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Speaker 1: Also media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here, a show about things

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Speaker 2: falling apart. We are back from our little break, and

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Speaker 2: today I'm joined with Robert Evans to discuss fascism.

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Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, yeah, I'm here. We're talking fascism. Listeners,

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Speaker 1: excuse me. I have a Citus infection. So that's why

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Speaker 1: it sound this way.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's why you sound like that. Uh huh.

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Speaker 3: That sucks life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it might not suck as much as what

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Speaker 2: I had to do last week, which is watch this

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Speaker 2: six part documentary about the twenty twenty five for Trump

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Speaker 2: election campaign. God well, the art of the surge.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Overall, it was actually pretty boring. They were obviously trying

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Speaker 2: to edit it like a succession episode. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: really obnoxious. There is some insight into like the inner

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Speaker 2: workings of the Trump team, like watching him and his

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Speaker 2: team react to the Kamala Harris DNC speech and like

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Speaker 2: workshop counter messaging was actually interesting, and the doc does

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Speaker 2: show kind of Musk's influence steadily ramping up starting in July.

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Speaker 2: The only time you see Trump advance together is after

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Speaker 2: Trump's ABC debate, when JD like preps him for the

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Speaker 2: Spin room. That's the only time, Wow, we see them

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Speaker 2: in a act.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that makes sense, Like I wouldn't want

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Speaker 1: to be in a room with JD vans more than

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Speaker 1: I had to be, although the fact that he does

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Speaker 1: want to be in a room with Musk is bafflt.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and actually Musk and JD get along quite well

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Speaker 2: in the interactions that are seeing in the documentary, Malania,

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Speaker 2: Trump never appears once, not a single time.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's good to know that they've they've managed to

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Speaker 1: put together a functional throuble.

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Speaker 2: Ooh, don't like that. Don't like that at all? First, buddy,

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Speaker 2: the ikes. My biggest takeaway from this documentary is that

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Speaker 2: it just showed how much his rallies are a religious

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Speaker 2: experience for his supporters like deeply, deeply religious, especially the

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Speaker 2: Butler Pennsylvania rallies, where everyone talks about it like they

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Speaker 2: would like like a genuine like limit experience or religious experience.

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Speaker 2: Right now this episode, I actually I want to focus

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Speaker 2: on the rhetoric employed at these rallies in attempts to

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Speaker 2: label Trump a fascists. There's been a lot of discussion

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Speaker 2: on like Trump's authoritarian and dictatorial desires and tendencies and

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Speaker 2: expressions of those fears in particular were not enough to

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Speaker 2: persuade the majority of voters against Trump, let alone safe

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Speaker 2: and Republican support towards Harris and we on this show

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Speaker 2: have not talked much about the escalation of rhetoric used

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Speaker 2: by Trump and his allies this campaign cycle, with the

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Speaker 2: Biden administration's horrific border policies and the enabling of Israel's

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Speaker 2: genocidal actions in Gaza drawing a great deal of our

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Speaker 2: attention in the past few months. But now I do

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Speaker 2: want to draw attention to the ethno nationalist framing that

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Speaker 2: has become all too common, especially with the Democrats just

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Speaker 2: complete submission to Trump and the GOP's distinct focus on

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Speaker 2: immigration as the top issue facing America. So part of

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Speaker 2: what I'm gonna do here is I've outlined a few

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Speaker 2: clips and some quotes I'm trying. I tried to limit

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Speaker 2: the clips because I know no one wants to hear

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Speaker 2: Trump and these guys talk for too long, but I

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Speaker 2: will place some And Robert, you've spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: your time thinking about fascism in the past few years

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Speaker 2: and reading about fascism, so I'm certainly curious on your

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Speaker 2: thoughts on some of these clips and quotes. As we'll

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Speaker 2: kind of go through like three specific rallies, mostly great

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Speaker 2: and outline what type of rhetoric they are using and

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Speaker 2: what it kind of points to historically. Now, one of

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Speaker 2: the reoccurring phrases at Trump rallies this cycle was that

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Speaker 2: the United States has become an occupied territory. Here's Trump

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Speaker 2: invoking that language at a rally in Atlanta a week

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Speaker 2: before the election.

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Speaker 4: But it will soon be an occupied country no longer.

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Speaker 4: November fifth, twenty twenty four, will be Liberation Day in America,

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Speaker 4: and during day one, I will launch the largest deportation

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Speaker 4: program in American history.

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Speaker 5: We're going to get these criminals out.

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Speaker 4: I will rescue every city in town that has been

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Speaker 4: invaded and conquered.

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Speaker 5: These towns have been conquered, you know, they have been invaded.

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Speaker 4: And can you imagine, just as though a foreign enemy

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Speaker 4: was invading, a military was invading.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I will rescue every city in town that has

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Speaker 2: been invaded and.

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Speaker 6: Conquered, conquered.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just as though an enemy, a foreign enemy was invading.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's I don't even know what to

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Speaker 1: say about that. It's like that's textbook fascist shit, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, among other things, ramping everyone up to justify,

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Speaker 1: you know, at least the potential for violence against migrants.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's it's self defense, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I like to focus first on the Madison

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Speaker 2: Square Garden rally, certainly the Puerto Rico floating Island of garbage.

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Speaker 2: Comments from the roast comedian got a lot of media attention,

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Speaker 2: but what got less coverage was the much more historically

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Speaker 2: worrying statements made by those within Trump's circle. Let's start

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Speaker 2: with Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller.

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Speaker 7: America is for Americans and Americans only.

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Speaker 2: So, Robert, does that phrase remind you of any other

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Speaker 2: phrases that have been used over time?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like one people, one vulc one Reich, Right,

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Speaker 1: I guess, yeah. I mean again, like I don't even

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Speaker 1: know what to say at this point, right, Like we're

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Speaker 1: it's so obvious. When I started in the warning people

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Speaker 1: about fascism game, you had to like explain a lot

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Speaker 1: of history and then sort of like walk in. Here's

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Speaker 1: how you know this is a sign post. I mean,

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Speaker 1: when someone doesn't eighty eight this is what it means

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Speaker 1: or whatever, and we're so far past that, like.

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Speaker 2: Well, and and specifically this one invokes the Germany is

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Speaker 2: for the Germans, which is ya a phrase that is

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Speaker 2: banned in Germany now due to its use during the

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Speaker 2: Nazi era.

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Speaker 6: That gives us something to look forward to now.

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Speaker 2: In a rant advocating for election denial in the case

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Speaker 2: of Trump losing the election, Tucker Carlson referred to Kamala

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Speaker 2: Harris as a Samoan Malaysian low IQ. This is just

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Speaker 2: kind of baffling old school racism. Yeah, I honestly didn't

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Speaker 2: expect this type of thing to have such a resurgence

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Speaker 2: the past year.

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Speaker 1: More esoteric than I expected.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's frankly odd.

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Speaker 8: Now.

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Speaker 2: Tucker also spoke about how the elites are trying to

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Speaker 2: replace the population and the culture and customs of this country,

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Speaker 2: just clearly invoking the white nationalists a great replacement ideology

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Speaker 2: that he kind of previously spread on his Fox show in.

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Speaker 9: A country that's been taken over by a leadership class

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Speaker 9: that actually despises them and their values and their history

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Speaker 9: and their culture and their customs, really hates them to

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Speaker 9: the point that it's trying to replace them.

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Speaker 2: Very very clear stuff. And Don Junior invoked very similar rhetoric,

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Speaker 2: saying that the government no longer puts Americans first and

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Speaker 2: that the Democratic Party would rather quote replace Americans with

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Speaker 2: people who will be reliable voters on glob Well, and again,

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Speaker 2: this is types of stuff that we talked about in

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Speaker 2: like twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. It's like Laurens Southern YouTube videos.

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Speaker 1: And like if there's one thing that dims are bad at,

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Speaker 1: it's getting reliable voters.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Like this is the type of stuff that was

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Speaker 2: so that was much more niche. And then you had

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Speaker 2: a few like four Chan guys start like doing a

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Speaker 2: writing on Tucker's show, and now it's being used at

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Speaker 2: disappoint the president's rallies.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now, when Trump finally took the stage he mirrored Tucker's

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Speaker 2: Kamala Harris IQ comments, saying everyone knows she's a very

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Speaker 2: low IQ individual. Like usual, he called the press the

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Speaker 2: enemy of the people. Uh huh, But he went on

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Speaker 2: to describe the true enemy mastermining the fall of America

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Speaker 2: the quote radical left machine that has taken control of

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Speaker 2: the Democratic Party.

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Speaker 4: It's just this amorphous group of people.

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Speaker 3: But they're smart, and they're vicious, and we.

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Speaker 4: Have to defeat them. And when I say the enemy

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Speaker 4: from within, the other side goes crazy, becomes a sound maho.

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Speaker 5: How can he say, no.

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Speaker 4: They've done very bad things to this country. They are

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Speaker 4: indeed the enemy from within.

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Speaker 2: And I do find it interesting the way he describes

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Speaker 2: them as like a morphous Yeah, it's not like a

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Speaker 2: distinct sect. It's not like a fups of people. It's

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Speaker 2: this like a MorphOS almost like like a like like

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Speaker 2: ethereal force that can like inhabit people.

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Speaker 1: You need that because, that, among other things, allows you

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Speaker 1: to refocus the lens on anyone. Yeah, right, Like you

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Speaker 1: need the opportunity to keep shifting because eventually, if you're

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Speaker 1: just actually focusing on a real discrete group of human beings,

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Speaker 1: you get rid of those people. You throw them in

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Speaker 1: prison or whatever, and then you don't have an enemy anymore,

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Speaker 1: and you always need that.

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Speaker 2: And do you know what we need right.

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Speaker 6: Now, Robert Products and Services.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we do need to go on a quick break,

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Speaker 2: and then I'm going to come back to talk about Dluth, Georgia.

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Speaker 2: So not good, great, all right, we are back. I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna now turn to a turning point action event on

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Speaker 2: October twenty third in Dluth, Georgia, which I actually just

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Speaker 2: visited for the first time. I went ice skating in Deluth, Georgia,

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Speaker 2: and to kind of get a sense of what this town.

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Speaker 2: It's not even really a suburb of Atlanta, it's it's

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Speaker 2: so far north as I was, isis skating there.

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure.

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Speaker 2: Like a Christian cult showed up and they had all

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Speaker 2: their members also ice skated, because they were all wearing

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Speaker 2: like the same outfits they hold, like very specific like headscarves.

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Speaker 2: A few a few of like the more like youth

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Speaker 2: pastory types, had like you know, like christ As King

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Speaker 2: type puddies. But it definitely wasn't like a regular church.

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Speaker 2: It was. It was more of some kind of like

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Speaker 2: evangelical like cultish formation based on like the uniform clothing.

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Speaker 2: So that's Deluth, Georgia.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now, Charlie Kirk gave a fifteen minute speech which he

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Speaker 2: closed with a spiritual appeal, saying, quote, you have a

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Speaker 2: biblical obligation to engage in this election and to fight evil.

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Speaker 2: The Democratic Party supports everything God hates unquote. Kirk then

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Speaker 2: called this election a quote unquote spiritual battle and in

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Speaker 2: and finally he said, quote, this is a Christian state.

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Speaker 2: I want to see that continue. So none of this

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Speaker 2: is like New Right. This is kind of at this

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Speaker 2: point bog standard Christian nationalism. But this is a rally

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Speaker 2: of about ten thousand people. It's not an official Trump rally.

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Speaker 2: It is a turning point action rally that Trump did

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Speaker 2: speak at. But I like to hone in once again

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Speaker 2: on Tucker Carlson's comments. Now, he called this the first

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Speaker 2: speech he's ever given at a political rally. Now, both

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Speaker 2: me and you saw Tucker speak at the RNC. I

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Speaker 2: guess he kind of views the R and C is

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Speaker 2: a little bit different from like a standard like kind

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Speaker 2: of more like a campaign rally type event. But Tucker

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Speaker 2: called Trump a triumph of the human spirit, Christ, a

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Speaker 2: triumph of the will. You could say, yeah, yes, like,

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Speaker 2: what's another word for the human spirit?

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Speaker 6: Uh huh.

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Speaker 2: But now I'm gonna play Actually, this is the lunge

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Speaker 2: cliff we have just because it's so fascinating and I

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Speaker 2: have a lot that kind of written on this already.

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna play this clip.

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Speaker 9: There has to be a point at which Dad comes home.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Dad comes home and he's pissed.

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Speaker 2: Dad is pissed.

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Speaker 3: He's not vengeful.

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Speaker 9: He loves his children, disobedient as they may be, he loves.

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Speaker 3: Them because there's children. They live in his house.

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Speaker 9: But he's very disappointed in their behavior and he's gonna

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Speaker 9: have to let them know. He's gonna have to get

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Speaker 9: to your room right now and think about what you did.

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Speaker 9: And when Dad gets home, you know what he says.

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Speaker 9: You've been a bad girl. You've been a bad little girl,

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Speaker 9: and you're getting a vigorous spanking right now. And no,

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Speaker 9: it's not gonna hurt me more than it hurts you.

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Speaker 3: No, it's not. I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 9: That's gonna hurt you a lot more than it hurts me.

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Speaker 3: And you earned this.

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Speaker 9: You're getting a vigorous spanking because you've been a bad girl.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's just real sick and deranged. I mean you

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Speaker 1: can tell he really gets off on spanking little girls.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like beyond like Tucker is like shown depravity here.

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Speaker 2: I also just find like the willingness of the audience

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Speaker 2: just to eat this stuff up and like really enjoy

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Speaker 2: it to like similarly be like both like fascinating and

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Speaker 2: like a show of like a certain level of a depravement.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's this, it's leaning into what has always been

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Speaker 1: the core of like the most militant conservatism, which is

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Speaker 1: the like strict Christian conservative parents rights people sure be

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Speaker 1: like my children are my property, and also the right

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Speaker 1: way to parents is like a dictator.

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Speaker 2: I mean this is like the most like openly Freudian

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Speaker 2: display of American fascism that I've ever seen before.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, oh yeah, It's amazing, this.

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Speaker 2: Idea of like a harsh father whose love is replaced

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Speaker 2: with fearful authority. It's really important that like America is

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Speaker 2: framed as a bad girl. There's this like feminizing of

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Speaker 2: the masses. Right, America is not like a bad little boy.

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Speaker 2: A bad girl is like really important. Carlson's almost invoking

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Speaker 2: like an incestuous like domination. Yeah, it's it's quite sick.

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Speaker 2: And like I had to actually like like look up

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Speaker 2: stuff on this because I'm like, I know Freud and

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Speaker 2: a few others have like written about this type of

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Speaker 2: thing before, and specifically Adorno has written about this in

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Speaker 2: an essay called Freudian Theory and the Pattern of Fascist

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Speaker 2: Propaganda that I'd like to read just a few brief

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Speaker 2: quotes from.

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Speaker 1: Oh I love some Adorno, Yes, please.

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Speaker 2: Quote There is either no mention of love whatsoever between members,

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Speaker 2: or it's expressed only in a sublimated and indirect way

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Speaker 2: through the mediation of some religious image. In the love

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Speaker 2: of whom the members unite and who's all embracing love

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Speaker 2: they are supposed to imitate in their attitude towards each other.

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Speaker 2: It seems significant that in today's society, with its artificially

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Speaker 2: integrated fascist masses, reference to love is almost completely excluded.

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Speaker 2: Hitler shunned the traditional role of the loving father and

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Speaker 2: replaced it entirely by the negative one of threatening authority unquote.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to pivot to Freud here, specifically his essay

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Speaker 2: on group behavior and how individuals regressed become part of masses.

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Speaker 2: He writes about how a leader of a cult can

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Speaker 2: exploit psychological shortcuts in its followers to embody this like

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Speaker 2: group ideal that governs their ego as a substitution quote,

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Speaker 2: the leader of the group is the dreaded primal Father.

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Speaker 2: The group still wishes to be governed by unrestricted force.

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Speaker 2: It has an extreme passion for authority, It has a

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Speaker 2: thirst for obedience. The primal Father is the group ideal.

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Speaker 2: This is like so displayed what Tucker is doing like

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Speaker 2: this is just exactly what it is. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: reminds me of the other quote about how people seek

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Speaker 2: out salvation in subjugation. And I'll leave just one more

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Speaker 2: quote from Adorno here quote. Fascist agitation is centered in

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Speaker 2: the idea of the leader, no matter whether he actually

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Speaker 2: leads or is only the mandatory of group interests. Because

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Speaker 2: only the psychological image of the leader is apt to

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Speaker 2: reanimate the idea of the all powerful and threatening primal Father.

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Speaker 2: The formation of the imagery of an omnipotent and unbridled

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Speaker 2: father figure, by far transcending the individual father and therefore

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Speaker 2: apt to be enlargened into a group ego, is the

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Speaker 2: only way to promulgate the passive masochistic attitude to whoms

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Speaker 2: one's will has to be surrendered, an attitude required of

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Speaker 2: the fascist follower the more his political behavior becomes irreconcilable

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Speaker 2: with his own rational interests as a private person, as

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Speaker 2: well as those of the group or class to which

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Speaker 2: he actually belongs. The followers reawakened irrationality is therefore quite

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Speaker 2: rational from the leader's point of view. It necessarily has

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Speaker 2: to be a conviction which is not based on perception

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Speaker 2: and reasoning, but on an erotic tie. I'm sure someone

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Speaker 2: more skilled than me could write like a whole dissertation

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Speaker 2: just on Tucker's speech here, because like it invokes so

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Speaker 2: many of these ideas and like without trying to this

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Speaker 2: is always like subconscious on their part, Like they're pulling

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Speaker 2: on these things like specifically, like like the passive masochistic attitude.

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Speaker 2: It's like their submission to Trump is like this deep

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Speaker 2: masochistic urge.

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Speaker 1: There's another thing in there that I think is important,

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Speaker 1: especially because I'm hearing a lot of people talking about like, well,

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Speaker 1: once Trump pushes through his tariffs or does this or

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Speaker 1: does that, the horrible negative consequences of this will like

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Speaker 1: absolutely destroy the GOP right. That'll finally bring them down

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Speaker 1: to me let them, you know, no, And one of

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Speaker 1: the things that Dorino says there is that, like the

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Speaker 1: leader doesn't even need to be bro and that's an

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Speaker 1: underdiscussed aspect of psychology and fascist states. One of the

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Speaker 1: one of the phenomenons within Nazi Germany was, you know,

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Speaker 1: there were a number of Nazi policies, Hitler's policies that

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Speaker 1: had serious negative effects on people in Germany. And one

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Speaker 1: of the most common phrases that you would hear from

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Speaker 1: them was if only Hitler knew, right, you know, you

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Speaker 1: usually deployed when like you were dealing with a government

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Speaker 1: agency that was headed by just like an absolute criminal

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Speaker 1: that you know, Hitler had appointed that like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: Hitler doesn't know that the Gestapo are doing this, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, he would stop this, he'd put a stop

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Speaker 1: to this if he knew, he wouldn't let this happen.

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Speaker 6: Right, That's what That's what Trump's believers.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's what the American people writ

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Speaker 1: large may never buy into Trump the way that the

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Speaker 1: Germans bought into Hitler, but Trump's supporters are certainly already there.

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Speaker 2: And this is something that Tucker saw in the audience

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Speaker 2: when he started on this rant, he started repeating certain

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Speaker 2: phrases because it got such a good reaction from the crowd. Like,

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Speaker 2: this wasn't like planned, it was. It was him reading

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Speaker 2: the crowd and realizing, oh, they really like this. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to keep doing it, and specifically this. This is

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Speaker 2: also how he closed his speech. And I don't believe

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Speaker 2: this was this was planned. I believe this is because

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Speaker 2: of the reaction that the crowd had previously. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to play the very end of his speech where he

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Speaker 2: basically endorses like a coup. If Harris actually wins.

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Speaker 9: If they do all of that, they need to lose.

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Speaker 9: And at the end of all of it, when they

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Speaker 9: tell you they've won, no, you can look them straight

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Speaker 9: in the face and say, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: Dad's home and he's pissed.

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Speaker 6: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: They love it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, of course, all they have ever wanted

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Speaker 1: is to be forced to be right, you know, and

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Speaker 1: to the extent that reality disagrees with their beliefs, which

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Speaker 1: it usually does, to be able to beat reality into place,

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Speaker 1: and at least continue to trick themselves until they die, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's all the fascists, I know, you know, the older people,

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Speaker 1: many of whom raised me. That's what it really was

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Speaker 1: about for them was never having to acknowledge the mistakes

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Speaker 1: that they had made, the things that they had supported

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Speaker 1: that didn't work out. Like it was a rage at

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Speaker 1: the people who insisted on pointing out, Hey, you said

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Speaker 1: this was going to happen, and the opposite happened. So

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Speaker 1: that promise of like even if they win, Dad's going

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Speaker 1: to come home and beat them into submission is deeply attractive.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and even if it hurts your own like

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Speaker 2: self interests, your only class interests, right, And it's like

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Speaker 2: replacing all of the anguish you have as like an

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Speaker 2: individual person and like replacing your own ego with the

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Speaker 2: embodiment of this group ideal that is just someone else.

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Speaker 2: Like this is why so many people have like dedicated

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Speaker 2: their lives to Trump. Like you look at all these

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Speaker 2: like like boomers and even some like gen X people

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Speaker 2: at these Trump rallies who like Trump has like become

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Speaker 2: like their personality. He's fully occupied their life. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: like that's that's similar into the way that like occult

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Speaker 2: leader has like how Freud wrote about it. Freud wrote

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Speaker 2: all that stuff like in the nineteen twenties before before,

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Speaker 2: like Hitler really rose to power, but he could like

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Speaker 2: sense what was like coming in Germany. He could he

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Speaker 2: could feel it. Yeah, And what I'm gonna feel right

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Speaker 2: now is the products and services that support this podcast.

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Speaker 6: Huzzah, all right.

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Speaker 3: We are back.

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Speaker 2: I like to close by talking about Aurora, Colorado.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 2: A tactic the Trump campaign consistently used this past year

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Speaker 2: is to hone in on particular small communities as being

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Speaker 2: taken over by immigrants who they would call like criminal migrants.

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Speaker 2: The best known example of this is what happened in Springfield, Ohio,

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Speaker 2: but this also happened in the Denver suburb Aurora, Colorado,

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Speaker 2: after a video went viral showing men walking through an

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Speaker 2: apartment complex holding firearms. A false claim then spread that

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Speaker 2: a Venezuelan gang was forcibly taking over entire buildings in

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Speaker 2: this city. At a Trump rally in Aurora on October eleventh,

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Speaker 2: massive banners on both sides of the stage read Deport

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Speaker 2: illegals now and end Migrant crime. On either side of

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Speaker 2: the podium, there were large mugshots of Latino men with

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Speaker 2: text that reads occupied America. Steven Miller, now Chief Advisor

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Speaker 2: for Immigration Policy, takes the stage and says that the

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Speaker 2: patriots gathered at this event can quote end the invasion

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Speaker 2: and end the occupation by voting for Trump.

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Speaker 7: Look at all these photos around me. Are these the

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Speaker 7: kids you grew up with? Are these the neighbors you

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Speaker 7: were raised with? Are these the neighbors that you want

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Speaker 7: in your city? No, these are the criminal migrants the

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Speaker 7: Kamala Harris brought into your community.

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Speaker 2: Again, it's all it's all pretty brazen stuff.

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Speaker 8: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we call that brazen, but like that's

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Speaker 1: just mainstream now. Yes, Like the fight to look at

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Speaker 1: migrants as human beings and have any kind of sane justice,

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Speaker 1: you know, for undocumented migrants in this country has has

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Speaker 1: been completely botched.

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Speaker 2: There's something about like the suburban neighborhood idea that is

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Speaker 2: more like disturbing to me, Like like pointing to actual

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Speaker 2: pictures of people being Are these the kids you grew

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Speaker 2: up with?

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Speaker 6: Yep?

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Speaker 2: And like the fight to like preserve this nostalgic idea

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Speaker 2: of like your childhood neighborhood, it's just so dark to

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Speaker 2: me now. Invoking great replacement framing, Miller says that Kamala

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Speaker 2: Harris was bringing these immigrants into your communities and that

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Speaker 2: they are now taking over America.

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Speaker 7: We don't need in this country homeless migrants, criminal migrants.

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Speaker 7: We don't need migrants consuming and depleting our public resources,

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Speaker 7: overwhelming our public schools, overwhelming our hospital, taking over our

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Speaker 7: apartment buildings, and yes, murdering innocent Americans. You have a

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Speaker 7: right to love the community you grew up in. You

439
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 7: have a right to love your neighbors as they are.

440
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 7: You have a right to want a country that is

441
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 7: of by and for Americans and only Americans.

442
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 2: Again with that, like, you have a right to love

443
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 2: the community you grew up in. And then of course

444
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: like Americans for Americans. And Miller later closed his speech

445
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 2: by yelling, America will be reclaimed for Americans.

446
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 6: Oh gosh, yep.

447
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: I mean, look, these people suffered no consequences for what

448
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 1: they did the last time, so they're going to keep

449
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: pushing further. It's done nothing but work for them. No

450
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: one has ever taught them any lesson that, like, hey,

451
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: you've gone too far and now there are going to

452
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: be negative consequences. That hasn't happened. So yeah, they're just

453
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: going to keep getting more and more masked off. This

454
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: is where they've wanted to be a miller, certainly from

455
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: the beginning, and.

456
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: They've used these past four years as prep work to

457
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: build them to this point. And of course none of

458
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: what they're saying is like real in terms of like

459
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: you know, buildings being taken over the famously pro Harris

460
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: liberal extremist group. The Aurora Police Department have continued to

461
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 2: clarify that no apartment buildings have been taken over by

462
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: any gangs, nor have tenants been paying gang members rent money.

463
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 2: According to the police, none of the armed men seen

464
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: in that viral video, who have all been since identified

465
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 2: or arrested, none of them have any ties to Venezuelan

466
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 2: gangs or organized crime. What happened was slumlords spread a

467
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 2: false story about their apartment complex being taken over by

468
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: a gang as a way to get out of doing

469
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: repairs on the property, saying it was too dangerous to

470
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: to the premises.

471
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 6: Jesus.

472
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 2: It was all like a fucking scam by slum lords

473
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 2: so that they wouldn't have to fix their own apartment building.

474
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 2: Denver seven found code enforcement and inspection records dating back

475
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: to twenty twenty that show numerous violations prior to the

476
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: influx of Venezuelan immigrants in the Denver metro area. The

477
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: complex is now under new care, but a similar false

478
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 2: tale of an apartment building in Chicago being taken over

479
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: by immigrant gangs went viral in September due to the

480
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: efforts of libs of TikTok and Elon Musk, with libs

481
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: of TikTok saying, quote, first they did this in Aurora, Colorado,

482
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 2: and now Chicago, which city will be next? This invasion

483
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 2: happened on Kamala's watch unquote. The last thing I will

484
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: mention here is all of the blood comments that Trump

485
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 2: has been making the past year. In intervery last year,

486
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: Trump said that immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country.

487
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 2: It's so bad, and people are coming in with disease,

488
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: people are coming in with every possible thing that you

489
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 2: could have unquote. This clearly invoked like blood framing used

490
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: by Hitler and Nazis, and like eugenics in general, and

491
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: this is rhetoric that he's continuing to use for the present.

492
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: In an interview last month, Trump so that immigrants are

493
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 2: naturally murderers because quote it's in their genes. We've got

494
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: a lot of bad genes in our country right now.

495
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of what this comes down to

496
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: is that after World War Two, we really needed to

497
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: execute a lot more people, you know, like you could

498
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: have quashed the eugenics movement. We needed to go after

499
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people in the US. There were a

500
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: lot of American fascists involved in eugenics, and after Treblinka

501
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: and Auschwitz, we really just should have cleaned house, and

502
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: instead we let all of these people get into think tanks.

503
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to close with a quote from The Atlantic

504
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: here quote. When Trump was swaying to music at a

505
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: surreal rally, he did so in front of a huge slogan,

506
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: Trump was right about everything. This is the language borrow

507
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: directly from Mussolini, the Italian fascist. Soon after the rally,

508
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 2: the scholar Ruth ben Gate posted a photograph of a

509
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: building in Mussolini's Italy displaying the slogan Mussolini is always right.

510
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 6: Uh huh.

511
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: And that reminded me of what you said earlier about

512
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 2: how these people just always wanted to be right.

513
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's that's the that's the core of it.

514
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 2: And similarly, like people can surrender their own individual ego

515
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: and substitute it with this image of Trump right, Trump

516
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: was right about everything.

517
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 8: Yep.

518
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: Anyway, this is this is kind of what I wanted

519
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: to put together, just focusing on on all of these things,

520
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 2: because I mean, as much as you know, foreign policy

521
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: in America is always kind of fucked. Domestic policy, I think,

522
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 2: does often get changed based on who is in office,

523
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: and this is what we're going to be dealing with

524
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: these four years, especially with Miller taking a larger and

525
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: larger role inside the White House.

526
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: We sure are, So everybody buckle up.

527
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 5: Hello and welcome to AKAP and Here I am Andrew Sage.

528
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 5: I run andrewsm Ova on YouTube. I'm joined by the

529
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 5: one and.

530
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: Only Garrison Davis. Hello.

531
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 5: Hello, Hello, you don't sound p secuarly festive.

532
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 2: You know, it's a it's been a long week. This

533
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: is the last workday of election week when we're recording this.

534
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: I just returned from my cabin in the woods, which

535
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: I which I got to kind of watch the election unfold.

536
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: So now I am back in the real world, not

537
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: just hiding up in the mountains of Georgia. So it

538
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: feels slightly worse, but we we carry on.

539
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 5: As you mentioned a cabin in the woods, it actually

540
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 5: reminds me of this movie that came out to Netflix

541
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 5: a little while ago. If you've seen it, Leave the World.

542
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: Behind, Yes, I I've seen that.

543
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 5: Yes, it's it's pretty after You're in a cabin and

544
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 5: all this was going on.

545
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, we actually talked about that movie earlier on

546
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: this on this show and some conspiracy theories around it.

547
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh, the Obama connection.

548
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right.

549
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: You understand, you're already receiving the messages.

550
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 3: You already know.

551
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 5: Exactly. But we're not focused on.

552
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: The US for this episode, thank goodness.

553
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 5: Instead, we're going to be going back into the past

554
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 5: and the present as well, because the struggle really doesn't end,

555
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 5: and taking a look at the struggle of the Mapuche

556
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 5: in Chile and Argentina. I'd actually mentioned them in my

557
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 5: exploration of Latin American anarchisms that you know, they would

558
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 5: need their own episode. So here we are taking a

559
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 5: look at everything that they've been up to. And it's

560
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 5: really thanks to the work of Fello anarchists m good

561
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 5: Hawk and John Sevreno and there that I've been able

562
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 5: to put together this illucidation of indigenous anarchist history. So

563
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 5: the lands that now bear the titles of Chile and

564
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 5: Argentina have long held the Mapuche people long before borders

565
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 5: were drawn, long before the world learned to cage the wild.

566
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 5: The land itself is considered while mapoo, and it's deeply

567
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 5: entwined with the identity of the Mapuche people. While poo

568
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 5: is of course not just a geographical term, is also

569
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 5: a spiritual one. It's a tapestry of their histories and

570
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 5: their dreams, and also their view of the world through

571
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 5: a lens of reciprocity, because the Uche do acknowledge their

572
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 5: kinship with the land, the rivers, the mountains, and that

573
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 5: worldview that they hold and have traditionally held. Rather champions

574
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 5: balance and harmony and respect for all forms of life,

575
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 5: which is what has been fuel in their ongoing against occupation.

576
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 5: So in a sense, the Mapuche struggle echoes an anarchist

577
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 5: ethos of autonomy and mutual aid. But I wouldn't cau

578
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 5: as far as to call them anarchists, you know, I mean,

579
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 5: they have a very specific cultural and historical and spiritual

580
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 5: context that is distinct from anarchists. Thought. Despite these similarities

581
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 5: and overlaps in there so s, they will be exploring

582
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 5: the history, people, and struggles of all Mapou that have

583
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 5: shaped the Mapuche experience now. Ancient archaeological finds from tools

584
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 5: to pottery have suggested that the Mapuche may have settled

585
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 5: in present day southern Chile and Argentina as far back

586
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 5: twenty five hundred to three thousand years ago. Genetic and

587
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 5: linguistic research connects the Mapuche lineage to other indigenous groups

588
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 5: across the Andes, meaning that their ancestors may have migrated

589
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 5: down the western spin of South America in waves, adapt

590
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 5: into the rainforests, coastlines, and valleys of what's now one Mapu.

591
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 5: Historically and currently, the Mapuch spoken Mapudungun, and the language

592
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 5: itself carries aspects of their cultural identity, others to be expected.

593
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 5: Mapudungun is a polysynthetic language, meaning its words can be

594
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 5: formed by combining smaller parts to reflect complex ideas. Mapuche

595
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 5: itself combines Mapu meaning land and Chay meaning people. Sapuch

596
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 5: lived on the border of the Incan Empire, meaning that

597
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 5: they were in contact with centralized state organizations and hierarchical societies.

598
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 5: I would have chosen to differentiate themselves and the societies

599
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 5: from these status peoples, So how do they do so exactly?

600
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 5: The Puschi way of life would have revolved around, as

601
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 5: I said, a deep respective for kinship, communal responsibility, and

602
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 5: spiritual stewardship of the land. The society itself was based

603
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 5: around the loaf or family based communal unit, each love

604
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 5: holding shared responsibility over a specific territory, ensuring the one's

605
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 5: personal wealth doesn't override the interest and well being of

606
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 5: the environment in the community. The love wasn't just limited

607
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 5: to the people of that family based community unit, it

608
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 5: also incorporated the ecosystem. That unit, incombust and occupied nature

609
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 5: was in a sense part of the family. Rivers, mountains, forests,

610
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 5: and other animals were treated as living relatives with the

611
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 5: spirit and agency that desiled respect. In the Mapuche world view,

612
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 5: all beings and elements possess nuen, the life force, and

613
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 5: so they have to be respected. And that police system

614
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 5: also leads the mapootated practice a sustainable use of resources

615
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 5: and intergenerational land care. And it also compels there as

616
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 5: I said, resistance to colonial resource extraction, deforestation, and industrial expansion.

