the lens on anyone. Yeah, right, Like you 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:15.440 need the opportunity to keep shifting because eventually, if you're 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:19.080 just actually focusing on a real discrete group of human beings, 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.200 you get rid of those people. You throw them in 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.680 prison or whatever, and then you don't have an enemy anymore, 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:25.720 and you always need that. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:27.800 And do you know what we need right. 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:29.840 Now, Robert Products and Services. 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:31.600 Yeah, we do need to go on a quick break, 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.400 and then I'm going to come back to talk about Dluth, Georgia. 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:49.319 So not good, great, all right, we are back. I'm 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:53.560 gonna now turn to a turning point action event on 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.600 October twenty third in Dluth, Georgia, which I actually just 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.920 visited for the first time. I went ice skating in Deluth, Georgia, 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:03.160 and to kind of get a sense of what this town. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.720 It's not even really a suburb of Atlanta, it's it's 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.400 so far north as I was, isis skating there. 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:09.800 I'm pretty sure. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.560 Like a Christian cult showed up and they had all 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:14.640 their members also ice skated, because they were all wearing 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.040 like the same outfits they hold, like very specific like headscarves. 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:20.400 A few a few of like the more like youth 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.760 pastory types, had like you know, like christ As King 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.040 type puddies. But it definitely wasn't like a regular church. 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:27.640 It was. It was more of some kind of like 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:32.240 evangelical like cultish formation based on like the uniform clothing. 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:34.600 So that's Deluth, Georgia. 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:36.360 Yeah. 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.599 Now, Charlie Kirk gave a fifteen minute speech which he 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:45.320 closed with a spiritual appeal, saying, quote, you have a 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.960 biblical obligation to engage in this election and to fight evil. 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:56.040 The Democratic Party supports everything God hates unquote. Kirk then 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.880 called this election a quote unquote spiritual battle and in 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.320 and finally he said, quote, this is a Christian state. 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:07.520 I want to see that continue. So none of this 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:09.840 is like New Right. This is kind of at this 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.280 point bog standard Christian nationalism. But this is a rally 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.040 of about ten thousand people. It's not an official Trump rally. 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.680 It is a turning point action rally that Trump did 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.240 speak at. But I like to hone in once again 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:25.760 on Tucker Carlson's comments. Now, he called this the first 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.679 speech he's ever given at a political rally. Now, both 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.320 me and you saw Tucker speak at the RNC. I 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.000 guess he kind of views the R and C is 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:35.439 a little bit different from like a standard like kind 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.760 of more like a campaign rally type event. But Tucker 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.600 called Trump a triumph of the human spirit, Christ, a 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.400 triumph of the will. You could say, yeah, yes, like, 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.320 what's another word for the human spirit? 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:50.400 Uh huh. 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:53.680 But now I'm gonna play Actually, this is the lunge 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.720 cliff we have just because it's so fascinating and I 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:58.679 have a lot that kind of written on this already. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:00.000 I'm just gonna play this clip. 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.840 There has to be a point at which Dad comes home. 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:19.960 Yeah, that's right. Dad comes home and he's pissed. 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:22.520 Dad is pissed. 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:25.319 He's not vengeful. 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:31.559 He loves his children, disobedient as they may be, he loves. 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.160 Them because there's children. They live in his house. 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.480 But he's very disappointed in their behavior and he's gonna 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:42.000 have to let them know. He's gonna have to get 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:46.040 to your room right now and think about what you did. 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:48.880 And when Dad gets home, you know what he says. 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.520 You've been a bad girl. You've been a bad little girl, 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.319 and you're getting a vigorous spanking right now. And no, 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.080 it's not gonna hurt me more than it hurts you. 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:01.720 No, it's not. I'm not gonna lie. 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.080 That's gonna hurt you a lot more than it hurts me. 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:05.960 And you earned this. 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.559 You're getting a vigorous spanking because you've been a bad girl. 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:17.800 Well, that's just real sick and deranged. I mean you 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:22.600 can tell he really gets off on spanking little girls. 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:28.520 I mean, like beyond like Tucker is like shown depravity here. 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.080 I also just find like the willingness of the audience 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.480 just to eat this stuff up and like really enjoy 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.400 it to like similarly be like both like fascinating and 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.360 like a show of like a certain level of a depravement. 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.720 Well, it's this, it's leaning into what has always been 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.600 the core of like the most militant conservatism, which is 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:55.240 the like strict Christian conservative parents rights people sure be 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.200 like my children are my property, and also the right 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.000 way to parents is like a dictator. 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:05.480 I mean this is like the most like openly Freudian 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.480 display of American fascism that I've ever seen before. 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.520 Oh yeah, oh yeah, It's amazing, this. 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:13.920 Idea of like a harsh father whose love is replaced 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.480 with fearful authority. It's really important that like America is 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.360 framed as a bad girl. There's this like feminizing of 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.920 the masses. Right, America is not like a bad little boy. 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.280 A bad girl is like really important. Carlson's almost invoking 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.560 like an incestuous like domination. Yeah, it's it's quite sick. 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:33.320 And like I had to actually like like look up 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:34.960 stuff on this because I'm like, I know Freud and 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:36.760 a few others have like written about this type of 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.280 thing before, and specifically Adorno has written about this in 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.760 an essay called Freudian Theory and the Pattern of Fascist 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.360 Propaganda that I'd like to read just a few brief 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:46.440 quotes from. 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.600 Oh I love some Adorno, Yes, please. 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:52.600 Quote There is either no mention of love whatsoever between members, 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.120 or it's expressed only in a sublimated and indirect way 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:58.720 through the mediation of some religious image. In the love 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.600 of whom the members unite and who's all embracing love 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.080 they are supposed to imitate in their attitude towards each other. 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.920 It seems significant that in today's society, with its artificially 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:13.160 integrated fascist masses, reference to love is almost completely excluded. 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.480 Hitler shunned the traditional role of the loving father and 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:22.080 replaced it entirely by the negative one of threatening authority unquote. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.600 I'm going to pivot to Freud here, specifically his essay 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.840 on group behavior and how individuals regressed become part of masses. 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.800 He writes about how a leader of a cult can 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:37.240 exploit psychological shortcuts in its followers to embody this like 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:42.040 group ideal that governs their ego as a substitution quote, 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.520 the leader of the group is the dreaded primal Father. 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:50.360 The group still wishes to be governed by unrestricted force. 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.680 It has an extreme passion for authority, It has a 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:58.080 thirst for obedience. The primal Father is the group ideal. 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.560 This is like so displayed what Tucker is doing like 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.920 this is just exactly what it is. I mean, it 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.280 reminds me of the other quote about how people seek 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.280 out salvation in subjugation. And I'll leave just one more 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.520 quote from Adorno here quote. Fascist agitation is centered in 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.200 the idea of the leader, no matter whether he actually 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.040 leads or is only the mandatory of group interests. Because 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.240 only the psychological image of the leader is apt to 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:27.880 reanimate the idea of the all powerful and threatening primal Father. 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.800 The formation of the imagery of an omnipotent and unbridled 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.520 father figure, by far transcending the individual father and therefore 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.880 apt to be enlargened into a group ego, is the 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:43.360 only way to promulgate the passive masochistic attitude to whoms 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.960 one's will has to be surrendered, an attitude required of 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:51.160 the fascist follower the more his political behavior becomes irreconcilable 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.600 with his own rational interests as a private person, as 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:56.920 well as those of the group or class to which 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.680 he actually belongs. The followers reawakened irrationality is therefore quite 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:05.480 rational from the leader's point of view. It necessarily has 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.640 to be a conviction which is not based on perception 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:13.960 and reasoning, but on an erotic tie. I'm sure someone 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.960 more skilled than me could write like a whole dissertation 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.000 just on Tucker's speech here, because like it invokes so 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.320 many of these ideas and like without trying to this 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.480 is always like subconscious on their part, Like they're pulling 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.960 on these things like specifically, like like the passive masochistic attitude. 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.720 It's like their submission to Trump is like this deep 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:36.200 masochistic urge. 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.280 There's another thing in there that I think is important, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.520 especially because I'm hearing a lot of people talking about like, well, 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.560 once Trump pushes through his tariffs or does this or 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.600 does that, the horrible negative consequences of this will like 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:53.120 absolutely destroy the GOP right. That'll finally bring them down 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.359 to me let them, you know, no, And one of 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.600 the things that Dorino says there is that, like the 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.159 leader doesn't even need to be bro and that's an 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:05.959 underdiscussed aspect of psychology and fascist states. One of the 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.639 one of the phenomenons within Nazi Germany was, you know, 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:14.040 there were a number of Nazi policies, Hitler's policies that 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:18.159 had serious negative effects on people in Germany. And one 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.320 of the most common phrases that you would hear from 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.119 them was if only Hitler knew, right, you know, you 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.560 usually deployed when like you were dealing with a government 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.680 agency that was headed by just like an absolute criminal 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.239 that you know, Hitler had appointed that like, oh, well, 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.000 Hitler doesn't know that the Gestapo are doing this, right, 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.040 you know, he would stop this, he'd put a stop 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.040 to this if he knew, he wouldn't let this happen. 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.560 Right, That's what That's what Trump's believers. 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.560 I don't know if that's what the American people writ 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.639 large may never buy into Trump the way that the 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:51.680 Germans bought into Hitler, but Trump's supporters are certainly already there. 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.960 And this is something that Tucker saw in the audience 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.600 when he started on this rant, he started repeating certain 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.520 phrases because it got such a good reaction from the crowd. Like, 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:05.080 this wasn't like planned, it was. It was him reading 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.960 the crowd and realizing, oh, they really like this. I'm 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.520 going to keep doing it, and specifically this. This is 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.080 also how he closed his speech. And I don't believe 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.399 this was this was planned. I believe this is because 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.119 of the reaction that the crowd had previously. I'm going 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:19.800 to play the very end of his speech where he 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.200 basically endorses like a coup. If Harris actually wins. 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.280 If they do all of that, they need to lose. 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:28.440 And at the end of all of it, when they 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.600 tell you they've won, no, you can look them straight 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:34.159 in the face and say, I'm sorry. 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:36.560 Dad's home and he's pissed. 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:38.280 Thank you. 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:42.919 They love it. 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.400 Yeah, of course, of course, all they have ever wanted 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:51.359 is to be forced to be right, you know, and 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.640 to the extent that reality disagrees with their beliefs, which 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:59.679 it usually does, to be able to beat reality into place, 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:05.359 and at least continue to trick themselves until they die, right, Like, 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:09.040 that's all the fascists, I know, you know, the older people, 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.439 many of whom raised me. That's what it really was 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.040 about for them was never having to acknowledge the mistakes 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.840 that they had made, the things that they had supported 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.160 that didn't work out. Like it was a rage at 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.560 the people who insisted on pointing out, Hey, you said 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.399 this was going to happen, and the opposite happened. So 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:31.080 that promise of like even if they win, Dad's going 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:36.520 to come home and beat them into submission is deeply attractive. 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.359 I mean, and even if it hurts your own like 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:43.159 self interests, your only class interests, right, And it's like 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.000 replacing all of the anguish you have as like an 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:50.040 individual person and like replacing your own ego with the 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.640 embodiment of this group ideal that is just someone else. 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:54.880 Like this is why so many people have like dedicated 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:56.520 their lives to Trump. Like you look at all these 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.480 like like boomers and even some like gen X people 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:02.679 at these Trump rallies who like Trump has like become 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:07.440 like their personality. He's fully occupied their life. And yeah, 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:09.600 like that's that's similar into the way that like occult 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.920 leader has like how Freud wrote about it. Freud wrote 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.800 all that stuff like in the nineteen twenties before before, 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:17.920 like Hitler really rose to power, but he could like 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.960 sense what was like coming in Germany. He could he 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:23.800 could feel it. Yeah, And what I'm gonna feel right 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.600 now is the products and services that support this podcast. 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:38.120 Huzzah, all right. 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:38.800 We are back. 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:43.359 I like to close by talking about Aurora, Colorado. 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:44.560 Now. 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.960 A tactic the Trump campaign consistently used this past year 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:51.399 is to hone in on particular small communities as being 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:56.119 taken over by immigrants who they would call like criminal migrants. 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.240 The best known example of this is what happened in Springfield, Ohio, 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:03.919 but this also happened in the Denver suburb Aurora, Colorado, 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:07.199 after a video went viral showing men walking through an 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:11.399 apartment complex holding firearms. A false claim then spread that 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.879 a Venezuelan gang was forcibly taking over entire buildings in 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.560 this city. At a Trump rally in Aurora on October eleventh, 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:23.920 massive banners on both sides of the stage read Deport 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:29.199 illegals now and end Migrant crime. On either side of 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:32.760 the podium, there were large mugshots of Latino men with 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:39.680 text that reads occupied America. Steven Miller, now Chief Advisor 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:43.199 for Immigration Policy, takes the stage and says that the 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:47.360 patriots gathered at this event can quote end the invasion 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:51.480 and end the occupation by voting for Trump. 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.440 Look at all these photos around me. Are these the 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:58.439 kids you grew up with? Are these the neighbors you 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.600 were raised with? Are these the neighbors that you want 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:07.800 in your city? No, these are the criminal migrants the 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:10.480 Kamala Harris brought into your community. 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:13.080 Again, it's all it's all pretty brazen stuff. 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:13.600 Yep. 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.200 Yeah, I mean we call that brazen, but like that's 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:20.320 just mainstream now. Yes, Like the fight to look at 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:24.719 migrants as human beings and have any kind of sane justice, 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:28.560 you know, for undocumented migrants in this country has has 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:30.000 been completely botched. 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.600 There's something about like the suburban neighborhood idea that is 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.640 more like disturbing to me, Like like pointing to actual 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.680 pictures of people being Are these the kids you grew 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:40.080 up with? 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:40.640 Yep? 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.080 And like the fight to like preserve this nostalgic idea 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:47.480 of like your childhood neighborhood, it's just so dark to 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:52.880 me now. Invoking great replacement framing, Miller says that Kamala 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:56.600 Harris was bringing these immigrants into your communities and that 0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.159 they are now taking over America. 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:04.240 We don't need in this country homeless migrants, criminal migrants. 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:08.120 We don't need migrants consuming and depleting our public resources, 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:12.439 overwhelming our public schools, overwhelming our hospital, taking over our 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:17.679 apartment buildings, and yes, murdering innocent Americans. You have a 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:20.280 right to love the community you grew up in. You 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:22.920 have a right to love your neighbors as they are. 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:26.399 You have a right to want a country that is 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:31.040 of by and for Americans and only Americans. 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:37.080 Again with that, like, you have a right to love 0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:40.399 the community you grew up in. And then of course 0:24:40.600 --> 0:24:45.320 like Americans for Americans. And Miller later closed his speech 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:49.640 by yelling, America will be reclaimed for Americans. 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:51.680 Oh gosh, yep. 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:56.199 I mean, look, these people suffered no consequences for what 0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:58.640 they did the last time, so they're going to keep 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:01.480 pushing further. It's done nothing but work for them. No 0:25:01.520 --> 0:25:04.320 one has ever taught them any lesson that, like, hey, 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:06.359 you've gone too far and now there are going to 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:09.399 be negative consequences. That hasn't happened. So yeah, they're just 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:11.840 going to keep getting more and more masked off. This 0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:14.880 is where they've wanted to be a miller, certainly from 0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:15.720 the beginning, and. 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:18.920 They've used these past four years as prep work to 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:22.280 build them to this point. And of course none of 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:24.600 what they're saying is like real in terms of like 0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:28.480 you know, buildings being taken over the famously pro Harris 0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:32.560 liberal extremist group. The Aurora Police Department have continued to 0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:34.840 clarify that no apartment buildings have been taken over by 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:38.520 any gangs, nor have tenants been paying gang members rent money. 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:41.160 According to the police, none of the armed men seen 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:43.600 in that viral video, who have all been since identified 0:25:43.640 --> 0:25:46.679 or arrested, none of them have any ties to Venezuelan 0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:51.280 gangs or organized crime. What happened was slumlords spread a 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:54.400 false story about their apartment complex being taken over by 0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:56.600 a gang as a way to get out of doing 0:25:56.640 --> 0:25:59.800 repairs on the property, saying it was too dangerous to 0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:00.840 to the premises. 0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:01.400 Jesus. 0:26:01.440 --> 0:26:03.919 It was all like a fucking scam by slum lords 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:06.159 so that they wouldn't have to fix their own apartment building. 