1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:14,965 Speaker 1: School of Humans. We're in Walmart stocking up on provisions 2 00:00:14,965 --> 00:00:17,805 Speaker 1: for our cabin when we get a call from a 3 00:00:17,805 --> 00:00:21,565 Speaker 1: woman named Sylvia. She says that she does not want 4 00:00:21,605 --> 00:00:25,005 Speaker 1: to be interviewed again because the last time she came forward, 5 00:00:25,605 --> 00:00:29,485 Speaker 1: her entire life was put under a microscope. It was 6 00:00:29,805 --> 00:00:31,805 Speaker 1: interesting both in that she pointed out a lot of 7 00:00:31,805 --> 00:00:35,405 Speaker 1: the discrepancies, but she was explaining those discrepancies and she 8 00:00:35,485 --> 00:00:37,645 Speaker 1: was insisting that she's right and that she did see 9 00:00:37,645 --> 00:00:41,325 Speaker 1: what she saw. And she's reluctant to talk. But I 10 00:00:41,365 --> 00:00:42,805 Speaker 1: was able to sort of talk to her for about 11 00:00:42,845 --> 00:00:44,525 Speaker 1: twenty minutes and explain to her who you were, what 12 00:00:44,525 --> 00:00:48,085 Speaker 1: we're doing, that we're legit, and I feel like if 13 00:00:48,125 --> 00:00:50,405 Speaker 1: we get some new information or we have something she 14 00:00:50,405 --> 00:00:52,925 Speaker 1: can collaborate with us on, I feel like she will talk. 15 00:00:53,605 --> 00:00:57,405 Speaker 1: Sylvia is heavily featured in ABC's forty minute episode of 16 00:00:57,445 --> 00:01:00,685 Speaker 1: their show called Primetime that was dedicated to Janie's case. 17 00:01:01,485 --> 00:01:04,805 Speaker 1: It aired in two thousand and nine. In the program, 18 00:01:05,165 --> 00:01:08,405 Speaker 1: Sylvia tells the producers that at the time of Janie's death, 19 00:01:08,805 --> 00:01:12,165 Speaker 1: she was a runner, someone who delivered drugs to parties, 20 00:01:12,965 --> 00:01:16,765 Speaker 1: and on September ninth, nineteen eighty nine. She said she 21 00:01:16,845 --> 00:01:19,085 Speaker 1: was asked to deliver drugs to a high school party 22 00:01:19,285 --> 00:01:23,325 Speaker 1: that was happening in a cabin on Zach Road in Marshall, Arkansas. 23 00:01:24,005 --> 00:01:25,925 Speaker 1: She said when she pulled up to the cabin, she 24 00:01:26,005 --> 00:01:28,925 Speaker 1: was looking straight at the porch and she witnessed the 25 00:01:29,005 --> 00:01:33,245 Speaker 1: girl hid another girl in the face. Sylvia said she 26 00:01:33,325 --> 00:01:35,245 Speaker 1: high tailed it out of there because she didn't want 27 00:01:35,245 --> 00:01:38,045 Speaker 1: any trouble. She had bags of pot in her car 28 00:01:38,405 --> 00:01:42,005 Speaker 1: and didn't want to risk arrest. Sylvia didn't come forward 29 00:01:42,085 --> 00:01:45,285 Speaker 1: until two thousand and seven, three years into a new 30 00:01:45,325 --> 00:01:49,885 Speaker 1: investigation into Janie Ward's death. She claimed she had been scared, 31 00:01:50,765 --> 00:01:53,565 Speaker 1: but now she said she had a kid herself, and 32 00:01:53,605 --> 00:01:56,765 Speaker 1: she felt for the Ward family and she wanted the 33 00:01:56,765 --> 00:01:59,805 Speaker 1: Wards to know once and for all what happened to 34 00:01:59,845 --> 00:02:21,205 Speaker 1: their daughter. I'm Catherine Townsend and this is Helen Gone. 35 00:02:41,165 --> 00:02:43,045 Speaker 1: I do love the names of some of these roads, 36 00:02:43,085 --> 00:02:45,845 Speaker 1: Like some of them make sense, like Nighthawk Road and 37 00:02:45,885 --> 00:02:48,845 Speaker 1: Cricket Lane, and then some of them are like high 38 00:02:48,845 --> 00:02:54,005 Speaker 1: Tech Road. It's gonna be almost like purposely ironic. Right now, 39 00:02:54,325 --> 00:02:58,885 Speaker 1: we are going to the cabin where the party happened 40 00:02:59,205 --> 00:03:05,165 Speaker 1: and where Jane fell. Whatever happened to Janey happened to 41 00:03:05,205 --> 00:03:09,725 Speaker 1: turn right onto Zach Road, and we'd managed to get 42 00:03:09,725 --> 00:03:14,445 Speaker 1: some directions from the Freedom Information Request and from I 43 00:03:14,565 --> 00:03:17,565 Speaker 1: compared that address with the name of the person who 44 00:03:17,565 --> 00:03:20,605 Speaker 1: bought the cabin afterwards, So we're gonna go out there 45 00:03:20,605 --> 00:03:23,445 Speaker 1: and look for it. The cabin on Zach Road has 46 00:03:23,485 --> 00:03:27,245 Speaker 1: been renovated in the thirty years since Janie's death. It's 47 00:03:27,245 --> 00:03:29,685 Speaker 1: been spruced up since that fateful night in nineteen eighty 48 00:03:29,765 --> 00:03:33,965 Speaker 1: nine when Jane's cousin Jay lived there alone. The house 49 00:03:34,005 --> 00:03:37,605 Speaker 1: had two bedrooms. One had a dirty mattress on the ground. 