1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: On this episode of the News World, I'm really pleased 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: to welcome my guests, Max Boot. He's joining me today 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: to discuss his new book on President Reagan, entitled Reagan, 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: His Life and Legend, which is already a New York 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: Times bestseller. There are a lot of biographies about Reagan, 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: but I want to share with you some of the 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: reviews Max's book has received, just to give you a 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: flavor of how good this book is. It has been 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: acclaimed as quote the definity biography by The New Yorker 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: Magisterial and splendid by The Washington Post, and a book 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: that quote stands out for its deep research, lucid prose, 12 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: and command of its subjects, broad political and social context 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: by the New York Times. Max Boot is the Jane 14 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: ja Orpatrick Senior Fellow for National Security Studies at the 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: Council on Foreign Relations, a columnist for The Washington Post, 16 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: and a best selling author. His previous biography, The Road 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: Not Taken Edward Lansdale and the American Tragy in Vietnam, 18 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: was a New York Times bestseller and a finalist for 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: the twenty nineteen Pulitzer Prize. Biography Max, Welcome and thank you. 20 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: For joining me on Newsworld. 21 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here with you, mister speaker. 22 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: Before we get into the new book about Reagan, I 23 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: do want to congratulate you on being a finalist for 24 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: the twenty nineteen Politic Serprize and Biography for your book 25 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: The Road Not Taken Edward Lansdale and the American Tragedy 26 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: in Vietnam. Will you briefly talk both about the book 27 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: in what it was like to be a finalist? 28 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for those kind words. The book was about 29 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: this legendary COVID operative. He was an Air Force officer 30 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: but worked for the CIA, helped to defeat a communist 31 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: insurgency in the Philippines in the late forties early fifties, 32 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: and then helped to create the state of South Vietnam 33 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: and was a major player in the early years of 34 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: America's involvement in the Vietnam War, and then ultimately a 35 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: bystander to the tragedy that the war turned into, which 36 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: he had warned against and became a prophet who was 37 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: not heeded, but a fascinating story and telling the story 38 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 2: of Edward Landsday was kind of my gateway drug for 39 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: writing biography because before that, I had written these big, 40 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: sprawling military histories. But I really enjoyed focusing on at 41 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 2: Lansdale's life and not just writing about his professional activities, 42 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: but also about his personal life. There was a great 43 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 2: love story at the heart of the book. He had 44 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 2: a passionate love affair with a Filipino woman named Pat Kelly, 45 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: whom he eventually, after his first wife died, he married 46 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 2: Pat Kelly. And so I found all these love letters 47 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: that Pat and Ed had exchanged and gave me a 48 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: really amazing advantage point on too at Lansdale's inner life. 49 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: And so it was a fascinating experience to write that book, 50 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: and I was very honored and privileged to be a 51 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. And then so as I 52 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: was thinking about, you know, what would I do next, 53 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 2: what would I do for an encore? I decided that 54 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed doing biography and I wanted to do 55 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: that rather than return to these big sprang military histories. 56 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: And so that's how I wound up writing about the 57 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 2: life of Ronald Reagan. 58 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: I think your book on Lansdale is important because it 59 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: seems to me that both in Afghanistan and Iraq, we 60 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: had learned none of the lessons of Vietnam that, in fact, 61 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: the Lansdale approach, if anything, would have worked, it was 62 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: much closer to the Lansdale model than what we actually did. 63 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I certainly agree with that. 64 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and yet it's almost impossible to get our military 65 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: bureaucracy either to learn the lessons or to rethink how 66 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: they do things. It's just something I'm actually writing on 67 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: right now that is astonishing, the resistance to rethinking. 68 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: That's a great and important topic. And Ed Lansdale was 69 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,839 Speaker 2: one of those guys who was a complete maverick who 70 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: was really anathema at depending on in frankly anathema at 71 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: the CIA as well, because he was somebody who was 72 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 2: always at odds with the bureaucracy and just determined to 73 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 2: do his own thing. And so the people who were 74 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 2: the skillful bureaucratic players really hated him and finally pushed 75 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: him out of a senior policy role. I think very 76 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: much to America's detriment. I think that is as I'm 77 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: sure you're finding what you're writing now. I mean, I 78 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: think that's a huge issue today, where you're seeing how 79 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: warfare has transformed with drones and you know, AI and 80 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: all these other systems, and yet we're still largely operating 81 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: a military based on mid twentieth century platforms, and it's 82 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: very hard to make that transition. 83 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: Well, and you and I are talking just a few 84 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: hours after he is really showed a very sophisticated approach 85 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: to a kind of cyber war that had devastating consequences. 86 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: In fact, that our military has almost no capacity for 87 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: thinking about those kind of profoundly different approaches to impacting 88 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: your opponent. 89 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that should be a wake up call 90 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: for our military and multiple levels, including thinking about how 91 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: do they safeguard their communications devices and how do they 92 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 2: safeguard their supply chains, because they're going to be very 93 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: clever adversaries out there. They're going to be thinking about 94 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: how to exploit our vulnerabilities as the Israelis exploited has 95 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: Belaw's vulnerabilities. 