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:09.880 Denver seven found code enforcement and inspection records dating back 0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:13.560 to twenty twenty that show numerous violations prior to the 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:17.320 influx of Venezuelan immigrants in the Denver metro area. The 0:26:17.400 --> 0:26:20.560 complex is now under new care, but a similar false 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:23.440 tale of an apartment building in Chicago being taken over 0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:26.240 by immigrant gangs went viral in September due to the 0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:29.840 efforts of libs of TikTok and Elon Musk, with libs 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:33.000 of TikTok saying, quote, first they did this in Aurora, Colorado, 0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:37.200 and now Chicago, which city will be next? This invasion 0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:41.680 happened on Kamala's watch unquote. The last thing I will 0:26:41.680 --> 0:26:45.320 mention here is all of the blood comments that Trump 0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:48.159 has been making the past year. In intervery last year, 0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:51.760 Trump said that immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country. 0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:54.680 It's so bad, and people are coming in with disease, 0:26:54.800 --> 0:26:56.840 people are coming in with every possible thing that you 0:26:56.920 --> 0:27:01.879 could have unquote. This clearly invoked like blood framing used 0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:06.399 by Hitler and Nazis, and like eugenics in general, and 0:27:06.440 --> 0:27:08.600 this is rhetoric that he's continuing to use for the present. 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:11.280 In an interview last month, Trump so that immigrants are 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:15.400 naturally murderers because quote it's in their genes. We've got 0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:18.439 a lot of bad genes in our country right now. 0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:21.840 I mean a lot of what this comes down to 0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:24.879 is that after World War Two, we really needed to 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:28.200 execute a lot more people, you know, like you could 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:31.240 have quashed the eugenics movement. We needed to go after 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:32.960 a lot of people in the US. There were a 0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:38.880 lot of American fascists involved in eugenics, and after Treblinka 0:27:38.920 --> 0:27:41.639 and Auschwitz, we really just should have cleaned house, and 0:27:42.400 --> 0:27:45.480 instead we let all of these people get into think tanks. 0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:48.440 I'm going to close with a quote from The Atlantic 0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:51.280 here quote. When Trump was swaying to music at a 0:27:51.320 --> 0:27:54.600 surreal rally, he did so in front of a huge slogan, 0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:59.320 Trump was right about everything. This is the language borrow 0:27:59.400 --> 0:28:02.600 directly from Mussolini, the Italian fascist. Soon after the rally, 0:28:02.640 --> 0:28:05.919 the scholar Ruth ben Gate posted a photograph of a 0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:10.760 building in Mussolini's Italy displaying the slogan Mussolini is always right. 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:12.679 Uh huh. 0:28:12.720 --> 0:28:15.400 And that reminded me of what you said earlier about 0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:17.360 how these people just always wanted to be right. 0:28:18.000 --> 0:28:21.000 Yeah, yeah, that's that's the that's the core of it. 0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:24.240 And similarly, like people can surrender their own individual ego 0:28:24.680 --> 0:28:27.240 and substitute it with this image of Trump right, Trump 0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:28.520 was right about everything. 0:28:28.840 --> 0:28:29.080 Yep. 0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:32.000 Anyway, this is this is kind of what I wanted 0:28:32.000 --> 0:28:34.600 to put together, just focusing on on all of these things, 0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:37.280 because I mean, as much as you know, foreign policy 0:28:37.280 --> 0:28:40.680 in America is always kind of fucked. Domestic policy, I think, 0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:43.720 does often get changed based on who is in office, 0:28:43.760 --> 0:28:45.200 and this is what we're going to be dealing with 0:28:45.360 --> 0:28:48.400 these four years, especially with Miller taking a larger and 0:28:48.480 --> 0:28:49.960 larger role inside the White House. 0:28:50.320 --> 0:28:52.680 We sure are, So everybody buckle up. 0:29:11.400 --> 0:29:14.400 Hello and welcome to AKAP and Here I am Andrew Sage. 0:29:14.480 --> 0:29:18.880 I run andrewsm Ova on YouTube. I'm joined by the 0:29:18.920 --> 0:29:19.720 one and. 0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:21.680 Only Garrison Davis. Hello. 0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:25.000 Hello, Hello, you don't sound p secuarly festive. 0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:27.800 You know, it's a it's been a long week. This 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:31.680 is the last workday of election week when we're recording this. 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.800 I just returned from my cabin in the woods, which 0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:38.720 I which I got to kind of watch the election unfold. 0:29:39.200 --> 0:29:41.760 So now I am back in the real world, not 0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:44.640 just hiding up in the mountains of Georgia. So it 0:29:44.720 --> 0:29:48.080 feels slightly worse, but we we carry on. 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:52.080 As you mentioned a cabin in the woods, it actually 0:29:52.080 --> 0:29:56.320 reminds me of this movie that came out to Netflix 0:29:56.480 --> 0:29:58.720 a little while ago. If you've seen it, Leave the World. 0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:00.520 Behind, Yes, I I've seen that. 0:30:01.000 --> 0:30:03.600 Yes, it's it's pretty after You're in a cabin and 0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:04.560 all this was going on. 0:30:05.640 --> 0:30:09.600 Yes, Yes, we actually talked about that movie earlier on 0:30:09.640 --> 0:30:13.680 this on this show and some conspiracy theories around it. 0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:16.040 Yeah, oh, the Obama connection. 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:17.560 That's right, that's right. 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:20.280 You understand, you're already receiving the messages. 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:21.040 You already know. 0:30:22.760 --> 0:30:25.480 Exactly. But we're not focused on. 0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:28.640 The US for this episode, thank goodness. 0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:31.520 Instead, we're going to be going back into the past 0:30:32.120 --> 0:30:35.200 and the present as well, because the struggle really doesn't end, 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:39.120 and taking a look at the struggle of the Mapuche 0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:43.720 in Chile and Argentina. I'd actually mentioned them in my 0:30:43.800 --> 0:30:47.200 exploration of Latin American anarchisms that you know, they would 0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:51.240 need their own episode. So here we are taking a 0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:54.160 look at everything that they've been up to. And it's 0:30:54.200 --> 0:30:57.800 really thanks to the work of Fello anarchists m good 0:30:57.800 --> 0:31:00.960 Hawk and John Sevreno and there that I've been able 0:31:01.000 --> 0:31:07.560 to put together this illucidation of indigenous anarchist history. So 0:31:07.720 --> 0:31:11.680 the lands that now bear the titles of Chile and 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:16.640 Argentina have long held the Mapuche people long before borders 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:20.440 were drawn, long before the world learned to cage the wild. 0:31:21.040 --> 0:31:25.120 The land itself is considered while mapoo, and it's deeply 0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:29.480 entwined with the identity of the Mapuche people. While poo 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:33.000 is of course not just a geographical term, is also 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:36.760 a spiritual one. It's a tapestry of their histories and 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:40.280 their dreams, and also their view of the world through 0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:44.160 a lens of reciprocity, because the Uche do acknowledge their 0:31:44.240 --> 0:31:48.200 kinship with the land, the rivers, the mountains, and that 0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:53.000 worldview that they hold and have traditionally held. Rather champions 0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:56.160 balance and harmony and respect for all forms of life, 0:31:56.840 --> 0:32:01.200 which is what has been fuel in their ongoing against occupation. 0:32:01.920 --> 0:32:05.120 So in a sense, the Mapuche struggle echoes an anarchist 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:08.680 ethos of autonomy and mutual aid. But I wouldn't cau 0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:11.520 as far as to call them anarchists, you know, I mean, 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:15.200 they have a very specific cultural and historical and spiritual 0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:19.600 context that is distinct from anarchists. Thought. Despite these similarities 0:32:19.640 --> 0:32:22.360 and overlaps in there so s, they will be exploring 0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:25.760 the history, people, and struggles of all Mapou that have 0:32:25.880 --> 0:32:31.560 shaped the Mapuche experience now. Ancient archaeological finds from tools 0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:34.400 to pottery have suggested that the Mapuche may have settled 0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:37.600 in present day southern Chile and Argentina as far back 0:32:37.680 --> 0:32:40.760 twenty five hundred to three thousand years ago. Genetic and 0:32:40.800 --> 0:32:44.560 linguistic research connects the Mapuche lineage to other indigenous groups 0:32:44.600 --> 0:32:48.600 across the Andes, meaning that their ancestors may have migrated 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:52.240 down the western spin of South America in waves, adapt 0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:56.760 into the rainforests, coastlines, and valleys of what's now one Mapu. 0:32:57.840 --> 0:33:03.080 Historically and currently, the Mapuch spoken Mapudungun, and the language 0:33:03.120 --> 0:33:07.080 itself carries aspects of their cultural identity, others to be expected. 0:33:07.920 --> 0:33:11.720 Mapudungun is a polysynthetic language, meaning its words can be 0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:16.400 formed by combining smaller parts to reflect complex ideas. Mapuche 0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:22.160 itself combines Mapu meaning land and Chay meaning people. Sapuch 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:25.760 lived on the border of the Incan Empire, meaning that 0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:30.320 they were in contact with centralized state organizations and hierarchical societies. 0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:33.960 I would have chosen to differentiate themselves and the societies 0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:37.360 from these status peoples, So how do they do so exactly? 0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:40.840 The Puschi way of life would have revolved around, as 0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:44.280 I said, a deep respective for kinship, communal responsibility, and 0:33:44.320 --> 0:33:47.920 spiritual stewardship of the land. The society itself was based 0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:52.680 around the loaf or family based communal unit, each love 0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:57.160 holding shared responsibility over a specific territory, ensuring the one's 0:33:57.200 --> 0:34:00.720 personal wealth doesn't override the interest and well being of 0:34:00.760 --> 0:34:03.600 the environment in the community. The love wasn't just limited 0:34:03.640 --> 0:34:07.200 to the people of that family based community unit, it 0:34:07.360 --> 0:34:14.520 also incorporated the ecosystem. That unit, incombust and occupied nature 0:34:14.719 --> 0:34:19.400 was in a sense part of the family. Rivers, mountains, forests, 0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:22.920 and other animals were treated as living relatives with the 0:34:22.960 --> 0:34:27.160 spirit and agency that desiled respect. In the Mapuche world view, 0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:31.600 all beings and elements possess nuen, the life force, and 0:34:31.640 --> 0:34:34.800 so they have to be respected. And that police system 0:34:34.800 --> 0:34:38.320 also leads the mapootated practice a sustainable use of resources 0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:42.319 and intergenerational land care. And it also compels there as 0:34:42.320 --> 0:34:48.279 I said, resistance to colonial resource extraction, deforestation, and industrial expansion. 0:34:48.880 --> 0:34:53.880 In Mapuchev's spirituality, Juanumapu or The land of the ancestors 0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:57.040 refers to the spiritual realm connected to the physical world. 0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:01.520 They've traditionally believed that the spirits of past generations inhabit 0:35:01.680 --> 0:35:07.320 this realm, offering guidance and protection the matches or spiritual leaders, 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:10.520 so as the bridges between these worlds. So they're supposed 0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:13.759 to do things that conduct ceremonies, heal the sick, and 0:35:13.920 --> 0:35:18.040 connect with the ancestral spirits. They've stilled as the custodians 0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:21.359 in a sense of spiritual knowledge and medicine, and that 0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:24.960 makes them an essential component in each love. The socio 0:35:24.960 --> 0:35:28.160 political structure of the Mapuche has been a confederation of 0:35:28.239 --> 0:35:31.920 love groups known as the Alaraway system, where the different 0:35:31.960 --> 0:35:35.560 loves would come together to make communal decisions and joint actions, 0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:39.239 particularly in times of conflict or threat. Each love will 0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:43.080 be represented in these confederations by alonco, who would be 0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:47.440 bringing their communities voice and perspective to regional councils without 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:52.560 necessarily exercise and centralized authority. The decisions these councils are 0:35:52.600 --> 0:35:59.480 based on consensus traditionally and cooperation compromise, honoring the collective 0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:02.960 will as much as possible, rather than imposing will from above, 0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:07.080 and contrary to popular belief, this lack of centralization has 0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:11.359 actually made them more resilient, not more fragile. Rather than 0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:15.200 beckering and fighting and split in and splintering constantly than 0:36:15.239 --> 0:36:20.960 Pouch have historically united and together resisted multiple attempts at subjugation. 0:36:21.800 --> 0:36:24.880 So they centralized alliances have empowered them to respond flexibly 0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:28.880 and quickly to the ever changing landscape of the threats 0:36:28.880 --> 0:36:31.960 that they're facing, and this resistance can use to this day. 0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:35.839 But let me not skip ahead. The Spanish fullst made 0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:38.800 their way to Mapouche territory in the mid fifteen hundreds, 0:36:38.880 --> 0:36:41.520 initially confident that they could conquer the area with the 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:44.320 same ease they had subdued the InCor Empire to the north. 0:36:44.719 --> 0:36:49.200 But the Mapuche were not easily intimidated. Early encounters quickly 0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:51.880 to into conflict, and the Spanish found themselves up against 0:36:51.960 --> 0:36:57.120 a serious resistance movement. From the start, the Spanish had 0:36:57.200 --> 0:37:02.000 underestimated the Impucha's ability to adapt when the conquistadors introduced 0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:07.000 horses and new weaponry. Thelpuch observed and learned quickly, incorporating 0:37:07.040 --> 0:37:10.719 captured horses and arms into their own defense strategies. Rather 0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:13.959 than a simple series of skirmishes, This struggle would become 0:37:13.960 --> 0:37:18.120 a prolonged confrontation, one of the longest and most determined 0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:23.680 resistances to colonization throughout the Americas. This was Lagira Tirauco 0:37:24.080 --> 0:37:27.360 or the Arako War, known for over one hundred years 0:37:27.400 --> 0:37:32.600 of protracted, brutal conflicts maintained by guerrilla warfare, and there 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:36.600 would be no definitive battle or grand conclusion to this war. 0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:42.600 Thelpuch recognized that they were facing vast resources. They knew 0:37:42.640 --> 0:37:47.040 they had to find ways to level that playing field, 0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:50.080 and so, using their familiarity with the forests, rivers and 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:54.680 mountains of Albapo, they ambushed, evaded, and outflanked Spanish troops, 0:37:55.000 --> 0:37:58.799 cut off supply lines, and employed tactics that frustrated and 0:37:58.960 --> 0:38:03.640 exhausted their laws and equipped opponents. The Lapuche were fighting 0:38:03.760 --> 0:38:08.040 on two fronts, defending their territories from physical invasion and 0:38:08.080 --> 0:38:12.839 preserving their cultural practices from Spanish influence. Those Mupuch are 0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:17.480 traditionally egalitarian. They did elect toki or war years during 0:38:17.560 --> 0:38:20.879 times of conflict. These figures were limited to their role 0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:24.640 in coordinating forces during these conflicts and had no other 0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:27.920 political power to yield above others. One of the more 0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:31.080 notable of these toki was a man named Lautaro. He 0:38:31.160 --> 0:38:33.239 was a young Mapuche who had been captured by the 0:38:33.239 --> 0:38:35.680 Spanish as a teenager and had worked for some time 0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:38.960 as a stable boy for chief conquistado and governor of Gilet, 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:43.719 Pedro de Valgivia. While working as a stable boy, Lautaro 0:38:44.040 --> 0:38:47.920 managed to secretly observe many of the tactics the Spanish employed. 0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:51.319 He gained intimate knowledge of what made them tick in 0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:55.360 a sense, and eventually escaped captivity and brought this knowledge 0:38:55.400 --> 0:38:58.759 back to his people, transforming a Puchi resistance by effectively 0:38:58.840 --> 0:39:03.160 using captured horses and new formations to confront the Spanish 0:39:03.200 --> 0:39:07.920 on ivan ground. Lautaux was a brilliant military strategist and 0:39:07.920 --> 0:39:11.160 by all accounts, a charismatic young man that inspired his 0:39:11.239 --> 0:39:15.320 people through several major victories, including defeating a large Spanish 0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:17.919 force at the Battle of Tucapel in fifteen fifty three, 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:21.799 which is a confrontation that killed his former master and 0:39:22.080 --> 0:39:25.640 a good bit of Spanish morale. Unfortunately, the outbreak of 0:39:25.680 --> 0:39:29.040 a typhus plague, a drought, and a famine slowed the 0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:31.800 Mapuchier advance to expel the Spanish as they had to 0:39:31.840 --> 0:39:34.839 spend some time recovering, but Lautero did try to push 0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:37.440 a band of Apoucha as far north as Santiago, Chile 0:39:37.760 --> 0:39:41.840 to liberate the country from Spanish rule. Unfortunately, before he 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:45.120 could even turn thirty, he was killed in an ambush, 0:39:45.600 --> 0:39:48.359 and well his spirit continues to live on as a 0:39:48.360 --> 0:39:52.640 symbol of Ampuche resilience. As the war evolved, they had 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:57.400 cycles of conflict interspersed with uneasy pieces Spanish settlements. The 0:39:57.440 --> 0:40:01.440 Mapuche frontier became isolated, vulnerable outpost subject to sudden raids, 0:40:01.840 --> 0:40:04.200 so in an attempt to hold the territory, the Spanish 0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:07.120 had to divert large amount of their resources to maintain 0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:11.040 a military presence, which was a very costly strategy that 0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:14.879 didn't end up being sustainable long term. So finally, after 0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:18.200 decades of failed attempts to subdue the Mapucha by force, 0:40:18.719 --> 0:40:21.920 the Spanish had to adopt a different approach. Resulted in 0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:24.400 a series of peace treaties which will be unheard of 0:40:24.520 --> 0:40:27.600 in the rest of Clonal Latin America. Among these was 0:40:27.600 --> 0:40:31.880 the Parliament of Killin in sixteen forty one, which established 0:40:31.920 --> 0:40:36.239 a formal boundary between Spanish controlled Chile and the autonomous 0:40:36.239 --> 0:40:40.680 Mapuche territories, granted the mapucha I legal recognition as an 0:40:40.760 --> 0:40:45.719 independent people with territorial rights. This is ritually unheard of 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:48.239 across the rest of the Americas, and that's to tell 0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:51.400 you how powerful their resistance was at the time. The 0:40:51.440 --> 0:40:55.239 Spanish crown recognized Mapuche control over lands south of the 0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:59.880 Bbio River and agreed to regular negotiations. And although this 0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:04.440 agreement was tenuous and at times violated, it did also 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:07.880 mark an era of semi autonomy for the Mapuche, allowing 0:41:07.880 --> 0:41:11.239 them to maintain their land, language and traditions in the 0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:15.319 face of surrounding clunal expansion. The fact that they could 0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:17.959 even secure legal recognition of their autonomy from a state 0:41:18.040 --> 0:41:20.400 power as stubborn as a Spanish in a time like 0:41:20.440 --> 0:41:25.719 the seventeenth century, it's just remarkable. But unfortunately, as you 0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:29.760 could probably predict that recognition of the autonomy would not last. 0:41:39.320 --> 0:41:43.480 In the eighteen hundreds, Chile and Argentina emerged as independent 0:41:43.520 --> 0:41:47.680 republics following Spanish clunial rule, each driven by an appetite 0:41:47.680 --> 0:41:51.880 for territorial expansion and a nationalist vision. The excluded indigenous 0:41:51.920 --> 0:41:57.160 autonomy with new ambitions to civilize and consolidate the nations. 0:41:57.640 --> 0:42:00.640 Chilean and Argentine leaders saw them Mapouche held lands as 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:05.520 resources to be exploited. Both governments are justified their encroachment 0:42:05.600 --> 0:42:09.920 on Morepouche land under the guise of national progress. To them, 0:42:10.120 --> 0:42:13.640 these indigenous lands were free real estate to be conquered 0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:17.280 and improved, not sovereign regions held by an indigenous population. 0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:19.840 They saw way of life as a barrier as the 0:42:19.920 --> 0:42:23.600 economic development to your place with European style land holdings 0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:28.880 set the colonies and extractive industries under new management. They 0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:31.480 would not respect the sixteen forty one Parliament kill in 0:42:32.040 --> 0:42:34.840 as far as they were concerned. They didn't sign that agreement, 0:42:35.120 --> 0:42:38.319 and they would never sign an agreement with savages. 0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:41.520 I mean, yeah, we also saw that sort of thing 0:42:41.800 --> 0:42:45.400 throughout the Americas, where you would have these like alleged 0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:48.040 trities that then either under future rule or even sometimes 0:42:48.120 --> 0:42:51.799 under the exact same rule, would later just be completely disregarded. 0:42:51.880 --> 0:42:54.160 Yeah, you didn't sign it with me, you know. 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:57.760 It's like a common colonial tactic to buy time. 0:42:57.560 --> 0:43:01.840 As well exactly established and sure buery resources for a 0:43:01.920 --> 0:43:04.400 later attack. Yeah, and I could just say, well, I 0:43:04.400 --> 0:43:07.320 didn't sign that, you know, somebody else signed it, so 0:43:07.360 --> 0:43:09.399 I don't have to be behold onto it pretty much, 0:43:10.880 --> 0:43:14.359 and so Chileo launched their campaign to annexed Mapuche land, 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:19.799 known as the Pacification of Aracanya, initiated in the eighteen sixties. 0:43:20.920 --> 0:43:25.799 Some have argued that this attempted annexation was triggered by 0:43:25.840 --> 0:43:28.360 the events surrounding the wreck of Hooven Danielle at the 0:43:28.400 --> 0:43:31.880 coast of Hrakania in eighteen forty nine, where erecked Chilean 0:43:31.960 --> 0:43:36.120 navy vessel was allegedly looted and its survivors allegedly attacked 0:43:36.440 --> 0:43:40.560 on Apoucha territory by members of Apouche society, despite the 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:43.600 Mapuche arguing there had been no survivors, and despite them 0:43:43.719 --> 0:43:45.960 handing over some of the accused of lutin to be 0:43:46.040 --> 0:43:48.920 tried by Chilean authorities, even retilling in so of what 0:43:49.040 --> 0:43:51.759 was allegedly looted. The perception of the incident as a 0:43:51.800 --> 0:43:55.760 brutal loot and rape by the Mapuche fueled anti Mapouche 0:43:55.920 --> 0:44:01.800 sentiment within Chilean society. Although President Manualnais of Chile dismissed 0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:04.359 the opposition's calls for a punitive expedition at the time. 0:44:04.840 --> 0:44:07.320 The conquest would eventually come to pass, begetting in eighteen 0:44:07.360 --> 0:44:10.080 sixty one. If you dig into this story, by the way, 0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:12.560 you come to find out that a lot of the 0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:17.120 Loutenant and Mapouche were accused of was actually members of 0:44:17.160 --> 0:44:22.759 Chilean society and bazilin the resources from the wreck and 0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:25.640 then play into office if the Mapuche were wholly responsible 0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:28.640 for the loss of the resources. Some of the same 0:44:28.680 --> 0:44:32.160 people who are accusing the Wapouchier looters of stealing all 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:34.719 the all the loot from the ship, many of them 0:44:34.760 --> 0:44:38.200 had received some of that loot from the Mahuche themselves. 0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:41.440 Thempuche were trying to return the loot and they decided 0:44:41.440 --> 0:44:44.280 to keep it for themselves instead of you know, retaining 0:44:44.320 --> 0:44:47.400 it's the Chilean government. So it's like the whole trial 0:44:47.600 --> 0:44:49.239 was bunked. There was a whole bunch of corruption and 0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:51.600 it was a real master And although the president did 0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:54.160 you know, dismiss the attempts to attack at the time, 0:44:54.640 --> 0:44:57.240 like I said, it would come to pass. The campaign 0:44:57.400 --> 0:45:01.560 was justified as every government does by necessity. You know, 0:45:01.760 --> 0:45:07.600 the reality however, was a brutal invasion ended up Upuch communities, 0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:12.000 displacing thousands, absorbing their lands into the Chilean state. 0:45:12.840 --> 0:45:17.520 This whole strategy also just reflects this just general dehumanization. 0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:19.480 I mean, even the stuff with like the treaties and 0:45:19.560 --> 0:45:22.520 just like the going back on the treaties, denial of 0:45:22.560 --> 0:45:25.600 the legitimacy of treaties, that tactic would not be used 0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:28.960 the same way against like other colonial nations. And then 0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:33.520 every subsequent development and every subsequent incursion onto land, all 0:45:33.560 --> 0:45:35.520 all of it is just based on this like underlying 0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:39.840 level of dehumanization that just sees land as resources and 0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:43.000 the people there as like acceptable casualties or just fierce 0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:46.200 obstacles to overcome in conquest of those lands. 0:45:46.480 --> 0:45:53.200 Exactly, and obstacles they were because Chile knew where they 0:45:53.239 --> 0:45:55.520 wanted to reach in terms of what they saw as 0:45:55.680 --> 0:46:00.160 their right full borders and were literally a wedge an 0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:03.839 obstacle between them and region where they wanted to reach. 