Speaker 1: Some of the content in this podcast may not be
Speaker 1: suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2: It's time for another episode of Patriots Dynasty doc Recap.
Speaker 2: As we do a wrap up show of the Patriots
Speaker 2: Dynasty documentary, Matt Smith along with Fred Kirsh Paul Perillo
Speaker 2: like to so it's episodes three and four.
Speaker 3: We've seen the.
Speaker 2: Patriots win their first Super Bowl, but before we get
Speaker 2: to them winning their first super Bowl, there was a
Speaker 2: look back at a coach that took them to their
Speaker 2: second super Bowl in franchise history. Fred, were you surprised
Speaker 2: when you saw Bill Parcell pop up on.
Speaker 4: News a little bit? Yeah, like, oh wow, they got
Speaker 4: Bill Parcell's you know, and that goes you know, they
Speaker 4: did a lot of work on this thing. It was
Speaker 4: good to see him, and I think that he got
Speaker 4: right to the point that they took away the draft
Speaker 4: to me and there was no way I was coming
Speaker 4: back to the Patriots. But you know, I think from
Speaker 4: a story storytelling standpoint, they wanted to go back and
Speaker 4: show you know, Crafts first go around with the team.
Speaker 4: It didn't end well with a great coach and it
Speaker 4: was a learning experience for Craft, but I thought that
Speaker 4: was really cool to see him on camera now, not
Speaker 4: back then, but now talking about it.
Speaker 2: And as the years have gone by, we've been led
Speaker 2: to believe that the border war is over. Right now,
Speaker 2: this is Darth Vader on the phone and everything's honky dorry.
Speaker 2: It really isn't honky dorry if you listen to what
Speaker 2: Bill Parcells is. I was not coming back as a
Speaker 2: Patriot once they took the draft away from it, right
Speaker 2: that was it.
Speaker 4: I was done.
Speaker 3: I thought this was kind of oddly placed. I didn't
Speaker 3: really feel like this had much of a place in
Speaker 3: the dynasty, understanding that the team itself, the players themselves,
Speaker 3: a lot of them were parcels guys that they come
Speaker 3: from those drafts. But you know, the Border war being
Speaker 3: over was that was after no I know this. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like so when Parcells says I wasn't coming back, that
Speaker 3: was in ninety seven. I'm saying didn't end until long.
Speaker 4: I know, But Parcells said it now, So you would
Speaker 4: think that, like throughout all this time, maybe he you know, because.
Speaker 3: This is what I don't like about it, That's what
Speaker 3: that's what you think. Parcells thinks he was right. Kraft
Speaker 3: thinks he was right, No, I know, but anything to
Speaker 3: do with the story. Really, I just thought it was odd.
Speaker 4: I know. But since then, like Parcells has said, you know,
Speaker 4: I did some things and he's kind of softened it.
Speaker 4: But in this documentary we're talking about that, he made
Speaker 4: no bones about it. I like that. I like that
Speaker 4: he you know, that was the case back then. Like
Speaker 4: now I've softened. I like Robert Kraft. Now we're friends,
Speaker 4: blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: But at that time they've moved on, ye all.
Speaker 4: But clearly he's not.
Speaker 3: He's not.
Speaker 4: He's not going back on that, and they took the
Speaker 4: draft away. That they took the draft away, and I
Speaker 4: like hearing that twenty four years later or more thirty
Speaker 4: years later, you know, that was that was cool.
Speaker 2: They took the draft away from me with somebody that
Speaker 2: didn't know what he was doing.
Speaker 4: He was very pointed, Well, it wasn't. He was not
Speaker 4: sorry talking about Robert Craft. He was talking about other people.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, they wasn't talking about Robert Craft.
Speaker 4: He was talking about Bobby probably Andy.
Speaker 3: Right, And he was right.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: It's funny to me though, because this is one of
Speaker 5: the great debates of like this, Bill Parcells belonging to
Speaker 5: the Patriots Hall of Fame. Is he part of the
Speaker 5: story of the dynasty, Well, as far as this document
Speaker 5: is concerned, yes, he is.
Speaker 4: They took the draft. Well, who drafted all those great guys?
Speaker 3: Probably think Bill Parcells.
Speaker 4: They didn't after they took it from him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, there aren't. Andy after he got the draft
Speaker 3: taken away from him. Terry Gleam was the only one
Speaker 3: who did anything. And would you get a year out
Speaker 3: of him? I mean, I mean the results speak for themselves.
Speaker 3: So so you know the tie laws, the Teddy Bruski's,
Speaker 3: those were all parcels.
Speaker 4: So they took one pick away from them.
Speaker 3: They took one draft away from him. That's it.
Speaker 4: They took one.
Speaker 3: Then he left, they took one, and then they had
Speaker 3: three years of terrible drafts.
Speaker 4: Well, let's not again.
Speaker 3: This is proving my point that it didn't belong to
Speaker 3: the story. It's useless.