50 00:03:38,245 --> 00:03:41,565 Speaker 1: The other, where Jay slept, had a mattress with stained 51 00:03:41,565 --> 00:03:45,005 Speaker 1: sheets and three thin pillows on it. Three shirts hung 52 00:03:45,045 --> 00:03:48,885 Speaker 1: in the closet. Another room was converted into a makeshift 53 00:03:48,925 --> 00:03:51,885 Speaker 1: workspace and was filled with old food containers and another 54 00:03:51,925 --> 00:03:54,765 Speaker 1: folded up mattress and file cabinet that looked like someone 55 00:03:54,845 --> 00:03:57,965 Speaker 1: to toss into the room. The living room had a 56 00:03:57,965 --> 00:04:00,965 Speaker 1: matching set of faded floral furniture, and there was a 57 00:04:00,965 --> 00:04:04,565 Speaker 1: model of a boat on display. The cabin didn't have 58 00:04:04,685 --> 00:04:08,525 Speaker 1: electricity or running water, so the appliances in the kitchen 59 00:04:08,525 --> 00:04:12,165 Speaker 1: and bathroom were unusable. And the whole house was covered 60 00:04:12,165 --> 00:04:17,125 Speaker 1: in matted brown carpet. The walls were unfinished. The house 61 00:04:17,165 --> 00:04:20,045 Speaker 1: had two porches. The one facing the gravel road that 62 00:04:20,125 --> 00:04:22,645 Speaker 1: leads up to the cabin is where Janey supposedly fell 63 00:04:22,685 --> 00:04:25,845 Speaker 1: off the step, and that step was no more than 64 00:04:25,885 --> 00:04:29,805 Speaker 1: ten inches in height. In December of two thousand and four, 65 00:04:30,445 --> 00:04:34,245 Speaker 1: Special Prosecutor Tim Williamson was court appointed to Janey's case. 66 00:04:35,245 --> 00:04:39,085 Speaker 1: At the time, he was a prosecutor based in Mina, Arkansas. 67 00:04:40,125 --> 00:04:43,125 Speaker 1: Governor Mike Huckabee sets aside ten thousand dollars for the 68 00:04:43,165 --> 00:04:47,525 Speaker 1: investigation so that Williamson can build a team of investigators 69 00:04:47,845 --> 00:04:51,725 Speaker 1: and a deputy prosecutor. The governor's spotlight on the case 70 00:04:51,765 --> 00:04:55,445 Speaker 1: gets readers hooked to Mike Masterson's column, and journalists from 71 00:04:55,445 --> 00:04:58,925 Speaker 1: around the state start covering the case again. One of 72 00:04:58,965 --> 00:05:03,045 Speaker 1: those journalists was Jason Peterson, and in his news report 73 00:05:03,085 --> 00:05:06,285 Speaker 1: that aired on KATV, he puts a cushion down where 74 00:05:06,325 --> 00:05:10,285 Speaker 1: Jennie falls and demonstrates the fall himself, tumbling backwards and 75 00:05:10,405 --> 00:05:13,165 Speaker 1: landing with a heavy smack under the cushion. When you 76 00:05:13,245 --> 00:05:16,405 Speaker 1: sort of demonstrated the fall off the porch, what was 77 00:05:16,405 --> 00:05:18,765 Speaker 1: your impression of the of the porch and how far 78 00:05:18,845 --> 00:05:21,805 Speaker 1: the fall was. Well, that's what I wanted to try 79 00:05:21,805 --> 00:05:25,445 Speaker 1: to convey to our viewers. You know, it's been widely 80 00:05:25,725 --> 00:05:28,125 Speaker 1: thought that she I mean, it's a fact she fell 81 00:05:28,165 --> 00:05:30,885 Speaker 1: off the porch. Three people witnessed her fall off the porch. 82 00:05:31,205 --> 00:05:33,805 Speaker 1: What's in dispute is whether that fall could kill someone. 