617
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 5: In Mapuchev's spirituality, Juanumapu or The land of the ancestors

618
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 5: refers to the spiritual realm connected to the physical world.

619
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 5: They've traditionally believed that the spirits of past generations inhabit

620
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 5: this realm, offering guidance and protection the matches or spiritual leaders,

621
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 5: so as the bridges between these worlds. So they're supposed

622
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 5: to do things that conduct ceremonies, heal the sick, and

623
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 5: connect with the ancestral spirits. They've stilled as the custodians

624
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 5: in a sense of spiritual knowledge and medicine, and that

625
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 5: makes them an essential component in each love. The socio

626
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 5: political structure of the Mapuche has been a confederation of

627
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 5: love groups known as the Alaraway system, where the different

628
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 5: loves would come together to make communal decisions and joint actions,

629
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 5: particularly in times of conflict or threat. Each love will

630
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 5: be represented in these confederations by alonco, who would be

631
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 5: bringing their communities voice and perspective to regional councils without

632
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 5: necessarily exercise and centralized authority. The decisions these councils are

633
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 5: based on consensus traditionally and cooperation compromise, honoring the collective

634
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 5: will as much as possible, rather than imposing will from above,

635
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 5: and contrary to popular belief, this lack of centralization has

636
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 5: actually made them more resilient, not more fragile. Rather than

637
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 5: beckering and fighting and split in and splintering constantly than

638
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 5: Pouch have historically united and together resisted multiple attempts at subjugation.

639
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 5: So they centralized alliances have empowered them to respond flexibly

640
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 5: and quickly to the ever changing landscape of the threats

641
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 5: that they're facing, and this resistance can use to this day.

642
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 5: But let me not skip ahead. The Spanish fullst made

643
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 5: their way to Mapouche territory in the mid fifteen hundreds,

644
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 5: initially confident that they could conquer the area with the

645
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 5: same ease they had subdued the InCor Empire to the north.

646
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 5: But the Mapuche were not easily intimidated. Early encounters quickly

647
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 5: to into conflict, and the Spanish found themselves up against

648
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 5: a serious resistance movement. From the start, the Spanish had

649
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 5: underestimated the Impucha's ability to adapt when the conquistadors introduced

650
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 5: horses and new weaponry. Thelpuch observed and learned quickly, incorporating

651
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 5: captured horses and arms into their own defense strategies. Rather

652
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,959
Speaker 5: than a simple series of skirmishes, This struggle would become

653
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 5: a prolonged confrontation, one of the longest and most determined

654
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 5: resistances to colonization throughout the Americas. This was Lagira Tirauco

655
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 5: or the Arako War, known for over one hundred years

656
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 5: of protracted, brutal conflicts maintained by guerrilla warfare, and there

657
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 5: would be no definitive battle or grand conclusion to this war.

658
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 5: Thelpuch recognized that they were facing vast resources. They knew

659
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 5: they had to find ways to level that playing field,

660
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 5: and so, using their familiarity with the forests, rivers and

661
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 5: mountains of Albapo, they ambushed, evaded, and outflanked Spanish troops,

662
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 5: cut off supply lines, and employed tactics that frustrated and

663
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 5: exhausted their laws and equipped opponents. The Lapuche were fighting

664
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 5: on two fronts, defending their territories from physical invasion and

665
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 5: preserving their cultural practices from Spanish influence. Those Mupuch are

666
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 5: traditionally egalitarian. They did elect toki or war years during

667
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 5: times of conflict. These figures were limited to their role

668
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 5: in coordinating forces during these conflicts and had no other

669
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 5: political power to yield above others. One of the more

670
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 5: notable of these toki was a man named Lautaro. He

671
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 5: was a young Mapuche who had been captured by the

672
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 5: Spanish as a teenager and had worked for some time

673
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 5: as a stable boy for chief conquistado and governor of Gilet,

674
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 5: Pedro de Valgivia. While working as a stable boy, Lautaro

675
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 5: managed to secretly observe many of the tactics the Spanish employed.

676
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 5: He gained intimate knowledge of what made them tick in

677
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 5: a sense, and eventually escaped captivity and brought this knowledge

678
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 5: back to his people, transforming a Puchi resistance by effectively

679
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 5: using captured horses and new formations to confront the Spanish

680
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 5: on ivan ground. Lautaux was a brilliant military strategist and

681
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 5: by all accounts, a charismatic young man that inspired his

682
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 5: people through several major victories, including defeating a large Spanish

683
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 5: force at the Battle of Tucapel in fifteen fifty three,

684
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 5: which is a confrontation that killed his former master and

685
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 5: a good bit of Spanish morale. Unfortunately, the outbreak of

686
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 5: a typhus plague, a drought, and a famine slowed the

687
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 5: Mapuchier advance to expel the Spanish as they had to

688
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 5: spend some time recovering, but Lautero did try to push

689
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 5: a band of Apoucha as far north as Santiago, Chile

690
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 5: to liberate the country from Spanish rule. Unfortunately, before he

691
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 5: could even turn thirty, he was killed in an ambush,

692
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 5: and well his spirit continues to live on as a

693
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 5: symbol of Ampuche resilience. As the war evolved, they had

694
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 5: cycles of conflict interspersed with uneasy pieces Spanish settlements. The

695
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 5: Mapuche frontier became isolated, vulnerable outpost subject to sudden raids,

696
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 5: so in an attempt to hold the territory, the Spanish

697
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 5: had to divert large amount of their resources to maintain

698
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 5: a military presence, which was a very costly strategy that

699
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 5: didn't end up being sustainable long term. So finally, after

700
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 5: decades of failed attempts to subdue the Mapucha by force,

701
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 5: the Spanish had to adopt a different approach. Resulted in

702
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 5: a series of peace treaties which will be unheard of

703
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 5: in the rest of Clonal Latin America. Among these was

704
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 5: the Parliament of Killin in sixteen forty one, which established

705
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 5: a formal boundary between Spanish controlled Chile and the autonomous

706
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 5: Mapuche territories, granted the mapucha I legal recognition as an

707
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 5: independent people with territorial rights. This is ritually unheard of

708
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 5: across the rest of the Americas, and that's to tell

709
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 5: you how powerful their resistance was at the time. The

710
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 5: Spanish crown recognized Mapuche control over lands south of the

711
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 5: Bbio River and agreed to regular negotiations. And although this

712
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 5: agreement was tenuous and at times violated, it did also

713
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 5: mark an era of semi autonomy for the Mapuche, allowing

714
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 5: them to maintain their land, language and traditions in the

715
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 5: face of surrounding clunal expansion. The fact that they could

716
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,959
Speaker 5: even secure legal recognition of their autonomy from a state

717
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 5: power as stubborn as a Spanish in a time like

718
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 5: the seventeenth century, it's just remarkable. But unfortunately, as you

719
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 5: could probably predict that recognition of the autonomy would not last.

720
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 5: In the eighteen hundreds, Chile and Argentina emerged as independent

721
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 5: republics following Spanish clunial rule, each driven by an appetite

722
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 5: for territorial expansion and a nationalist vision. The excluded indigenous

723
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 5: autonomy with new ambitions to civilize and consolidate the nations.

724
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 5: Chilean and Argentine leaders saw them Mapouche held lands as

725
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 5: resources to be exploited. Both governments are justified their encroachment

726
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 5: on Morepouche land under the guise of national progress. To them,

727
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 5: these indigenous lands were free real estate to be conquered

728
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 5: and improved, not sovereign regions held by an indigenous population.

729
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 5: They saw way of life as a barrier as the

730
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 5: economic development to your place with European style land holdings

731
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 5: set the colonies and extractive industries under new management. They

732
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 5: would not respect the sixteen forty one Parliament kill in

733
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 5: as far as they were concerned. They didn't sign that agreement,

734
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 5: and they would never sign an agreement with savages.

735
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, we also saw that sort of thing

736
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: throughout the Americas, where you would have these like alleged

737
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 2: trities that then either under future rule or even sometimes

738
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 2: under the exact same rule, would later just be completely disregarded.

739
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, you didn't sign it with me, you know.

740
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 2: It's like a common colonial tactic to buy time.

741
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 5: As well exactly established and sure buery resources for a

742
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 5: later attack. Yeah, and I could just say, well, I

743
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 5: didn't sign that, you know, somebody else signed it, so

744
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 5: I don't have to be behold onto it pretty much,

745
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 5: and so Chileo launched their campaign to annexed Mapuche land,

746
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 5: known as the Pacification of Aracanya, initiated in the eighteen sixties.

747
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 5: Some have argued that this attempted annexation was triggered by

748
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 5: the events surrounding the wreck of Hooven Danielle at the

749
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 5: coast of Hrakania in eighteen forty nine, where erecked Chilean

750
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 5: navy vessel was allegedly looted and its survivors allegedly attacked

751
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 5: on Apoucha territory by members of Apouche society, despite the

752
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 5: Mapuche arguing there had been no survivors, and despite them

753
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 5: handing over some of the accused of lutin to be

754
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 5: tried by Chilean authorities, even retilling in so of what

755
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 5: was allegedly looted. The perception of the incident as a

756
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 5: brutal loot and rape by the Mapuche fueled anti Mapouche

757
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 5: sentiment within Chilean society. Although President Manualnais of Chile dismissed

758
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 5: the opposition's calls for a punitive expedition at the time.

759
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 5: The conquest would eventually come to pass, begetting in eighteen

760
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 5: sixty one. If you dig into this story, by the way,

761
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 5: you come to find out that a lot of the

762
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 5: Loutenant and Mapouche were accused of was actually members of

763
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 5: Chilean society and bazilin the resources from the wreck and

764
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 5: then play into office if the Mapuche were wholly responsible

765
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 5: for the loss of the resources. Some of the same

766
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 5: people who are accusing the Wapouchier looters of stealing all

767
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 5: the all the loot from the ship, many of them

768
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 5: had received some of that loot from the Mahuche themselves.

769
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 5: Thempuche were trying to return the loot and they decided

770
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 5: to keep it for themselves instead of you know, retaining

771
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 5: it's the Chilean government. So it's like the whole trial

772
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 5: was bunked. There was a whole bunch of corruption and

773
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 5: it was a real master And although the president did

774
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 5: you know, dismiss the attempts to attack at the time,

775
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 5: like I said, it would come to pass. The campaign

776
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 5: was justified as every government does by necessity. You know,

777
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 5: the reality however, was a brutal invasion ended up Upuch communities,

778
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 5: displacing thousands, absorbing their lands into the Chilean state.

779
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: This whole strategy also just reflects this just general dehumanization.

780
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: I mean, even the stuff with like the treaties and

781
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: just like the going back on the treaties, denial of

782
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 2: the legitimacy of treaties, that tactic would not be used

783
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: the same way against like other colonial nations. And then

784
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 2: every subsequent development and every subsequent incursion onto land, all

785
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: all of it is just based on this like underlying

786
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 2: level of dehumanization that just sees land as resources and

787
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: the people there as like acceptable casualties or just fierce

788
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: obstacles to overcome in conquest of those lands.

789
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 5: Exactly, and obstacles they were because Chile knew where they

790
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 5: wanted to reach in terms of what they saw as

791
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 5: their right full borders and were literally a wedge an

792
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 5: obstacle between them and region where they wanted to reach.

793
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 5: At the tip of South America. It was almost like

794
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 5: a race between Argentina and child had to see who

795
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 5: could reach the edge and claim it first, and THEUCH

796
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 5: will something that was keeping them from doing that, and Additionally,

797
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 5: Tapouch would not have been granted the same legitimacy of

798
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 5: a claim as Argentina. You know, Chile and Argentina would

799
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 5: eventually comes in agreement about where their border would lie,

800
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 5: and their respected that agreement. Same couldn't be said for

801
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 5: them Puch. And of course there were a lot of

802
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 5: border disagreements of course in South America following the you know,

803
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 5: evacuation of the Spanish, but of course those are treated

804
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 5: on equal foot in the natives are different matter. So

805
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 5: Chilean forces would corner advance into Aracania forcibly, removed thousands

806
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 5: of families from the ancestral territories and subject those that

807
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 5: remade into the authority to the Chilean government. The traditional

808
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 5: cumin land holdings have remained were fragmented and redistributed, often

809
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 5: to Chilean settlers and the government's imposed European style laws,

810
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 5: education and religion to attempt to assimilate the Mapuche and

811
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 5: suppress the identity. Military outposts and settlements also established in

812
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 5: the newly annexed land, fastily facing the region under martial

813
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 5: law and making it difficult from Pucci communities to resist

814
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 5: openly replace the words Chilean government with Israeli government, and

815
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 5: Mapuche with Palestinian And that's just to tell you how

816
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 5: antiquated the current tactics of colonization are. Very little has changed.

817
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 2: No, That's exactly what I've been thinking about.

818
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, a lot of the former major coal

819
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 5: powers have found more subtle means of continuing their exploitation

820
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 5: and subjugation of people around the world. So it's very

821
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 5: rare to see something so open and flagrant. You know,

822
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 5: It's something that you expect to see in historical accounts

823
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 5: such as this of landhole ends being chopped up and

824
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 5: give unto settlers, and laws and education and being imposed

825
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 5: and to a native population to suppress and to assimilate

826
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 5: the I dentity. You know, military outpost being established on

827
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 5: New Leanix Land, Marcia law being established for the native inhabitants,

828
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 5: all those things. Hear about it, and pushing of the

829
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 5: American frontier, and you hear about it and throughout South

830
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 5: America and Africa's cooling history. You don't really tend to

831
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 5: think about that here and now it's happening in four.

832
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 2: K No, Like, that's exactly what I was thinking about

833
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 2: as you've been going through all this like how it

834
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: just sounds exactly the same as what Israel is currently doing.

835
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 2: And I think why people latch on to like Israel

836
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: specifically so much is because of how like out of

837
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 2: time their tactics of colonial expansion and feel and like

838
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 2: similarly like it. It's just built on this base level

839
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 2: of dehumanization exactly that a whole bunch of other like

840
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: imperial powers kind of try to like hide or like

841
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 2: mask a little bit, and with Israels just so mask off.

842
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 5: So I think about all that time they were like

843
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 5: a century late pretty much. Yeah, if they had starts

844
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 5: in this process like a sentry Elia, they would have

845
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 5: actually probably have gotten away with it.

846
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, well and they still might get away with it

847
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,439
Speaker 2: now to some degree. And that's like that is true.

848
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: That's that's kind of the super that's the super frightening

849
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 2: thought is that even though it is this outdated like style,

850
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: what if it like still works and if and if

851
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: it's proven to still work in Palestine, where like where

852
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 2: else can this be used? Like will we just see

853
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 2: more countries feel like they can get away with it

854
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 2: because Israel did? And like that's kind of part of

855
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 2: looking into the next four years and looking into just

856
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: just how how the world is going in this general

857
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 2: kind of far right power grab happening all like all

858
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 2: over the globe. Will more and more countries be kind

859
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 2: of willing to utilize these types of colonial tactics.

860
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: And it's scary and bad.

861
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean when you think about how the severity

862
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 5: of the clomb situation it's just going to worsen, and

863
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 5: you think about the pressures at places on the most

864
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 5: exploitive regions of the globe, how that might pressure, you know, migration,

865
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 5: and how that might pressure sort of efforts to resist

866
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 5: the sort of tightening of the hold of expectation up

867
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 5: until the call that was reading this book called one

868
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 5: of People's History of Fashion, just thinking about the whole

869
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 5: textile trade as a whole and how it impacts different

870
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 5: parts of the globe and whatever, and just talking about

871
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 5: this now, I'm just thinking like, if workers in those

872
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 5: countries were to stand up, well, in all this time,

873
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 5: you know, some of the most deadly struggles or taking

874
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 5: place in these regions, in these saturns, but if they

875
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 5: were to stand up and resist, now, I mean it, mind,

876
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 5: you've got even more open and then blatant with the

877
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 5: suppression of those people and those voices, and as they

878
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 5: attempt to try and make their way out of those

879
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 5: those hot spots, those hot regions of instability and violence

880
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 5: and climate catastrophe. You know, we have all this migrant

881
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 5: rhetoric to yes, make the struggle even worse.

882
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 2: That's like the fucoas boomerang idea of all of these

883
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,919
Speaker 2: colonial tactics also can eventually turned inward. And right now

884
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 2: you see the same level of dehumanization being levied against

885
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: like millions of immigrants who are here both legally as

886
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 2: refugees and are also here undocumented. But it's the same

887
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: like rhetorical tactics that make people okay with this is

888
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 2: that level of dehumanization. And you also see that, of

889
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: course levied against like trans people. You still see that

890
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 2: livid against indigenous people, and it's just like a growing

891
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: list of people that are no longer seen as like

892
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 2: real humans.

893
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, for some reason you're saying that, my mind fixates

894
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 5: it on the fact that you said undocumented, and it's

895
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 5: reminded me of the absurdity of all of this. The

896
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 5: difference is literally some pieces of people. The difference is

897
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 5: literally a rule of the dice spawn point from one

898
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 5: side of the water or another. I have we allow

899
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 5: this to like totally dominate our lives.

900
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a it's like a deep spiritual evil.

901
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 2: So many people don't even like realize the absurdity of it,

902
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 2: and how just like it takes away so much of

903
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 2: like thought and empathy and people people just don't even know,

904
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 2: Like they don't even like process that that's what they've

905
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 2: done to themselves by like constructing this system that they

906
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 2: believe is like divine or like enshrined by God.

907
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 5: The right to exist defense.

908
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it's it is. So much of it is

909
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 2: a dice roll. So much of it is situations beyond

910
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 2: anyone's conscious control.

911
00:52:55,239 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, And to sort of pull us back on to

912
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 5: the track, you can also see the mirrors between the

913
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 5: current past Indian struggle and theon Gordmapuch struggle and even

914
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 5: going back to this time that I have even discussing

915
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 5: the Puchi struggle of the past, because despite all of

916
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 5: this conal expansion, the Upuci resisted not only militarily but culturally.

917
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 5: They held on to their language, they held on to

918
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 5: their customs, they held onto their spiritual practices, they held

919
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 5: on to their identity in defiance of assimilations policies and

920
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 5: across the Andes. Meanwhile, Argentina was pursuing a similarly aggressive

921
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 5: campaign just known as the Conquest of the Desert. This

922
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 5: was led by General Julio Argentino Rocca in the eighteen

923
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 5: seventies and eighteen eighties, and this really sort of eradicate

924
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 5: and displace all the indigenous groups through in the area,

925
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 5: including the Mapuch who had lived on the fertile Pampas

926
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 5: and Patagonian regions, to secure valuable land for wait for it,

927
00:53:54,840 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 5: cattle ranchin agriculture and European settler expansion cattaranchian as in

928
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 5: you know, the whole meat trade.

929
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 2: The cows are more important than the people.

930
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 5: Exactly, and the demand for the cows is more important

931
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 5: than people. They see this violence of agricultural and expansion

932
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 5: other places as well, as I said, I was reading

933
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 5: one and one of the things she notes is that

934
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 5: part of what pushed the American westward expansion was that

935
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 5: they were growing cotton, and cotton is extremely intensive and

936
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 5: historically cotton was grown in a polyculture, was grown with

937
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 5: other plants. Right with these cotton monocultures, it really quickly

938
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 5: strips the soil of its nutrients, and so they were

939
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 5: pushing westward because they kept on having to find new

940
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 5: land to grow the cotton on. And of course who

941
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 5: was working that cotton and who was working with plantations,

942
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 5: just explotation all the way down and all that just

943
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 5: to feed this rapacious appetite of expansion. You know, we

944
00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 5: had thousands of years of sustainable growth and sustainable cyclical

945
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 5: economy use, but things that that would last, and just

946
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 5: in these last few centuries we've just completely lost that

947
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 5: because above all the line has to go up well.

948
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 2: And like also part of that quest for agricultural domination.

949
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: In order to make that possible, there's the invention of

950
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: the international slave trade, which is similarly built on this

951
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 2: level of just base decumanization and the desire for agricultural

952
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 2: production being way more important than the humanity of like

953
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 2: everybody involved in that process, yep.

954
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 5: And then it's also tied to the petrochemical trade because

955
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 5: to maintaining these soils in this unnatural form, you have

956
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 5: to basically pump the land with these artificial fertilizers, which

957
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 5: are typically derived from Patrick Ammick goals, and.

958
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 2: Like that, that process of the soil basically becoming dead

959
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 2: like started even as early as like the late eighteen hundreds.

960
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 2: Like this, this is just like a modern problem in

961
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 2: like the wet past, like fifty hundred years all of

962
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 2: that land was like overused and starting to get destroyed

963
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 2: almost like two hundred years ago, but specifically like the

964
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds.

965
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is what we're looking at here, and

966
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 5: this this particular historical narrative we're just watching. The fall

967
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 5: of wild Mapo, of course, was looking at at a

968
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 5: more grandize sence, the fall of the remaining communities that

969
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 5: actually were maintaining that connection land there being in this

970
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 5: process subjugated so that there is no resistance and no

971
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 5: present to alternative to the extractive model that was at

972
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 5: least part of the goal of this expansion. As we

973
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 5: see in Argentina, the few Mapuche who survived this massacre

974
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 5: because they employed all sorts of tactics rangers from scorch

975
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 5: student policies to force relocations to like outright just you know,

976
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 5: the few that survived for relocated to reservations, tripped to

977
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 5: their land and reduced to laborers within this modern or

978
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 5: rapidly modernized in Argentina and General Rocker's campaign was celebrated

979
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 5: by the Argentine elite as a triumph of civilization over barbarism.

980
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 5: Where have I heard that before? So in both Chile's

981
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 5: passification of Aracanya and Argentina's conquest of the desert. He

982
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 5: had this large scale dispossession of Apucca land. And while

983
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 5: Mapoo now being fully split by the border of Argentina

984
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 5: and Chile, the vast majority of Puce now live in Chile.

985
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 5: There are only a few times one thousands left in

986
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 5: Argentina to this day. Initially, Mapucha leaders and communities launched

987
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 5: uprisings and gorilla attacks against the Chilean and Argentine military forces,

988
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 5: fighting to defend their territories, but as military suppression tensified,

989
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 5: resistance also had to adapt When Puchia communities had to

990
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 5: adopt more fluid forms of opposition, intaining cultural practices, stories,

991
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 5: and languages as an active resistance. Some of Pucci leaders

992
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 5: petitioned for land rights and autonomy through legal channels, seeking

993
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 5: to challenge dispossession through the courts. Others continue to resist

994
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 5: through armed confrontation, often leading isolated uprisings when government forces

995
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 5: overstepped or attempted to cease more landed. The future resistance

996
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 5: that follows this period is basically rooted in the traumas

997
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 5: of this period, as the people were forcibly integrated into

998
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 5: Chilean and Argentine societies, yet never fully accepted. As we

999
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 5: move into the early twentieth century, the Pusche communities continue

1000
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 5: to be hit hard by policies that aim to dissolve

1001
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 5: the traditional ways of life. The Chilean and Argentine governments

1002
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 5: squeeze Onucha onto reservations, but surrounding lands were given to

1003
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 5: power for landowners and settlers. Land's guesty was a significant issue,

1004
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 5: as from Puchet families often had thoughts too more to

1005
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 5: sustain their traditional agricultural practices, and the dispossession led economic

1006
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 5: hardship and wide tread poverty further marginalized them from national economies.

1007
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 5: The assimilation attempts to frame ndition as community identity as

1008
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 5: something to be erased in favor of European norms, pushed

1009
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 5: out the Mapundun language and cultural ties and aimed to

1010
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 5: impose Spanish as the primary language. Thankfully, today, Mapundum still

1011
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 5: survives as the language and the Jucha people at the

1012
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 5: time Mapuchi were also forced into the wage labor on

1013
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 5: settler farms experience and of course very harsh conditions are

1014
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 5: very little protection. Many of them. Mapuchi ended up migrating from

1015
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 5: rural areas to cities as the arable land twindled, and

1016
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 5: then found themselves in places like Santiago and Temuco beginning

1017
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 5: the nineteen thirty years and Anima Puchier families ended up

1018
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 5: working as laborers and urban centers where their these new

1019
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,439
Speaker 5: forms of discrimination. A lot of Mpuche women ended up

1020
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 5: going to work as servants within the houses of the

1021
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 5: Chilean elite, and during this period of hardship, Iarlimapoucha political

1022
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 5: movements began to take shape. In the nineteen tens, Wabuchi

1023
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 5: leaders organized groups like Societ Dad Kapu Likan Defense Soa

1024
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 5: de la Arakanya, which advocated for land rights and civil

1025
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 5: protections agent to reclaim the dispossessed land and fight against

1026
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 5: the abuse of indigenous laborers. These early organizations marked a

1027
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 5: significant shift in Mapuche strategy represented a movement towards formal

1028
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 5: political approaches to resistance. The assaulstionment of political alliances that

1029
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 5: sympathetic groups also strengthened Mpucha cause. In the nineteen twenties

1030
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 5: nineteen thirties, indigenous organizations began working with the Chilean communists

1031
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 5: and socialist parties, focusing on indigenous labor issues and broader

1032
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 5: anti landlord campaigns. However, these alliances often prioritized national labor

1033
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 5: and Akrainian reform over specific indition's rights, leaving Themapouche to

1034
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 5: continue the fight largely on their own terms. But in

1035
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 5: spite of this limited political power, these early efforts helped

1036
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 5: lay the groundwork for later land rights activism. From the

1037
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 5: mid twentieth century onward, rapid and gustrialization, extractive forestry operations

1038
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 5: and monoculture plantations began to dominate Mapucha land, and pollution increased.

1039
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 5: Rivers were contaminated. Forest power of diversity was replaced by

1040
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 5: non native species like pine and eucalyptus plantations, and all

1041
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 5: of this leads, of course, soiled depletion. The remaining Mapuchia,

1042
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 5: agriculture and local ecosystems were naturally threatened, which fully compel

1043
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 5: their resistance. At the same time, they were still, of course,

1044
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 5: working to preserve their language, their cultural practices, their music,

1045
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 5: their arts, the spiritual ceremonies. For a small moment, there

1046
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 5: was some hope as the government of Salvador Allende, you

1047
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 5: know this is going passed an indigenous law that recognized

1048
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 5: their distinctive culture and history and began to restore Mapuche

1049
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 5: Commune a lot. But I think we all remember how

1050
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 5: that to end oubt. Bam bam, you have a who

1051
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 5: are coop sponsored by the US, and Pinochet is in power.

1052
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 5: In power, Pinochet calls for the division of the reserves

1053
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 5: and the liquidation of the Indian communities. He initially sounds

1054
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 5: like a cartoon villain of everything I've read and learned

1055
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 5: about him, I mean, who speaks of the liquidation of

1056
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 5: a people?

1057
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 2: Pinochet is extremely cartoon villain coded, except it was a

1058
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 2: real person. So I also have this tendency to not

1059
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 2: dismiss super evil people as like unhuman monsters, because I

1060
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: think that actually limits our understanding of how evil humans

1061
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 2: can be. Sure, and this isn't even just a pure principle,

1062
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 2: like I don't like dehumanization in general, it's that I

1063
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 2: think it actually makes these people harder to beat if

1064
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 2: you view them as like some monstrous force instead of

1065
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 2: something that's actually deeply human and Yeah, he is a

1066
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 2: cartoon villain. He's also like a person, and like that's

1067
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 2: actually kind of more scary than just viewing him as

1068
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 2: some monster.

1069
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 6: Very true, And I don't know, it's a.

1070
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 2: Frame of thought I've come back on specifically and like

1071
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 2: thinking about like anti fascism.

1072
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, that's something I always think about when

1073
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 5: I think of a lot of the most brutal world

1074
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 5: leaders across human history. I often think, you know, this

1075
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 5: person did not spawn out of the air. There was

1076
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 5: a time when this person was a newborn and they

1077
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 5: were babbling, learning to speak, learning to walk, became a toddler,

1078
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 5: small child, pre teen, teenager, young adults, so much nature

1079
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 5: and nurture would have gone into the police and they became.

1080
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 5: But they had the same spawn point as everybody else.

1081
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 5: They all started as a baby, and Pinochet was unfortunately

1082
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 5: no exception. After the pass and of his decree twenty

1083
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 5: five sixty eight to nineteen seventy nine, the number of

1084
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 5: indigenous creaties was reduced by twenty five percent and several

1085
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 5: Mapuchia leaders were murdered, threatened with imprisonment or excerpt. After

1086
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 5: the fall of Pinochet and returned to democracy, uppuch had

1087
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 5: a resurgionce and identity and political activism for the nineteen nineties.

1088
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 5: This revival gained momentum after the passage of Chile's Indigenous

1089
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 5: Law in nineteen ninety three, which acknowledged the Puche land

1090
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 5: right to advocated for bilingual education, opening new paths for

1091
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 5: cultural reclamatia. That same year, Nampuchi representatives at the UN

1092
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 5: pushed for Chile to adopt Iolo Convention one sixty nine,

1093
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 5: a key indigious rights treaty, but Chile didn't actually ratify

1094
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 5: the convention until two thousand and eight. Despite the established

1095
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 5: run to the National Cooperation of Indigenous Development or KANNADI

1096
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 5: in nineteen twenty three to facilitate indigenous inclusion in policy making,

1097
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 5: Mapucha involvement in such state institutions has not guaranteed geruine representation.

1098
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 5: Several KANNADI leaders who openly advocated from Mapucha autonomy or

1099
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 5: pushed against corporate interests have been removed from their positions.

1100
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 5: In twenty fifteen, Governor Francisco Juanchomia, a Promapuchi advocate in Aracanya,

1101
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 5: was removed from his position due to his support for

1102
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 5: legal reforms recognizing Mapucha rights. He can'tgo and change the system.

1103
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 5: System changes you will gets you out of the way.

1104
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:30,439
Speaker 5: With the intensification of extractive industries roach lands, a wave

1105
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 5: of activism emerged, specifically aimed the protecting secret territories and

1106
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 5: the environment. Mapuchi activists frequently have stood up against forestry companies,

1107
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 5: hydroelectric projects, and multinational corporations that have aimed to exploit

1108
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 5: their resources, the e engaging land occupations and protests for

1109
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 5: land restitution and environmental protection. The Chilean stage reaction to

1110
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 5: Maputa activism is entirely predictable harsh repression under anti terrorism legislation.

1111
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 5: Mapoochier activists fe heightened police, civil lands, in prison, lond

1112
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 5: accusations of terrorism a toxic which is universally used to

1113
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 5: delegitimize resistance to injustice and violence, explotation, and destructure.

1114
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 2: It is kind of one of those magic words that

1115
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 2: has been increasingly invoked in the past twenty years.

1116
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, terrorist is a magic wood. Illegal is another magic wood.

1117
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're all just like the humanization terms, right, Like,

1118
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 2: you are not a person, you are not an ex

1119
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,920
Speaker 2: you are not well whatever, you are a terrorist and uh,

1120
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 2: terrorists do not have the same rights as humans. It's

1121
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 2: not a war crime if you do it against a terrorist.

1122
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 5: Luke Skywalker was not a terrorist. You are a terrorist,

1123
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 5: you know.

1124
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 2: But no like like whether you're like finding in like

1125
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 2: an actual resistance movement or you're just attending like a

1126
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 2: protest in a in an American city, both of those

1127
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 2: can now become quote unquote terrorists.

1128
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 5: Or or some like level clerk who just happens to

1129
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:03,080
Speaker 5: be within has Aboulah.

1130
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, or you're a daughter of a low level clerk

1131
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 2: who is picking up a pager and oops, I guess

1132
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 2: your dad shouldn't have been a terrorist in like Jesus Christ.

1133
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1134
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 5: Yeah. And then of course the media has a big

1135
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 5: part to play in all this. You know, terrorist as

1136
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 5: a term is associated with certain stereotypes about various groups

1137
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 5: of people. In the past few years, it's been the

1138
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 5: you know, machete and ak waven Islamist fightal but in

1139
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 5: other time periods it was another prominent stereotype, you know,

1140
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 5: the Black seventies revolutionary or Vietcong And in the Chilean situation,

1141
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 5: media portrayals have also reinforced stereotypes of ampuch violence, which

1142
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 5: of course serves the rule of obscure in the reality

1143
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 5: of their fight for justice and environmental stewardship. It hasn't

1144
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:06,439
Speaker 5: all been for not the mapuch struggle. That is, they

1145
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 5: have had a few legal triumphs rulans where the Inter

1146
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 5: American Court of Human Rights has held Chile accountable in

1147
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 5: air quotes as much as any state is actually held

1148
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 5: accountable for valuating Mapuche rights. Grassroots groups and as collectives

1149
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 5: with white have also supported Mapucha efforts. But curly these

1150
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 5: small victories and triumphs are really not much. They're not enough.

1151
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 5: Within the broader Auch movement, you do have the reformists

1152
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 5: and the simulationists, and you have groups like Quording their

1153
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 5: Daughter Arako Mayeko or Camp and they're splinter group, which

1154
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 5: is why chan Alca Mapu and they've adopted separatist stances,

1155
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:53,799
Speaker 5: advocating for direct actions such as land occupations and resistance

1156
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 5: against state forces because they view autonomy and territorial reclamation

1157
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 5: as essential to mapuchia soeignty and they have no interest

1158
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 5: in compromise with the extractive industries and government that are

1159
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 5: responsible for their suffering. Traditionally, these groups have focused on

1160
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 5: acts of economic sabotage against companies that are infringing on

1161
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:18,839
Speaker 5: their lands and their stewardship. Within wider Chilean society. There's

1162
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:24,560
Speaker 5: still some prejudice against some Mapuche, particularly, but not exclusively

1163
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:27,839
Speaker 5: from the right way, but she lays twenty nineteen uprising

1164
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:33,160
Speaker 5: against inequality and government abuses found strong supports and allieship

1165
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 5: between wider Chilean society and Upuche communities who had seen

1166
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 5: echoes of their own grievances and national protests. The protests

1167
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:45,600
Speaker 5: were initially sparked by a Maturro affair hike, but they

1168
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 5: quickly became a national movement demanding systemic reform in both

1169
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:54,560
Speaker 5: urban and rural spaces. Thepuche communities joined or supported protesters.