Speaker 2: So, Paul, I'm gonna come back to you because I
Speaker 2: think one of the things that I heard you talk
Speaker 2: about that was impressive to you in this episode is
Speaker 2: Teddy Bruski really kind of defining from a culture standpoint,
Speaker 2: who will best embodied the patriot way and what was that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And he talked about Drew and his selfless attitude
Speaker 3: and sort of accepting as one hundred million dollar quarterback
Speaker 3: that it's not always going to work out for you,
Speaker 3: but you have to kind of do what's best for
Speaker 3: the team. And the thing that really stuck out to
Speaker 3: me is, obviously, I'm the Drew guy here on this panel,
Speaker 3: and I am not embarrassed by that. I wear that
Speaker 3: that proudly. I even as a Drew guy, had always
Speaker 3: sort of been under the impression Drew did what he
Speaker 3: had to do to get by and not upset the
Speaker 3: apple cart too much. I don't think it was perfect
Speaker 3: behind the scenes. I think Drew had his problems, but
Speaker 3: what Bruski is telling you is, considering the circumstances, he
Speaker 3: was pretty perfect behind the scenes, like he could have
Speaker 3: been an enormous disruption. And yes he was disappointed. Yes,
Speaker 3: earlier in in the in the in the I think
Speaker 3: one of episode one or two, he said, no, you know,
Speaker 3: the shins off the nickel, I'm going to get my
Speaker 3: job back now, right. So, yes, he always had that
Speaker 3: mindset and he wanted to play in the super Bowl,
Speaker 3: but he didn't destroy everything, and he could have.
Speaker 4: And you know, he did go to Robert Kraft and
Speaker 4: he did bitch to Robert Craft, and Robert Kraft went
Speaker 4: to Bill. So he did do that, But he could
Speaker 4: have made it a lot worse. Right, he could have
Speaker 4: made it a lot worse.
Speaker 3: I thought Bruski's comment like that was kind of the
Speaker 3: Patriot Way was born.
Speaker 1: Teams stunning first stunning to me.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, when you never point in Drew's direction,
Speaker 5: and when you talk about the Patriot Way, and I
Speaker 5: know that that's, you know, term that that some people like,
Speaker 5: some people don't. But for him to point to Drew,
Speaker 5: I just I found that incredible. And but but I
Speaker 5: think he was right, you know, and I had never
Speaker 5: heard that.
Speaker 1: No, neither did I.
Speaker 2: Right, And I will tell you, And they recount this,
Speaker 2: and Drew does a really good job of recounting it.
Speaker 2: I remember being outside of Belichick's office. We were told,
Speaker 2: have a crew outside of Belichick's office. He's going to
Speaker 2: make a decision. He's bringing Tom and Drew and he's
Speaker 2: going to inform the decision. And they both walk out.
Speaker 2: They both go their separate ways, and Drew was pissed,
Speaker 2: and he said he was pissed. What's interesting to me
Speaker 2: is with all the evidence that he had of how
Speaker 2: Tom had sort of taken over and they won all
Speaker 2: these games. I came into the SC Championship game. I
Speaker 2: studied the ship. We're here at the Super Bowl.
Speaker 3: Why aren't I the starter? And as he said, that.
Speaker 4: Was a bitter pill to swallow.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was I mean even during a flipping it over,
Speaker 5: I mean even during the game after they won the
Speaker 5: Super Bowl. That the footage of of Drew and Tom's
Speaker 5: interaction and you can just kind of feel that resignation
Speaker 5: and Drew of like, yes, I'm happy, I'm happy for
Speaker 5: the team.
Speaker 3: You're the man, Tom, You're the man twelve. You're the
Speaker 3: man twelve.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 2: There's another interesting thing that happened in that first Super
Speaker 2: Bowl that I think a lot of people enjoy here
Speaker 2: in New England. We saw bon Jovie talk about it,
Speaker 2: how we got chills in seeing the Patriots introduced as
Speaker 2: the team.
Speaker 4: Paul right.
Speaker 2: But I but that whole story of how it happened,
Speaker 2: I found is interesting because, as you guys know, because
Speaker 2: you were here, they did that periodically. I think they
Speaker 2: some people think they did it every single week during
Speaker 2: the two thousand and one season. It started when they lost.
Speaker 3: To the Big definitely did it in Cincinnati, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: and so.
Speaker 2: It became newsworthy because they did it on this stage.
Speaker 4: Right. And what did you think of that whole moment? Well,
Speaker 4: you know, remembering what it was like back then, I
Speaker 4: loved it. And I you have some insight on this.
Speaker 4: I thought it was a decision that the league was
Speaker 4: pushing them to go out as individuals, and they made
Speaker 4: a decision right there that no, no, no, we're not doing that.
Speaker 4: But you know more than I did.
Speaker 2: Well, I can just tell you what his perspective is
Speaker 2: in an interview that I did hit him. Bill Belichick
Speaker 2: in an interview with him in twenty sixteen, and he
Speaker 2: said the league came to him midweek and said, Bill,
Speaker 2: we need to know is it offense or defense that's
Speaker 2: coming out. We've got a minute thirty scripted in here
Speaker 2: for you to introduce a team. He goes, we need
Speaker 2: fifteen seconds. We're going out as a team. And the
Speaker 2: person the legal I don't think you understand. This is
Speaker 2: the Super Bowl and you have to designate whether you
Speaker 2: want your offense or defense to go out. And Bill goes,
Speaker 2: I don't think you understand it. You can do whatever
Speaker 2: you want. We're going out as a team, and we
Speaker 2: need fifteen seconds and Bill was the one. Now was
Speaker 2: that not communicated to Teddy Bruski because Bruski seemed surprised
Speaker 2: in the documentary when he goes I heard a scream
Speaker 2: in the back. Teddy's got a nice flare for the
Speaker 2: dramatic too. I heard a scream come from behind and say, no,
Speaker 2: we're going out as a team. And it just sort
Speaker 2: of really romanticized the whole thing, which I thought was good.