96 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: So when you decided you would continue doing biographies, what 97 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: led you to pick Reagan? 98 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: Nald Reagan was such a consequential president, not just for 99 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: the country and the world, but for me personally growing 100 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: up in the nineteen eighties. He really shaped my worldview, 101 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: made me a conservative and a Republican and obviously changed 102 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: the world in so many ways. And yet when I 103 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: was starting this book more than a decade ago, I 104 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: came to the conclusion, while there are many books about 105 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: Ron Reagan, including many good books about Reagan, there was 106 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: not one definitive, objective biography. And so that is what 107 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: I set out to do, to produce a book that 108 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: looked at Reagan in a balanced and fair way, that 109 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: looked at his achievements as well as his failures, at 110 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: his successes and setbacks, his strengths and weaknesses, and really 111 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 2: to present an objective view that I think you can 112 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: only really achieve decades after somebody has left the political scene. 113 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 2: And so I was delighted to see, as you quoted earlier, 114 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 2: that the New Yorker said, it's the definitive biography, because 115 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: that's exactly what I was aiming to do. 116 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: You now have a range of information that literally wasn't available. 117 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: And how much did that enrich and deepen your understanding 118 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: of Reagan. 119 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: It was tremendously helpful. I think I kind of wrote 120 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: this at kind of a sweet point in history, because, 121 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 2: on the one hand, I was writing at a time 122 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: when a lot of new archival information has opened up 123 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: a lot of documents that were one secret are now 124 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: available for viewing at the Reagan Library and CEMEE Valley, California. 125 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 2: But at the same time, I was starting this early 126 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: enough that there were a lot of people who really 127 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: knew Reagan and worked with them very closely, who were 128 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: still around to be interviewed. And sadly, a lot of 129 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: those folks that I talked to at the start of 130 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: this book project are no longer with us, you know, 131 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: folks like George Schultz or Colin Pewell or Bud McFarland 132 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: or so many others. So you know they're going to 133 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: be Certainly, future historians are going to be able to 134 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: read even more documents because more stuff gets declassified every year, 135 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: but they're not going to be able to sit down 136 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: as I did with a lot of the key players 137 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: and actually talk to them and to gain their personal perspective. 138 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: What made this research process, which was very lengthy but 139 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: made it very fulfilling, was that combination of those two things, 140 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: or the ability to tap into new documents, but also 141 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: the ability to tap into old memories and to talk 142 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: to people who were there and could give their perspectives, 143 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: some of whom I'm delighted to say are still very 144 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: much around. 145 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: Were your views or your assessment of Reagan changed as 146 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: you did all this research. 147 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And I didn't go in to this with 148 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: a lot of preconceptions other than my one desire was 149 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: kind of follow the evidence and see what would shake out. 150 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: And one of the things that I concluded was that 151 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: he was both more ideological and more pragmatic than I 152 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: had realized or I think that most people realize. And 153 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: what I discovered was, for example, in terms of his ideology, 154 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: I mean, he had gone pretty far to the right 155 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: by the early nineteen sixties, having grown up as a 156 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: New Deal Democrat, he had become a very conservative Republican 157 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: who was warning that, you know, Medicare and Medicaid was 158 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: going to lead to the loss of freedom in America, 159 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 2: who said in his famous Time for Choosing speech in 160 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four that the Party of Jefferson, Jackson and 161 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: Cleveland was now marching under the banners of Marx, Lennon 162 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: and Stalin, and so all this kind of very hardcore 163 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: rhetoric which people tend to forget about if they remember 164 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: him as kind of a grandfatherly president, but he was 165 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: really an ideological crusader for a large part of his life. 166 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: But that led to unrealistic expectations or unfair expectations of 167 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: what would happen once he was actually elected. A lot 168 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 2: of people expected, based on his very Goldwater type rhetoric, 169 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: that he would turn out to be a very far 170 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: right leader as governor of California and as President of 171 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 2: the United States. And he really up into those expectations 172 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: because I think he showed that he had a massive 173 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 2: pragmatic streak and a willingness to do deals, a willingness 174 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: to pivot to the center, and his record I think, 175 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: as both governor and president, kind of defied easy ideological labels. 176 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: I mean, he was certainly coming from the conservative perspective 177 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: in general. But you know, he signed his first budget 178 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 2: is governor of California, had the largest spending plan and 179 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 2: tax increase in California history. And his governor of California, 180 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: he also signed one of the most liberal abortion laws 181 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: in the country, signed a very tough gun control bill, 182 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: and then, as you know, President of the United States, 183 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 2: he also he signed big as you know, you were there, 184 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 2: you were in Congress at the time, and he signed 185 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: big tax cuts, but he also signed some tax increases, 186 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,359 Speaker 2: and in nineteen eighty six he signed legislation that legalized 187 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: millions of un documented immigrants. And finally, I think, in 188 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: some ways his most important achievement and most unexpected achievement, 189 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 2: he worked with Mikhail Gorbachev to peacefully in the Cold War, 190 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: which is not necessarily something you would expect from somebody 191 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 2: who'd been this staunch anti communist his entire life, opponent 192 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: of Dayton, advocate of confrontation with the Kremlin. And yet 193 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: he saw that Gorbachev was a different kind of communist leader, 194 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: and so he was able to put his preconceptions aside 195 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 2: and to work very pragmatically to reduce the risk of 196 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: nuclear conflict in the conflict between our two countries. I 197 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: was kind of surprised to see the extent of which 198 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: his record was actually very pragmatic and much less ideological 199 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: than a lot of people thought. 