1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcasts, a weekly 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information, 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: And while I hope you love listening to and learning 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: from the podcast, it is not meant to be a 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, 10 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me for session sixty eight 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I'm excited to 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: share that the TBG store is now officially open for business, 13 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: so if you've been waiting to get your hands on 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: merch for the podcast as you can find it at 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash shop. For today's episode, 16 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: I'm joined by Jennie Hopgood to discuss healing after a miscarriage. 17 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Janet is a couple and family therapists, clinical sexologists, and 18 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: sexuality educator in the Philadelphia area. She's originally from Brooklyn, 19 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: New York, and holds two master's degrees. In marriage and 20 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: family therapy and human sexuality education. She is currently a 21 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: doctoral candidate at Widener University working on her dissertation for 22 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: a PhD in Human sexuality studies. Janet is also the 23 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: founder of the blog black angel Mom dot com, which 24 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: focuses on parinatal laws in the black community as well 25 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: as family creation. Her passions include working with lgbt Q 26 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: plus black couples, in individuals, parenting, family of origin issues, 27 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: fertility issues, film empowerment, processing, grief and lawss, black feminism, 28 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: racial justice, and healthy sexuality. Jane and I chatted about 29 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: some of the common challenges experienced after a miscarriage, how 30 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: miscarriages impact partnerships, how to support a loved one who's 31 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: had a miscarriage, and of course, she shared all of 32 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: her favorite books for you to learn more. If you 33 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: hear something you think others should hear while you're listening, 34 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: please share it on social media using the hashtag tv 35 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: G in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much 36 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: for joining us today, Janney, Thank you, thank you for 37 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: having me. Yeah, so I know you know. We talked 38 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: about um the statistics right of how often women actually 39 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: are struggling with miscarriages. So one in four pregnancies you mentioned, 40 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: actually we do end in miscarre So this is likely 41 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: an issue that lots of people know about and have experienced, 42 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: and sometimes even if they didn't know that they were pregnant, 43 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: right exactly, absolutely. Yeah, the statistics that I mentioned is 44 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: definitely for people who were aware that they were pregnant, 45 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: so that's what the reporting is about. But there's all 46 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: those people who may just have thought that they had 47 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: a late period um that actually were pregnant but lost 48 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: the pregnancy. So yeah, yeah, and so can you tell 49 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: me a little bit about what are some of the 50 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: common concerns or things that come up for women after 51 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: a miscarriage. Yeah, So, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders in general, 52 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: we sometimes refer to them as p mads. Um, they 53 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: come up for anyone who has um, or can come 54 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: up for anyone who has had any kind of child 55 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: or pregnancy or whatever. But definitely when there's a loss involved, 56 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of complicated. Um. So you're looking at the 57 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: grief stuff right of, like, oh my gosh, what's what's 58 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: going on with my body? What happened in the situation, 59 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: All the uh stages of grief as we could go 60 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: through them if we wanted to. But like, all those 61 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: same things happen for people who experience paran neatal laws. 62 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: And then things like anxiety and depression and irritability and 63 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: anger UM O c D you know, obsessive compulsive types 64 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: of UM disorders and and just behaviors UM even psychosis. 65 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: And you know where you're seeing or hearing things or 66 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: having delusions or just seeming kind of odd and out 67 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: of it and not like yourself. Um, all those things, 68 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: all those things show up. Disordered thinking, UM, sometimes people 69 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: feeling like they want to hurt themselves or other people, 70 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: suicidal ideation, all that kind of stuff UM comes up. Yeah, 71 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: and UM, can you talk more about like the O 72 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: c DPS, Like do you know why like O c 73 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: D type behaviors might be something that pops up afterwards. 74 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: Sure it's really about um wanting to be a perfectionist 75 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: to a degree of p. But who actually people who 76 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: have more perfectionistic type of characteristics and their regular personality 77 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: are more likely to developed forms of postpartum depression and 78 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: perinatal mood and anxiety disorders because things are not especially 79 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: also if you're related to if you're having a loss, 80 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,799 Speaker 1: right because things didn't go the way that you wanted 81 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: them to go. So then you become very hyper vigilant 82 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: and very focused on making things happen the way that 83 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: you want them to happen. So that can come out 84 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: as UM, excessive cleaning that can come out of your 85 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: space of yourself. That can come out as obsessive thoughts 86 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: or um, you know, just constantly ruminating over what happened 87 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: and what you could have done differently, or what you 88 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: would do next time, and who did what, and and 89 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: just not being able to get a handle on the 90 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: impulses or the thoughts that you're actually having UM as 91 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: a result of feeling really out of control. UM. So 92 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: then you're trying to kind of make up for that, 93 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: and your brain is trying to figure out your body too, 94 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: just trying to figure out, like, what the heck just 95 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: happened and how can we you know, correct that to 96 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: get through this distressing period? Right, And I can imagine um, 97 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: you know, and kind of listening to people's stories and 98 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: reading one of the common things that come up for 99 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: people is guilt, like is there something that I could 100 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: have done to avoid this? Um? So can you talk 101 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: more about that, because I'm sure you see a lot 102 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know there's this 103 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: though parenthood and motherhood is not for every person with 104 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: a vagina and a uterus, right, Like every person doesn't 105 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: want to do that. Our society tells us that that's 106 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: what a woman's role is. So there's all this messaging 107 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: that we get around. If you have these body parts, 108 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: then that means that you should be making babies, and 109 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: when you don't do that, it makes you question. Or 110 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: when you're not able to, or something comes up and 111 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: and you're able to maybe