83 00:05:34,165 --> 00:05:37,525 Speaker 1: A backward fall off the porch an fty plunges investigator 84 00:05:37,605 --> 00:05:42,045 Speaker 1: Beach years later would call it. And so I thought 85 00:05:42,165 --> 00:05:45,485 Speaker 1: the best way to try to show our viewers exactly 86 00:05:45,565 --> 00:05:47,725 Speaker 1: what the people at that party saw was to fall 87 00:05:47,765 --> 00:05:50,285 Speaker 1: off the porch myself. One of the reasons I wanted 88 00:05:50,325 --> 00:05:52,925 Speaker 1: to do it was because our top three ports showed 89 00:05:52,965 --> 00:05:59,965 Speaker 1: that her head had been snapped backwards. But a fall 90 00:06:00,085 --> 00:06:03,005 Speaker 1: like that does not propel your head backwards if anything 91 00:06:03,165 --> 00:06:06,365 Speaker 1: pushes it forwards when you hit the ground. And the 92 00:06:06,365 --> 00:06:09,285 Speaker 1: physical act of falling off the porch didn't match the 93 00:06:09,285 --> 00:06:12,685 Speaker 1: physical evidence of the head being snapped backwards, you know, 94 00:06:12,765 --> 00:06:16,645 Speaker 1: either struck in the face or somehow pushed backwards from 95 00:06:16,685 --> 00:06:20,125 Speaker 1: the face. And do you think that when you were 96 00:06:20,165 --> 00:06:21,845 Speaker 1: when you were you know, when you were falling off 97 00:06:21,885 --> 00:06:26,325 Speaker 1: the porch. It's widely been described as she fell ten inches, 98 00:06:26,365 --> 00:06:28,445 Speaker 1: but actually then others were saying, but it wasn't really 99 00:06:28,525 --> 00:06:30,805 Speaker 1: ten inches. If you count if you're going from the 100 00:06:30,805 --> 00:06:34,925 Speaker 1: top of her head, it's more than ten inches. Yeah, 101 00:06:34,965 --> 00:06:38,405 Speaker 1: it's much more. I mean, it's a much further fall 102 00:06:38,485 --> 00:06:40,405 Speaker 1: than ten inches the porch. While it's true as ten 103 00:06:40,485 --> 00:06:43,245 Speaker 1: inches high, you're falling from a height, and if you're 104 00:06:43,285 --> 00:06:46,325 Speaker 1: falling straight back, you know, that's probably maybe a six 105 00:06:46,445 --> 00:06:50,405 Speaker 1: or seven foot you know, acceleration before you hit. But 106 00:06:51,125 --> 00:06:54,165 Speaker 1: I think the prosecutor one time said he had seen 107 00:06:54,165 --> 00:06:56,245 Speaker 1: a case where a man in Hot Springs fell off 108 00:06:56,925 --> 00:06:59,445 Speaker 1: sent made a similar fall and he was now quadriplegic. 109 00:07:00,045 --> 00:07:02,205 Speaker 1: And I guess what you have to decide that the 110 00:07:02,285 --> 00:07:05,165 Speaker 1: viewer is, you know, is that enough to kill someone? 111 00:07:05,205 --> 00:07:08,565 Speaker 1: And ter freak accidents happened, but for the most part, 112 00:07:08,605 --> 00:07:11,325 Speaker 1: the human bodies designed to live. It's pretty difficult to 113 00:07:12,925 --> 00:07:16,285 Speaker 1: kill someone or you know, you can sustain a lot 114 00:07:16,285 --> 00:07:18,525 Speaker 1: of injuries and still live. And would that have been 115 00:07:18,685 --> 00:07:23,165 Speaker 1: enough to kill her or did something else happen either 116 00:07:23,605 --> 00:07:26,485 Speaker 1: before or after that fall that contributed to her death. 117 00:07:26,725 --> 00:07:29,925 Speaker 1: Peterson's report was in two thousand and five, a few 118 00:07:29,965 --> 00:07:34,445 Speaker 1: months into Tim Williamson's investigation, and In his report, he 119 00:07:34,525 --> 00:07:38,005 Speaker 1: brings up suspicions that he has about Jane's case. First, 120 00:07:38,325 --> 00:07:41,525 Speaker 1: the fact that ron Rose, Sherry, and Kim All said 121 00:07:41,565 --> 00:07:44,405 Speaker 1: they went straight to the bank parking lot, even though 122 00:07:44,525 --> 00:07:47,845 Speaker 1: dispatcher Harold Young said they went by the police station. First, 123 00:07:48,565 --> 00:07:52,125 Speaker 1: Peterson talked about the condition of Jannie's clothing, the fact 124 00:07:52,165 --> 00:07:54,485 Speaker 1: that her clothes were wet and sandy, even though the 125 00:07:54,485 --> 00:07:57,685 Speaker 1: cabin and the truck bed were reportedly dry and dusty. 