1170
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:58,320
Speaker 5: Were resistant continued to government policies that marginalize their communities

1171
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 5: and undermined their cultural rights. Mapuocha symbols and flags emerged

1172
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 5: prominently align in aditional struggles with these were demands of

1173
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 5: social justice, and the government response can you predict, was

1174
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 5: swift and severe. Military and police forces were deployed to

1175
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 5: use excessive violence. Apuch Ben knew about this, but some

1176
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 5: of the Chileans their experiencing this for the first time,

1177
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 5: and this mutual experience of repression reinforced alliances between the

1178
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:31,800
Speaker 5: Mapuche and the Chilean activists, as both faced the stature

1179
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 5: of enviolence of propaganda that portrayed them as radicals and

1180
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:39,559
Speaker 5: terrorists and extremists. So despite the crackdown, the uprising saw

1181
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:43,919
Speaker 5: unprecedented support for the Mapuche cause, amplifying calls for restitution

1182
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 5: of indigious lands, former recognition of Appouoche rights in a

1183
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:50,919
Speaker 5: reformed constitution, and a declinal approach to governments the respects

1184
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 5: indigenous autonomy. The twenty nineteen protests laid the groundwork for

1185
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:58,799
Speaker 5: a national constitutional reform was significant Mapucha involvement to public

1186
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 5: support in a new constitutions with the twenty one raised

1187
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 5: the potential for ensurance indigenous rights from Puccier representatives actively

1188
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 5: participate in the process and creating renewed optimism for meaningful

1189
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 5: legal reprotections the respecting Puja, culture, territory and autonomy. That

1190
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 5: somewhat progressive attempt at a constitution reform, which also included

1191
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 5: gender equality measures, was rejected, and so there was another

1192
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:26,320
Speaker 5: attempt just last year enter to twenty three, but it

1193
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 5: was a very conservative attempt shaped by the far right

1194
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:34,959
Speaker 5: Republican Party, which trickter provisions and immigration, a ban and abortion,

1195
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 5: and a free market focus that did not resonate with

1196
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 5: the majority of voters. Fifty five point eight percent voted

1197
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:45,280
Speaker 5: against the twenty twenty three draft and forty four point

1198
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 5: two percent in fever. Chile In President Gabriel Borek, whose

1199
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 5: administration had supported constitutional change, acknowledged that further attempts that

1200
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 5: constitutional reform were unlikely. So for now, Chile continues to

1201
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:01,640
Speaker 5: be governed by the constitution that dates back to the

1202
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 5: dictatorship of Pinochet, while its leaders looking at alternative calves

1203
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:08,800
Speaker 5: for address and social, economic, and environments of this suites

1204
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:12,639
Speaker 5: in line with Chilean public opinion. If you know anything

1205
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 5: about me and my positions, you know that I'm not

1206
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 5: confident in the ability of states to meaningfully respect people's

1207
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 5: agency and autonomy ever. But I wish them Pucha all

1208
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:25,599
Speaker 5: the best wherever their struggle goes, and I've personally found

1209
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 5: their story very impactful. It's one of resilience, adaptability, and

1210
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 5: vase of centuries of advolicity. They've had an unyielding desire

1211
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:37,839
Speaker 5: to maintain their connection to the land and cultural identity,

1212
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,280
Speaker 5: and they aren't going fright. Is really just a testament

1213
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,880
Speaker 5: to the power of solidarity. And that's it for me.

1214
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:48,280
Speaker 5: This has been all power to all the people.

1215
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:09,799
Speaker 10: Okay, hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here today.

1216
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 10: We're very lucky to be joined by Vladimir von Bilgenberg,

1217
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:17,400
Speaker 10: who's an underground journalist who covers Syria, and Curtis Dan

1218
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 10: has written two books, including one on the alliance between

1219
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 10: the SDF and the Coalition. Is that is that a

1220
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 10: fair introduction in Vladimir.

1221
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 2: Ye?

1222
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:30,760
Speaker 6: Okay, thank you, thank you so much for joining us.

1223
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 10: There has obviously been a massive increase, in a massive

1224
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:37,040
Speaker 10: change in the conflict in Syria in the last week

1225
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:40,080
Speaker 10: or so, just under a week, and I think the

1226
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:44,719
Speaker 10: information that's available to people is often very bad, very delayed,

1227
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:48,400
Speaker 10: or one side or rather putting out propaganda things which

1228
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:53,280
Speaker 10: mischaracterized the situation on the ground, especially with regard to

1229
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 10: the Syrian National Army, who we're going to talk about.

1230
01:13:55,840 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 10: Would you mind giving us a sort of very reef

1231
01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:05,400
Speaker 10: explanation of what has happened since last Wednesday when HTS,

1232
01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:08,960
Speaker 10: who will have to explain later, launch their operation against Aleppo.

1233
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:13,639
Speaker 8: Well, in general, I mean the current situation ALAPO came

1234
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 8: to a surprise too many many people didn't expect it. So,

1235
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 8: just after the ceasefire in Lebanon, the Hayata te Rocham,

1236
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 8: which is offshoot of al Qaeda, so they said they

1237
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:27,559
Speaker 8: don't have relations with al Qaida anymore. They split off

1238
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 8: from al Qaeda. They launched a big operation in Alappo

1239
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 8: against the Serian government or the same regime, whatever you

1240
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 8: want to call it. I think initially they didn't think

1241
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 8: that they would go so far, all the way into

1242
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:47,000
Speaker 8: Alappo city. There have been agreements between Russia, Iran, and

1243
01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 8: Turkey and Syria in Astana about the deconflection zone in

1244
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 8: the northwestern province of Italy. So the HTS insurgents, they

1245
01:14:57,439 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 8: claim they launched this operation towards Aleppo in response to

1246
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 8: violation of this Astana agreement. So according to that agreement,

1247
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 8: this area will be in control of the HDS and

1248
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 8: the other area will be control of the regime and

1249
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:11,559
Speaker 8: they wouldn't bother each other. But this agreement was never

1250
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:14,880
Speaker 8: really implemented, I mean versus Russia. They were constantly bombing it.

1251
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 8: Sometimes the HTS would attack regime positions. Also according to

1252
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 8: this deconfliction zone, actually the Serian government and I reining

1253
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 8: back armed groups. They went actually in that the de

1254
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:30,480
Speaker 8: confliction zone was supposed to be controlled by the Seyian insurgents.

1255
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 8: So they launched this operation in response to the they

1256
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:37,559
Speaker 8: say the violations by the Serian government, and I think

1257
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 8: because when they realized that the defenses of the Serian

1258
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 8: government very weak, they pushed further into Aleppo. And it

1259
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:45,759
Speaker 8: was not really planned to take the city of Aleppo,

1260
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 8: although there's also a video of Jiulani, the leader of HDS,

1261
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:52,800
Speaker 8: saying that my brothers, one day we're going to be

1262
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 8: an Aleppo, So maybe it was planned. We don't know

1263
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 8: really for sure, but the fact is that the Syrian

1264
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:02,400
Speaker 8: government defense is collab and for some people in the region,

1265
01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:05,000
Speaker 8: it was sort of reminded of the days of Mussol

1266
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 8: when the Iraqi army they fled Mussol in twenty thirty

1267
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 8: fourteen and then Isis took over, although the HTS really

1268
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:15,559
Speaker 8: denied that they are similar to ISIS, although they have

1269
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 8: a similar Islamish ideology. So they took the city of

1270
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 8: Aleppo in three days, and they have been trying to

1271
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,800
Speaker 8: go up towards Hama, a city more up so far,

1272
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:28,880
Speaker 8: they haven't been able to take the city. And on

1273
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 8: the other hand, you also have another group called the

1274
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:34,639
Speaker 8: Seran National Army, which is groups composed of basic groups

1275
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 8: that were supported by the Turkish government. They also started

1276
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:43,759
Speaker 8: to move. They also started to carry out operations against

1277
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:46,880
Speaker 8: Kurtish lad Forces also known as the Cerrian Democratic Forces

1278
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 8: of the YPG. And also they started to do operations

1279
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 8: against the Syrian government in above Albab and also in

1280
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 8: northern Aleppo. And they took also several towns in northern

1281
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 8: Aleppo and also they advanced and I think their main

1282
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:05,719
Speaker 8: reason of that. So while the HDS is primarily mostly

1283
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 8: fighting against the Syrian government, I think the Serian National Army,

1284
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:11,200
Speaker 8: because it's back by Turkey, they also have an interest

1285
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 8: to undermine the Serian Democratic Forces because Turkey in the

1286
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:16,720
Speaker 8: past they have said they don't want to have a

1287
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:20,240
Speaker 8: second Kurdish autonomous region in the region, because you have

1288
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 8: already won in Iraq, which was became recognized after the

1289
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 8: fall of the Damp, So you have a Kurdistan region

1290
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 8: in Iraq, and Turkey was sort of afraid to have

1291
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:33,439
Speaker 8: a second Kurdistan region in Syria, especially because it's created

1292
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:37,559
Speaker 8: by a group which has ideological affiliation with the pik

1293
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:41,080
Speaker 8: Ak with they follow the idology of the imprisoned leader

1294
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 8: of the pik A k Abdulachlan, which Turkey sees is

1295
01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:47,919
Speaker 8: a terrorist organization. So it's very complex, which we always

1296
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 8: keep saying about Syria, but you basically have two different operations.

1297
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,599
Speaker 8: You have the Turkish back groups that are trying to

1298
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 8: stop the Kurts from linking up with Aleppo, and then

1299
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 8: you have the HDS, the Islamist groups that are trying

1300
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 8: to go up and they already took Alepo and they

1301
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:07,920
Speaker 8: also took many areas in the countryside of Hama, and

1302
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:10,680
Speaker 8: actually they now control all of the province. So in

1303
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:12,880
Speaker 8: the past the certain government they control some parts of

1304
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:16,679
Speaker 8: lip but now they control the it's as they control

1305
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 8: all of Yeah.

1306
01:18:18,400 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 10: So I think if we start by looking, I think

1307
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:23,920
Speaker 10: most people who listen to this will be familiar with

1308
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:27,719
Speaker 10: the SDF, with the Autonomous Administration in North East Syria,

1309
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 10: and with the ri Java Revolution, and they'll be wondering.

1310
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,760
Speaker 10: Kind of the question I get mostly is like how

1311
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:39,760
Speaker 10: does this impact that? That's what people are asking. So

1312
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 10: with that in mind, I think we should explain. Perhaps

1313
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:46,360
Speaker 10: we've talked before in this show about Operation Piece Spring

1314
01:18:46,479 --> 01:18:50,960
Speaker 10: e Fretty Shield and these Turkish incursions into previously SDF

1315
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 10: controlled areas and the genocide or violence that accompanied that,

1316
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:59,240
Speaker 10: or ethnic cleansing, however you want to phrase it. Can

1317
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 10: you explain what happened in the areas where the SNA

1318
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:06,400
Speaker 10: have advanced and like what that's meant for the Kurdish

1319
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:09,679
Speaker 10: people who lived there or in some cases are still there.

1320
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, in the in the northern Aleppo and Aleppo City,

1321
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:17,160
Speaker 8: so you have two Kurdish neighborhoods called Ashrafiya and Chech Maksut.

1322
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 8: There are around one hundred to two hundred thousand people

1323
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 8: living there. Then you have also two small Kurdish towns

1324
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 8: called Tel Aran and Tel Hassel, which have changed hands

1325
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 8: constantly during the Serian Civil War between the YEPG, the

1326
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 8: Syrian government and Iran, then by the rebels done by

1327
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:36,360
Speaker 8: ISIS than by al Kaida, like it was a big mess. Yeah.

1328
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:39,840
Speaker 8: Then you have also you have like Kurts that were

1329
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:42,679
Speaker 8: displaced from Afrine because Turkey they carried out an operation

1330
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 8: against the YPG in twenty eighteen, So you have thousands

1331
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:49,800
Speaker 8: of Kurts that left Afrine. So the statistics are a

1332
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:52,719
Speaker 8: bit unclear, but at least there were around ten thousand

1333
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:56,320
Speaker 8: IDPs living in camps in northern Aleppo, and you also

1334
01:19:56,360 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 8: have people living outside of the camp, so the statistics

1335
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:02,679
Speaker 8: are always a bit unclear, but it's they now say

1336
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:06,400
Speaker 8: that they were around ten thousand families that were displaced,

1337
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 8: so they were already displaced from Afrine before. And there's

1338
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:14,599
Speaker 8: this town of Tararapad, which has been a strategic location

1339
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 8: in Aleppo because it was sort of like opening up

1340
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 8: the way to Aleppo City and the Kurdish back forces

1341
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:25,559
Speaker 8: they took actually this town with Russian support from the

1342
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:29,719
Speaker 8: Turkish back rebels, so they had like grievances about this town.

1343
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:34,040
Speaker 8: But Turkey, even during the Afrine operation, they didn't get

1344
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:36,599
Speaker 8: the green light to take this town from the Kurtkish

1345
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:38,600
Speaker 8: back groups. Also, the Syrian government was there by the

1346
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:42,800
Speaker 8: way after dreamings, so this town always was like a

1347
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:47,760
Speaker 8: focal point of contention between the Kurts and the Syrian insurgents.

1348
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:52,120
Speaker 8: So what happened after HCS took Aleppo, the Syrian National

1349
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:55,920
Speaker 8: Army with the backing of Turkey, they moved on towards

1350
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:59,439
Speaker 8: Teara Lapad. And also because in the past, there was

1351
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:03,240
Speaker 8: more bad because you have also two small towns called

1352
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:08,759
Speaker 8: Mumble and Zahara. They were like prominently inhabited by people

1353
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:11,679
Speaker 8: from the Shia religion, so there were Iranian back groups

1354
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:13,840
Speaker 8: there and they were in the back of Telarafad, so

1355
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:16,559
Speaker 8: they were sort of as a balance. So they sort

1356
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:18,240
Speaker 8: of like the curves, were able to hold out in

1357
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:22,160
Speaker 8: Tarapad despite like many offensive by the Turkish back groups.

1358
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:25,840
Speaker 8: So what happened because of basically all the Syrian government,

1359
01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:28,080
Speaker 8: they were removed from Aleppo and as a result, like

1360
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:32,120
Speaker 8: they were very weakend and completely isolated. I mean until

1361
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:35,640
Speaker 8: now there's Kurtish forces in Astrophia and Czech Masud, but

1362
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 8: they're completely surrounded and embargoed by the HTS, which is

1363
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 8: not something new because before this conflict, this new renewed

1364
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 8: conflict in Aleppo, the Syrian government was also imposing embargoes

1365
01:21:47,080 --> 01:21:51,040
Speaker 8: on those two neighborhoods, not allowing food and topping electricity

1366
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 8: and bothering people at checkpoints because they had like always

1367
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:57,439
Speaker 8: issues with the Kurtish led forces because they're sort of

1368
01:21:57,439 --> 01:21:59,439
Speaker 8: in the Syrian Civil War, they have always played sort

1369
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:01,720
Speaker 8: of a third role, like they want to have their autonomy.

1370
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:04,719
Speaker 8: Then you have the Shiran armed groups. They are trying

1371
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 8: to topple the Syrian government, and then you had the

1372
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 8: Syrian government trying to stop this from happening. And then yeah,

1373
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:13,760
Speaker 8: the Kurtish led forces were trying to create the autonomous

1374
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 8: administration and they got some support from the US in

1375
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:20,720
Speaker 8: the fight against ISIS since the Battle of Kovani. Yeah,

1376
01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:24,160
Speaker 8: so yeah, this is like the situation a lepos. So

1377
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:28,080
Speaker 8: now what happened is that thea fat were in twenty sixteen,

1378
01:22:28,120 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 8: the Parabs of Telfad, they fled. Actually this after s

1379
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 8: THEFYPG took this down. So now the Seen rebels they

1380
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:37,840
Speaker 8: took this down, and this time that the people that

1381
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:40,040
Speaker 8: fled from after into these towns that they were living

1382
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 8: around four or five six IDP camps there, they were

1383
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:46,600
Speaker 8: forced to flee. So the Kurdish groups they were like

1384
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:49,760
Speaker 8: trying to resist the SNA advances, but they were not

1385
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:52,360
Speaker 8: able to resist them because they were completely surrounded because

1386
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:55,519
Speaker 8: as I mentioned, Nobel and Zaka fell, so they were

1387
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:58,160
Speaker 8: like completely pinched from all sides. But before they had

1388
01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 8: always like Nobble and Zacha behind them, so they could

1389
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:03,000
Speaker 8: not not be completely surrounded. But this time they were

1390
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:05,600
Speaker 8: completely surrounded. They were forced to leave there or not

1391
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:08,720
Speaker 8: able to continue the fight. So I think there was

1392
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:11,280
Speaker 8: like a de facto deal or something, because you saw

1393
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:15,839
Speaker 8: like convoys with actually with fighters with weapons and armed hunvies.

1394
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:18,680
Speaker 8: They were like being escorted two checkpoints and they were

1395
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:22,080
Speaker 8: allowed to cross towards Sabka actually a town in northeast Aria.

1396
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 8: And maybe most likely the US they were involved in

1397
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:27,800
Speaker 8: the sort of de facto deal and Turkey, but so

1398
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 8: far the US they haven't comment on that, but most

1399
01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:32,759
Speaker 8: likely there was sort of a deal for the forces

1400
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:35,519
Speaker 8: in Tarafa to leave with the civilians and they're now

1401
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 8: hosted in camps, in displacement camps in the town of Tabca.

1402
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:42,839
Speaker 8: And then there are still Kurts living as I mentioned

1403
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:46,320
Speaker 8: in Astrapia and chef Marsuda to big neighborhoods in Aleppo.

1404
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:49,639
Speaker 8: And then you have also two small Kurdish towns around

1405
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:51,880
Speaker 8: the Hassa which are now controlled by the year National

1406
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:58,440
Speaker 8: Army the Turkish back groups, so the hyattas their local administration.

1407
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:00,639
Speaker 8: They offered the deal to the Kurdish fighters. He said,

1408
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:03,599
Speaker 8: you can leave these two Kurtish neighborhoods and Aleppo without

1409
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:06,040
Speaker 8: any issues and the Curs that are living there, we

1410
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:08,639
Speaker 8: respect them and they can stay there, but the Kurdish

1411
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 8: fighters they have to leave. But then there was a

1412
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:13,880
Speaker 8: statement i think yesterday by the leader of the SEF,

1413
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 8: the Muslim Ubdi. He was saying like we were forced

1414
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 8: to evacuate the people because we were trying to create

1415
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:23,600
Speaker 8: a corridor between these Kurdish enclaves in Aleppo with the

1416
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:26,679
Speaker 8: rest of North East area, because they are like Turkish

1417
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:29,600
Speaker 8: backed rebels and the certain government in between trying to

1418
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:32,719
Speaker 8: trying to make a corridor. So they said this corridor

1419
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 8: was actually was broken and they were forced to evacuate.

1420
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:38,840
Speaker 8: But he said that the Kurtish forces were still in

1421
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:42,600
Speaker 8: Aleppo resisting. So it seems that the YPG didn't completely

1422
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:45,600
Speaker 8: follow this offer of the HS. But of course we

1423
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:47,840
Speaker 8: don't know if there was maybe a backdoor deal with

1424
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:51,800
Speaker 8: the HTS to allow first people in nordern Alapo to

1425
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:53,640
Speaker 8: leave and then maybe in a later phase that they

1426
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 8: will also leave Aleppo because they are there in a

1427
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:56,639
Speaker 8: quite difficult situation.

1428
01:24:56,960 --> 01:24:58,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, a very difficult situation.

1429
01:24:58,760 --> 01:25:01,720
Speaker 8: But they're now accused by I see rebels that they

1430
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:04,360
Speaker 8: are positioning snipers in Aleppo and that they are still

1431
01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:07,839
Speaker 8: a Leppo. But they never left Czech Masut and Astrapia.

1432
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:11,200
Speaker 8: But I also talked to people. They're saying that civilians

1433
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:13,880
Speaker 8: they were offered in Czech Masud and Astrapia to leave

1434
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 8: that area if they wanted to leave, so they were

1435
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:18,920
Speaker 8: not forced to leave, that they had the option opportunity

1436
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:22,000
Speaker 8: to leave that area if they wanted. But then the

1437
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 8: buses didn't show up and they didn't leave, because I mean,

1438
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:29,800
Speaker 8: they need only not only evacuated Kurdish civilians from northern Lepo,

1439
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:32,560
Speaker 8: but I think they also evacuated the Shia population of

1440
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:35,240
Speaker 8: Dubo Zakha. There were sometimes also that they were also

1441
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:38,400
Speaker 8: evacuated to North East Ayria because they don't feel safe

1442
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:41,559
Speaker 8: for their lives if those rebels take those areas. Yeah,

1443
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 8: and they are still there. They don't want to be

1444
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 8: captured by the rebels and used as hostages or so

1445
01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 8: most likely they left with the Kurts to north east

1446
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:52,040
Speaker 8: Syria and what will happen to them. They probably go

1447
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:53,960
Speaker 8: to Iraq or to other areas in Syria.

1448
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 10: Yeah, you meet like in Northeast Aria, you meet sometimes

1449
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:03,160
Speaker 10: like either former ragimes or people who have left regime areas,

1450
01:26:03,240 --> 01:26:17,320
Speaker 10: and like they've made their lives there. So now we

1451
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:19,280
Speaker 10: have this situation right where, yeah, we have these two

1452
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:22,759
Speaker 10: little islands, we'll just call them YPG for the ease

1453
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 10: of to not introduce another acronym, right of like a

1454
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:31,880
Speaker 10: Kurdish armed folks in Aleppo. To complicate this further, and

1455
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:34,559
Speaker 10: people will probably have seen this, I want to explain it.

1456
01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:38,559
Speaker 10: In the Rezor, we have a different situation, right, we

1457
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:43,080
Speaker 10: have their the SDF attacking Iranian back Relicious and the regime.

1458
01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:46,240
Speaker 10: Do you feel comfortable explaining what's going on in Derisora

1459
01:26:46,280 --> 01:26:47,480
Speaker 10: where that's a different calculus.

1460
01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:53,120
Speaker 8: Yeah. So since former president or the incoming president Donald

1461
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:56,000
Speaker 8: Trump when he pulled out troops from Syria in twenty

1462
01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:59,479
Speaker 8: nineteen when Turkey did an offensive against the Curves and

1463
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 8: Telabatasaain at that point in the US, they left, but

1464
01:27:03,560 --> 01:27:06,040
Speaker 8: then there was so much criticism from both Democrats and

1465
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:10,160
Speaker 8: Republicans that he was forced to come back. So until now,

1466
01:27:10,240 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 8: there are still nine hundred Jewish troops in Detozor Province

1467
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 8: and in Husska Province, which is actually not a lot

1468
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 8: because if you look to for instance, South Korea, there

1469
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:22,280
Speaker 8: are thousands of troops in South Korea and in other places.

1470
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:24,160
Speaker 8: So it's not very a lot. But in the US

1471
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:27,000
Speaker 8: discussions it's always discussed all we have troops in Syria,

1472
01:27:27,040 --> 01:27:29,599
Speaker 8: but actually compared to other countries, is not a very

1473
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:30,080
Speaker 8: big number.

1474
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:32,919
Speaker 10: Nine hundred people, no, not unto very small footprint.

1475
01:27:33,360 --> 01:27:36,519
Speaker 8: So they have the small footprint in Detzor and Hassaka

1476
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:40,120
Speaker 8: and they basically they worked with the Kurtish led forces

1477
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:43,560
Speaker 8: since the Battle of Kobani to basically defeat the Isiskelephate

1478
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:47,200
Speaker 8: because it was a threat to European security and US security,

1479
01:27:47,240 --> 01:27:49,519
Speaker 8: and they were trying to carry out attacks in Europe,

1480
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:51,400
Speaker 8: and there were many attacks in Europe and when civilians

1481
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 8: were killed, so ye had the anti Isis fight. This

1482
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 8: is one of the reasons actually why the Kurtish led

1483
01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:58,920
Speaker 8: forces they were forced to go to Detozor because it

1484
01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:01,800
Speaker 8: was their last beast on in twenty nineteen when they

1485
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:06,280
Speaker 8: defeated the territorial Caliphate of Isis. So since there you

1486
01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:08,519
Speaker 8: have this the SEF there and they have their own

1487
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:12,240
Speaker 8: administration in the Rezor and they have like local forces

1488
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:15,200
Speaker 8: and Arabs that joined them in the fight against sizes.

1489
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:17,840
Speaker 8: So what happened that in the last few years, in

1490
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:20,839
Speaker 8: the last one or two years, there have been attempts

1491
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:24,080
Speaker 8: by the Syrian government and Iranian back groups basically to

1492
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 8: recruit Arab tribes to fight against the SDF. So there

1493
01:28:28,120 --> 01:28:31,760
Speaker 8: have been several skirmishes and battles since that time. After

1494
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 8: also the SDF they arrested a commander of them that

1495
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:38,800
Speaker 8: they thought he was like going to portrade them. So

1496
01:28:38,920 --> 01:28:41,960
Speaker 8: since that time, there were like several skirmishes between these

1497
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:45,679
Speaker 8: milasies that are calling themselves the tribal army or something

1498
01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:47,880
Speaker 8: in that regard. And then you have the SCF, so

1499
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:50,120
Speaker 8: you had like fights between the Ranian back groups and

1500
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:55,439
Speaker 8: the SDF. And recently with all the changes in Syria,

1501
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:58,280
Speaker 8: there were a number of villages around seven six villages

1502
01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:01,799
Speaker 8: that were actually Russian army was based in those villages.

1503
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:05,040
Speaker 8: It was like the line sort of dividing the US

1504
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:08,479
Speaker 8: back as theF forces and the Syrian government forces. And

1505
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:11,120
Speaker 8: there's also a river, but those villages they were like

1506
01:29:11,240 --> 01:29:13,120
Speaker 8: in front of the river, so the river is sort

1507
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 8: of naturally dividing the areas between the SDF and the

1508
01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:19,320
Speaker 8: Syrian government. But there were like still a number of

1509
01:29:19,400 --> 01:29:21,400
Speaker 8: villages that were not on that line, and actually there

1510
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:25,280
Speaker 8: were Russian troops based in that villages. Yeah, but with

1511
01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 8: the whole crisis with Aleppo and the fight now between

1512
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:32,519
Speaker 8: the HCS and the Syrian government in Hannah, the Russians

1513
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:35,000
Speaker 8: they moved out from those villages. So those villages that

1514
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:39,439
Speaker 8: actually are almost empty, there is nothing there. So during

1515
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:44,320
Speaker 8: this situation they as UF they just moved in those

1516
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 8: villages and there was actually not so much fighting, although

1517
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:49,559
Speaker 8: on the social media I see that all there's fighting

1518
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:52,720
Speaker 8: and this kind of stuff. So there was some over

1519
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 8: these like the last one or two years, they have

1520
01:29:56,240 --> 01:29:58,599
Speaker 8: been heavy fighting between the SDF and Reign Impact Groups,

1521
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:01,080
Speaker 8: but in these villages not so much because it was

1522
01:30:01,200 --> 01:30:04,040
Speaker 8: just anti villages and they just took them over and

1523
01:30:04,160 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 8: there was no one there.

1524
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:09,599
Speaker 10: Yeah, Okay, So that leaves us with like I guess

1525
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:12,600
Speaker 10: an e S getting a little bit larger in the

1526
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:14,719
Speaker 10: south and then how smaller in the west.

1527
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:18,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, very much faller in the west. And it's even

1528
01:30:18,120 --> 01:30:20,719
Speaker 8: not clear if they can keep their presence in Aleppo

1529
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:25,280
Speaker 8: because I mean, Chef Marshut and Asia is now completely

1530
01:30:25,320 --> 01:30:28,880
Speaker 8: surrounded by the HDS, and it seems that the HDS

1531
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:31,240
Speaker 8: they have been a little bit softer with the SDF

1532
01:30:31,320 --> 01:30:34,160
Speaker 8: and YPG than the SNA, because the SNA, I mean,

1533
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:37,800
Speaker 8: they have their issues because they're also backed by the

1534
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:40,200
Speaker 8: Turkish government and the Turkish government they always said their

1535
01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:44,960
Speaker 8: policy is basically to stop the SDF from treating autonomous area,

1536
01:30:45,120 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 8: and they also said the SDF is linked to the PIKK,

1537
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:49,680
Speaker 8: although the SDF they deny links to the pi AK,

1538
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:53,760
Speaker 8: although they don't deny their idological affiliation with the prison

1539
01:30:53,840 --> 01:30:54,479
Speaker 8: pick A k Here.

1540
01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:55,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1541
01:30:55,479 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 8: So Turkey always said that they are feeling threatened and

1542
01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 8: they have always claim that attacks were planned on Turkey

1543
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 8: from northeast Asyria, from Rosava on on Turkey. Yeah, THEFF

1544
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:10,720
Speaker 8: deny that. I think there was also there was not

1545
01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:12,479
Speaker 8: so a long time ago. There was also an attack

1546
01:31:12,520 --> 01:31:14,800
Speaker 8: in Ankara, and Turkey also claimed that it was a

1547
01:31:14,920 --> 01:31:18,800
Speaker 8: carry planned from British cities in Syria. Yeah, so that's

1548
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:21,240
Speaker 8: that's like the situation.

1549
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:23,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, they gives Yeah, they give us a pretty good

1550
01:31:23,960 --> 01:31:37,280
Speaker 10: summary of the situation. I think. So let's talk about

1551
01:31:37,400 --> 01:31:40,400
Speaker 10: HTS a bit, because I think you're going to see

1552
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:42,640
Speaker 10: one of two things. Right when we talk about the

1553
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:45,759
Speaker 10: SNA and HDS, A lot of outlets will just collapse

1554
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:48,759
Speaker 10: them under the same descriptor they will just say Syrian rebels,

1555
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:52,160
Speaker 10: and I think people will think of the original largely

1556
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:55,800
Speaker 10: secular uprising in Syria in twenty eleven, and if they

1557
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:58,840
Speaker 10: have not been paying attention, they'll realize that ISIS has

1558
01:31:58,880 --> 01:31:59,479
Speaker 10: been and gone.

1559
01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:01,559
Speaker 3: But they'll think, oh, these must be the same guys.

1560
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 10: These are not the same guys. But some of them

1561
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:06,400
Speaker 10: may be the same guys who are originally part of

1562
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:09,920
Speaker 10: Jiulani was originally sent there by a back daddy way

1563
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:12,360
Speaker 10: back to be part of ISIS. But these are not

1564
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 10: the secular rebels who originally rose up in Syria. And

1565
01:32:16,280 --> 01:32:20,480
Speaker 10: so can you explain like HTS has this very interesting

1566
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:23,639
Speaker 10: kind of legitimacy project right, like it's trying to build

1567
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:27,880
Speaker 10: a pseudo state and present like a kind of gentler Jihadism.

1568
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:30,080
Speaker 10: I don't know how to say it, but can you

1569
01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 10: explain a little bit of this transformation of HDS and

1570
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:33,080
Speaker 10: what you make of it.

1571
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 8: I mean, as you mentioned that Julani, the current leader

1572
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:40,760
Speaker 8: of the HS, he was sent by at that time,

1573
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:44,879
Speaker 8: I think it was al Kai the are the Islamic

1574
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:48,800
Speaker 8: state of Iraq, and yeah, Syria basically to establish like

1575
01:32:50,200 --> 01:32:51,760
Speaker 8: but at that time there was no ISIS yet I

1576
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:56,840
Speaker 8: think so so later basically he refused to budge allegiance

1577
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:59,519
Speaker 8: and he basically did his own thing. He created Jabalta Nostra,

1578
01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:04,920
Speaker 8: which was the affiliate of al Qaeda. But then he

1579
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:09,280
Speaker 8: decided to basically split from al Qaeda and he announced

1580
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:11,920
Speaker 8: like these links to I think at the time that

1581
01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:15,120
Speaker 8: it was Zawahiri, but I'm not sure. So he basically

1582
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 8: split from al Qaeda, and you still have a split

1583
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:19,880
Speaker 8: off group from al Qaeda in itlyp it's called h

1584
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:23,040
Speaker 8: Russell Din, which they actually they had issues with. They

1585
01:33:23,120 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 8: had some problems with them. So HDS, although Isis territory

1586
01:33:29,120 --> 01:33:34,640
Speaker 8: was defeated twenty nineteen, the HTS or they basically with

1587
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:36,760
Speaker 8: all the creates in Syria because I mean they have

1588
01:33:36,880 --> 01:33:38,920
Speaker 8: been fighting out for all the problems between the Sern

1589
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:42,640
Speaker 8: government and different armed groups. They managed to sort of

1590
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 8: cementa crowd throw in the province of lip and they

1591
01:33:45,320 --> 01:33:48,800
Speaker 8: created their own little administration there. But despite that, they

1592
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:50,799
Speaker 8: say that we don't have any links to al Qaeda.

1593
01:33:50,840 --> 01:33:52,840
Speaker 8: I mean they're still listed by for instance, the US

1594
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 8: as a terrorist organization.

1595
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:57,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, there's a ten million dollar bounty on Julani still, right,

1596
01:33:57,880 --> 01:34:00,360
Speaker 10: they just never took it away from Yeah, I mean.

1597
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 8: It seems that the US doesn't believe this moderation idea

1598
01:34:05,160 --> 01:34:08,439
Speaker 8: that the HS tries to show them more moderately. But

1599
01:34:08,640 --> 01:34:10,639
Speaker 8: my idea of the HS, it's more like a sort

1600
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:13,160
Speaker 8: of a lighter, softer version of ices. I mean, they're

1601
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:16,479
Speaker 8: not like ices that they're gonna broadcast people being blown

1602
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:19,200
Speaker 8: up or beheaded on the film screen. It's just that

1603
01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:21,680
Speaker 8: they do it in the back of the screen. I mean,

1604
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:26,040
Speaker 8: there's people being executed according to the Islamic Shadia a lot,

1605
01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:28,080
Speaker 8: there are people being imprisoned. I mean, you also had

1606
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:31,519
Speaker 8: protests actually it left against Jolani that they were actually

1607
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:36,320
Speaker 8: opposed to the authoritarian rule. And I think then you

1608
01:34:36,439 --> 01:34:40,120
Speaker 8: have separate from the sort of the Islamic Islamics, which

1609
01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:42,519
Speaker 8: you can actually sort of compare to the Taliban. Yes,

1610
01:34:42,560 --> 01:34:45,080
Speaker 8: I think that's a good comparison, Yes, to the Taliban.