get pregnant, but then you 112 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: lose it, or you're able to go through almost your 113 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: entire pregnancy and the baby passes away or there's a 114 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: placental abruption or there's something that goes on with your body. 115 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: You then start to blame yourself, right, And that's again 116 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: part of like stages of grief and laws where you're 117 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what happened, and you're trying to 118 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: bargain and you're trying and you're always thinking about what 119 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: did I do? Or what if I had called the 120 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: doctor sooner, What if I had not lifted that heavy thing, 121 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: what if I hadn't had sex that day, or what 122 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: if I didn't eat that spicy tune a roll or something, 123 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like whatever, you start to 124 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: think about all these different things that you should have, 125 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: could have, would have done, and hopes that that would 126 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: make it different, that make the outcome different. So it's 127 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: kind of like, you know what happened, but you're struggling 128 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: with accepting that reality. And then you're feeling guilty because 129 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: in our messaging, our body is supposed to be able. 130 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: Our bodies are supposed to be be able to hold and 131 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: create life. So when it doesn't happen, it's kind of 132 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: throws everything off and you feel like it's something that 133 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: I did right, because like guilt is like I did 134 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: something bad, and shame is like I am bad. So 135 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: sometimes those two things interlock and overlap and all that, 136 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: but definitely people experience that, like I did something that 137 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: caused this thing to happen. And people also say horrible 138 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: things to people who have lost children. That don't think 139 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: that they always mean to say not so great things, 140 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: But people are always trying. Everyone's always trying to figure 141 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: out the why, and a lot of some of the 142 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: time you don't actually have a clear reason for what occurred, right, 143 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: I think probably the majority of time you don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 144 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: unless you get some extra testing or whatever, Like, you're 145 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: not necessarily gonna know what happened that resulted in this loss. 146 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: But people are always asking why, And there's all these 147 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: wives sales about what, um, you know, what you could 148 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: have done or didn't do, donate that spicy thing makes 149 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: don't lift that case of water is in your miscare, Like, 150 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: there's all these messages that come around that. So it 151 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: makes you feel again, how we're socialized is that I 152 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: must have caused this in some way because I should 153 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: have been able to do this, and the fact that 154 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: I wasn't or I'm not able to, or I lost 155 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: this pregnancy or whatever indicates that then I must be 156 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: I must have done something to make that happen. And 157 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: it's disordered thinking, but it's also you feel responsible, you know. 158 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: And I think you bring up a good point in 159 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: day about you know, like how society kind of grooms 160 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: us to believe that if you have these parts, that 161 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: this is what your body should be doing. Um. And 162 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,359 Speaker 1: I'm curious to know if there are any like cultural 163 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: kind of nuance that you want to add to the 164 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: conversation just related to black women, right, Like, does that 165 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: take the conversation even in a different direction because of 166 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: some of the cultural pieces of being black women. Absolutely, 167 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: I mean if you even I mean goodness, we have 168 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: been as black women. We have been mothering and raising 169 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: everyone forever, you know what I mean. Like, so that's 170 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: kind of, um, it's ingrained in us from the from 171 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: the womb almost. It's ingrained in us in the way 172 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: that we socialize our female body children, you know, like 173 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: we we socialize them to do things that are more 174 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: along the lines of homemaking and um, mothering and parenting 175 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: and things like that. So there's again there's all these 176 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: messages around this is what we do. We're about family, 177 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: We're about creating life. We're about taking care of little 178 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: people and raising them up. So I think that we 179 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: we we get that, um, we get that in generalised women, 180 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: but we definitely get that from a cultural perspective. UM. 181 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: And we get more questions sometimes about why we don't 182 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: have kids if we are older, or if we haven't 183 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: if we're in a relationship and we haven't created children 184 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: or whatever. We get a lot of that that line 185 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: of questioning like, well, what's what's going on? Then people 186 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: start with the other questions that are offensive, is heck, 187 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: you know, are you are you a lesbian? Are you this? 188 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: Are you that? Or you know? Whatever? That is not 189 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: asked from actually a place of curiosity, it's acts from 190 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: a place of shame. Right, So what kinds of strategies 191 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 1: or things do you do with your clients who are struggling, 192 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: maybe with a miscarriage or a steal birth? Um? And 193 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: and actually, let's back up, because are there some differences 194 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: like the healing process if it's a miscarriage versus a 195 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: loss later in pregnancy. UM, I mean there there's differences 196 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: in the sense that frankly, of what you might have 197 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: going out of the experience. So if you have an 198 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: early term miscarriage, then you're not gonna necessarily have ashes 199 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: or a funeral or you know, things like that. So 200 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: the tangible tangibility of what you might have is um 201 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: can be different, right, So you might be able to 202 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: do more things with a person who lost a child 203 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: or children later on in their pregnancy. UM. Like you 204 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: can do cremation, jewelry, you can have a memorial service 205 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: or a funeral, you can um, you know, visit grave 206 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: sites and things like that that you're not gonna necessarily 207 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: be able to do if if you had a miscarriage 208 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: at eight weeks or ten weeks or something like that. UM. 209 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: But in terms of the overall like healing process and 210 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: and care and the work that you do, it's not, um, 211 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: it's not entirely different given the time that you lost 212 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: your your little one. So you can do everything from 213 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: ultrasound pictures two UM, to visiting a grave site or 214 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: having a balloon release, which is not that great for 215 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: the environment, but you know, it happens, um doing a 216 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: balloon release or a lantern. You can do cremation jewelry. 