126 00:07:58,405 --> 00:08:01,245 Speaker 1: He also mentioned the fact that those same clothes went missing, 127 00:08:01,805 --> 00:08:04,285 Speaker 1: and that the X rays the Wards supposedly saw in 128 00:08:04,325 --> 00:08:07,765 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine that showed a fracture were not the 129 00:08:07,805 --> 00:08:10,445 Speaker 1: same one sent to them from the crime lab, and 130 00:08:10,645 --> 00:08:13,645 Speaker 1: he pointed out the discrepancies in witness statements from Sarah 131 00:08:13,805 --> 00:08:16,805 Speaker 1: and some of her friends. He also said that the 132 00:08:16,845 --> 00:08:21,445 Speaker 1: ambulance run reports pertaining to Janie's death were stolen. In 133 00:08:21,485 --> 00:08:25,045 Speaker 1: the months after Jane died. The ambulance service had reported 134 00:08:25,045 --> 00:08:28,645 Speaker 1: that the building had been broken into, only one report 135 00:08:28,725 --> 00:08:33,565 Speaker 1: was stolen, Janey's. Peterson reached out to twenty six people 136 00:08:33,565 --> 00:08:36,005 Speaker 1: at the party. He was able to get a few 137 00:08:36,005 --> 00:08:38,965 Speaker 1: people to open up to him, but he got a 138 00:08:38,965 --> 00:08:41,205 Speaker 1: lot of doors slammed in his face, and a lot 139 00:08:41,245 --> 00:08:44,285 Speaker 1: of people hung up on him. Most people did not 140 00:08:44,445 --> 00:08:47,005 Speaker 1: want to revisit the night that Janie died. I think 141 00:08:47,045 --> 00:08:48,765 Speaker 1: we did a pretty good job. I did a pretty 142 00:08:48,805 --> 00:08:51,125 Speaker 1: good job contacting as many people at the party as 143 00:08:51,125 --> 00:08:53,245 Speaker 1: I could now as far as what their reactions were, 144 00:08:53,725 --> 00:08:57,245 Speaker 1: I thought maybe time would have loosened some lips, they'd 145 00:08:57,245 --> 00:08:59,325 Speaker 1: be less fearful to talk or to tell what they know. 146 00:08:59,445 --> 00:09:02,845 Speaker 1: It's suming there's something to know, But you know, a 147 00:09:02,885 --> 00:09:05,445 Speaker 1: lot of people as soon as identified who I was 148 00:09:05,605 --> 00:09:07,885 Speaker 1: and what I was calling about or what I was 149 00:09:07,965 --> 00:09:11,645 Speaker 1: visiting about, shutting down right away. Me know, it's just 150 00:09:11,725 --> 00:09:15,685 Speaker 1: a lot of over and over people not wanting to 151 00:09:16,885 --> 00:09:19,725 Speaker 1: talk about it at all, which kind of surprised me. 152 00:09:19,965 --> 00:09:22,125 Speaker 1: Though maybe they've just they're just tired of hearing about it, 153 00:09:22,325 --> 00:09:24,285 Speaker 1: are tired of talking about it, or tired of thinking 154 00:09:24,285 --> 00:09:26,285 Speaker 1: about it as soon as they do. When he tried 155 00:09:26,285 --> 00:09:29,565 Speaker 1: to call Gary Dn, Gary Don's girlfriend gave Peterson a 156 00:09:29,685 --> 00:09:33,485 Speaker 1: number for him to reach him on That number one 157 00:09:33,605 --> 00:09:37,325 Speaker 1: eight hundred fuck you. One other thing we still don't 158 00:09:37,365 --> 00:09:39,645 Speaker 1: know the answer to is the route that the truck 159 00:09:39,725 --> 00:09:44,005 Speaker 1: took from the cabin to the town Square. There are 160 00:09:44,045 --> 00:09:46,525 Speaker 1: two ways to drive from the cabin on Zach Road 161 00:09:46,725 --> 00:09:50,605 Speaker 1: to marshall'stown Square. The most direct route is turning left 162 00:09:50,645 --> 00:09:53,325 Speaker 1: out of the driveway. You go a few miles on 163 00:09:53,445 --> 00:09:57,045 Speaker 1: rocky roads and then hit the pavement. On this route 164 00:09:57,445 --> 00:10:01,685 Speaker 1: you pass the Sheriff's offices, old location, several homes, and 165 00:10:01,725 --> 00:10:05,285 Speaker 1: the community center where on the night Jane died, there 166 00:10:05,325 --> 00:10:08,845 Speaker 1: was huge event going on, but the people in the 167 00:10:08,885 --> 00:10:11,885 Speaker 1: truck who carry Janey in the back say they didn't 168 00:10:11,885 --> 00:10:15,405 Speaker 1: stop or notice the community meeting. They say they never 169 00:10:15,445 --> 00:10:18,565 Speaker 1: stopped until they got to the town square, which they 170 00:10:18,605 --> 00:10:20,725 Speaker 1: went to because it was close to the only medical 171 00:10:20,765 --> 00:10:26,165 Speaker 1: facility in town, the ambulance service. It was also across 172 00:10:26,165 --> 00:10:29,805 Speaker 1: the street from the car wash. The alternate route, a 173 00:10:29,805 --> 00:10:32,925 Speaker 1: little longer and even rockier, is a right turn out 174 00:10:32,965 --> 00:10:36,285 Speaker 1: of the driveway. This route goes along the creek bed 175 00:10:36,605 --> 00:10:38,525 Speaker 1: and comes out at the same place on the pavement 176 00:10:38,565 --> 00:10:42,445 Speaker 1: as the