0:46:03.840 --> 0:46:06.360 At the tip of South America. It was almost like 0:46:06.360 --> 0:46:08.759 a race between Argentina and child had to see who 0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:13.360 could reach the edge and claim it first, and THEUCH 0:46:13.520 --> 0:46:18.000 will something that was keeping them from doing that, and Additionally, 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:22.200 Tapouch would not have been granted the same legitimacy of 0:46:22.280 --> 0:46:26.120 a claim as Argentina. You know, Chile and Argentina would 0:46:26.120 --> 0:46:28.960 eventually comes in agreement about where their border would lie, 0:46:29.640 --> 0:46:33.239 and their respected that agreement. Same couldn't be said for 0:46:33.320 --> 0:46:34.880 them Puch. And of course there were a lot of 0:46:34.880 --> 0:46:39.440 border disagreements of course in South America following the you know, 0:46:39.680 --> 0:46:44.680 evacuation of the Spanish, but of course those are treated 0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:50.319 on equal foot in the natives are different matter. So 0:46:50.440 --> 0:46:55.360 Chilean forces would corner advance into Aracania forcibly, removed thousands 0:46:55.360 --> 0:46:59.080 of families from the ancestral territories and subject those that 0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:02.440 remade into the authority to the Chilean government. The traditional 0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:06.440 cumin land holdings have remained were fragmented and redistributed, often 0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:10.680 to Chilean settlers and the government's imposed European style laws, 0:47:11.080 --> 0:47:14.480 education and religion to attempt to assimilate the Mapuche and 0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:18.560 suppress the identity. Military outposts and settlements also established in 0:47:18.560 --> 0:47:22.000 the newly annexed land, fastily facing the region under martial 0:47:22.080 --> 0:47:24.960 law and making it difficult from Pucci communities to resist 0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:30.040 openly replace the words Chilean government with Israeli government, and 0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:33.920 Mapuche with Palestinian And that's just to tell you how 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:42.200 antiquated the current tactics of colonization are. Very little has changed. 0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:44.760 No, That's exactly what I've been thinking about. 0:47:45.080 --> 0:47:48.680 Yeah, I mean, a lot of the former major coal 0:47:48.760 --> 0:47:53.359 powers have found more subtle means of continuing their exploitation 0:47:53.520 --> 0:47:57.200 and subjugation of people around the world. So it's very 0:47:57.280 --> 0:48:01.640 rare to see something so open and flagrant. You know, 0:48:01.760 --> 0:48:04.560 It's something that you expect to see in historical accounts 0:48:04.560 --> 0:48:09.080 such as this of landhole ends being chopped up and 0:48:09.200 --> 0:48:14.560 give unto settlers, and laws and education and being imposed 0:48:14.640 --> 0:48:18.200 and to a native population to suppress and to assimilate 0:48:18.239 --> 0:48:21.200 the I dentity. You know, military outpost being established on 0:48:21.280 --> 0:48:25.480 New Leanix Land, Marcia law being established for the native inhabitants, 0:48:26.000 --> 0:48:29.279 all those things. Hear about it, and pushing of the 0:48:29.280 --> 0:48:32.680 American frontier, and you hear about it and throughout South 0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:36.759 America and Africa's cooling history. You don't really tend to 0:48:36.800 --> 0:48:40.920 think about that here and now it's happening in four. 0:48:40.760 --> 0:48:44.560 K No, Like, that's exactly what I was thinking about 0:48:44.880 --> 0:48:47.279 as you've been going through all this like how it 0:48:47.400 --> 0:48:50.640 just sounds exactly the same as what Israel is currently doing. 0:48:51.160 --> 0:48:54.520 And I think why people latch on to like Israel 0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:57.640 specifically so much is because of how like out of 0:48:57.719 --> 0:49:00.759 time their tactics of colonial expansion and feel and like 0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:03.520 similarly like it. It's just built on this base level 0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:06.840 of dehumanization exactly that a whole bunch of other like 0:49:06.920 --> 0:49:09.680 imperial powers kind of try to like hide or like 0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:12.839 mask a little bit, and with Israels just so mask off. 0:49:13.400 --> 0:49:15.400 So I think about all that time they were like 0:49:15.880 --> 0:49:18.760 a century late pretty much. Yeah, if they had starts 0:49:18.800 --> 0:49:21.080 in this process like a sentry Elia, they would have 0:49:21.120 --> 0:49:22.960 actually probably have gotten away with it. 0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:26.200 Unfortunately, well and they still might get away with it 0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:28.439 now to some degree. And that's like that is true. 0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:30.600 That's that's kind of the super that's the super frightening 0:49:30.640 --> 0:49:33.920 thought is that even though it is this outdated like style, 0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:37.040 what if it like still works and if and if 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:40.160 it's proven to still work in Palestine, where like where 0:49:40.160 --> 0:49:43.239 else can this be used? Like will we just see 0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:45.319 more countries feel like they can get away with it 0:49:45.640 --> 0:49:49.200 because Israel did? And like that's kind of part of 0:49:49.440 --> 0:49:52.320 looking into the next four years and looking into just 0:49:52.320 --> 0:49:55.040 just how how the world is going in this general 0:49:55.120 --> 0:49:57.239 kind of far right power grab happening all like all 0:49:57.280 --> 0:49:59.880 over the globe. Will more and more countries be kind 0:49:59.920 --> 0:50:03.719 of willing to utilize these types of colonial tactics. 0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:06.000 And it's scary and bad. 0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:11.680 Yeah, I mean when you think about how the severity 0:50:11.760 --> 0:50:14.640 of the clomb situation it's just going to worsen, and 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:17.359 you think about the pressures at places on the most 0:50:17.360 --> 0:50:21.680 exploitive regions of the globe, how that might pressure, you know, migration, 0:50:22.640 --> 0:50:26.800 and how that might pressure sort of efforts to resist 0:50:27.600 --> 0:50:31.120 the sort of tightening of the hold of expectation up 0:50:31.200 --> 0:50:33.640 until the call that was reading this book called one 0:50:33.680 --> 0:50:38.440 of People's History of Fashion, just thinking about the whole 0:50:38.480 --> 0:50:41.440 textile trade as a whole and how it impacts different 0:50:41.480 --> 0:50:44.439 parts of the globe and whatever, and just talking about 0:50:44.440 --> 0:50:47.839 this now, I'm just thinking like, if workers in those 0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:51.120 countries were to stand up, well, in all this time, 0:50:51.560 --> 0:50:54.719 you know, some of the most deadly struggles or taking 0:50:54.719 --> 0:50:57.920 place in these regions, in these saturns, but if they 0:50:57.920 --> 0:51:01.839 were to stand up and resist, now, I mean it, mind, 0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:04.360 you've got even more open and then blatant with the 0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:07.120 suppression of those people and those voices, and as they 0:51:07.120 --> 0:51:09.480 attempt to try and make their way out of those 0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:13.120 those hot spots, those hot regions of instability and violence 0:51:13.160 --> 0:51:17.200 and climate catastrophe. You know, we have all this migrant 0:51:17.280 --> 0:51:20.360 rhetoric to yes, make the struggle even worse. 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:23.279 That's like the fucoas boomerang idea of all of these 0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:26.919 colonial tactics also can eventually turned inward. And right now 0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:30.160 you see the same level of dehumanization being levied against 0:51:30.360 --> 0:51:33.680 like millions of immigrants who are here both legally as 0:51:33.680 --> 0:51:37.279 refugees and are also here undocumented. But it's the same 0:51:37.360 --> 0:51:40.920 like rhetorical tactics that make people okay with this is 0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:43.759 that level of dehumanization. And you also see that, of 0:51:43.800 --> 0:51:46.520 course levied against like trans people. You still see that 0:51:46.560 --> 0:51:50.320 livid against indigenous people, and it's just like a growing 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:52.600 list of people that are no longer seen as like 0:51:53.000 --> 0:51:54.080 real humans. 0:51:54.840 --> 0:51:57.840 Yeah, for some reason you're saying that, my mind fixates 0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:00.520 it on the fact that you said undocumented, and it's 0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:03.279 reminded me of the absurdity of all of this. The 0:52:03.320 --> 0:52:08.040 difference is literally some pieces of people. The difference is 0:52:08.080 --> 0:52:11.960 literally a rule of the dice spawn point from one 0:52:12.000 --> 0:52:14.560 side of the water or another. I have we allow 0:52:14.680 --> 0:52:19.360 this to like totally dominate our lives. 0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:24.000 Yeah, it's like a it's like a deep spiritual evil. 0:52:24.760 --> 0:52:27.960 So many people don't even like realize the absurdity of it, 0:52:28.000 --> 0:52:30.440 and how just like it takes away so much of 0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:34.120 like thought and empathy and people people just don't even know, 0:52:34.280 --> 0:52:36.879 Like they don't even like process that that's what they've 0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:41.000 done to themselves by like constructing this system that they 0:52:41.040 --> 0:52:45.000 believe is like divine or like enshrined by God. 0:52:45.000 --> 0:52:46.960 The right to exist defense. 0:52:47.360 --> 0:52:49.239 Yeah, like it's it is. So much of it is 0:52:49.280 --> 0:52:52.360 a dice roll. So much of it is situations beyond 0:52:52.400 --> 0:52:54.240 anyone's conscious control. 0:52:55.239 --> 0:53:00.759 Yeah, And to sort of pull us back on to 0:53:00.880 --> 0:53:03.640 the track, you can also see the mirrors between the 0:53:03.640 --> 0:53:09.319 current past Indian struggle and theon Gordmapuch struggle and even 0:53:09.360 --> 0:53:12.960 going back to this time that I have even discussing 0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:16.759 the Puchi struggle of the past, because despite all of 0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:20.759 this conal expansion, the Upuci resisted not only militarily but culturally. 0:53:21.320 --> 0:53:22.960 They held on to their language, they held on to 0:53:22.960 --> 0:53:25.839 their customs, they held onto their spiritual practices, they held 0:53:25.880 --> 0:53:29.920 on to their identity in defiance of assimilations policies and 0:53:29.960 --> 0:53:33.840 across the Andes. Meanwhile, Argentina was pursuing a similarly aggressive 0:53:33.840 --> 0:53:36.640 campaign just known as the Conquest of the Desert. This 0:53:36.760 --> 0:53:40.640 was led by General Julio Argentino Rocca in the eighteen 0:53:40.680 --> 0:53:44.400 seventies and eighteen eighties, and this really sort of eradicate 0:53:44.520 --> 0:53:46.839 and displace all the indigenous groups through in the area, 0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:49.800 including the Mapuch who had lived on the fertile Pampas 0:53:49.880 --> 0:53:54.040 and Patagonian regions, to secure valuable land for wait for it, 0:53:54.840 --> 0:54:01.360 cattle ranchin agriculture and European settler expansion cattaranchian as in 0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:05.360 you know, the whole meat trade. 0:54:06.120 --> 0:54:08.359 The cows are more important than the people. 0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:12.080 Exactly, and the demand for the cows is more important 0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:16.480 than people. They see this violence of agricultural and expansion 0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:19.080 other places as well, as I said, I was reading 0:54:19.239 --> 0:54:21.239 one and one of the things she notes is that 0:54:21.280 --> 0:54:25.480 part of what pushed the American westward expansion was that 0:54:25.800 --> 0:54:29.920 they were growing cotton, and cotton is extremely intensive and 0:54:30.000 --> 0:54:33.560 historically cotton was grown in a polyculture, was grown with 0:54:33.600 --> 0:54:37.640 other plants. Right with these cotton monocultures, it really quickly 0:54:37.800 --> 0:54:40.560 strips the soil of its nutrients, and so they were 0:54:40.600 --> 0:54:43.040 pushing westward because they kept on having to find new 0:54:43.120 --> 0:54:46.120 land to grow the cotton on. And of course who 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:49.520 was working that cotton and who was working with plantations, 0:54:49.600 --> 0:54:52.480 just explotation all the way down and all that just 0:54:52.520 --> 0:54:56.239 to feed this rapacious appetite of expansion. You know, we 0:54:56.239 --> 0:55:00.800 had thousands of years of sustainable growth and sustainable cyclical 0:55:00.880 --> 0:55:04.880 economy use, but things that that would last, and just 0:55:04.920 --> 0:55:09.000 in these last few centuries we've just completely lost that 0:55:09.280 --> 0:55:13.040 because above all the line has to go up well. 0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:17.120 And like also part of that quest for agricultural domination. 0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:19.600 In order to make that possible, there's the invention of 0:55:19.640 --> 0:55:22.960 the international slave trade, which is similarly built on this 0:55:23.120 --> 0:55:27.120 level of just base decumanization and the desire for agricultural 0:55:27.160 --> 0:55:31.520 production being way more important than the humanity of like 0:55:31.840 --> 0:55:34.200 everybody involved in that process, yep. 0:55:34.880 --> 0:55:38.960 And then it's also tied to the petrochemical trade because 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:43.759 to maintaining these soils in this unnatural form, you have 0:55:43.840 --> 0:55:48.839 to basically pump the land with these artificial fertilizers, which 0:55:48.880 --> 0:55:51.799 are typically derived from Patrick Ammick goals, and. 0:55:52.160 --> 0:55:55.560 Like that, that process of the soil basically becoming dead 0:55:55.880 --> 0:55:58.960 like started even as early as like the late eighteen hundreds. 0:55:59.000 --> 0:56:02.040 Like this, this is just like a modern problem in 0:56:02.040 --> 0:56:04.920 like the wet past, like fifty hundred years all of 0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:07.800 that land was like overused and starting to get destroyed 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:10.840 almost like two hundred years ago, but specifically like the 0:56:10.920 --> 0:56:12.120 late eighteen hundreds. 0:56:12.760 --> 0:56:15.719 Yeah, and this is what we're looking at here, and 0:56:15.800 --> 0:56:20.080 this this particular historical narrative we're just watching. The fall 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:22.920 of wild Mapo, of course, was looking at at a 0:56:23.000 --> 0:56:27.920 more grandize sence, the fall of the remaining communities that 0:56:28.040 --> 0:56:32.480 actually were maintaining that connection land there being in this 0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:35.440 process subjugated so that there is no resistance and no 0:56:35.520 --> 0:56:38.960 present to alternative to the extractive model that was at 0:56:39.040 --> 0:56:43.520 least part of the goal of this expansion. As we 0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:48.160 see in Argentina, the few Mapuche who survived this massacre 0:56:48.840 --> 0:56:52.160 because they employed all sorts of tactics rangers from scorch 0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:58.120 student policies to force relocations to like outright just you know, 0:56:59.040 --> 0:57:02.239 the few that survived for relocated to reservations, tripped to 0:57:02.280 --> 0:57:06.279 their land and reduced to laborers within this modern or 0:57:06.360 --> 0:57:11.799 rapidly modernized in Argentina and General Rocker's campaign was celebrated 0:57:11.800 --> 0:57:17.640 by the Argentine elite as a triumph of civilization over barbarism. 0:57:18.080 --> 0:57:21.720 Where have I heard that before? So in both Chile's 0:57:21.760 --> 0:57:25.960 passification of Aracanya and Argentina's conquest of the desert. He 0:57:26.080 --> 0:57:29.760 had this large scale dispossession of Apucca land. And while 0:57:29.760 --> 0:57:33.200 Mapoo now being fully split by the border of Argentina 0:57:33.280 --> 0:57:36.520 and Chile, the vast majority of Puce now live in Chile. 0:57:36.680 --> 0:57:38.480 There are only a few times one thousands left in 0:57:38.640 --> 0:57:52.400 Argentina to this day. Initially, Mapucha leaders and communities launched 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:56.200 uprisings and gorilla attacks against the Chilean and Argentine military forces, 0:57:56.600 --> 0:58:00.640 fighting to defend their territories, but as military suppression tensified, 0:58:01.000 --> 0:58:03.880 resistance also had to adapt When Puchia communities had to 0:58:03.880 --> 0:58:08.480 adopt more fluid forms of opposition, intaining cultural practices, stories, 0:58:08.480 --> 0:58:12.360 and languages as an active resistance. Some of Pucci leaders 0:58:12.360 --> 0:58:16.000 petitioned for land rights and autonomy through legal channels, seeking 0:58:16.080 --> 0:58:19.480 to challenge dispossession through the courts. Others continue to resist 0:58:19.520 --> 0:58:24.320 through armed confrontation, often leading isolated uprisings when government forces 0:58:24.360 --> 0:58:28.000 overstepped or attempted to cease more landed. The future resistance 0:58:28.000 --> 0:58:31.480 that follows this period is basically rooted in the traumas 0:58:31.480 --> 0:58:34.760 of this period, as the people were forcibly integrated into 0:58:34.840 --> 0:58:40.200 Chilean and Argentine societies, yet never fully accepted. As we 0:58:40.240 --> 0:58:43.400 move into the early twentieth century, the Pusche communities continue 0:58:43.440 --> 0:58:45.680 to be hit hard by policies that aim to dissolve 0:58:45.720 --> 0:58:49.160 the traditional ways of life. The Chilean and Argentine governments 0:58:49.200 --> 0:58:52.800 squeeze Onucha onto reservations, but surrounding lands were given to 0:58:52.840 --> 0:58:57.240 power for landowners and settlers. Land's guesty was a significant issue, 0:58:57.240 --> 0:59:00.360 as from Puchet families often had thoughts too more to 0:59:00.400 --> 0:59:04.800 sustain their traditional agricultural practices, and the dispossession led economic 0:59:04.800 --> 0:59:09.840 hardship and wide tread poverty further marginalized them from national economies. 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:13.680 The assimilation attempts to frame ndition as community identity as 0:59:13.720 --> 0:59:17.720 something to be erased in favor of European norms, pushed 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:22.120 out the Mapundun language and cultural ties and aimed to 0:59:22.160 --> 0:59:27.840 impose Spanish as the primary language. Thankfully, today, Mapundum still 0:59:27.880 --> 0:59:31.840 survives as the language and the Jucha people at the 0:59:31.840 --> 0:59:34.480 time Mapuchi were also forced into the wage labor on 0:59:34.600 --> 0:59:38.120 settler farms experience and of course very harsh conditions are 0:59:38.160 --> 0:59:41.760 very little protection. Many of them. Mapuchi ended up migrating from 0:59:41.800 --> 0:59:45.160 rural areas to cities as the arable land twindled, and 0:59:45.200 --> 0:59:48.960 then found themselves in places like Santiago and Temuco beginning 0:59:48.960 --> 0:59:52.560 the nineteen thirty years and Anima Puchier families ended up 0:59:52.600 --> 0:59:55.280 working as laborers and urban centers where their these new 0:59:55.320 --> 0:59:58.439 forms of discrimination. A lot of Mpuche women ended up 0:59:58.480 --> 1:00:03.200 going to work as servants within the houses of the 1:00:03.280 --> 1:00:07.720 Chilean elite, and during this period of hardship, Iarlimapoucha political 1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:11.840 movements began to take shape. In the nineteen tens, Wabuchi 1:00:11.920 --> 1:00:16.040 leaders organized groups like Societ Dad Kapu Likan Defense Soa 1:00:16.160 --> 1:00:19.560 de la Arakanya, which advocated for land rights and civil 1:00:19.600 --> 1:00:23.520 protections agent to reclaim the dispossessed land and fight against 1:00:23.560 --> 1:00:27.800 the abuse of indigenous laborers. These early organizations marked a 1:00:27.880 --> 1:00:32.680 significant shift in Mapuche strategy represented a movement towards formal 1:00:33.160 --> 1:00:36.960 political approaches to resistance. The assaulstionment of political alliances that 1:00:37.000 --> 1:00:41.280 sympathetic groups also strengthened Mpucha cause. In the nineteen twenties 1:00:41.400 --> 1:00:45.120 nineteen thirties, indigenous organizations began working with the Chilean communists 1:00:45.120 --> 1:00:49.240 and socialist parties, focusing on indigenous labor issues and broader 1:00:49.280 --> 1:00:54.920 anti landlord campaigns. However, these alliances often prioritized national labor 1:00:54.920 --> 1:00:59.480 and Akrainian reform over specific indition's rights, leaving Themapouche to 1:00:59.520 --> 1:01:02.840 continue the fight largely on their own terms. But in 1:01:02.880 --> 1:01:06.680 spite of this limited political power, these early efforts helped 1:01:06.720 --> 1:01:09.640 lay the groundwork for later land rights activism. From the 1:01:09.680 --> 1:01:14.760 mid twentieth century onward, rapid and gustrialization, extractive forestry operations 1:01:14.880 --> 1:01:19.920 and monoculture plantations began to dominate Mapucha land, and pollution increased. 1:01:20.240 --> 1:01:23.480 Rivers were contaminated. Forest power of diversity was replaced by 1:01:23.560 --> 1:01:27.120 non native species like pine and eucalyptus plantations, and all 1:01:27.160 --> 1:01:31.040 of this leads, of course, soiled depletion. The remaining Mapuchia, 1:01:31.040 --> 1:01:35.720 agriculture and local ecosystems were naturally threatened, which fully compel 1:01:36.400 --> 1:01:39.720 their resistance. At the same time, they were still, of course, 1:01:39.760 --> 1:01:43.000 working to preserve their language, their cultural practices, their music, 1:01:43.040 --> 1:01:47.400 their arts, the spiritual ceremonies. For a small moment, there 1:01:47.520 --> 1:01:51.680 was some hope as the government of Salvador Allende, you 1:01:51.800 --> 1:01:55.960 know this is going passed an indigenous law that recognized 1:01:55.960 --> 1:01:59.920 their distinctive culture and history and began to restore Mapuche 1:02:00.000 --> 1:02:04.360 Commune a lot. But I think we all remember how 1:02:04.400 --> 1:02:07.760 that to end oubt. Bam bam, you have a who 1:02:07.760 --> 1:02:12.000 are coop sponsored by the US, and Pinochet is in power. 1:02:12.640 --> 1:02:15.320 In power, Pinochet calls for the division of the reserves 1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:19.720 and the liquidation of the Indian communities. He initially sounds 1:02:19.720 --> 1:02:22.640 like a cartoon villain of everything I've read and learned 1:02:22.640 --> 1:02:26.480 about him, I mean, who speaks of the liquidation of 1:02:26.560 --> 1:02:27.080 a people? 1:02:27.440 --> 1:02:30.840 Pinochet is extremely cartoon villain coded, except it was a 1:02:30.880 --> 1:02:35.120 real person. So I also have this tendency to not 1:02:35.400 --> 1:02:40.080 dismiss super evil people as like unhuman monsters, because I 1:02:40.080 --> 1:02:42.760 think that actually limits our understanding of how evil humans 1:02:42.800 --> 1:02:45.480 can be. Sure, and this isn't even just a pure principle, 1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:49.000 like I don't like dehumanization in general, it's that I 1:02:49.040 --> 1:02:51.200 think it actually makes these people harder to beat if 1:02:51.240 --> 1:02:54.240 you view them as like some monstrous force instead of 1:02:54.240 --> 1:02:57.520 something that's actually deeply human and Yeah, he is a 1:02:57.520 --> 1:03:01.480 cartoon villain. He's also like a person, and like that's 1:03:01.520 --> 1:03:03.800 actually kind of more scary than just viewing him as 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:04.480 some monster. 1:03:04.880 --> 1:03:06.520 Very true, And I don't know, it's a. 1:03:06.400 --> 1:03:08.720 Frame of thought I've come back on specifically and like 1:03:09.320 --> 1:03:10.800 thinking about like anti fascism. 1:03:11.440 --> 1:03:15.360 Yeah, I mean, that's something I always think about when 1:03:15.400 --> 1:03:18.720 I think of a lot of the most brutal world 1:03:18.800 --> 1:03:24.320 leaders across human history. I often think, you know, this 1:03:24.400 --> 1:03:27.480 person did not spawn out of the air. There was 1:03:27.480 --> 1:03:30.320 a time when this person was a newborn and they 1:03:30.320 --> 1:03:34.840 were babbling, learning to speak, learning to walk, became a toddler, 1:03:35.040 --> 1:03:43.560 small child, pre teen, teenager, young adults, so much nature 1:03:43.560 --> 1:03:46.800 and nurture would have gone into the police and they became. 1:03:48.440 --> 1:03:50.720 But they had the same spawn point as everybody else. 1:03:51.360 --> 1:03:56.960 They all started as a baby, and Pinochet was unfortunately 1:03:58.160 --> 1:04:01.920 no exception. After the pass and of his decree twenty 1:04:01.960 --> 1:04:04.720 five sixty eight to nineteen seventy nine, the number of 1:04:04.760 --> 1:04:09.280 indigenous creaties was reduced by twenty five percent and several 1:04:09.320 --> 1:04:14.800 Mapuchia leaders were murdered, threatened with imprisonment or excerpt. After 1:04:14.840 --> 1:04:19.080 the fall of Pinochet and returned to democracy, uppuch had 1:04:19.080 --> 1:04:22.520 a resurgionce and identity and political activism for the nineteen nineties. 1:04:23.320 --> 1:04:26.320 This revival gained momentum after the passage of Chile's Indigenous 1:04:26.360 --> 1:04:28.880 Law in nineteen ninety three, which acknowledged the Puche land 1:04:28.960 --> 1:04:32.680 right to advocated for bilingual education, opening new paths for 1:04:32.760 --> 1:04:37.000 cultural reclamatia. That same year, Nampuchi representatives at the UN 1:04:37.040 --> 1:04:40.040 pushed for Chile to adopt Iolo Convention one sixty nine, 1:04:40.360 --> 1:04:43.600 a key indigious rights treaty, but Chile didn't actually ratify 1:04:43.640 --> 1:04:46.160 the convention until two thousand and eight. Despite the established 1:04:46.200 --> 1:04:49.120 run to the National Cooperation of Indigenous Development or KANNADI 1:04:49.160 --> 1:04:52.640 in nineteen twenty three to facilitate indigenous inclusion in policy making, 1:04:53.160 --> 1:04:57.680 Mapucha involvement in such state institutions has not guaranteed geruine representation. 1:04:58.240 --> 1:05:02.520 Several KANNADI leaders who openly advocated from Mapucha autonomy or 1:05:02.600 --> 1:05:06.880 pushed against corporate interests have been removed from their positions. 1:05:07.080 --> 1:05:13.520 In twenty fifteen, Governor Francisco Juanchomia, a Promapuchi advocate in Aracanya, 1:05:13.760 --> 1:05:16.120 was removed from his position due to his support for 1:05:16.240 --> 1:05:21.840 legal reforms recognizing Mapucha rights. He can'tgo and change the system. 1:05:22.360 --> 1:05:24.640 System changes you will gets you out of the way. 1:05:25.360 --> 1:05:30.439 With the intensification of extractive industries roach lands, a wave 1:05:30.480 --> 1:05:34.200 of activism emerged, specifically aimed the protecting secret territories and 1:05:34.240 --> 1:05:39.360 the environment. Mapuchi activists frequently have stood up against forestry companies, 1:05:39.640 --> 1:05:43.320 hydroelectric projects, and multinational corporations that have aimed to exploit 1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:46.760 their resources, the e engaging land occupations and protests for 1:05:46.840 --> 1:05:51.160 land restitution and environmental protection. The Chilean stage reaction to 1:05:51.200 --> 1:05:58.480 Maputa activism is entirely predictable harsh repression under anti terrorism legislation. 1:05:58.960 --> 1:06:02.400 Mapoochier activists fe heightened police, civil lands, in prison, lond 1:06:02.760 --> 1:06:08.080 accusations of terrorism a toxic which is universally used to 1:06:08.120 --> 1:06:14.160 delegitimize resistance to injustice and violence, explotation, and destructure. 1:06:14.800 --> 1:06:16.520 It is kind of one of those magic words that 1:06:16.560 --> 1:06:19.960 has been increasingly invoked in the past twenty years. 1:06:20.240 --> 1:06:25.080 Yeah, terrorist is a magic wood. Illegal is another magic wood. 1:06:25.320 --> 1:06:27.800 Yeah, they're all just like the humanization terms, right, Like, 1:06:27.840 --> 1:06:29.800 you are not a person, you are not an ex 1:06:30.240 --> 1:06:33.920 you are not well whatever, you are a terrorist and uh, 1:06:34.520 --> 1:06:37.160 terrorists do not have the same rights as humans. It's 1:06:37.160 --> 1:06:39.240 not a war crime if you do it against a terrorist. 1:06:39.480 --> 1:06:44.000 Luke Skywalker was not a terrorist. You are a terrorist, 1:06:45.720 --> 1:06:45.920 you know. 1:06:46.200 --> 1:06:48.360 But no like like whether you're like finding in like 1:06:48.400 --> 1:06:51.800 an actual resistance movement or you're just attending like a 1:06:51.840 --> 1:06:55.000 protest in a in an American city, both of those 1:06:55.040 --> 1:06:58.000 can now become quote unquote terrorists. 1:06:57.680 --> 1:07:02.000 Or or some like level clerk who just happens to 1:07:02.040 --> 1:07:03.080 be within has Aboulah. 1:07:03.600 --> 1:07:06.120 Yeah, or you're a daughter of a low level clerk 1:07:06.480 --> 1:07:09.640 who is picking up a pager and oops, I guess 1:07:09.720 --> 1:07:13.600 your dad shouldn't have been a terrorist in like Jesus Christ. 1:07:14.840 --> 1:07:15.080 Yeah. 1:07:15.920 --> 1:07:19.880 Yeah. And then of course the media has a big 1:07:19.920 --> 1:07:24.120 part to play in all this. You know, terrorist as 1:07:24.120 --> 1:07:28.240 a term is associated with certain stereotypes about various groups 1:07:28.280 --> 1:07:30.720 of people. In the past few years, it's been the 1:07:30.800 --> 1:07:36.600 you know, machete and ak waven Islamist fightal but in 1:07:36.640 --> 1:07:41.440 other time periods it was another prominent stereotype, you know, 1:07:41.800 --> 1:07:47.720 the Black seventies revolutionary or Vietcong And in the Chilean situation, 1:07:48.400 --> 1:07:54.080 media portrayals have also reinforced stereotypes of ampuch violence, which 1:07:54.160 --> 1:07:57.200 of course serves the rule of obscure in the reality 1:07:57.200 --> 1:08:00.720 of their fight for justice and environmental stewardship. It hasn't 1:08:00.720 --> 1:08:06.439 all been for not the mapuch struggle. That is, they 1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:10.440 have had a few legal triumphs rulans where the Inter 1:08:10.520 --> 1:08:14.480 American Court of Human Rights has held Chile accountable in 1:08:14.640 --> 1:08:16.960 air quotes as much as any state is actually held 1:08:16.960 --> 1:08:21.400 accountable for valuating Mapuche rights. Grassroots groups and as collectives 1:08:21.400 --> 1:08:25.519 with white have also supported Mapucha efforts. But curly these 1:08:25.760 --> 1:08:30.639 small victories and triumphs are really not much. They're not enough. 