200 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: Do you do an interesting analogy that it took about 201 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: thirty years for Eisenhower to re emerge as a really 202 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: subtle and sophisticated user of power, And in a sense 203 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: we're in the same cycle now with Reagan, in that 204 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: when you look back, the number of things achieved, as 205 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,239 Speaker 1: you point out, particularly the dance he did with Gorbachev, 206 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: is so astonishing and I think so unpredictable in nineteen 207 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: eighty To what extent do you think, Margaret Thatcher's initial 208 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: intervention saying, you know, I think we can deal with 209 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: this guy changed Reagan's view and in sense changed the 210 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: course of history. 211 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 2: I think that was tremendously important, because Thatcher was one 212 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: of the world leaders. He was closest to and had 213 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: the most respect for the other one being Brian maul 214 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: Rooney than the Prime Minister of Canada. But the fact 215 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 2: that Thatcher actually met Gorbachev before he took over a 216 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 2: Soviet leader and concluded, this is a guy we can 217 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: do business with, and she actually flew to the United 218 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: States and went to Camp David until President Reagan that 219 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 2: and obviously he had great respect for Thatcher as a 220 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 2: fellow conservative anti communist, so hearing Thatcher say that impressed him. 221 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: But I would say that there was still a lot 222 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 2: of doubt and uncertainty in Reagan's mind prior to his 223 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: first summit with Gorbachev in Geneva in nineteen eighty five, 224 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: because he was hearing from a lot of people, including 225 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 2: Defense Secretary cast For Weinberger and Bob Gates at the CIA, 226 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: and many others were suggesting to him that Gorbachev was 227 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: just a classic communists, no different from the rest. And 228 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: you know, he was trying to snooker us and take 229 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: us for a ride, and we had to keep our 230 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 2: guard up, and so he didn't really know what to expect. 231 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: I mean, he was kind of hopeful of progress, but 232 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 2: he wasn't sure it was going to happen. And then 233 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: I think it was really that summat those two days 234 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 2: in Geneva, I think really changed Dragan's mind and changed 235 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: the course of world history because is you know, Jack Matlock, 236 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: who was his aide at the NSC and later ambassador 237 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: to Moscow, said, you know, after Geneva, Reagan did not 238 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: need an intelligence assessment to tell him that he could 239 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 2: work with Gorbachev. He felt it instinctively because he had 240 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 2: established that personal rapport. And it was just fascinating to 241 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 2: read the transcripts of their meetings in Geneva, which are 242 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: now available, and you know, especially interesting to see like 243 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 2: their after dinner conversations, not just their negotiating sessions, but 244 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 2: their dinner conversations, you know, where Reagan said something along 245 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: the lines of imagine, if Earth was going to be 246 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: invaded by aliens, we would all come together in defense 247 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 2: of the planet. So we have to come together and 248 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: basically analogizing nuclear weapons to aliens that we all had 249 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 2: to come together to defend against. And I think that 250 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 2: made a powerful impression on Gorbachev. And you know, I 251 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: think at one point Gorbachev dropped a reference to Jesus Christ, 252 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 2: and I think that made a powerful impression on Reagan 253 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: because he came away thinking, oh, you know, maybe Gorbachev 254 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: was a closet religious believer. And so they established these 255 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: bonds in Geneva that I think proved incredibly consequential over 256 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 2: the next few years. 257 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: Would you say that the opening up of the Soviet 258 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: Union and the encouraging of Gorbachev into glass snowst and 259 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: perastroika and arms deals, is that Reagan's biggest single contribution 260 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: as a historic figure. 261 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 2: I don't think Reagan really caused the Gorbachev reforms. He 262 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: certainly followed a confrontational policy with the Soviet Union in 263 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: the first term, and you know, building up defense spending, 264 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: launching sdi hating the Afghan Mujahedeen and Polish Solidarity and 265 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: so forth and so on. But I don't think there's 266 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: any real indication prior to Gorbachev coming to power in 267 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: eighty five that the Soviet Union was going to break 268 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: apart or was going to crack under the strain. And 269 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: you see today that there are lots of communist regimes 270 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: in Cuba, or Vietnam, North Korea, China that have survived 271 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: since the nineteen eighties, and a lot of them looked 272 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: much weaker at the time than the Soviet Union. So 273 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: I think the real change was Gorbachev coming to power. 