Speaker 2: But I think they knew they were going out as
Speaker 2: a team on Wednesday. If it's the latest, Yeah, I like,
Speaker 2: who knows, Like obviously you know what you know. But
Speaker 2: maybe Bruske didn't. Maybe they were hearing, Oh, the league's
Speaker 2: gonna make us go out as individuals. We want to
Speaker 2: we don't want to do that.
Speaker 4: Maybe up until that point the team wasn't or at
Speaker 4: least Bruski wasn't sure that they were gonna be able
Speaker 4: to do it. And then he heard that and it
Speaker 4: was like, Oh, we're going at it as a team,
Speaker 4: you know. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think there's another edite team to get.
Speaker 4: Teddy Bruski on one of the later wrap up shows and.
Speaker 3: Ask him, right.
Speaker 2: I think there's another entity that was played here, and
Speaker 2: that's television because Fox did the game that might have
Speaker 2: been Fox's first Super Bowl by the way, and they're
Speaker 2: used to this is going to be a big show.
Speaker 2: We're going to introduce these guys individually, and they were saying, no,
Speaker 2: not as a team. This is boring. It's not as exciting.
Speaker 2: We want ray Lewis dancing out into the center. We
Speaker 2: want Marshall Foch doing all that stuff. You guys remember
Speaker 2: Gary Gridecci. I think Gary Gridecky who was on the
Speaker 2: field in that position. They were scrambling still a little
Speaker 2: bit like the league still at the at the eleventh
Speaker 2: hour was pushing no, you guys need to be and.
Speaker 4: That might have been part of it, like the players
Speaker 4: weren't sure that we were going to be able to
Speaker 4: still do it. They were going to force us to
Speaker 4: do it, but they they stood true and I love that.
Speaker 4: I mean, I hope they never give that up. You know,
Speaker 4: I know we have a new regime here and it's drawed,
Speaker 4: and you know, maybe they look at it an opportunity
Speaker 4: to redoce some things and change the way they get it.
Speaker 2: I hope they they continue to come out as a team. Right,
Speaker 2: you're watching and listening to Patriots Dynasty doc recap. As
Speaker 2: we're talking about the Patriots Dynasty documentary, and as they
Speaker 2: end episode three, super Bowl thirty eight is kind of
Speaker 2: an aftermath. They show a field goal maybe oh yeah,
Speaker 2: they want to.
Speaker 3: Right thousand check out podcast.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that they spend a little bit more time
Speaker 2: on super Bowl thirty nine, but they use super Bowl
Speaker 2: thirty nine the way well, but they use that to
Speaker 2: say that here's where the addiction comes into play, and
Speaker 2: that both Pioli and Bruski Mike talk about the narcotic
Speaker 2: of winning and how you'll do almost anything to win,
Speaker 2: which Matt Hamat checked. The director and the Dynasty team
Speaker 2: do a very good job of a cliffhanger because where
Speaker 2: they're going for episode for well.
Speaker 5: They're going to Spygate and the Lean Years, the ten
Speaker 5: year Lean Years. I was surprised, I mean, the twenty
Speaker 5: one game win streak, you know, just I don't know.
Speaker 5: I think that that point could have been made a
Speaker 5: little bit better about what kind of made this team special,
Speaker 5: because especially you know, coming off this two thousand and
Speaker 5: three stuff that that I did, that we all did that,
Speaker 5: you know, celebrating twenty years of that season. You know,
Speaker 5: you remember how special those teams were. And I think
Speaker 5: that that's just, you know, something that's getting kind of
Speaker 5: left in the wash because we're trying to tell a
Speaker 5: bigger story here.
Speaker 1: You know, we're trying to tell Like you said, Matt,
Speaker 1: this was not about who these teams kind of were.
Speaker 5: This was about the bigger picture of how this team
Speaker 5: began to view the league and how the league began
Speaker 5: to view them, and what kind of came to transpire
Speaker 5: a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2: Fred, what I mean, so my kid on that, if
Speaker 2: you're a football purist, this might be that's not Matt
Speaker 2: Hammichick's style in this. Yeah, Matt Hammachick's style in this
Speaker 2: is to accentuate the drama the director. Yeah, but there
Speaker 2: was drama that they overlooked.
Speaker 3: I totally agree, Fred, this is a big miss to me.
Speaker 3: They missed a lot of drumas they missed.
Speaker 1: Harrison Maloy.
Speaker 3: Harrison Maloy, the cutting his hands. Brian Kinchin, do you
Speaker 3: remember how much tension there was going into that Super Bowl?
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, I mean this team hates their coach with
Speaker 4: Tom Jackson, hunts, you know, all that stuff. They they
Speaker 4: I get it, you only have so much time you
Speaker 4: have to make editorial choices.
Speaker 3: But that was a big thing. I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 3: The Lawyer Malloy thing alone could have been fifteen minutes.