1:08:31.360 --> 1:08:34.960 Within the broader Auch movement, you do have the reformists 1:08:35.640 --> 1:08:39.800 and the simulationists, and you have groups like Quording their 1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:44.800 Daughter Arako Mayeko or Camp and they're splinter group, which 1:08:44.840 --> 1:08:49.840 is why chan Alca Mapu and they've adopted separatist stances, 1:08:50.080 --> 1:08:53.799 advocating for direct actions such as land occupations and resistance 1:08:53.800 --> 1:08:57.840 against state forces because they view autonomy and territorial reclamation 1:08:58.000 --> 1:09:02.479 as essential to mapuchia soeignty and they have no interest 1:09:02.600 --> 1:09:05.800 in compromise with the extractive industries and government that are 1:09:05.800 --> 1:09:09.400 responsible for their suffering. Traditionally, these groups have focused on 1:09:09.479 --> 1:09:13.120 acts of economic sabotage against companies that are infringing on 1:09:13.200 --> 1:09:18.839 their lands and their stewardship. Within wider Chilean society. There's 1:09:19.040 --> 1:09:24.560 still some prejudice against some Mapuche, particularly, but not exclusively 1:09:24.800 --> 1:09:27.839 from the right way, but she lays twenty nineteen uprising 1:09:27.880 --> 1:09:33.160 against inequality and government abuses found strong supports and allieship 1:09:34.000 --> 1:09:38.519 between wider Chilean society and Upuche communities who had seen 1:09:38.600 --> 1:09:42.360 echoes of their own grievances and national protests. The protests 1:09:42.400 --> 1:09:45.600 were initially sparked by a Maturro affair hike, but they 1:09:45.680 --> 1:09:50.240 quickly became a national movement demanding systemic reform in both 1:09:50.320 --> 1:09:54.560 urban and rural spaces. Thepuche communities joined or supported protesters. 1:09:54.880 --> 1:09:58.320 Were resistant continued to government policies that marginalize their communities 1:09:58.520 --> 1:10:02.519 and undermined their cultural rights. Mapuocha symbols and flags emerged 1:10:02.560 --> 1:10:06.240 prominently align in aditional struggles with these were demands of 1:10:06.280 --> 1:10:10.680 social justice, and the government response can you predict, was 1:10:10.720 --> 1:10:15.479 swift and severe. Military and police forces were deployed to 1:10:15.600 --> 1:10:20.040 use excessive violence. Apuch Ben knew about this, but some 1:10:20.080 --> 1:10:23.160 of the Chileans their experiencing this for the first time, 1:10:23.920 --> 1:10:28.400 and this mutual experience of repression reinforced alliances between the 1:10:28.479 --> 1:10:31.800 Mapuche and the Chilean activists, as both faced the stature 1:10:31.840 --> 1:10:35.080 of enviolence of propaganda that portrayed them as radicals and 1:10:35.160 --> 1:10:39.559 terrorists and extremists. So despite the crackdown, the uprising saw 1:10:39.720 --> 1:10:43.919 unprecedented support for the Mapuche cause, amplifying calls for restitution 1:10:44.000 --> 1:10:47.000 of indigious lands, former recognition of Appouoche rights in a 1:10:47.040 --> 1:10:50.919 reformed constitution, and a declinal approach to governments the respects 1:10:50.960 --> 1:10:54.439 indigenous autonomy. The twenty nineteen protests laid the groundwork for 1:10:54.479 --> 1:10:58.799 a national constitutional reform was significant Mapucha involvement to public 1:10:58.800 --> 1:11:02.240 support in a new constitutions with the twenty one raised 1:11:02.240 --> 1:11:06.240 the potential for ensurance indigenous rights from Puccier representatives actively 1:11:06.240 --> 1:11:09.759 participate in the process and creating renewed optimism for meaningful 1:11:10.080 --> 1:11:15.240 legal reprotections the respecting Puja, culture, territory and autonomy. That 1:11:15.680 --> 1:11:19.120 somewhat progressive attempt at a constitution reform, which also included 1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:23.519 gender equality measures, was rejected, and so there was another 1:11:23.560 --> 1:11:26.320 attempt just last year enter to twenty three, but it 1:11:26.439 --> 1:11:30.040 was a very conservative attempt shaped by the far right 1:11:30.120 --> 1:11:34.959 Republican Party, which trickter provisions and immigration, a ban and abortion, 1:11:35.360 --> 1:11:38.400 and a free market focus that did not resonate with 1:11:38.479 --> 1:11:42.120 the majority of voters. Fifty five point eight percent voted 1:11:42.120 --> 1:11:45.280 against the twenty twenty three draft and forty four point 1:11:45.280 --> 1:11:50.320 two percent in fever. Chile In President Gabriel Borek, whose 1:11:50.320 --> 1:11:54.800 administration had supported constitutional change, acknowledged that further attempts that 1:11:54.840 --> 1:11:59.320 constitutional reform were unlikely. So for now, Chile continues to 1:11:59.320 --> 1:12:01.640 be governed by the constitution that dates back to the 1:12:01.680 --> 1:12:05.920 dictatorship of Pinochet, while its leaders looking at alternative calves 1:12:06.240 --> 1:12:08.800 for address and social, economic, and environments of this suites 1:12:09.160 --> 1:12:12.639 in line with Chilean public opinion. If you know anything 1:12:12.680 --> 1:12:14.519 about me and my positions, you know that I'm not 1:12:14.640 --> 1:12:17.920 confident in the ability of states to meaningfully respect people's 1:12:17.960 --> 1:12:21.439 agency and autonomy ever. But I wish them Pucha all 1:12:21.479 --> 1:12:25.599 the best wherever their struggle goes, and I've personally found 1:12:25.600 --> 1:12:30.960 their story very impactful. It's one of resilience, adaptability, and 1:12:31.040 --> 1:12:35.280 vase of centuries of advolicity. They've had an unyielding desire 1:12:35.320 --> 1:12:37.839 to maintain their connection to the land and cultural identity, 1:12:38.160 --> 1:12:40.280 and they aren't going fright. Is really just a testament 1:12:40.360 --> 1:12:43.880 to the power of solidarity. And that's it for me. 1:12:44.800 --> 1:12:48.280 This has been all power to all the people. 1:13:07.080 --> 1:13:09.799 Okay, hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here today. 1:13:09.840 --> 1:13:13.760 We're very lucky to be joined by Vladimir von Bilgenberg, 1:13:13.840 --> 1:13:17.400 who's an underground journalist who covers Syria, and Curtis Dan 1:13:17.479 --> 1:13:20.840 has written two books, including one on the alliance between 1:13:20.880 --> 1:13:23.840 the SDF and the Coalition. Is that is that a 1:13:23.880 --> 1:13:25.680 fair introduction in Vladimir. 1:13:27.400 --> 1:13:27.479 Ye? 1:13:28.479 --> 1:13:30.760 Okay, thank you, thank you so much for joining us. 1:13:31.200 --> 1:13:34.040 There has obviously been a massive increase, in a massive 1:13:34.120 --> 1:13:37.040 change in the conflict in Syria in the last week 1:13:37.160 --> 1:13:40.080 or so, just under a week, and I think the 1:13:40.120 --> 1:13:44.719 information that's available to people is often very bad, very delayed, 1:13:45.000 --> 1:13:48.400 or one side or rather putting out propaganda things which 1:13:49.120 --> 1:13:53.280 mischaracterized the situation on the ground, especially with regard to 1:13:53.320 --> 1:13:55.240 the Syrian National Army, who we're going to talk about. 1:13:55.840 --> 1:14:00.320 Would you mind giving us a sort of very reef 1:14:00.400 --> 1:14:05.400 explanation of what has happened since last Wednesday when HTS, 1:14:05.439 --> 1:14:08.960 who will have to explain later, launch their operation against Aleppo. 1:14:09.400 --> 1:14:13.639 Well, in general, I mean the current situation ALAPO came 1:14:13.680 --> 1:14:17.439 to a surprise too many many people didn't expect it. So, 1:14:17.600 --> 1:14:21.960 just after the ceasefire in Lebanon, the Hayata te Rocham, 1:14:22.040 --> 1:14:25.400 which is offshoot of al Qaeda, so they said they 1:14:25.400 --> 1:14:27.559 don't have relations with al Qaida anymore. They split off 1:14:27.560 --> 1:14:31.400 from al Qaeda. They launched a big operation in Alappo 1:14:31.439 --> 1:14:35.200 against the Serian government or the same regime, whatever you 1:14:35.240 --> 1:14:38.920 want to call it. I think initially they didn't think 1:14:39.400 --> 1:14:41.160 that they would go so far, all the way into 1:14:41.200 --> 1:14:47.000 Alappo city. There have been agreements between Russia, Iran, and 1:14:47.080 --> 1:14:52.040 Turkey and Syria in Astana about the deconflection zone in 1:14:52.080 --> 1:14:57.400 the northwestern province of Italy. So the HTS insurgents, they 1:14:57.439 --> 1:15:01.280 claim they launched this operation towards Aleppo in response to 1:15:01.360 --> 1:15:04.200 violation of this Astana agreement. So according to that agreement, 1:15:04.720 --> 1:15:06.960 this area will be in control of the HDS and 1:15:07.000 --> 1:15:08.760 the other area will be control of the regime and 1:15:08.800 --> 1:15:11.559 they wouldn't bother each other. But this agreement was never 1:15:11.600 --> 1:15:14.880 really implemented, I mean versus Russia. They were constantly bombing it. 1:15:15.520 --> 1:15:19.439 Sometimes the HTS would attack regime positions. Also according to 1:15:19.479 --> 1:15:23.240 this deconfliction zone, actually the Serian government and I reining 1:15:23.320 --> 1:15:26.280 back armed groups. They went actually in that the de 1:15:26.400 --> 1:15:30.480 confliction zone was supposed to be controlled by the Seyian insurgents. 1:15:30.880 --> 1:15:34.040 So they launched this operation in response to the they 1:15:34.040 --> 1:15:37.559 say the violations by the Serian government, and I think 1:15:37.560 --> 1:15:40.880 because when they realized that the defenses of the Serian 1:15:40.920 --> 1:15:43.519 government very weak, they pushed further into Aleppo. And it 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:45.759 was not really planned to take the city of Aleppo, 1:15:46.160 --> 1:15:50.160 although there's also a video of Jiulani, the leader of HDS, 1:15:50.479 --> 1:15:52.800 saying that my brothers, one day we're going to be 1:15:52.800 --> 1:15:55.240 an Aleppo, So maybe it was planned. We don't know 1:15:55.360 --> 1:15:58.040 really for sure, but the fact is that the Syrian 1:15:58.120 --> 1:16:02.400 government defense is collab and for some people in the region, 1:16:02.439 --> 1:16:05.000 it was sort of reminded of the days of Mussol 1:16:05.040 --> 1:16:08.639 when the Iraqi army they fled Mussol in twenty thirty 1:16:08.800 --> 1:16:12.200 fourteen and then Isis took over, although the HTS really 1:16:12.240 --> 1:16:15.559 denied that they are similar to ISIS, although they have 1:16:15.640 --> 1:16:19.360 a similar Islamish ideology. So they took the city of 1:16:19.400 --> 1:16:23.080 Aleppo in three days, and they have been trying to 1:16:23.120 --> 1:16:26.800 go up towards Hama, a city more up so far, 1:16:26.840 --> 1:16:28.880 they haven't been able to take the city. And on 1:16:28.920 --> 1:16:30.960 the other hand, you also have another group called the 1:16:30.960 --> 1:16:34.639 Seran National Army, which is groups composed of basic groups 1:16:34.640 --> 1:16:39.000 that were supported by the Turkish government. They also started 1:16:39.040 --> 1:16:43.759 to move. They also started to carry out operations against 1:16:43.800 --> 1:16:46.880 Kurtish lad Forces also known as the Cerrian Democratic Forces 1:16:46.880 --> 1:16:49.800 of the YPG. And also they started to do operations 1:16:49.800 --> 1:16:53.960 against the Syrian government in above Albab and also in 1:16:54.040 --> 1:16:58.080 northern Aleppo. And they took also several towns in northern 1:16:58.120 --> 1:17:02.080 Aleppo and also they advanced and I think their main 1:17:02.120 --> 1:17:05.719 reason of that. So while the HDS is primarily mostly 1:17:05.760 --> 1:17:08.920 fighting against the Syrian government, I think the Serian National Army, 1:17:08.960 --> 1:17:11.200 because it's back by Turkey, they also have an interest 1:17:11.240 --> 1:17:15.080 to undermine the Serian Democratic Forces because Turkey in the 1:17:15.120 --> 1:17:16.720 past they have said they don't want to have a 1:17:16.760 --> 1:17:20.240 second Kurdish autonomous region in the region, because you have 1:17:20.320 --> 1:17:25.479 already won in Iraq, which was became recognized after the 1:17:25.520 --> 1:17:27.280 fall of the Damp, So you have a Kurdistan region 1:17:27.320 --> 1:17:29.920 in Iraq, and Turkey was sort of afraid to have 1:17:29.960 --> 1:17:33.439 a second Kurdistan region in Syria, especially because it's created 1:17:33.520 --> 1:17:37.559 by a group which has ideological affiliation with the pik 1:17:37.560 --> 1:17:41.080 Ak with they follow the idology of the imprisoned leader 1:17:41.080 --> 1:17:44.040 of the pik A k Abdulachlan, which Turkey sees is 1:17:44.080 --> 1:17:47.919 a terrorist organization. So it's very complex, which we always 1:17:48.080 --> 1:17:52.200 keep saying about Syria, but you basically have two different operations. 1:17:52.240 --> 1:17:54.599 You have the Turkish back groups that are trying to 1:17:54.640 --> 1:17:58.280 stop the Kurts from linking up with Aleppo, and then 1:17:58.320 --> 1:18:02.040 you have the HDS, the Islamist groups that are trying 1:18:02.080 --> 1:18:04.599 to go up and they already took Alepo and they 1:18:04.640 --> 1:18:07.920 also took many areas in the countryside of Hama, and 1:18:08.000 --> 1:18:10.680 actually they now control all of the province. So in 1:18:10.680 --> 1:18:12.880 the past the certain government they control some parts of 1:18:13.080 --> 1:18:16.679 lip but now they control the it's as they control 1:18:16.720 --> 1:18:18.240 all of Yeah. 1:18:18.400 --> 1:18:20.920 So I think if we start by looking, I think 1:18:21.080 --> 1:18:23.920 most people who listen to this will be familiar with 1:18:24.040 --> 1:18:27.719 the SDF, with the Autonomous Administration in North East Syria, 1:18:28.320 --> 1:18:33.040 and with the ri Java Revolution, and they'll be wondering. 1:18:33.200 --> 1:18:35.760 Kind of the question I get mostly is like how 1:18:35.800 --> 1:18:39.760 does this impact that? That's what people are asking. So 1:18:40.560 --> 1:18:43.000 with that in mind, I think we should explain. Perhaps 1:18:43.200 --> 1:18:46.360 we've talked before in this show about Operation Piece Spring 1:18:46.479 --> 1:18:50.960 e Fretty Shield and these Turkish incursions into previously SDF 1:18:50.960 --> 1:18:55.320 controlled areas and the genocide or violence that accompanied that, 1:18:55.560 --> 1:18:59.240 or ethnic cleansing, however you want to phrase it. Can 1:18:59.280 --> 1:19:02.519 you explain what happened in the areas where the SNA 1:19:02.640 --> 1:19:06.400 have advanced and like what that's meant for the Kurdish 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:09.679 people who lived there or in some cases are still there. 1:19:10.000 --> 1:19:13.320 Yeah, in the in the northern Aleppo and Aleppo City, 1:19:13.400 --> 1:19:17.160 so you have two Kurdish neighborhoods called Ashrafiya and Chech Maksut. 1:19:17.200 --> 1:19:19.800 There are around one hundred to two hundred thousand people 1:19:19.840 --> 1:19:23.240 living there. Then you have also two small Kurdish towns 1:19:23.280 --> 1:19:26.840 called Tel Aran and Tel Hassel, which have changed hands 1:19:27.200 --> 1:19:30.080 constantly during the Serian Civil War between the YEPG, the 1:19:30.120 --> 1:19:33.479 Syrian government and Iran, then by the rebels done by 1:19:33.560 --> 1:19:36.360 ISIS than by al Kaida, like it was a big mess. Yeah. 1:19:36.840 --> 1:19:39.840 Then you have also you have like Kurts that were 1:19:39.880 --> 1:19:42.679 displaced from Afrine because Turkey they carried out an operation 1:19:42.760 --> 1:19:46.040 against the YPG in twenty eighteen, So you have thousands 1:19:46.080 --> 1:19:49.800 of Kurts that left Afrine. So the statistics are a 1:19:49.840 --> 1:19:52.719 bit unclear, but at least there were around ten thousand 1:19:53.280 --> 1:19:56.320 IDPs living in camps in northern Aleppo, and you also 1:19:56.360 --> 1:19:59.760 have people living outside of the camp, so the statistics 1:19:59.760 --> 1:20:02.679 are always a bit unclear, but it's they now say 1:20:02.760 --> 1:20:06.400 that they were around ten thousand families that were displaced, 1:20:06.880 --> 1:20:10.120 so they were already displaced from Afrine before. And there's 1:20:10.200 --> 1:20:14.599 this town of Tararapad, which has been a strategic location 1:20:14.800 --> 1:20:17.800 in Aleppo because it was sort of like opening up 1:20:17.840 --> 1:20:21.960 the way to Aleppo City and the Kurdish back forces 1:20:22.000 --> 1:20:25.559 they took actually this town with Russian support from the 1:20:25.600 --> 1:20:29.719 Turkish back rebels, so they had like grievances about this town. 1:20:29.880 --> 1:20:34.040 But Turkey, even during the Afrine operation, they didn't get 1:20:34.040 --> 1:20:36.599 the green light to take this town from the Kurtkish 1:20:36.600 --> 1:20:38.600 back groups. Also, the Syrian government was there by the 1:20:38.640 --> 1:20:42.800 way after dreamings, so this town always was like a 1:20:42.880 --> 1:20:47.760 focal point of contention between the Kurts and the Syrian insurgents. 1:20:48.080 --> 1:20:52.120 So what happened after HCS took Aleppo, the Syrian National 1:20:52.240 --> 1:20:55.920 Army with the backing of Turkey, they moved on towards 1:20:55.960 --> 1:20:59.439 Teara Lapad. And also because in the past, there was 1:20:59.560 --> 1:21:03.240 more bad because you have also two small towns called 1:21:03.280 --> 1:21:08.759 Mumble and Zahara. They were like prominently inhabited by people 1:21:08.760 --> 1:21:11.679 from the Shia religion, so there were Iranian back groups 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:13.840 there and they were in the back of Telarafad, so 1:21:13.880 --> 1:21:16.559 they were sort of as a balance. So they sort 1:21:16.560 --> 1:21:18.240 of like the curves, were able to hold out in 1:21:18.240 --> 1:21:22.160 Tarapad despite like many offensive by the Turkish back groups. 1:21:22.640 --> 1:21:25.840 So what happened because of basically all the Syrian government, 1:21:25.880 --> 1:21:28.080 they were removed from Aleppo and as a result, like 1:21:28.360 --> 1:21:32.120 they were very weakend and completely isolated. I mean until 1:21:32.160 --> 1:21:35.640 now there's Kurtish forces in Astrophia and Czech Masud, but 1:21:35.720 --> 1:21:39.400 they're completely surrounded and embargoed by the HTS, which is 1:21:39.400 --> 1:21:43.320 not something new because before this conflict, this new renewed 1:21:43.360 --> 1:21:47.000 conflict in Aleppo, the Syrian government was also imposing embargoes 1:21:47.080 --> 1:21:51.040 on those two neighborhoods, not allowing food and topping electricity 1:21:51.240 --> 1:21:54.559 and bothering people at checkpoints because they had like always 1:21:54.560 --> 1:21:57.439 issues with the Kurtish led forces because they're sort of 1:21:57.439 --> 1:21:59.439 in the Syrian Civil War, they have always played sort 1:21:59.439 --> 1:22:01.720 of a third role, like they want to have their autonomy. 1:22:02.320 --> 1:22:04.719 Then you have the Shiran armed groups. They are trying 1:22:04.760 --> 1:22:07.040 to topple the Syrian government, and then you had the 1:22:07.040 --> 1:22:11.200 Syrian government trying to stop this from happening. And then yeah, 1:22:11.280 --> 1:22:13.760 the Kurtish led forces were trying to create the autonomous 1:22:14.240 --> 1:22:17.439 administration and they got some support from the US in 1:22:17.479 --> 1:22:20.720 the fight against ISIS since the Battle of Kovani. Yeah, 1:22:21.280 --> 1:22:24.160 so yeah, this is like the situation a lepos. So 1:22:24.240 --> 1:22:28.080 now what happened is that thea fat were in twenty sixteen, 1:22:28.120 --> 1:22:31.160 the Parabs of Telfad, they fled. Actually this after s 1:22:31.200 --> 1:22:34.920 THEFYPG took this down. So now the Seen rebels they 1:22:34.920 --> 1:22:37.840 took this down, and this time that the people that 1:22:37.920 --> 1:22:40.040 fled from after into these towns that they were living 1:22:40.080 --> 1:22:43.200 around four or five six IDP camps there, they were 1:22:43.200 --> 1:22:46.600 forced to flee. So the Kurdish groups they were like 1:22:46.680 --> 1:22:49.760 trying to resist the SNA advances, but they were not 1:22:49.800 --> 1:22:52.360 able to resist them because they were completely surrounded because 1:22:52.360 --> 1:22:55.519 as I mentioned, Nobel and Zaka fell, so they were 1:22:55.560 --> 1:22:58.160 like completely pinched from all sides. But before they had 1:22:58.160 --> 1:23:00.960 always like Nobble and Zacha behind them, so they could 1:23:00.960 --> 1:23:03.000 not not be completely surrounded. But this time they were 1:23:03.000 --> 1:23:05.600 completely surrounded. They were forced to leave there or not 1:23:05.680 --> 1:23:08.720 able to continue the fight. So I think there was 1:23:08.800 --> 1:23:11.280 like a de facto deal or something, because you saw 1:23:11.400 --> 1:23:15.839 like convoys with actually with fighters with weapons and armed hunvies. 1:23:15.880 --> 1:23:18.680 They were like being escorted two checkpoints and they were 1:23:18.720 --> 1:23:22.080 allowed to cross towards Sabka actually a town in northeast Aria. 1:23:22.160 --> 1:23:25.200 And maybe most likely the US they were involved in 1:23:25.200 --> 1:23:27.800 the sort of de facto deal and Turkey, but so 1:23:27.880 --> 1:23:30.400 far the US they haven't comment on that, but most 1:23:30.439 --> 1:23:32.759 likely there was sort of a deal for the forces 1:23:32.800 --> 1:23:35.519 in Tarafa to leave with the civilians and they're now 1:23:35.560 --> 1:23:39.400 hosted in camps, in displacement camps in the town of Tabca. 1:23:39.800 --> 1:23:42.839 And then there are still Kurts living as I mentioned 1:23:42.880 --> 1:23:46.320 in Astrapia and chef Marsuda to big neighborhoods in Aleppo. 1:23:46.720 --> 1:23:49.639 And then you have also two small Kurdish towns around 1:23:49.640 --> 1:23:51.880 the Hassa which are now controlled by the year National 1:23:52.000 --> 1:23:58.440 Army the Turkish back groups, so the hyattas their local administration. 1:23:58.520 --> 1:24:00.639 They offered the deal to the Kurdish fighters. He said, 1:24:00.720 --> 1:24:03.599 you can leave these two Kurtish neighborhoods and Aleppo without 1:24:03.600 --> 1:24:06.040 any issues and the Curs that are living there, we 1:24:06.200 --> 1:24:08.639 respect them and they can stay there, but the Kurdish 1:24:08.680 --> 1:24:10.400 fighters they have to leave. But then there was a 1:24:10.439 --> 1:24:13.880 statement i think yesterday by the leader of the SEF, 1:24:13.960 --> 1:24:16.960 the Muslim Ubdi. He was saying like we were forced 1:24:17.000 --> 1:24:19.920 to evacuate the people because we were trying to create 1:24:19.960 --> 1:24:23.600 a corridor between these Kurdish enclaves in Aleppo with the 1:24:23.640 --> 1:24:26.679 rest of North East area, because they are like Turkish 1:24:26.680 --> 1:24:29.600 backed rebels and the certain government in between trying to 1:24:29.880 --> 1:24:32.719 trying to make a corridor. So they said this corridor 1:24:32.840 --> 1:24:35.280 was actually was broken and they were forced to evacuate. 1:24:35.320 --> 1:24:38.840 But he said that the Kurtish forces were still in 1:24:38.840 --> 1:24:42.600 Aleppo resisting. So it seems that the YPG didn't completely 1:24:42.720 --> 1:24:45.600 follow this offer of the HS. But of course we 1:24:45.640 --> 1:24:47.840 don't know if there was maybe a backdoor deal with 1:24:47.880 --> 1:24:51.800 the HTS to allow first people in nordern Alapo to 1:24:51.880 --> 1:24:53.640 leave and then maybe in a later phase that they 1:24:53.640 --> 1:24:55.519 will also leave Aleppo because they are there in a 1:24:55.600 --> 1:24:56.639 quite difficult situation. 1:24:56.960 --> 1:24:58.320 Yeah, a very difficult situation. 1:24:58.760 --> 1:25:01.720 But they're now accused by I see rebels that they 1:25:01.720 --> 1:25:04.360 are positioning snipers in Aleppo and that they are still 1:25:04.400 --> 1:25:07.839 a Leppo. But they never left Czech Masut and Astrapia. 1:25:08.000 --> 1:25:11.200 But I also talked to people. They're saying that civilians 1:25:11.240 --> 1:25:13.880 they were offered in Czech Masud and Astrapia to leave 1:25:14.200 --> 1:25:16.559 that area if they wanted to leave, so they were 1:25:16.600 --> 1:25:18.920 not forced to leave, that they had the option opportunity 1:25:18.960 --> 1:25:22.000 to leave that area if they wanted. But then the 1:25:22.040 --> 1:25:24.840 buses didn't show up and they didn't leave, because I mean, 1:25:26.160 --> 1:25:29.800 they need only not only evacuated Kurdish civilians from northern Lepo, 1:25:29.880 --> 1:25:32.560 but I think they also evacuated the Shia population of 1:25:32.600 --> 1:25:35.240 Dubo Zakha. There were sometimes also that they were also 1:25:35.280 --> 1:25:38.400 evacuated to North East Ayria because they don't feel safe 1:25:38.439 --> 1:25:41.559 for their lives if those rebels take those areas. Yeah, 1:25:41.600 --> 1:25:43.120 and they are still there. They don't want to be 1:25:43.160 --> 1:25:46.920 captured by the rebels and used as hostages or so 1:25:47.040 --> 1:25:50.120 most likely they left with the Kurts to north east 1:25:50.200 --> 1:25:52.040 Syria and what will happen to them. They probably go 1:25:52.120 --> 1:25:53.960 to Iraq or to other areas in Syria. 1:25:54.560 --> 1:25:58.280 Yeah, you meet like in Northeast Aria, you meet sometimes 1:25:58.320 --> 1:26:03.160 like either former ragimes or people who have left regime areas, 1:26:03.240 --> 1:26:17.320 and like they've made their lives there. So now we 1:26:17.360 --> 1:26:19.280 have this situation right where, yeah, we have these two 1:26:19.320 --> 1:26:22.759 little islands, we'll just call them YPG for the ease 1:26:22.800 --> 1:26:26.519 of to not introduce another acronym, right of like a 1:26:26.760 --> 1:26:31.880 Kurdish armed folks in Aleppo. To complicate this further, and 1:26:32.160 --> 1:26:34.559 people will probably have seen this, I want to explain it. 1:26:35.080 --> 1:26:38.559 In the Rezor, we have a different situation, right, we 1:26:38.680 --> 1:26:43.080 have their the SDF attacking Iranian back Relicious and the regime. 1:26:43.400 --> 1:26:46.240 Do you feel comfortable explaining what's going on in Derisora 1:26:46.280 --> 1:26:47.480 where that's a different calculus. 1:26:47.920 --> 1:26:53.120 Yeah. So since former president or the incoming president Donald 1:26:53.120 --> 1:26:56.000 Trump when he pulled out troops from Syria in twenty 1:26:56.160 --> 1:26:59.479 nineteen when Turkey did an offensive against the Curves and 1:27:00.120 --> 1:27:03.439 Telabatasaain at that point in the US, they left, but 1:27:03.560 --> 1:27:06.040 then there was so much criticism from both Democrats and 1:27:06.120 --> 1:27:10.160 Republicans that he was forced to come back. So until now, 1:27:10.240 --> 1:27:13.920 there are still nine hundred Jewish troops in Detozor Province 1:27:14.080 --> 1:27:16.280 and in Husska Province, which is actually not a lot 1:27:16.360 --> 1:27:19.120 because if you look to for instance, South Korea, there 1:27:19.160 --> 1:27:22.280 are thousands of troops in South Korea and in other places. 1:27:22.360 --> 1:27:24.160 So it's not very a lot. But in the US 1:27:24.240 --> 1:27:27.000 discussions it's always discussed all we have troops in Syria, 1:27:27.040 --> 1:27:29.599 but actually compared to other countries, is not a very 1:27:29.600 --> 1:27:30.080 big number. 1:27:30.160 --> 1:27:32.919 Nine hundred people, no, not unto very small footprint. 1:27:33.360 --> 1:27:36.519 So they have the small footprint in Detzor and Hassaka 1:27:36.720 --> 1:27:40.120 and they basically they worked with the Kurtish led forces 1:27:40.240 --> 1:27:43.560 since the Battle of Kobani to basically defeat the Isiskelephate 1:27:43.640 --> 1:27:47.200 because it was a threat to European security and US security, 1:27:47.240 --> 1:27:49.519 and they were trying to carry out attacks in Europe, 1:27:49.520 --> 1:27:51.400 and there were many attacks in Europe and when civilians 1:27:51.400 --> 1:27:54.040 were killed, so ye had the anti Isis fight. This 1:27:54.120 --> 1:27:55.960 is one of the reasons actually why the Kurtish led 1:27:56.040 --> 1:27:58.920 forces they were forced to go to Detozor because it 1:27:59.080 --> 1:28:01.800 was their last beast on in twenty nineteen when they 1:28:02.600 --> 1:28:06.280 defeated the territorial Caliphate of Isis. So since there you 1:28:06.360 --> 1:28:08.519 have this the SEF there and they have their own 1:28:08.560 --> 1:28:12.240 administration in the Rezor and they have like local forces 1:28:12.360 --> 1:28:15.200 and Arabs that joined them in the fight against sizes. 1:28:15.680 --> 1:28:17.840 So what happened that in the last few years, in 1:28:17.920 --> 1:28:20.839 the last one or two years, there have been attempts 1:28:20.880 --> 1:28:24.080 by the Syrian government and Iranian back groups basically to 1:28:24.720 --> 1:28:28.080 recruit Arab tribes to fight against the SDF. So there 1:28:28.120 --> 1:28:31.760 have been several skirmishes and battles since that time. After 1:28:31.840 --> 1:28:35.200 also the SDF they arrested a commander of them that 1:28:35.560 --> 1:28:38.800 they thought he was like going to portrade them. So 1:28:38.920 --> 1:28:41.960 since that time, there were like several skirmishes between these 1:28:42.040 --> 1:28:45.679 milasies that are calling themselves the tribal army or something 1:28:45.720 --> 1:28:47.880 in that regard. And then you have the SCF, so 1:28:47.920 --> 1:28:50.120 you had like fights between the Ranian back groups and 1:28:50.160 --> 1:28:55.439 the SDF. And recently with all the changes in Syria, 1:28:55.760 --> 1:28:58.280 there were a number of villages around seven six villages 1:28:58.439 --> 1:29:01.799 that were actually Russian army was based in those villages. 1:29:01.880 --> 1:29:05.040 It was like the line sort of dividing the US 1:29:05.840 --> 1:29:08.479 back as theF forces and the Syrian government forces. And 1:29:08.520 --> 1:29:11.120 there's also a river, but those villages they were like 1:29:11.240 --> 1:29:13.120 in front of the river, so the river is sort 1:29:13.160 --> 1:29:17.000 of naturally dividing the areas between the SDF and the 1:29:17.040 --> 1:29:19.320 Syrian government. But there were like still a number of 1:29:19.400 --> 1:29:21.400 villages that were not on that line, and actually there 1:29:21.439 --> 1:29:25.280 were Russian troops based in that villages. Yeah, but with 1:29:25.479 --> 1:29:29.000 the whole crisis with Aleppo and the fight now between 1:29:29.120 --> 1:29:32.519 the HCS and the Syrian government in Hannah, the Russians 1:29:32.600 --> 1:29:35.000 they moved out from those villages. So those villages that 1:29:35.040 --> 1:29:39.439 actually are almost empty, there is nothing there. So during 1:29:39.520 --> 1:29:44.320 this situation they as UF they just moved in those 1:29:44.720 --> 1:29:47.040 villages and there was actually not so much fighting, although 1:29:47.080 --> 1:29:49.559 on the social media I see that all there's fighting 1:29:49.640 --> 1:29:52.720 and this kind of stuff. So there was some over 1:29:52.840 --> 1:29:56.160 these like the last one or two years, they have 1:29:56.240 --> 1:29:58.599 been heavy fighting between the SDF and Reign Impact Groups, 1:29:58.640 --> 1:30:01.080 but in these villages not so much because it was 1:30:01.200 --> 1:30:04.040 just anti villages and they just took them over and 1:30:04.160 --> 1:30:05.000 there was no one there. 1:30:06.200 --> 1:30:09.599 Yeah, Okay, So that leaves us with like I guess 1:30:10.280 --> 1:30:12.600 an e S getting a little bit larger in the 1:30:12.760 --> 1:30:14.719 south and then how smaller in the west. 1:30:15.520 --> 1:30:18.080 Yeah, very much faller in the west. And it's even 1:30:18.120 --> 1:30:20.719 not clear if they can keep their presence in Aleppo 1:30:20.880 --> 1:30:25.280 because I mean, Chef Marshut and Asia is now completely 1:30:25.320 --> 1:30:28.880 surrounded by the HDS, and it seems that the HDS 1:30:28.960 --> 1:30:31.240 they have been a little bit softer with the SDF 1:30:31.320 --> 1:30:34.160 and YPG than the SNA, because the SNA, I mean, 1:30:34.200 --> 1:30:37.800 they have their issues because they're also backed by the 1:30:37.880 --> 1:30:40.200 Turkish government and the Turkish government they always said their 1:30:40.240 --> 1:30:44.960 policy is basically to stop the SDF from treating autonomous area, 1:30:45.120 --> 1:30:47.240 and they also said the SDF is linked to the PIKK, 1:30:47.400 --> 1:30:49.680 although the SDF they deny links to the pi AK, 1:30:50.560 --> 1:30:53.760 although they don't deny their idological affiliation with the prison 1:30:53.840 --> 1:30:54.479 pick A k Here. 1:30:54.800 --> 1:30:55.000 Yeah. 1:30:55.479 --> 1:30:58.880 So Turkey always said that they are feeling threatened and 1:30:59.000 --> 1:31:02.519 they have always claim that attacks were planned on Turkey 1:31:02.680 --> 1:31:08.960 from northeast Asyria, from Rosava on on Turkey. Yeah, THEFF 1:31:09.000 --> 1:31:10.720 deny that. I think there was also there was not 1:31:10.840 --> 1:31:12.479 so a long time ago. There was also an attack 1:31:12.520 --> 1:31:14.800 in Ankara, and Turkey also claimed that it was a 1:31:14.920 --> 1:31:18.800 carry planned from British cities in Syria. Yeah, so that's 1:31:19.240 --> 1:31:21.240 that's like the situation. 