1611
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:47,639
Speaker 8: And also I think Taliban they have some relationships actually

1612
01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:50,680
Speaker 8: the HS, and they also congratulated the HTS after they

1613
01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:54,320
Speaker 8: took control of Aleppo, so sort of it's like a

1614
01:34:54,439 --> 01:34:57,799
Speaker 8: Taliban rule, though of course Taliban is very different contacts

1615
01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:02,040
Speaker 8: related to Syria culture Afghan culture, so it's different of course,

1616
01:35:02,080 --> 01:35:05,320
Speaker 8: but they're both, yes, Islamist projects with a national project

1617
01:35:05,400 --> 01:35:07,759
Speaker 8: at the same time. So it's Islamist project for Syria

1618
01:35:08,280 --> 01:35:11,439
Speaker 8: and the Taliban have an Islamist project for Afghanistan, although

1619
01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:15,160
Speaker 8: you also have Pakistani Taliban et cetera. Yeah, so it's

1620
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:18,040
Speaker 8: not like a transnational jihad, but you can call it

1621
01:35:18,200 --> 01:35:19,479
Speaker 8: like a national jihad maybe.

1622
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:22,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think that's the crucial difference, right at least

1623
01:35:22,240 --> 01:35:25,720
Speaker 10: for the US, like that makes them kind of more

1624
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:29,760
Speaker 10: amenable than than ISIS or even Al kaider Is that. Yeah,

1625
01:35:29,800 --> 01:35:33,360
Speaker 10: they have this nationally contained Jahadi vision, so.

1626
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:35,719
Speaker 8: They don't do attacks in Europe or in the US.

1627
01:35:36,439 --> 01:35:39,920
Speaker 8: But of course there are several groups in ITLAB that

1628
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:42,640
Speaker 8: are sort of falling under the control of HDS that

1629
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:46,960
Speaker 8: are possibly could do external attacks, et cetera. And apart

1630
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:49,600
Speaker 8: from that, you have the Syrian National Army. So the

1631
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:52,400
Speaker 8: Syrian National Army, it's like a mix of different groups.

1632
01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:54,360
Speaker 8: As you mentioned in the beginning of the series Civil War,

1633
01:35:54,439 --> 01:35:57,320
Speaker 8: you had the Phisian Army, but then the Free Serrian Army.

1634
01:35:57,360 --> 01:36:00,920
Speaker 8: They split in several groups. I mean some like linked

1635
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:05,240
Speaker 8: to Muslim brotherhoods, some linked to Turkmen groups, other groups

1636
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:08,760
Speaker 8: secular groups et cetera. So all these groups that were

1637
01:36:08,840 --> 01:36:14,200
Speaker 8: basically fighting in different provinces, they were all gathered because Turkey.

1638
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:17,120
Speaker 8: They did several Turkish military did several operations in twenty

1639
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:20,880
Speaker 8: sixteen in northern Syria with the main aim is to

1640
01:36:21,120 --> 01:36:24,760
Speaker 8: stop the YPG from linking up the Kurdish enclaves on

1641
01:36:24,840 --> 01:36:27,519
Speaker 8: the border with Turkey. So they did I think the

1642
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 8: first one I was Euphraid Shield. Then they had I

1643
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:33,639
Speaker 8: think Operation All of Brands in Afrin in twenty eighteen.

1644
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:35,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, incredible names.

1645
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:38,800
Speaker 8: Then I think the last operation account Recalled was in

1646
01:36:38,840 --> 01:36:43,560
Speaker 8: twenty nineteen when they took Telaviat and Serkania from the

1647
01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:47,720
Speaker 8: Kurtish Laud forces the YPGSDA. So they had these three operations.

1648
01:36:47,960 --> 01:36:50,679
Speaker 8: And these groups are sort of a mixed as I mentioned,

1649
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:55,040
Speaker 8: a different groups with also different ideologies. Some are more

1650
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:59,599
Speaker 8: Turkmen in nature, some of them are more Islamist in nature.

1651
01:36:59,760 --> 01:37:03,599
Speaker 8: Some there are like sort of leftovers from secular groups

1652
01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:05,320
Speaker 8: that used to FI. Some of them even they in

1653
01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:07,600
Speaker 8: the past they received support from the US from the

1654
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:09,840
Speaker 8: CIA against the Seian regimes. So some of them they

1655
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:13,599
Speaker 8: receive support and this is like a sort of umbrella

1656
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:18,160
Speaker 8: of self organizations. So HDS is one group and they

1657
01:37:18,240 --> 01:37:21,160
Speaker 8: control also other groups in but it's one group. But

1658
01:37:21,280 --> 01:37:24,200
Speaker 8: the SNA there are like a lot of different groups,

1659
01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:27,080
Speaker 8: and they also have been fighting each other several times

1660
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:30,160
Speaker 8: in areas and Turkish control. So this is very different

1661
01:37:30,240 --> 01:37:33,320
Speaker 8: and there are more sectarian in nature, let's say more.

1662
01:37:34,160 --> 01:37:36,680
Speaker 8: I mean, they have also been less under control than

1663
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:38,720
Speaker 8: the HTS in the way that there have been a

1664
01:37:38,760 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 8: lot of kidnappings for ransom, a lot of like sexual

1665
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 8: violence against women and rape. This is all documented by

1666
01:37:46,520 --> 01:37:50,560
Speaker 8: self organizations, Juan organizations. They also have child soldiers, so

1667
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:53,240
Speaker 8: they have different kinds of issues, and but they have

1668
01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:56,439
Speaker 8: been more accused of like more sort of gang style

1669
01:37:56,560 --> 01:37:59,800
Speaker 8: of activity, and that's why. Also some of them there

1670
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 8: were sanctioned by the US and also some of them

1671
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:05,920
Speaker 8: they have integrated like former IIS fighters in their ranks.

1672
01:38:06,240 --> 01:38:08,040
Speaker 8: And you also have like first you have some groups

1673
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:11,639
Speaker 8: that are frondos or the other are originally for instance

1674
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:14,640
Speaker 8: from the area around Mato or Aza. Some of them

1675
01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:17,680
Speaker 8: they could they were displaced from Gutta, so a lot

1676
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:20,040
Speaker 8: of them there also they came because the Serian government

1677
01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:22,599
Speaker 8: they advanced with Russian support, and then these groups were

1678
01:38:22,640 --> 01:38:26,439
Speaker 8: brought by buses to the areas under Turkish control. Yeah,

1679
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:30,080
Speaker 8: so these areas became a sort of like maybe it's

1680
01:38:30,080 --> 01:38:31,920
Speaker 8: a bad word, or sort of a dumping ground for

1681
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:35,559
Speaker 8: all these Srian rebel groups that were not completely defeated

1682
01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 8: but displaced by Serrian government and offenses with the Russian support.

1683
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:43,799
Speaker 8: So I mean before they were an Aleppo and homes

1684
01:38:43,840 --> 01:38:45,960
Speaker 8: and Hamma and Damascats in all this group they were

1685
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:49,720
Speaker 8: moved with buses through agreements between around Turkey, Russia and

1686
01:38:49,800 --> 01:38:54,639
Speaker 8: Syria to northern Syria to it and now these groups

1687
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:57,880
Speaker 8: they are coming back because they were never completely defeated.

1688
01:38:57,920 --> 01:38:59,920
Speaker 8: I mean they had their own administration, so the Syrian

1689
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:04,920
Speaker 8: Army they fall under the Turkish back the Cerian opposition

1690
01:39:05,400 --> 01:39:08,320
Speaker 8: I think they call it the Serian National Coalition or

1691
01:39:08,360 --> 01:39:10,280
Speaker 8: in Arabic the ital AF, so they have their own

1692
01:39:10,360 --> 01:39:14,080
Speaker 8: interim government administration in THEIRS on the Turkish control, and

1693
01:39:14,160 --> 01:39:17,160
Speaker 8: then you have the Salvation government under the Ahso the

1694
01:39:17,240 --> 01:39:21,120
Speaker 8: are t two different administrations. And they also doesn't mean

1695
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:23,640
Speaker 8: that they agree with so so just calling them the

1696
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:27,679
Speaker 8: rebels it's a little bit like, yeah, it doesn't really

1697
01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:31,040
Speaker 8: doesn't fit to the reality. But of course you also

1698
01:39:31,120 --> 01:39:34,639
Speaker 8: have to deal with the fact that for media, if

1699
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:38,360
Speaker 8: they want to explain complex situations to a general public,

1700
01:39:38,439 --> 01:39:41,040
Speaker 8: it's very difficult to just say, Okay, you have this acronym,

1701
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:42,920
Speaker 8: and you have this acronym, and you have the white

1702
01:39:43,400 --> 01:39:45,960
Speaker 8: and the Ahs and the SNA. So people they will

1703
01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:49,080
Speaker 8: lose their interest. So that's why it always becomes sort

1704
01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:50,600
Speaker 8: of this black and white. So, oh, you have the

1705
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:53,000
Speaker 8: Syrian insurgence and then you have the Serian government, and

1706
01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:56,479
Speaker 8: then it's already complex enough to also add Kurts to

1707
01:39:56,600 --> 01:39:59,559
Speaker 8: the mix. So they also, of course often the Turkish government.

1708
01:39:59,560 --> 01:40:02,280
Speaker 8: They got very angry that the media keeps calling the

1709
01:40:02,400 --> 01:40:05,080
Speaker 8: YPG the curse because oh, they don't represent the curse.

1710
01:40:05,520 --> 01:40:07,360
Speaker 8: But you can't say that with any group in Syria

1711
01:40:07,560 --> 01:40:10,040
Speaker 8: or anywhere in the world. I mean, I mean you

1712
01:40:10,120 --> 01:40:12,439
Speaker 8: have in Americans, you have different political parties. You have

1713
01:40:12,520 --> 01:40:15,040
Speaker 8: different parties in Syria, you have different parties in Turkey.

1714
01:40:15,160 --> 01:40:18,680
Speaker 8: So these groups don't represent all the Syrians, or all

1715
01:40:18,720 --> 01:40:20,919
Speaker 8: the Arabs, or all the Kurts or all the Allwais.

1716
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:24,200
Speaker 8: There are always different political factions and that's what it

1717
01:40:24,360 --> 01:40:26,559
Speaker 8: makes so complicated in Syria because a lot of these

1718
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:30,200
Speaker 8: based groups got fragmented. But actually with versus the support

1719
01:40:30,280 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 8: of Turkey, they actually united on the one umbrella, which

1720
01:40:33,120 --> 01:40:35,639
Speaker 8: is called the Syrian National Army. And then of course

1721
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:38,679
Speaker 8: even on the Syrian government side, there's many different groups.

1722
01:40:38,760 --> 01:40:41,120
Speaker 8: I mean you have you have Iranian back armed groups,

1723
01:40:41,200 --> 01:40:44,000
Speaker 8: you have groups from Lebanon that are helping the Hezbola

1724
01:40:44,040 --> 01:40:46,960
Speaker 8: Albani says Bola. Then you have Iraqi Iranian back groups

1725
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:49,759
Speaker 8: that are supporting Syrian government. Then you have also Shias

1726
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:52,800
Speaker 8: that were recruited from Afghanistan. And then also in the

1727
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:55,280
Speaker 8: Syrian government security structure, I mean, in the past there

1728
01:40:55,400 --> 01:40:57,360
Speaker 8: was no room for malicious but they have, for instance,

1729
01:40:57,439 --> 01:40:59,960
Speaker 8: the NDF, which is sort of like a Syrian govern

1730
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:03,360
Speaker 8: want back militia, which even sometimes part with the Syrian

1731
01:41:03,360 --> 01:41:06,040
Speaker 8: government itself when they tried to become become more too

1732
01:41:06,120 --> 01:41:08,479
Speaker 8: much powerful, sort of like what you haven't Wagner in

1733
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:11,280
Speaker 8: Russia that we try to challenge the Russian government and

1734
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:14,320
Speaker 8: then they got third bailed. So it's like even with

1735
01:41:14,439 --> 01:41:17,840
Speaker 8: a certain sort of the forces back in the Cerian army,

1736
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:20,280
Speaker 8: it's not like so simple. It's also not you have

1737
01:41:20,439 --> 01:41:23,160
Speaker 8: just a Serian army that's it. You have also different

1738
01:41:23,240 --> 01:41:25,840
Speaker 8: kinds of militia, some supported by Iran, some supported by

1739
01:41:25,960 --> 01:41:28,719
Speaker 8: Russia that are backing the Syrian government.

1740
01:41:29,080 --> 01:41:33,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, everyone wants I think Ukraine has really reinforced this.

1741
01:41:33,479 --> 01:41:35,800
Speaker 10: They want war to be like colors on a map

1742
01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:38,040
Speaker 10: and a front line, and the front line moves and

1743
01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:41,240
Speaker 10: that's you know, and that's just not how like oftentimes

1744
01:41:41,280 --> 01:41:45,000
Speaker 10: there's little lines on a map will be in reality

1745
01:41:45,120 --> 01:41:47,479
Speaker 10: it's people driving around and pick up trucks with dishcas

1746
01:41:47,479 --> 01:41:49,560
Speaker 10: in the back, wondering where the other guys are and

1747
01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:50,160
Speaker 10: what's going on.

1748
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:50,479
Speaker 4: You know.

1749
01:41:50,560 --> 01:41:52,880
Speaker 10: It's not like Ukraine where you have trenches and people

1750
01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:55,400
Speaker 10: firing each other from trench lines to gradually move. And

1751
01:41:56,400 --> 01:41:58,639
Speaker 10: as much as it would be easy to have modelists,

1752
01:41:58,720 --> 01:41:59,439
Speaker 10: we we just don't.

1753
01:41:59,520 --> 01:41:59,920
Speaker 3: In Syria.

1754
01:42:00,680 --> 01:42:03,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, sorry, it's different because of it's more

1755
01:42:03,280 --> 01:42:06,960
Speaker 8: there are more religious and ethnic groups done in Ukraine.

1756
01:42:06,960 --> 01:42:09,960
Speaker 8: I mean ucrin Is you have the the Ukrainians and

1757
01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:12,360
Speaker 8: the Russians, and I mean you also have people speaking

1758
01:42:12,439 --> 01:42:14,920
Speaker 8: Russian in other areas of Ukraine. But it's where it's

1759
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:19,360
Speaker 8: much more complex in in in Syria. Althoio obviously also

1760
01:42:19,439 --> 01:42:22,160
Speaker 8: have different groups fighting in Ukraine, but in Syria it's

1761
01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:24,679
Speaker 8: a bit more complex and it's difficult for the media

1762
01:42:24,800 --> 01:42:28,240
Speaker 8: to get a grip on that without like you know,

1763
01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:30,439
Speaker 8: like trying to also explain to a normal reader of

1764
01:42:30,479 --> 01:42:33,080
Speaker 8: what is going on in Syria. But also in general

1765
01:42:33,160 --> 01:42:36,200
Speaker 8: you have all this international media that are cutting down

1766
01:42:36,320 --> 01:42:38,840
Speaker 8: costs and they're closing there for and bureaus. So also

1767
01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:42,840
Speaker 8: i mean the money for like extensive reporting in Syria

1768
01:42:42,920 --> 01:42:46,599
Speaker 8: is also getting less or in general in internationally speaking, yes,

1769
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:48,400
Speaker 8: And then you have another problem is that you have

1770
01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:51,360
Speaker 8: the problem of access in Syria. So if you are

1771
01:42:52,439 --> 01:42:54,320
Speaker 8: wanted to go to the same government area is very

1772
01:42:54,320 --> 01:42:56,960
Speaker 8: difficult because if you have reported in Syrian rebel areas,

1773
01:42:57,040 --> 01:42:58,880
Speaker 8: the same government is not going to give you a visa.

1774
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:01,599
Speaker 8: You have to be like very l Serian government if

1775
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:05,439
Speaker 8: you go to the areas under rebel control to be honest, like,

1776
01:43:05,560 --> 01:43:08,679
Speaker 8: it's very difficult for any journalists to go to HDS

1777
01:43:08,800 --> 01:43:12,640
Speaker 8: areas or the Eran National Army area. So even if

1778
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:15,680
Speaker 8: a journalist wants to report positively about the rebels, it's

1779
01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:19,240
Speaker 8: very difficult. Then they have like a press adcutation in

1780
01:43:19,400 --> 01:43:21,719
Speaker 8: Turkey and they have to cross the boarders very complicated,

1781
01:43:21,800 --> 01:43:25,559
Speaker 8: so there's barely in very rare cases journalists going into

1782
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:31,120
Speaker 8: northwest Aria and then with the Kurdish controlled areas if

1783
01:43:31,160 --> 01:43:33,040
Speaker 8: you can call them like that, like northeast here, it's

1784
01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:36,719
Speaker 8: a bit easier. I mean, there are people flying to Iraqi,

1785
01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:39,120
Speaker 8: Curtistan and then they can get like a permission from

1786
01:43:39,120 --> 01:43:42,519
Speaker 8: the Kurdish authorities. They're in Iraqi, Curtistan and then they

1787
01:43:42,520 --> 01:43:44,479
Speaker 8: can cross the border. So it's a bit easier. But

1788
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:48,880
Speaker 8: the number of journals going there is very limited, and

1789
01:43:49,040 --> 01:43:51,320
Speaker 8: most of the interests actually of the Western media was

1790
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:53,479
Speaker 8: not so much about the cern conflict. It was more

1791
01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:58,360
Speaker 8: about this western ISIS woman and ISIS fighters that were

1792
01:43:58,600 --> 01:44:01,600
Speaker 8: jailed or held in in Northeast Airia. So most of

1793
01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:04,479
Speaker 8: the focus of the Western media was most of the time, okay,

1794
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:06,960
Speaker 8: what's happening in the whole camp, because you have thousands

1795
01:44:07,000 --> 01:44:10,080
Speaker 8: of ISIS families there or in versus in the prison. So,

1796
01:44:10,200 --> 01:44:13,360
Speaker 8: I mean, the American journals were interested in US doash fighters,

1797
01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:16,759
Speaker 8: and the Dutch were interested in Dutch ices families are fighters,

1798
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:19,280
Speaker 8: and the same for many other countries.

1799
01:44:20,240 --> 01:44:22,720
Speaker 10: Yeah, the British media is terrible for that. They'll go

1800
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:25,560
Speaker 10: to northeast Syria and then talk about Northeast Airia and

1801
01:44:25,640 --> 01:44:27,839
Speaker 10: this our whole just exists as kind of a bubble

1802
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:29,799
Speaker 10: outside of context in that reporting.

1803
01:44:30,240 --> 01:44:33,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, they just talk about Shamima Begoon and she became

1804
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:36,360
Speaker 8: sort of a celebrity in the UK. Yeah, although I

1805
01:44:36,439 --> 01:44:39,360
Speaker 8: think even on that actress nowadays it's like very limited

1806
01:44:39,439 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 8: because a lot of the zer countries in the UK

1807
01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:44,400
Speaker 8: they have their own domestic issues. So also in general,

1808
01:44:44,439 --> 01:44:47,600
Speaker 8: the interesting in Syria has gone down a lot, and

1809
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:50,240
Speaker 8: I think also with this current conflict and Aleppo, it

1810
01:44:50,280 --> 01:44:52,840
Speaker 8: will get some intention in the media for a few days,

1811
01:44:52,920 --> 01:44:55,479
Speaker 8: but at some point it's gonna go down again, yes,

1812
01:44:55,560 --> 01:44:58,439
Speaker 8: of course, and maybe there will be conflicts and other

1813
01:44:58,520 --> 01:45:00,519
Speaker 8: parts of the world again. So I think at some

1814
01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:03,080
Speaker 8: point also this media attention because the media attention for

1815
01:45:03,160 --> 01:45:07,639
Speaker 8: Sir already was like very low, unless it's gonna affect

1816
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:10,200
Speaker 8: Europe in a large extent because it could also create

1817
01:45:10,320 --> 01:45:14,920
Speaker 8: new waves of refugees trying to go to Europe. Yeah,

1818
01:45:15,240 --> 01:45:17,640
Speaker 8: there's many people that were displaced. Again. It was a

1819
01:45:17,760 --> 01:45:20,519
Speaker 8: very nice post on X by one Journeys from I

1820
01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:23,439
Speaker 8: think a Saudi outlet, and he was saying it's very

1821
01:45:24,040 --> 01:45:26,719
Speaker 8: sad to see. He was basically saying like at any moment,

1822
01:45:26,800 --> 01:45:29,320
Speaker 8: our people can be displaced at any time or can

1823
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:32,840
Speaker 8: be displaced again. So that's like sort of the life

1824
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:36,240
Speaker 8: of Syrians that live in these different like front lines,

1825
01:45:36,439 --> 01:45:38,919
Speaker 8: like anytime they can displace, like the people at Traffreine

1826
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:42,360
Speaker 8: they were displaced in twenty eighteen and now twenty twenty

1827
01:45:42,400 --> 01:45:45,439
Speaker 8: four they were displaced again. And then you have people

1828
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:48,000
Speaker 8: displaced by the Syrian government living in the houses of

1829
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:51,519
Speaker 8: kurts in Afrine and they're also victims of this conflict.

1830
01:45:51,640 --> 01:45:58,040
Speaker 8: So yeah, so it's a very complicated situation, people being displaced,

1831
01:45:58,120 --> 01:46:00,920
Speaker 8: moving in the houses of displaced and displace living in

1832
01:46:01,720 --> 01:46:04,320
Speaker 8: other people's houses that are also displaced. So it's like

1833
01:46:04,400 --> 01:46:07,600
Speaker 8: a very cynical and sad situation.

1834
01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:11,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, and a very very difficult one for civilians. And certainly,

1835
01:46:11,240 --> 01:46:14,280
Speaker 10: like with the changing government in the US, it seems

1836
01:46:14,360 --> 01:46:17,320
Speaker 10: unlikely that we will be reaching out to help those

1837
01:46:17,479 --> 01:46:20,960
Speaker 10: those displaced civilians in the near future. And certainly we've

1838
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:23,840
Speaker 10: seen a lot of Kurdish people who have been displaced

1839
01:46:24,479 --> 01:46:27,519
Speaker 10: either by Turkish aggression or who there's a whole other

1840
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:30,280
Speaker 10: situation with the Kurdish areas in Turkey at the moment

1841
01:46:30,400 --> 01:46:32,519
Speaker 10: and their elections and such which we don't have time

1842
01:46:32,560 --> 01:46:34,160
Speaker 10: to go into but many of them have come to

1843
01:46:34,200 --> 01:46:36,400
Speaker 10: the US, and I've interviewed lots of them for this show,

1844
01:46:36,439 --> 01:46:39,680
Speaker 10: so we've I think people will be familiar with that, right,

1845
01:46:39,680 --> 01:46:41,280
Speaker 10: I mean, I think that's probably about all we have

1846
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:43,840
Speaker 10: time for. But I wanted to offer you a chance.

1847
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:46,960
Speaker 10: You have very good tweets, you have a very good

1848
01:46:47,160 --> 01:46:49,920
Speaker 10: understanding of the whole situation. You have your articles do

1849
01:46:50,160 --> 01:46:53,280
Speaker 10: an excellent job of making it understandable. So where can

1850
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:55,360
Speaker 10: people find your writing and follow you?

1851
01:46:55,760 --> 01:46:58,360
Speaker 8: Well, I mean I you can find my tweets on

1852
01:46:58,520 --> 01:47:03,040
Speaker 8: my personal the page which is on my name Lady

1853
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:08,439
Speaker 8: Melberg at x Vivan Wrockenberg. And also I write for

1854
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:11,639
Speaker 8: different outlets and think tanks like first As, I write

1855
01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:15,439
Speaker 8: for mid at least I fig form from the Washington Institute. Also,

1856
01:47:15,479 --> 01:47:18,920
Speaker 8: I've been writing some pieces for Carnegie, So yeah, I've

1857
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:23,840
Speaker 8: been if we're writing for several places on the current situation. Yeah,

1858
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:26,920
Speaker 8: and sometimes Side to Interview, Side talked on BBC a

1859
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:32,040
Speaker 8: few times on the situation and Aduchavella. So you can

1860
01:47:32,120 --> 01:47:35,600
Speaker 8: find my work on my Twitter profile. Always post my

1861
01:47:35,720 --> 01:47:38,400
Speaker 8: articles there and yeah, yep, that's great.

1862
01:47:38,479 --> 01:47:41,280
Speaker 10: Is there anything else you'd like to maybe suggest that

1863
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:43,400
Speaker 10: people follow I think it could be really easy to

1864
01:47:43,479 --> 01:47:46,679
Speaker 10: get a lot of propaganda when it comes to two sirius,

1865
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:49,360
Speaker 10: So I think you'd suggest that people kind of get

1866
01:47:49,439 --> 01:47:51,320
Speaker 10: their news from well.

1867
01:47:51,439 --> 01:47:53,400
Speaker 8: I mean, I think in general x is still like

1868
01:47:53,479 --> 01:47:56,040
Speaker 8: a good platform. It has been from the beginning of

1869
01:47:56,080 --> 01:47:59,839
Speaker 8: the series Civil War, although of course you have different accounts,

1870
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:03,439
Speaker 8: different views supporting different factions. So it's always good to

1871
01:48:04,400 --> 01:48:08,200
Speaker 8: verify any videos posted, although it's like more difficult to

1872
01:48:08,320 --> 01:48:10,960
Speaker 8: very five videos than the pictures, but it's always good

1873
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:14,840
Speaker 8: to verify locations and the background of people that are

1874
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:18,559
Speaker 8: posting stuff. And then also I think it's very interesting

1875
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:20,880
Speaker 8: and good to follow the maps of the Serian Civil

1876
01:48:20,880 --> 01:48:23,280
Speaker 8: War because you have several places where they publish maps

1877
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:25,800
Speaker 8: of the civil war, so it's easier to follow it

1878
01:48:25,960 --> 01:48:29,360
Speaker 8: on the map than by tweets or posts on eggs.

1879
01:48:30,080 --> 01:48:32,240
Speaker 8: But I think in general, I mean, I mean, there

1880
01:48:32,240 --> 01:48:35,360
Speaker 8: are still like many international media that are trying to

1881
01:48:35,479 --> 01:48:37,519
Speaker 8: do reporting on Syria, but I think in general what

1882
01:48:37,600 --> 01:48:40,720
Speaker 8: I've seen it's becoming more limited, and it's mostly based on,

1883
01:48:40,880 --> 01:48:43,640
Speaker 8: for instance, the Serum Observretory for Human Rights. Yes, so

1884
01:48:43,760 --> 01:48:46,599
Speaker 8: the same observatory for human rights. It's a good source.

1885
01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:49,960
Speaker 8: They have a page in English and Arabic, although sometimes

1886
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:51,920
Speaker 8: they are the English pages are a bit difficult to

1887
01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:54,000
Speaker 8: follow for people if they don't know the background of

1888
01:48:54,040 --> 01:48:58,320
Speaker 8: the conflict because it's more written for locals. Yeah, and

1889
01:48:58,479 --> 01:49:03,719
Speaker 8: then also you have fends. There's this civil site organization

1890
01:49:03,840 --> 01:49:06,080
Speaker 8: that focus on human rights abuses. I think it's called

1891
01:49:06,439 --> 01:49:09,960
Speaker 8: Seriance for Justice. They are very good reports on the situation,

1892
01:49:10,120 --> 01:49:12,040
Speaker 8: but it's a bit slow because it's not like twenty

1893
01:49:12,080 --> 01:49:15,360
Speaker 8: four hours. I mean it's like they're doing investigative reports

1894
01:49:15,400 --> 01:49:20,760
Speaker 8: on abuses by all sides of the ceriin civil conflict. Yeah,

1895
01:49:21,400 --> 01:49:23,439
Speaker 8: so Johtal I think it is very grud And also

1896
01:49:23,560 --> 01:49:25,840
Speaker 8: like telegram, I mean a lot of these different groups

1897
01:49:25,880 --> 01:49:29,200
Speaker 8: they have telegram channels where they post the latest updates,

1898
01:49:29,240 --> 01:49:31,720
Speaker 8: but of course all of them are quite biased, but

1899
01:49:31,880 --> 01:49:34,560
Speaker 8: bias you will get anyway in such a conflicts, in

1900
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:35,400
Speaker 8: over the war, so.

1901
01:49:36,080 --> 01:49:40,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, everyone's biased to a degree. You will see dead

1902
01:49:40,120 --> 01:49:44,400
Speaker 10: people a lot if you go following telegram channels to

1903
01:49:44,439 --> 01:49:46,559
Speaker 10: the certain civil war. So if that's not something you'd

1904
01:49:46,640 --> 01:49:49,479
Speaker 10: like to see, that's probably not platform to be on.

1905
01:49:50,640 --> 01:49:51,040
Speaker 6: Big Death.

1906
01:49:51,400 --> 01:49:52,760
Speaker 10: Thank you so much for your time. I know it's

1907
01:49:52,840 --> 01:49:54,920
Speaker 10: late with you, and we'll let you get to sleep,

1908
01:49:55,120 --> 01:49:57,519
Speaker 10: and we do appreciate you joining us, and hopefully people

1909
01:49:57,560 --> 01:49:59,960
Speaker 10: will follow you on Twitter and and get good information

1910
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:00,719
Speaker 10: about what's happening.

1911
01:50:01,120 --> 01:50:23,719
Speaker 3: Welcome Dick had Happened Here a podcast that has increasingly

1912
01:50:23,800 --> 01:50:26,519
Speaker 3: become about it happening in other places in the world.

1913
01:50:27,040 --> 01:50:29,240
Speaker 3: I'm your host via wog with me as caare.

1914
01:50:29,439 --> 01:50:29,920
Speaker 8: Hello. Hello.

1915
01:50:30,640 --> 01:50:33,519
Speaker 3: So if I'm remember incorrectly, and it is entirely possible,

1916
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:36,240
Speaker 3: I have forgotten several coups that I've covered. I think

1917
01:50:36,360 --> 01:50:38,120
Speaker 3: this is the second coup that I've covered in six

1918
01:50:38,240 --> 01:50:42,200
Speaker 3: months that feels right. And you know, when we last

1919
01:50:42,320 --> 01:50:44,360
Speaker 3: left the dumbest coup I had ever seen in my

1920
01:50:44,600 --> 01:50:47,720
Speaker 3: entire life. We were in Bolivia and it was a

1921
01:50:48,479 --> 01:50:53,320
Speaker 3: truly spectacularly stupid coup. That coup ended with the army

1922
01:50:53,439 --> 01:50:55,600
Speaker 3: running away from a bunch of protesters who were just

1923
01:50:55,760 --> 01:51:00,200
Speaker 3: like yelling at them meanly, so that one had I

1924
01:51:00,240 --> 01:51:02,439
Speaker 3: thing I've never seen before, which is the army that

1925
01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:04,639
Speaker 3: the protesters were trying to bring something up to break

1926
01:51:04,680 --> 01:51:06,760
Speaker 3: a barricade, and the army ran away before they could

1927
01:51:06,840 --> 01:51:09,599
Speaker 3: get the like anti barricade thing up to the police barricade,

1928
01:51:09,880 --> 01:51:12,800
Speaker 3: So that was a disaster. Today we are talking about

1929
01:51:13,200 --> 01:51:16,680
Speaker 3: what I having now studied this like since it was

1930
01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:20,880
Speaker 3: since it started, I genuinely believe this somehow is an

1931
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:25,320
Speaker 3: even stupider coup than the last. Like I you have

1932
01:51:25,479 --> 01:51:28,320
Speaker 3: to go back to like the CIA coup in Venezuela

1933
01:51:28,640 --> 01:51:31,680
Speaker 3: where everyone just got that like arrested by fishermen to

1934
01:51:31,800 --> 01:51:34,840
Speaker 3: find a stupider coup than this, it is, and even

1935
01:51:34,920 --> 01:51:37,960
Speaker 3: that one, like at least they like landed guys with guns.

1936
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:42,439
Speaker 3: It was over so quick, like yeah, I think the

1937
01:51:42,520 --> 01:51:46,000
Speaker 3: official number is that the amount of time the martial

1938
01:51:46,120 --> 01:51:48,920
Speaker 3: law was technically in effect before the Assembly voted to

1939
01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:50,960
Speaker 3: get rid of it was one hundred and ninety minutes.

1940
01:51:51,280 --> 01:51:53,559
Speaker 2: Like people could have like slept through this coup, which

1941
01:51:53,600 --> 01:51:55,519
Speaker 2: is really funny, right, I.

1942
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:57,479
Speaker 3: Made an executive decision, right, and I was like, I'm

1943
01:51:57,520 --> 01:51:59,479
Speaker 3: going to sleep in for one more hour, so I

1944
01:51:59,560 --> 01:52:01,280
Speaker 3: woke up at eight am instead of seven am, and

1945
01:52:01,320 --> 01:52:03,800
Speaker 3: I missed like half of it because I was just

1946
01:52:03,920 --> 01:52:09,800
Speaker 3: iceleft for one hour. So let's let's let's get into

1947
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:12,559
Speaker 3: a bit about what happened here because you know, as

1948
01:52:12,720 --> 01:52:15,400
Speaker 3: as dumb as this looks now, because it failed this

1949
01:52:16,200 --> 01:52:18,800
Speaker 3: was for people who don't know there was a there

1950
01:52:18,840 --> 01:52:21,600
Speaker 3: was an attempted coup in South Korea. I don't know

1951
01:52:21,680 --> 01:52:24,680
Speaker 3: what day it's gonna be when I don't know what

1952
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:26,479
Speaker 3: day it's gonna be in Korea when this comes out,

1953
01:52:26,560 --> 01:52:32,839
Speaker 3: because yeah, but on on Tuesday day, on our Tuesday

1954
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:36,000
Speaker 3: in like the the it was I think ten thirty

1955
01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:43,080
Speaker 3: night there the hideously unpopular president of Korea, Sok yel yun,

1956
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:49,519
Speaker 3: tried to declared martial law. Une is. His approval rating

1957
01:52:49,920 --> 01:52:53,360
Speaker 3: is like half of Joe Biden's approval rating. Like his

1958
01:52:53,400 --> 01:52:58,400
Speaker 3: approval rating is like twenty percent. He is staggeringly unpopular.