274 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: And I don't think that his comrades on the Pallapiro 275 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 2: knew at the time how radical reformer he would turn 276 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 2: out to be. And I don't think even Gorbachev himself, frankly, 277 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: knew how radical reformer he would turn out to be. 278 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: But I think Gorbachev was a very unusual character in 279 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 2: that he was sewn. He rose to the top of 280 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: this dictatorial system, but then largely lost faith in that dictatorship, 281 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: and he actually wanted to reform the Soviet Union, make 282 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: life better for Soviet citizens, and he didn't want to 283 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: break up the Soviet Union. But basically, I think that 284 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: was the unintended consequence of his reforms of Glasnost and 285 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 2: Peristroika led to the crackup of the Soviet Union. So 286 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: I don't think Reagan caused Gorbachev to come to power. 287 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: I don't think he caused Gorbachev's reforms, But I think 288 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: what he did do was incredibly important, which was he 289 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: recognized that Gorbachev was actually trying to change things, and 290 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: he worked with Gorbachev to lower tensions and make it 291 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: possible for Gorbachev to sideline the hardliners in the Kremlin 292 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: and to encourage him and gave him kind of top 293 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: cover and support from the American President, which was a 294 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: very powerful thing for Gorbachev to continue down this path 295 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: of reform. So I think his contribution isn't what it's 296 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: often made out to me, but it was a very 297 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 2: significant contribution and very much to his credit that he 298 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 2: did that. 299 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: The feeling we got in that period, because that was 300 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: in Congress, was that the inability of the system to 301 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: tell Gorbachev the truth about the nuclear event at Chernobyl 302 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: and the fact that the only accurate information you could 303 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: get was from Swedish and Norwegian television really shook him 304 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: about how deeply corrupt the system had become, and that 305 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: if you didn't have very substantial reforms, it just wasn't 306 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: gonna work. 307 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. But I think 308 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: it would have been another story if somebody else had 309 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: taken over the Soviet Union in nineteen eighty five. I mean, 310 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: imagine if somebody like Putin had taken over the Soviet 311 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: Union eighty five. I mean, it's impossible to imagine that 312 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: he would wind up liberalizing or worrying about the fate 313 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: of the Soviet people. He would probably just crack down 314 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: even harder, and you could have had a tenement square 315 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 2: massacre in the Soviet Union as you had in Beijing. 316 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: You talk about Reagan personally from the standpoint that you 317 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: attended his final campaign rally in eighty four. Looking back, 318 00:16:58,480 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: what was that like? 319 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: It was an awesome event, even though I was roasting 320 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: in the sun for several hours before the Great Man appeared. 321 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: But I was, you know, a huge fan of Ronald 322 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: Reagan in those days. And my family came from the 323 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 2: Soviet Union in nineteen seventy six, So like a lot 324 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: of immigrats from communist countries. I tended to gravitate towards 325 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: the right side of the political spectrum, and I was 326 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 2: really thrilled when Reagan called out the evil Empire and 327 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: talked about human rights abuses, said mister Gorbachev turned down 328 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 2: this wall all the rest of it. And so I 329 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 2: was like a lot of people at the time. I 330 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 2: think you remember, I think Reagan really made conservatism cool 331 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties, and I was certainly a young 332 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 2: person at the time, and I was just thrilled. And 333 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 2: he gave it was I mean, it was a very 334 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: perfunctory campaign speech. It was like probably twenty minutes or something. 335 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 2: But he always had that horror about him. He was 336 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 2: always so good natured, so good humored, always had just 337 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 2: the right joke to open up and to establish that 338 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: rapport with his audience. And as you know, just watching 339 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 2: Reagan speak was always kind of a masterclass communicating. 340 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: I think part of it was because he was a 341 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: movie star, and part of it was because he'd learned 342 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: how to carry himself as a movie star war I 343 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: know from my own perspective as a junior member of Congress, 344 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: when he walked in the room you were clearly dealing 345 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: with the charismatic figure, and he seemed effortless in the 346 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: way he did it. 347 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: I remember Stu Spencer, who was his longtime political consultantating 348 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: back to nineteen sixty six, told me something funny where 349 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: he said like Reagan was the only guy where he 350 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: would seem like in the green room getting ready to 351 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 2: go on and give a speech. And he felt like 352 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: Reagan was almost like growing before his eyes. It was 353 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 2: like a transformation, like Clark Camp was becoming Superman. He 354 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: was like assuming this aura because, as you know, I'm 355 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 2: sure from dealing with him personally, he was actually a 356 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 2: fairly quiet, introverted person. He was not actually a glad hander. 357 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 2: He was not all that outgoing. I mean, well, Reagan's 358 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: idea of a great evening was going home, sitting in 359 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: front of the TV, watching in open hands or a 360 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: gun smoke, reading a little bit, and going to bed. 361 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 2: He wasn't out there dying to socialize with people. And 362 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: if he was in a party and didn't know anybody, 363 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 2: he would be the guy just standing after the side 364 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 2: waiting for somebody to talk to him. He was not 365 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 2: like a Bill Clinton type of glad hander and backslapper. 366 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 2: But when he had an audience and people listening to him, 367 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 2: he just became this unbelievably charismatic figure. 368 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: I remember seeing him as he walked up the stairs 369 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: to give the speech. 370 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 2: He grew right, yeah, that's what Stu said. 371 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you could see, well, in a sense, the actor. 