first route. Five point one miles to the 177 00:10:42,445 --> 00:10:45,805 Speaker 1: main road and zero point eight miles only really like 178 00:10:45,885 --> 00:10:48,645 Speaker 1: point eight like around just under a mile to a 179 00:10:48,685 --> 00:10:53,805 Speaker 1: good paved road. Whichever route they chose, the drive from 180 00:10:53,805 --> 00:10:57,445 Speaker 1: the cabin on Zach Road to Marshall's town Square should 181 00:10:57,485 --> 00:11:01,005 Speaker 1: not take any more than twenty minutes. We'll be right back. 182 00:11:05,485 --> 00:11:08,245 Speaker 1: It's like so many other people who worked on Jamie's case. 183 00:11:09,005 --> 00:11:13,365 Speaker 1: The Wards found the special prosecutor Tim Williamson disappointing. How 184 00:11:13,365 --> 00:11:15,725 Speaker 1: did that affect you and Ron the whole Tim Williamson thing. 185 00:11:15,925 --> 00:11:18,605 Speaker 1: I know, he came and prayed with you, right, Oh yeah, 186 00:11:18,765 --> 00:11:23,485 Speaker 1: what a joke he was, and the governor gave him 187 00:11:23,525 --> 00:11:28,845 Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars to have to investigate. He did nothing 188 00:11:29,165 --> 00:11:31,765 Speaker 1: but covered that. I mean it was already covered at 189 00:11:32,165 --> 00:11:36,605 Speaker 1: and all he did was helped them. I mean all 190 00:11:36,605 --> 00:11:41,805 Speaker 1: he did was yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah. And he didn't 191 00:11:41,805 --> 00:11:44,045 Speaker 1: hear from him. Michael said, you didn't hear from him 192 00:11:44,085 --> 00:11:47,445 Speaker 1: after him? You never, I mean we might ask questions, 193 00:11:47,485 --> 00:11:52,045 Speaker 1: we never got anything. Nothing. Journalist Mike Masterson writes about 194 00:11:52,045 --> 00:11:55,045 Speaker 1: this in his column about how much faith the Words 195 00:11:55,085 --> 00:11:59,885 Speaker 1: put into Tim Williamson. They prayed together, but after this meeting, 196 00:12:00,485 --> 00:12:02,645 Speaker 1: Mike said, it became harder and harder to get in 197 00:12:02,685 --> 00:12:06,205 Speaker 1: touch with him. The Words contacted Tim Williamson right away, 198 00:12:07,045 --> 00:12:12,765 Speaker 1: and Williamson drove to Marshall and met at a church 199 00:12:12,845 --> 00:12:17,725 Speaker 1: with a family and prayed together or justice to emerge 200 00:12:17,725 --> 00:12:19,885 Speaker 1: in this case. He promised the family, I will find 201 00:12:19,885 --> 00:12:22,565 Speaker 1: out what happened to your daughter, you know, and if 202 00:12:22,605 --> 00:12:26,125 Speaker 1: it need be, there'll be accountability. He promised them that 203 00:12:26,445 --> 00:12:29,285 Speaker 1: in the church, well they believed. I wanted to believe him, 204 00:12:29,285 --> 00:12:32,245 Speaker 1: of course. I mean. Ron called me and said, well, 205 00:12:32,285 --> 00:12:34,285 Speaker 1: we have hope for the first time that something's going 206 00:12:34,325 --> 00:12:36,325 Speaker 1: to happen. He seems like a very sincere guy. He 207 00:12:36,485 --> 00:12:40,205 Speaker 1: will do the right thing. For the first week or two, 208 00:12:40,525 --> 00:12:43,565 Speaker 1: Tim Williamson called me, knowing I'd been involved in it 209 00:12:43,805 --> 00:12:46,005 Speaker 1: and writing about it, and he said, you know, I'm 210 00:12:46,045 --> 00:12:47,525 Speaker 1: going to rely on you, Mike, if you don't mind 211 00:12:47,525 --> 00:12:51,085 Speaker 1: this for information if I get stuck. And I said, sure, 212 00:12:51,685 --> 00:12:53,245 Speaker 1: I don't have anything to hide, and I'll be glad 213 00:12:53,245 --> 00:12:55,205 Speaker 1: to help because I'd like to see justice done too. 214 00:12:56,605 --> 00:12:59,645 Speaker 1: So he kind of had a rapport until about the 215 00:12:59,685 --> 00:13:02,365 Speaker 1: third week into it, when he called me and said 216 00:13:02,365 --> 00:13:05,125 Speaker 1: he was going to the crime lab to start really 217 00:13:05,165 --> 00:13:07,805 Speaker 1: digging deeper into this, all this and all the records 218 00:13:07,805 --> 00:13:10,845 Speaker 1: there at the crime lab and blah blah blah. He said, 219 00:13:10,885 --> 00:13:13,565 Speaker 1: I'll get back to you next week. I said, great. 