217 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: You can do memorial tattoos, which is really really popular. 218 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: You can also do walks that are during perinatal Lost 219 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: Month or Infant Lost Month, which is in October, so 220 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: it's called one of them. In particular, it's called the 221 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: Walk to Remember, But it's basically, you know, a walk. 222 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: Look at any other walk like the March of Dimes 223 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: or whatever that is done to raise money for awareness 224 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: around perinatal loss. But basically, at seven pm across the world, 225 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: everyone likes a candle for their lost little one or 226 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: someone that they know who lost a child. So basically 227 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: it creates a continuous wave of light for twenty four 228 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: hours because it's done around the world. So little things 229 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 1: like that you can do to help memorialize and honor 230 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: your little one and and engage in rituals to remember them, 231 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: like maybe you want to remember their birthday, or maybe 232 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: you want to remember the day that you found out 233 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: that you were pregnant. You want to name them if 234 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: you haven't named them, giving your little one a name 235 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: is really important. In saying that out loud is really important, 236 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: and having people use that name when they address your 237 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: child is really important as well. It sounds like rituals 238 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 1: would be a part of your work, like helping your 239 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: clients maybe develop some kinds of rituals to memorialize and 240 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 1: remember in those kinds of things. What kinds of things 241 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: might you do specifically around some of the guilt or 242 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 1: some of the anxiety that might pop up after a miscarriage. Yeah, 243 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: reality testing, um, reality testing is really important, so you know, 244 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: asking is there evidence of this thing? So if you 245 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: say that you know, I'm a horrible person, my body 246 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: is dysfunctional or malfunctioning or whatever, which is something that 247 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: I've heard, you know, is how much evidence do you 248 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: have to support that? And you know, if you just 249 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: have this one thing that happened, even though it was 250 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: a huge thing. But if this is one thing that happens, 251 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: then you can't necessarily make a blanket statement about something. 252 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: So I do a lot of that kind of reframing 253 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: and um reality testing. Is there evidence of support that 254 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: this thing is going on in your life? Um? And 255 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: consistent evidence again, not just like one thing. Um. Also 256 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: just allowing space for people to say what they feel right, 257 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: because you can't. Everyone wants to fix everything, and it's 258 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: really it's not easy as a clinician or even as 259 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: a friend or whatever. It's to always hold space for 260 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: someone who is hurting because you don't want them to 261 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: be hurting. You want them to feel better. You want 262 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: to see what you can do to make it better. UM. 263 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: But sometimes, especially in circumstances like this, you just can't. 264 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: You can't change what happened. It happened, right, So but 265 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: I can sit here with you in this space. I 266 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: can acknowledge that that's how you're feeling about it, and 267 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: that your feelings are valid, and UM, you know I'm 268 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: gonna help you work through those feelings because it might 269 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: not necessarily be helpful for you to stay in that 270 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: place for a long time. But sometimes people just need 271 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: to get that out because nobody lets them say it, right, 272 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: Like nobody lets them be UM in that that space. 273 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: People always want to rush them to feeling better, and 274 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: it's it's a process, and there's no time limit on 275 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: your grief, like it's gonna it'll move. You'll move through 276 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: it when you're able to move through it. So allowing 277 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: space doing some you know, is there evidence of this 278 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: thing that is happening or is it just this one 279 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: instance that came up. Also self care, you know, self 280 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: care is very very very very important. Being kind to 281 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: yourself is also part of self care obviously, but actually 282 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: like using kind words and kind language towards yourself, So 283 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: saying things that are disparaging about your body and um, 284 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: about your abilities or whatever, in the long run, that 285 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: does a number on your self esteem and your self worth. 286 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: So doing a lot of reframing work and self care 287 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: work and positive affirmation work where we can is definitely 288 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: something I also do in session. And I think another 289 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: thing that likely comes up is UM probably some trepidation 290 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: and anxiety about like even trying to get pregnant again. 291 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: That's something that you see with your clients. Absolutely, people 292 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: are terrified. They're terrified because you've had now this horrible experience, right, 293 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: and then you're also like, so for some people it's 294 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: extremely painful. For some people maybe not as much. Some 295 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: people it's simply it's not simply, but for some people 296 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: it's just blood. For other people, they've gone through a 297 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: whole birth experience where maybe they needed an epidural, maybe 298 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: they needed for steps, maybe they had some kind of 299 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: traumatic birth situation. Um and so the trauma of the 300 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: loss is there, but then also the trauma of that 301 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: birth experience. And in some instances, some of these hospitals 302 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: in places they send you home. They'll say, okay, well 303 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: just go home and wait until you start to miscarry, 304 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: which is horrifying, right, Like, how like that's ter They 305 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: told they told me that, they said you can go 306 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: home if you want, And I was like, oh no, 307 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not going home, Like I'm terrified to 308 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: do that and be experiencing that on my own. Um. So, yeah, 309 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: people have had this horrifying thing happened. This very traumatic event, 310 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: maybe multiple traumas that have happened. The trauma of finding 311 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: out that you're gonna lose the pregnancy or the baby's 312 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: heart stop, or you had a placental abruption or you're 313 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: going into labor too soon or whatever, like you had 314 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: that that informational trauma. Then you've had the physical trauma 315 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: of whatever is happen, and then you have the actual loss, 316 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: like Okay, now this thing is, this period of my 317 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: life is over. So people are terrified, like it's it's 318 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: absolutely like it can absolutely be a post traumatic stress 319 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: type of situation where anything that comes up that is 320 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: related to that event is going to trigger you and 321 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: can cause all kinds of things grief, birst, anxiety, um, 322 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: grief versus just kind of like out of the blue. 323 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes there's a cause for there's a trigger like something 324 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: happened and then you just burst out in the tears. 