372 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: I mean, he was an actor and that was a 373 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: big part of it. 374 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, And a lot of people tended to denegrate him, 375 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: saying like, oh, he's just a guy who reads a teleprompter, 376 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 2: and he was very good at reading a teleprompter. But 377 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 2: it was way more than that, because it wasn't just 378 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 2: reading other people's thoughts. He was just a great person 379 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 2: in constructing the arguments and making the case himself. And 380 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: as Stu Spencer said to me again, one of my 381 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 2: best interview subjects. Stu said, Reagan was not just the 382 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 2: best speech giver that he knew, but also the best 383 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: speech writer. He was so good at constructing arguments, and 384 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 2: he often did it on the fly. For example. But 385 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: you might have been there at the seventy six Republican 386 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: Convention where he lost the nomination to Ford, and he 387 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: was sitting up on the raptors. I think it was 388 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 2: in Kansas City, and Ford says, from the stage, and 389 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: I like my good friend Ron Reagan to come down 390 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: here and say something. And he didn't have a prepared speech. 391 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 2: And as he was walking down, you know, from the 392 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 2: raptors through the hallways of the convention center, you know, 393 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: Nancy Reagan was saying to him, well, do you know 394 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: what you're going to say? And he said, oh, I'll 395 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 2: think of something. And he did have some general ideas, 396 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: but he didn't have a speech. He basically extemporized this 397 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: brilliant speech on the spot that made a lot of 398 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: delicates say like, wow, we nominated the wrong guy. This 399 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: guy is so much more articulate than the guy we 400 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: actually nominated. 401 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: No, that's right. A good friend of mine said he 402 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: knew at the end of that talk that they nominated 403 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: the wrong guy. Tim Rusher met with the last day 404 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: he was in office and said, what do you think 405 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: it's true about you? That was not true but any 406 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: other president, And he said Reagan sat there for a 407 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: minute and he looked at him and said, I think 408 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: I'm the only one who knows what it's like to 409 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: be photographed from every angle. And Russell said it hit 410 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: him that Reagan was never off, and that when he 411 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: was with you, he was on. He may be off 412 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: when he's with Nancy, but otherwise when the minute he 413 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: walked out of that room, he was on all day, 414 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: every day. 415 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know exactly. That reminds me of another one 416 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 2: of his famous quips, which is where he was asked 417 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: how could an actor be president? And his reply was, 418 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: he didn't understand how anybody but an actor could be president. 419 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: And he really understood that performative aspect of the presidency 420 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: in a way that very few others did. Like FDR 421 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: his boyhood, Idol did, JFK did, Reagan did, but very 422 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 2: few others understood how you had to carry yourself in 423 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: the public eye. And that's something that Reagan had off. 424 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: He'd been doing since his days as a sportscaster in 425 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 2: the Midwestern his nineteen twenty so he had been in 426 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 2: the public eye really his whole life and felt very 427 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: comfortable in that role. 428 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: How much do you think growing up in a small 429 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: town in Illinois and then having his first job in 430 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: Des Moines, how much did all that do they shaped him? 431 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: Oh, it was tremendously important, I think, And we tend 432 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: to think of Reagan as a Westerner because of course, 433 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: you know, he loved his ranch near Santa Barbara, and 434 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 2: he was governor of California, and he wore cowboy hats 435 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 2: and all the rest of it. But he was really 436 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 2: a Midwesterner. That's where he spent all of his formative 437 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 2: years up until his late twenties. He was really shaped 438 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: by this small town world in rural Illinois. We're moving 439 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: around from town to town because his father, Jack was 440 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: this alcoholic shoe salesman who kept losing one job after another, 441 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 2: and so you know, moving around with I think all 442 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: the strengths and weaknesses of that time and place. You know, 443 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: very very different America. I mean, he was born in 444 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 2: nineteen eleven, he grew up in the nineteen teens and twenties. 445 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: He was born at the end of the horse and 446 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: buggy age, and he was president in the nuclear age. 447 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: I mean, just an amazing amount of history occurred when 448 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 2: he was president. And Walt Disney later kind of mythologized 449 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: those small towns as main Street USA at Disneyland, But 450 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: Reagan lived on the actual Main Street USA, not in 451 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: the Disneyland attraction, but the actual one, and they were 452 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: to be sure. It wasn't all rosy, and he tended 453 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: to have very rose colored remembrances of his childhood and 454 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: blot it out, like the fact that his father was 455 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: this alcoholic, that there were all these personality conflicts between 456 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 2: mother and father, the fact that they were very poor 457 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 2: moving all the time, and also the towns they had 458 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 2: a lot of virtues, but they weren't ideal like I mean. 459 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: He always talked about kind of the self reliance he 460 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: was taught growing up in Dixon, Illinois, and how neighbors 461 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 2: love neighbors and worked together and a sense of community 462 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 2: and all that was very true, but there was also 463 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: a darker side to it. For example, I discovered that 464 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: the ku Klux Klan was very active in Dixon in 465 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties. They were marching through downtown in their 466 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: white sheets. So there was also that less admirable side 467 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 2: of reality. But he tended to focus on the positive 468 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 2: because that's kind of how he saw his whole life 469 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: and had really been taught by his mother to always 470 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 2: look on the sunny side of life. That was very 471 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 2: much his outlook in ways that often actually frustrated even 472 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: Nancy Reagan, who thought he was like being too Pollyannish, 473 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: too good natured, but that's kind of who he. 474 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: Was when you were doing the research. How many people 475 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: do you think he actually saved when he was a lifeguard? 