220 00:13:14,085 --> 00:13:17,205 Speaker 1: So I waited a week past nothing two weeks nothing. 221 00:13:17,485 --> 00:13:21,445 Speaker 1: Finally about probably three weeks after, you know, I tried 222 00:13:21,445 --> 00:13:23,685 Speaker 1: to reach him and couldn't get through. You know, it's 223 00:13:23,725 --> 00:13:26,485 Speaker 1: like he's busy, he's tied up. Now. Who knows what 224 00:13:26,525 --> 00:13:30,205 Speaker 1: happened to the crime lab. I don't, but logically I 225 00:13:30,245 --> 00:13:32,445 Speaker 1: would say something happened to the crime lab, and he 226 00:13:32,525 --> 00:13:35,405 Speaker 1: was told something at the crime lab and during his 227 00:13:35,525 --> 00:13:38,525 Speaker 1: visit over in a little rock that maybe sort of 228 00:13:39,405 --> 00:13:44,325 Speaker 1: dampened his attitude. Put it that way, because after that 229 00:13:45,085 --> 00:13:48,365 Speaker 1: he would announce that he's dug into this. He's got 230 00:13:48,405 --> 00:13:52,285 Speaker 1: a staff helping him do it. He's doing interviews, going 231 00:13:52,365 --> 00:13:55,845 Speaker 1: to find out what happened. He spent four years total, 232 00:13:56,925 --> 00:13:59,725 Speaker 1: and he amassed lots of you know, paper, stacks of 233 00:14:00,285 --> 00:14:03,565 Speaker 1: paper with interviews and stuff. So when you looked at it, 234 00:14:03,605 --> 00:14:05,445 Speaker 1: you know, it looks like, boy, this guy's been really busy. 235 00:14:06,005 --> 00:14:08,805 Speaker 1: But when you broke it down, there wasn't anything of 236 00:14:08,885 --> 00:14:13,645 Speaker 1: substance that mattered. Tim Williamson's report makes up the bulk 237 00:14:13,685 --> 00:14:15,765 Speaker 1: of the police case file we got from the Arkansas 238 00:14:15,845 --> 00:14:19,965 Speaker 1: State Police. It's filled with transcriptions of interviews with witnesses 239 00:14:20,485 --> 00:14:23,165 Speaker 1: and a bunch of repeated material from the first investigations. 240 00:14:23,205 --> 00:14:27,085 Speaker 1: Case file. A lot of the accusations against Williamson center 241 00:14:27,165 --> 00:14:29,165 Speaker 1: on the fact that people didn't think he was working 242 00:14:29,205 --> 00:14:32,685 Speaker 1: hard enough. In the case file, there are dozens of 243 00:14:32,765 --> 00:14:36,725 Speaker 1: letters addressed to Williamson from people around Arkansas telling him 244 00:14:36,725 --> 00:14:40,405 Speaker 1: to get a move on. On page three, eight hundred 245 00:14:40,405 --> 00:14:44,085 Speaker 1: and sixty, I find a note from Williamson's deputy prosecutor. 246 00:14:45,165 --> 00:14:48,765 Speaker 1: He says they should hold off on conducting interviews until 247 00:14:48,805 --> 00:14:52,205 Speaker 1: after the Wards have concluded their civil suit. That's the 248 00:14:52,205 --> 00:14:55,165 Speaker 1: one where they're petitioning to change Janey's death certificate from 249 00:14:55,245 --> 00:14:59,165 Speaker 1: undetermined to homicide, and he says that they might as 250 00:14:59,165 --> 00:15:02,885 Speaker 1: well hold off because the ward's lawyer is already deposing witnesses, 251 00:15:03,525 --> 00:15:07,565 Speaker 1: meaning court ordered subpoenas to get the to interview. That way, 252 00:15:08,005 --> 00:15:10,805 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have to double up on the work. The 253 00:15:10,885 --> 00:15:15,805 Speaker 1: depositions were done by the ward's lawyer, Jerry Sallings. Saling's 254 00:15:15,885 --> 00:15:18,525 Speaker 1: law firm started working for the Wards when the family 255 00:15:18,565 --> 00:15:21,845 Speaker 1: needed to get Janie's body exhumed before the second autopsy. 