Speaker 3: I mean, that was an enormous thing. Tom Brady. So
Speaker 3: we come off of a couple of episodes where Tom
Speaker 3: Brady's explaining how he went to quarterback school with the
Speaker 3: head coach and how instrumental the two were. The next year,
Speaker 3: he's growing a beard in protest of his coach. They
Speaker 3: boycotted the coach to the point where Tom Jackson is
Speaker 3: saying they hate him. Right, drama nothing, Yeah, we got
Speaker 3: nothing on that. So we can set up spygate. And
Speaker 3: I'm not saying they shouldn't have done spygate.
Speaker 4: Well they should have done twelve episodes. Well that's what
Speaker 4: I mean. They won.
Speaker 3: I don't even think it has to be just a
Speaker 3: football purist. They won twenty one games in a row.
Speaker 3: It was it's a record, right, and we don't even
Speaker 3: hear it. They didn't even mention it.
Speaker 2: So the underbelly of This Dynasty comes into full fruition
Speaker 2: in episode four and it's Spygate. Well, Fred, how did
Speaker 2: you think that they handled that?
Speaker 4: I thought they did a good job. I mean, if
Speaker 4: you're looking for like stuff that you didn't know before,
Speaker 4: you're not going to get it. Like Ernie Adams, they
Speaker 4: interview him, He's not going to tell you anything. Bill's
Speaker 4: not going to tell you anything, you know. And I
Speaker 4: think there's a lot of people that they didn't talk
Speaker 4: to that we think maybe they should have such as well,
Speaker 4: like they didn't talk to Bears Nazarian, who is right
Speaker 4: by Bill. They didn't talk to any of the video people,
Speaker 4: you know, they you know, like there's a lot of
Speaker 4: people that were involved that they didn't talk to. And players,
Speaker 4: Like what did you guys think about all this? Brady? Brady,
Speaker 4: maybe they asked him and he refused to answer, and
Speaker 4: they didn't put it.
Speaker 2: In, but they not sure they got the Belichick question
Speaker 2: and to ask him.
Speaker 4: They didn't have not one comment from Brady on Spygate.
Speaker 3: You have one more guy, yeah, Eric Mangini, Yeah, Like
Speaker 3: how do we not hear from him? You know, this
Speaker 3: is another part I'm sort of I went in with
Speaker 3: kind of modest expectations of the whole project, and then
Speaker 3: was really encouraged the way it started. And I'm sort
Speaker 3: of kind of declining here as we get further along.
Speaker 3: And this is one of the things you said it, Fred,
Speaker 3: did you learn anything? Nope? And I don't think someone
Speaker 3: you know, Johnny Appleseed and des Moin and Iowa didn't
Speaker 3: learn anything about spot Well no, but this spygate that
Speaker 3: they gave us is stuff that absolutely everybody knows.
Speaker 4: But but well you say that, but and we're in it.
Speaker 4: But there's a lot of people who were just becoming
Speaker 4: NFL fans, are very casual fans of the time that
Speaker 4: I think will find, you know, this episode intriguing.
Speaker 3: Well, but that's a history lesson for someone who didn't
Speaker 3: experience it. I'm saying, someone who experienced the NFL, I
Speaker 3: know six knows everything that they But I think.
Speaker 4: You know, again, the craft of this I think did
Speaker 4: a really really good job here, you know, starting out
Speaker 4: with that cop from New York who was at the
Speaker 4: meadowlands that day and inclusion, I really do why Well,
Speaker 4: he starts off by talking about how he was undercover
Speaker 4: with the mob and you know for many, many years
Speaker 4: and even though you're with all these bad guys, you
Speaker 4: had to betray them. That was your job. And even
Speaker 4: then it made him feel bad, you know, like I
Speaker 4: had to get out, Like I just didn't feel good
Speaker 4: about myself because of all the betrayal I had to do. Okay,
Speaker 4: why are we talking about this? Well, now you find
Speaker 4: out later on when the Manginie part of the story
Speaker 4: comes up, and it's very clear that Ernie Adams and
Speaker 4: other people in the organization felt that Manginie betrayed them.
Speaker 4: He ratted them out. Who said, had somebody used those
Speaker 4: words peoli?
Speaker 3: I think, when you leave, don't don't don't make a mess.
Speaker 3: Don't make a mess. It's family. It's family, when you leave,
Speaker 3: don't make a mess.
Speaker 4: And so that's why I thought tying in that cop
Speaker 4: story made sense to me.
Speaker 3: Only if you're going to talk to Mangini. Well, otherwise
Speaker 3: maybe they tried, but then you should say something you
Speaker 3: like to acknowledge it somehow.
Speaker 4: That's they weren't doing those editorial notes. That wasn't the.
Speaker 3: Style, you know, thinks.
Speaker 4: But you know the other thing that they didn't really
Speaker 4: touch on that we know is that Mangini went to
Speaker 4: the Jets and just that mere action said that he
Speaker 4: was a trader like you could go anywhere in the world.
Speaker 4: But at that time and probably still to this day,
Speaker 4: but especially Bill hated the Jets by the way they
Speaker 4: talked about him on the way out of New York.