1959
01:52:58,560 --> 01:53:00,880
Speaker 3: He yeah, so you. And he won one election in

1960
01:53:00,920 --> 01:53:05,400
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, very narrowly, in a race where neither

1961
01:53:05,479 --> 01:53:10,120
Speaker 3: of the candidates were particularly good. And he is a hardline,

1962
01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:12,519
Speaker 3: far right dipshit. He's you know, I mean, one of

1963
01:53:12,560 --> 01:53:15,280
Speaker 3: his big things. He has this unbelievably hardline in North Korea,

1964
01:53:15,520 --> 01:53:19,400
Speaker 3: which is not you know, doing anything productive at all.

1965
01:53:20,040 --> 01:53:22,960
Speaker 3: He's also you know, and this is like if you

1966
01:53:22,960 --> 01:53:24,639
Speaker 3: want to look at like, who are his twenty percent

1967
01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:28,880
Speaker 3: of supporters left? He was the guy of the unbelievably

1968
01:53:29,040 --> 01:53:33,479
Speaker 3: unhinged Korean misogynist movement. I guess you would call them,

1969
01:53:34,200 --> 01:53:37,280
Speaker 3: who are some of the worst people on earth. I mean,

1970
01:53:37,479 --> 01:53:40,280
Speaker 3: these are guys who will just There was a court

1971
01:53:40,320 --> 01:53:43,880
Speaker 3: case recently that decided that you can't just like beat

1972
01:53:43,960 --> 01:53:45,840
Speaker 3: someone up for having short hair because you think they're

1973
01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:49,720
Speaker 3: a feminist. Like, that's the kind of like unhinged misogynists

1974
01:53:49,720 --> 01:53:53,800
Speaker 3: that we're dealing with. That's that's Union's base. However, a

1975
01:53:53,880 --> 01:53:55,840
Speaker 3: couple of things have happened since then. One is that

1976
01:53:55,960 --> 01:53:59,320
Speaker 3: he's racked by like a thousand scandals everyone in his

1977
01:53:59,439 --> 01:54:01,679
Speaker 3: in his cabinet. He keeps getting impeached for doing corruption.

1978
01:54:01,920 --> 01:54:04,559
Speaker 3: There are so many different corruption scandals with him going

1979
01:54:04,600 --> 01:54:07,160
Speaker 3: on right now that I was considering like reading out

1980
01:54:07,200 --> 01:54:08,519
Speaker 3: a list of all of them as a joke, but

1981
01:54:08,600 --> 01:54:11,960
Speaker 3: it's too long. One of the important ones is that

1982
01:54:12,160 --> 01:54:15,080
Speaker 3: he was like basically doing like a pay for play

1983
01:54:15,160 --> 01:54:18,280
Speaker 3: thing to like fuck with his own party's primary process.

1984
01:54:18,680 --> 01:54:22,280
Speaker 3: Nice and this has pissed off basically his entire party,

1985
01:54:22,760 --> 01:54:25,000
Speaker 3: which is great, which is exactly the thing you want

1986
01:54:25,040 --> 01:54:26,559
Speaker 3: to be doing right before you auld take the stage

1987
01:54:26,600 --> 01:54:30,320
Speaker 3: of coup, is piss off your own political party. So

1988
01:54:32,080 --> 01:54:36,320
Speaker 3: all right, let's get to the coup. He major problem,

1989
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:38,800
Speaker 3: one of his very major problems is that he hasn't

1990
01:54:38,800 --> 01:54:41,200
Speaker 3: been able to do anything basically since he's been in power.

1991
01:54:41,200 --> 01:54:42,640
Speaker 3: And the reason he hasn't been able to do anything

1992
01:54:42,760 --> 01:54:44,840
Speaker 3: is that his first sort of like off election was

1993
01:54:44,920 --> 01:54:48,760
Speaker 3: this unbelievably crushing electoral defeat for his party. The National Assembly,

1994
01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:52,919
Speaker 3: which is their like parliament, is just straight up controlled

1995
01:54:53,040 --> 01:54:56,720
Speaker 3: by the opposition Democratic like Liberal well, okay, let me

1996
01:54:56,760 --> 01:54:59,320
Speaker 3: be very cific about this is controlled by the opposition

1997
01:54:59,440 --> 01:55:02,120
Speaker 3: Democratic Party, who are the sort of like Korean Liberal

1998
01:55:02,200 --> 01:55:06,840
Speaker 3: Party and also a bunch of like minor allied opposition parties,

1999
01:55:07,160 --> 01:55:11,040
Speaker 3: and they keep on again impeaching all of his cabinet members,

2000
01:55:11,040 --> 01:55:13,000
Speaker 3: which is very funny. You know, he was trying to

2001
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:15,200
Speaker 3: get a budget through and the budget got eviscerated and

2002
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:16,600
Speaker 3: he hasn't been able to do it. So he's been

2003
01:55:16,840 --> 01:55:20,400
Speaker 3: very very angry and very frustrated, and so his plan

2004
01:55:21,080 --> 01:55:23,560
Speaker 3: apparently to deal with this was just to knock out

2005
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:24,560
Speaker 3: the National Assembly.

2006
01:55:25,000 --> 01:55:27,080
Speaker 2: This is so funny because like, because of who I am,

2007
01:55:27,480 --> 01:55:30,000
Speaker 2: I was talking about this at the bar last night,

2008
01:55:30,320 --> 01:55:33,920
Speaker 2: just completely insunderable. And the one thing I couldn't put

2009
01:55:33,920 --> 01:55:36,280
Speaker 2: together is like what his exact motivation was besides like

2010
01:55:36,440 --> 01:55:38,120
Speaker 2: rooting out like political enemies.

2011
01:55:38,200 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 3: No one knows that he like.

2012
01:55:39,840 --> 01:55:42,880
Speaker 2: Labeled us like quote unquote anti communist, right, But let's

2013
01:55:42,920 --> 01:55:45,120
Speaker 2: like we were talking about, like how funny this all is,

2014
01:55:45,160 --> 01:55:48,080
Speaker 2: and like I still can't quite understand like why he

2015
01:55:48,320 --> 01:55:48,600
Speaker 2: did this.

2016
01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:52,400
Speaker 3: No one news like this this is Jenny Why, Like

2017
01:55:52,480 --> 01:55:54,480
Speaker 3: nobody has any idea why the fuck he thought this

2018
01:55:54,560 --> 01:55:57,240
Speaker 3: would work? Like the best thesis and we'll get to

2019
01:55:57,280 --> 01:55:59,760
Speaker 3: this a bit. The best thesis that I've seen is

2020
01:55:59,800 --> 01:56:03,040
Speaker 3: that he wanted to do this because he was pissed

2021
01:56:03,080 --> 01:56:04,920
Speaker 3: off with the fact that he hasn't literally been able

2022
01:56:04,960 --> 01:56:07,480
Speaker 3: to do anything his entire time in office because he's

2023
01:56:07,480 --> 01:56:11,000
Speaker 3: really mad at the National Assembly and also his own party, And.

2024
01:56:11,080 --> 01:56:13,840
Speaker 2: It's so funny to do that and then have that

2025
01:56:14,040 --> 01:56:18,600
Speaker 2: be underscored by them like be like, oh god, no,

2026
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:22,120
Speaker 2: actually you can't do a coup. No, no, thank you,

2027
01:56:23,560 --> 01:56:25,920
Speaker 2: nice try legally you cannot koubi.

2028
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:29,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like the I think the the semi serious part

2029
01:56:29,600 --> 01:56:33,000
Speaker 3: of this is that it doesn't make any sense to

2030
01:56:33,120 --> 01:56:36,400
Speaker 3: me how this could have been done if there also

2031
01:56:36,640 --> 01:56:39,480
Speaker 3: wasn't a faction of the Korean military that wanted this. Right,

2032
01:56:39,960 --> 01:56:43,600
Speaker 3: the Korean military is I mean, most of Korea's history

2033
01:56:43,680 --> 01:56:45,480
Speaker 3: still to this day, but I think I think it's

2034
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:47,120
Speaker 3: still a majority of the amount of time South Korea

2035
01:56:47,120 --> 01:56:50,000
Speaker 3: has been in existence has been under military dictatorships of

2036
01:56:50,040 --> 01:56:52,320
Speaker 3: various kinds. There's been a whole bunch of them. They

2037
01:56:52,400 --> 01:56:58,000
Speaker 3: were staggeringly hideous. They killed unbelievable numbers of people, they

2038
01:56:58,120 --> 01:57:00,560
Speaker 3: tortured unbelievab numbers of people. They were full back by

2039
01:57:00,600 --> 01:57:04,680
Speaker 3: the United States, and the military has also always had

2040
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:09,000
Speaker 3: this real chip on its shoulder about sort of liberal

2041
01:57:09,080 --> 01:57:13,040
Speaker 3: civilian politicians, and they have their version of like all

2042
01:57:13,080 --> 01:57:15,200
Speaker 3: of the conspiracy things that we have about how all

2043
01:57:15,240 --> 01:57:18,360
Speaker 3: democratic communists and how they're all like secretly et cetera,

2044
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:19,960
Speaker 3: et cetera. So for this is like they're all secretly

2045
01:57:20,000 --> 01:57:21,640
Speaker 3: North Korea supporters, et cetera, et cetera.

2046
01:57:21,880 --> 01:57:23,839
Speaker 2: Right, And this is something I was also seeing yesterday

2047
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:26,960
Speaker 2: people being like, oh wow, when did South Korea become

2048
01:57:27,080 --> 01:57:29,760
Speaker 2: North Korea? And they're like, oh my god, that's so

2049
01:57:30,320 --> 01:57:34,440
Speaker 2: that's like what a weird like orientalist racist comment. This

2050
01:57:34,600 --> 01:57:37,200
Speaker 2: is this is the most South Korean thing to ever happen.

2051
01:57:37,640 --> 01:57:41,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is like military coup and then military coup

2052
01:57:41,520 --> 01:57:44,760
Speaker 3: being overturned by protesters is the single most South Korean

2053
01:57:44,800 --> 01:57:47,680
Speaker 3: thing ever, right, Like, this is just how South Korean

2054
01:57:47,760 --> 01:57:48,360
Speaker 3: history has been.

2055
01:57:48,520 --> 01:57:51,120
Speaker 2: Having the fucking Assembly have to like break in in

2056
01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:52,840
Speaker 2: the middle of the night to vote.

2057
01:57:53,120 --> 01:57:56,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so funny. It's just it's Yeah, we're gonna

2058
01:57:56,760 --> 01:57:58,120
Speaker 3: get to the actual details of it a second, but

2059
01:57:58,160 --> 01:57:59,680
Speaker 3: I want to I want to go back to what

2060
01:57:59,880 --> 01:58:02,200
Speaker 3: was actually in this declaration of martial law. So the

2061
01:58:02,280 --> 01:58:04,640
Speaker 3: Korean constitution does let you declare martial law, but you're

2062
01:58:04,640 --> 01:58:05,960
Speaker 3: only supposed to do it if there's like a war

2063
01:58:06,080 --> 01:58:06,880
Speaker 3: going on, or like.

2064
01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:08,920
Speaker 2: If there's like an actual crisis happening.

2065
01:58:09,360 --> 01:58:12,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, instead of just like I'm mad I can't pass

2066
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:14,400
Speaker 3: my budget, which used to be what was happening here.

2067
01:58:14,800 --> 01:58:17,080
Speaker 2: You feel bad on a Monday night and you're like, oh,

2068
01:58:17,080 --> 01:58:18,480
Speaker 2: I guess i'llnucular martial law.

2069
01:58:19,240 --> 01:58:22,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay, I'm gonna read some I'm gonna read

2070
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:25,800
Speaker 3: a thing about what was going on here, about how unhinged.

2071
01:58:25,840 --> 01:58:29,680
Speaker 3: This was from Hawkura, which is a Korean media outlet.

2072
01:58:30,280 --> 01:58:36,240
Speaker 3: Quote Commander park Ensou announced quote martial law Command Proclamation

2073
01:58:36,440 --> 01:58:38,360
Speaker 3: number one, which, by the way, that's how you know

2074
01:58:38,440 --> 01:58:40,760
Speaker 3: you're dealing with people who have done this before. When

2075
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:43,960
Speaker 3: when they start doing their like Decree number one, Decree

2076
01:58:44,040 --> 01:58:46,560
Speaker 3: number two. Oh yeah, that's that is an that is

2077
01:58:46,600 --> 01:58:50,400
Speaker 3: an experience the side of like very very experienced military

2078
01:58:50,480 --> 01:58:54,440
Speaker 3: coup people announced martial Law Command Proclamation number one based

2079
01:58:54,440 --> 01:58:57,400
Speaker 3: on the contents of prohibiting all political activities of the

2080
01:58:57,480 --> 01:59:01,920
Speaker 3: National Assembly and local assemblies. The acclaimation also included contents

2081
01:59:01,960 --> 01:59:06,560
Speaker 3: that controlled the press and publications and prohibited citizens assemblies

2082
01:59:06,600 --> 01:59:09,640
Speaker 3: and demonstrations, as well as strikes and workstop wages by workers.

2083
01:59:10,200 --> 01:59:12,800
Speaker 3: It is also notable that it included the content quote

2084
01:59:12,880 --> 01:59:16,480
Speaker 3: all medical personnel, including residents who are on a strike

2085
01:59:16,560 --> 01:59:19,520
Speaker 3: who have left the medical field must return to their

2086
01:59:19,600 --> 01:59:22,680
Speaker 3: original work within forty eight hours and work faithfully, and

2087
01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:26,560
Speaker 3: violations will be published in accordance with the Martial Law Act. Now,

2088
01:59:26,960 --> 01:59:28,960
Speaker 3: it's important to note here if the thing you are

2089
01:59:29,000 --> 01:59:31,440
Speaker 3: trying to do is impose martial law on Korea according

2090
01:59:31,440 --> 01:59:33,840
Speaker 3: to the Constitution, and obviously if you're in the state

2091
01:59:33,840 --> 01:59:35,800
Speaker 3: where you're opposing martial law, the law has kind of

2092
01:59:35,800 --> 01:59:39,640
Speaker 3: got out the window. But you can't get rid of

2093
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:42,000
Speaker 3: the National Assembly. That is not a thing that marshial

2094
01:59:42,080 --> 01:59:43,920
Speaker 3: law allows you to do. With In fact, very explicitly

2095
01:59:43,960 --> 01:59:45,920
Speaker 3: in the Korean Constitution it says that like the National

2096
01:59:45,960 --> 01:59:48,800
Speaker 3: Assembly can't be gotten rid of by martial law. So

2097
01:59:49,720 --> 01:59:53,800
Speaker 3: this suggests to me that, yeah, this was something that

2098
01:59:53,920 --> 01:59:55,600
Speaker 3: was also being sort of spearheaded by parts of the

2099
01:59:55,680 --> 01:59:59,520
Speaker 3: Korean military. Because if you're not someone in the army

2100
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:03,120
Speaker 3: who has their own interest in doing a coup, and

2101
02:00:03,240 --> 02:00:07,640
Speaker 3: someone asks you to just like overthrow the parliament, which

2102
02:00:07,680 --> 02:00:09,880
Speaker 3: is a thing that they're not allowed to do, you

2103
02:00:10,080 --> 02:00:15,520
Speaker 3: just say no, which which also makes the failure of

2104
02:00:15,560 --> 02:00:17,920
Speaker 3: this and how unbelievably stupidly it was all put together

2105
02:00:18,000 --> 02:00:20,680
Speaker 3: even more baffling, right, because if we assume that parts

2106
02:00:20,680 --> 02:00:22,360
Speaker 3: of the clicks in the army had to have been

2107
02:00:22,400 --> 02:00:25,120
Speaker 3: involved with this, and like we know and this only

2108
02:00:25,280 --> 02:00:28,400
Speaker 3: FPR talks about Un is like fucked right. There's no

2109
02:00:28,480 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 3: way he's holding onto power. He's screwed and he's gonna

2110
02:00:30,960 --> 02:00:33,640
Speaker 3: be That will make him the second Korean president in

2111
02:00:34,000 --> 02:00:36,440
Speaker 3: seven years to be ran out by mass protests, and

2112
02:00:36,560 --> 02:00:39,240
Speaker 3: dream the last set of politicians who were getting rid

2113
02:00:39,240 --> 02:00:42,040
Speaker 3: out by mass protests. The army actually started drafting like

2114
02:00:42,160 --> 02:00:44,800
Speaker 3: procedures for how they were going to do a military

2115
02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:47,400
Speaker 3: takeover to like to knock out the protests, and they

2116
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:49,680
Speaker 3: never did it. But this is a this has been

2117
02:00:49,720 --> 02:00:51,600
Speaker 3: a thing that's been in the background for a long time,

2118
02:00:51,680 --> 02:00:55,080
Speaker 3: and the liberal the liberal establishment has been talking about

2119
02:00:55,120 --> 02:00:57,680
Speaker 3: how the right wants to bring back military rule for ages.

2120
02:00:57,760 --> 02:00:59,880
Speaker 3: This is a situation that in some ways is similar

2121
02:00:59,920 --> 02:01:03,480
Speaker 3: to Brazil, where the right has always been a sort

2122
02:01:03,560 --> 02:01:06,680
Speaker 3: of like, we like military rule kind of thing, but

2123
02:01:06,800 --> 02:01:10,160
Speaker 3: nobody actually seriously thought they would do it until they did.

2124
02:01:11,080 --> 02:01:14,240
Speaker 3: And you know, I'm gonna read one more thing before

2125
02:01:14,240 --> 02:01:15,920
Speaker 3: we go to ads here, which is he claimed that

2126
02:01:15,960 --> 02:01:19,360
Speaker 3: the National Assembly was quote the mastermind behind the downfall

2127
02:01:19,400 --> 02:01:21,440
Speaker 3: of the country, which, okay, that's pretty normal coup stuff,

2128
02:01:22,120 --> 02:01:27,720
Speaker 3: quote monsters and quote anti state forces seeking to overthrow

2129
02:01:27,800 --> 02:01:32,080
Speaker 3: the system. Now again he has just described the National Assembly,

2130
02:01:32,880 --> 02:01:37,600
Speaker 3: which is the Korean parliament as quote anti state forces

2131
02:01:37,920 --> 02:01:40,920
Speaker 3: seeking to overthrow the system, which now gives us the

2132
02:01:41,000 --> 02:01:43,080
Speaker 3: specter of the Anarco Parliament.

2133
02:01:46,880 --> 02:01:49,080
Speaker 2: I do wonder how much of this type of stuff

2134
02:01:49,240 --> 02:01:52,080
Speaker 2: is influenced, like by Trump's victory and like the enemy

2135
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:56,320
Speaker 2: within rhetoric. I'm not sure how much influence Trump has,

2136
02:01:57,360 --> 02:01:59,520
Speaker 2: I know, guess a degree of influence like pop culture,

2137
02:01:59,680 --> 02:02:03,360
Speaker 2: why something in Japan. I'm not sure of his influenced

2138
02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:05,680
Speaker 2: in South Korea, but like in terms of just like geopolitics,

2139
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:07,400
Speaker 2: like that's very similar to the type of like deep

2140
02:02:07,480 --> 02:02:12,400
Speaker 2: state enemy within rhetoric that like Trump used to success. Yeah,

2141
02:02:12,880 --> 02:02:16,080
Speaker 2: I not to like tie everything back to America.

2142
02:02:15,960 --> 02:02:20,360
Speaker 3: But like this like subversive shit is like stuff that

2143
02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:23,440
Speaker 3: you can trace back to like the original dictatorship. Right,

2144
02:02:23,520 --> 02:02:25,840
Speaker 3: Like this is a very very old, long running thing

2145
02:02:26,040 --> 02:02:28,920
Speaker 3: in Korean politics. Okay, we will get to the coup

2146
02:02:29,160 --> 02:02:31,000
Speaker 3: after I guess we get to a faction that didn't

2147
02:02:31,080 --> 02:02:33,960
Speaker 3: back the coup, which is the Korean capitalist class.

2148
02:02:34,240 --> 02:02:36,680
Speaker 2: So here are some ads salute to our comrades.

2149
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:50,040
Speaker 3: We are back now. I will say it is true

2150
02:02:50,280 --> 02:02:52,560
Speaker 3: that this whole thing folded so quickly that we never

2151
02:02:52,680 --> 02:02:55,720
Speaker 3: really got a chance to see how the Korean capitalist

2152
02:02:55,720 --> 02:02:57,480
Speaker 3: class would have reacted, other than the fact that all

2153
02:02:57,520 --> 02:02:59,560
Speaker 3: of the newspapers immediately were like, what the fuck are

2154
02:02:59,600 --> 02:03:04,640
Speaker 3: you doing? So it's also worth noting if you're trying

2155
02:03:04,680 --> 02:03:07,680
Speaker 3: to do a coup, right, there are four things that

2156
02:03:07,760 --> 02:03:09,680
Speaker 3: you need to do. You need to arrest your senior

2157
02:03:09,720 --> 02:03:13,000
Speaker 3: opposition political figures. You need to seize the radio stations

2158
02:03:13,120 --> 02:03:16,520
Speaker 3: that this includes you know today, like newspapers, TV stations.

2159
02:03:16,160 --> 02:03:19,120
Speaker 2: Like podcasts obviously, you know streamers.

2160
02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:18,880
Speaker 10: You know.

2161
02:03:19,000 --> 02:03:22,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we're a vital part of the media infrastructure

2162
02:03:22,120 --> 02:03:22,879
Speaker 3: that must be controlled.

2163
02:03:23,080 --> 02:03:25,080
Speaker 2: I show Speed or whatever his name is, he has

2164
02:03:25,120 --> 02:03:27,240
Speaker 2: to come under your control. You gotta get Aiden Ross

2165
02:03:27,360 --> 02:03:29,600
Speaker 2: locked into cage fast fast.

2166
02:03:29,720 --> 02:03:32,440
Speaker 3: I think Speed would have fucking gone just gone sicko

2167
02:03:32,560 --> 02:03:34,840
Speaker 3: mode on their special forces guys, given how just like

2168
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:38,480
Speaker 3: unbelievably their asses got kicked. You know, you have to

2169
02:03:38,520 --> 02:03:39,960
Speaker 3: seize the airports and you have to take the major

2170
02:03:40,000 --> 02:03:41,920
Speaker 3: government buildings. Right, So how many of these did this

2171
02:03:42,040 --> 02:03:45,240
Speaker 3: coup manage to do? They did like zero, right, They

2172
02:03:45,840 --> 02:03:48,879
Speaker 3: sort of kind of took most of the National Assembly.

2173
02:03:49,160 --> 02:03:51,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that last and what like an hour?

2174
02:03:52,520 --> 02:03:54,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Well we'll get to that in a second.

2175
02:03:54,880 --> 02:03:57,560
Speaker 3: So it seems like what we have reporting from the

2176
02:03:57,840 --> 02:04:02,839
Speaker 3: Democratic Party of Korea. They claim that the military attempted

2177
02:04:02,880 --> 02:04:05,800
Speaker 3: to arrest the head of the National Assembly, the head

2178
02:04:05,800 --> 02:04:08,840
Speaker 3: of the Democratic Party, and then also the head of

2179
02:04:08,920 --> 02:04:11,760
Speaker 3: the PPP, which is People's Power Party, which is Yun's

2180
02:04:11,840 --> 02:04:14,280
Speaker 3: own party. So he tried to have the head of

2181
02:04:14,320 --> 02:04:19,000
Speaker 3: his own party arrested by Korean special forces, and it

2182
02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:20,960
Speaker 3: didn't work because none of them were at their offices.

2183
02:04:21,920 --> 02:04:25,760
Speaker 2: It's so funny because they kept putting out they think

2184
02:04:25,840 --> 02:04:28,520
Speaker 2: arrest worts for like, but like the opposition party his

2185
02:04:28,680 --> 02:04:31,520
Speaker 2: own party, and the Assembly was like, oh.

2186
02:04:33,400 --> 02:04:37,120
Speaker 3: Tryser And you know, they did legitimately shut down some

2187
02:04:37,240 --> 02:04:38,800
Speaker 3: news outlets and that was it. You know, that was

2188
02:04:38,880 --> 02:04:39,560
Speaker 3: sort of genuine.

2189
02:04:39,680 --> 02:04:43,360
Speaker 2: I saw reporters like fucking like fighting with the military

2190
02:04:43,440 --> 02:04:44,160
Speaker 2: in the streets.

2191
02:04:44,320 --> 02:04:48,040
Speaker 3: It was sick. Yeah, well, this is why this is

2192
02:04:48,080 --> 02:04:50,840
Speaker 3: such a bad idea, right, Like, in the words of

2193
02:04:50,880 --> 02:04:54,600
Speaker 3: a football commentator whose name I'm forgetting right now, who

2194
02:04:54,640 --> 02:04:58,680
Speaker 3: had the greatest cast light at all of human history. Oh, no, disaster,

2195
02:04:59,280 --> 02:05:04,360
Speaker 3: what a idea like? I okay, just just from the

2196
02:05:04,480 --> 02:05:06,760
Speaker 3: logistics of this, right, pretty up on the list of

2197
02:05:06,840 --> 02:05:08,600
Speaker 3: countries you don't want to try to hold by by

2198
02:05:08,640 --> 02:05:10,920
Speaker 3: military force is South Korea. And there's a lot of

2199
02:05:10,960 --> 02:05:13,120
Speaker 3: reasons for this one. You know, you're dealing with like

2200
02:05:13,320 --> 02:05:14,960
Speaker 3: one of the largest GUESTI bases in the world. The

2201
02:05:15,040 --> 02:05:17,720
Speaker 3: other thing is like, this is an entire country of

2202
02:05:17,840 --> 02:05:22,919
Speaker 3: protesters and capitalist protesters, very scary. Well, but like everyone

2203
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:25,560
Speaker 3: fucking like fucking everyone in this country either like was

2204
02:05:25,640 --> 02:05:28,760
Speaker 3: a protester when they were a fucking kid or was

2205
02:05:28,840 --> 02:05:32,200
Speaker 3: one now to the extent we're like liberal members of

2206
02:05:32,400 --> 02:05:35,720
Speaker 3: parliament know how to build barricades. It's so cool. This

2207
02:05:35,880 --> 02:05:38,560
Speaker 3: actually matter enormously, like like fucking guys who are just

2208
02:05:38,640 --> 02:05:41,080
Speaker 3: like random aids where and there are videos of this

2209
02:05:41,280 --> 02:05:43,880
Speaker 3: of the of like just like random staffer guys like

2210
02:05:44,000 --> 02:05:46,920
Speaker 3: holding barricades from like against like paratrooper units and like

2211
02:05:47,240 --> 02:05:51,000
Speaker 3: like just random staffers like shooting fire extinguishers at army

2212
02:05:51,040 --> 02:05:53,840
Speaker 3: special forces units. Like can you fucking imagine that shit

2213
02:05:53,840 --> 02:05:54,000
Speaker 3: in the.

2214
02:05:54,040 --> 02:05:55,840
Speaker 2: US, Like it was very cool to see.

2215
02:05:56,280 --> 02:05:58,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, like this is this is why this is such

2216
02:05:58,080 --> 02:06:00,640
Speaker 3: a terrible idea because everyone has a whole bunch of

2217
02:06:00,720 --> 02:06:03,160
Speaker 3: institutional memory and experience of this, right, not just because

2218
02:06:03,520 --> 02:06:05,600
Speaker 3: you know the Democratic Party, right, which is which is

2219
02:06:05,640 --> 02:06:09,400
Speaker 3: the party that this was largely targeted at most of

2220
02:06:09,560 --> 02:06:11,720
Speaker 3: Like the elder statesmen of this party used to be

2221
02:06:11,840 --> 02:06:14,960
Speaker 3: Korean student protesters, Like they are all veterans of the

2222
02:06:15,040 --> 02:06:17,800
Speaker 3: campaigns that brought down the military government. And it's not

2223
02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:19,200
Speaker 3: just that there's like a there's a memory of it.

2224
02:06:19,280 --> 02:06:21,200
Speaker 3: It's like there are a protests outside the National Assembly

2225
02:06:21,240 --> 02:06:23,360
Speaker 3: like every fucking day, right, Like again, the last time

2226
02:06:23,400 --> 02:06:25,080
Speaker 3: they brought down a prime minister with maths protest was

2227
02:06:25,120 --> 02:06:27,760
Speaker 3: seven years ago. This is a whole country of people

2228
02:06:27,880 --> 02:06:31,080
Speaker 3: who know how to do this shit, and for some

2229
02:06:31,240 --> 02:06:34,400
Speaker 3: reason these idiots were like, we have no popular support whatsoever,

2230
02:06:34,680 --> 02:06:36,840
Speaker 3: and we're just gonna be able to like roll over

2231
02:06:37,000 --> 02:06:39,800
Speaker 3: this entire country in one night. So I think the

2232
02:06:39,880 --> 02:06:43,080
Speaker 3: plan was to hold the National Assembly and prevent the

2233
02:06:43,160 --> 02:06:45,680
Speaker 3: National Assembly from convening so that there was nobody who

2234
02:06:45,720 --> 02:06:48,360
Speaker 3: could override the martial law order.

2235
02:06:48,480 --> 02:06:50,560
Speaker 2: Yeah that sounds pretty basic, right, just to keep them

2236
02:06:50,560 --> 02:06:52,560
Speaker 2: out of the building so that they can't do anything.

2237
02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:52,840
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2238
02:06:52,960 --> 02:06:56,120
Speaker 3: So they failed, easy, right? Oh oh no, they failed? Yeah.

2239
02:06:56,200 --> 02:06:57,960
Speaker 3: So so the thing that the problem here again is

2240
02:06:58,000 --> 02:06:59,960
Speaker 3: that you're dealing with an entire country that has been

2241
02:07:00,120 --> 02:07:01,880
Speaker 3: doing this for fucking ages. Right, So they did this

2242
02:07:02,000 --> 02:07:04,320
Speaker 3: at like ten thirty at night, and immediately what happens

2243
02:07:04,360 --> 02:07:06,160
Speaker 3: is just like a bunch of drug guys in bars

2244
02:07:06,760 --> 02:07:09,280
Speaker 3: like show up to the National Assembly. Like the moment

2245
02:07:09,360 --> 02:07:11,520
Speaker 3: I knew it was doomed, was there. I was reading

2246
02:07:11,560 --> 02:07:13,080
Speaker 3: in the New York Times they had an interview with

2247
02:07:13,120 --> 02:07:14,880
Speaker 3: this guy who showed up. This is again the part

2248
02:07:14,920 --> 02:07:16,800
Speaker 3: I'm I'm talking about this being a country of protesters.

2249
02:07:17,160 --> 02:07:20,160
Speaker 3: Like these guys aren't like leftists like revolutionaries, right, this

2250
02:07:20,360 --> 02:07:21,680
Speaker 3: Like one of the guys they were talking to the

2251
02:07:22,080 --> 02:07:23,880
Speaker 3: New York Times, like their journals on the ground, pulls

2252
02:07:23,880 --> 02:07:26,320
Speaker 3: over a random guy and he's a sixty year old

2253
02:07:26,360 --> 02:07:29,800
Speaker 3: real estate agent. Right, this is a guy who should

2254
02:07:29,920 --> 02:07:33,520
Speaker 3: be like, this should be the base of a military coup. Right.

2255
02:07:33,720 --> 02:07:35,480
Speaker 3: This is a sixty year old man who doesn't real

2256
02:07:35,600 --> 02:07:38,640
Speaker 3: estate it and he heard about this and immediately his

2257
02:07:38,960 --> 02:07:41,480
Speaker 3: life was quote, this is the end. So he drove

2258
02:07:41,560 --> 02:07:44,160
Speaker 3: for a fucking hour at like one in the morning

2259
02:07:44,240 --> 02:07:45,960
Speaker 3: to show up to the National Assembly to go fight

2260
02:07:46,040 --> 02:07:47,920
Speaker 3: the army. There was just no way this is good

2261
02:07:47,920 --> 02:07:50,000
Speaker 3: to work. And so people, even though it's really late up,

2262
02:07:50,000 --> 02:07:52,640
Speaker 3: people just flood out. And suddenly there's all of these

2263
02:07:52,680 --> 02:07:55,000
Speaker 3: protesters in front of the National Assembly and they're doing

2264
02:07:55,080 --> 02:07:58,960
Speaker 3: shit like there's this unbelievable video of this soldier like

2265
02:07:59,080 --> 02:08:01,760
Speaker 3: tries to take a guy's phone, and this guy has

2266
02:08:01,800 --> 02:08:03,720
Speaker 3: some kind of e martial arts trading. It just grabs

2267
02:08:03,760 --> 02:08:05,560
Speaker 3: his arm and just spins him around.

2268
02:08:05,520 --> 02:08:06,280
Speaker 2: The coolest thing.

2269
02:08:07,280 --> 02:08:09,200
Speaker 3: And the guy just like I'm just like, well, fuck,

2270
02:08:09,200 --> 02:08:11,760
Speaker 3: guess I'm not dealing with this ship and there was such.

2271
02:08:11,680 --> 02:08:16,760
Speaker 2: Like a resignation. Yeah, in the movements of that military

2272
02:08:16,840 --> 02:08:21,480
Speaker 2: officer be like it's just like, well, shit, we could

2273
02:08:21,600 --> 02:08:26,080
Speaker 2: keep fighting, but why like yeah, what's the point? Like

2274
02:08:27,320 --> 02:08:30,200
Speaker 2: why am I out here? It's midnight? I should be

2275
02:08:30,360 --> 02:08:31,800
Speaker 2: in bed. What's going on?