325 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: And sometimes it's not. You could be just kind of 326 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: walking down the street and then all of a sudden 327 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: you're flooded with emotions and you break down. That is 328 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: very really common in people who have experienced peranatal loss. 329 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, all these things can can show up at 330 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: any given time. And then unlike some other traumatic situations 331 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: that where someone might develop something like post traumatic stress disorder, 332 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: they they may not have the exact experience again, right, 333 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: so they it might be certain things that trigger a 334 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: person feeling a stress response. In a normal situation dealing 335 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: with pardonato loss, you're literally doing the same things that 336 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: you just did, right, You're literally going to the same 337 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: maybe the same doctor. And even if you're not going 338 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: to the same doctor, you're doing the same type of things. 339 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: Your feet are still in the stirrups, you're still getting 340 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: your checks, you're still getting ultrasound pictures, you're still getting 341 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: blood work, you're still so you have all these constant 342 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,959 Speaker 1: environmental and physical triggers that make it really hard for 343 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: you to to even say, yeah, let me go down 344 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: that road again, exactly exactly. It's horrifying for folks. It's 345 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: horrifying for folks. And then sometimes they're really weighing out 346 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: what what wighs more, what's more important to me, me 347 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: trying to achieve this goal of being a parent, or 348 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: like my sanity, because I'm tripping right now, like trying 349 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: to go to this doctor, I'm tripping going past this 350 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: hospital where I know I gave birth and where I 351 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: had to leave my my my kids or whatever like that. 352 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: That's horrifying. So people definitely have some trouble um making 353 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: the decision to to try again and to continue again, 354 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: and also as disappointment, like you had this thing and 355 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: maybe you've maybe you've done a lot of work. A 356 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: lot of people there's a lot of people who need 357 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: assistance with fertility who do assistant reproductive technologies a r T. 358 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of people who need a little 359 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: help in that area. So if you've done all of 360 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: this stuff where you feel like you've done all the 361 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: right things, You've seen the right doctors, you have the 362 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: right blood work, you may have maybe you change your diet, 363 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: maybe you started working out more, maybe you decrease your 364 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: stress level, whatever. You try to do all these things 365 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: to prepare your body for this experience and then came 366 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: crashing down. That's like, hella disappointing, and do I want 367 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: to experience that level of disappointment again. And and on 368 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: top of that, the recognition that and a lot of 369 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: instances people people barely make it out of that. A 370 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: lot of relationships fail. Question like what is the impact 371 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: on you know, like relationships exactly, a lot of relationships 372 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 1: fail as a result of a child dying. And that's 373 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: even for you know, later in life. I'm not even 374 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: talking about perinatal loss, but just in general, like the 375 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 1: loss of a child, A lot of relationships don't survive 376 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: that because you have well I'll come back to that. 377 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: There's there's a lot of things around that. But um, 378 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: and also like individually, you may not like you may 379 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: have been at a place where you didn't want to 380 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: continue living, and that may have been the lowest point 381 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: that you've ever had in your life. Right, and like 382 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: I'm terrified to even go back there because what if, 383 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, God forbid this happens again? Then what? Right? Yeah, 384 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: so what kinds of things could you possibly do? I mean, 385 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: and you've already said right, like even as therapist, you know, 386 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: no matter your level of skill or whatever, like, some 387 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: stuff is just really rough and your only job is 388 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: to really be able to sit with a client through 389 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: some of this. Um, But what kinds of strategies are 390 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: things might you be able to do? Too? You know? 391 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: So let's say somebody says this was awful, but I 392 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: know in my heart that I really want to be 393 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: a parent, So I want to get to a place 394 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: where I can't try again. UM, what kinds of things 395 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: might you be able to do with them to kind 396 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: of work through the anxiety of like doctor's business and 397 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: all of this stuff to help them get in a 398 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: better place to be able to try again. UM, A 399 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: few things, So naming it right, like actually saying I'm scared, 400 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: Like it's okay for me to say that, for people 401 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: to say, like I'm I am nervous, as how about 402 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: going back to disappointment or trying this thing again, So 403 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: putting words to the feelings so that they're not just 404 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: kind of bottled up or boiling up and you and 405 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: festering and then you know, creating other problems down the 406 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: line with stress and and indigestion and whatever other things 407 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: can come up from holding things in. So actually like 408 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: using your words and saying this is this is really 409 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: scary for me. UM, taking a support person with you. 410 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: Try as often as you can to like bring bring 411 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: your partner two appointments, Bring a friend, bring a parent 412 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 1: or um, you know, just someone that you feel very 413 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: loved and supported by, bring them with you to the 414 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: appointment so that you're not doing it alone, and sometimes 415 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: that's challenging because you know when appointments are or how 416 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: often you may need to go, especially if you're doing 417 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,239 Speaker 1: fertility treatments. But as often as you can, try not 418 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: to be in the spaces by yourself. UM. Also thinking literally, 419 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: which I think I mentioned a little bit earlier, but 420 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: about what is kind of what's in your area of control, 421 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: like what can soil, really being very concrete about what 422 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: you can control and what you can't. Ultimately, none of 423 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: us can control the outcome of a pregnancy. We don't 424 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: know whether it's gonna stay or it's gonna not, like 425 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: you don't know. But what you can control is making 426 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: sure that you're getting two appointments, making sure you're doing 427 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: the right lietary things that you need to do, UM 428 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: just for health for yourself and for your child. UM. 429 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: Making sure that you have access to whatever support lines 430 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: are available. Some some doctors offices actually have or even 431 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: migwiffery services have UM like almost like a crisis call 432 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: line where you can call and just ask a quick 433 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: question or be seen very quickly, so like if you 434 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: just need if you're having some anxiety or something and 435 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: you are feeling like I don't know, it's too long 436 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: until my next ultrasound appointment or whatever. You can go 437 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: in and get a quick ultrasound like immediately. So finding 438 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: out what those what those services are that your particular 439 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: physician offers is also really helpful because again that's like 440 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: something that you can control. So then you know that 441 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: you have the supportive services in place. Thinking about what 442 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: what areas you may um sometimes you can actually use 443 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: the negative thoughts and the guilty thoughts that you were 444 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: having afore to inform what you do moving forward. Right, 445 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: So if if I felt that I had that something 446 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: was going wrong or whatever, and maybe I called the 447 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: doctor and maybe they dismissed me, well then you know 448 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: that moving forward, you might be a little bit more adamant, right, 449 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: Like you will say like I'm not no, you will 450 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: not dismiss me. I need to come in immediately. And 451 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: even if you come in and they're like, oh my god, 452 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: she's back again, back and back again, and everything's fine whatever, 453 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: but you know you went, you know what I mean? Like, 454 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: So just thinking about what is in your looks of 455 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: control too to address and to support and to help 456 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: reduce some anxiety. Also, self care of course is important 457 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: recognizing where some of your UM, some of your responses 458 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: are coming from. Like there, it's trauma related. So seek support. 459 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: Support groups, their support groups for people who are pregnant 460 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: with their rainbow babies, which rainbow is just the baby 461 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: that you have after the baby that you lost. There's 462 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: plenty of support groups that are out there for free 463 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: for that type of service. Finding out what supports exist 464 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: through your physicians office and UM, going to therapy, listening 465 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: to podcasts, you know, stuff like that that helps to 466 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: give you some information but also gives you some support 467 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: and a space for you to talk. Going on some 468 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: of the forums. There are forums particularly for people who 469 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: have UM, who's going through fertility issues UM, and they're 470 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: topics about everything pretty much. So Yeah, And I think 471 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: that's one of the like beauties and maybe sometimes curses 472 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: of the Internet, right because I think you can find 473 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: incredible spaces of support like the baby center boards and 474 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 1: all of those are incredible, UM, but I think they 475 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: can also increase anxiety sometimes, So I do want people 476 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 1: to be careful, like, yes, it can be support, but 477 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: also know your limits when you're kind of participating in 478 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: the forums. Yes, absolutely, because you will get a lot 479 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: of information and even just in general being in like 480 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: as a lost parent or angel parent myself. You know, 481 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: you I've experienced or heard or read or whatever people's 482 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: stories and I'm like, oh my god, like you know this, 483 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: like that didn't happen to me, but it's like wow, 484 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: there's so many things that can happen. And then of 485 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: course that also can raise your anxiety, so you know, 486 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: instead of you know, I think, use it for what 487 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: it's worth. Like you said, you know when to such 488 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: your limits and know when to you know, take a 489 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: break and consult with your actual physician about your situation, 490 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: not everything else that could possibly be great. That's a 491 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: great point. Yeah, And when you mentioned the whole thing 492 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: of like using your negative thoughts from the previous times 493 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: to kind of inform future decisions, it made me think 494 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: about like all the research and um stuff that we 495 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: probably already knew what was going on, but now their 496 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: numbers to support our experiences. UM in terms of you know, 497 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: like black women not being listened to by their doctors, 498 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes having to be more forceful and assertive 499 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: and saying, you know, like I know that this is 500 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: going on, this is my body. I want to be 501 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: checked out kind of thing. So I think that adds 502 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: to like some of the cultural since we were talking 503 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: about earlier to the Yeah. Absolutely, and have those conversations 504 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: upfront when you go see if you go to the 505 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: same doctor that you were seeing when you were pregnant before, 506 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: or if you choose someone new, be sure to have 507 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: that consultation and say like, hey, this is what happened before, 508 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: and this is what I did not appreciate. So I'm 509 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: looking for a practitioner or someone who's gonna be a 510 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: little more responsive. I mean I I changed doctors and 511 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 1: I had to say that to them, Like I was like, okay, listen, 512 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: here's the deal about what occurred. This is not what 513 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: I want. And that's how I found out about the 514 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: kind of the emergency um center where you can get 515 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: extra ultrasounds in between your appointments if you need to 516 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: check on things or whatever. Um so yeah, advocate for yourself. Yeah. 517 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: So I do want to go back to the relationship 518 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: piece that we touched on a little bit, because I 519 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: do think that will be important, um like just the 520 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: experience or the impact that this kind of experience has 521 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: on a couple or partnership. Yeah. So loss is hard, man, 522 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: I mean, loss is hard for for everyone, but and 523 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: lass is different for everyone, So everyone has a different 524 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: response to this kind of trauma. The person who was 525 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: pregnant has the physical body trauma response and of course 526 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: the grief and loss around that, and and they may 527 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: manifest that in a variety of ways. People who have 528 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: a uterus usually are a little bit more um emotional 529 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: and that they may cry more, they may go to 530 