476 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 2: Oh, I think it was actually about seventy seven. I mean, 477 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 2: there are a lot of legends around Ronald Reagan and 478 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 2: some legends that he propagated himself, but that one I 479 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 2: think is actually reality. I mean, I think a lot 480 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 2: of cynics say, oh, you know that was exaggerated, or 481 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 2: you know, girls were just pretending to drown so they 482 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 2: could be saved by the handsome lifeguard. But I think 483 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 2: it's actually pretty well documented and he really did say 484 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 2: about seventy seven people, and he became a hometown hero 485 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 2: because of that. But actually, the most revealing comment he 486 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 2: ever made about his life guarding was something he said 487 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 2: to a movie fan magazine in the late thirties. And 488 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: as you know, Reagan was not a very self revealing 489 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: person and didn't really reflect much on himself in interviews. 490 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 2: But what he said I thought was very interesting, where 491 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,239 Speaker 2: he said that he liked being a lifeguard because you know, 492 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 2: he was sitting up on that big stand and everybody 493 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 2: was looking up to him, he was the center of attention, 494 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: so he actually kind of liked being the center of attention. 495 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 2: I thought that was fascinating because he was such a 496 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: modest and self effacing guy. But that was giving you, 497 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: like the small peak of the ego that he actually 498 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: had within him, that what we all have really. 499 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: Lawrence Olivia was once asked why he became an actor, 500 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: and he said, look at me, look at me, look 501 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: at me, in a way replaing about Reagan. 502 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: He liked the attention, Yes, yeah, And that's a little 503 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 2: bit paradoxical because again, he was much better than most 504 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 2: presidents at hiding it. I mean, some presidents their star 505 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: for attention and you can feel their neediness, and he 506 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 2: never felt needy. He always felt like he didn't really 507 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 2: need it. But it was also partly because he was 508 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 2: so used to attention. He was always, you know, in 509 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: the camera's eye, and that was kind of normality for him. 510 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: Will you write about Reagan's role during World War Two? 511 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: I was very struck when Chlis and I went to 512 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: the ranch where we were filming with Ronald Reagan Rendevoue Destiny, 513 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: And as I looked around at the ranch, first of all, 514 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: there's a picture of him in the last unit of 515 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: Horse Cavalry in the nineteen thirties, so he's in the rotc. 516 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: There's a book on his shelf which is the original 517 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: nineteen forty edition of Infantry a War, which was the 518 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: Doctor in Manual from Fort Bender, And it was clear 519 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: that he was serious. And yet when you get to 520 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 1: the war, he essentially stays home in uniform doing training films. 521 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: I'm curious how you parse all of that. 522 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 2: He was the beneficiary of some lobbying behind the scenes 523 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: by Warner Brothers, which his studio, which lobbied to keep 524 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 2: him out of uniform as long as possible because they 525 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 2: wanted to keep him making movies. And then when he 526 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 2: was called up, they basically pulled some strings and got 527 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 2: him assigned to this first motion picture unit of the 528 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: US Army Air Force, located in Culver City, California. And 529 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 2: so the justification for that was that he had very 530 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 2: poor eyesight. You know, his eyesight would keep him out 531 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 2: of combat, which was probably accurate, although there were certainly 532 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 2: examples of others who had physical issues who nevertheless actively 533 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: went out and sought combat. You think about John F. Kennedy, 534 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 2: for example, who had very bad back problems, but nevertheless 535 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 2: got himself assigned to pt boats in the Pacific. But 536 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 2: Reagan was basically content to spend the war in Culver City, California, 537 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 2: making training in propaganda films. And he certainly made a contribution. 538 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 2: And there was nothing dishonorable about what he did. I mean, 539 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 2: there were millions of service people who never went into combat, 540 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 2: and he was certainly one of those. He did his bit. 541 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: But I think the movie magazines gave kind of a 542 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: distorted impression of what he was up to, because when 543 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: he would show up at restaurants or bars, you know, 544 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 2: they would write stories about, you know, Ronnie Reagan back 545 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 2: from the front, making it seem like he was engaged 546 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 2: in combat. You know, he wasn't back from anywhere. He 547 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 2: was a mile down the street basically. 548 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: Well, he was in the screen Actors Guild. He encountered 549 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: real communists and it kind of shook him. And it's 550 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: sort of the beginning of the intensity of his out 551 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: of Communism. What did you discover? 