2276
02:08:32,280 --> 02:08:33,880
Speaker 3: And like and part of this too also, and this

2277
02:08:34,000 --> 02:08:36,120
Speaker 3: is this is a smart decision by someone, is that

2278
02:08:36,200 --> 02:08:39,000
Speaker 3: these guys weren't issued with actual bullets. So when I

2279
02:08:39,040 --> 02:08:41,240
Speaker 3: say these guys and this is this is the you know,

2280
02:08:41,360 --> 02:08:43,960
Speaker 3: the actual loving part about this is that these were

2281
02:08:44,360 --> 02:08:49,720
Speaker 3: largely Korean paratrooper units, and Korean paratrooper units are some

2282
02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:54,840
Speaker 3: of the most unhinged like fascist troops in the entire world. Like,

2283
02:08:55,160 --> 02:08:57,520
Speaker 3: these are people who didn't just fight in the Korean War.

2284
02:08:57,600 --> 02:08:59,720
Speaker 3: A bunch of these guys fought in Vietnam. Like on

2285
02:08:59,800 --> 02:09:03,240
Speaker 3: the American side. They are notorious as the people who

2286
02:09:03,320 --> 02:09:05,520
Speaker 3: the military has always used to sort of put down protests.

2287
02:09:06,040 --> 02:09:08,240
Speaker 3: One of the most famous examples of this is the

2288
02:09:08,320 --> 02:09:11,440
Speaker 3: Guandra Uprising in nineteen eighty, which was a pro democracy

2289
02:09:11,520 --> 02:09:15,920
Speaker 3: uprising after one of the various stages of insane military

2290
02:09:16,000 --> 02:09:18,000
Speaker 3: coup stuff was going on in South Korea in nineteen

2291
02:09:18,040 --> 02:09:21,080
Speaker 3: eighty and there's a large democratic uprising from sort of

2292
02:09:21,080 --> 02:09:23,400
Speaker 3: students and workers. There's a bunch of strikes. They take

2293
02:09:23,440 --> 02:09:25,800
Speaker 3: this area and the paratroopers come to shoot them all.

2294
02:09:26,000 --> 02:09:28,560
Speaker 3: They killed probably several thousand people, and a lot of

2295
02:09:28,640 --> 02:09:30,960
Speaker 3: the paratrooper units that were deployed to take the National

2296
02:09:31,000 --> 02:09:33,600
Speaker 3: Assembly were literally the same units that were sent into

2297
02:09:33,640 --> 02:09:38,120
Speaker 3: crushes uprising in nineteen eighty, So this was in some

2298
02:09:38,320 --> 02:09:42,440
Speaker 3: ways very very scary, right because these are like, again,

2299
02:09:42,840 --> 02:09:45,040
Speaker 3: these are the units that were sent in to shoot

2300
02:09:45,080 --> 02:09:47,040
Speaker 3: a bunch of fucking civilians in the streets in order

2301
02:09:47,080 --> 02:09:52,920
Speaker 3: to keep military rule intact. However, this time these para

2302
02:09:53,040 --> 02:09:57,000
Speaker 3: units just got their shthanded to them. So it's sort

2303
02:09:57,040 --> 02:09:59,400
Speaker 3: of unclear exactly what was going on in the National Assembly.

2304
02:09:59,480 --> 02:10:01,560
Speaker 3: It seemed like some National semi members were still there,

2305
02:10:02,400 --> 02:10:05,560
Speaker 3: but somehow, and we don't part of how this happened,

2306
02:10:05,560 --> 02:10:07,800
Speaker 3: which is protesters were just there's a video of I

2307
02:10:07,840 --> 02:10:10,320
Speaker 3: think it was like the opposition leader. The protesters like

2308
02:10:10,720 --> 02:10:13,400
Speaker 3: like pushed him up over a fence so he could

2309
02:10:13,440 --> 02:10:17,280
Speaker 3: break into the National Assembly and get past the military barricades.

2310
02:10:18,760 --> 02:10:21,920
Speaker 3: Like like one hundred and ninety lawmakers somehow like got

2311
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:24,440
Speaker 3: into the National Assembly and barricaded themselves in.

2312
02:10:26,240 --> 02:10:29,680
Speaker 2: This also shows a level of like dedication. Yeah that

2313
02:10:29,840 --> 02:10:33,200
Speaker 2: I suspect none of none of our lovemakers would do. No,

2314
02:10:33,760 --> 02:10:36,879
Speaker 2: they're not gonna they're not gonna break into the capital

2315
02:10:36,920 --> 02:10:38,880
Speaker 2: when it's surrounded by military guard.

2316
02:10:39,560 --> 02:10:41,680
Speaker 3: You know, we had this with January sixth, right, and

2317
02:10:41,760 --> 02:10:44,120
Speaker 3: like what what what did our congress people do dream

2318
02:10:44,200 --> 02:10:45,880
Speaker 3: January sixth they all ran and hid.

2319
02:10:46,200 --> 02:10:48,520
Speaker 2: I mean these are slightly different circumstances.

2320
02:10:48,960 --> 02:10:51,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is true, but like but like you know, okay,

2321
02:10:51,240 --> 02:10:53,880
Speaker 3: so if if you look at there's been a lot

2322
02:10:53,920 --> 02:10:56,480
Speaker 3: of shit talking of the of the American people's willingness

2323
02:10:56,560 --> 02:10:59,640
Speaker 3: to protest and stuff in the light of like watching

2324
02:10:59,680 --> 02:11:02,480
Speaker 3: the Career, and people overturned this coup in like three hours.

2325
02:11:02,960 --> 02:11:05,840
Speaker 3: And I will point out that in twenty twenty, this

2326
02:11:06,000 --> 02:11:09,760
Speaker 3: was this was literally four years ago. Like we put

2327
02:11:09,840 --> 02:11:11,880
Speaker 3: the President of the United States in a bunker. People

2328
02:11:11,960 --> 02:11:14,000
Speaker 3: fought the Secret Service hand to hand outside the gates

2329
02:11:14,040 --> 02:11:16,320
Speaker 3: of the White House. Like the police in this country

2330
02:11:16,400 --> 02:11:18,960
Speaker 3: lost control of the centers of several major American cities.

2331
02:11:19,160 --> 02:11:23,520
Speaker 3: So like Americans will fight, right, but can you imagine

2332
02:11:24,040 --> 02:11:28,120
Speaker 3: like Nancy Pelosi or like like Chuck Schumer or whoever

2333
02:11:28,160 --> 02:11:30,400
Speaker 3: it was around like trying to set up, like setting

2334
02:11:30,480 --> 02:11:33,960
Speaker 3: up barricades to stop the army from like marching into

2335
02:11:34,080 --> 02:11:38,240
Speaker 3: Like no, it's unreal. And these were good barricades too.

2336
02:11:38,400 --> 02:11:40,520
Speaker 3: These were very well constructive barricades. These are barricades that

2337
02:11:40,680 --> 02:11:43,080
Speaker 3: like are better than a lot of barricades I've seen

2338
02:11:43,080 --> 02:11:45,680
Speaker 3: set up by protesters over the like in the US

2339
02:11:45,760 --> 02:11:48,480
Speaker 3: over the last few years. And the consequence of this

2340
02:11:48,680 --> 02:11:51,840
Speaker 3: was that the National Assembly just voted for the coup

2341
02:11:51,880 --> 02:11:54,840
Speaker 3: to be over, because they can just vote to say

2342
02:11:54,960 --> 02:11:58,920
Speaker 3: that the martial laws over. And then the military kind

2343
02:11:58,920 --> 02:12:01,240
Speaker 3: of was just like, well shit and just kind of left.

2344
02:12:01,360 --> 02:12:04,200
Speaker 2: I mean they waited in the wings for a little bit. Yeah,

2345
02:12:04,760 --> 02:12:07,280
Speaker 2: and we were all curious to see what the president

2346
02:12:07,440 --> 02:12:11,040
Speaker 2: was gonna do after this. Emily was like, uh, nice,

2347
02:12:11,080 --> 02:12:13,840
Speaker 2: tryser and I guess we will talk about that after

2348
02:12:14,440 --> 02:12:16,360
Speaker 2: another message from these ads.

2349
02:12:25,920 --> 02:12:28,520
Speaker 3: And we are so back. We are so back. It

2350
02:12:28,600 --> 02:12:31,520
Speaker 3: has never been more over for President UNI. That is true,

2351
02:12:31,600 --> 02:12:34,200
Speaker 3: it has never been more over. So part of the

2352
02:12:34,280 --> 02:12:37,680
Speaker 3: weird part about this is that you just like vanishes

2353
02:12:37,760 --> 02:12:40,720
Speaker 3: for most of this, Like we don't hear from him

2354
02:12:40,800 --> 02:12:43,800
Speaker 3: until like the morning when he announces that he's going

2355
02:12:43,880 --> 02:12:46,040
Speaker 3: to roll back the martial law thing, but he needs

2356
02:12:46,040 --> 02:12:47,960
Speaker 3: his cabinet there to do the vote, so he's gonna

2357
02:12:47,960 --> 02:12:50,840
Speaker 3: do it later. I don't know. But the troops have

2358
02:12:50,880 --> 02:12:53,560
Speaker 3: already all pulled out by this point and like they

2359
02:12:53,640 --> 02:12:56,360
Speaker 3: go back to their barracks after the National Assembly is

2360
02:12:56,400 --> 02:12:58,400
Speaker 3: like what the fuck. So there's been a lot of

2361
02:12:58,440 --> 02:13:01,240
Speaker 3: haymade about how one hundred and ninety members of the

2362
02:13:01,280 --> 02:13:03,400
Speaker 3: National Assembly showed up and every single one of them

2363
02:13:03,480 --> 02:13:06,640
Speaker 3: voted to end martial law and like that's cool. But

2364
02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:08,360
Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of people be like, oh, look

2365
02:13:08,400 --> 02:13:11,560
Speaker 3: at how democratic the PPP, which is the right wing

2366
02:13:11,640 --> 02:13:13,200
Speaker 3: party that UN's a part of, is from, like they

2367
02:13:13,320 --> 02:13:15,200
Speaker 3: voted to do it, but like, okay, yes it was.

2368
02:13:15,240 --> 02:13:17,360
Speaker 3: This was a unanimous vote. I need everyone to understand

2369
02:13:17,360 --> 02:13:19,360
Speaker 3: that there were three hundred members of the National Assembly

2370
02:13:19,440 --> 02:13:21,040
Speaker 3: and that means that means one hundred and ten of

2371
02:13:21,080 --> 02:13:23,400
Speaker 3: them didn't show up, and that of the people who

2372
02:13:23,440 --> 02:13:25,960
Speaker 3: showed up, there were only eighteen members. Yeah, of the

2373
02:13:26,000 --> 02:13:28,800
Speaker 3: PPP who showed up to this now, and part of that,

2374
02:13:29,000 --> 02:13:31,320
Speaker 3: like it is true, it is. It was a bit

2375
02:13:31,400 --> 02:13:33,840
Speaker 3: difficult to get through the fucking military occupation fit with

2376
02:13:33,880 --> 02:13:36,880
Speaker 3: paratroopers but everyone else you have managed to, so you know,

2377
02:13:37,360 --> 02:13:39,400
Speaker 3: and UN's own party also just hates him because again,

2378
02:13:39,440 --> 02:13:41,320
Speaker 3: like one of the scandals he's going down for is

2379
02:13:41,400 --> 02:13:44,680
Speaker 3: like fucking with their primaries and like getting a bunch

2380
02:13:44,720 --> 02:13:47,240
Speaker 3: of people who had safe seats, like losing their safe

2381
02:13:47,320 --> 02:13:49,680
Speaker 3: seats so he could put his guys in. And again

2382
02:13:49,720 --> 02:13:52,240
Speaker 3: he also tried to arrest the head of his own parties.

2383
02:13:52,280 --> 02:13:55,040
Speaker 3: So like, these people don't like him for very immediate

2384
02:13:55,080 --> 02:13:57,040
Speaker 3: person or reason is not because the PPP is somehow

2385
02:13:57,080 --> 02:13:59,560
Speaker 3: like a party more committed to democracy than the Republican

2386
02:13:59,600 --> 02:14:03,400
Speaker 3: Party is here like no, these people all suck, like,

2387
02:14:04,200 --> 02:14:08,240
Speaker 3: oh god, But this leaves us with the aftermath of this,

2388
02:14:09,080 --> 02:14:12,440
Speaker 3: and the first thing I want to kind of go

2389
02:14:12,720 --> 02:14:16,760
Speaker 3: over is what the fuck were they doing? Because again,

2390
02:14:16,880 --> 02:14:18,800
Speaker 3: if you look at the sequence of events here, right,

2391
02:14:19,440 --> 02:14:23,560
Speaker 3: there's this coup, right, the martial law goes into effect,

2392
02:14:23,960 --> 02:14:27,960
Speaker 3: the army backs it and tries to occupy the National Assembly,

2393
02:14:28,040 --> 02:14:31,040
Speaker 3: but then the National Assembly votes that the martial law

2394
02:14:31,160 --> 02:14:35,280
Speaker 3: is over, and then the army just leaves. Now what

2395
02:14:36,480 --> 02:14:38,040
Speaker 3: if you go back to remembering when I was talking

2396
02:14:38,040 --> 02:14:40,920
Speaker 3: about the beginning of this, right, seizing the National Assembly

2397
02:14:41,040 --> 02:14:42,640
Speaker 3: is not something you are allowed to do in a

2398
02:14:43,520 --> 02:14:46,880
Speaker 3: state of emergency or a martial law in position, right,

2399
02:14:46,960 --> 02:14:50,280
Speaker 3: that's something explicitly the army is banned from doing. They

2400
02:14:50,360 --> 02:14:54,040
Speaker 3: did it anyways, which means that like probably like a

2401
02:14:54,120 --> 02:14:56,520
Speaker 3: bunch of generals are also going to prison for this.

2402
02:14:57,440 --> 02:14:59,840
Speaker 3: But then they also immediately back down when it be

2403
02:15:00,040 --> 02:15:02,840
Speaker 3: came clear that you know, they were gonna there was

2404
02:15:02,920 --> 02:15:04,400
Speaker 3: going to be resistance, and that if they were going

2405
02:15:04,440 --> 02:15:05,800
Speaker 3: to try to stop this, they were either wouldn't have

2406
02:15:05,840 --> 02:15:07,600
Speaker 3: to beat the shit out of or just like actually

2407
02:15:07,680 --> 02:15:10,440
Speaker 3: shoot a bunch of lawmakers in the National Assembly. And

2408
02:15:10,680 --> 02:15:13,920
Speaker 3: I understand that that's a bad idea, and I get

2409
02:15:14,000 --> 02:15:15,880
Speaker 3: why these people didn't want to do that, just like

2410
02:15:15,960 --> 02:15:17,800
Speaker 3: from their own things politically, But if if you weren't

2411
02:15:17,800 --> 02:15:19,280
Speaker 3: willing to do that, why did you do this in

2412
02:15:19,320 --> 02:15:22,640
Speaker 3: the first place? Like, how did you think this was

2413
02:15:22,680 --> 02:15:25,040
Speaker 3: gonna go? The only thing I could think of was

2414
02:15:25,040 --> 02:15:27,200
Speaker 3: that they thought they could just should have. I thought

2415
02:15:27,240 --> 02:15:29,080
Speaker 3: it was ten thirty at night, we can just shock

2416
02:15:29,120 --> 02:15:31,840
Speaker 3: and awe everyone. Yeah, we'll just roll them over. But like,

2417
02:15:32,600 --> 02:15:34,280
Speaker 3: do you know what country you were in?

2418
02:15:34,680 --> 02:15:37,320
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's a massivest calculation. That's what makes

2419
02:15:37,400 --> 02:15:39,000
Speaker 2: this the worst Cup since Bolivia.

2420
02:15:39,360 --> 02:15:40,480
Speaker 3: I think it's worse in Bolivia.

2421
02:15:40,680 --> 02:15:44,480
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, because like it shows a complete like disconnection

2422
02:15:44,640 --> 02:15:46,280
Speaker 2: from understanding the country that you're in.

2423
02:15:46,400 --> 02:15:47,080
Speaker 3: What were they doing?

2424
02:15:47,560 --> 02:15:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the willingness of the people to like get

2425
02:15:50,280 --> 02:15:52,800
Speaker 2: mobilized at ten thirty, yeah, and the willingness of your

2426
02:15:52,800 --> 02:15:56,360
Speaker 2: own lawmakers, uh, to try to put like some level

2427
02:15:56,400 --> 02:15:59,160
Speaker 2: of resistance to this, even if it's not like physically

2428
02:15:59,240 --> 02:16:01,440
Speaker 2: fighting the art, which is something that I ended up doing,

2429
02:16:01,600 --> 02:16:07,440
Speaker 2: which they did. They fought the army, Like, ah, what

2430
02:16:07,560 --> 02:16:07,960
Speaker 2: a world.

2431
02:16:08,080 --> 02:16:11,560
Speaker 3: And also with Bolivia too, you know there's other Okay,

2432
02:16:11,560 --> 02:16:13,080
Speaker 3: so a with Olivia, there's a lot of debate over

2433
02:16:13,120 --> 02:16:15,760
Speaker 3: where that coup was real or not. I lean towards

2434
02:16:16,080 --> 02:16:18,200
Speaker 3: it was. There's a lot of people think he was staged.

2435
02:16:18,720 --> 02:16:21,200
Speaker 3: But also if it wasn't staged, the excuse they have

2436
02:16:21,440 --> 02:16:23,160
Speaker 3: is that the general who was leading it was about

2437
02:16:23,160 --> 02:16:24,880
Speaker 3: to get fired, so he just had to go, right.

2438
02:16:25,200 --> 02:16:27,120
Speaker 3: It's like, well, yeah, okay, it looked like a completely

2439
02:16:27,120 --> 02:16:29,160
Speaker 3: half cocked coup because it was they just they had

2440
02:16:29,200 --> 02:16:31,680
Speaker 3: to go before he got fired. This one, there was

2441
02:16:31,760 --> 02:16:33,760
Speaker 3: no time pressure. He could have just done this whenever

2442
02:16:34,240 --> 02:16:38,360
Speaker 3: with better planning, And I don't know it's it's all

2443
02:16:39,200 --> 02:16:43,400
Speaker 3: very very deeply weird in terms of what's happening next.

2444
02:16:43,879 --> 02:16:47,520
Speaker 3: I mean Yun was finished anyways, Like he again he

2445
02:16:47,520 --> 02:16:49,280
Speaker 3: had a twenty percent of proof of rating going into this.

2446
02:16:49,600 --> 02:16:53,080
Speaker 3: Coming out of this, there's immediately a Democratic party is

2447
02:16:53,200 --> 02:16:55,720
Speaker 3: trying to impeach him, Like a bunch of the PPP,

2448
02:16:56,000 --> 02:16:58,640
Speaker 3: who's again supposed to be his party, are also going

2449
02:16:58,680 --> 02:17:00,760
Speaker 3: along with it because they hate him. There was some

2450
02:17:01,000 --> 02:17:04,119
Speaker 3: very funny comments from PPP guys who were like his supporters,

2451
02:17:04,160 --> 02:17:05,920
Speaker 3: who were like, well he literally one of them said

2452
02:17:05,920 --> 02:17:08,080
Speaker 3: that he did this thing and as anyone thought about

2453
02:17:08,080 --> 02:17:10,080
Speaker 3: like the pressure of burden placed on him, maybe someone

2454
02:17:10,120 --> 02:17:11,320
Speaker 3: should have gotten to talk to him or did this

2455
02:17:11,360 --> 02:17:13,480
Speaker 3: because he was lonely, which is the most insane thing

2456
02:17:13,520 --> 02:17:15,640
Speaker 3: I've ever heard of my life. Like he just he

2457
02:17:15,760 --> 02:17:18,160
Speaker 3: just tried to argue that this guy you need a

2458
02:17:18,200 --> 02:17:21,840
Speaker 3: coup because he was lonely. What the fuck?

2459
02:17:21,920 --> 02:17:25,080
Speaker 2: It's the in cell evolution. It's finally happening in South Korea.

2460
02:17:26,400 --> 02:17:28,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like he is going to get impeached. The

2461
02:17:28,600 --> 02:17:30,320
Speaker 3: only way he's not going to get impeached is if

2462
02:17:30,400 --> 02:17:33,480
Speaker 3: the judiciary steps had to save him. And I can't

2463
02:17:33,560 --> 02:17:36,720
Speaker 3: imagine them trying it after again, he just tried to

2464
02:17:36,760 --> 02:17:40,600
Speaker 3: do a coup. He's going to prison, like probably his

2465
02:17:40,720 --> 02:17:43,119
Speaker 3: defense secretary is going to prison, Like the Defense Minister's

2466
02:17:43,120 --> 02:17:45,080
Speaker 3: going to prison. Probably a bunch of military guys are

2467
02:17:45,120 --> 02:17:48,640
Speaker 3: going to prison. Like this is it's so funny. They

2468
02:17:48,720 --> 02:17:54,160
Speaker 3: have just effectively annihilated their own political power for a generation.

2469
02:17:54,760 --> 02:17:56,680
Speaker 3: Like this faction of people who have been running the

2470
02:17:56,720 --> 02:18:00,360
Speaker 3: country is just gone. I mean they'll still be the PPP, right,

2471
02:18:00,480 --> 02:18:02,480
Speaker 3: this will be like conservatives, but like, they just have

2472
02:18:02,920 --> 02:18:06,760
Speaker 3: obliterated themselves in maybe the most spectacular fashion I have

2473
02:18:06,920 --> 02:18:09,760
Speaker 3: ever seen. And you know what happens when they are

2474
02:18:09,800 --> 02:18:14,560
Speaker 3: sort of unclear? Is it right now? We're recording this Wednesday, Yeah,

2475
02:18:14,640 --> 02:18:17,880
Speaker 3: Wednesday at like ten am. Yeah, so it's it's unclear

2476
02:18:17,920 --> 02:18:19,640
Speaker 3: exactly what's gonna happen in the time between when this

2477
02:18:19,959 --> 02:18:22,400
Speaker 3: when we record this and when this goes out, but

2478
02:18:22,879 --> 02:18:26,959
Speaker 3: uns finished. This is it's pretty yeah, and I'm I'm

2479
02:18:27,120 --> 02:18:30,520
Speaker 3: hoping that we see a serious attempt to actually like

2480
02:18:31,000 --> 02:18:32,960
Speaker 3: deal with the fact that the army is ran by

2481
02:18:32,959 --> 02:18:35,000
Speaker 3: a bunch of people who tried to do a coup.

2482
02:18:35,360 --> 02:18:40,080
Speaker 3: We won't and we might well no like it. Here's

2483
02:18:40,120 --> 02:18:43,880
Speaker 3: the thing in the US, absolutely not South Korea. Maybe

2484
02:18:44,240 --> 02:18:46,600
Speaker 3: there's a chance, there's like a there is a slight

2485
02:18:46,840 --> 02:18:49,720
Speaker 3: chance that people get purged from this, right and in

2486
02:18:49,920 --> 02:18:52,440
Speaker 3: a similar way to like Lula kind of purging some

2487
02:18:52,520 --> 02:18:53,000
Speaker 3: of the army.

2488
02:18:53,240 --> 02:18:56,400
Speaker 2: My South Korea does good things card is to already

2489
02:18:56,440 --> 02:18:57,640
Speaker 2: full up because of yesterday.

2490
02:18:57,760 --> 02:18:58,160
Speaker 3: That's true.

2491
02:18:58,240 --> 02:19:02,120
Speaker 2: I can't imagine they're gonna you more because it's South Korea.

2492
02:19:02,320 --> 02:19:04,280
Speaker 3: Well, I will also say, like one of the things

2493
02:19:04,320 --> 02:19:07,000
Speaker 3: that's happening is Korea is like major trade union federation

2494
02:19:07,400 --> 02:19:11,040
Speaker 3: is like doing a general strike until until the impeachment happens.

2495
02:19:11,840 --> 02:19:14,800
Speaker 3: So you know, there was a lot of pressure to

2496
02:19:14,840 --> 02:19:18,040
Speaker 3: clean house here, and like a lot of Korean liberalism

2497
02:19:18,160 --> 02:19:20,720
Speaker 3: is based on this, the sort of mythos of like

2498
02:19:21,000 --> 02:19:23,119
Speaker 3: of the student protesters, and like the protesters, you brought

2499
02:19:23,120 --> 02:19:25,840
Speaker 3: down the military dictatorship and trying to do a military

2500
02:19:25,920 --> 02:19:28,400
Speaker 3: coup and immediately failing is like the best possible thing

2501
02:19:28,440 --> 02:19:32,520
Speaker 3: you could have done for them. The consequences of this

2502
02:19:32,840 --> 02:19:34,760
Speaker 3: for you and are going to be extremely bad. I

2503
02:19:34,840 --> 02:19:37,720
Speaker 3: hope we get a better Korea out of this. I

2504
02:19:37,840 --> 02:19:40,040
Speaker 3: hope this sort of starts to stem the tide of

2505
02:19:40,280 --> 02:19:43,800
Speaker 3: the unhinged right wing surge that's been happening there for

2506
02:19:44,080 --> 02:19:44,760
Speaker 3: a while now.

2507
02:19:45,120 --> 02:19:47,240
Speaker 2: Be n I said this was like the tip of

2508
02:19:47,320 --> 02:19:52,600
Speaker 2: the bell curve. Yeah, in the global far right takeover. Yeah.

2509
02:19:52,760 --> 02:19:57,920
Speaker 3: I mean it's wow, it went bad. I may every

2510
02:19:57,959 --> 02:20:01,000
Speaker 3: single right wing attempt to do this go this because

2511
02:20:01,520 --> 02:20:02,400
Speaker 3: good lord, what.

2512
02:20:02,520 --> 02:20:03,600
Speaker 2: A heartwarming tale.

2513
02:20:03,760 --> 02:20:03,960
Speaker 8: Yep.

2514
02:20:04,240 --> 02:20:07,680
Speaker 2: Well that's that's been it for us today. You're at

2515
02:20:07,879 --> 02:20:11,320
Speaker 2: It could happen here. Tune in tomorrow for more exciting

2516
02:20:11,440 --> 02:20:14,600
Speaker 2: tales of political collapse.

2517
02:20:15,240 --> 02:20:17,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and quite quite possibly, quite possibly, this is going

2518
02:20:17,760 --> 02:20:20,240
Speaker 3: to happen to you too. And I want everyone to

2519
02:20:20,440 --> 02:20:22,760
Speaker 3: understand that in terms of military cues in the last

2520
02:20:22,800 --> 02:20:24,600
Speaker 3: six months, the protesters are two to zero in the

2521
02:20:24,720 --> 02:20:27,880
Speaker 3: army's zero and two. So if this happens to you soon,

2522
02:20:27,959 --> 02:20:50,840
Speaker 3: Whitchie very much might go get them. Welcome to You

2523
02:20:50,959 --> 02:20:54,160
Speaker 3: could happen here a podcast that is quite often about

2524
02:20:54,280 --> 02:20:57,920
Speaker 3: abortion in this country. I'm your host, Na Wong. Things

2525
02:20:57,959 --> 02:21:01,520
Speaker 3: have been very bad under the last administration and the

2526
02:21:01,560 --> 02:21:05,240
Speaker 3: administration before that, and the administration before that, and going

2527
02:21:05,280 --> 02:21:06,959
Speaker 3: back a long long time, things have been not good.

2528
02:21:06,959 --> 02:21:10,760
Speaker 3: They've been steadily getting worse, and there is a lot

2529
02:21:10,840 --> 02:21:12,720
Speaker 3: of fear, and I think a lot of is very

2530
02:21:12,920 --> 02:21:15,480
Speaker 3: justified that things are going to get even worse under Trump,

2531
02:21:16,240 --> 02:21:18,240
Speaker 3: and to talk about what we need to be afraid

2532
02:21:18,280 --> 02:21:22,120
Speaker 3: of and what we don't is Kate Bertash, who's the

2533
02:21:22,200 --> 02:21:25,680
Speaker 3: executive director of the Digital Defense Fund, and also Crystal,

2534
02:21:25,720 --> 02:21:29,119
Speaker 3: who's an abortion worker and also a volunteer for abortion hotlines.

2535
02:21:29,240 --> 02:21:30,800
Speaker 3: So both of you two, welcome to the show.

2536
02:21:31,360 --> 02:21:32,720
Speaker 11: Excellent, Thanks for having us on.

2537
02:21:33,160 --> 02:21:34,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, thanks for having me.

2538
02:21:35,040 --> 02:21:37,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you both, and

2539
02:21:37,280 --> 02:21:39,959
Speaker 3: I'm also excited to let Kate talk a little bit

2540
02:21:40,000 --> 02:21:41,680
Speaker 3: about what the Digital Defense Fund is.

2541
02:21:42,160 --> 02:21:45,840
Speaker 13: Excellent, thanks so much, longtime listener, first time caller.

2542
02:21:45,959 --> 02:21:46,480
Speaker 11: I suppose.

2543
02:21:46,920 --> 02:21:46,960
Speaker 2: So.

2544
02:21:47,080 --> 02:21:49,840
Speaker 13: The Digital Defense Fund is an organization that's been around

2545
02:21:49,920 --> 02:21:52,680
Speaker 13: for actually since the last election. It was started in

2546
02:21:52,760 --> 02:21:56,840
Speaker 13: response to Trump winning for the first time, and we're

2547
02:21:56,959 --> 02:22:00,280
Speaker 13: an organization that was put together to provide free digital

2548
02:22:00,320 --> 02:22:03,640
Speaker 13: security and technology resources for the front lines of what

2549
02:22:03,760 --> 02:22:06,520
Speaker 13: then was just the abortion access movement. We've since moved

2550
02:22:06,560 --> 02:22:11,520
Speaker 13: to support other variety of autonomy and liberation movements, but

2551
02:22:11,640 --> 02:22:15,640
Speaker 13: we provide free digital security evaluations trainings. We do a

2552
02:22:15,680 --> 02:22:17,879
Speaker 13: lot of project management work to help people set up

2553
02:22:18,280 --> 02:22:20,680
Speaker 13: what they'd like to change about their systems and security

2554
02:22:20,760 --> 02:22:22,600
Speaker 13: and we also help people pay for it, which is

2555
02:22:22,640 --> 02:22:24,960
Speaker 13: a really wonderful way to get to kind of see

2556
02:22:25,000 --> 02:22:27,240
Speaker 13: through our values. So I'm excited to be on here

2557
02:22:27,320 --> 02:22:30,680
Speaker 13: today to talk a little bit more about the implications

2558
02:22:30,720 --> 02:22:32,680
Speaker 13: for both organizations and individuals.

2559
02:22:33,280 --> 02:22:36,879
Speaker 3: The very first wave impact of this election has been

2560
02:22:37,120 --> 02:22:40,240
Speaker 3: a lot of sort of fear about what's coming, and

2561
02:22:40,320 --> 02:22:43,760
Speaker 3: I wanted to, I guess, ask you about what kinds

2562
02:22:43,760 --> 02:22:46,560
Speaker 3: of fears you've been seeing and maybe talk a little

2563
02:22:46,560 --> 02:22:50,360
Speaker 3: bit about which ones are more justified than others, because

2564
02:22:50,440 --> 02:22:52,840
Speaker 3: I think, I mean, there's been some concern that I

2565
02:22:52,920 --> 02:22:54,720
Speaker 3: think is justified as good, and there's also been some

2566
02:22:54,800 --> 02:22:58,360
Speaker 3: stuff that is kind of not rooted in what the

2567
02:22:58,440 --> 02:22:58,879
Speaker 3: threats are.

2568
02:22:59,720 --> 02:23:02,160
Speaker 13: Yeah, I think it's a great time anytime this happens

2569
02:23:02,200 --> 02:23:04,160
Speaker 13: to sort of get to ask and answer the question,

2570
02:23:04,240 --> 02:23:06,680
Speaker 13: which is like how do we know? And I think

2571
02:23:06,720 --> 02:23:09,120
Speaker 13: we're sort of lucky in this way that we know

2572
02:23:09,320 --> 02:23:11,800
Speaker 13: what are likely to be risks now to both people

2573
02:23:11,800 --> 02:23:14,160
Speaker 13: who are seeking abortions as well as people who help

2574
02:23:14,200 --> 02:23:16,640
Speaker 13: them get their folks as well, like Crystal, I know,

2575
02:23:16,680 --> 02:23:19,280
Speaker 13: will provide some additional color to this as well, But

2576
02:23:19,680 --> 02:23:22,359
Speaker 13: we know what kind of threats face people facing abortions

2577
02:23:22,400 --> 02:23:24,840
Speaker 13: in those who help them, because unfortunately a lot of

2578
02:23:24,879 --> 02:23:28,120
Speaker 13: these threats have been happening for the last several decades,

2579
02:23:28,200 --> 02:23:32,160
Speaker 13: people have been prosecuted for suspicion of ending their own pregnancies.

2580
02:23:32,440 --> 02:23:35,080
Speaker 13: We get a lot of really incredible and insightful data

2581
02:23:35,160 --> 02:23:38,560
Speaker 13: from organizations like IF one how who put out these

2582
02:23:39,000 --> 02:23:42,320
Speaker 13: reports that are called self care Criminalized, and they look

2583
02:23:42,400 --> 02:23:45,360
Speaker 13: backwards across all of the different cases that have happened

2584
02:23:45,360 --> 02:23:47,360
Speaker 13: to this space and try to come up with sort

2585
02:23:47,360 --> 02:23:48,959
Speaker 13: of like these key aspects. And one of the big

2586
02:23:49,000 --> 02:23:50,920
Speaker 13: things that we know that I'm sure we're going to

2587
02:23:50,959 --> 02:23:53,160
Speaker 13: talk about a lot through this episode is that the

2588
02:23:53,280 --> 02:23:55,320
Speaker 13: core way that people come to the attention of law

2589
02:23:55,400 --> 02:23:59,600
Speaker 13: enforcement for seeking to allegedly end their own pregnancies is

2590
02:23:59,720 --> 02:24:04,000
Speaker 13: through usually someone they know reporting them or someone responsible

2591
02:24:04,080 --> 02:24:06,280
Speaker 13: for their care. So that might be like healthcare worker,

2592
02:24:06,360 --> 02:24:09,800
Speaker 13: social worker, other representative agent of the state, and it

2593
02:24:09,840 --> 02:24:11,920
Speaker 13: can be really devastating to kind of hear and I

2594
02:24:12,000 --> 02:24:17,000
Speaker 13: think internalize that it's often people's family members like X

2595
02:24:17,360 --> 02:24:23,120
Speaker 13: or friends, neighbor who might turn somebody in expecting or

2596
02:24:23,360 --> 02:24:26,120
Speaker 13: misunderstanding that it is a crime to end your own pregnancy.