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: more places of depression UM and anxiety UM and sometimes 531 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,959 Speaker 1: some irritability as well. But those are kind of like 532 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: the typical things that show up in response to laws. 533 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: But if you are in a heterosexual relationship, though, sometimes 534 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: the male partner does not UM emote in the same 535 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: way UM. And so there's sometimes this discrepancy where people 536 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: are like, he doesn't care. It didn't affect him as 537 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: much as it affected me. Um, He's just focused on work, 538 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: or on hanging out with his friends, or on whatever else. 539 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: Besides whatever. The emotional piece is that the that the 540 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: female partner is experiencing UM. So sometimes well a lot 541 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: of times at least to a lot of fights, and 542 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,239 Speaker 1: in my experience, UM, it's a lot of like you 543 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: don't love the baby as much as I love them, 544 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: You didn't miss them. You don't miss them as much 545 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: as I miss them. You don't you don't really care, 546 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: or you just want to replace, you want you wanted 547 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: me to just get pregnant again, like right away, and 548 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: I'm still dealing with the grief and loss around that. 549 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: So there's this kind of comparison and you know, who 550 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: loves the baby more kind of thing, which just breeds 551 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,239 Speaker 1: a lot more fights and a lot more lack of 552 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: communication and misunderstandings and things like that. Um. Also, the 553 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: losses so can be so challenging that sometimes people just 554 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: don't talk about it period, right, Like they don't really 555 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: want to address it. So they're either going on about 556 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: their day as though it didn't really happen, or maybe 557 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: they are really emotional and having like emotional experiences, but 558 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: they're not actually communicating about like, man, like this just 559 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: happened to us, Like are you okay? Are you okay? 560 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: Like what do you what do you need? How can 561 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: we help? Um? Trying to find a sense of normalcy 562 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: after a loss is really challenging. And the fact is 563 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: like people try and get back to normal quote unquote, 564 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: but you you got a new normal now, like it's not. 565 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: Your life is not gonna look how it looked before 566 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: because you've had this traumatic event that has happened. And 567 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: I will put a caveat that. Everybody doesn't see a 568 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: miscarriage or a stillborn or a neon nate death as 569 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: um something traumatic. Actually, I will say more so for 570 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: a miscarriage. Sometimes people have them and it's not that 571 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: big a deal for them, just like anything else, you 572 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: know what I mean. Sometimes people have a trauma response 573 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: and sometimes people don't, but usually or more often than not, 574 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: people have some feelings about it when it occurs UM, 575 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: and it's it's important to acknowledge those feelings and to 576 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: talk about those feelings and to get some support um 577 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,239 Speaker 1: from a therapist or a counselor or if you know 578 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: your spiritual leader that's where you feel like going, like whatever, 579 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: it's important for you to have that extra level of 580 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: support and communication about it because you can't brush it 581 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: under the rug. So when couples decide to either turn 582 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: on each other because they're angry and don't know what 583 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: to do with that part of their grief, or they 584 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: turn away from each other in distress, instead of turning 585 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: towards each other's support, they turn away and they seek 586 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: support from outside sources, whether that's their friends or their 587 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: job or whatever, something to distract them from whatever happens 588 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: um or or they just become like really really contentious 589 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: with each other in their home environment. All those things 590 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: put a significant strain on their really aation ship. So 591 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: you got the person like that said, that has been pregnant, 592 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: that has the body trauma and the emotional response to it. 593 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: And then you as a person who witnessed all of that, right, 594 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: like the person who was there in the delivery room, 595 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: the person who was in the bathroom and saw all 596 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: the blood or saw you in so much pain, the 597 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: person who loves you and couldn't help you, and like 598 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: what that brings up for them in terms of their 599 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: own feelings of guilt and feelings of incompetence. I've heard 600 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: that so many times, and I feel like I couldn't 601 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: like I'm incompetent, I couldn't do anything to stop this, 602 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: So I didn't make a different decision earlier on that 603 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: maybe would have not had us be in this particular situation. 604 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: There's often uh, the person who is not pregnant is 605 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: often in a position of support and they want to 606 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: support and protect the person who is and when they 607 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: can't and they see the dismantling that occurs as a 608 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: result of paranatal loss, they are lost. They don't know 609 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: what to do and they don't know what to do 610 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: with the feelings around it because people also, um, I 611 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: have a one of my black posts earlier on was 612 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: about this, like, are they are they asking how you are? 613 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: Are they just asking you about how your partner is? 614 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: People always do that too. They totally dismissed that this 615 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: other partner has had an experience too, and though it 616 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: may look a little different, they were there, they had 617 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: the experience, They had a loss as well. They may 618 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: have had these dreams and hopes for their new identity 619 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: as a parent that now they don't have access to that, 620 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: and then they are It's disenfranchised in a way because 621 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: then people aren't even checking on them. They're just like, oh, 622 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: how so and so doing? I know you got, I'm 623 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: sorry for your loss. How she doing? And it's like, okay, 624 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: she's gonna through her stuff, but what about me? Like 625 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: I'm telling stuff too, So I'm glad you brought that up, 626 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: because I do think that that is often lost in 627 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: the conversations, right because so much of the focus is 628 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: on whoever was actually, you know, pregnant, UM, that we 629 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: don't often pay attention to the partners experience of the 630 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: loss as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it sounds like 631 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: in addition to individual therapy, sometimes couples therapy would be 632 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: a good option after a loss, as will. And it's like, 633 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: I think that is actually what you should be doing 634 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: because and people may need, you know, extra breakout sessions 635 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: or maybe want to continue ongoing individual But this happened 636 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: to the two of you if you're in a couple, 637 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,399 Speaker 1: It didn't just happen to the person who was pregnant, right, 638 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: So like, yeah, both should be in here, like you 639 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: to be in here talking about this and figuring out 640 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: how you can support each other and move forward, and 641 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: also allowing space for everyone to have their feelings, because 642 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: even though some of the feelings come from other people, 643 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: like people kind of invalidating the partner's experience, sometimes that 644 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: also comes from UM. Sometimes it also comes from the partner, 645 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: like the person who was pregnant, where they are just like, oh, 646 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: I'm feeling this thing, this is horrible, This happened to me, 647 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: and they're ignoring that their partner had variance, right, And 648 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: so you have the process and work through some of 649 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: that stuff is important. And I think the other thing 650 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: that people often UM. I know I've had listeners to 651 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: ask questions about like, Okay, one of my best friends 652 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: just had a miscarriage and I don't know what to 653 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: do or I don't know what to say. So what 654 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: suggestion would you have for like family and friends outside 655 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: of the partnership. Who wants to offer a supporter to 656 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: do something to be helpful? Listen? Listen, be willing to 657 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: hear the story. Um. There's a lot of healing and 658 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: people telling their story, so there's gotta be people to 659 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: who are willing to witness your grief is really what 660 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: it's It's called the term for it UM. So being 661 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: in a position where you're willing to hear what the 662 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: person has to say and all their feelings and not 663 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: being in the space of trying to correct it or 664 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: provide some saying that you think is helpful that might 665 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,439 Speaker 1: not be. You know, Like one of the things I've 666 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: I've heard so many times is UM and I think 667 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 1: it means well, And of course the image is sweet. 668 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 1: But like when they're like, oh that baby is Jesus 669 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: needed a baby for his garden, or that baby sitting 670 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: on Jesus. Laugh until you get it, Like that's that's 671 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: not helpful. I know you think it is, but it's 672 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: not because the people, I guarantee you, they prefer that 673 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: baby to be with them right right, like not picking 674 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 1: flowers in the garden in heaven somewhere, you know what 675 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,439 Speaker 1: I'm saying. Like that's so I think, like being trying, 676 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: Like there's a reason that we have two ears in 677 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,399 Speaker 1: one mouth, so like listen more than you speak. It's 678 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: like really really really important. UM, be willing to be 679 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: part of rituals if you if you need to, you know, 680 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: if they if that person asks you to be there 681 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: to hold their hand while they light their candles or 682 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: to um release a balloon for them, or to to 683 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: light a candle during the wave of light or whatever like, 684 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: be open to receive that um and to participate in 685 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: that um. Small things like well this is not small, 686 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: actually it's actually kind of big. But um, make dinner, 687 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: make dinner for somebody, bring go to the supermarket and 688 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: bring some groceries over the like the two days after 689 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: we had our loss, one of our one of my friends, Um, 690 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: I went to the supermarket and just like came to 691 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: our house with like ten bags of groceries. And it 692 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: was extreme, Like it wasn't something that I would have 693 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,720 Speaker 1: asked for, because people kept saying, do you need anything? 694 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: Let me know if you need anything, and I had 695 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,399 Speaker 1: had no words like I don't know what I need, 696 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: you know, um, But not having to worry about food 697 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: was an extremely, extremely helpful thing. Do somebody's laundry, come 698 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: wash some dishes, you know what I mean? Like I don't, 699 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. Say say the child's name right, asked, 700 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: asked them about them, asked if you're comfortable, and if 701 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: you don't put yourself in situations where you're not comfortable, 702 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 1: But if you are, let them show you pictures if 703 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: they want to, because that even though it may look 704 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 1: strange to you, because people are not used to seeing 705 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: children who are deceased or very early babies who are born. UM, 706 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: to them, that's beautiful. And they stare at those pictures 707 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: all time, probably and they look at them and they 708 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: want to show people, but they're scared because they don't 709 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: people to be offended their own people will be grossed out. 710 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,439 Speaker 1: They don't want people to be you know, offensive UM 711 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: in their response and in their language, so they hide 712 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: and they keep that part very separate. But they want 713 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: to show you most of the time, and they would 714 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,919 Speaker 1: love for someone to say, do you have pictures? Or 715 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: tell me about them, or tell me tell me what 716 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: what their names were, or you know, when's their birthday? 717 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: So if you can even this is kind of a 718 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: bigger thing, but in the age of social media you 719 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: might be able to do it very easily. But UM, 720 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: try and remember their birthday and just say, hey, I 721 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: was thinking of you. I know what's on those birthday today? 722 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: You know they that's that's important. UM. Holding space, holding 723 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: space being part of rituals, being a support person, offer 724 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: to to do something that helps memorialize their lost one. 725 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: Right like someone UM donated two trees in honor of 726 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,800 Speaker 1: our girls we had twins, Like a year ago, someone 727 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,879 Speaker 1: had two trees planet for them, beautiful, beautiful. Somebody else 728 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: got us cremation jewelry. So some of our of their 729 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: ashes are in UM two necklaces that I have in 730 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: a bracelet that my partner has, showing that you care 731 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: and that you understand that this was important to the 732 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 1: person and that you didn't forget. That's like the biggest thing. 