Speaker 4: And you want to talk about border war, there was
Speaker 4: a huge border war with the Patriots and the Jets,
Speaker 4: even after Parcels left there. And the fact that Marginie
Speaker 4: left here for any other team would have been okay,
Speaker 4: but he went to the Jets and that really pissed
Speaker 4: Bill off. And then he does this.
Speaker 2: That was his first mistake, just take accepting that job.
Speaker 4: Right, And then he does this, and as Ernie Adams said,
Speaker 4: and I don't feel I'm taking all the oxygen out
Speaker 4: of the room. But as Ernie Adams said, we weren't
Speaker 4: doing anything that anyone else wasn't doing. We just did
Speaker 4: it in a different way, in a better way. And
Speaker 4: I know people were videotaping us.
Speaker 2: Ernie said that, Mike, were you surprised at how you know?
Speaker 2: Ernie said, he said, look, some of you shing you
Speaker 2: have to take to their grave, right. But seconds later
Speaker 2: in the documentary he sort of justified the act. Were
Speaker 2: you surprised by.
Speaker 5: That, No, because I still felt like kind of pauled it,
Speaker 5: like I don't gel like we're dancing around it. And
Speaker 5: I still, you know, and again as a fan who
Speaker 5: really was I don't know what the word would be.
Speaker 1: I was devastated when this all happened.
Speaker 5: Like I was, you know, a sky high Patriots fan
Speaker 5: at the time, and oh my gosh, I'm so excited
Speaker 5: for this season, and you know, to be to be
Speaker 5: totally frank watching these first four episodes, the first two,
Speaker 5: it was a reminder of what a joy and a
Speaker 5: thrill it was early on. And the Spygate episode was
Speaker 5: a reminder of some of the crap that you put
Speaker 5: up with as a fan that you didn't really want
Speaker 5: to be defending the wall or having to say everyone,
Speaker 5: your team's a cheater, your team's a cheater.
Speaker 1: It sucked. It sucked as a Patriots fan.
Speaker 5: And and I'll tell you I was online fighting the
Speaker 5: good fight just like a lot of people were. So
Speaker 5: I was a little bit disappointing. I think what I
Speaker 5: would always love to hear, and I would love to
Speaker 5: hear just Ernie Adams, what do you do? What do
Speaker 5: you do with this footage, Like, you know, I would
Speaker 5: really like to know just what do you do?
Speaker 3: What is the point?
Speaker 1: And I mean, I think the thing that I always
Speaker 1: got to is that you know, they're trying to bake teams.
Speaker 1: Note we're doing this.
Speaker 5: You have to change your signals and you're constantly putting
Speaker 5: another team on. I never really bought that, like in
Speaker 5: game they were doing it. But I'm still wondering the
Speaker 5: same exact things I was wondering in two thousand and
Speaker 5: seven as to why you would do this and was
Speaker 5: it widespread and taping or you know, what was everybody doing?
Speaker 5: Like what you know what I mean, like what was
Speaker 5: the exact mechanism that all these teams were playing for?
Speaker 4: This was probably a hobby, yeah, oh, I know, probably
Speaker 4: like a game for him, right, like we're screwing with
Speaker 4: other teams.
Speaker 5: We're making it hard on them. They know we're doing it.
Speaker 5: They're kind of doing it too, like you know, I
Speaker 5: just I don't think anyone can as ever explained.
Speaker 4: He's like bringing in the Native Americans in World War
Speaker 4: two and deciphering the Japanese codes. You know, yeah, just
Speaker 4: like that, you know, But for Ernie, it was like
Speaker 4: this was fun for.
Speaker 3: Him, So I guess I would. I would sort of
Speaker 3: summarize my thoughts on these two, you know, like so
Speaker 3: because of the controversies, which was so juicy, we had
Speaker 3: to gloss over two titles in a twenty one game
Speaker 3: winning streak, not to mention other drama that Fred talked about,
Speaker 3: and you give us nothing like okay, so you didn't
Speaker 3: get Mangini. How about Mike Tannembaum. How about somebody who
Speaker 3: can offer me some sort of perspective as to why
Speaker 3: and how this happened instead of I'm going to take
Speaker 3: it to my grave and I already talked about that
Speaker 3: in the past. That's the comments you got from the
Speaker 3: Patriots on the record I'm taking it to my grave,
Speaker 3: from Ernie, Adams and Belichick telling you I've already talked
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 2: I do think Ernie just to add one thing, and
Speaker 2: I think Ernie justified it that everybody was doing it.
Speaker 3: But that's what they said then. I know that it
Speaker 3: was done to us. I don't remember him. I don't
Speaker 3: remember him saying I'll take it to my grave then,
Speaker 3: but they said everybody else is doing it, I was
Speaker 3: saying it.
Speaker 2: I do think they also that the the people who
Speaker 2: put the document together. Fred talked a couple of times
Speaker 2: here about the craft c R A f t of
Speaker 2: putting this together. And I thought some of the audio
Speaker 2: montages that they did where you heard national voices, sometimes recognizable.
Speaker 3: Sometimes locals.
Speaker 2: Spygate one was really good. Those were really, really well done.
Speaker 2: It wasn't you know whoever saying these guys are cheaters.
Speaker 2: It was the national media talking at wit about these
Speaker 2: guys they're cheaters.
Speaker 3: My favorite ones just.