1:31:21.840 --> 1:31:23.960 Yeah, they gives Yeah, they give us a pretty good 1:31:23.960 --> 1:31:37.280 summary of the situation. I think. So let's talk about 1:31:37.400 --> 1:31:40.400 HTS a bit, because I think you're going to see 1:31:41.120 --> 1:31:42.640 one of two things. Right when we talk about the 1:31:42.720 --> 1:31:45.759 SNA and HDS, A lot of outlets will just collapse 1:31:45.840 --> 1:31:48.759 them under the same descriptor they will just say Syrian rebels, 1:31:48.960 --> 1:31:52.160 and I think people will think of the original largely 1:31:52.280 --> 1:31:55.800 secular uprising in Syria in twenty eleven, and if they 1:31:55.800 --> 1:31:58.840 have not been paying attention, they'll realize that ISIS has 1:31:58.880 --> 1:31:59.479 been and gone. 1:31:59.600 --> 1:32:01.559 But they'll think, oh, these must be the same guys. 1:32:02.439 --> 1:32:04.880 These are not the same guys. But some of them 1:32:04.880 --> 1:32:06.400 may be the same guys who are originally part of 1:32:06.520 --> 1:32:09.920 Jiulani was originally sent there by a back daddy way 1:32:10.000 --> 1:32:12.360 back to be part of ISIS. But these are not 1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:16.160 the secular rebels who originally rose up in Syria. And 1:32:16.280 --> 1:32:20.480 so can you explain like HTS has this very interesting 1:32:20.760 --> 1:32:23.639 kind of legitimacy project right, like it's trying to build 1:32:23.680 --> 1:32:27.880 a pseudo state and present like a kind of gentler Jihadism. 1:32:27.960 --> 1:32:30.080 I don't know how to say it, but can you 1:32:30.120 --> 1:32:32.439 explain a little bit of this transformation of HDS and 1:32:32.520 --> 1:32:33.080 what you make of it. 1:32:33.720 --> 1:32:37.519 I mean, as you mentioned that Julani, the current leader 1:32:37.600 --> 1:32:40.760 of the HS, he was sent by at that time, 1:32:40.880 --> 1:32:44.879 I think it was al Kai the are the Islamic 1:32:44.960 --> 1:32:48.800 state of Iraq, and yeah, Syria basically to establish like 1:32:50.200 --> 1:32:51.760 but at that time there was no ISIS yet I 1:32:51.880 --> 1:32:56.840 think so so later basically he refused to budge allegiance 1:32:56.960 --> 1:32:59.519 and he basically did his own thing. He created Jabalta Nostra, 1:33:00.200 --> 1:33:04.920 which was the affiliate of al Qaeda. But then he 1:33:05.040 --> 1:33:09.280 decided to basically split from al Qaeda and he announced 1:33:09.400 --> 1:33:11.920 like these links to I think at the time that 1:33:12.080 --> 1:33:15.120 it was Zawahiri, but I'm not sure. So he basically 1:33:15.160 --> 1:33:17.000 split from al Qaeda, and you still have a split 1:33:17.080 --> 1:33:19.880 off group from al Qaeda in itlyp it's called h 1:33:19.960 --> 1:33:23.040 Russell Din, which they actually they had issues with. They 1:33:23.120 --> 1:33:28.960 had some problems with them. So HDS, although Isis territory 1:33:29.120 --> 1:33:34.640 was defeated twenty nineteen, the HTS or they basically with 1:33:34.800 --> 1:33:36.760 all the creates in Syria because I mean they have 1:33:36.880 --> 1:33:38.920 been fighting out for all the problems between the Sern 1:33:38.960 --> 1:33:42.640 government and different armed groups. They managed to sort of 1:33:42.760 --> 1:33:45.240 cementa crowd throw in the province of lip and they 1:33:45.320 --> 1:33:48.800 created their own little administration there. But despite that, they 1:33:48.880 --> 1:33:50.799 say that we don't have any links to al Qaeda. 1:33:50.840 --> 1:33:52.840 I mean they're still listed by for instance, the US 1:33:53.040 --> 1:33:54.360 as a terrorist organization. 1:33:54.760 --> 1:33:57.800 Yeah, there's a ten million dollar bounty on Julani still, right, 1:33:57.880 --> 1:34:00.360 they just never took it away from Yeah, I mean. 1:34:00.320 --> 1:34:05.000 It seems that the US doesn't believe this moderation idea 1:34:05.160 --> 1:34:08.439 that the HS tries to show them more moderately. But 1:34:08.640 --> 1:34:10.639 my idea of the HS, it's more like a sort 1:34:10.680 --> 1:34:13.160 of a lighter, softer version of ices. I mean, they're 1:34:13.240 --> 1:34:16.479 not like ices that they're gonna broadcast people being blown 1:34:16.600 --> 1:34:19.200 up or beheaded on the film screen. It's just that 1:34:19.320 --> 1:34:21.680 they do it in the back of the screen. I mean, 1:34:21.760 --> 1:34:26.040 there's people being executed according to the Islamic Shadia a lot, 1:34:26.080 --> 1:34:28.080 there are people being imprisoned. I mean, you also had 1:34:28.160 --> 1:34:31.519 protests actually it left against Jolani that they were actually 1:34:32.240 --> 1:34:36.320 opposed to the authoritarian rule. And I think then you 1:34:36.439 --> 1:34:40.120 have separate from the sort of the Islamic Islamics, which 1:34:40.160 --> 1:34:42.519 you can actually sort of compare to the Taliban. Yes, 1:34:42.560 --> 1:34:45.080 I think that's a good comparison, Yes, to the Taliban. 1:34:45.200 --> 1:34:47.639 And also I think Taliban they have some relationships actually 1:34:47.720 --> 1:34:50.680 the HS, and they also congratulated the HTS after they 1:34:50.720 --> 1:34:54.320 took control of Aleppo, so sort of it's like a 1:34:54.439 --> 1:34:57.799 Taliban rule, though of course Taliban is very different contacts 1:34:57.880 --> 1:35:02.040 related to Syria culture Afghan culture, so it's different of course, 1:35:02.080 --> 1:35:05.320 but they're both, yes, Islamist projects with a national project 1:35:05.400 --> 1:35:07.759 at the same time. So it's Islamist project for Syria 1:35:08.280 --> 1:35:11.439 and the Taliban have an Islamist project for Afghanistan, although 1:35:11.439 --> 1:35:15.160 you also have Pakistani Taliban et cetera. Yeah, so it's 1:35:15.240 --> 1:35:18.040 not like a transnational jihad, but you can call it 1:35:18.200 --> 1:35:19.479 like a national jihad maybe. 1:35:19.840 --> 1:35:22.200 Yeah, I think that's the crucial difference, right at least 1:35:22.240 --> 1:35:25.720 for the US, like that makes them kind of more 1:35:25.760 --> 1:35:29.760 amenable than than ISIS or even Al kaider Is that. Yeah, 1:35:29.800 --> 1:35:33.360 they have this nationally contained Jahadi vision, so. 1:35:33.439 --> 1:35:35.719 They don't do attacks in Europe or in the US. 1:35:36.439 --> 1:35:39.920 But of course there are several groups in ITLAB that 1:35:40.040 --> 1:35:42.640 are sort of falling under the control of HDS that 1:35:42.760 --> 1:35:46.960 are possibly could do external attacks, et cetera. And apart 1:35:47.000 --> 1:35:49.600 from that, you have the Syrian National Army. So the 1:35:49.680 --> 1:35:52.400 Syrian National Army, it's like a mix of different groups. 1:35:52.560 --> 1:35:54.360 As you mentioned in the beginning of the series Civil War, 1:35:54.439 --> 1:35:57.320 you had the Phisian Army, but then the Free Serrian Army. 1:35:57.360 --> 1:36:00.920 They split in several groups. I mean some like linked 1:36:00.960 --> 1:36:05.240 to Muslim brotherhoods, some linked to Turkmen groups, other groups 1:36:05.280 --> 1:36:08.760 secular groups et cetera. So all these groups that were 1:36:08.840 --> 1:36:14.200 basically fighting in different provinces, they were all gathered because Turkey. 1:36:14.280 --> 1:36:17.120 They did several Turkish military did several operations in twenty 1:36:17.280 --> 1:36:20.880 sixteen in northern Syria with the main aim is to 1:36:21.120 --> 1:36:24.760 stop the YPG from linking up the Kurdish enclaves on 1:36:24.840 --> 1:36:27.519 the border with Turkey. So they did I think the 1:36:27.560 --> 1:36:30.519 first one I was Euphraid Shield. Then they had I 1:36:30.640 --> 1:36:33.639 think Operation All of Brands in Afrin in twenty eighteen. 1:36:33.840 --> 1:36:35.679 Yeah, incredible names. 1:36:36.120 --> 1:36:38.800 Then I think the last operation account Recalled was in 1:36:38.840 --> 1:36:43.560 twenty nineteen when they took Telaviat and Serkania from the 1:36:43.640 --> 1:36:47.720 Kurtish Laud forces the YPGSDA. So they had these three operations. 1:36:47.960 --> 1:36:50.679 And these groups are sort of a mixed as I mentioned, 1:36:50.720 --> 1:36:55.040 a different groups with also different ideologies. Some are more 1:36:55.120 --> 1:36:59.599 Turkmen in nature, some of them are more Islamist in nature. 1:36:59.760 --> 1:37:03.599 Some there are like sort of leftovers from secular groups 1:37:03.640 --> 1:37:05.320 that used to FI. Some of them even they in 1:37:05.400 --> 1:37:07.600 the past they received support from the US from the 1:37:07.720 --> 1:37:09.840 CIA against the Seian regimes. So some of them they 1:37:10.000 --> 1:37:13.599 receive support and this is like a sort of umbrella 1:37:14.320 --> 1:37:18.160 of self organizations. So HDS is one group and they 1:37:18.240 --> 1:37:21.160 control also other groups in but it's one group. But 1:37:21.280 --> 1:37:24.200 the SNA there are like a lot of different groups, 1:37:24.600 --> 1:37:27.080 and they also have been fighting each other several times 1:37:27.160 --> 1:37:30.160 in areas and Turkish control. So this is very different 1:37:30.240 --> 1:37:33.320 and there are more sectarian in nature, let's say more. 1:37:34.160 --> 1:37:36.680 I mean, they have also been less under control than 1:37:36.720 --> 1:37:38.720 the HTS in the way that there have been a 1:37:38.760 --> 1:37:42.519 lot of kidnappings for ransom, a lot of like sexual 1:37:42.600 --> 1:37:46.360 violence against women and rape. This is all documented by 1:37:46.520 --> 1:37:50.560 self organizations, Juan organizations. They also have child soldiers, so 1:37:50.680 --> 1:37:53.240 they have different kinds of issues, and but they have 1:37:53.400 --> 1:37:56.439 been more accused of like more sort of gang style 1:37:56.560 --> 1:37:59.800 of activity, and that's why. Also some of them there 1:37:59.840 --> 1:38:02.240 were sanctioned by the US and also some of them 1:38:02.280 --> 1:38:05.920 they have integrated like former IIS fighters in their ranks. 1:38:06.240 --> 1:38:08.040 And you also have like first you have some groups 1:38:08.040 --> 1:38:11.639 that are frondos or the other are originally for instance 1:38:11.720 --> 1:38:14.640 from the area around Mato or Aza. Some of them 1:38:14.680 --> 1:38:17.680 they could they were displaced from Gutta, so a lot 1:38:17.760 --> 1:38:20.040 of them there also they came because the Serian government 1:38:20.080 --> 1:38:22.599 they advanced with Russian support, and then these groups were 1:38:22.640 --> 1:38:26.439 brought by buses to the areas under Turkish control. Yeah, 1:38:27.000 --> 1:38:30.080 so these areas became a sort of like maybe it's 1:38:30.080 --> 1:38:31.920 a bad word, or sort of a dumping ground for 1:38:32.120 --> 1:38:35.559 all these Srian rebel groups that were not completely defeated 1:38:35.640 --> 1:38:41.160 but displaced by Serrian government and offenses with the Russian support. 1:38:41.240 --> 1:38:43.799 So I mean before they were an Aleppo and homes 1:38:43.840 --> 1:38:45.960 and Hamma and Damascats in all this group they were 1:38:46.000 --> 1:38:49.720 moved with buses through agreements between around Turkey, Russia and 1:38:49.800 --> 1:38:54.639 Syria to northern Syria to it and now these groups 1:38:54.640 --> 1:38:57.880 they are coming back because they were never completely defeated. 1:38:57.920 --> 1:38:59.920 I mean they had their own administration, so the Syrian 1:39:00.400 --> 1:39:04.920 Army they fall under the Turkish back the Cerian opposition 1:39:05.400 --> 1:39:08.320 I think they call it the Serian National Coalition or 1:39:08.360 --> 1:39:10.280 in Arabic the ital AF, so they have their own 1:39:10.360 --> 1:39:14.080 interim government administration in THEIRS on the Turkish control, and 1:39:14.160 --> 1:39:17.160 then you have the Salvation government under the Ahso the 1:39:17.240 --> 1:39:21.120 are t two different administrations. And they also doesn't mean 1:39:21.720 --> 1:39:23.640 that they agree with so so just calling them the 1:39:23.760 --> 1:39:27.679 rebels it's a little bit like, yeah, it doesn't really 1:39:28.320 --> 1:39:31.040 doesn't fit to the reality. But of course you also 1:39:31.120 --> 1:39:34.639 have to deal with the fact that for media, if 1:39:34.680 --> 1:39:38.360 they want to explain complex situations to a general public, 1:39:38.439 --> 1:39:41.040 it's very difficult to just say, Okay, you have this acronym, 1:39:41.120 --> 1:39:42.920 and you have this acronym, and you have the white 1:39:43.400 --> 1:39:45.960 and the Ahs and the SNA. So people they will 1:39:46.000 --> 1:39:49.080 lose their interest. So that's why it always becomes sort 1:39:49.080 --> 1:39:50.600 of this black and white. So, oh, you have the 1:39:50.640 --> 1:39:53.000 Syrian insurgence and then you have the Serian government, and 1:39:53.080 --> 1:39:56.479 then it's already complex enough to also add Kurts to 1:39:56.600 --> 1:39:59.559 the mix. So they also, of course often the Turkish government. 1:39:59.560 --> 1:40:02.280 They got very angry that the media keeps calling the 1:40:02.400 --> 1:40:05.080 YPG the curse because oh, they don't represent the curse. 1:40:05.520 --> 1:40:07.360 But you can't say that with any group in Syria 1:40:07.560 --> 1:40:10.040 or anywhere in the world. I mean, I mean you 1:40:10.120 --> 1:40:12.439 have in Americans, you have different political parties. You have 1:40:12.520 --> 1:40:15.040 different parties in Syria, you have different parties in Turkey. 1:40:15.160 --> 1:40:18.680 So these groups don't represent all the Syrians, or all 1:40:18.720 --> 1:40:20.919 the Arabs, or all the Kurts or all the Allwais. 1:40:20.920 --> 1:40:24.200 There are always different political factions and that's what it 1:40:24.360 --> 1:40:26.559 makes so complicated in Syria because a lot of these 1:40:26.720 --> 1:40:30.200 based groups got fragmented. But actually with versus the support 1:40:30.280 --> 1:40:33.080 of Turkey, they actually united on the one umbrella, which 1:40:33.120 --> 1:40:35.639 is called the Syrian National Army. And then of course 1:40:35.680 --> 1:40:38.679 even on the Syrian government side, there's many different groups. 1:40:38.760 --> 1:40:41.120 I mean you have you have Iranian back armed groups, 1:40:41.200 --> 1:40:44.000 you have groups from Lebanon that are helping the Hezbola 1:40:44.040 --> 1:40:46.960 Albani says Bola. Then you have Iraqi Iranian back groups 1:40:46.960 --> 1:40:49.759 that are supporting Syrian government. Then you have also Shias 1:40:49.880 --> 1:40:52.800 that were recruited from Afghanistan. And then also in the 1:40:52.880 --> 1:40:55.280 Syrian government security structure, I mean, in the past there 1:40:55.400 --> 1:40:57.360 was no room for malicious but they have, for instance, 1:40:57.439 --> 1:40:59.960 the NDF, which is sort of like a Syrian govern 1:41:00.080 --> 1:41:03.360 want back militia, which even sometimes part with the Syrian 1:41:03.360 --> 1:41:06.040 government itself when they tried to become become more too 1:41:06.120 --> 1:41:08.479 much powerful, sort of like what you haven't Wagner in 1:41:08.600 --> 1:41:11.280 Russia that we try to challenge the Russian government and 1:41:11.360 --> 1:41:14.320 then they got third bailed. So it's like even with 1:41:14.439 --> 1:41:17.840 a certain sort of the forces back in the Cerian army, 1:41:17.960 --> 1:41:20.280 it's not like so simple. It's also not you have 1:41:20.439 --> 1:41:23.160 just a Serian army that's it. You have also different 1:41:23.240 --> 1:41:25.840 kinds of militia, some supported by Iran, some supported by 1:41:25.960 --> 1:41:28.719 Russia that are backing the Syrian government. 1:41:29.080 --> 1:41:33.160 Yeah, everyone wants I think Ukraine has really reinforced this. 1:41:33.479 --> 1:41:35.800 They want war to be like colors on a map 1:41:35.880 --> 1:41:38.040 and a front line, and the front line moves and 1:41:38.160 --> 1:41:41.240 that's you know, and that's just not how like oftentimes 1:41:41.280 --> 1:41:45.000 there's little lines on a map will be in reality 1:41:45.120 --> 1:41:47.479 it's people driving around and pick up trucks with dishcas 1:41:47.479 --> 1:41:49.560 in the back, wondering where the other guys are and 1:41:49.640 --> 1:41:50.160 what's going on. 1:41:50.320 --> 1:41:50.479 You know. 1:41:50.560 --> 1:41:52.880 It's not like Ukraine where you have trenches and people 1:41:52.920 --> 1:41:55.400 firing each other from trench lines to gradually move. And 1:41:56.400 --> 1:41:58.639 as much as it would be easy to have modelists, 1:41:58.720 --> 1:41:59.439 we we just don't. 1:41:59.520 --> 1:41:59.920 In Syria. 1:42:00.680 --> 1:42:03.080 Yeah, I mean, sorry, it's different because of it's more 1:42:03.280 --> 1:42:06.960 there are more religious and ethnic groups done in Ukraine. 1:42:06.960 --> 1:42:09.960 I mean ucrin Is you have the the Ukrainians and 1:42:10.000 --> 1:42:12.360 the Russians, and I mean you also have people speaking 1:42:12.439 --> 1:42:14.920 Russian in other areas of Ukraine. But it's where it's 1:42:15.000 --> 1:42:19.360 much more complex in in in Syria. Althoio obviously also 1:42:19.439 --> 1:42:22.160 have different groups fighting in Ukraine, but in Syria it's 1:42:22.160 --> 1:42:24.679 a bit more complex and it's difficult for the media 1:42:24.800 --> 1:42:28.240 to get a grip on that without like you know, 1:42:28.400 --> 1:42:30.439 like trying to also explain to a normal reader of 1:42:30.479 --> 1:42:33.080 what is going on in Syria. But also in general 1:42:33.160 --> 1:42:36.200 you have all this international media that are cutting down 1:42:36.320 --> 1:42:38.840 costs and they're closing there for and bureaus. So also 1:42:39.000 --> 1:42:42.840 i mean the money for like extensive reporting in Syria 1:42:42.920 --> 1:42:46.599 is also getting less or in general in internationally speaking, yes, 1:42:46.760 --> 1:42:48.400 And then you have another problem is that you have 1:42:48.600 --> 1:42:51.360 the problem of access in Syria. So if you are 1:42:52.439 --> 1:42:54.320 wanted to go to the same government area is very 1:42:54.320 --> 1:42:56.960 difficult because if you have reported in Syrian rebel areas, 1:42:57.040 --> 1:42:58.880 the same government is not going to give you a visa. 1:42:59.000 --> 1:43:01.599 You have to be like very l Serian government if 1:43:01.640 --> 1:43:05.439 you go to the areas under rebel control to be honest, like, 1:43:05.560 --> 1:43:08.679 it's very difficult for any journalists to go to HDS 1:43:08.800 --> 1:43:12.640 areas or the Eran National Army area. So even if 1:43:12.680 --> 1:43:15.680 a journalist wants to report positively about the rebels, it's 1:43:15.760 --> 1:43:19.240 very difficult. Then they have like a press adcutation in 1:43:19.400 --> 1:43:21.719 Turkey and they have to cross the boarders very complicated, 1:43:21.800 --> 1:43:25.559 so there's barely in very rare cases journalists going into 1:43:25.760 --> 1:43:31.120 northwest Aria and then with the Kurdish controlled areas if 1:43:31.160 --> 1:43:33.040 you can call them like that, like northeast here, it's 1:43:33.040 --> 1:43:36.719 a bit easier. I mean, there are people flying to Iraqi, 1:43:36.760 --> 1:43:39.120 Curtistan and then they can get like a permission from 1:43:39.120 --> 1:43:42.519 the Kurdish authorities. They're in Iraqi, Curtistan and then they 1:43:42.520 --> 1:43:44.479 can cross the border. So it's a bit easier. But 1:43:44.640 --> 1:43:48.880 the number of journals going there is very limited, and 1:43:49.040 --> 1:43:51.320 most of the interests actually of the Western media was 1:43:51.400 --> 1:43:53.479 not so much about the cern conflict. It was more 1:43:53.520 --> 1:43:58.360 about this western ISIS woman and ISIS fighters that were 1:43:58.600 --> 1:44:01.600 jailed or held in in Northeast Airia. So most of 1:44:01.640 --> 1:44:04.479 the focus of the Western media was most of the time, okay, 1:44:04.560 --> 1:44:06.960 what's happening in the whole camp, because you have thousands 1:44:07.000 --> 1:44:10.080 of ISIS families there or in versus in the prison. So, 1:44:10.200 --> 1:44:13.360 I mean, the American journals were interested in US doash fighters, 1:44:13.479 --> 1:44:16.759 and the Dutch were interested in Dutch ices families are fighters, 1:44:16.920 --> 1:44:19.280 and the same for many other countries. 1:44:20.240 --> 1:44:22.720 Yeah, the British media is terrible for that. They'll go 1:44:22.920 --> 1:44:25.560 to northeast Syria and then talk about Northeast Airia and 1:44:25.640 --> 1:44:27.839 this our whole just exists as kind of a bubble 1:44:28.040 --> 1:44:29.799 outside of context in that reporting. 1:44:30.240 --> 1:44:33.280 Yeah, they just talk about Shamima Begoon and she became 1:44:33.360 --> 1:44:36.360 sort of a celebrity in the UK. Yeah, although I 1:44:36.439 --> 1:44:39.360 think even on that actress nowadays it's like very limited 1:44:39.439 --> 1:44:41.880 because a lot of the zer countries in the UK 1:44:42.000 --> 1:44:44.400 they have their own domestic issues. So also in general, 1:44:44.439 --> 1:44:47.600 the interesting in Syria has gone down a lot, and 1:44:47.760 --> 1:44:50.240 I think also with this current conflict and Aleppo, it 1:44:50.280 --> 1:44:52.840 will get some intention in the media for a few days, 1:44:52.920 --> 1:44:55.479 but at some point it's gonna go down again, yes, 1:44:55.560 --> 1:44:58.439 of course, and maybe there will be conflicts and other 1:44:58.520 --> 1:45:00.519 parts of the world again. So I think at some 1:45:00.600 --> 1:45:03.080 point also this media attention because the media attention for 1:45:03.160 --> 1:45:07.639 Sir already was like very low, unless it's gonna affect 1:45:07.680 --> 1:45:10.200 Europe in a large extent because it could also create 1:45:10.320 --> 1:45:14.920 new waves of refugees trying to go to Europe. Yeah, 1:45:15.240 --> 1:45:17.640 there's many people that were displaced. Again. It was a 1:45:17.760 --> 1:45:20.519 very nice post on X by one Journeys from I 1:45:20.560 --> 1:45:23.439 think a Saudi outlet, and he was saying it's very 1:45:24.040 --> 1:45:26.719 sad to see. He was basically saying like at any moment, 1:45:26.800 --> 1:45:29.320 our people can be displaced at any time or can 1:45:29.400 --> 1:45:32.840 be displaced again. So that's like sort of the life 1:45:32.880 --> 1:45:36.240 of Syrians that live in these different like front lines, 1:45:36.439 --> 1:45:38.919 like anytime they can displace, like the people at Traffreine 1:45:38.960 --> 1:45:42.360 they were displaced in twenty eighteen and now twenty twenty 1:45:42.400 --> 1:45:45.439 four they were displaced again. And then you have people 1:45:45.560 --> 1:45:48.000 displaced by the Syrian government living in the houses of 1:45:48.120 --> 1:45:51.519 kurts in Afrine and they're also victims of this conflict. 1:45:51.640 --> 1:45:58.040 So yeah, so it's a very complicated situation, people being displaced, 1:45:58.120 --> 1:46:00.920 moving in the houses of displaced and displace living in 1:46:01.720 --> 1:46:04.320 other people's houses that are also displaced. So it's like 1:46:04.400 --> 1:46:07.600 a very cynical and sad situation. 1:46:07.760 --> 1:46:11.120 Yeah, and a very very difficult one for civilians. And certainly, 1:46:11.240 --> 1:46:14.280 like with the changing government in the US, it seems 1:46:14.360 --> 1:46:17.320 unlikely that we will be reaching out to help those 1:46:17.479 --> 1:46:20.960 those displaced civilians in the near future. And certainly we've 1:46:21.000 --> 1:46:23.840 seen a lot of Kurdish people who have been displaced 1:46:24.479 --> 1:46:27.519 either by Turkish aggression or who there's a whole other 1:46:27.600 --> 1:46:30.280 situation with the Kurdish areas in Turkey at the moment 1:46:30.400 --> 1:46:32.519 and their elections and such which we don't have time 1:46:32.560 --> 1:46:34.160 to go into but many of them have come to 1:46:34.200 --> 1:46:36.400 the US, and I've interviewed lots of them for this show, 1:46:36.439 --> 1:46:39.680 so we've I think people will be familiar with that, right, 1:46:39.680 --> 1:46:41.280 I mean, I think that's probably about all we have 1:46:41.360 --> 1:46:43.840 time for. But I wanted to offer you a chance. 1:46:44.000 --> 1:46:46.960 You have very good tweets, you have a very good 1:46:47.160 --> 1:46:49.920 understanding of the whole situation. You have your articles do 1:46:50.160 --> 1:46:53.280 an excellent job of making it understandable. So where can 1:46:53.320 --> 1:46:55.360 people find your writing and follow you? 1:46:55.760 --> 1:46:58.360 Well, I mean I you can find my tweets on 1:46:58.520 --> 1:47:03.040 my personal the page which is on my name Lady 1:47:03.080 --> 1:47:08.439 Melberg at x Vivan Wrockenberg. And also I write for 1:47:08.640 --> 1:47:11.639 different outlets and think tanks like first As, I write 1:47:11.680 --> 1:47:15.439 for mid at least I fig form from the Washington Institute. Also, 1:47:15.479 --> 1:47:18.920 I've been writing some pieces for Carnegie, So yeah, I've 1:47:18.960 --> 1:47:23.840 been if we're writing for several places on the current situation. Yeah, 1:47:23.920 --> 1:47:26.920 and sometimes Side to Interview, Side talked on BBC a 1:47:27.000 --> 1:47:32.040 few times on the situation and Aduchavella. So you can 1:47:32.120 --> 1:47:35.600 find my work on my Twitter profile. Always post my 1:47:35.720 --> 1:47:38.400 articles there and yeah, yep, that's great. 1:47:38.479 --> 1:47:41.280 Is there anything else you'd like to maybe suggest that 1:47:41.400 --> 1:47:43.400 people follow I think it could be really easy to 1:47:43.479 --> 1:47:46.679 get a lot of propaganda when it comes to two sirius, 1:47:46.680 --> 1:47:49.360 So I think you'd suggest that people kind of get 1:47:49.439 --> 1:47:51.320 their news from well. 1:47:51.439 --> 1:47:53.400 I mean, I think in general x is still like 1:47:53.479 --> 1:47:56.040 a good platform. It has been from the beginning of 1:47:56.080 --> 1:47:59.839 the series Civil War, although of course you have different accounts, 1:48:00.080 --> 1:48:03.439 different views supporting different factions. So it's always good to 1:48:04.400 --> 1:48:08.200 verify any videos posted, although it's like more difficult to 1:48:08.320 --> 1:48:10.960 very five videos than the pictures, but it's always good 1:48:11.000 --> 1:48:14.840 to verify locations and the background of people that are 1:48:15.840 --> 1:48:18.559 posting stuff. And then also I think it's very interesting 1:48:18.720 --> 1:48:20.880 and good to follow the maps of the Serian Civil 1:48:20.880 --> 1:48:23.280 War because you have several places where they publish maps 1:48:23.320 --> 1:48:25.800 of the civil war, so it's easier to follow it 1:48:25.960 --> 1:48:29.360 on the map than by tweets or posts on eggs. 1:48:30.080 --> 1:48:32.240 But I think in general, I mean, I mean, there 1:48:32.240 --> 1:48:35.360 are still like many international media that are trying to 1:48:35.479 --> 1:48:37.519 do reporting on Syria, but I think in general what 1:48:37.600 --> 1:48:40.720 I've seen it's becoming more limited, and it's mostly based on, 1:48:40.880 --> 1:48:43.640 for instance, the Serum Observretory for Human Rights. Yes, so 1:48:43.760 --> 1:48:46.599 the same observatory for human rights. It's a good source. 1:48:46.680 --> 1:48:49.960 They have a page in English and Arabic, although sometimes 1:48:50.000 --> 1:48:51.920 they are the English pages are a bit difficult to 1:48:51.960 --> 1:48:54.000 follow for people if they don't know the background of 1:48:54.040 --> 1:48:58.320 the conflict because it's more written for locals. Yeah, and 1:48:58.479 --> 1:49:03.719 then also you have fends. There's this civil site organization 1:49:03.840 --> 1:49:06.080 that focus on human rights abuses. I think it's called 1:49:06.439 --> 1:49:09.960 Seriance for Justice. They are very good reports on the situation, 1:49:10.120 --> 1:49:12.040 but it's a bit slow because it's not like twenty 1:49:12.080 --> 1:49:15.360 four hours. I mean it's like they're doing investigative reports 1:49:15.400 --> 1:49:20.760 on abuses by all sides of the ceriin civil conflict. Yeah, 1:49:21.400 --> 1:49:23.439 so Johtal I think it is very grud And also 1:49:23.560 --> 1:49:25.840 like telegram, I mean a lot of these different groups 1:49:25.880 --> 1:49:29.200 they have telegram channels where they post the latest updates, 1:49:29.240 --> 1:49:31.720 but of course all of them are quite biased, but 1:49:31.880 --> 1:49:34.560 bias you will get anyway in such a conflicts, in 1:49:34.680 --> 1:49:35.400 over the war, so. 1:49:36.080 --> 1:49:40.040 Yeah, everyone's biased to a degree. You will see dead 1:49:40.120 --> 1:49:44.400 people a lot if you go following telegram channels to 1:49:44.439 --> 1:49:46.559 the certain civil war. So if that's not something you'd 1:49:46.640 --> 1:49:49.479 like to see, that's probably not platform to be on. 1:49:50.640 --> 1:49:51.040 Big Death. 1:49:51.400 --> 1:49:52.760 Thank you so much for your time. I know it's 1:49:52.840 --> 1:49:54.920 late with you, and we'll let you get to sleep, 1:49:55.120 --> 1:49:57.519 and we do appreciate you joining us, and hopefully people 1:49:57.560 --> 1:49:59.960 will follow you on Twitter and and get good information 1:50:00.000 --> 1:50:00.719 about what's happening. 1:50:01.120 --> 1:50:23.719 Welcome Dick had Happened Here a podcast that has increasingly 1:50:23.800 --> 1:50:26.519 become about it happening in other places in the world. 1:50:27.040 --> 1:50:29.240 I'm your host via wog with me as caare. 1:50:29.439 --> 1:50:29.920 Hello. Hello. 1:50:30.640 --> 1:50:33.519 So if I'm remember incorrectly, and it is entirely possible, 1:50:33.520 --> 1:50:36.240 I have forgotten several coups that I've covered. I think 1:50:36.360 --> 1:50:38.120 this is the second coup that I've covered in six 1:50:38.240 --> 1:50:42.200 months that feels right. And you know, when we last 1:50:42.320 --> 1:50:44.360 left the dumbest coup I had ever seen in my 1:50:44.600 --> 1:50:47.720 entire life. We were in Bolivia and it was a 1:50:48.479 --> 1:50:53.320 truly spectacularly stupid coup. That coup ended with the army 1:50:53.439 --> 1:50:55.600 running away from a bunch of protesters who were just 1:50:55.760 --> 1:51:00.200 like yelling at them meanly, so that one had I 1:51:00.240 --> 1:51:02.439 thing I've never seen before, which is the army that 1:51:02.600 --> 1:51:04.639 the protesters were trying to bring something up to break 1:51:04.680 --> 1:51:06.760 a barricade, and the army ran away before they could 1:51:06.840 --> 1:51:09.599 get the like anti barricade thing up to the police barricade, 1:51:09.880 --> 1:51:12.800 So that was a disaster. Today we are talking about 1:51:13.200 --> 1:51:16.680 what I having now studied this like since it was 1:51:16.760 --> 1:51:20.880 since it started, I genuinely believe this somehow is an 1:51:21.000 --> 1:51:25.320 even stupider coup than the last. Like I you have 1:51:25.479 --> 1:51:28.320 to go back to like the CIA coup in Venezuela 1:51:28.640 --> 1:51:31.680 where everyone just got that like arrested by fishermen to 1:51:31.800 --> 1:51:34.840 find a stupider coup than this, it is, and even 1:51:34.920 --> 1:51:37.960 that one, like at least they like landed guys with guns. 1:51:38.360 --> 1:51:42.439 It was over so quick, like yeah, I think the 1:51:42.520 --> 1:51:46.000 official number is that the amount of time the martial 1:51:46.120 --> 1:51:48.920 law was technically in effect before the Assembly voted to 1:51:48.960 --> 1:51:50.960 get rid of it was one hundred and ninety minutes. 1:51:51.280 --> 1:51:53.559 Like people could have like slept through this coup, which 1:51:53.600 --> 1:51:55.519 is really funny, right, I. 1:51:55.640 --> 1:51:57.479 Made an executive decision, right, and I was like, I'm 1:51:57.520 --> 1:51:59.479 going to sleep in for one more hour, so I 1:51:59.560 --> 1:52:01.280 woke up at eight am instead of seven am, and 1:52:01.320 --> 1:52:03.800 I missed like half of it because I was just 1:52:03.920 --> 1:52:09.800 iceleft for one hour. So let's let's let's get into 1:52:09.880 --> 1:52:12.559 a bit about what happened here because you know, as 1:52:12.720 --> 1:52:15.400 as dumb as this looks now, because it failed this 1:52:16.200 --> 1:52:18.800 was for people who don't know there was a there 1:52:18.840 --> 1:52:21.600 was an attempted coup in South Korea. I don't know 1:52:21.680 --> 1:52:24.680 what day it's gonna be when I don't know what 1:52:24.760 --> 1:52:26.479 day it's gonna be in Korea when this comes out, 1:52:26.560 --> 1:52:32.839 because yeah, but on on Tuesday day, on our Tuesday 1:52:33.040 --> 1:52:36.000 in like the the it was I think ten thirty 1:52:36.760 --> 1:52:43.080 night there the hideously unpopular president of Korea, Sok yel yun, 1:52:43.560 --> 1:52:49.519 tried to declared martial law. Une is. His approval rating 1:52:49.920 --> 1:52:53.360 is like half of Joe Biden's approval rating. Like his 1:52:53.400 --> 1:52:58.400 approval rating is like twenty percent. He is staggeringly unpopular. 