256 00:15:22,605 --> 00:15:25,485 Speaker 1: What we're hoping to get from these depositions is the 257 00:15:25,565 --> 00:15:30,045 Speaker 1: answer to some key questions, including how much time elapsed 258 00:15:30,085 --> 00:15:32,325 Speaker 1: from the time Jannie fell to the ground to the 259 00:15:32,325 --> 00:15:34,605 Speaker 1: time that she got to the bank parking lot, and 260 00:15:35,365 --> 00:15:38,325 Speaker 1: did the truck make any other stops en route. I'm 261 00:15:38,325 --> 00:15:41,285 Speaker 1: also interested in the depositions from Ron Rose and Kim 262 00:15:41,725 --> 00:15:44,605 Speaker 1: because they were the ones in the truck. I'm also 263 00:15:44,725 --> 00:15:48,365 Speaker 1: interested in Gary Donn's deposition because Richard Walter from the 264 00:15:48,405 --> 00:15:52,205 Speaker 1: Vidock Society said Gary Donn told him a completely different 265 00:15:52,245 --> 00:15:56,525 Speaker 1: story than the one that was in his statement. In 266 00:15:56,605 --> 00:16:00,645 Speaker 1: Kim's deposition, she's cooperative, but she gives yes and no 267 00:16:00,765 --> 00:16:04,765 Speaker 1: answers and doesn't elaborate. But what she says in her 268 00:16:04,805 --> 00:16:08,645 Speaker 1: interview mostly matches her original statements, which were taken in 269 00:16:08,685 --> 00:16:11,085 Speaker 1: the months after the incident. Do you you you said 270 00:16:11,125 --> 00:16:14,765 Speaker 1: that you and Janie were good friends, who were friends? Okay? 271 00:16:15,445 --> 00:16:17,445 Speaker 1: Do you know if she was having any problems with 272 00:16:17,525 --> 00:16:22,205 Speaker 1: anybody at school? No? I don't don't know. No, you're 273 00:16:22,245 --> 00:16:24,205 Speaker 1: not saying she wasn't. You just don't know where it 274 00:16:24,325 --> 00:16:28,005 Speaker 1: was that. Had you heard any rumors about her having 275 00:16:28,045 --> 00:16:32,125 Speaker 1: any problems at school with anybody? No? After Janie got 276 00:16:32,165 --> 00:16:35,085 Speaker 1: in the vehicle with you, did you go straight to 277 00:16:35,125 --> 00:16:39,045 Speaker 1: the party. Yes. Here Saling is asking about how they 278 00:16:39,165 --> 00:16:41,165 Speaker 1: got there in case they had passed the river or 279 00:16:41,205 --> 00:16:43,685 Speaker 1: the creek before going to the party. Didn't go by 280 00:16:43,725 --> 00:16:48,445 Speaker 1: the river? No, didn't stop to buy anything, No, didn't 281 00:16:49,205 --> 00:16:53,085 Speaker 1: go drink somewhere else or anything at all. Did you 282 00:16:53,125 --> 00:16:57,685 Speaker 1: pick up anybody else on the way to the party? No? Okay, 283 00:16:57,765 --> 00:16:59,805 Speaker 1: So how help me out? How long does it take 284 00:16:59,845 --> 00:17:02,245 Speaker 1: to get from the square out to where the party was? 285 00:17:03,445 --> 00:17:08,685 Speaker 1: I mean minutes, maybe thirty. That's just a gives Ron 286 00:17:08,805 --> 00:17:11,765 Speaker 1: Rose is more descriptive in his answers. Do you remember 287 00:17:11,805 --> 00:17:16,045 Speaker 1: what she was wearing then? Like a blue jeans and 288 00:17:16,125 --> 00:17:17,685 Speaker 1: a black shirt? And I don't know. I pause it. 289 00:17:17,725 --> 00:17:20,805 Speaker 1: That's wet. He said. He felt like it was his 290 00:17:20,925 --> 00:17:23,005 Speaker 1: duty to get help for Janey. Might I say, no, won, 291 00:17:23,045 --> 00:17:25,245 Speaker 1: there's a good good as friends. We was being kid 292 00:17:25,245 --> 00:17:27,525 Speaker 1: and everything, and I feel like there's my responsibility to 293 00:17:27,525 --> 00:17:29,445 Speaker 1: get her out of there, you know. So we try 294 00:17:29,485 --> 00:17:31,445 Speaker 1: to get her in front of my truck, try to 295 00:17:31,445 --> 00:17:34,125 Speaker 1: load her up. And how did you try to do that? 296 00:17:34,445 --> 00:17:36,805 Speaker 1: Just about three or four, I think it's four of 297 00:17:36,885 --> 00:17:38,645 Speaker 1: us there, four or five of us picked her up 298 00:17:38,645 --> 00:17:40,885 Speaker 1: and tried to handle as best we kids, and tried 299 00:17:40,885 --> 00:17:42,725 Speaker 1: the slider up in front of my truck in the cab, 300 00:17:42,725 --> 00:17:44,365 Speaker 1: in my truck and we couldn't get her in there. 301 00:17:44,925 --> 00:17:47,605 Speaker 1: She's too big and she was limp, you know, she 302 00:17:47,805 --> 00:17:50,965 Speaker 1: just it was hard. We couldn't get her in there. Right, 303 00:17:51,045 --> 00:17:53,765 Speaker 1: you know the back of your truck? Was it wet 304 00:17:53,885 --> 00:17:57,765 Speaker 1: or dry? Pretty sure it was dry. Here Ron gives 305 00:17:57,845 --> 00:18:00,445 Speaker 1: more details about the car wreck. This is the one 306 00:18:00,445 --> 00:18:03,525 Speaker 1: that we talked about in the last episode. The vehicle 307 00:18:03,605 --> 00:18:07,285 Speaker 1: was Ryan's. He became his hysterical after Janneye was pronounced 308 00:18:07,325 --> 00:18:09,845 Speaker 1: dead in the parking lot as you were leaving. Do 309 00:18:09,925 --> 00:18:13,805 Speaker 1: you remember Brian getting his truck stuck? Yes, he wrecked 310 00:18:13,885 --> 00:18:15,765 Speaker 1: atop of the hill up there, had a wrecked up there. 