552 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: I think that's right. I mean, I think he started 553 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 2: moving to the right again. He was a guy who 554 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: was a very passionate New Deal Democrat. As he said 555 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 2: worshiped FDR Liberal Democrat. But then it started. I think 556 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 2: it was during the war years he started moving to 557 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: the right a little bit. He was as a highly 558 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 2: paid movie star, he was very unhappy about paying, you know, 559 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 2: ninety percent income tax rates. And he was also kind 560 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: of discussed with a lot of the feather bedding and 561 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: bureaucracy that he encountered in the War Department. But I 562 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 2: think he really began to make the transition in the 563 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: post war era, where as you know, his movie career 564 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 2: was waning, and so he devoted more of his time 565 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: to activism and to becoming a labor leader and eventually 566 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: president of the Screen Actors Guild. And so he wound 567 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 2: up in the middle of these battles over communism in Hollywood. 568 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,719 Speaker 2: And you know, he testified before the House on American 569 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: Affairs Committee, he cooperated with the FBI, and he was 570 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 2: de facto helped to administer the Hollywood Blacklist, And he 571 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 2: was certainly battling some real communists in Hollywood. There were 572 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: certainly real communists in Hollywood. I think in hindsight, he 573 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: probably tended to exaggerate the threat a little bit, largely 574 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 2: based on what the FBI and others were telling him 575 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: because they were convinced that there was a made in 576 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 2: the Kremlin plot to take over Hollywood, which you know, 577 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: I didn't see a lot of evidence of. It would 578 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: have been very hard to pull up because, as David Niven, 579 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 2: I think, remarked, you know, the people who ran Hollywood, 580 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: there were like six of them, the studio bosses, and 581 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 2: they were all Republicans, So it'd be very hard to 582 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: take control of the studios for a communist. But that 583 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: was what Reagan believed, and it certainly kind of radicalizing 584 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: him and helping him to move away from the Democratic Party, 585 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: although he still remained a Democrat in the forties. And 586 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: I think he really only made the transition to being 587 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: a Conservato across the board, including on economic issues, in 588 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties when he became a spokesman for GE 589 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: and you know, host of General Electric Theater. And I 590 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 2: think that was a tremendously influential period because GE in 591 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 2: those days was a very conservative company and they thought 592 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: that providing conservative materials to their employees, they saw that 593 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: as kind of an investment against the union troubles. They 594 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: thought this was how they would prevent strikes and union 595 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: organizing by preaching the gospel the free market basically, and 596 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 2: Reagan imbibed all of that. And you know, he was 597 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 2: doing these long cross country train rights because he was 598 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: afraid of flying in those days, so he would take 599 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 2: the train from LA to New York and he would 600 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: have a lot of time to read. And you know, 601 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 2: he was a charter subscriber to National Review, and you 602 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: know he was reading Human Events, he was reading Hyak, Whitaker, 603 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 2: Chambers and all this other stuff. And so he really 604 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 2: became a thorough going conservative, I think in the nineteen fifties, 605 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: but the process really began in the nineteen forties. 606 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: So I was fascinated the book by Tom Evans called 607 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: The Education of Ronald Reagan. 608 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a very useful book. 609 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd worked with Reagan. I first really met with 610 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: him in seventy four and obviously campaigned with him and 611 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: then served with him. I never fully understood how systematically 612 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: strategic he was until I read Evans' book and the 613 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: whole notion of what he called moving dm that if 614 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: you could get the American people to go with you, 615 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: their leadership had to follow, and had really explained a 616 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: great deal of what Reagan had done over the years. Now, 617 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: one of the great turning points, and I think totally unpredictable, 618 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: is that Goldwater basically get Reagan to give a speech 619 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: in October of sixty four as Goldwater is being drowned 620 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: by Johnson, and the speech, in a sense becomes more 621 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: important than the Goldwater campaign. Can you talk a little 622 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: bit about why did that happen and why was it 623 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 1: so impactful? 624 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 2: Well? Yes, but I mean I want to correct one 625 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: very small thing, because it wasn't Goldwater who got him 626 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 2: to give the speech. In fact, the Goldwater campaign was 627 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: quite resistant to Reagan giving that speech because they were 628 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: afraid that their candidate was going to be overshadowed by 629 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: Reagan and that Reagan would become the focus rather than Goldwater. 630 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: And it was really a bunch of the Republican donors 631 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 2: in LA who got together and put together the money 632 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 2: for Reagan to go on national TV and give this 633 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 2: half hour time for choosing speech on behalf of Goldwater. 634 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 2: And they had to really work on the Goldwater campaign, 635 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 2: and finally Bury Goldwater himself said okay, I'll give the 636 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 2: goal ahead. This makes sense to me. But it was 637 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: actually a selling job to get the Goldwater campaign to 638 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 2: do it. And I think part of that might have 639 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 2: been kind of the sense that Reagan was just, even 640 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: then in sixty four, when he'd never run for office, 641 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: he was actually a much more skilled orator and kind 642 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 2: of charismatic public figure than Barry Goldwater. And they campaign 643 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: together quite a bit, especially in California, and often. You know, 644 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: we were talking about this earlier with Ford, but it 645 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 2: was certainly true with Goldwater and Reagan in sixty four. 646 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 2: You know, people who heard them both on the stump 647 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: together would say, you know, gosh, I wish that Reagan 648 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,479 Speaker 2: guy was the candidate instead of Goldwater, because, as you remember, 649 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 2: Goldwater was kind of a very hard edged conservative. He 650 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: was not warm and Cudley he was kind of a 651 