1:52:58.560 --> 1:53:00.880 He yeah, so you. And he won one election in 1:53:00.920 --> 1:53:05.400 twenty twenty two, very narrowly, in a race where neither 1:53:05.479 --> 1:53:10.120 of the candidates were particularly good. And he is a hardline, 1:53:10.240 --> 1:53:12.519 far right dipshit. He's you know, I mean, one of 1:53:12.560 --> 1:53:15.280 his big things. He has this unbelievably hardline in North Korea, 1:53:15.520 --> 1:53:19.400 which is not you know, doing anything productive at all. 1:53:20.040 --> 1:53:22.960 He's also you know, and this is like if you 1:53:22.960 --> 1:53:24.639 want to look at like, who are his twenty percent 1:53:24.880 --> 1:53:28.880 of supporters left? He was the guy of the unbelievably 1:53:29.040 --> 1:53:33.479 unhinged Korean misogynist movement. I guess you would call them, 1:53:34.200 --> 1:53:37.280 who are some of the worst people on earth. I mean, 1:53:37.479 --> 1:53:40.280 these are guys who will just There was a court 1:53:40.320 --> 1:53:43.880 case recently that decided that you can't just like beat 1:53:43.960 --> 1:53:45.840 someone up for having short hair because you think they're 1:53:45.840 --> 1:53:49.720 a feminist. Like, that's the kind of like unhinged misogynists 1:53:49.720 --> 1:53:53.800 that we're dealing with. That's that's Union's base. However, a 1:53:53.880 --> 1:53:55.840 couple of things have happened since then. One is that 1:53:55.960 --> 1:53:59.320 he's racked by like a thousand scandals everyone in his 1:53:59.439 --> 1:54:01.679 in his cabinet. He keeps getting impeached for doing corruption. 1:54:01.920 --> 1:54:04.559 There are so many different corruption scandals with him going 1:54:04.600 --> 1:54:07.160 on right now that I was considering like reading out 1:54:07.200 --> 1:54:08.519 a list of all of them as a joke, but 1:54:08.600 --> 1:54:11.960 it's too long. One of the important ones is that 1:54:12.160 --> 1:54:15.080 he was like basically doing like a pay for play 1:54:15.160 --> 1:54:18.280 thing to like fuck with his own party's primary process. 1:54:18.680 --> 1:54:22.280 Nice and this has pissed off basically his entire party, 1:54:22.760 --> 1:54:25.000 which is great, which is exactly the thing you want 1:54:25.040 --> 1:54:26.559 to be doing right before you auld take the stage 1:54:26.600 --> 1:54:30.320 of coup, is piss off your own political party. So 1:54:32.080 --> 1:54:36.320 all right, let's get to the coup. He major problem, 1:54:36.800 --> 1:54:38.800 one of his very major problems is that he hasn't 1:54:38.800 --> 1:54:41.200 been able to do anything basically since he's been in power. 1:54:41.200 --> 1:54:42.640 And the reason he hasn't been able to do anything 1:54:42.760 --> 1:54:44.840 is that his first sort of like off election was 1:54:44.920 --> 1:54:48.760 this unbelievably crushing electoral defeat for his party. The National Assembly, 1:54:48.840 --> 1:54:52.919 which is their like parliament, is just straight up controlled 1:54:53.040 --> 1:54:56.720 by the opposition Democratic like Liberal well, okay, let me 1:54:56.760 --> 1:54:59.320 be very cific about this is controlled by the opposition 1:54:59.440 --> 1:55:02.120 Democratic Party, who are the sort of like Korean Liberal 1:55:02.200 --> 1:55:06.840 Party and also a bunch of like minor allied opposition parties, 1:55:07.160 --> 1:55:11.040 and they keep on again impeaching all of his cabinet members, 1:55:11.040 --> 1:55:13.000 which is very funny. You know, he was trying to 1:55:13.000 --> 1:55:15.200 get a budget through and the budget got eviscerated and 1:55:15.240 --> 1:55:16.600 he hasn't been able to do it. So he's been 1:55:16.840 --> 1:55:20.400 very very angry and very frustrated, and so his plan 1:55:21.080 --> 1:55:23.560 apparently to deal with this was just to knock out 1:55:23.600 --> 1:55:24.560 the National Assembly. 1:55:25.000 --> 1:55:27.080 This is so funny because like, because of who I am, 1:55:27.480 --> 1:55:30.000 I was talking about this at the bar last night, 1:55:30.320 --> 1:55:33.920 just completely insunderable. And the one thing I couldn't put 1:55:33.920 --> 1:55:36.280 together is like what his exact motivation was besides like 1:55:36.440 --> 1:55:38.120 rooting out like political enemies. 1:55:38.200 --> 1:55:39.480 No one knows that he like. 1:55:39.840 --> 1:55:42.880 Labeled us like quote unquote anti communist, right, But let's 1:55:42.920 --> 1:55:45.120 like we were talking about, like how funny this all is, 1:55:45.160 --> 1:55:48.080 and like I still can't quite understand like why he 1:55:48.320 --> 1:55:48.600 did this. 1:55:48.960 --> 1:55:52.400 No one news like this this is Jenny Why, Like 1:55:52.480 --> 1:55:54.480 nobody has any idea why the fuck he thought this 1:55:54.560 --> 1:55:57.240 would work? Like the best thesis and we'll get to 1:55:57.280 --> 1:55:59.760 this a bit. The best thesis that I've seen is 1:55:59.800 --> 1:56:03.040 that he wanted to do this because he was pissed 1:56:03.080 --> 1:56:04.920 off with the fact that he hasn't literally been able 1:56:04.960 --> 1:56:07.480 to do anything his entire time in office because he's 1:56:07.480 --> 1:56:11.000 really mad at the National Assembly and also his own party, And. 1:56:11.080 --> 1:56:13.840 It's so funny to do that and then have that 1:56:14.040 --> 1:56:18.600 be underscored by them like be like, oh god, no, 1:56:18.960 --> 1:56:22.120 actually you can't do a coup. No, no, thank you, 1:56:23.560 --> 1:56:25.920 nice try legally you cannot koubi. 1:56:26.560 --> 1:56:29.560 Yeah, Like the I think the the semi serious part 1:56:29.600 --> 1:56:33.000 of this is that it doesn't make any sense to 1:56:33.120 --> 1:56:36.400 me how this could have been done if there also 1:56:36.640 --> 1:56:39.480 wasn't a faction of the Korean military that wanted this. Right, 1:56:39.960 --> 1:56:43.600 the Korean military is I mean, most of Korea's history 1:56:43.680 --> 1:56:45.480 still to this day, but I think I think it's 1:56:45.480 --> 1:56:47.120 still a majority of the amount of time South Korea 1:56:47.120 --> 1:56:50.000 has been in existence has been under military dictatorships of 1:56:50.040 --> 1:56:52.320 various kinds. There's been a whole bunch of them. They 1:56:52.400 --> 1:56:58.000 were staggeringly hideous. They killed unbelievable numbers of people, they 1:56:58.120 --> 1:57:00.560 tortured unbelievab numbers of people. They were full back by 1:57:00.600 --> 1:57:04.680 the United States, and the military has also always had 1:57:04.800 --> 1:57:09.000 this real chip on its shoulder about sort of liberal 1:57:09.080 --> 1:57:13.040 civilian politicians, and they have their version of like all 1:57:13.080 --> 1:57:15.200 of the conspiracy things that we have about how all 1:57:15.240 --> 1:57:18.360 democratic communists and how they're all like secretly et cetera, 1:57:18.400 --> 1:57:19.960 et cetera. So for this is like they're all secretly 1:57:20.000 --> 1:57:21.640 North Korea supporters, et cetera, et cetera. 1:57:21.880 --> 1:57:23.839 Right, And this is something I was also seeing yesterday 1:57:23.880 --> 1:57:26.960 people being like, oh wow, when did South Korea become 1:57:27.080 --> 1:57:29.760 North Korea? And they're like, oh my god, that's so 1:57:30.320 --> 1:57:34.440 that's like what a weird like orientalist racist comment. This 1:57:34.600 --> 1:57:37.200 is this is the most South Korean thing to ever happen. 1:57:37.640 --> 1:57:41.400 Yeah, this is like military coup and then military coup 1:57:41.520 --> 1:57:44.760 being overturned by protesters is the single most South Korean 1:57:44.800 --> 1:57:47.680 thing ever, right, Like, this is just how South Korean 1:57:47.760 --> 1:57:48.360 history has been. 1:57:48.520 --> 1:57:51.120 Having the fucking Assembly have to like break in in 1:57:51.200 --> 1:57:52.840 the middle of the night to vote. 1:57:53.120 --> 1:57:56.760 Yeah, it's so funny. It's just it's Yeah, we're gonna 1:57:56.760 --> 1:57:58.120 get to the actual details of it a second, but 1:57:58.160 --> 1:57:59.680 I want to I want to go back to what 1:57:59.880 --> 1:58:02.200 was actually in this declaration of martial law. So the 1:58:02.280 --> 1:58:04.640 Korean constitution does let you declare martial law, but you're 1:58:04.640 --> 1:58:05.960 only supposed to do it if there's like a war 1:58:06.080 --> 1:58:06.880 going on, or like. 1:58:06.960 --> 1:58:08.920 If there's like an actual crisis happening. 1:58:09.360 --> 1:58:12.040 Yeah, instead of just like I'm mad I can't pass 1:58:12.120 --> 1:58:14.400 my budget, which used to be what was happening here. 1:58:14.800 --> 1:58:17.080 You feel bad on a Monday night and you're like, oh, 1:58:17.080 --> 1:58:18.480 I guess i'llnucular martial law. 1:58:19.240 --> 1:58:22.880 Yeah, so okay, I'm gonna read some I'm gonna read 1:58:23.240 --> 1:58:25.800 a thing about what was going on here, about how unhinged. 1:58:25.840 --> 1:58:29.680 This was from Hawkura, which is a Korean media outlet. 1:58:30.280 --> 1:58:36.240 Quote Commander park Ensou announced quote martial law Command Proclamation 1:58:36.440 --> 1:58:38.360 number one, which, by the way, that's how you know 1:58:38.440 --> 1:58:40.760 you're dealing with people who have done this before. When 1:58:41.000 --> 1:58:43.960 when they start doing their like Decree number one, Decree 1:58:44.040 --> 1:58:46.560 number two. Oh yeah, that's that is an that is 1:58:46.600 --> 1:58:50.400 an experience the side of like very very experienced military 1:58:50.480 --> 1:58:54.440 coup people announced martial Law Command Proclamation number one based 1:58:54.440 --> 1:58:57.400 on the contents of prohibiting all political activities of the 1:58:57.480 --> 1:59:01.920 National Assembly and local assemblies. The acclaimation also included contents 1:59:01.960 --> 1:59:06.560 that controlled the press and publications and prohibited citizens assemblies 1:59:06.600 --> 1:59:09.640 and demonstrations, as well as strikes and workstop wages by workers. 1:59:10.200 --> 1:59:12.800 It is also notable that it included the content quote 1:59:12.880 --> 1:59:16.480 all medical personnel, including residents who are on a strike 1:59:16.560 --> 1:59:19.520 who have left the medical field must return to their 1:59:19.600 --> 1:59:22.680 original work within forty eight hours and work faithfully, and 1:59:22.800 --> 1:59:26.560 violations will be published in accordance with the Martial Law Act. Now, 1:59:26.960 --> 1:59:28.960 it's important to note here if the thing you are 1:59:29.000 --> 1:59:31.440 trying to do is impose martial law on Korea according 1:59:31.440 --> 1:59:33.840 to the Constitution, and obviously if you're in the state 1:59:33.840 --> 1:59:35.800 where you're opposing martial law, the law has kind of 1:59:35.800 --> 1:59:39.640 got out the window. But you can't get rid of 1:59:39.720 --> 1:59:42.000 the National Assembly. That is not a thing that marshial 1:59:42.080 --> 1:59:43.920 law allows you to do. With In fact, very explicitly 1:59:43.960 --> 1:59:45.920 in the Korean Constitution it says that like the National 1:59:45.960 --> 1:59:48.800 Assembly can't be gotten rid of by martial law. So 1:59:49.720 --> 1:59:53.800 this suggests to me that, yeah, this was something that 1:59:53.920 --> 1:59:55.600 was also being sort of spearheaded by parts of the 1:59:55.680 --> 1:59:59.520 Korean military. Because if you're not someone in the army 2:00:00.000 --> 2:00:03.120 who has their own interest in doing a coup, and 2:00:03.240 --> 2:00:07.640 someone asks you to just like overthrow the parliament, which 2:00:07.680 --> 2:00:09.880 is a thing that they're not allowed to do, you 2:00:10.080 --> 2:00:15.520 just say no, which which also makes the failure of 2:00:15.560 --> 2:00:17.920 this and how unbelievably stupidly it was all put together 2:00:18.000 --> 2:00:20.680 even more baffling, right, because if we assume that parts 2:00:20.680 --> 2:00:22.360 of the clicks in the army had to have been 2:00:22.400 --> 2:00:25.120 involved with this, and like we know and this only 2:00:25.280 --> 2:00:28.400 FPR talks about Un is like fucked right. There's no 2:00:28.480 --> 2:00:30.960 way he's holding onto power. He's screwed and he's gonna 2:00:30.960 --> 2:00:33.640 be That will make him the second Korean president in 2:00:34.000 --> 2:00:36.440 seven years to be ran out by mass protests, and 2:00:36.560 --> 2:00:39.240 dream the last set of politicians who were getting rid 2:00:39.240 --> 2:00:42.040 out by mass protests. The army actually started drafting like 2:00:42.160 --> 2:00:44.800 procedures for how they were going to do a military 2:00:44.840 --> 2:00:47.400 takeover to like to knock out the protests, and they 2:00:47.440 --> 2:00:49.680 never did it. But this is a this has been 2:00:49.720 --> 2:00:51.600 a thing that's been in the background for a long time, 2:00:51.680 --> 2:00:55.080 and the liberal the liberal establishment has been talking about 2:00:55.120 --> 2:00:57.680 how the right wants to bring back military rule for ages. 2:00:57.760 --> 2:00:59.880 This is a situation that in some ways is similar 2:00:59.920 --> 2:01:03.480 to Brazil, where the right has always been a sort 2:01:03.560 --> 2:01:06.680 of like, we like military rule kind of thing, but 2:01:06.800 --> 2:01:10.160 nobody actually seriously thought they would do it until they did. 2:01:11.080 --> 2:01:14.240 And you know, I'm gonna read one more thing before 2:01:14.240 --> 2:01:15.920 we go to ads here, which is he claimed that 2:01:15.960 --> 2:01:19.360 the National Assembly was quote the mastermind behind the downfall 2:01:19.400 --> 2:01:21.440 of the country, which, okay, that's pretty normal coup stuff, 2:01:22.120 --> 2:01:27.720 quote monsters and quote anti state forces seeking to overthrow 2:01:27.800 --> 2:01:32.080 the system. Now again he has just described the National Assembly, 2:01:32.880 --> 2:01:37.600 which is the Korean parliament as quote anti state forces 2:01:37.920 --> 2:01:40.920 seeking to overthrow the system, which now gives us the 2:01:41.000 --> 2:01:43.080 specter of the Anarco Parliament. 2:01:46.880 --> 2:01:49.080 I do wonder how much of this type of stuff 2:01:49.240 --> 2:01:52.080 is influenced, like by Trump's victory and like the enemy 2:01:52.120 --> 2:01:56.320 within rhetoric. I'm not sure how much influence Trump has, 2:01:57.360 --> 2:01:59.520 I know, guess a degree of influence like pop culture, 2:01:59.680 --> 2:02:03.360 why something in Japan. I'm not sure of his influenced 2:02:03.360 --> 2:02:05.680 in South Korea, but like in terms of just like geopolitics, 2:02:05.720 --> 2:02:07.400 like that's very similar to the type of like deep 2:02:07.480 --> 2:02:12.400 state enemy within rhetoric that like Trump used to success. Yeah, 2:02:12.880 --> 2:02:16.080 I not to like tie everything back to America. 2:02:15.960 --> 2:02:20.360 But like this like subversive shit is like stuff that 2:02:20.400 --> 2:02:23.440 you can trace back to like the original dictatorship. Right, 2:02:23.520 --> 2:02:25.840 Like this is a very very old, long running thing 2:02:26.040 --> 2:02:28.920 in Korean politics. Okay, we will get to the coup 2:02:29.160 --> 2:02:31.000 after I guess we get to a faction that didn't 2:02:31.080 --> 2:02:33.960 back the coup, which is the Korean capitalist class. 2:02:34.240 --> 2:02:36.680 So here are some ads salute to our comrades. 2:02:47.560 --> 2:02:50.040 We are back now. I will say it is true 2:02:50.280 --> 2:02:52.560 that this whole thing folded so quickly that we never 2:02:52.680 --> 2:02:55.720 really got a chance to see how the Korean capitalist 2:02:55.720 --> 2:02:57.480 class would have reacted, other than the fact that all 2:02:57.520 --> 2:02:59.560 of the newspapers immediately were like, what the fuck are 2:02:59.600 --> 2:03:04.640 you doing? So it's also worth noting if you're trying 2:03:04.680 --> 2:03:07.680 to do a coup, right, there are four things that 2:03:07.760 --> 2:03:09.680 you need to do. You need to arrest your senior 2:03:09.720 --> 2:03:13.000 opposition political figures. You need to seize the radio stations 2:03:13.120 --> 2:03:16.520 that this includes you know today, like newspapers, TV stations. 2:03:16.160 --> 2:03:19.120 Like podcasts obviously, you know streamers. 2:03:18.720 --> 2:03:18.880 You know. 2:03:19.000 --> 2:03:22.080 Yeah, yeah, we're a vital part of the media infrastructure 2:03:22.120 --> 2:03:22.879 that must be controlled. 2:03:23.080 --> 2:03:25.080 I show Speed or whatever his name is, he has 2:03:25.120 --> 2:03:27.240 to come under your control. You gotta get Aiden Ross 2:03:27.360 --> 2:03:29.600 locked into cage fast fast. 2:03:29.720 --> 2:03:32.440 I think Speed would have fucking gone just gone sicko 2:03:32.560 --> 2:03:34.840 mode on their special forces guys, given how just like 2:03:35.320 --> 2:03:38.480 unbelievably their asses got kicked. You know, you have to 2:03:38.520 --> 2:03:39.960 seize the airports and you have to take the major 2:03:40.000 --> 2:03:41.920 government buildings. Right, So how many of these did this 2:03:42.040 --> 2:03:45.240 coup manage to do? They did like zero, right, They 2:03:45.840 --> 2:03:48.879 sort of kind of took most of the National Assembly. 2:03:49.160 --> 2:03:51.400 Yeah, but that last and what like an hour? 2:03:52.520 --> 2:03:54.560 Yeah, yeah, Well we'll get to that in a second. 2:03:54.880 --> 2:03:57.560 So it seems like what we have reporting from the 2:03:57.840 --> 2:04:02.839 Democratic Party of Korea. They claim that the military attempted 2:04:02.880 --> 2:04:05.800 to arrest the head of the National Assembly, the head 2:04:05.800 --> 2:04:08.840 of the Democratic Party, and then also the head of 2:04:08.920 --> 2:04:11.760 the PPP, which is People's Power Party, which is Yun's 2:04:11.840 --> 2:04:14.280 own party. So he tried to have the head of 2:04:14.320 --> 2:04:19.000 his own party arrested by Korean special forces, and it 2:04:19.080 --> 2:04:20.960 didn't work because none of them were at their offices. 2:04:21.920 --> 2:04:25.760 It's so funny because they kept putting out they think 2:04:25.840 --> 2:04:28.520 arrest worts for like, but like the opposition party his 2:04:28.680 --> 2:04:31.520 own party, and the Assembly was like, oh. 2:04:33.400 --> 2:04:37.120 Tryser And you know, they did legitimately shut down some 2:04:37.240 --> 2:04:38.800 news outlets and that was it. You know, that was 2:04:38.880 --> 2:04:39.560 sort of genuine. 2:04:39.680 --> 2:04:43.360 I saw reporters like fucking like fighting with the military 2:04:43.440 --> 2:04:44.160 in the streets. 2:04:44.320 --> 2:04:48.040 It was sick. Yeah, well, this is why this is 2:04:48.080 --> 2:04:50.840 such a bad idea, right, Like, in the words of 2:04:50.880 --> 2:04:54.600 a football commentator whose name I'm forgetting right now, who 2:04:54.640 --> 2:04:58.680 had the greatest cast light at all of human history. Oh, no, disaster, 2:04:59.280 --> 2:05:04.360 what a idea like? I okay, just just from the 2:05:04.480 --> 2:05:06.760 logistics of this, right, pretty up on the list of 2:05:06.840 --> 2:05:08.600 countries you don't want to try to hold by by 2:05:08.640 --> 2:05:10.920 military force is South Korea. And there's a lot of 2:05:10.960 --> 2:05:13.120 reasons for this one. You know, you're dealing with like 2:05:13.320 --> 2:05:14.960 one of the largest GUESTI bases in the world. The 2:05:15.040 --> 2:05:17.720 other thing is like, this is an entire country of 2:05:17.840 --> 2:05:22.919 protesters and capitalist protesters, very scary. Well, but like everyone 2:05:23.000 --> 2:05:25.560 fucking like fucking everyone in this country either like was 2:05:25.640 --> 2:05:28.760 a protester when they were a fucking kid or was 2:05:28.840 --> 2:05:32.200 one now to the extent we're like liberal members of 2:05:32.400 --> 2:05:35.720 parliament know how to build barricades. It's so cool. This 2:05:35.880 --> 2:05:38.560 actually matter enormously, like like fucking guys who are just 2:05:38.640 --> 2:05:41.080 like random aids where and there are videos of this 2:05:41.280 --> 2:05:43.880 of the of like just like random staffer guys like 2:05:44.000 --> 2:05:46.920 holding barricades from like against like paratrooper units and like 2:05:47.240 --> 2:05:51.000 like just random staffers like shooting fire extinguishers at army 2:05:51.040 --> 2:05:53.840 special forces units. Like can you fucking imagine that shit 2:05:53.840 --> 2:05:54.000 in the. 2:05:54.040 --> 2:05:55.840 US, Like it was very cool to see. 2:05:56.280 --> 2:05:58.080 Yeah, like this is this is why this is such 2:05:58.080 --> 2:06:00.640 a terrible idea because everyone has a whole bunch of 2:06:00.720 --> 2:06:03.160 institutional memory and experience of this, right, not just because 2:06:03.520 --> 2:06:05.600 you know the Democratic Party, right, which is which is 2:06:05.640 --> 2:06:09.400 the party that this was largely targeted at most of 2:06:09.560 --> 2:06:11.720 Like the elder statesmen of this party used to be 2:06:11.840 --> 2:06:14.960 Korean student protesters, Like they are all veterans of the 2:06:15.040 --> 2:06:17.800 campaigns that brought down the military government. And it's not 2:06:18.000 --> 2:06:19.200 just that there's like a there's a memory of it. 2:06:19.280 --> 2:06:21.200 It's like there are a protests outside the National Assembly 2:06:21.240 --> 2:06:23.360 like every fucking day, right, Like again, the last time 2:06:23.400 --> 2:06:25.080 they brought down a prime minister with maths protest was 2:06:25.120 --> 2:06:27.760 seven years ago. This is a whole country of people 2:06:27.880 --> 2:06:31.080 who know how to do this shit, and for some 2:06:31.240 --> 2:06:34.400 reason these idiots were like, we have no popular support whatsoever, 2:06:34.680 --> 2:06:36.840 and we're just gonna be able to like roll over 2:06:37.000 --> 2:06:39.800 this entire country in one night. So I think the 2:06:39.880 --> 2:06:43.080 plan was to hold the National Assembly and prevent the 2:06:43.160 --> 2:06:45.680 National Assembly from convening so that there was nobody who 2:06:45.720 --> 2:06:48.360 could override the martial law order. 2:06:48.480 --> 2:06:50.560 Yeah that sounds pretty basic, right, just to keep them 2:06:50.560 --> 2:06:52.560 out of the building so that they can't do anything. 2:06:52.640 --> 2:06:52.840 Yeah. 2:06:52.960 --> 2:06:56.120 So they failed, easy, right? Oh oh no, they failed? Yeah. 2:06:56.200 --> 2:06:57.960 So so the thing that the problem here again is 2:06:58.000 --> 2:06:59.960 that you're dealing with an entire country that has been 2:07:00.120 --> 2:07:01.880 doing this for fucking ages. Right, So they did this 2:07:02.000 --> 2:07:04.320 at like ten thirty at night, and immediately what happens 2:07:04.360 --> 2:07:06.160 is just like a bunch of drug guys in bars 2:07:06.760 --> 2:07:09.280 like show up to the National Assembly. Like the moment 2:07:09.360 --> 2:07:11.520 I knew it was doomed, was there. I was reading 2:07:11.560 --> 2:07:13.080 in the New York Times they had an interview with 2:07:13.120 --> 2:07:14.880 this guy who showed up. This is again the part 2:07:14.920 --> 2:07:16.800 I'm I'm talking about this being a country of protesters. 2:07:17.160 --> 2:07:20.160 Like these guys aren't like leftists like revolutionaries, right, this 2:07:20.360 --> 2:07:21.680 Like one of the guys they were talking to the 2:07:22.080 --> 2:07:23.880 New York Times, like their journals on the ground, pulls 2:07:23.880 --> 2:07:26.320 over a random guy and he's a sixty year old 2:07:26.360 --> 2:07:29.800 real estate agent. Right, this is a guy who should 2:07:29.920 --> 2:07:33.520 be like, this should be the base of a military coup. Right. 2:07:33.720 --> 2:07:35.480 This is a sixty year old man who doesn't real 2:07:35.600 --> 2:07:38.640 estate it and he heard about this and immediately his 2:07:38.960 --> 2:07:41.480 life was quote, this is the end. So he drove 2:07:41.560 --> 2:07:44.160 for a fucking hour at like one in the morning 2:07:44.240 --> 2:07:45.960 to show up to the National Assembly to go fight 2:07:46.040 --> 2:07:47.920 the army. There was just no way this is good 2:07:47.920 --> 2:07:50.000 to work. And so people, even though it's really late up, 2:07:50.000 --> 2:07:52.640 people just flood out. And suddenly there's all of these 2:07:52.680 --> 2:07:55.000 protesters in front of the National Assembly and they're doing 2:07:55.080 --> 2:07:58.960 shit like there's this unbelievable video of this soldier like 2:07:59.080 --> 2:08:01.760 tries to take a guy's phone, and this guy has 2:08:01.800 --> 2:08:03.720 some kind of e martial arts trading. It just grabs 2:08:03.760 --> 2:08:05.560 his arm and just spins him around. 2:08:05.520 --> 2:08:06.280 The coolest thing. 2:08:07.280 --> 2:08:09.200 And the guy just like I'm just like, well, fuck, 2:08:09.200 --> 2:08:11.760 guess I'm not dealing with this ship and there was such. 2:08:11.680 --> 2:08:16.760 Like a resignation. Yeah, in the movements of that military 2:08:16.840 --> 2:08:21.480 officer be like it's just like, well, shit, we could 2:08:21.600 --> 2:08:26.080 keep fighting, but why like yeah, what's the point? Like 2:08:27.320 --> 2:08:30.200 why am I out here? It's midnight? I should be 2:08:30.360 --> 2:08:31.800 in bed. What's going on? 2:08:32.280 --> 2:08:33.880 And like and part of this too also, and this 2:08:34.000 --> 2:08:36.120 is this is a smart decision by someone, is that 2:08:36.200 --> 2:08:39.000 these guys weren't issued with actual bullets. So when I 2:08:39.040 --> 2:08:41.240 say these guys and this is this is the you know, 2:08:41.360 --> 2:08:43.960 the actual loving part about this is that these were 2:08:44.360 --> 2:08:49.720 largely Korean paratrooper units, and Korean paratrooper units are some 2:08:49.920 --> 2:08:54.840 of the most unhinged like fascist troops in the entire world. Like, 2:08:55.160 --> 2:08:57.520 these are people who didn't just fight in the Korean War. 2:08:57.600 --> 2:08:59.720 A bunch of these guys fought in Vietnam. Like on 2:08:59.800 --> 2:09:03.240 the American side. They are notorious as the people who 2:09:03.320 --> 2:09:05.520 the military has always used to sort of put down protests. 2:09:06.040 --> 2:09:08.240 One of the most famous examples of this is the 2:09:08.320 --> 2:09:11.440 Guandra Uprising in nineteen eighty, which was a pro democracy 2:09:11.520 --> 2:09:15.920 uprising after one of the various stages of insane military 2:09:16.000 --> 2:09:18.000 coup stuff was going on in South Korea in nineteen 2:09:18.040 --> 2:09:21.080 eighty and there's a large democratic uprising from sort of 2:09:21.080 --> 2:09:23.400 students and workers. There's a bunch of strikes. They take 2:09:23.440 --> 2:09:25.800 this area and the paratroopers come to shoot them all. 2:09:26.000 --> 2:09:28.560 They killed probably several thousand people, and a lot of 2:09:28.640 --> 2:09:30.960 the paratrooper units that were deployed to take the National 2:09:31.000 --> 2:09:33.600 Assembly were literally the same units that were sent into 2:09:33.640 --> 2:09:38.120 crushes uprising in nineteen eighty, So this was in some 2:09:38.320 --> 2:09:42.440 ways very very scary, right because these are like, again, 2:09:42.840 --> 2:09:45.040 these are the units that were sent in to shoot 2:09:45.080 --> 2:09:47.040 a bunch of fucking civilians in the streets in order 2:09:47.080 --> 2:09:52.920 to keep military rule intact. However, this time these para 2:09:53.040 --> 2:09:57.000 units just got their shthanded to them. So it's sort 2:09:57.040 --> 2:09:59.400 of unclear exactly what was going on in the National Assembly. 2:09:59.480 --> 2:10:01.560 It seemed like some National semi members were still there, 2:10:02.400 --> 2:10:05.560 but somehow, and we don't part of how this happened, 2:10:05.560 --> 2:10:07.800 which is protesters were just there's a video of I 2:10:07.840 --> 2:10:10.320 think it was like the opposition leader. The protesters like 2:10:10.720 --> 2:10:13.400 like pushed him up over a fence so he could 2:10:13.440 --> 2:10:17.280 break into the National Assembly and get past the military barricades. 2:10:18.760 --> 2:10:21.920 Like like one hundred and ninety lawmakers somehow like got 2:10:22.000 --> 2:10:24.440 into the National Assembly and barricaded themselves in. 2:10:26.240 --> 2:10:29.680 This also shows a level of like dedication. Yeah that 2:10:29.840 --> 2:10:33.200 I suspect none of none of our lovemakers would do. No, 2:10:33.760 --> 2:10:36.879 they're not gonna they're not gonna break into the capital 2:10:36.920 --> 2:10:38.880 when it's surrounded by military guard. 2:10:39.560 --> 2:10:41.680 You know, we had this with January sixth, right, and 2:10:41.760 --> 2:10:44.120 like what what what did our congress people do dream 2:10:44.200 --> 2:10:45.880 January sixth they all ran and hid. 2:10:46.200 --> 2:10:48.520 I mean these are slightly different circumstances. 2:10:48.960 --> 2:10:51.200 Yeah, this is true, but like but like you know, okay, 2:10:51.240 --> 2:10:53.880 so if if you look at there's been a lot 2:10:53.920 --> 2:10:56.480 of shit talking of the of the American people's willingness 2:10:56.560 --> 2:10:59.640 to protest and stuff in the light of like watching 2:10:59.680 --> 2:11:02.480 the Career, and people overturned this coup in like three hours. 2:11:02.960 --> 2:11:05.840 And I will point out that in twenty twenty, this 2:11:06.000 --> 2:11:09.760 was this was literally four years ago. Like we put 2:11:09.840 --> 2:11:11.880 the President of the United States in a bunker. People 2:11:11.960 --> 2:11:14.000 fought the Secret Service hand to hand outside the gates 2:11:14.040 --> 2:11:16.320 of the White House. Like the police in this country 2:11:16.400 --> 2:11:18.960 lost control of the centers of several major American cities. 2:11:19.160 --> 2:11:23.520 So like Americans will fight, right, but can you imagine 2:11:24.040 --> 2:11:28.120 like Nancy Pelosi or like like Chuck Schumer or whoever 2:11:28.160 --> 2:11:30.400 it was around like trying to set up, like setting 2:11:30.480 --> 2:11:33.960 up barricades to stop the army from like marching into 2:11:34.080 --> 2:11:38.240 Like no, it's unreal. And these were good barricades too. 2:11:38.400 --> 2:11:40.520 These were very well constructive barricades. These are barricades that 2:11:40.680 --> 2:11:43.080 like are better than a lot of barricades I've seen 2:11:43.080 --> 2:11:45.680 set up by protesters over the like in the US 2:11:45.760 --> 2:11:48.480 over the last few years. And the consequence of this 2:11:48.680 --> 2:11:51.840 was that the National Assembly just voted for the coup 2:11:51.880 --> 2:11:54.840 to be over, because they can just vote to say 2:11:54.960 --> 2:11:58.920 that the martial laws over. And then the military kind 2:11:58.920 --> 2:12:01.240 of was just like, well shit and just kind of left. 2:12:01.360 --> 2:12:04.200 I mean they waited in the wings for a little bit. Yeah, 2:12:04.760 --> 2:12:07.280 and we were all curious to see what the president 2:12:07.440 --> 2:12:11.040 was gonna do after this. Emily was like, uh, nice, 2:12:11.080 --> 2:12:13.840 tryser and I guess we will talk about that after 2:12:14.440 --> 2:12:16.360 another message from these ads. 2:12:25.920 --> 2:12:28.520 And we are so back. We are so back. It 2:12:28.600 --> 2:12:31.520 has never been more over for President UNI. That is true, 2:12:31.600 --> 2:12:34.200 it has never been more over. So part of the 2:12:34.280 --> 2:12:37.680 weird part about this is that you just like vanishes 2:12:37.760 --> 2:12:40.720 for most of this, Like we don't hear from him 2:12:40.800 --> 2:12:43.800 until like the morning when he announces that he's going 2:12:43.880 --> 2:12:46.040 to roll back the martial law thing, but he needs 2:12:46.040 --> 2:12:47.960 his cabinet there to do the vote, so he's gonna 2:12:47.960 --> 2:12:50.840 do it later. I don't know. But the troops have 2:12:50.880 --> 2:12:53.560 already all pulled out by this point and like they 2:12:53.640 --> 2:12:56.360 go back to their barracks after the National Assembly is 2:12:56.400 --> 2:12:58.400 like what the fuck. So there's been a lot of 2:12:58.440 --> 2:13:01.240 haymade about how one hundred and ninety members of the 2:13:01.280 --> 2:13:03.400 National Assembly showed up and every single one of them 2:13:03.480 --> 2:13:06.640 voted to end martial law and like that's cool. But 2:13:06.680 --> 2:13:08.360 I've seen a lot of people be like, oh, look 2:13:08.400 --> 2:13:11.560 at how democratic the PPP, which is the right wing 2:13:11.640 --> 2:13:13.200 party that UN's a part of, is from, like they 2:13:13.320 --> 2:13:15.200 voted to do it, but like, okay, yes it was. 2:13:15.240 --> 2:13:17.360 This was a unanimous vote. I need everyone to understand 2:13:17.360 --> 2:13:19.360 that there were three hundred members of the National Assembly 2:13:19.440 --> 2:13:21.040 and that means that means one hundred and ten of 2:13:21.080 --> 2:13:23.400 them didn't show up, and that of the people who 2:13:23.440 --> 2:13:25.960 showed up, there were only eighteen members. Yeah, of the 2:13:26.000 --> 2:13:28.800 PPP who showed up to this now, and part of that, 2:13:29.000 --> 2:13:31.320 like it is true, it is. It was a bit 2:13:31.400 --> 2:13:33.840 difficult to get through the fucking military occupation fit with 2:13:33.880 --> 2:13:36.880 paratroopers but everyone else you have managed to, so you know, 2:13:37.360 --> 2:13:39.400 and UN's own party also just hates him because again, 2:13:39.440 --> 2:13:41.320 like one of the scandals he's going down for is 2:13:41.400 --> 2:13:44.680 like fucking with their primaries and like getting a bunch 2:13:44.720 --> 2:13:47.240 of people who had safe seats, like losing their safe 2:13:47.320 --> 2:13:49.680 seats so he could put his guys in. And again 2:13:49.720 --> 2:13:52.240 he also tried to arrest the head of his own parties. 