Speaker 2: Credit what they're doing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Fox one one Bradshaws, like you know, and
Speaker 3: this calls into question Jimmy Johnson's at the.
Speaker 4: End, Well forget I didn't use this one, but Scott
Speaker 4: Pelley at the time anchored the CBS Evening News, and
Speaker 4: I'll never forget listening to him. Are the New England
Speaker 4: Patriots cheaters?
Speaker 5: He led off to broadcast with that different scamp. Okay,
Speaker 5: you know, I was gonna say, Paul, just a piggyback
Speaker 5: on what you said. The the Jimmy Johnson thing with
Speaker 5: with Terry Bradshaw was a great cut I thought was
Speaker 5: they went back and they showed Bradshaw next to Bill
Speaker 5: to one of the Super.
Speaker 1: Bowls and kind of hugging him, and.
Speaker 5: I just thought that was a great, great cut, great
Speaker 5: you know, just illustration of how things it's said exactly
Speaker 5: what they were trying to say. They went from the darlings,
Speaker 5: the underdogs, the you know, the sweethearts of the NFL,
Speaker 5: to now the villains and uh.
Speaker 2: Next level nerd and next level nerd my excellent observation.
Speaker 2: One of the thing that I remember at the time,
Speaker 2: the big deal that was the armand Katayan interview. Oh wow,
Speaker 2: armand Katayan is gonna sit down and talk with Bill.
Speaker 2: This is the one time. And I remember at the
Speaker 2: time thinking, gee, I don't think there was really much there.
Speaker 2: I thought Katayan did a really good job holding his
Speaker 2: feet to the fire. I think he did to His
Speaker 2: questions were really solid.
Speaker 4: Yeah he didn't and he didn't let him go. No,
Speaker 4: you know, he wouldn't, you know, he pushed back.
Speaker 3: I think he did it both be true, there wasn't
Speaker 3: much there because Bill as always does a great job
Speaker 3: of just giving you the farm stiff arm but Army
Speaker 3: Katayan asked every relevant question you could ask, right, And.
Speaker 2: I think for Patriot fans that were fans during that period,
Speaker 2: or people who were new uh to the fandom watching
Speaker 2: that interview, and they ran a considerable amount of it
Speaker 2: in episode four. I think that that's pretty, you know,
Speaker 2: very very interesting use.
Speaker 4: Of that old footage.
Speaker 3: I thought that was terrific.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so what was the reaction to Spygate. You know,
Speaker 2: the national media has labeled the team as cheaters, and
Speaker 2: the documentarians did, in my opinion, an excellent job of
Speaker 2: introducing the guy that was gonna make it all go away,
Speaker 2: and that was Randy Moss. Fred What did you think
Speaker 2: is all that?
Speaker 4: I thought that was one of the most dramatic moments
Speaker 4: of the first four episodes. First four episodes is when
Speaker 4: they said, you know, we needed that, you know guy
Speaker 4: that would I forget the exact word that opened up
Speaker 4: the field, that playmaker. And then they pan over and
Speaker 4: it's just Randy Moss looking into the camera and it's like,
Speaker 4: you got chills because you know what happened immediately on
Speaker 4: this team when he came on it.
Speaker 3: So I looked at it in it was It was
Speaker 3: an interesting because when when they're giving you all those
Speaker 3: collages of all the national people kicking the crap out
Speaker 3: of Belichick in particular, but the Patriots to Mike's point
Speaker 3: of that's where the defending the wall started. You know,
Speaker 3: Michael Holly, who's you know, been around forever and very
Speaker 3: been very close to his team. He says the rules
Speaker 3: don't apply to them. Yeah, and I think Bill looked
Speaker 3: at and said, yeah, f you right way. Do you
Speaker 3: see what we got for you next year? And that's
Speaker 3: where this panning of to Moss comes from, And like
Speaker 3: you get like a peek inside of what must have
Speaker 3: been going on in Bill's minds, like, oh, oh, we
Speaker 3: have to cheat to do this. Wait, do you see
Speaker 3: what we're going on you this year?
Speaker 4: And I wrote down when I was what they went
Speaker 4: to war they went.
Speaker 2: To and the recreation of the deal Mike, where they
Speaker 2: went back and forth with Moss and Belichick. And we've
Speaker 2: talked earlier that it doesn't look like maybe this was
Speaker 2: the most important thing on Bill's dance card at the
Speaker 2: time to do this interview. But I think you saw
Speaker 2: a little glimpse of he actually enjoyed talking about how
Speaker 2: that deal went down.
Speaker 1: I mean, give me more Randy Moss and Bill Belichick,
Speaker 1: Like can they.
Speaker 3: Do a sitcom together?
Speaker 5: I mean, anytime in history there's been interactions of those
Speaker 5: two guys. It's hilarious and I mean it's Randy, but
Speaker 5: I thought that was one of the times that Bill,
Speaker 5: you know, opened up a little bit, was a little
Speaker 5: bit of storyteller Bill, And I mean just you know,
Speaker 5: for me again as a fan, remember Sonny McClain's Santa
Speaker 5: Monica bar watching Week one against the Jets, in that
Speaker 5: first play that Randy talked about where.