2597
02:24:26,640 --> 02:24:28,640
Speaker 13: I think one of the things that's really hard about

2598
02:24:28,680 --> 02:24:31,320
Speaker 13: this is that it involves some of the ways in which,

2599
02:24:31,480 --> 02:24:33,840
Speaker 13: like I guess it's what you would call very unfortunately

2600
02:24:33,920 --> 02:24:37,000
Speaker 13: typical policing practices, the way in which people's rights are

2601
02:24:37,040 --> 02:24:40,879
Speaker 13: violated when they are interrogated, when they are pressured into

2602
02:24:41,080 --> 02:24:44,920
Speaker 13: disclosing information. There's something called consent search that it unfortunately

2603
02:24:45,280 --> 02:24:47,480
Speaker 13: ends up being a very common feature of these kinds

2604
02:24:47,520 --> 02:24:49,560
Speaker 13: of cases, which is where you're put in a room

2605
02:24:49,840 --> 02:24:52,680
Speaker 13: and you're talking to representive agent and state or a

2606
02:24:52,720 --> 02:24:56,400
Speaker 13: police officer, and they sort of pressure you into agreeing

2607
02:24:56,560 --> 02:24:59,400
Speaker 13: to unlock and disclose often your phone and other device

2608
02:24:59,560 --> 02:25:03,400
Speaker 13: or to or whyse share information quote unquote voluntarily. And

2609
02:25:03,520 --> 02:25:05,480
Speaker 13: it's easy to see why people kind of get pressured

2610
02:25:05,520 --> 02:25:09,279
Speaker 13: into that. So that is something that tends to happen

2611
02:25:09,600 --> 02:25:13,320
Speaker 13: in many kinds of prosecutions of crimes or alleged crimes.

2612
02:25:13,840 --> 02:25:15,320
Speaker 13: And I think it's hard for a lot of people

2613
02:25:15,320 --> 02:25:19,240
Speaker 13: to imagine what that's like to be pulled over and

2614
02:25:19,680 --> 02:25:22,920
Speaker 13: searched in this way, or like they're often like people

2615
02:25:22,959 --> 02:25:26,320
Speaker 13: are not the targeted victims of something like stop and frisk,

2616
02:25:26,360 --> 02:25:28,040
Speaker 13: and so it's sort of hard to imagine in your

2617
02:25:28,120 --> 02:25:31,440
Speaker 13: mind the way in which somebody is information or their

2618
02:25:31,520 --> 02:25:34,680
Speaker 13: data or their case comes to the attention of law enforcement,

2619
02:25:34,959 --> 02:25:37,200
Speaker 13: and so we like tend to then imagine these other

2620
02:25:37,320 --> 02:25:41,000
Speaker 13: threats that feel perhaps closer to our daily experience, especially

2621
02:25:41,080 --> 02:25:44,320
Speaker 13: as like often people who are not racially targeted by police,

2622
02:25:44,680 --> 02:25:47,240
Speaker 13: who are not targeted by the family policing system, or

2623
02:25:47,320 --> 02:25:50,880
Speaker 13: have their pregnancies surveiled by the hospital systems. So people

2624
02:25:51,040 --> 02:25:53,440
Speaker 13: like to imagine then that. I think a big one

2625
02:25:53,480 --> 02:25:55,160
Speaker 13: that we all hear and I think we're all going

2626
02:25:55,280 --> 02:25:57,800
Speaker 13: to take a deep breath at the same time is

2627
02:25:58,040 --> 02:26:03,080
Speaker 13: period tracking apps was kind of remarkable, as Crystal.

2628
02:26:02,760 --> 02:26:05,280
Speaker 11: I'm sure you've heard this too, mm hmm yea.

2629
02:26:05,280 --> 02:26:06,960
Speaker 13: And I would love to lease space, Crystal for you

2630
02:26:07,000 --> 02:26:09,120
Speaker 13: to add any context to sort of like the threats

2631
02:26:09,160 --> 02:26:12,440
Speaker 13: that are that are present versus stuff that people imagine.

2632
02:26:12,760 --> 02:26:14,320
Speaker 13: I know we're going to spend a lot of time

2633
02:26:14,440 --> 02:26:15,959
Speaker 13: talking about our friend, the period driver.

2634
02:26:18,200 --> 02:26:20,520
Speaker 14: So at the time of recording, it's been like about

2635
02:26:20,879 --> 02:26:25,640
Speaker 14: almost a month since election day, and uh, you know,

2636
02:26:25,720 --> 02:26:27,959
Speaker 14: I answer the phone for a couple of different places,

2637
02:26:28,280 --> 02:26:32,480
Speaker 14: places for both work and volunteering, and there's been a

2638
02:26:32,600 --> 02:26:34,760
Speaker 14: lot of fear, you know, and not saying that like,

2639
02:26:34,959 --> 02:26:38,080
Speaker 14: abortion access has been without fear up until this point,

2640
02:26:38,600 --> 02:26:42,560
Speaker 14: but people are very afraid. And you know, I'm getting

2641
02:26:42,640 --> 02:26:45,760
Speaker 14: a lot of questions about people asking like can I

2642
02:26:46,200 --> 02:26:50,360
Speaker 14: be arrested for giving you my information, funding in my ID,

2643
02:26:51,280 --> 02:26:56,000
Speaker 14: giving you my real name? Ordering medication online? Can the

2644
02:26:56,160 --> 02:26:59,160
Speaker 14: United States get my records if I order from this

2645
02:26:59,600 --> 02:27:03,480
Speaker 14: provider overseas? Such as women on web and just yeah,

2646
02:27:03,520 --> 02:27:05,600
Speaker 14: people asking like can I be arrested?

2647
02:27:05,800 --> 02:27:08,280
Speaker 12: You know, can I do this? Will I be in trouble?

2648
02:27:08,959 --> 02:27:12,080
Speaker 14: And it is something that is going We're going to

2649
02:27:12,080 --> 02:27:14,800
Speaker 14: see an increase in criminalization and increase in abortion bans.

2650
02:27:15,000 --> 02:27:18,280
Speaker 14: It is a complicated answer, you know. The strait of

2651
02:27:18,360 --> 02:27:22,160
Speaker 14: it is that yet you can access abortion medication online,

2652
02:27:22,200 --> 02:27:24,760
Speaker 14: even if you're in a band state, even if you're

2653
02:27:24,760 --> 02:27:26,760
Speaker 14: in a state with a total abortion ban, you can

2654
02:27:26,959 --> 02:27:30,400
Speaker 14: order the medication from reliable resources online and have it

2655
02:27:30,440 --> 02:27:32,440
Speaker 14: mail to you. And people do this every day, hundreds,

2656
02:27:32,959 --> 02:27:35,360
Speaker 14: hundreds and hundreds of people do this every day without

2657
02:27:35,360 --> 02:27:40,680
Speaker 14: any issue. But there is also risk and it's kind

2658
02:27:40,720 --> 02:27:43,240
Speaker 14: of like what Kate was saying, where people tend to

2659
02:27:43,720 --> 02:27:45,959
Speaker 14: it seems like people don't know what the risk has

2660
02:27:46,080 --> 02:27:49,440
Speaker 14: been or what it looks like because like Kate was saying,

2661
02:27:49,480 --> 02:27:52,039
Speaker 14: there's like I been all these years of pregnancy criminalization,

2662
02:27:52,720 --> 02:27:54,800
Speaker 14: and we know what it looks like, and it tends

2663
02:27:54,840 --> 02:27:56,640
Speaker 14: to not be what people are worrying about right now,

2664
02:27:57,080 --> 02:27:59,160
Speaker 14: where people seem to be thinking like that the police

2665
02:27:59,160 --> 02:28:01,160
Speaker 14: are going to come up arrest them for putting in

2666
02:28:01,200 --> 02:28:04,160
Speaker 14: this order along with hundreds of other people in a

2667
02:28:04,200 --> 02:28:07,480
Speaker 14: given day, or that the police or somehow are going

2668
02:28:07,520 --> 02:28:11,480
Speaker 14: to get their period tracker information on their on their phone,

2669
02:28:11,959 --> 02:28:14,800
Speaker 14: and you know, like, of course, you know, practice dicial

2670
02:28:14,840 --> 02:28:16,640
Speaker 14: security in a way that makes you feel comfortable. Like

2671
02:28:16,680 --> 02:28:19,000
Speaker 14: if you don't want to use a period tracking app,

2672
02:28:19,240 --> 02:28:21,680
Speaker 14: you know there are safer ones to use, or you

2673
02:28:21,760 --> 02:28:23,800
Speaker 14: don't have to use it. But the fact of the

2674
02:28:23,879 --> 02:28:26,160
Speaker 14: matter is is that even if you are using pen

2675
02:28:26,240 --> 02:28:28,480
Speaker 14: and paper to record your period, if you have an

2676
02:28:28,480 --> 02:28:30,960
Speaker 14: abusive partner, they're going to be able to take pictures

2677
02:28:31,200 --> 02:28:34,800
Speaker 14: and collaborate with police. So the biggest threats are always,

2678
02:28:35,120 --> 02:28:37,039
Speaker 14: you know, as the data shown, like Kate was saying,

2679
02:28:37,600 --> 02:28:41,120
Speaker 14: going to be healthcare workers and the people that you

2680
02:28:41,240 --> 02:28:45,960
Speaker 14: know such as partners, family members, neighbors, friends, et cetera,

2681
02:28:46,480 --> 02:28:51,160
Speaker 14: who are going to get access to pictures, screenshots.

2682
02:28:51,320 --> 02:28:53,200
Speaker 12: And of course, the police and warrants.

2683
02:28:53,640 --> 02:28:56,000
Speaker 14: It's not going to look like the Handmad's sale, where

2684
02:28:56,040 --> 02:28:58,680
Speaker 14: somebody's like coming in and going and forcing you to

2685
02:28:58,800 --> 02:28:59,240
Speaker 14: do something and.

2686
02:28:59,280 --> 02:29:01,600
Speaker 12: Dress a certain way, et cetera. It's not going to

2687
02:29:01,640 --> 02:29:02,760
Speaker 12: be like anything new and fancy.

2688
02:29:02,800 --> 02:29:05,240
Speaker 14: It's going to be the same old police surveillance and

2689
02:29:05,280 --> 02:29:09,760
Speaker 14: criminalization that we've been seeing. But there are ways in

2690
02:29:09,800 --> 02:29:13,840
Speaker 14: which we can protect ourselves when we're doing that. When

2691
02:29:13,879 --> 02:29:15,840
Speaker 14: somebody calls and they ask me, can I get in

2692
02:29:15,879 --> 02:29:20,119
Speaker 14: trouble for ordering this medication online? And people can get

2693
02:29:20,160 --> 02:29:22,600
Speaker 14: really in trouble for anything in the United States. You know,

2694
02:29:22,680 --> 02:29:24,039
Speaker 14: if the police want to go after you for something,

2695
02:29:24,080 --> 02:29:26,040
Speaker 14: they're going to find something, So you just have to

2696
02:29:26,120 --> 02:29:27,960
Speaker 14: not leave evidence. Like so, yeah, you can order the

2697
02:29:28,000 --> 02:29:32,320
Speaker 14: medication online, but you can also use signal and we

2698
02:29:32,360 --> 02:29:34,920
Speaker 14: can know that Kate's probably going to go more into this,

2699
02:29:35,080 --> 02:29:37,560
Speaker 14: but you can make sure you have disappearing messages. You

2700
02:29:37,640 --> 02:29:40,880
Speaker 14: can use encrypted emails and search engines. You have to

2701
02:29:41,080 --> 02:29:43,320
Speaker 14: make sure you're thinking about who can see your data

2702
02:29:44,360 --> 02:29:47,400
Speaker 14: and you know where your data is being recorded. And

2703
02:29:47,600 --> 02:29:51,280
Speaker 14: that's really like if you want to protect yourself in

2704
02:29:51,400 --> 02:29:56,640
Speaker 14: terms of avoiding criminalization for abortion and pregnancy outcomes and

2705
02:29:57,240 --> 02:29:59,640
Speaker 14: you know, having a secure and safe abortion in the

2706
02:29:59,760 --> 02:30:01,960
Speaker 14: United it stays. Then you have to look at the

2707
02:30:02,000 --> 02:30:04,200
Speaker 14: basics like this, And I'm going to let Kate talk

2708
02:30:04,240 --> 02:30:05,520
Speaker 14: about that a little bit more because I know that

2709
02:30:05,600 --> 02:30:08,120
Speaker 14: you have all the good information that the Digital Defense

2710
02:30:08,120 --> 02:30:11,240
Speaker 14: Line has looked into about the apps and then how

2711
02:30:11,280 --> 02:30:14,040
Speaker 14: to delete data and what data to delete and how

2712
02:30:14,080 --> 02:30:14,640
Speaker 14: to think about this.

2713
02:30:15,440 --> 02:30:17,920
Speaker 13: Yeah, I think one of the really tough things right

2714
02:30:18,080 --> 02:30:21,640
Speaker 13: is that, like so like neither I or Crystal or attorneys,

2715
02:30:22,240 --> 02:30:24,240
Speaker 13: but often people are just getting a lot of advice

2716
02:30:24,280 --> 02:30:26,400
Speaker 13: from attorneys, and some of our work here is to

2717
02:30:26,480 --> 02:30:28,320
Speaker 13: make sure that like when you get sort of this

2718
02:30:28,520 --> 02:30:31,680
Speaker 13: idea of when something might be criminalized, or often like

2719
02:30:31,760 --> 02:30:34,560
Speaker 13: in this circumstance where we just like don't know actually

2720
02:30:34,600 --> 02:30:36,720
Speaker 13: how it's going to show up a lot, yet we're

2721
02:30:36,760 --> 02:30:39,520
Speaker 13: trying to think about sort of what are the ways

2722
02:30:39,560 --> 02:30:42,280
Speaker 13: we can have our digital devices and our technology sort

2723
02:30:42,320 --> 02:30:45,959
Speaker 13: of support us with these by default type of settings.

2724
02:30:46,280 --> 02:30:47,720
Speaker 13: One of the things that's really tough to I think

2725
02:30:47,840 --> 02:30:49,640
Speaker 13: understand until you've been through it is sort of like

2726
02:30:49,760 --> 02:30:52,360
Speaker 13: what it looks like when you go through any kind

2727
02:30:52,360 --> 02:30:57,280
Speaker 13: of investigation. I think the other hard kind of like

2728
02:30:57,440 --> 02:30:59,360
Speaker 13: context to get from the way we talk about it

2729
02:30:59,440 --> 02:31:02,000
Speaker 13: now is that a lot of how pregnancy is criminalized

2730
02:31:02,400 --> 02:31:05,200
Speaker 13: that sort of scaffolding that infrastructure was built during the

2731
02:31:05,280 --> 02:31:07,800
Speaker 13: drug war. So one of the most common kinds of

2732
02:31:08,120 --> 02:31:12,240
Speaker 13: pregnancy criminalization in America is drug testing people who are

2733
02:31:12,400 --> 02:31:15,320
Speaker 13: pregnant or come to give birth without their consent. And

2734
02:31:15,760 --> 02:31:18,560
Speaker 13: you know, so we basically consider like being an alleged

2735
02:31:18,640 --> 02:31:21,280
Speaker 13: drug user to be the sort of like primary way

2736
02:31:21,440 --> 02:31:24,080
Speaker 13: that our decision of like how much the digital evidence

2737
02:31:24,160 --> 02:31:26,360
Speaker 13: matters has like kind of come to take shape. So

2738
02:31:26,959 --> 02:31:30,680
Speaker 13: often when an investigation is happening, the police will look

2739
02:31:30,760 --> 02:31:33,160
Speaker 13: for where are all the sources of information I can

2740
02:31:33,200 --> 02:31:35,480
Speaker 13: find about this, because like the human body is like

2741
02:31:35,640 --> 02:31:40,000
Speaker 13: not super compliant with like digital forensic evidence.

2742
02:31:39,760 --> 02:31:40,920
Speaker 11: Every dadiary processes.

2743
02:31:41,000 --> 02:31:42,680
Speaker 13: I think it's like one of the most magical things

2744
02:31:42,720 --> 02:31:45,040
Speaker 13: about humans is that, you know, our bodies defy the

2745
02:31:45,080 --> 02:31:47,480
Speaker 13: letter of law in so many wonderful ways. But that

2746
02:31:47,600 --> 02:31:48,960
Speaker 13: means that they sort of have to then go to

2747
02:31:49,040 --> 02:31:51,640
Speaker 13: this like digital body of evidence to kind of tell

2748
02:31:51,760 --> 02:31:53,880
Speaker 13: the story or as like all the wonderful lawyers that

2749
02:31:53,959 --> 02:31:56,680
Speaker 13: advise us, like to say, to sort of like be

2750
02:31:56,760 --> 02:32:00,160
Speaker 13: able to draw the dots or the blndes between the

2751
02:32:00,240 --> 02:32:03,200
Speaker 13: dots and form this kind of like coherent set of

2752
02:32:03,320 --> 02:32:06,080
Speaker 13: facts of what happened between one moment to the next.

2753
02:32:06,520 --> 02:32:09,280
Speaker 13: So often when we're like imagining all of the data

2754
02:32:09,320 --> 02:32:12,560
Speaker 13: that lives in our phone, because unfortunately, in many cases,

2755
02:32:13,040 --> 02:32:15,960
Speaker 13: when you are perhaps coerced into consenting to the search

2756
02:32:16,000 --> 02:32:19,160
Speaker 13: of a device, they will often take your phone and

2757
02:32:19,240 --> 02:32:21,480
Speaker 13: then have you unlock it. It gets plugged into a

2758
02:32:21,640 --> 02:32:25,080
Speaker 13: device that makes clone of the entire drive, and then

2759
02:32:25,240 --> 02:32:27,560
Speaker 13: they can sort of with many different techniques kind of

2760
02:32:27,640 --> 02:32:30,840
Speaker 13: leisurely look through it for keywords to kind of tell

2761
02:32:30,920 --> 02:32:33,040
Speaker 13: where there might be evidence somewhere on your phone that you,

2762
02:32:33,200 --> 02:32:36,120
Speaker 13: for example, when on the internet, search for and purchased

2763
02:32:36,360 --> 02:32:40,640
Speaker 13: abortion medication. So yes, like period track and data might

2764
02:32:40,680 --> 02:32:43,400
Speaker 13: be one portion of that. But unfortunately, in all the

2765
02:32:43,480 --> 02:32:46,040
Speaker 13: cases that we've seen, or at least in most of

2766
02:32:46,040 --> 02:32:47,880
Speaker 13: the ones that we're most familiar with, all of that

2767
02:32:47,959 --> 02:32:51,480
Speaker 13: quote unquote plain text data. So where you've just written

2768
02:32:51,560 --> 02:32:55,200
Speaker 13: out in your own unencrypted words into a search bar

2769
02:32:55,520 --> 02:32:58,960
Speaker 13: in the search engine on your phone, or you've sent

2770
02:32:59,160 --> 02:33:02,480
Speaker 13: a text message to a very close contact with somebody

2771
02:33:02,760 --> 02:33:04,840
Speaker 13: telling them how you feel about your pregnancy. That you

2772
02:33:04,920 --> 02:33:09,000
Speaker 13: desire to end it, perhaps your plan to buypills, even

2773
02:33:09,040 --> 02:33:11,879
Speaker 13: the receipt that comes into your inbox. It's not necessary

2774
02:33:11,959 --> 02:33:13,879
Speaker 13: then to go to all these companies and go file

2775
02:33:14,040 --> 02:33:16,280
Speaker 13: a you know, for a warrant and get all that information,

2776
02:33:16,440 --> 02:33:18,760
Speaker 13: because now it's in just plain text, quote unquote on

2777
02:33:18,800 --> 02:33:23,840
Speaker 13: your phone, and that is far more information than the

2778
02:33:24,080 --> 02:33:27,119
Speaker 13: like abstract information that might come out of a period tracker.

2779
02:33:27,320 --> 02:33:30,640
Speaker 13: So unfortunately cops don't tend to use these in cases

2780
02:33:30,680 --> 02:33:33,360
Speaker 13: that we've seen because it's quite simply not necessary. That

2781
02:33:33,520 --> 02:33:36,320
Speaker 13: kind of like plain text admission of your state of

2782
02:33:36,480 --> 02:33:39,280
Speaker 13: mind or the statement of your intent has unfortunately been

2783
02:33:39,360 --> 02:33:41,480
Speaker 13: the sort of core evidence that comes up. And I

2784
02:33:41,560 --> 02:33:43,119
Speaker 13: think this has like a lot of like really quite

2785
02:33:43,160 --> 02:33:46,920
Speaker 13: sad implications. I know, in prior to prepare for this episode,

2786
02:33:47,240 --> 02:33:48,840
Speaker 13: we were discussing a couple of cases that I know

2787
02:33:48,879 --> 02:33:51,000
Speaker 13: folks might be more familiar with. A big one that

2788
02:33:51,080 --> 02:33:53,600
Speaker 13: came up is, you know, the case of a mother

2789
02:33:53,720 --> 02:33:57,040
Speaker 13: and daughter out of Nebraska who were having a discussion

2790
02:33:57,280 --> 02:34:00,440
Speaker 13: around allegedly helping the daughter to find and end for

2791
02:34:00,520 --> 02:34:04,200
Speaker 13: her pregnancy over Meta's Facebook messenger. And I think what

2792
02:34:04,280 --> 02:34:06,760
Speaker 13: I find really quite devastating about it for many reasons,

2793
02:34:07,040 --> 02:34:10,160
Speaker 13: is that these messages were actually ones that like I

2794
02:34:10,200 --> 02:34:12,040
Speaker 13: think any of us could hope to have with a

2795
02:34:12,160 --> 02:34:15,200
Speaker 13: very supportive parent or other person in our life. Is like,

2796
02:34:15,800 --> 02:34:19,320
Speaker 13: why we have, you know, these conversations so that we

2797
02:34:19,400 --> 02:34:22,400
Speaker 13: can feel connected and supported through such a complex and

2798
02:34:22,520 --> 02:34:25,240
Speaker 13: affecting process. It then becomes very sad to me that

2799
02:34:25,280 --> 02:34:27,200
Speaker 13: it becomes a criminal matter just because it was in

2800
02:34:27,240 --> 02:34:30,560
Speaker 13: a place that that conversation, you know, Meta did not

2801
02:34:30,680 --> 02:34:33,440
Speaker 13: have this family's back in terms of encrypting those messages

2802
02:34:33,600 --> 02:34:36,320
Speaker 13: or ensuring that they were free to speak of what

2803
02:34:36,400 --> 02:34:38,720
Speaker 13: they wish when they wish by default. So I think

2804
02:34:38,760 --> 02:34:41,240
Speaker 13: like when we start to give out advice, it's been

2805
02:34:41,280 --> 02:34:43,160
Speaker 13: important for us at Digital Defense Fund to kind of

2806
02:34:43,240 --> 02:34:46,280
Speaker 13: work backwards. I know it's been an existential crisis I

2807
02:34:46,360 --> 02:34:49,600
Speaker 13: think for everybody in the digital security space to know

2808
02:34:49,760 --> 02:34:52,120
Speaker 13: that like the list of advice I could give you

2809
02:34:52,760 --> 02:34:55,360
Speaker 13: on how to protect yourself when going through these transactions,

2810
02:34:55,480 --> 02:34:58,160
Speaker 13: or when seeking support, or like just having a normal

2811
02:34:58,680 --> 02:35:00,760
Speaker 13: you know, questions and going on the Internet being able

2812
02:35:00,840 --> 02:35:03,040
Speaker 13: to google them and get them answered. That we have

2813
02:35:03,120 --> 02:35:05,200
Speaker 13: to kind of like start from the basics, because like

2814
02:35:05,360 --> 02:35:09,320
Speaker 13: you have the right to find information from reliable resources.

2815
02:35:09,320 --> 02:35:11,600
Speaker 13: You have the right to buy pills from a reliable source.

2816
02:35:11,879 --> 02:35:14,440
Speaker 13: You have the right to like seek that kind of

2817
02:35:14,480 --> 02:35:16,720
Speaker 13: connection and support from people in your life. And so

2818
02:35:17,160 --> 02:35:19,400
Speaker 13: we're trying to cut down on like all the infinite

2819
02:35:19,400 --> 02:35:22,160
Speaker 13: amount of advice that we could give and try to

2820
02:35:22,240 --> 02:35:24,440
Speaker 13: like narrow it to like what is actionable, what has

2821
02:35:24,480 --> 02:35:27,280
Speaker 13: the greatest impact potentially in the cases we've seen.

2822
02:35:27,920 --> 02:35:29,440
Speaker 11: And I know we're going to dig into it, but

2823
02:35:29,480 --> 02:35:30,039
Speaker 11: I would love to.

2824
02:35:30,760 --> 02:35:34,240
Speaker 13: Leave room to tack a little bit more about that whenever,

2825
02:35:34,280 --> 02:35:35,959
Speaker 13: it's a good time in this conversation to go through

2826
02:35:36,000 --> 02:35:37,520
Speaker 13: our top three action items.

2827
02:35:37,879 --> 02:35:42,400
Speaker 3: So before we get to that, unfortunately we are under capitalism,

2828
02:35:42,480 --> 02:35:46,439
Speaker 3: which means we have to do these ads. Moving back shortly.

2829
02:35:56,120 --> 02:35:59,840
Speaker 12: And we are back another lawsuit. This is a little different.

2830
02:36:00,000 --> 02:36:00,840
Speaker 12: It's not a criminal charge.

2831
02:36:00,840 --> 02:36:02,760
Speaker 14: It was a lawsuit in Texas, and I want to

2832
02:36:02,800 --> 02:36:05,360
Speaker 14: bring up just as an example of like, how are

2833
02:36:05,840 --> 02:36:08,160
Speaker 14: you know our data can betray us.

2834
02:36:08,120 --> 02:36:08,720
Speaker 12: In these moments?

2835
02:36:09,600 --> 02:36:12,480
Speaker 14: Is there was and this was a really silly lawsuit

2836
02:36:12,760 --> 02:36:15,480
Speaker 14: has been dismissed, But there was a Texas man who

2837
02:36:15,520 --> 02:36:19,280
Speaker 14: filed a wrongful death lawsuit accusing three women of helping

2838
02:36:19,360 --> 02:36:21,000
Speaker 14: his exoife obtained abortion pills.

2839
02:36:21,600 --> 02:36:23,800
Speaker 12: I believe. I think it was dismissed last year, or.

2840
02:36:23,800 --> 02:36:26,640
Speaker 14: Maybe it was earlier this year. It wasn't even under

2841
02:36:26,879 --> 02:36:28,959
Speaker 14: the aid and event in law in Texas. It was actually,

2842
02:36:29,320 --> 02:36:31,960
Speaker 14: you know, they say, sought a different avenue. There actually

2843
02:36:32,040 --> 02:36:36,480
Speaker 14: hasn't been a successful lawsuit against an abortion seeker under

2844
02:36:36,720 --> 02:36:39,200
Speaker 14: Aida bet law or any other law in Texas in

2845
02:36:39,240 --> 02:36:41,200
Speaker 14: the last two years, which I think is just something

2846
02:36:41,240 --> 02:36:43,560
Speaker 14: worth bringing up, is that, you know, we actually haven't

2847
02:36:43,760 --> 02:36:45,760
Speaker 14: seen that happen yet other than this case.

2848
02:36:46,080 --> 02:36:46,959
Speaker 12: But what happened in this.

2849
02:36:47,080 --> 02:36:51,039
Speaker 14: Case is this person was planning on terminating their pregnancy.

2850
02:36:51,200 --> 02:36:53,280
Speaker 14: They were talking to some friends who were helping them out,

2851
02:36:53,920 --> 02:36:58,080
Speaker 14: and their iPhone was synced up to their iPad. So

2852
02:36:58,520 --> 02:37:01,000
Speaker 14: if anyone's familiar with that, you have your your I

2853
02:37:01,160 --> 02:37:04,680
Speaker 14: messages appear on both devices. The I messages that are

2854
02:37:04,720 --> 02:37:06,200
Speaker 14: coming to your phone are also going to be going

2855
02:37:06,240 --> 02:37:10,760
Speaker 14: to your iPad. And her ex husband took pictures of

2856
02:37:11,160 --> 02:37:13,600
Speaker 14: the I messages coming through on her iPad, and that

2857
02:37:13,840 --> 02:37:16,640
Speaker 14: was what was used. Even though the lawsuit was dismissed

2858
02:37:17,320 --> 02:37:20,959
Speaker 14: because it was a very silly lawsuit, total waste of time.

2859
02:37:21,440 --> 02:37:25,000
Speaker 14: But that is the kind of thing that we really

2860
02:37:25,200 --> 02:37:27,400
Speaker 14: you really need to be asking yourself, is you know,

2861
02:37:28,000 --> 02:37:29,360
Speaker 14: where are my messages going?

2862
02:37:29,600 --> 02:37:31,800
Speaker 12: Who is seeing my messages, who is seeing my emails?

2863
02:37:31,840 --> 02:37:32,640
Speaker 12: What is it connected to?

2864
02:37:33,440 --> 02:37:33,600
Speaker 8: Yeah?

2865
02:37:33,640 --> 02:37:35,920
Speaker 12: Because yeah, because it can just look like that too.

2866
02:37:36,240 --> 02:37:37,840
Speaker 11: I would say that's exactly right.

2867
02:37:38,040 --> 02:37:40,800
Speaker 13: Is I think I had a good friend who works

2868
02:37:40,840 --> 02:37:43,560
Speaker 13: in another area of security who and this is like

2869
02:37:43,840 --> 02:37:45,800
Speaker 13: how we learn these things, right, is that folks who

2870
02:37:45,840 --> 02:37:47,880
Speaker 13: work in the parts of security that deal with, for example,

2871
02:37:48,240 --> 02:37:51,080
Speaker 13: intimate partner violence or the sort of quote unquote in

2872
02:37:51,160 --> 02:37:55,320
Speaker 13: household surveillance threat model I think is vastly underestimated. I

2873
02:37:55,400 --> 02:37:57,600
Speaker 13: can't recall the figures at the moment, but one of

2874
02:37:57,680 --> 02:38:00,320
Speaker 13: those more recent reports from if one how actually had

2875
02:38:00,400 --> 02:38:04,720
Speaker 13: detailed just how frequently actually that sort of like how

2876
02:38:04,800 --> 02:38:07,360
Speaker 13: it is also this like intimate partner violence situation that

2877
02:38:07,480 --> 02:38:11,560
Speaker 13: comes up also in a regnancy or abortion criminalization case.

2878
02:38:12,080 --> 02:38:13,920
Speaker 13: And so you know, this person challenged me to think

2879
02:38:13,959 --> 02:38:16,800
Speaker 13: about the exact threat model of the unlocked iPad on

2880
02:38:16,879 --> 02:38:19,600
Speaker 13: the on the family coffee table and thinking about like

2881
02:38:19,720 --> 02:38:23,040
Speaker 13: when we share information and we share devices kind of

2882
02:38:23,080 --> 02:38:25,400
Speaker 13: like where does it go? So like, actually, our first

2883
02:38:25,440 --> 02:38:28,120
Speaker 13: piece of recommendation that we often give is is it

2884
02:38:28,160 --> 02:38:30,959
Speaker 13: can sound deceptively simple and it doesn't sound technical at all,

2885
02:38:31,600 --> 02:38:34,400
Speaker 13: but it is to think about like who you are

2886
02:38:34,480 --> 02:38:37,560
Speaker 13: telling about your experience and about like you know, your

2887
02:38:37,600 --> 02:38:41,120
Speaker 13: abortion or wanting to have an abortion, and then understanding

2888
02:38:41,120 --> 02:38:43,600
Speaker 13: whether you've like been clear about your boundaries, like do

2889
02:38:43,720 --> 02:38:45,959
Speaker 13: you expect them to not share or tell with others?

2890
02:38:46,200 --> 02:38:48,360
Speaker 13: Like can you delete any messages with them? Would they

2891
02:38:48,400 --> 02:38:50,320
Speaker 13: ask if you ask them after the fact to delete

2892
02:38:50,360 --> 02:38:52,840
Speaker 13: things for you, would they absolutely do that? I think

2893
02:38:52,840 --> 02:38:55,000
Speaker 13: you've can be really challenging to kind of like zoom

2894
02:38:55,040 --> 02:38:58,800
Speaker 13: out and realize, like you know, it's often not as

2895
02:38:58,879 --> 02:39:01,080
Speaker 13: easy as it sounds to like kind of do this

2896
02:39:01,200 --> 02:39:03,680
Speaker 13: mental inventory and think about all the different ways that

2897
02:39:03,879 --> 02:39:06,240
Speaker 13: like me and my best friend talk, or you know,

2898
02:39:06,640 --> 02:39:09,360
Speaker 13: when I mentioned things to people offhand, we don't have

2899
02:39:09,480 --> 02:39:12,560
Speaker 13: a really good I think like social practice of you know,

2900
02:39:12,720 --> 02:39:16,039
Speaker 13: understanding the implication of like sharing other people's information without

2901
02:39:16,040 --> 02:39:20,320
Speaker 13: their permission, and so, like you know, it's very impactful

2902
02:39:20,360 --> 02:39:22,920
Speaker 13: but also very difficult, and it can't be very individual

2903
02:39:23,040 --> 02:39:24,600
Speaker 13: for all of us to kind of think more carefully

2904
02:39:24,720 --> 02:39:27,240
Speaker 13: about with whom we share things and how we ask

2905
02:39:27,320 --> 02:39:29,879
Speaker 13: people to keep our confidence, and how we can even

2906
02:39:29,959 --> 02:39:32,360
Speaker 13: offer each other the ability to like delete things that

2907
02:39:32,400 --> 02:39:35,240
Speaker 13: we don't want to exist indefinitely. I think one of

2908
02:39:35,280 --> 02:39:39,000
Speaker 13: the biggest sort of existential struggles that crosses over to

2909
02:39:39,040 --> 02:39:42,640
Speaker 13: where people get support for abortions from like organizations, also

2910
02:39:42,720 --> 02:39:45,280
Speaker 13: includes the fact that I know has been discussed many

2911
02:39:45,320 --> 02:39:47,960
Speaker 13: times on this podcast, that there is a difference in

2912
02:39:48,040 --> 02:39:50,520
Speaker 13: how much information is kept depending on where you were

2913
02:39:50,560 --> 02:39:54,080
Speaker 13: having a conversation on your phone. So an SMS text message,

2914
02:39:54,200 --> 02:39:57,440
Speaker 13: those little green bubbles that go back and forth between

2915
02:39:57,480 --> 02:40:00,640
Speaker 13: you and possibly other people who are on iOS like

2916
02:40:01,040 --> 02:40:04,920
Speaker 13: iOS and Android combination conversation you're friends with and an

2917
02:40:05,040 --> 02:40:07,400
Speaker 13: Android might have a green bubble come back to you.