2:13:52.280 --> 2:13:55.040 So like, these people don't like him for very immediate 2:13:55.080 --> 2:13:57.040 person or reason is not because the PPP is somehow 2:13:57.080 --> 2:13:59.560 like a party more committed to democracy than the Republican 2:13:59.600 --> 2:14:03.400 Party is here like no, these people all suck, like, 2:14:04.200 --> 2:14:08.240 oh god, But this leaves us with the aftermath of this, 2:14:09.080 --> 2:14:12.440 and the first thing I want to kind of go 2:14:12.720 --> 2:14:16.760 over is what the fuck were they doing? Because again, 2:14:16.880 --> 2:14:18.800 if you look at the sequence of events here, right, 2:14:19.440 --> 2:14:23.560 there's this coup, right, the martial law goes into effect, 2:14:23.960 --> 2:14:27.960 the army backs it and tries to occupy the National Assembly, 2:14:28.040 --> 2:14:31.040 but then the National Assembly votes that the martial law 2:14:31.160 --> 2:14:35.280 is over, and then the army just leaves. Now what 2:14:36.480 --> 2:14:38.040 if you go back to remembering when I was talking 2:14:38.040 --> 2:14:40.920 about the beginning of this, right, seizing the National Assembly 2:14:41.040 --> 2:14:42.640 is not something you are allowed to do in a 2:14:43.520 --> 2:14:46.880 state of emergency or a martial law in position, right, 2:14:46.960 --> 2:14:50.280 that's something explicitly the army is banned from doing. They 2:14:50.360 --> 2:14:54.040 did it anyways, which means that like probably like a 2:14:54.120 --> 2:14:56.520 bunch of generals are also going to prison for this. 2:14:57.440 --> 2:14:59.840 But then they also immediately back down when it be 2:15:00.040 --> 2:15:02.840 came clear that you know, they were gonna there was 2:15:02.920 --> 2:15:04.400 going to be resistance, and that if they were going 2:15:04.440 --> 2:15:05.800 to try to stop this, they were either wouldn't have 2:15:05.840 --> 2:15:07.600 to beat the shit out of or just like actually 2:15:07.680 --> 2:15:10.440 shoot a bunch of lawmakers in the National Assembly. And 2:15:10.680 --> 2:15:13.920 I understand that that's a bad idea, and I get 2:15:14.000 --> 2:15:15.880 why these people didn't want to do that, just like 2:15:15.960 --> 2:15:17.800 from their own things politically, But if if you weren't 2:15:17.800 --> 2:15:19.280 willing to do that, why did you do this in 2:15:19.320 --> 2:15:22.640 the first place? Like, how did you think this was 2:15:22.680 --> 2:15:25.040 gonna go? The only thing I could think of was 2:15:25.040 --> 2:15:27.200 that they thought they could just should have. I thought 2:15:27.240 --> 2:15:29.080 it was ten thirty at night, we can just shock 2:15:29.120 --> 2:15:31.840 and awe everyone. Yeah, we'll just roll them over. But like, 2:15:32.600 --> 2:15:34.280 do you know what country you were in? 2:15:34.680 --> 2:15:37.320 I mean, yeah, it's a massivest calculation. That's what makes 2:15:37.400 --> 2:15:39.000 this the worst Cup since Bolivia. 2:15:39.360 --> 2:15:40.480 I think it's worse in Bolivia. 2:15:40.680 --> 2:15:44.480 Oh, absolutely, because like it shows a complete like disconnection 2:15:44.640 --> 2:15:46.280 from understanding the country that you're in. 2:15:46.400 --> 2:15:47.080 What were they doing? 2:15:47.560 --> 2:15:50.160 Yeah, like the willingness of the people to like get 2:15:50.280 --> 2:15:52.800 mobilized at ten thirty, yeah, and the willingness of your 2:15:52.800 --> 2:15:56.360 own lawmakers, uh, to try to put like some level 2:15:56.400 --> 2:15:59.160 of resistance to this, even if it's not like physically 2:15:59.240 --> 2:16:01.440 fighting the art, which is something that I ended up doing, 2:16:01.600 --> 2:16:07.440 which they did. They fought the army, Like, ah, what 2:16:07.560 --> 2:16:07.960 a world. 2:16:08.080 --> 2:16:11.560 And also with Bolivia too, you know there's other Okay, 2:16:11.560 --> 2:16:13.080 so a with Olivia, there's a lot of debate over 2:16:13.120 --> 2:16:15.760 where that coup was real or not. I lean towards 2:16:16.080 --> 2:16:18.200 it was. There's a lot of people think he was staged. 2:16:18.720 --> 2:16:21.200 But also if it wasn't staged, the excuse they have 2:16:21.440 --> 2:16:23.160 is that the general who was leading it was about 2:16:23.160 --> 2:16:24.880 to get fired, so he just had to go, right. 2:16:25.200 --> 2:16:27.120 It's like, well, yeah, okay, it looked like a completely 2:16:27.120 --> 2:16:29.160 half cocked coup because it was they just they had 2:16:29.200 --> 2:16:31.680 to go before he got fired. This one, there was 2:16:31.760 --> 2:16:33.760 no time pressure. He could have just done this whenever 2:16:34.240 --> 2:16:38.360 with better planning, And I don't know it's it's all 2:16:39.200 --> 2:16:43.400 very very deeply weird in terms of what's happening next. 2:16:43.879 --> 2:16:47.520 I mean Yun was finished anyways, Like he again he 2:16:47.520 --> 2:16:49.280 had a twenty percent of proof of rating going into this. 2:16:49.600 --> 2:16:53.080 Coming out of this, there's immediately a Democratic party is 2:16:53.200 --> 2:16:55.720 trying to impeach him, Like a bunch of the PPP, 2:16:56.000 --> 2:16:58.640 who's again supposed to be his party, are also going 2:16:58.680 --> 2:17:00.760 along with it because they hate him. There was some 2:17:01.000 --> 2:17:04.119 very funny comments from PPP guys who were like his supporters, 2:17:04.160 --> 2:17:05.920 who were like, well he literally one of them said 2:17:05.920 --> 2:17:08.080 that he did this thing and as anyone thought about 2:17:08.080 --> 2:17:10.080 like the pressure of burden placed on him, maybe someone 2:17:10.120 --> 2:17:11.320 should have gotten to talk to him or did this 2:17:11.360 --> 2:17:13.480 because he was lonely, which is the most insane thing 2:17:13.520 --> 2:17:15.640 I've ever heard of my life. Like he just he 2:17:15.760 --> 2:17:18.160 just tried to argue that this guy you need a 2:17:18.200 --> 2:17:21.840 coup because he was lonely. What the fuck? 2:17:21.920 --> 2:17:25.080 It's the in cell evolution. It's finally happening in South Korea. 2:17:26.400 --> 2:17:28.520 Yeah, and like he is going to get impeached. The 2:17:28.600 --> 2:17:30.320 only way he's not going to get impeached is if 2:17:30.400 --> 2:17:33.480 the judiciary steps had to save him. And I can't 2:17:33.560 --> 2:17:36.720 imagine them trying it after again, he just tried to 2:17:36.760 --> 2:17:40.600 do a coup. He's going to prison, like probably his 2:17:40.720 --> 2:17:43.119 defense secretary is going to prison, Like the Defense Minister's 2:17:43.120 --> 2:17:45.080 going to prison. Probably a bunch of military guys are 2:17:45.120 --> 2:17:48.640 going to prison. Like this is it's so funny. They 2:17:48.720 --> 2:17:54.160 have just effectively annihilated their own political power for a generation. 2:17:54.760 --> 2:17:56.680 Like this faction of people who have been running the 2:17:56.720 --> 2:18:00.360 country is just gone. I mean they'll still be the PPP, right, 2:18:00.480 --> 2:18:02.480 this will be like conservatives, but like, they just have 2:18:02.920 --> 2:18:06.760 obliterated themselves in maybe the most spectacular fashion I have 2:18:06.920 --> 2:18:09.760 ever seen. And you know what happens when they are 2:18:09.800 --> 2:18:14.560 sort of unclear? Is it right now? We're recording this Wednesday, Yeah, 2:18:14.640 --> 2:18:17.880 Wednesday at like ten am. Yeah, so it's it's unclear 2:18:17.920 --> 2:18:19.640 exactly what's gonna happen in the time between when this 2:18:19.959 --> 2:18:22.400 when we record this and when this goes out, but 2:18:22.879 --> 2:18:26.959 uns finished. This is it's pretty yeah, and I'm I'm 2:18:27.120 --> 2:18:30.520 hoping that we see a serious attempt to actually like 2:18:31.000 --> 2:18:32.960 deal with the fact that the army is ran by 2:18:32.959 --> 2:18:35.000 a bunch of people who tried to do a coup. 2:18:35.360 --> 2:18:40.080 We won't and we might well no like it. Here's 2:18:40.120 --> 2:18:43.880 the thing in the US, absolutely not South Korea. Maybe 2:18:44.240 --> 2:18:46.600 there's a chance, there's like a there is a slight 2:18:46.840 --> 2:18:49.720 chance that people get purged from this, right and in 2:18:49.920 --> 2:18:52.440 a similar way to like Lula kind of purging some 2:18:52.520 --> 2:18:53.000 of the army. 2:18:53.240 --> 2:18:56.400 My South Korea does good things card is to already 2:18:56.440 --> 2:18:57.640 full up because of yesterday. 2:18:57.760 --> 2:18:58.160 That's true. 2:18:58.240 --> 2:19:02.120 I can't imagine they're gonna you more because it's South Korea. 2:19:02.320 --> 2:19:04.280 Well, I will also say, like one of the things 2:19:04.320 --> 2:19:07.000 that's happening is Korea is like major trade union federation 2:19:07.400 --> 2:19:11.040 is like doing a general strike until until the impeachment happens. 2:19:11.840 --> 2:19:14.800 So you know, there was a lot of pressure to 2:19:14.840 --> 2:19:18.040 clean house here, and like a lot of Korean liberalism 2:19:18.160 --> 2:19:20.720 is based on this, the sort of mythos of like 2:19:21.000 --> 2:19:23.119 of the student protesters, and like the protesters, you brought 2:19:23.120 --> 2:19:25.840 down the military dictatorship and trying to do a military 2:19:25.920 --> 2:19:28.400 coup and immediately failing is like the best possible thing 2:19:28.440 --> 2:19:32.520 you could have done for them. The consequences of this 2:19:32.840 --> 2:19:34.760 for you and are going to be extremely bad. I 2:19:34.840 --> 2:19:37.720 hope we get a better Korea out of this. I 2:19:37.840 --> 2:19:40.040 hope this sort of starts to stem the tide of 2:19:40.280 --> 2:19:43.800 the unhinged right wing surge that's been happening there for 2:19:44.080 --> 2:19:44.760 a while now. 2:19:45.120 --> 2:19:47.240 Be n I said this was like the tip of 2:19:47.320 --> 2:19:52.600 the bell curve. Yeah, in the global far right takeover. Yeah. 2:19:52.760 --> 2:19:57.920 I mean it's wow, it went bad. I may every 2:19:57.959 --> 2:20:01.000 single right wing attempt to do this go this because 2:20:01.520 --> 2:20:02.400 good lord, what. 2:20:02.520 --> 2:20:03.600 A heartwarming tale. 2:20:03.760 --> 2:20:03.960 Yep. 2:20:04.240 --> 2:20:07.680 Well that's that's been it for us today. You're at 2:20:07.879 --> 2:20:11.320 It could happen here. Tune in tomorrow for more exciting 2:20:11.440 --> 2:20:14.600 tales of political collapse. 2:20:15.240 --> 2:20:17.720 Yeah, and quite quite possibly, quite possibly, this is going 2:20:17.760 --> 2:20:20.240 to happen to you too. And I want everyone to 2:20:20.440 --> 2:20:22.760 understand that in terms of military cues in the last 2:20:22.800 --> 2:20:24.600 six months, the protesters are two to zero in the 2:20:24.720 --> 2:20:27.880 army's zero and two. So if this happens to you soon, 2:20:27.959 --> 2:20:50.840 Whitchie very much might go get them. Welcome to You 2:20:50.959 --> 2:20:54.160 could happen here a podcast that is quite often about 2:20:54.280 --> 2:20:57.920 abortion in this country. I'm your host, Na Wong. Things 2:20:57.959 --> 2:21:01.520 have been very bad under the last administration and the 2:21:01.560 --> 2:21:05.240 administration before that, and the administration before that, and going 2:21:05.280 --> 2:21:06.959 back a long long time, things have been not good. 2:21:06.959 --> 2:21:10.760 They've been steadily getting worse, and there is a lot 2:21:10.840 --> 2:21:12.720 of fear, and I think a lot of is very 2:21:12.920 --> 2:21:15.480 justified that things are going to get even worse under Trump, 2:21:16.240 --> 2:21:18.240 and to talk about what we need to be afraid 2:21:18.280 --> 2:21:22.120 of and what we don't is Kate Bertash, who's the 2:21:22.200 --> 2:21:25.680 executive director of the Digital Defense Fund, and also Crystal, 2:21:25.720 --> 2:21:29.119 who's an abortion worker and also a volunteer for abortion hotlines. 2:21:29.240 --> 2:21:30.800 So both of you two, welcome to the show. 2:21:31.360 --> 2:21:32.720 Excellent, Thanks for having us on. 2:21:33.160 --> 2:21:34.640 Yeah, thanks for having me. 2:21:35.040 --> 2:21:37.200 Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you both, and 2:21:37.280 --> 2:21:39.959 I'm also excited to let Kate talk a little bit 2:21:40.000 --> 2:21:41.680 about what the Digital Defense Fund is. 2:21:42.160 --> 2:21:45.840 Excellent, thanks so much, longtime listener, first time caller. 2:21:45.959 --> 2:21:46.480 I suppose. 2:21:46.920 --> 2:21:46.960 So. 2:21:47.080 --> 2:21:49.840 The Digital Defense Fund is an organization that's been around 2:21:49.920 --> 2:21:52.680 for actually since the last election. It was started in 2:21:52.760 --> 2:21:56.840 response to Trump winning for the first time, and we're 2:21:56.959 --> 2:22:00.280 an organization that was put together to provide free digital 2:22:00.320 --> 2:22:03.640 security and technology resources for the front lines of what 2:22:03.760 --> 2:22:06.520 then was just the abortion access movement. We've since moved 2:22:06.560 --> 2:22:11.520 to support other variety of autonomy and liberation movements, but 2:22:11.640 --> 2:22:15.640 we provide free digital security evaluations trainings. We do a 2:22:15.680 --> 2:22:17.879 lot of project management work to help people set up 2:22:18.280 --> 2:22:20.680 what they'd like to change about their systems and security 2:22:20.760 --> 2:22:22.600 and we also help people pay for it, which is 2:22:22.640 --> 2:22:24.960 a really wonderful way to get to kind of see 2:22:25.000 --> 2:22:27.240 through our values. So I'm excited to be on here 2:22:27.320 --> 2:22:30.680 today to talk a little bit more about the implications 2:22:30.720 --> 2:22:32.680 for both organizations and individuals. 2:22:33.280 --> 2:22:36.879 The very first wave impact of this election has been 2:22:37.120 --> 2:22:40.240 a lot of sort of fear about what's coming, and 2:22:40.320 --> 2:22:43.760 I wanted to, I guess, ask you about what kinds 2:22:43.760 --> 2:22:46.560 of fears you've been seeing and maybe talk a little 2:22:46.560 --> 2:22:50.360 bit about which ones are more justified than others, because 2:22:50.440 --> 2:22:52.840 I think, I mean, there's been some concern that I 2:22:52.920 --> 2:22:54.720 think is justified as good, and there's also been some 2:22:54.800 --> 2:22:58.360 stuff that is kind of not rooted in what the 2:22:58.440 --> 2:22:58.879 threats are. 2:22:59.720 --> 2:23:02.160 Yeah, I think it's a great time anytime this happens 2:23:02.200 --> 2:23:04.160 to sort of get to ask and answer the question, 2:23:04.240 --> 2:23:06.680 which is like how do we know? And I think 2:23:06.720 --> 2:23:09.120 we're sort of lucky in this way that we know 2:23:09.320 --> 2:23:11.800 what are likely to be risks now to both people 2:23:11.800 --> 2:23:14.160 who are seeking abortions as well as people who help 2:23:14.200 --> 2:23:16.640 them get their folks as well, like Crystal, I know, 2:23:16.680 --> 2:23:19.280 will provide some additional color to this as well, But 2:23:19.680 --> 2:23:22.359 we know what kind of threats face people facing abortions 2:23:22.400 --> 2:23:24.840 in those who help them, because unfortunately a lot of 2:23:24.879 --> 2:23:28.120 these threats have been happening for the last several decades, 2:23:28.200 --> 2:23:32.160 people have been prosecuted for suspicion of ending their own pregnancies. 2:23:32.440 --> 2:23:35.080 We get a lot of really incredible and insightful data 2:23:35.160 --> 2:23:38.560 from organizations like IF one how who put out these 2:23:39.000 --> 2:23:42.320 reports that are called self care Criminalized, and they look 2:23:42.400 --> 2:23:45.360 backwards across all of the different cases that have happened 2:23:45.360 --> 2:23:47.360 to this space and try to come up with sort 2:23:47.360 --> 2:23:48.959 of like these key aspects. And one of the big 2:23:49.000 --> 2:23:50.920 things that we know that I'm sure we're going to 2:23:50.959 --> 2:23:53.160 talk about a lot through this episode is that the 2:23:53.280 --> 2:23:55.320 core way that people come to the attention of law 2:23:55.400 --> 2:23:59.600 enforcement for seeking to allegedly end their own pregnancies is 2:23:59.720 --> 2:24:04.000 through usually someone they know reporting them or someone responsible 2:24:04.080 --> 2:24:06.280 for their care. So that might be like healthcare worker, 2:24:06.360 --> 2:24:09.800 social worker, other representative agent of the state, and it 2:24:09.840 --> 2:24:11.920 can be really devastating to kind of hear and I 2:24:12.000 --> 2:24:17.000 think internalize that it's often people's family members like X 2:24:17.360 --> 2:24:23.120 or friends, neighbor who might turn somebody in expecting or 2:24:23.360 --> 2:24:26.120 misunderstanding that it is a crime to end your own pregnancy. 2:24:26.640 --> 2:24:28.640 I think one of the things that's really hard about 2:24:28.680 --> 2:24:31.320 this is that it involves some of the ways in which, 2:24:31.480 --> 2:24:33.840 like I guess it's what you would call very unfortunately 2:24:33.920 --> 2:24:37.000 typical policing practices, the way in which people's rights are 2:24:37.040 --> 2:24:40.879 violated when they are interrogated, when they are pressured into 2:24:41.080 --> 2:24:44.920 disclosing information. There's something called consent search that it unfortunately 2:24:45.280 --> 2:24:47.480 ends up being a very common feature of these kinds 2:24:47.520 --> 2:24:49.560 of cases, which is where you're put in a room 2:24:49.840 --> 2:24:52.680 and you're talking to representive agent and state or a 2:24:52.720 --> 2:24:56.400 police officer, and they sort of pressure you into agreeing 2:24:56.560 --> 2:24:59.400 to unlock and disclose often your phone and other device 2:24:59.560 --> 2:25:03.400 or to or whyse share information quote unquote voluntarily. And 2:25:03.520 --> 2:25:05.480 it's easy to see why people kind of get pressured 2:25:05.520 --> 2:25:09.279 into that. So that is something that tends to happen 2:25:09.600 --> 2:25:13.320 in many kinds of prosecutions of crimes or alleged crimes. 2:25:13.840 --> 2:25:15.320 And I think it's hard for a lot of people 2:25:15.320 --> 2:25:19.240 to imagine what that's like to be pulled over and 2:25:19.680 --> 2:25:22.920 searched in this way, or like they're often like people 2:25:22.959 --> 2:25:26.320 are not the targeted victims of something like stop and frisk, 2:25:26.360 --> 2:25:28.040 and so it's sort of hard to imagine in your 2:25:28.120 --> 2:25:31.440 mind the way in which somebody is information or their 2:25:31.520 --> 2:25:34.680 data or their case comes to the attention of law enforcement, 2:25:34.959 --> 2:25:37.200 and so we like tend to then imagine these other 2:25:37.320 --> 2:25:41.000 threats that feel perhaps closer to our daily experience, especially 2:25:41.080 --> 2:25:44.320 as like often people who are not racially targeted by police, 2:25:44.680 --> 2:25:47.240 who are not targeted by the family policing system, or 2:25:47.320 --> 2:25:50.880 have their pregnancies surveiled by the hospital systems. So people 2:25:51.040 --> 2:25:53.440 like to imagine then that. I think a big one 2:25:53.480 --> 2:25:55.160 that we all hear and I think we're all going 2:25:55.280 --> 2:25:57.800 to take a deep breath at the same time is 2:25:58.040 --> 2:26:03.080 period tracking apps was kind of remarkable, as Crystal. 2:26:02.760 --> 2:26:05.280 I'm sure you've heard this too, mm hmm yea. 2:26:05.280 --> 2:26:06.960 And I would love to lease space, Crystal for you 2:26:07.000 --> 2:26:09.120 to add any context to sort of like the threats 2:26:09.160 --> 2:26:12.440 that are that are present versus stuff that people imagine. 2:26:12.760 --> 2:26:14.320 I know we're going to spend a lot of time 2:26:14.440 --> 2:26:15.959 talking about our friend, the period driver. 2:26:18.200 --> 2:26:20.520 So at the time of recording, it's been like about 2:26:20.879 --> 2:26:25.640 almost a month since election day, and uh, you know, 2:26:25.720 --> 2:26:27.959 I answer the phone for a couple of different places, 2:26:28.280 --> 2:26:32.480 places for both work and volunteering, and there's been a 2:26:32.600 --> 2:26:34.760 lot of fear, you know, and not saying that like, 2:26:34.959 --> 2:26:38.080 abortion access has been without fear up until this point, 2:26:38.600 --> 2:26:42.560 but people are very afraid. And you know, I'm getting 2:26:42.640 --> 2:26:45.760 a lot of questions about people asking like can I 2:26:46.200 --> 2:26:50.360 be arrested for giving you my information, funding in my ID, 2:26:51.280 --> 2:26:56.000 giving you my real name? Ordering medication online? Can the 2:26:56.160 --> 2:26:59.160 United States get my records if I order from this 2:26:59.600 --> 2:27:03.480 provider overseas? Such as women on web and just yeah, 2:27:03.520 --> 2:27:05.600 people asking like can I be arrested? 2:27:05.800 --> 2:27:08.280 You know, can I do this? Will I be in trouble? 2:27:08.959 --> 2:27:12.080 And it is something that is going We're going to 2:27:12.080 --> 2:27:14.800 see an increase in criminalization and increase in abortion bans. 2:27:15.000 --> 2:27:18.280 It is a complicated answer, you know. The strait of 2:27:18.360 --> 2:27:22.160 it is that yet you can access abortion medication online, 2:27:22.200 --> 2:27:24.760 even if you're in a band state, even if you're 2:27:24.760 --> 2:27:26.760 in a state with a total abortion ban, you can 2:27:26.959 --> 2:27:30.400 order the medication from reliable resources online and have it 2:27:30.440 --> 2:27:32.440 mail to you. And people do this every day, hundreds, 2:27:32.959 --> 2:27:35.360 hundreds and hundreds of people do this every day without 2:27:35.360 --> 2:27:40.680 any issue. But there is also risk and it's kind 2:27:40.720 --> 2:27:43.240 of like what Kate was saying, where people tend to 2:27:43.720 --> 2:27:45.959 it seems like people don't know what the risk has 2:27:46.080 --> 2:27:49.440 been or what it looks like because like Kate was saying, 2:27:49.480 --> 2:27:52.039 there's like I been all these years of pregnancy criminalization, 2:27:52.720 --> 2:27:54.800 and we know what it looks like, and it tends 2:27:54.840 --> 2:27:56.640 to not be what people are worrying about right now, 2:27:57.080 --> 2:27:59.160 where people seem to be thinking like that the police 2:27:59.160 --> 2:28:01.160 are going to come up arrest them for putting in 2:28:01.200 --> 2:28:04.160 this order along with hundreds of other people in a 2:28:04.200 --> 2:28:07.480 given day, or that the police or somehow are going 2:28:07.520 --> 2:28:11.480 to get their period tracker information on their on their phone, 2:28:11.959 --> 2:28:14.800 and you know, like, of course, you know, practice dicial 2:28:14.840 --> 2:28:16.640 security in a way that makes you feel comfortable. Like 2:28:16.680 --> 2:28:19.000 if you don't want to use a period tracking app, 2:28:19.240 --> 2:28:21.680 you know there are safer ones to use, or you 2:28:21.760 --> 2:28:23.800 don't have to use it. But the fact of the 2:28:23.879 --> 2:28:26.160 matter is is that even if you are using pen 2:28:26.240 --> 2:28:28.480 and paper to record your period, if you have an 2:28:28.480 --> 2:28:30.960 abusive partner, they're going to be able to take pictures 2:28:31.200 --> 2:28:34.800 and collaborate with police. So the biggest threats are always, 2:28:35.120 --> 2:28:37.039 you know, as the data shown, like Kate was saying, 2:28:37.600 --> 2:28:41.120 going to be healthcare workers and the people that you 2:28:41.240 --> 2:28:45.960 know such as partners, family members, neighbors, friends, et cetera, 2:28:46.480 --> 2:28:51.160 who are going to get access to pictures, screenshots. 2:28:51.320 --> 2:28:53.200 And of course, the police and warrants. 2:28:53.640 --> 2:28:56.000 It's not going to look like the Handmad's sale, where 2:28:56.040 --> 2:28:58.680 somebody's like coming in and going and forcing you to 2:28:58.800 --> 2:28:59.240 do something and. 2:28:59.280 --> 2:29:01.600 Dress a certain way, et cetera. It's not going to 2:29:01.640 --> 2:29:02.760 be like anything new and fancy. 2:29:02.800 --> 2:29:05.240 It's going to be the same old police surveillance and 2:29:05.280 --> 2:29:09.760 criminalization that we've been seeing. But there are ways in 2:29:09.800 --> 2:29:13.840 which we can protect ourselves when we're doing that. When 2:29:13.879 --> 2:29:15.840 somebody calls and they ask me, can I get in 2:29:15.879 --> 2:29:20.119 trouble for ordering this medication online? And people can get 2:29:20.160 --> 2:29:22.600 really in trouble for anything in the United States. You know, 2:29:22.680 --> 2:29:24.039 if the police want to go after you for something, 2:29:24.080 --> 2:29:26.040 they're going to find something, So you just have to 2:29:26.120 --> 2:29:27.960 not leave evidence. Like so, yeah, you can order the 2:29:28.000 --> 2:29:32.320 medication online, but you can also use signal and we 2:29:32.360 --> 2:29:34.920 can know that Kate's probably going to go more into this, 2:29:35.080 --> 2:29:37.560 but you can make sure you have disappearing messages. You 2:29:37.640 --> 2:29:40.880 can use encrypted emails and search engines. You have to 2:29:41.080 --> 2:29:43.320 make sure you're thinking about who can see your data 2:29:44.360 --> 2:29:47.400 and you know where your data is being recorded. And 2:29:47.600 --> 2:29:51.280 that's really like if you want to protect yourself in 2:29:51.400 --> 2:29:56.640 terms of avoiding criminalization for abortion and pregnancy outcomes and 2:29:57.240 --> 2:29:59.640 you know, having a secure and safe abortion in the 2:29:59.760 --> 2:30:01.960 United it stays. Then you have to look at the 2:30:02.000 --> 2:30:04.200 basics like this, And I'm going to let Kate talk 2:30:04.240 --> 2:30:05.520 about that a little bit more because I know that 2:30:05.600 --> 2:30:08.120 you have all the good information that the Digital Defense 2:30:08.120 --> 2:30:11.240 Line has looked into about the apps and then how 2:30:11.280 --> 2:30:14.040 to delete data and what data to delete and how 2:30:14.080 --> 2:30:14.640 to think about this. 2:30:15.440 --> 2:30:17.920 Yeah, I think one of the really tough things right 2:30:18.080 --> 2:30:21.640 is that, like so like neither I or Crystal or attorneys, 2:30:22.240 --> 2:30:24.240 but often people are just getting a lot of advice 2:30:24.280 --> 2:30:26.400 from attorneys, and some of our work here is to 2:30:26.480 --> 2:30:28.320 make sure that like when you get sort of this 2:30:28.520 --> 2:30:31.680 idea of when something might be criminalized, or often like 2:30:31.760 --> 2:30:34.560 in this circumstance where we just like don't know actually 2:30:34.600 --> 2:30:36.720 how it's going to show up a lot, yet we're 2:30:36.760 --> 2:30:39.520 trying to think about sort of what are the ways 2:30:39.560 --> 2:30:42.280 we can have our digital devices and our technology sort 2:30:42.320 --> 2:30:45.959 of support us with these by default type of settings. 2:30:46.280 --> 2:30:47.720 One of the things that's really tough to I think 2:30:47.840 --> 2:30:49.640 understand until you've been through it is sort of like 2:30:49.760 --> 2:30:52.360 what it looks like when you go through any kind 2:30:52.360 --> 2:30:57.280 of investigation. I think the other hard kind of like 2:30:57.440 --> 2:30:59.360 context to get from the way we talk about it 2:30:59.440 --> 2:31:02.000 now is that a lot of how pregnancy is criminalized 2:31:02.400 --> 2:31:05.200 that sort of scaffolding that infrastructure was built during the 2:31:05.280 --> 2:31:07.800 drug war. So one of the most common kinds of 2:31:08.120 --> 2:31:12.240 pregnancy criminalization in America is drug testing people who are 2:31:12.400 --> 2:31:15.320 pregnant or come to give birth without their consent. And 2:31:15.760 --> 2:31:18.560 you know, so we basically consider like being an alleged 2:31:18.640 --> 2:31:21.280 drug user to be the sort of like primary way 2:31:21.440 --> 2:31:24.080 that our decision of like how much the digital evidence 2:31:24.160 --> 2:31:26.360 matters has like kind of come to take shape. So 2:31:26.959 --> 2:31:30.680 often when an investigation is happening, the police will look 2:31:30.760 --> 2:31:33.160 for where are all the sources of information I can 2:31:33.200 --> 2:31:35.480 find about this, because like the human body is like 2:31:35.640 --> 2:31:40.000 not super compliant with like digital forensic evidence. 2:31:39.760 --> 2:31:40.920 Every dadiary processes. 2:31:41.000 --> 2:31:42.680 I think it's like one of the most magical things 2:31:42.720 --> 2:31:45.040 about humans is that, you know, our bodies defy the 2:31:45.080 --> 2:31:47.480 letter of law in so many wonderful ways. But that 2:31:47.600 --> 2:31:48.960 means that they sort of have to then go to 2:31:49.040 --> 2:31:51.640 this like digital body of evidence to kind of tell 2:31:51.760 --> 2:31:53.880 the story or as like all the wonderful lawyers that 2:31:53.959 --> 2:31:56.680 advise us, like to say, to sort of like be 2:31:56.760 --> 2:32:00.160 able to draw the dots or the blndes between the 2:32:00.240 --> 2:32:03.200 dots and form this kind of like coherent set of 2:32:03.320 --> 2:32:06.080 facts of what happened between one moment to the next. 2:32:06.520 --> 2:32:09.280 So often when we're like imagining all of the data 2:32:09.320 --> 2:32:12.560 that lives in our phone, because unfortunately, in many cases, 2:32:13.040 --> 2:32:15.960 when you are perhaps coerced into consenting to the search 2:32:16.000 --> 2:32:19.160 of a device, they will often take your phone and 2:32:19.240 --> 2:32:21.480 then have you unlock it. It gets plugged into a 2:32:21.640 --> 2:32:25.080 device that makes clone of the entire drive, and then 2:32:25.240 --> 2:32:27.560 they can sort of with many different techniques kind of 2:32:27.640 --> 2:32:30.840 leisurely look through it for keywords to kind of tell 2:32:30.920 --> 2:32:33.040 where there might be evidence somewhere on your phone that you, 2:32:33.200 --> 2:32:36.120 for example, when on the internet, search for and purchased 2:32:36.360 --> 2:32:40.640 abortion medication. So yes, like period track and data might 2:32:40.680 --> 2:32:43.400 be one portion of that. But unfortunately, in all the 2:32:43.480 --> 2:32:46.040 cases that we've seen, or at least in most of 2:32:46.040 --> 2:32:47.880 the ones that we're most familiar with, all of that 2:32:47.959 --> 2:32:51.480 quote unquote plain text data. So where you've just written 2:32:51.560 --> 2:32:55.200 out in your own unencrypted words into a search bar 2:32:55.520 --> 2:32:58.960 in the search engine on your phone, or you've sent 2:32:59.160 --> 2:33:02.480 a text message to a very close contact with somebody 2:33:02.760 --> 2:33:04.840 telling them how you feel about your pregnancy. That you 2:33:04.920 --> 2:33:09.000 desire to end it, perhaps your plan to buypills, even 2:33:09.040 --> 2:33:11.879 the receipt that comes into your inbox. It's not necessary 2:33:11.959 --> 2:33:13.879 then to go to all these companies and go file 2:33:14.040 --> 2:33:16.280 a you know, for a warrant and get all that information, 2:33:16.440 --> 2:33:18.760 because now it's in just plain text, quote unquote on 2:33:18.800 --> 2:33:23.840 your phone, and that is far more information than the 2:33:24.080 --> 2:33:27.119 like abstract information that might come out of a period tracker. 2:33:27.320 --> 2:33:30.640 So unfortunately cops don't tend to use these in cases 2:33:30.680 --> 2:33:33.360 that we've seen because it's quite simply not necessary. That 2:33:33.520 --> 2:33:36.320 kind of like plain text admission of your state of 2:33:36.480 --> 2:33:39.280 mind or the statement of your intent has unfortunately been 2:33:39.360 --> 2:33:41.480 the sort of core evidence that comes up. And I 2:33:41.560 --> 2:33:43.119 think this has like a lot of like really quite 2:33:43.160 --> 2:33:46.920 sad implications. I know, in prior to prepare for this episode, 2:33:47.240 --> 2:33:48.840 we were discussing a couple of cases that I know 2:33:48.879 --> 2:33:51.000 folks might be more familiar with. A big one that 2:33:51.080 --> 2:33:53.600 came up is, you know, the case of a mother 2:33:53.720 --> 2:33:57.040 and daughter out of Nebraska who were having a discussion 2:33:57.280 --> 2:34:00.440 around allegedly helping the daughter to find and end for 2:34:00.520 --> 2:34:04.200 her pregnancy over Meta's Facebook messenger. And I think what 2:34:04.280 --> 2:34:06.760 I find really quite devastating about it for many reasons, 2:34:07.040 --> 2:34:10.160 is that these messages were actually ones that like I 2:34:10.200 --> 2:34:12.040 think any of us could hope to have with a 2:34:12.160 --> 2:34:15.200 very supportive parent or other person in our life. Is like, 2:34:15.800 --> 2:34:19.320 why we have, you know, these conversations so that we 2:34:19.400 --> 2:34:22.400 can feel connected and supported through such a complex and 2:34:22.520 --> 2:34:25.240 affecting process. It then becomes very sad to me that 2:34:25.280 --> 2:34:27.200 it becomes a criminal matter just because it was in 2:34:27.240 --> 2:34:30.560 a place that that conversation, you know, Meta did not 2:34:30.680 --> 2:34:33.440 have this family's back in terms of encrypting those messages 2:34:33.600 --> 2:34:36.320 or ensuring that they were free to speak of what 2:34:36.400 --> 2:34:38.720 they wish when they wish by default. So I think 2:34:38.760 --> 2:34:41.240 like when we start to give out advice, it's been 2:34:41.280 --> 2:34:43.160 important for us at Digital Defense Fund to kind of 2:34:43.240 --> 2:34:46.280 work backwards. I know it's been an existential crisis I 2:34:46.360 --> 2:34:49.600 think for everybody in the digital security space to know 2:34:49.760 --> 2:34:52.120 that like the list of advice I could give you 2:34:52.760 --> 2:34:55.360 on how to protect yourself when going through these transactions, 2:34:55.480 --> 2:34:58.160 or when seeking support, or like just having a normal 2:34:58.680 --> 2:35:00.760 you know, questions and going on the Internet being able 2:35:00.840 --> 2:35:03.040 to google them and get them answered. That we have 2:35:03.120 --> 2:35:05.200 to kind of like start from the basics, because like 2:35:05.360 --> 2:35:09.320 you have the right to find information from reliable resources. 