Speaker 1: Me and Paula are looking at each other doing that.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, I mean it was you know, it
Speaker 5: was it was so exciting, and I mean it's just
Speaker 5: it just brings me back.
Speaker 1: As a fan to what a season that was.
Speaker 5: I mean, everything good, everything bad. It was like you
Speaker 5: just can't even really explain it. You know, every week
Speaker 5: they're hanging fifty points on teams. You know, I remember
Speaker 5: like them talking about all the Bengals can take, you know,
Speaker 5: like each week you.
Speaker 1: Kind of talk yourself into one team.
Speaker 5: But I I I thought they did a good job,
Speaker 5: you know, just capturing the the f you mentality of that.
Speaker 3: I loved. I loved Moss's comment about family. You know,
Speaker 3: that was something that was really looking for. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: that was something I was really looking for. And then
Speaker 3: just an assault you're talking about, you know, Sonny McLean's
Speaker 3: just selfishly. Those are big show days for me. Those
Speaker 3: were ei days with Glenn Woodway and that crew, and
Speaker 3: I would go in and like you, I don't know,
Speaker 3: like I don't know why they're running up to score
Speaker 3: every week. I mean, it's just seemed like Joe Gibbs,
Speaker 3: you know, a guy three Super Bowls were running up
Speaker 3: the score every week, and I was just what do
Speaker 3: he was soccer mom, That's what they used to call me,
Speaker 3: the soccer man. Like, they're not running up the score.
Speaker 3: You gotta stop. Oh, oh contraire because Teddy Brusky comes
Speaker 3: in and tells you flat out we were running up
Speaker 3: the score and why because bb was pissed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was really insightful. I like war comment lest
Speaker 2: anyone think differently as to what they were doing. I
Speaker 2: thought Bruskie yieled it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And the other thing I thought that was pretty poignant
Speaker 4: was how the team thought about Bill. Bill was getting
Speaker 4: his ass kicked. Yep, they were kicking the crap out
Speaker 4: of him, you know, from weft coast to West coast,
Speaker 4: you know, uh, they were, they were killing him. But
Speaker 4: the team rallied around him. And he was ours, he's ours.
Speaker 3: How do we feel about playing for Bill Belichick? Robert
Speaker 3: was one of the ours.
Speaker 2: Right, And Robert Craft also accentuated that by you know,
Speaker 2: Moss talked about family and how we mentioned that to
Speaker 2: Robert Craft, and Craft himself said, we were here. We
Speaker 2: were here to protect Bill's reputation, and we wanted to
Speaker 2: protect Bill's reputation and that's why, Hey, find me, find him,
Speaker 2: don't you have to do. Don't suspend him.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're gonna rally around him and we're gonna protect
Speaker 3: him on this. Yeah, and the team did right, so
Speaker 3: like crazy, and then back to the you know, like
Speaker 3: the way that season unfolded, and it was early on
Speaker 3: when they just started laying waste to everybody, right, I
Speaker 3: was thirty eight, fourteen thirty. They were averaging again, you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: well like ten weeks into the season, they were averaging
Speaker 3: forty four points a game, not like three weeks in,
Speaker 3: you know, and you started saying, this team can go undefeated.
Speaker 3: And it was about halfway through. You know, Andy Hart,
Speaker 3: who used to work with us, was before that.
Speaker 4: We were doing the show in here and ESPN was
Speaker 4: on the monitor, and all of a sudden the scroll
Speaker 4: and there was a tab for Paige.
Speaker 3: Patriots undefeated and real ticker. Wow.
Speaker 1: They got their own tab.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 3: So we start country. We start talking like that, right,
Speaker 3: and we're talking in those terms, and you're like, well,
Speaker 3: I wonder what the tea What was the team thinking?
Speaker 3: They started playing another one Bite to the Dust in
Speaker 3: the locker room, which was phenomen after after games, more
Speaker 3: great footage. Oh yeah, you know with Teddy going over,
Speaker 3: you know, and we had heard it, Fred, you and
Speaker 3: I because the biggest game that year by far was
Speaker 3: at Indy. You know that that November sweets kind of
Speaker 3: game where both teams are always the top of the league.
Speaker 3: Brady Manning Cults are up ten in the fourth quarter,
Speaker 3: they come back and they get two touchdowns and they
Speaker 3: win the game, and they're rocking another one Bites the
Speaker 3: Dust on the plane on the way home. Now, Fred
Speaker 3: and I are thinking at the time, we probably shouldn't
Speaker 3: talk about it. I probably don't want this out there.
Speaker 3: Little do they know they were doing it in the
Speaker 3: locker room every every week, after every game.
Speaker 4: And the other thing that made me realize is how
Speaker 4: grateful I am for Teddy Brusk because you know how
Speaker 4: tough it is to play for Bill, and if you
Speaker 4: don't have somebody like Teddy who can do that, you know,
Speaker 4: despite Bill, no one would ever be able to play here.
Speaker 4: You needed a guy like that to keep it, even
Speaker 4: to give the other side, to tell the other guys
Speaker 4: it's okay, it's okay, we can celebrate.
Speaker 3: It's a really good point.
Speaker 4: Thank God for guys like Rabel and Teddy Bruske to
Speaker 4: be on this team.