733 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: People are so worried. Lost parents are so worried that 734 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,879 Speaker 1: people will forget that this happened to them and they'll 735 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: forget their little one, and that's terrifying and infuriating, right, So, like, 736 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: if you can show that you didn't forget and that 737 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: you care about them and you care about what happened 738 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: and you care about the story, that's always really helpful. Yeah, 739 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: lots of suggestions, they are, Jenny, So, what are some 740 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: of your favorite resources for people who want to read 741 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: more or learn more or find out where they can 742 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: get to support. What are some of your favorite resources 743 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: for that? Sure? So UM in terms of like infertility 744 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: and UM some laws related to that. I know I 745 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: use Resolve a lot UM. So resolved dot com is 746 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: like a forum place and like I said, it's a 747 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: topic for pretty much anything that you could ever think of. UM. 748 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: They have spaces there for people to to look things up. 749 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: UM Postpartum Support International so p s I is the organization, 750 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: but their website is Postpartum dot net. They have a 751 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: lot of resources UM for supportive services in whatever community. 752 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: Like there's a map so you can pick your state, 753 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: in your city or whatever and see who's available in 754 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: your area that specializes in this type of thing. UM. 755 00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: The Pregnancy Loss Directory UM that's from the is created 756 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: by the woman who did UM Return to Zero, which 757 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: is a film. It's on it's on Netflix if you 758 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,720 Speaker 1: haven't seen it, but it's about UM. It's about paranatal 759 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: loss and it's about a still birth and her experience. 760 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: But anyway, she has a directory of clinicians UM again 761 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,720 Speaker 1: by state that you can go to. UM. Two people 762 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: I met this week and or two works that I've 763 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: seen this this past UM. I was just at a 764 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,399 Speaker 1: conference for paranatal um mood and anxiety disorders. But one 765 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 1: book is called A Dark Secret and it's about women 766 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: of colors experiences with perinatal mood and anxiety disorders UM. 767 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes related to law, sometimes just related to postpartum stuff. 768 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: But that's really helpful UM written by a woman of color. 769 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: So great book. UM, check that out. UM. There's a 770 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: journal I also got that it's called Recovery State of 771 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: Mind and that UM. That is a journal also done 772 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: by a woman of color, that is is sponsored by 773 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 1: a project that deals with paranatal loss for women called 774 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: Shades Are Blue. UM. The this is a book that 775 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 1: is not done by people by a person of color, 776 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 1: but I found it really helpful in working with people 777 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 1: around grief and laws. There's a book called on Grief 778 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: and Grieving and it's UM It's by the author David Kessler, 779 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: but UM it really goes through grief and grieving in 780 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: the inner world of grief and the outer world of grief, 781 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: and it just really kind of helps you get a 782 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: better handle understanding on on what's happening for you in 783 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: terms of any kind of loss really, but it's obviously 784 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: applicable to paranatal loss as well. UM, so really helpful. UM. 785 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,439 Speaker 1: I had the Black Angel Mom blog and I also 786 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: have a closed Facebook support group called Black Angel Moms. 787 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: You can access that by clicking on the Facebook icon 788 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: on the blog. You'll take you right to the group 789 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: and you have to answer some questions in order to 790 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: get in. But that's a group that's exclusively for black 791 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,320 Speaker 1: moms who have experienced pernato loss. The Paranatal Mental Health 792 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: Alliance for Women of Color it's a division of p 793 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,439 Speaker 1: s I to Postponed Support International, but they it's it's 794 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: all women of color UM support people and professionals who 795 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: deal with paranortial laws, paranorial mood and anxiety disorders. UM. 796 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: There'll be a directory coming soon. So just some great 797 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: great stuff to find support UM in general and then 798 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 1: also some support like for us black women. Yeah, and 799 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: where can we find out more information about you and 800 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: your practice? Jenny sure? So my personal website is j 801 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: h J Therapy dot com. So it's just my initials UM. 802 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: So on their kind of talks about what what I do, 803 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 1: and you know, people wanted to contact me regarding working 804 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: together or coming to see me for session or whatever. 805 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: That adds all that information there. UM. And then you 806 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,359 Speaker 1: can also contact me through the Black angel Mom dot 807 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: com blog. There's a contact me page. But if you're 808 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: not really sure about whether you want to see someone yet, 809 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: but you really want to, like, just have some material 810 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,240 Speaker 1: to read about this stuff, have some things to share 811 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,839 Speaker 1: with your family and friends, because I tend to do 812 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 1: some posts about UM what's helpful and what's not? You know, 813 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: with some information that you you should know it could 814 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: be helpful for you in addition to just like process 815 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,839 Speaker 1: in general feelings. But that's UM that's available as well, 816 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,120 Speaker 1: so you can just browse and see what your life 817 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: show some people some stuff or comments or share or whatever. 818 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 1: Um So either j h J therapy dot com or 819 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 1: Black angel Mom dot com. Either way people can reach 820 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,319 Speaker 1: me sounds great. Well, Thank you so much for all 821 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,439 Speaker 1: of this information, Janie. I know it will be really 822 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: helpful for people. Yes, I am hoping so that is 823 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,439 Speaker 1: why I did it. It was so great to chat 824 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 1: with Jennie. One of the things I love most about 825 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,000 Speaker 1: the podcast is learning new things from my colleagues. Be 826 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: sure to check out the books she mentioned as well 827 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: as her blog. You can find this information in the 828 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,400 Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session, 829 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 1: and make sure to share this episode with two new 830 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 1: people in your life or share your takeaways in your 831 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 1: i G stories. Make sure to use the hashtag TBG 832 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: in session. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, 833 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 1: be sure to visit the therapist directory at Therapy for 834 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want 835 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,439 Speaker 1: to continue this conversation and join a community of other 836 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in 837 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: the thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com 838 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: slash tribe, make sure you answer the three questions that 839 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,719 Speaker 1: are asked to gain entry. Thanks again for joining me 840 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: this week, and I look forward to continuing this conversation 841 00:46:52,000 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take get care, p oftor, 842 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:38,760 Speaker 1: p oftor, p hotter, I, oft oftor p OFTTI