2:35:09.320 --> 2:35:11.600 You have the right to buy pills from a reliable source. 2:35:11.879 --> 2:35:14.440 You have the right to like seek that kind of 2:35:14.480 --> 2:35:16.720 connection and support from people in your life. And so 2:35:17.160 --> 2:35:19.400 we're trying to cut down on like all the infinite 2:35:19.400 --> 2:35:22.160 amount of advice that we could give and try to 2:35:22.240 --> 2:35:24.440 like narrow it to like what is actionable, what has 2:35:24.480 --> 2:35:27.280 the greatest impact potentially in the cases we've seen. 2:35:27.920 --> 2:35:29.440 And I know we're going to dig into it, but 2:35:29.480 --> 2:35:30.039 I would love to. 2:35:30.760 --> 2:35:34.240 Leave room to tack a little bit more about that whenever, 2:35:34.280 --> 2:35:35.959 it's a good time in this conversation to go through 2:35:36.000 --> 2:35:37.520 our top three action items. 2:35:37.879 --> 2:35:42.400 So before we get to that, unfortunately we are under capitalism, 2:35:42.480 --> 2:35:46.439 which means we have to do these ads. Moving back shortly. 2:35:56.120 --> 2:35:59.840 And we are back another lawsuit. This is a little different. 2:36:00.000 --> 2:36:00.840 It's not a criminal charge. 2:36:00.840 --> 2:36:02.760 It was a lawsuit in Texas, and I want to 2:36:02.800 --> 2:36:05.360 bring up just as an example of like, how are 2:36:05.840 --> 2:36:08.160 you know our data can betray us. 2:36:08.120 --> 2:36:08.720 In these moments? 2:36:09.600 --> 2:36:12.480 Is there was and this was a really silly lawsuit 2:36:12.760 --> 2:36:15.480 has been dismissed, But there was a Texas man who 2:36:15.520 --> 2:36:19.280 filed a wrongful death lawsuit accusing three women of helping 2:36:19.360 --> 2:36:21.000 his exoife obtained abortion pills. 2:36:21.600 --> 2:36:23.800 I believe. I think it was dismissed last year, or. 2:36:23.800 --> 2:36:26.640 Maybe it was earlier this year. It wasn't even under 2:36:26.879 --> 2:36:28.959 the aid and event in law in Texas. It was actually, 2:36:29.320 --> 2:36:31.960 you know, they say, sought a different avenue. There actually 2:36:32.040 --> 2:36:36.480 hasn't been a successful lawsuit against an abortion seeker under 2:36:36.720 --> 2:36:39.200 Aida bet law or any other law in Texas in 2:36:39.240 --> 2:36:41.200 the last two years, which I think is just something 2:36:41.240 --> 2:36:43.560 worth bringing up, is that, you know, we actually haven't 2:36:43.760 --> 2:36:45.760 seen that happen yet other than this case. 2:36:46.080 --> 2:36:46.959 But what happened in this. 2:36:47.080 --> 2:36:51.039 Case is this person was planning on terminating their pregnancy. 2:36:51.200 --> 2:36:53.280 They were talking to some friends who were helping them out, 2:36:53.920 --> 2:36:58.080 and their iPhone was synced up to their iPad. So 2:36:58.520 --> 2:37:01.000 if anyone's familiar with that, you have your your I 2:37:01.160 --> 2:37:04.680 messages appear on both devices. The I messages that are 2:37:04.720 --> 2:37:06.200 coming to your phone are also going to be going 2:37:06.240 --> 2:37:10.760 to your iPad. And her ex husband took pictures of 2:37:11.160 --> 2:37:13.600 the I messages coming through on her iPad, and that 2:37:13.840 --> 2:37:16.640 was what was used. Even though the lawsuit was dismissed 2:37:17.320 --> 2:37:20.959 because it was a very silly lawsuit, total waste of time. 2:37:21.440 --> 2:37:25.000 But that is the kind of thing that we really 2:37:25.200 --> 2:37:27.400 you really need to be asking yourself, is you know, 2:37:28.000 --> 2:37:29.360 where are my messages going? 2:37:29.600 --> 2:37:31.800 Who is seeing my messages, who is seeing my emails? 2:37:31.840 --> 2:37:32.640 What is it connected to? 2:37:33.440 --> 2:37:33.600 Yeah? 2:37:33.640 --> 2:37:35.920 Because yeah, because it can just look like that too. 2:37:36.240 --> 2:37:37.840 I would say that's exactly right. 2:37:38.040 --> 2:37:40.800 Is I think I had a good friend who works 2:37:40.840 --> 2:37:43.560 in another area of security who and this is like 2:37:43.840 --> 2:37:45.800 how we learn these things, right, is that folks who 2:37:45.840 --> 2:37:47.880 work in the parts of security that deal with, for example, 2:37:48.240 --> 2:37:51.080 intimate partner violence or the sort of quote unquote in 2:37:51.160 --> 2:37:55.320 household surveillance threat model I think is vastly underestimated. I 2:37:55.400 --> 2:37:57.600 can't recall the figures at the moment, but one of 2:37:57.680 --> 2:38:00.320 those more recent reports from if one how actually had 2:38:00.400 --> 2:38:04.720 detailed just how frequently actually that sort of like how 2:38:04.800 --> 2:38:07.360 it is also this like intimate partner violence situation that 2:38:07.480 --> 2:38:11.560 comes up also in a regnancy or abortion criminalization case. 2:38:12.080 --> 2:38:13.920 And so you know, this person challenged me to think 2:38:13.959 --> 2:38:16.800 about the exact threat model of the unlocked iPad on 2:38:16.879 --> 2:38:19.600 the on the family coffee table and thinking about like 2:38:19.720 --> 2:38:23.040 when we share information and we share devices kind of 2:38:23.080 --> 2:38:25.400 like where does it go? So like, actually, our first 2:38:25.440 --> 2:38:28.120 piece of recommendation that we often give is is it 2:38:28.160 --> 2:38:30.959 can sound deceptively simple and it doesn't sound technical at all, 2:38:31.600 --> 2:38:34.400 but it is to think about like who you are 2:38:34.480 --> 2:38:37.560 telling about your experience and about like you know, your 2:38:37.600 --> 2:38:41.120 abortion or wanting to have an abortion, and then understanding 2:38:41.120 --> 2:38:43.600 whether you've like been clear about your boundaries, like do 2:38:43.720 --> 2:38:45.959 you expect them to not share or tell with others? 2:38:46.200 --> 2:38:48.360 Like can you delete any messages with them? Would they 2:38:48.400 --> 2:38:50.320 ask if you ask them after the fact to delete 2:38:50.360 --> 2:38:52.840 things for you, would they absolutely do that? I think 2:38:52.840 --> 2:38:55.000 you've can be really challenging to kind of like zoom 2:38:55.040 --> 2:38:58.800 out and realize, like you know, it's often not as 2:38:58.879 --> 2:39:01.080 easy as it sounds to like kind of do this 2:39:01.200 --> 2:39:03.680 mental inventory and think about all the different ways that 2:39:03.879 --> 2:39:06.240 like me and my best friend talk, or you know, 2:39:06.640 --> 2:39:09.360 when I mentioned things to people offhand, we don't have 2:39:09.480 --> 2:39:12.560 a really good I think like social practice of you know, 2:39:12.720 --> 2:39:16.039 understanding the implication of like sharing other people's information without 2:39:16.040 --> 2:39:20.320 their permission, and so, like you know, it's very impactful 2:39:20.360 --> 2:39:22.920 but also very difficult, and it can't be very individual 2:39:23.040 --> 2:39:24.600 for all of us to kind of think more carefully 2:39:24.720 --> 2:39:27.240 about with whom we share things and how we ask 2:39:27.320 --> 2:39:29.879 people to keep our confidence, and how we can even 2:39:29.959 --> 2:39:32.360 offer each other the ability to like delete things that 2:39:32.400 --> 2:39:35.240 we don't want to exist indefinitely. I think one of 2:39:35.280 --> 2:39:39.000 the biggest sort of existential struggles that crosses over to 2:39:39.040 --> 2:39:42.640 where people get support for abortions from like organizations, also 2:39:42.720 --> 2:39:45.280 includes the fact that I know has been discussed many 2:39:45.320 --> 2:39:47.960 times on this podcast, that there is a difference in 2:39:48.040 --> 2:39:50.520 how much information is kept depending on where you were 2:39:50.560 --> 2:39:54.080 having a conversation on your phone. So an SMS text message, 2:39:54.200 --> 2:39:57.440 those little green bubbles that go back and forth between 2:39:57.480 --> 2:40:00.640 you and possibly other people who are on iOS like 2:40:01.040 --> 2:40:04.920 iOS and Android combination conversation you're friends with and an 2:40:05.040 --> 2:40:07.400 Android might have a green bubble come back to you. 2:40:07.720 --> 2:40:10.080 That basically means that that is going as an SMS 2:40:10.200 --> 2:40:13.200 text message to your phone carrier, and that means that 2:40:13.240 --> 2:40:16.360 it's going quote unquote in plain text, totally unencrypted to 2:40:16.480 --> 2:40:21.320 the cell tower, and it's being held by that phone carrier, unencrypted, 2:40:21.879 --> 2:40:25.000 readable as it is as you typed it in as 2:40:25.080 --> 2:40:28.120 far as we know forever. It can vary depending on 2:40:28.440 --> 2:40:31.279 whether or not you move to a different carrier. But unfortunately, 2:40:31.320 --> 2:40:33.840 phone carriers have a very long history also of disclosing 2:40:33.879 --> 2:40:37.280 that information readily on request, either from law enforcement or 2:40:37.320 --> 2:40:40.840 from other agencies, and I think that is troubling. I think, 2:40:40.959 --> 2:40:43.840 like no person would really like to know that, regardless 2:40:43.840 --> 2:40:45.680 of what that you intend to do with your text messages. 2:40:45.800 --> 2:40:48.040 But it's why we often then encourage people as like 2:40:48.120 --> 2:40:51.680 sort of a second step to try and use encrypted 2:40:51.760 --> 2:40:56.000 chat with Signal or another trusted and encrypted chat. Again 2:40:56.200 --> 2:41:00.120 sounds overly simplistic, but I think having those disappearing messages on, 2:41:00.600 --> 2:41:03.400 especially between people who are seeking support from one another, 2:41:03.560 --> 2:41:06.320 whether it's somebody in your life or another organization that's 2:41:06.360 --> 2:41:08.760 helping you to get your abortion, there really is something 2:41:08.800 --> 2:41:12.119 to that ability to again speak freely, to be best friends, 2:41:12.240 --> 2:41:15.280 helping your friends you know, allegedly get abortion medication, or 2:41:15.360 --> 2:41:18.600 to being a mom you know, there to support your child. 2:41:18.720 --> 2:41:21.400 No matter what, I think, it's just something really wonderful 2:41:21.440 --> 2:41:24.800 about how using disappearing messages with Signal like reflects the 2:41:24.920 --> 2:41:27.080 values that we actually have already with each other and 2:41:27.280 --> 2:41:30.920 just like make sure that technology companies or corporations or 2:41:31.080 --> 2:41:32.920 law enforcement don't get to get in the way of 2:41:33.200 --> 2:41:34.240 how we want to live our lives. 2:41:34.760 --> 2:41:39.080 So yeah, yeah, so really supporting somebody through an abortion 2:41:39.879 --> 2:41:41.160 includes digital security. 2:41:41.400 --> 2:41:44.240 Yes, same with providers to people who are answering the phones. 2:41:44.520 --> 2:41:46.600 Digital security is one of the number one priorities. 2:41:46.760 --> 2:41:49.520 And yeah, if you're supporting somebody with an abortion, that 2:41:49.560 --> 2:41:51.200 should be your number one priority as well. 2:41:51.520 --> 2:41:51.680 Well. 2:41:51.720 --> 2:41:53.800 And like I bet people like you know when when 2:41:53.840 --> 2:41:56.840 you talk to people like you're often I imagine one 2:41:56.879 --> 2:41:59.520 of the first people that they're expressing themselves to it 2:41:59.520 --> 2:42:01.520 all about what they're going through. And you know, I 2:42:01.680 --> 2:42:03.400 know that that the point is to help people get 2:42:03.440 --> 2:42:05.360 to their procedure, but often they're bringing a lot of 2:42:05.440 --> 2:42:07.879 other things with them and they're not sure. 2:42:07.760 --> 2:42:08.520 If they're important. 2:42:08.600 --> 2:42:10.960 I remember, like you mentioning this, but just the amount 2:42:10.959 --> 2:42:13.280 of weight that is for y'all as a sport too. 2:42:13.920 --> 2:42:16.840 Yeah, and like people are scared for good reason. 2:42:16.959 --> 2:42:19.120 You know, we do live in a fascist country and 2:42:19.560 --> 2:42:22.960 a police surveillance state, so you know, their fears are founded, 2:42:23.560 --> 2:42:27.640 but there are a lot of excellent resources. They're not alone, 2:42:27.840 --> 2:42:29.920 like you know, you and I know this case, but 2:42:29.959 --> 2:42:31.680 there are so many people who's got the back of 2:42:31.760 --> 2:42:35.200 everyone who needs an abortion, and you know, you may 2:42:35.280 --> 2:42:37.840 not know the safe way of going about it, but 2:42:38.400 --> 2:42:42.400 there are people who are committed to digital security and safety. 2:42:42.440 --> 2:42:46.080 And you're in you're and you avoiding criminalization, So you know, 2:42:46.200 --> 2:42:49.360 part of the service is also reassuring people of that too, 2:42:50.120 --> 2:42:52.240 that it is possible to have a safe abortions. 2:42:52.320 --> 2:43:03.160 Even still, the next thing that. 2:43:03.240 --> 2:43:05.600 I know that we were talking about Kate in terms 2:43:05.640 --> 2:43:09.080 of like really practical, like what you can do now 2:43:09.120 --> 2:43:12.400 to protect yourself is having a plan for when you 2:43:12.520 --> 2:43:14.840 need to go get health care and you have to 2:43:14.920 --> 2:43:18.600 interface with like a medical team, a medical site such 2:43:18.640 --> 2:43:19.959 as an er a clinic. 2:43:20.480 --> 2:43:23.320 I'm an obgyn, a doctor of any kind. 2:43:23.879 --> 2:43:28.160 Because I think I believe the number one source of 2:43:28.720 --> 2:43:31.760 criminalization like who's reporting who who is criminal? Like who's 2:43:31.840 --> 2:43:36.360 calling the police, who's reporting these and giving over the 2:43:36.440 --> 2:43:38.720 information is as often healthcare worker. 2:43:39.080 --> 2:43:41.080 I believe that is the number one source. 2:43:41.680 --> 2:43:44.160 So you know, you do that is something to keep 2:43:44.160 --> 2:43:46.560 you to I am a healthcare worker, but it's just 2:43:46.800 --> 2:43:49.440 it's just a fact that that's something that we all 2:43:49.480 --> 2:43:52.080 need to be mindful of. And as a patient somebody 2:43:52.120 --> 2:43:55.160 is seeking healthcare, it's completely appropriate to be thinking of 2:43:55.200 --> 2:43:57.760 your own security and your safety when you're if you 2:43:57.840 --> 2:44:00.600 need to access health care. So you know, one thing 2:44:01.160 --> 2:44:05.080 is that luckily abortion is very safe and very effective, 2:44:05.480 --> 2:44:09.480 and if you don't feel comfortable going to an er 2:44:09.959 --> 2:44:12.680 for very good reasons. There are many good reasons to 2:44:12.760 --> 2:44:15.440 not want to go to r including costs, including your 2:44:15.440 --> 2:44:18.240 safety and security, the chance of criminalization. 2:44:19.160 --> 2:44:22.560 There is a free medical resource and a free legal. 2:44:22.400 --> 2:44:24.080 Resource that you can call. I'm going to talk about 2:44:24.080 --> 2:44:27.800 the medical resource first. There is the Miscarriage an Abortion 2:44:27.920 --> 2:44:33.320 Hotline or MA hotline dot org. But you can call 2:44:33.640 --> 2:44:37.520 and get some you know, feedback from a doctor about Hey, 2:44:37.760 --> 2:44:39.000 do I even need to go to the er? 2:44:39.400 --> 2:44:40.120 Is this normal? 2:44:40.280 --> 2:44:43.320 Is something wrong? You actually can run that by a 2:44:43.440 --> 2:44:47.720 safe person before just going to the er. And that's 2:44:47.760 --> 2:44:50.360 like one example of like having a plan, you know, 2:44:50.520 --> 2:44:51.800 like Okay, I think I might need. 2:44:51.720 --> 2:44:52.400 To go to the er. 2:44:53.080 --> 2:44:55.440 You know, let me check with a trusted resource. 2:44:55.560 --> 2:44:58.039 Let me check with the Miscarriage and Abortion hotline if 2:44:58.080 --> 2:45:00.120 I can get some feedback on what's going on with 2:45:00.160 --> 2:45:03.280 some of my symptoms. And you know, it's like this 2:45:03.640 --> 2:45:07.800 extra kind of added support that you can access as 2:45:07.840 --> 2:45:10.760 a pregnant person or you know, if you're having a miscarriage, 2:45:11.000 --> 2:45:13.960 if you're having an abortion, to assess your risk and 2:45:14.000 --> 2:45:15.840 to see if you can avoid even going to a 2:45:15.920 --> 2:45:19.960 medical slight given that you know, going to an emergency 2:45:20.040 --> 2:45:24.360 room in a banned state is something that does increase 2:45:24.440 --> 2:45:25.560 the risk of criminalization. 2:45:26.120 --> 2:45:28.800 Yes, and I think it was from our peers M 2:45:28.879 --> 2:45:31.200 and a hotline, and then I know the other hotline 2:45:31.240 --> 2:45:34.720 that if you have questions, also, the repro Legal Hotline 2:45:35.320 --> 2:45:38.080 is a wonderful resource that I know in all the 2:45:38.120 --> 2:45:40.760 show notes will include these. We try to include along 2:45:40.800 --> 2:45:43.400 with the miscarriage and Abortion hotline, so you have folks 2:45:43.440 --> 2:45:45.920 you can call who are professionals to ask about medical questions. 2:45:46.200 --> 2:45:48.960 If folks you can call who answer questions about legal 2:45:49.080 --> 2:45:52.400 questions about your abortion or pregnancy experience. I know that 2:45:52.560 --> 2:45:55.240 it's really hard because often when folks are in a 2:45:55.360 --> 2:45:59.560 hospital setting, we're sort of socialized to disclose everything. You know, 2:45:59.680 --> 2:46:03.720 we want to tell our doctor what's wrong and tell 2:46:03.840 --> 2:46:07.320 them everything we took, and you know, you worry it 2:46:07.480 --> 2:46:10.840 might be relevant. But I was reassured, I think by 2:46:10.959 --> 2:46:13.680 many other professionals in the space that doctors treat based 2:46:13.720 --> 2:46:16.920 on the symptoms that you present with, regardless of how 2:46:17.000 --> 2:46:18.960 they got there. You might be at a physician where 2:46:18.959 --> 2:46:21.080 you don't know, so you know, if you just tell 2:46:21.160 --> 2:46:23.720 folks what's going on with your body, what you are seeing, 2:46:24.400 --> 2:46:27.080 what you were feeling and experiencing. It is their job 2:46:27.160 --> 2:46:29.119 to treat you regardless of what you choose to share. 2:46:29.200 --> 2:46:31.120 And I would say that that's actually a true regardless 2:46:31.360 --> 2:46:34.360 of what healthcare condition you come into the ear with, 2:46:35.120 --> 2:46:38.240 it is your right to only disclose as much as 2:46:38.320 --> 2:46:40.920 you feel safe doing so. So I think, like that 2:46:41.120 --> 2:46:43.280 was something that I know, again we're not used to 2:46:43.360 --> 2:46:45.600 thinking about that as like a digital security measure, but 2:46:45.680 --> 2:46:47.840 it is an information in security measure, and I think 2:46:47.879 --> 2:46:50.680 an operational security measure that you know, we've had to 2:46:50.800 --> 2:46:54.000 like then realize that that's actually probably almost more important 2:46:54.040 --> 2:46:55.879 to tell people before we start getting into this nitty 2:46:55.920 --> 2:46:58.040 gritty of like things to do with your phone, is 2:46:58.120 --> 2:47:01.840 to understand that those principles that we believe that you know, 2:47:02.400 --> 2:47:05.440 the human again, the human body is very varied and 2:47:05.520 --> 2:47:08.800 how it experiences something like pregnancy, miscarriage, and abortion, and 2:47:09.280 --> 2:47:11.360 that you know, folks have a responsibility to treat you 2:47:11.440 --> 2:47:14.720 regardless of you know, what's in your phone or what 2:47:14.840 --> 2:47:17.080 happened before that, or the like statement of facts that 2:47:17.120 --> 2:47:19.000 are relevant to a courtroom and not to your care. 2:47:19.600 --> 2:47:22.119 So, yeah, do you too have anything else you want 2:47:22.160 --> 2:47:24.720 to make sure the audience knows before we head out. 2:47:25.240 --> 2:47:26.280 Yeah, just kind of like. 2:47:26.280 --> 2:47:27.960 One more piece. It's kind of our last piece of 2:47:28.000 --> 2:47:30.120 the puzzle, So you know, just to reiterate because I 2:47:30.160 --> 2:47:32.160 know it's good to hear things repeated again, you know, 2:47:32.240 --> 2:47:35.760 with the actual kind of pregnancy criminalization, digital security advice, 2:47:35.879 --> 2:47:39.000 we talk about understanding who you're disclosing stuff too, making 2:47:39.040 --> 2:47:42.000 sure they are clear on your expectations. Try to if 2:47:42.000 --> 2:47:45.119 you can have conversations with them in a secure place 2:47:45.280 --> 2:47:47.800 or a private place like signal with disappearing messages on. 2:47:48.240 --> 2:47:49.800 For our second item, we're going to make a plan 2:47:49.920 --> 2:47:51.720 for if we need to get care after the fact 2:47:51.879 --> 2:47:54.520 and ensure that we're trying to again have our support people. 2:47:55.280 --> 2:47:58.120 Also understand that you know, doctors treat you based on 2:47:58.120 --> 2:48:00.280 the symptoms you present with That is I don't have 2:48:00.320 --> 2:48:02.040 to tell them anything else that you do not wish 2:48:02.080 --> 2:48:04.920 to disclose. And the third thing is that something that 2:48:04.959 --> 2:48:07.680 I think as digital security practitioners we kind of forget 2:48:07.800 --> 2:48:11.280 is super important, which is that like you know, I 2:48:11.320 --> 2:48:15.320 think I run into this conflict where as like experts 2:48:15.440 --> 2:48:18.240 or smart people, we try to like imagine in our mind, 2:48:18.480 --> 2:48:21.119 like how we would have this perfectly like footprint free abortion, 2:48:21.879 --> 2:48:24.320 you know like this like use signal, use Tori's bitcoin, 2:48:24.480 --> 2:48:28.240 kind of like strange way of architecting, you know, privacy 2:48:28.280 --> 2:48:30.560 in our mind, And I call it the ghost abortion, 2:48:30.959 --> 2:48:32.800 like that it's it's a myth. You can't have one. 2:48:32.879 --> 2:48:35.400 There's no such thing as an abortion that leads no footprint. 2:48:36.080 --> 2:48:38.320 But I think we forget then that it actually is 2:48:38.400 --> 2:48:41.040 super meaningful to delete what's within our power to delete. 2:48:41.120 --> 2:48:43.600 So our third recommendation for folks is to like be 2:48:43.720 --> 2:48:46.680 aware of what's collected and then ensure that you know that. 2:48:46.760 --> 2:48:48.320 You can delete your browser history. 2:48:48.360 --> 2:48:51.040 You can delete your Google Map's history from like driving 2:48:51.040 --> 2:48:53.520 in to the clinic. You can delete your emails, you 2:48:53.600 --> 2:48:56.680 can delete messages on certain platforms, and I think, just 2:48:56.760 --> 2:49:00.000 like understanding that deleting what you can is actually super meaningful. 2:49:00.000 --> 2:49:01.480 Well, I actually didn't know untill. 2:49:01.320 --> 2:49:05.080 I got this job that certain platforms, like even Google products, 2:49:05.160 --> 2:49:07.160 like if you delete something from it, it is purge 2:49:07.200 --> 2:49:09.040 from the servers like something like two and a half 2:49:09.080 --> 2:49:11.720 months later. So when you delete stuff, it's very meaningful. 2:49:12.160 --> 2:49:14.120 I think there you get more options than ever to 2:49:14.240 --> 2:49:16.600 decide like how long you want to keep something, And 2:49:16.720 --> 2:49:18.440 it does make it so that that primary thing we 2:49:18.520 --> 2:49:20.520 talked about, like if somebody were to take my phone 2:49:21.120 --> 2:49:23.000 from me and to like you know, make a clone 2:49:23.040 --> 2:49:24.760 of it and try to look through it, at least 2:49:24.800 --> 2:49:27.480 it's deleted. That copy is no longer on my device. 2:49:27.600 --> 2:49:29.320 Even if they would have to go to like you know, 2:49:29.400 --> 2:49:31.960 get a warrant later, that is still great. It still 2:49:32.000 --> 2:49:34.920 gives me and my council time to respond and also 2:49:34.959 --> 2:49:37.360 allows me to access my right to do process. And 2:49:37.440 --> 2:49:39.320 I think so like these are like these three simple 2:49:39.400 --> 2:49:41.879 things I know that will give to link that our 2:49:42.000 --> 2:49:43.520 guide that kind of puts this all in a row 2:49:43.560 --> 2:49:46.600 and very plain language. We also have a Spanish language 2:49:46.640 --> 2:49:48.680 guide for it as well. But just to know that, 2:49:48.840 --> 2:49:51.360 like you know, these things are within our power. I 2:49:51.400 --> 2:49:53.440 think it's really easy to get tangled up in the 2:49:53.560 --> 2:49:56.360 idea of like abstract data and things that are really 2:49:56.400 --> 2:49:58.320 tough for us to always know when they're generated, like 2:49:58.360 --> 2:50:01.280 ad tracker data or you know, who is reselling or 2:50:01.360 --> 2:50:04.199 doing something with my period tracking apps. There are great 2:50:04.240 --> 2:50:06.920 options that are local only to your phone, like Yuki app. 2:50:07.120 --> 2:50:09.920 If you are concerned about that other apps seeing whether 2:50:09.959 --> 2:50:12.039 or not they use best practice of security. If they've 2:50:12.080 --> 2:50:14.320 responded and said like how they would respond to a 2:50:14.400 --> 2:50:15.000 legal request. 2:50:15.040 --> 2:50:15.520 That's awesome. 2:50:15.720 --> 2:50:18.240 I think that just sort of taking that uncertainty away 2:50:18.360 --> 2:50:21.280 is great because tracking your period is really important. As 2:50:21.400 --> 2:50:23.720 Crystal would tell you, it is an essential way that 2:50:23.760 --> 2:50:25.760 you're going to know how pregnant you are and find 2:50:25.879 --> 2:50:28.440 the option that's safest for your circumstances. So yeah, and 2:50:28.520 --> 2:50:30.520 that I'll pass to Crystal for anything else you think 2:50:30.640 --> 2:50:31.960 our folks should know before we depart. 2:50:32.200 --> 2:50:36.199 Yeah, tracking your period is important because if you don't 2:50:36.320 --> 2:50:40.520 know what's going on with your period and you get pregnant, 2:50:40.840 --> 2:50:41.879 it can delay your care. 2:50:42.640 --> 2:50:44.520 And you know, optimally you're. 2:50:44.360 --> 2:50:49.080 Getting the safest, quickest, most comfortable care for you, right, 2:50:49.320 --> 2:50:51.000 so it's really good to track that. 2:50:51.800 --> 2:50:52.560 I use Yuki. 2:50:52.840 --> 2:50:54.360 What I love about Yuki is that it has a 2:50:54.400 --> 2:50:59.040 pass code, and it stores everything locally and you can 2:50:59.120 --> 2:51:02.400 set to autoda your data and I love all of 2:51:02.440 --> 2:51:05.000 those things. So you know, and you know, I don't 2:51:05.120 --> 2:51:06.879 like using my paper calendar. If you love using your 2:51:06.879 --> 2:51:09.520 paper calendar, go use your paper camp, you know, whatever 2:51:09.640 --> 2:51:12.320 you want to do. But it is very important to 2:51:13.080 --> 2:51:15.760 know when your last period was because it can just 2:51:15.840 --> 2:51:18.600 make your care more timely. And that's really important given 2:51:18.800 --> 2:51:22.120 the abortion restrictions and the abortion bands. Now we are 2:51:22.200 --> 2:51:26.080 only you know, admittedly they're going to get worse. This 2:51:26.240 --> 2:51:28.560 is going to get less safe. There is going to 2:51:28.600 --> 2:51:32.120 be greater risk of criminalization. So when people call, when 2:51:32.160 --> 2:51:35.080 people call and they ask like can I access pills. 2:51:35.200 --> 2:51:38.720 Yes you can. You know, no matter what Trump does. 2:51:38.959 --> 2:51:42.600 You're going to be able to get abortion pills. There 2:51:42.640 --> 2:51:45.199 are countries all over the world that have total abortion 2:51:45.360 --> 2:51:47.199 bands and they have these abortion. 2:51:47.040 --> 2:51:50.280 Pills all the time. You know, it's not new in America. 2:51:51.160 --> 2:51:53.560 But you know, you do have to have a digital 2:51:53.600 --> 2:51:55.360 security plan while you're doing that, Like so, yes, you 2:51:55.400 --> 2:51:57.959 can order pills online, but yes, also have a digital 2:51:58.000 --> 2:51:59.840 security plan and keep this stuff in mind. It's really 2:52:00.080 --> 2:52:02.280 it's part of your healthcare plan now. 2:52:03.760 --> 2:52:08.320 Yeah, because you have the right to use safe, accessible, 2:52:09.040 --> 2:52:13.960 common sense like amazing technology products to actually obtain the 2:52:14.000 --> 2:52:17.200 abortion that you want. We really really do believe that 2:52:17.320 --> 2:52:20.200 like that part of autonomy. It includes digital autonomy as 2:52:20.200 --> 2:52:22.160 well as bottle of autonomy. They're all part and parsonally 2:52:22.200 --> 2:52:24.600 can't have one without the other. So thanks for having 2:52:24.680 --> 2:52:24.840 us on. 2:52:25.800 --> 2:52:26.800 Yeah, thanks theah. 2:52:27.760 --> 2:52:30.360 Yeah, and I want to close with one more thing 2:52:30.520 --> 2:52:33.119 that is related to this, but it's also what general advice. 2:52:33.160 --> 2:52:35.760 Don't talk to cops. Oh god, you know, I think 2:52:35.800 --> 2:52:37.200 that the common thing people say it is it is 2:52:37.280 --> 2:52:38.960 legal for them to lie to you, And that is true, 2:52:39.320 --> 2:52:40.960 but it's not just that as legal for them to 2:52:41.000 --> 2:52:43.160 lie to you. It is their job to lie to you. 2:52:43.480 --> 2:52:45.560 You cannot trust a single word that comes out of 2:52:45.600 --> 2:52:47.880 their mouths because it is their job to get you 2:52:47.959 --> 2:52:50.520 to confess to a crime or to get information out 2:52:50.560 --> 2:52:52.959 of you. They'll let you confess your crime, so invoke 2:52:53.000 --> 2:52:56.160 your right to remain silent, get a fucking lawyer, don't 2:52:56.360 --> 2:52:58.680 talk to them. And you know, listen, this is advice. 2:52:58.720 --> 2:53:00.840 It's not just coming from me, right like this, This 2:53:01.240 --> 2:53:04.000 is the advice you will get from every single person 2:53:04.080 --> 2:53:05.840 who does who does any kind of from offense. This 2:53:05.879 --> 2:53:07.280 is what you'll get from a public defender. This is 2:53:07.320 --> 2:53:10.080 what you'll get from anyone who has even sort of 2:53:10.200 --> 2:53:12.560 interacted with the legal system. And this is also true 2:53:12.600 --> 2:53:14.480 even if they tell you, oh, you're not a suspect, 2:53:14.520 --> 2:53:16.360 you're just a blah blah blah. We're trying to get information. 2:53:17.280 --> 2:53:20.240 It is their job to lie to you. Think about 2:53:20.280 --> 2:53:23.199 it roughly the same way of like if you're dealing 2:53:23.280 --> 2:53:25.640 with like a country secret police. How much information would 2:53:25.680 --> 2:53:28.800 you give them? The answer is do not. Simply do 2:53:28.959 --> 2:53:29.360 not do this. 2:53:29.720 --> 2:53:32.320 Exactly, and you know, no, no matter what that there 2:53:32.360 --> 2:53:34.760 are people again like Crystal Sapho will support you. Yeah, 2:53:34.879 --> 2:53:38.279 there are amazing teams across the United States, from medical 2:53:38.320 --> 2:53:40.160 support to legal support. We're there for you and they 2:53:40.200 --> 2:53:43.800 would all, I think wholeheartedly endorse as do we. Yes, 2:53:43.920 --> 2:53:45.920 please do not talk to cops. And that's a great 2:53:45.959 --> 2:53:46.440 note to end on. 2:53:46.720 --> 2:53:46.920 Yeah. 2:53:47.800 --> 2:53:49.720 Yeah, well, thank you to you both for coming on. 2:53:50.120 --> 2:53:52.400 And maybe we live to see a world better than 2:53:52.480 --> 2:53:54.320 this one where you could just do this stuff and 2:53:54.400 --> 2:53:55.520 not have to have any concerns. 2:53:55.680 --> 2:53:59.600 Yeah, one day, but until then we can do this 2:54:00.040 --> 2:54:00.640 very securely. 2:54:01.400 --> 2:54:03.640 Yes, we got our own backs. We can do this together. 2:54:04.800 --> 2:54:05.680 Thanks for having us on. 2:54:08.320 --> 2:54:11.440 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2:54:11.560 --> 2:54:13.440 from now until the heat death of the universe. 2:54:13.879 --> 2:54:14.480 It could happen. 2:54:14.520 --> 2:54:16.360 Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 2:54:16.560 --> 2:54:19.600 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:54:19.720 --> 2:54:23.240 coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 2:54:23.360 --> 2:54:26.160 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:54:26.680 --> 2:54:28.560 You can now find sources for it could happen here, 2:54:28.640 --> 2:54:30.440 listed directly in episode descriptions. 2:54:30.800 --> 2:54:31.560 Thanks for listening,