Speaker 2: So those are the highlights of episode four. And we
Speaker 2: all know how episode four has to end. God, and
Speaker 2: that was the low light. But even with the low light,
Speaker 2: there was a couple of shining examples. I thought, Paul
Speaker 2: you and I talked about this. I thought Strahan was
Speaker 2: un believable.
Speaker 3: I thought he was really really good.
Speaker 2: And Fred you talked about Bruski. I thought Teddy really
Speaker 2: brought the whole thing full circle. We're witnessing that today
Speaker 2: where Patrick Mahomes is talking about, you know, jeez, are
Speaker 2: we are we venturing into Patriots territory here where people
Speaker 2: are sick of us because we're winning, and Bruski talked
Speaker 2: about you know they Straighthan made a great point about
Speaker 2: how they just had to pressure.
Speaker 3: Tom all the time, and Tom was getting.
Speaker 2: The crap kicked out of him and then said right right,
Speaker 2: And then Bruski talked about he saw the other sideline
Speaker 2: and Fred, you know how impressed with you and how
Speaker 2: he brought that whole thing absolutely and the way he's
Speaker 2: you know, like, we saw that. You know, we've been there,
Speaker 2: we saw that. And he says like, oh shit, because
Speaker 2: he knew that's us. He immediately we know what happens
Speaker 2: when that happens to the other team.
Speaker 3: He immediately put him, this is two thousand and one.
Speaker 3: They're us two thousand and one. Oh shit, oh shit,
Speaker 3: I know what that feels like. And I know, I
Speaker 3: think he said, I know, I know what they feel. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And the Giants didn't think they were underdogs. No, And
Speaker 3: the Giants, if you recall, showed up at that Super
Speaker 3: Bowl wearing a black because they were coming for a funeral.
Speaker 4: And I don't know who the announcer was in the
Speaker 4: documentary that says it at the time, he said, you know,
Speaker 4: if the Giants win this game, it's a great story
Speaker 4: of you know, the underdog beating Goliath. But if the
Speaker 4: Patriots win this game and go nineteen oh, it's it'll
Speaker 4: be a holy moment in the NFL, and I couldn't
Speaker 4: agree more. Had the Patriots won that game, it would
Speaker 4: it would have been something to this day. We be,
Speaker 4: you know, the greatest team time, right, and it got
Speaker 4: taken away, And I thought Jonathan Kraft I was just
Speaker 4: gonna say go ahead, No.
Speaker 3: I think the reaction.
Speaker 2: Of course, I would have liked to have heard more
Speaker 2: from Bill, but I'm not expecting that Bill was Bill
Speaker 2: when they asked him about it. Jonathan Craft, I thought
Speaker 2: was very poignant and gave a different perspective about walking
Speaker 2: into that.
Speaker 3: Locker room and what was that look like? Mike, Yeah,
Speaker 3: how did that?
Speaker 4: How did you take that?
Speaker 2: And I also want to ask you your thought on
Speaker 2: because I thought Tom, while not completely revelatory, gave you
Speaker 2: a little glimpse into what his life was like after
Speaker 2: that loss.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you know, as a fan, that's what
Speaker 5: I think you love as hearing Tom Brady has the
Speaker 5: same feel like I mean he said in it. You know,
Speaker 5: I was just watched it the other day. There were
Speaker 5: guys around waited to catch the tyree, you know, like
Speaker 5: they were feeling the same thing you were. And I
Speaker 5: think that's what's great about sports as a fan is
Speaker 5: you have this kind of sense of shared experience and
Speaker 5: so you know, it doesn't really help. But seeing Tom
Speaker 5: kind of still have those feelings and that angst about it,
Speaker 5: it just shows you how you're all kind of in
Speaker 5: it together. So I really like that, and I thought,
Speaker 5: you know, just I was. I was kind of shocked,
Speaker 5: to be honest, with what Jonathan said about you know,
Speaker 5: guys thrown up.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know that intensity.
Speaker 5: I mean I've heard other stories from you guys of
Speaker 5: you know, things metaled out afterwards and you know, guys
Speaker 5: kind of made peace with it.
Speaker 1: But it's the worst less in NFL history. There's no
Speaker 1: other way to put it.
Speaker 4: It was unintentionally great by him because he likes to
Speaker 4: think of another way to put it. Already did it?
Speaker 4: You know, well, I don't know really how to describe it.
Speaker 4: You know, you walk in, you see guys sob grown
Speaker 4: men sobbing, and guys throwing up, and we all watched
Speaker 4: it together.
Speaker 3: We like you just described it. That was it Another
Speaker 3: thing that I had never heard that, you know, that
Speaker 3: was the reaction in the locker room because but you know,
Speaker 3: Super Bowls are different. You don't generally go in the line.
Speaker 3: I mean, you can go in the locker room post
Speaker 3: Super Bowl, but usually they bring a bunch of players
Speaker 3: out to another area, so you don't really go in
Speaker 3: a postgame locker room for the Super Bowl. I don't
Speaker 3: think anybody saw that, And Jonathan gave you a window
Speaker 3: into that, and.
Speaker 4: It was so sickening.
Speaker 3: I can't imagine that you could see it on Jonathan's face,
Speaker 3: like all these years later, that he was back to
Speaker 3: that visceral reaction.
Speaker 4: Absolutely as guys were literally throwing up after that game.
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