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 2: castro oil conservative who would say, you know, take it 652 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: my way or the highway. Here it is, here's my message, 653 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 2: and you know, if you don't like it, you know, 654 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 2: take a hike. And that wasn't Reagan at all. I 655 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 2: ran across a wonderful quote from Joe Alsop or one 656 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: of the other columnists in the nineteen sixties watching Reagan 657 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: speak in this period and talking about how the Reagan 658 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 2: personality was like soothing, warm bathwater. He basically delivered the 659 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 2: same message as Goldwater, but he made it go down 660 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 2: much easier. He had a much more winning way of 661 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 2: delivering that conservative message, and he certainly did that in 662 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 2: the time for choosing speech which was nationally televised like 663 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks before the sixty four and that 664 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 2: was later described as by David Broder and others as 665 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 2: being the most electric national political debut since William Jennings 666 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 2: Brian gave his Cross of gold speech. Goldwater, as we know, 667 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: went down in flames a few weeks later, but then 668 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 2: Conservatives and Republicans had a new champion, a new idol 669 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: to turn too, because Reagan was such an articulate champion 670 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 2: of their views. 671 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: I remember vividly that from that point on he was 672 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: a centerpiece. I followed in sixty five and sixty six's 673 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: campaign for governor and the whole emergency he ended up 674 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: I think it was in sixty five he ends up 675 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 1: in a television debate with Bobby Kennedy. 676 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and cleans the floor with him. 677 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: It was an insane debate as on foreign policy, and 678 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: you had to think either six or eight foreign students 679 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: asking questions that were inherently hostile to the United States, 680 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: And he have Kennedy who's torn because he really doesn't 681 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: want to be anti the student, but he really can't 682 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: be totally against the States, whereas Reagan's very comfortable. I 683 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: thought it was brilliant at the time. And supposedly Kennedy 684 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: turned and said to his staff afterwards, never ever again 685 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: put me on television with him, is impossible. 686 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, Robert Kennedy was discovering what everybody would discover before 687 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 2: along that Reagan was one of the great masters of 688 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 2: the TV medium, really unrivaled among presidents, and you took 689 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 2: him on at your peril. 690 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: What do you think of the lessons from Reagan's leadership 691 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: approach that could be applied today. 692 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think one big one, which we were discussing earlier, 693 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 2: is the need for pragmatism and for centrism and for compromise. 694 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 2: I mean, Reagan often expressed his contempt for conservatives who 695 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 2: want to go over the cliff with their flags flying, 696 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 2: and that was the wording that he used, and he 697 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 2: often talked about how he'd rather get eighty percent of 698 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 2: he one today and come back for more tomorrow, rather 699 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 2: than you know, it's just one hundred percent and get nothing. 700 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 2: He had a very sure grasp of the possible in politics, 701 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: you know, I think he sort of had freedom to 702 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 2: make deals with Democrats because Conservatives never doubted that he 703 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 2: was with them in his heart and ideologically, And I 704 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 2: think I gave him actually a lot of maneuver room 705 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 2: that politicians like Bob Dole or George H. W. Bush 706 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: they didn't have because conservatives are always suspicious of them, 707 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 2: but Reagan they loved, and so that gave them the 708 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 2: freedom to actually be pragmatic and do things that conservatives 709 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 2: were often very critical of at the time. When we 710 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 2: forget this, Reagan was often criticized. I mean I even 711 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 2: ran across some very funny quotes from a state senator 712 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 2: who was a member of the John Birs Society in California, 713 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: who was suggesting that Reagan was a Democratic plant, he 714 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 2: was a false flag operative, that he was there to 715 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 2: undermine the Republican Party because this senator was so upset 716 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 2: at some of Reagan's deviations from conservative orthodoxy. But I 717 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 2: think that's why he became a successful governor and president, 718 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 2: was able ultimately to win forty nine states in nineteen 719 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 2: eighty four, which today seems like science fiction. I mean, 720 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 2: imagine any politician winning forty nine states today. Reagan did 721 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 2: it because he was able to reach out and work 722 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 2: across part of and lines and not to take an 723 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 2: absolutist or narrow ideological approach. And I think that's something 724 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 2: we could use a lot more of across our politics today. 725 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: Thanks. I want to thank you for joining me. Your 726 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 1: new book, Reagan, His Life and Legends is an amazing read. 727 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: It's available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere, and 728 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: I strongly encourage our listeners who are fans of Ronald 729 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: Reagan to pick up a copy. They're going to learn 730 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: a lot about the man they never knew. And I 731 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: appreciate the hard work you've done. 732 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. It's really a pleasure to be 733 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 2: on with you. What a fascinating conversation. 734 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Max Boot. You can get 735 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, Reagan His Life 736 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: and Legend on our show page at neutworld dot com. 737 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: Neutworld is produced by Game of three sixty and iHeartMedia. 738 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 739 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 740 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Ginglish three sixty. If 741 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 742 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 1: Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give 743 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 744 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 745 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at ginglishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 746 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.