2918
02:40:07,720 --> 02:40:10,080
Speaker 13: That basically means that that is going as an SMS

2919
02:40:10,200 --> 02:40:13,200
Speaker 13: text message to your phone carrier, and that means that

2920
02:40:13,240 --> 02:40:16,360
Speaker 13: it's going quote unquote in plain text, totally unencrypted to

2921
02:40:16,480 --> 02:40:21,320
Speaker 13: the cell tower, and it's being held by that phone carrier, unencrypted,

2922
02:40:21,879 --> 02:40:25,000
Speaker 13: readable as it is as you typed it in as

2923
02:40:25,080 --> 02:40:28,120
Speaker 13: far as we know forever. It can vary depending on

2924
02:40:28,440 --> 02:40:31,279
Speaker 13: whether or not you move to a different carrier. But unfortunately,

2925
02:40:31,320 --> 02:40:33,840
Speaker 13: phone carriers have a very long history also of disclosing

2926
02:40:33,879 --> 02:40:37,280
Speaker 13: that information readily on request, either from law enforcement or

2927
02:40:37,320 --> 02:40:40,840
Speaker 13: from other agencies, and I think that is troubling. I think,

2928
02:40:40,959 --> 02:40:43,840
Speaker 13: like no person would really like to know that, regardless

2929
02:40:43,840 --> 02:40:45,680
Speaker 13: of what that you intend to do with your text messages.

2930
02:40:45,800 --> 02:40:48,040
Speaker 13: But it's why we often then encourage people as like

2931
02:40:48,120 --> 02:40:51,680
Speaker 13: sort of a second step to try and use encrypted

2932
02:40:51,760 --> 02:40:56,000
Speaker 13: chat with Signal or another trusted and encrypted chat. Again

2933
02:40:56,200 --> 02:41:00,120
Speaker 13: sounds overly simplistic, but I think having those disappearing messages on,

2934
02:41:00,600 --> 02:41:03,400
Speaker 13: especially between people who are seeking support from one another,

2935
02:41:03,560 --> 02:41:06,320
Speaker 13: whether it's somebody in your life or another organization that's

2936
02:41:06,360 --> 02:41:08,760
Speaker 13: helping you to get your abortion, there really is something

2937
02:41:08,800 --> 02:41:12,119
Speaker 13: to that ability to again speak freely, to be best friends,

2938
02:41:12,240 --> 02:41:15,280
Speaker 13: helping your friends you know, allegedly get abortion medication, or

2939
02:41:15,360 --> 02:41:18,600
Speaker 13: to being a mom you know, there to support your child.

2940
02:41:18,720 --> 02:41:21,400
Speaker 13: No matter what, I think, it's just something really wonderful

2941
02:41:21,440 --> 02:41:24,800
Speaker 13: about how using disappearing messages with Signal like reflects the

2942
02:41:24,920 --> 02:41:27,080
Speaker 13: values that we actually have already with each other and

2943
02:41:27,280 --> 02:41:30,920
Speaker 13: just like make sure that technology companies or corporations or

2944
02:41:31,080 --> 02:41:32,920
Speaker 13: law enforcement don't get to get in the way of

2945
02:41:33,200 --> 02:41:34,240
Speaker 13: how we want to live our lives.

2946
02:41:34,760 --> 02:41:39,080
Speaker 14: So yeah, yeah, so really supporting somebody through an abortion

2947
02:41:39,879 --> 02:41:41,160
Speaker 14: includes digital security.

2948
02:41:41,400 --> 02:41:44,240
Speaker 12: Yes, same with providers to people who are answering the phones.

2949
02:41:44,520 --> 02:41:46,600
Speaker 12: Digital security is one of the number one priorities.

2950
02:41:46,760 --> 02:41:49,520
Speaker 14: And yeah, if you're supporting somebody with an abortion, that

2951
02:41:49,560 --> 02:41:51,200
Speaker 14: should be your number one priority as well.

2952
02:41:51,520 --> 02:41:51,680
Speaker 8: Well.

2953
02:41:51,720 --> 02:41:53,800
Speaker 13: And like I bet people like you know when when

2954
02:41:53,840 --> 02:41:56,840
Speaker 13: you talk to people like you're often I imagine one

2955
02:41:56,879 --> 02:41:59,520
Speaker 13: of the first people that they're expressing themselves to it

2956
02:41:59,520 --> 02:42:01,520
Speaker 13: all about what they're going through. And you know, I

2957
02:42:01,680 --> 02:42:03,400
Speaker 13: know that that the point is to help people get

2958
02:42:03,440 --> 02:42:05,360
Speaker 13: to their procedure, but often they're bringing a lot of

2959
02:42:05,440 --> 02:42:07,879
Speaker 13: other things with them and they're not sure.

2960
02:42:07,760 --> 02:42:08,520
Speaker 11: If they're important.

2961
02:42:08,600 --> 02:42:10,960
Speaker 13: I remember, like you mentioning this, but just the amount

2962
02:42:10,959 --> 02:42:13,280
Speaker 13: of weight that is for y'all as a sport too.

2963
02:42:13,920 --> 02:42:16,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, and like people are scared for good reason.

2964
02:42:16,959 --> 02:42:19,120
Speaker 14: You know, we do live in a fascist country and

2965
02:42:19,560 --> 02:42:22,960
Speaker 14: a police surveillance state, so you know, their fears are founded,

2966
02:42:23,560 --> 02:42:27,640
Speaker 14: but there are a lot of excellent resources. They're not alone,

2967
02:42:27,840 --> 02:42:29,920
Speaker 14: like you know, you and I know this case, but

2968
02:42:29,959 --> 02:42:31,680
Speaker 14: there are so many people who's got the back of

2969
02:42:31,760 --> 02:42:35,200
Speaker 14: everyone who needs an abortion, and you know, you may

2970
02:42:35,280 --> 02:42:37,840
Speaker 14: not know the safe way of going about it, but

2971
02:42:38,400 --> 02:42:42,400
Speaker 14: there are people who are committed to digital security and safety.

2972
02:42:42,440 --> 02:42:46,080
Speaker 14: And you're in you're and you avoiding criminalization, So you know,

2973
02:42:46,200 --> 02:42:49,360
Speaker 14: part of the service is also reassuring people of that too,

2974
02:42:50,120 --> 02:42:52,240
Speaker 14: that it is possible to have a safe abortions.

2975
02:42:52,320 --> 02:43:03,160
Speaker 12: Even still, the next thing that.

2976
02:43:03,240 --> 02:43:05,600
Speaker 14: I know that we were talking about Kate in terms

2977
02:43:05,640 --> 02:43:09,080
Speaker 14: of like really practical, like what you can do now

2978
02:43:09,120 --> 02:43:12,400
Speaker 14: to protect yourself is having a plan for when you

2979
02:43:12,520 --> 02:43:14,840
Speaker 14: need to go get health care and you have to

2980
02:43:14,920 --> 02:43:18,600
Speaker 14: interface with like a medical team, a medical site such

2981
02:43:18,640 --> 02:43:19,959
Speaker 14: as an er a clinic.

2982
02:43:20,480 --> 02:43:23,320
Speaker 12: I'm an obgyn, a doctor of any kind.

2983
02:43:23,879 --> 02:43:28,160
Speaker 14: Because I think I believe the number one source of

2984
02:43:28,720 --> 02:43:31,760
Speaker 14: criminalization like who's reporting who who is criminal? Like who's

2985
02:43:31,840 --> 02:43:36,360
Speaker 14: calling the police, who's reporting these and giving over the

2986
02:43:36,440 --> 02:43:38,720
Speaker 14: information is as often healthcare worker.

2987
02:43:39,080 --> 02:43:41,080
Speaker 12: I believe that is the number one source.

2988
02:43:41,680 --> 02:43:44,160
Speaker 14: So you know, you do that is something to keep

2989
02:43:44,160 --> 02:43:46,560
Speaker 14: you to I am a healthcare worker, but it's just

2990
02:43:46,800 --> 02:43:49,440
Speaker 14: it's just a fact that that's something that we all

2991
02:43:49,480 --> 02:43:52,080
Speaker 14: need to be mindful of. And as a patient somebody

2992
02:43:52,120 --> 02:43:55,160
Speaker 14: is seeking healthcare, it's completely appropriate to be thinking of

2993
02:43:55,200 --> 02:43:57,760
Speaker 14: your own security and your safety when you're if you

2994
02:43:57,840 --> 02:44:00,600
Speaker 14: need to access health care. So you know, one thing

2995
02:44:01,160 --> 02:44:05,080
Speaker 14: is that luckily abortion is very safe and very effective,

2996
02:44:05,480 --> 02:44:09,480
Speaker 14: and if you don't feel comfortable going to an er

2997
02:44:09,959 --> 02:44:12,680
Speaker 14: for very good reasons. There are many good reasons to

2998
02:44:12,760 --> 02:44:15,440
Speaker 14: not want to go to r including costs, including your

2999
02:44:15,440 --> 02:44:18,240
Speaker 14: safety and security, the chance of criminalization.

3000
02:44:19,160 --> 02:44:22,560
Speaker 12: There is a free medical resource and a free legal.

3001
02:44:22,400 --> 02:44:24,080
Speaker 14: Resource that you can call. I'm going to talk about

3002
02:44:24,080 --> 02:44:27,800
Speaker 14: the medical resource first. There is the Miscarriage an Abortion

3003
02:44:27,920 --> 02:44:33,320
Speaker 14: Hotline or MA hotline dot org. But you can call

3004
02:44:33,640 --> 02:44:37,520
Speaker 14: and get some you know, feedback from a doctor about Hey,

3005
02:44:37,760 --> 02:44:39,000
Speaker 14: do I even need to go to the er?

3006
02:44:39,400 --> 02:44:40,120
Speaker 12: Is this normal?

3007
02:44:40,280 --> 02:44:43,320
Speaker 14: Is something wrong? You actually can run that by a

3008
02:44:43,440 --> 02:44:47,720
Speaker 14: safe person before just going to the er. And that's

3009
02:44:47,760 --> 02:44:50,360
Speaker 14: like one example of like having a plan, you know,

3010
02:44:50,520 --> 02:44:51,800
Speaker 14: like Okay, I think I might need.

3011
02:44:51,720 --> 02:44:52,400
Speaker 8: To go to the er.

3012
02:44:53,080 --> 02:44:55,440
Speaker 12: You know, let me check with a trusted resource.

3013
02:44:55,560 --> 02:44:58,039
Speaker 14: Let me check with the Miscarriage and Abortion hotline if

3014
02:44:58,080 --> 02:45:00,120
Speaker 14: I can get some feedback on what's going on with

3015
02:45:00,160 --> 02:45:03,280
Speaker 14: some of my symptoms. And you know, it's like this

3016
02:45:03,640 --> 02:45:07,800
Speaker 14: extra kind of added support that you can access as

3017
02:45:07,840 --> 02:45:10,760
Speaker 14: a pregnant person or you know, if you're having a miscarriage,

3018
02:45:11,000 --> 02:45:13,960
Speaker 14: if you're having an abortion, to assess your risk and

3019
02:45:14,000 --> 02:45:15,840
Speaker 14: to see if you can avoid even going to a

3020
02:45:15,920 --> 02:45:19,960
Speaker 14: medical slight given that you know, going to an emergency

3021
02:45:20,040 --> 02:45:24,360
Speaker 14: room in a banned state is something that does increase

3022
02:45:24,440 --> 02:45:25,560
Speaker 14: the risk of criminalization.

3023
02:45:26,120 --> 02:45:28,800
Speaker 13: Yes, and I think it was from our peers M

3024
02:45:28,879 --> 02:45:31,200
Speaker 13: and a hotline, and then I know the other hotline

3025
02:45:31,240 --> 02:45:34,720
Speaker 13: that if you have questions, also, the repro Legal Hotline

3026
02:45:35,320 --> 02:45:38,080
Speaker 13: is a wonderful resource that I know in all the

3027
02:45:38,120 --> 02:45:40,760
Speaker 13: show notes will include these. We try to include along

3028
02:45:40,800 --> 02:45:43,400
Speaker 13: with the miscarriage and Abortion hotline, so you have folks

3029
02:45:43,440 --> 02:45:45,920
Speaker 13: you can call who are professionals to ask about medical questions.

3030
02:45:46,200 --> 02:45:48,960
Speaker 13: If folks you can call who answer questions about legal

3031
02:45:49,080 --> 02:45:52,400
Speaker 13: questions about your abortion or pregnancy experience. I know that

3032
02:45:52,560 --> 02:45:55,240
Speaker 13: it's really hard because often when folks are in a

3033
02:45:55,360 --> 02:45:59,560
Speaker 13: hospital setting, we're sort of socialized to disclose everything. You know,

3034
02:45:59,680 --> 02:46:03,720
Speaker 13: we want to tell our doctor what's wrong and tell

3035
02:46:03,840 --> 02:46:07,320
Speaker 13: them everything we took, and you know, you worry it

3036
02:46:07,480 --> 02:46:10,840
Speaker 13: might be relevant. But I was reassured, I think by

3037
02:46:10,959 --> 02:46:13,680
Speaker 13: many other professionals in the space that doctors treat based

3038
02:46:13,720 --> 02:46:16,920
Speaker 13: on the symptoms that you present with, regardless of how

3039
02:46:17,000 --> 02:46:18,960
Speaker 13: they got there. You might be at a physician where

3040
02:46:18,959 --> 02:46:21,080
Speaker 13: you don't know, so you know, if you just tell

3041
02:46:21,160 --> 02:46:23,720
Speaker 13: folks what's going on with your body, what you are seeing,

3042
02:46:24,400 --> 02:46:27,080
Speaker 13: what you were feeling and experiencing. It is their job

3043
02:46:27,160 --> 02:46:29,119
Speaker 13: to treat you regardless of what you choose to share.

3044
02:46:29,200 --> 02:46:31,120
Speaker 13: And I would say that that's actually a true regardless

3045
02:46:31,360 --> 02:46:34,360
Speaker 13: of what healthcare condition you come into the ear with,

3046
02:46:35,120 --> 02:46:38,240
Speaker 13: it is your right to only disclose as much as

3047
02:46:38,320 --> 02:46:40,920
Speaker 13: you feel safe doing so. So I think, like that

3048
02:46:41,120 --> 02:46:43,280
Speaker 13: was something that I know, again we're not used to

3049
02:46:43,360 --> 02:46:45,600
Speaker 13: thinking about that as like a digital security measure, but

3050
02:46:45,680 --> 02:46:47,840
Speaker 13: it is an information in security measure, and I think

3051
02:46:47,879 --> 02:46:50,680
Speaker 13: an operational security measure that you know, we've had to

3052
02:46:50,800 --> 02:46:54,000
Speaker 13: like then realize that that's actually probably almost more important

3053
02:46:54,040 --> 02:46:55,879
Speaker 13: to tell people before we start getting into this nitty

3054
02:46:55,920 --> 02:46:58,040
Speaker 13: gritty of like things to do with your phone, is

3055
02:46:58,120 --> 02:47:01,840
Speaker 13: to understand that those principles that we believe that you know,

3056
02:47:02,400 --> 02:47:05,440
Speaker 13: the human again, the human body is very varied and

3057
02:47:05,520 --> 02:47:08,800
Speaker 13: how it experiences something like pregnancy, miscarriage, and abortion, and

3058
02:47:09,280 --> 02:47:11,360
Speaker 13: that you know, folks have a responsibility to treat you

3059
02:47:11,440 --> 02:47:14,720
Speaker 13: regardless of you know, what's in your phone or what

3060
02:47:14,840 --> 02:47:17,080
Speaker 13: happened before that, or the like statement of facts that

3061
02:47:17,120 --> 02:47:19,000
Speaker 13: are relevant to a courtroom and not to your care.

3062
02:47:19,600 --> 02:47:22,119
Speaker 3: So, yeah, do you too have anything else you want

3063
02:47:22,160 --> 02:47:24,720
Speaker 3: to make sure the audience knows before we head out.

3064
02:47:25,240 --> 02:47:26,280
Speaker 11: Yeah, just kind of like.

3065
02:47:26,280 --> 02:47:27,960
Speaker 13: One more piece. It's kind of our last piece of

3066
02:47:28,000 --> 02:47:30,120
Speaker 13: the puzzle, So you know, just to reiterate because I

3067
02:47:30,160 --> 02:47:32,160
Speaker 13: know it's good to hear things repeated again, you know,

3068
02:47:32,240 --> 02:47:35,760
Speaker 13: with the actual kind of pregnancy criminalization, digital security advice,

3069
02:47:35,879 --> 02:47:39,000
Speaker 13: we talk about understanding who you're disclosing stuff too, making

3070
02:47:39,040 --> 02:47:42,000
Speaker 13: sure they are clear on your expectations. Try to if

3071
02:47:42,000 --> 02:47:45,119
Speaker 13: you can have conversations with them in a secure place

3072
02:47:45,280 --> 02:47:47,800
Speaker 13: or a private place like signal with disappearing messages on.

3073
02:47:48,240 --> 02:47:49,800
Speaker 13: For our second item, we're going to make a plan

3074
02:47:49,920 --> 02:47:51,720
Speaker 13: for if we need to get care after the fact

3075
02:47:51,879 --> 02:47:54,520
Speaker 13: and ensure that we're trying to again have our support people.

3076
02:47:55,280 --> 02:47:58,120
Speaker 13: Also understand that you know, doctors treat you based on

3077
02:47:58,120 --> 02:48:00,280
Speaker 13: the symptoms you present with That is I don't have

3078
02:48:00,320 --> 02:48:02,040
Speaker 13: to tell them anything else that you do not wish

3079
02:48:02,080 --> 02:48:04,920
Speaker 13: to disclose. And the third thing is that something that

3080
02:48:04,959 --> 02:48:07,680
Speaker 13: I think as digital security practitioners we kind of forget

3081
02:48:07,800 --> 02:48:11,280
Speaker 13: is super important, which is that like you know, I

3082
02:48:11,320 --> 02:48:15,320
Speaker 13: think I run into this conflict where as like experts

3083
02:48:15,440 --> 02:48:18,240
Speaker 13: or smart people, we try to like imagine in our mind,

3084
02:48:18,480 --> 02:48:21,119
Speaker 13: like how we would have this perfectly like footprint free abortion,

3085
02:48:21,879 --> 02:48:24,320
Speaker 13: you know like this like use signal, use Tori's bitcoin,

3086
02:48:24,480 --> 02:48:28,240
Speaker 13: kind of like strange way of architecting, you know, privacy

3087
02:48:28,280 --> 02:48:30,560
Speaker 13: in our mind, And I call it the ghost abortion,

3088
02:48:30,959 --> 02:48:32,800
Speaker 13: like that it's it's a myth. You can't have one.

3089
02:48:32,879 --> 02:48:35,400
Speaker 13: There's no such thing as an abortion that leads no footprint.

3090
02:48:36,080 --> 02:48:38,320
Speaker 13: But I think we forget then that it actually is

3091
02:48:38,400 --> 02:48:41,040
Speaker 13: super meaningful to delete what's within our power to delete.

3092
02:48:41,120 --> 02:48:43,600
Speaker 13: So our third recommendation for folks is to like be

3093
02:48:43,720 --> 02:48:46,680
Speaker 13: aware of what's collected and then ensure that you know that.

3094
02:48:46,760 --> 02:48:48,320
Speaker 11: You can delete your browser history.

3095
02:48:48,360 --> 02:48:51,040
Speaker 13: You can delete your Google Map's history from like driving

3096
02:48:51,040 --> 02:48:53,520
Speaker 13: in to the clinic. You can delete your emails, you

3097
02:48:53,600 --> 02:48:56,680
Speaker 13: can delete messages on certain platforms, and I think, just

3098
02:48:56,760 --> 02:49:00,000
Speaker 13: like understanding that deleting what you can is actually super meaningful.

3099
02:49:00,000 --> 02:49:01,480
Speaker 11: Well, I actually didn't know untill.

3100
02:49:01,320 --> 02:49:05,080
Speaker 13: I got this job that certain platforms, like even Google products,

3101
02:49:05,160 --> 02:49:07,160
Speaker 13: like if you delete something from it, it is purge

3102
02:49:07,200 --> 02:49:09,040
Speaker 13: from the servers like something like two and a half

3103
02:49:09,080 --> 02:49:11,720
Speaker 13: months later. So when you delete stuff, it's very meaningful.

3104
02:49:12,160 --> 02:49:14,120
Speaker 13: I think there you get more options than ever to

3105
02:49:14,240 --> 02:49:16,600
Speaker 13: decide like how long you want to keep something, And

3106
02:49:16,720 --> 02:49:18,440
Speaker 13: it does make it so that that primary thing we

3107
02:49:18,520 --> 02:49:20,520
Speaker 13: talked about, like if somebody were to take my phone

3108
02:49:21,120 --> 02:49:23,000
Speaker 13: from me and to like you know, make a clone

3109
02:49:23,040 --> 02:49:24,760
Speaker 13: of it and try to look through it, at least

3110
02:49:24,800 --> 02:49:27,480
Speaker 13: it's deleted. That copy is no longer on my device.

3111
02:49:27,600 --> 02:49:29,320
Speaker 13: Even if they would have to go to like you know,

3112
02:49:29,400 --> 02:49:31,960
Speaker 13: get a warrant later, that is still great. It still

3113
02:49:32,000 --> 02:49:34,920
Speaker 13: gives me and my council time to respond and also

3114
02:49:34,959 --> 02:49:37,360
Speaker 13: allows me to access my right to do process. And

3115
02:49:37,440 --> 02:49:39,320
Speaker 13: I think so like these are like these three simple

3116
02:49:39,400 --> 02:49:41,879
Speaker 13: things I know that will give to link that our

3117
02:49:42,000 --> 02:49:43,520
Speaker 13: guide that kind of puts this all in a row

3118
02:49:43,560 --> 02:49:46,600
Speaker 13: and very plain language. We also have a Spanish language

3119
02:49:46,640 --> 02:49:48,680
Speaker 13: guide for it as well. But just to know that,

3120
02:49:48,840 --> 02:49:51,360
Speaker 13: like you know, these things are within our power. I

3121
02:49:51,400 --> 02:49:53,440
Speaker 13: think it's really easy to get tangled up in the

3122
02:49:53,560 --> 02:49:56,360
Speaker 13: idea of like abstract data and things that are really

3123
02:49:56,400 --> 02:49:58,320
Speaker 13: tough for us to always know when they're generated, like

3124
02:49:58,360 --> 02:50:01,280
Speaker 13: ad tracker data or you know, who is reselling or

3125
02:50:01,360 --> 02:50:04,199
Speaker 13: doing something with my period tracking apps. There are great

3126
02:50:04,240 --> 02:50:06,920
Speaker 13: options that are local only to your phone, like Yuki app.

3127
02:50:07,120 --> 02:50:09,920
Speaker 13: If you are concerned about that other apps seeing whether

3128
02:50:09,959 --> 02:50:12,039
Speaker 13: or not they use best practice of security. If they've

3129
02:50:12,080 --> 02:50:14,320
Speaker 13: responded and said like how they would respond to a

3130
02:50:14,400 --> 02:50:15,000
Speaker 13: legal request.

3131
02:50:15,040 --> 02:50:15,520
Speaker 11: That's awesome.

3132
02:50:15,720 --> 02:50:18,240
Speaker 13: I think that just sort of taking that uncertainty away

3133
02:50:18,360 --> 02:50:21,280
Speaker 13: is great because tracking your period is really important. As

3134
02:50:21,400 --> 02:50:23,720
Speaker 13: Crystal would tell you, it is an essential way that

3135
02:50:23,760 --> 02:50:25,760
Speaker 13: you're going to know how pregnant you are and find

3136
02:50:25,879 --> 02:50:28,440
Speaker 13: the option that's safest for your circumstances. So yeah, and

3137
02:50:28,520 --> 02:50:30,520
Speaker 13: that I'll pass to Crystal for anything else you think

3138
02:50:30,640 --> 02:50:31,960
Speaker 13: our folks should know before we depart.

3139
02:50:32,200 --> 02:50:36,199
Speaker 14: Yeah, tracking your period is important because if you don't

3140
02:50:36,320 --> 02:50:40,520
Speaker 14: know what's going on with your period and you get pregnant,

3141
02:50:40,840 --> 02:50:41,879
Speaker 14: it can delay your care.

3142
02:50:42,640 --> 02:50:44,520
Speaker 12: And you know, optimally you're.

3143
02:50:44,360 --> 02:50:49,080
Speaker 14: Getting the safest, quickest, most comfortable care for you, right,

3144
02:50:49,320 --> 02:50:51,000
Speaker 14: so it's really good to track that.

3145
02:50:51,800 --> 02:50:52,560
Speaker 12: I use Yuki.

3146
02:50:52,840 --> 02:50:54,360
Speaker 14: What I love about Yuki is that it has a

3147
02:50:54,400 --> 02:50:59,040
Speaker 14: pass code, and it stores everything locally and you can

3148
02:50:59,120 --> 02:51:02,400
Speaker 14: set to autoda your data and I love all of

3149
02:51:02,440 --> 02:51:05,000
Speaker 14: those things. So you know, and you know, I don't

3150
02:51:05,120 --> 02:51:06,879
Speaker 14: like using my paper calendar. If you love using your

3151
02:51:06,879 --> 02:51:09,520
Speaker 14: paper calendar, go use your paper camp, you know, whatever

3152
02:51:09,640 --> 02:51:12,320
Speaker 14: you want to do. But it is very important to

3153
02:51:13,080 --> 02:51:15,760
Speaker 14: know when your last period was because it can just

3154
02:51:15,840 --> 02:51:18,600
Speaker 14: make your care more timely. And that's really important given

3155
02:51:18,800 --> 02:51:22,120
Speaker 14: the abortion restrictions and the abortion bands. Now we are

3156
02:51:22,200 --> 02:51:26,080
Speaker 14: only you know, admittedly they're going to get worse. This

3157
02:51:26,240 --> 02:51:28,560
Speaker 14: is going to get less safe. There is going to

3158
02:51:28,600 --> 02:51:32,120
Speaker 14: be greater risk of criminalization. So when people call, when

3159
02:51:32,160 --> 02:51:35,080
Speaker 14: people call and they ask like can I access pills.

3160
02:51:35,200 --> 02:51:38,720
Speaker 12: Yes you can. You know, no matter what Trump does.

3161
02:51:38,959 --> 02:51:42,600
Speaker 14: You're going to be able to get abortion pills. There

3162
02:51:42,640 --> 02:51:45,199
Speaker 14: are countries all over the world that have total abortion

3163
02:51:45,360 --> 02:51:47,199
Speaker 14: bands and they have these abortion.

3164
02:51:47,040 --> 02:51:50,280
Speaker 12: Pills all the time. You know, it's not new in America.

3165
02:51:51,160 --> 02:51:53,560
Speaker 14: But you know, you do have to have a digital

3166
02:51:53,600 --> 02:51:55,360
Speaker 14: security plan while you're doing that, Like so, yes, you

3167
02:51:55,400 --> 02:51:57,959
Speaker 14: can order pills online, but yes, also have a digital

3168
02:51:58,000 --> 02:51:59,840
Speaker 14: security plan and keep this stuff in mind. It's really

3169
02:52:00,080 --> 02:52:02,280
Speaker 14: it's part of your healthcare plan now.

3170
02:52:03,760 --> 02:52:08,320
Speaker 13: Yeah, because you have the right to use safe, accessible,

3171
02:52:09,040 --> 02:52:13,960
Speaker 13: common sense like amazing technology products to actually obtain the

3172
02:52:14,000 --> 02:52:17,200
Speaker 13: abortion that you want. We really really do believe that

3173
02:52:17,320 --> 02:52:20,200
Speaker 13: like that part of autonomy. It includes digital autonomy as

3174
02:52:20,200 --> 02:52:22,160
Speaker 13: well as bottle of autonomy. They're all part and parsonally

3175
02:52:22,200 --> 02:52:24,600
Speaker 13: can't have one without the other. So thanks for having

3176
02:52:24,680 --> 02:52:24,840
Speaker 13: us on.

3177
02:52:25,800 --> 02:52:26,800
Speaker 12: Yeah, thanks theah.

3178
02:52:27,760 --> 02:52:30,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I want to close with one more thing

3179
02:52:30,520 --> 02:52:33,119
Speaker 3: that is related to this, but it's also what general advice.

3180
02:52:33,160 --> 02:52:35,760
Speaker 3: Don't talk to cops. Oh god, you know, I think

3181
02:52:35,800 --> 02:52:37,200
Speaker 3: that the common thing people say it is it is

3182
02:52:37,280 --> 02:52:38,960
Speaker 3: legal for them to lie to you, And that is true,

3183
02:52:39,320 --> 02:52:40,960
Speaker 3: but it's not just that as legal for them to

3184
02:52:41,000 --> 02:52:43,160
Speaker 3: lie to you. It is their job to lie to you.

3185
02:52:43,480 --> 02:52:45,560
Speaker 3: You cannot trust a single word that comes out of

3186
02:52:45,600 --> 02:52:47,880
Speaker 3: their mouths because it is their job to get you

3187
02:52:47,959 --> 02:52:50,520
Speaker 3: to confess to a crime or to get information out

3188
02:52:50,560 --> 02:52:52,959
Speaker 3: of you. They'll let you confess your crime, so invoke

3189
02:52:53,000 --> 02:52:56,160
Speaker 3: your right to remain silent, get a fucking lawyer, don't

3190
02:52:56,360 --> 02:52:58,680
Speaker 3: talk to them. And you know, listen, this is advice.

3191
02:52:58,720 --> 02:53:00,840
Speaker 3: It's not just coming from me, right like this, This

3192
02:53:01,240 --> 02:53:04,000
Speaker 3: is the advice you will get from every single person

3193
02:53:04,080 --> 02:53:05,840
Speaker 3: who does who does any kind of from offense. This

3194
02:53:05,879 --> 02:53:07,280
Speaker 3: is what you'll get from a public defender. This is

3195
02:53:07,320 --> 02:53:10,080
Speaker 3: what you'll get from anyone who has even sort of

3196
02:53:10,200 --> 02:53:12,560
Speaker 3: interacted with the legal system. And this is also true

3197
02:53:12,600 --> 02:53:14,480
Speaker 3: even if they tell you, oh, you're not a suspect,

3198
02:53:14,520 --> 02:53:16,360
Speaker 3: you're just a blah blah blah. We're trying to get information.

3199
02:53:17,280 --> 02:53:20,240
Speaker 3: It is their job to lie to you. Think about

3200
02:53:20,280 --> 02:53:23,199
Speaker 3: it roughly the same way of like if you're dealing

3201
02:53:23,280 --> 02:53:25,640
Speaker 3: with like a country secret police. How much information would

3202
02:53:25,680 --> 02:53:28,800
Speaker 3: you give them? The answer is do not. Simply do

3203
02:53:28,959 --> 02:53:29,360
Speaker 3: not do this.

3204
02:53:29,720 --> 02:53:32,320
Speaker 13: Exactly, and you know, no, no matter what that there

3205
02:53:32,360 --> 02:53:34,760
Speaker 13: are people again like Crystal Sapho will support you. Yeah,

3206
02:53:34,879 --> 02:53:38,279
Speaker 13: there are amazing teams across the United States, from medical

3207
02:53:38,320 --> 02:53:40,160
Speaker 13: support to legal support. We're there for you and they

3208
02:53:40,200 --> 02:53:43,800
Speaker 13: would all, I think wholeheartedly endorse as do we. Yes,

3209
02:53:43,920 --> 02:53:45,920
Speaker 13: please do not talk to cops. And that's a great

3210
02:53:45,959 --> 02:53:46,440
Speaker 13: note to end on.

3211
02:53:46,720 --> 02:53:46,920
Speaker 8: Yeah.

3212
02:53:47,800 --> 02:53:49,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank you to you both for coming on.

3213
02:53:50,120 --> 02:53:52,400
Speaker 3: And maybe we live to see a world better than

3214
02:53:52,480 --> 02:53:54,320
Speaker 3: this one where you could just do this stuff and

3215
02:53:54,400 --> 02:53:55,520
Speaker 3: not have to have any concerns.

3216
02:53:55,680 --> 02:53:59,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, one day, but until then we can do this

3217
02:54:00,040 --> 02:54:00,640
Speaker 12: very securely.

3218
02:54:01,400 --> 02:54:03,640
Speaker 11: Yes, we got our own backs. We can do this together.

3219
02:54:04,800 --> 02:54:05,680
Speaker 11: Thanks for having us on.

3220
02:54:08,320 --> 02:54:11,440
Speaker 1: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3221
02:54:11,560 --> 02:54:13,440
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3222
02:54:13,879 --> 02:54:14,480
Speaker 11: It could happen.

3223
02:54:14,520 --> 02:54:16,360
Speaker 6: Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3224
02:54:16,560 --> 02:54:19,600
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3225
02:54:19,720 --> 02:54:23,240
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3226
02:54:23,360 --> 02:54:26,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3227
02:54:26,680 --> 02:54:28,560
Speaker 2: You can now find sources for it could happen here,

3228
02:54:28,640 --> 02:54:30,440
Speaker 2: listed directly in episode descriptions.

3229
02:54:30,800 --> 02:54:31,560
Speaker 11: Thanks for listening,