311 00:18:17,165 --> 00:18:19,885 Speaker 1: Who's in the truck with him? He was in a car. 312 00:18:19,965 --> 00:18:22,045 Speaker 1: I don't know who was with him for sure, but 313 00:18:22,125 --> 00:18:24,685 Speaker 1: he was in a car, a car, Yeah, all right? 314 00:18:25,125 --> 00:18:27,645 Speaker 1: Did he block the He had roadblock he'd come out 315 00:18:27,765 --> 00:18:29,645 Speaker 1: this big steep hill. When he come out on top, 316 00:18:29,725 --> 00:18:31,765 Speaker 1: he'd lost it and nosed off in the bank and 317 00:18:31,765 --> 00:18:33,685 Speaker 1: the back end was sticking all the way off the road. 318 00:18:34,485 --> 00:18:37,365 Speaker 1: So how did y'all get around him? I had a 319 00:18:37,405 --> 00:18:39,685 Speaker 1: friend Jimmy, come up there and yanked him back to 320 00:18:39,685 --> 00:18:41,405 Speaker 1: the truck bank, yanked his car out of the way 321 00:18:41,445 --> 00:18:42,845 Speaker 1: to where I could drive up on the bank and 322 00:18:42,845 --> 00:18:46,765 Speaker 1: get by, and then after you got on the past him, 323 00:18:46,965 --> 00:18:49,565 Speaker 1: you've got a gravel road for a while or ways here, 324 00:18:50,525 --> 00:18:54,805 Speaker 1: And did y'all ever stop and never stopped? Neither Ron 325 00:18:54,885 --> 00:18:57,805 Speaker 1: nor Kim said they stopped by the police station, and 326 00:18:57,845 --> 00:19:00,165 Speaker 1: they both said they took a left out of the driveway, 327 00:19:00,925 --> 00:19:03,485 Speaker 1: the more direct route that does not pass by the creek. 328 00:19:04,205 --> 00:19:08,885 Speaker 1: Gary Donn's deposition openly hostile at the beginning, especially because 329 00:19:08,965 --> 00:19:12,125 Speaker 1: during the depositions Ron and Moana Ward are in the 330 00:19:12,205 --> 00:19:15,805 Speaker 1: room and you can feel the tension. You're here under 331 00:19:15,845 --> 00:19:19,565 Speaker 1: the court order. Subpoena is a court order from the judge, 332 00:19:20,085 --> 00:19:24,685 Speaker 1: and I get to ask you questions and it's my 333 00:19:24,845 --> 00:19:26,445 Speaker 1: right and as I answer them, if I don't want to, 334 00:19:26,725 --> 00:19:29,165 Speaker 1: well that's why I'm I'm about care to not go 335 00:19:29,205 --> 00:19:31,565 Speaker 1: further than this right out here, right now, I understand. 336 00:19:31,805 --> 00:19:34,445 Speaker 1: Let me just tell you the way this works in 337 00:19:34,485 --> 00:19:37,805 Speaker 1: a deposition. If you refuse to answer the question, you 338 00:19:37,805 --> 00:19:40,205 Speaker 1: can walk out of here today and I can go 339 00:19:40,245 --> 00:19:42,645 Speaker 1: to the judge and I can say he refused to 340 00:19:42,645 --> 00:19:45,325 Speaker 1: answer these questions, and he can force you to come 341 00:19:45,325 --> 00:19:47,845 Speaker 1: back here and answer them, and then you pay for 342 00:19:47,885 --> 00:19:50,925 Speaker 1: the deposition. Go for that right now, I'm paying for it. 343 00:19:51,125 --> 00:19:53,365 Speaker 1: Go for it. Okay. Well, I don't want to get 344 00:19:53,365 --> 00:19:55,325 Speaker 1: into confident. I don't want to fool with this. I'm 345 00:19:55,845 --> 00:19:58,005 Speaker 1: this man right here. I don't care that he'd be 346 00:19:58,045 --> 00:20:00,365 Speaker 1: in the same room with him, because the crap he's 347 00:20:00,405 --> 00:20:03,485 Speaker 1: put me through, and I do not like to even 348 00:20:03,565 --> 00:20:07,845 Speaker 1: be in the same block with the man you're pointing to, 349 00:20:07,925 --> 00:20:12,805 Speaker 1: Ron Ron Ward right there. All right, well, I can 350 00:20:12,845 --> 00:20:16,685 Speaker 1: tell that your your feelings are a little very very 351 00:20:17,485 --> 00:20:20,685 Speaker 1: Sellings asked him to review his statement, and garyd On 352 00:20:20,805 --> 00:20:23,085 Speaker 1: says he didn't say most of the stuff that was 353 00:20:23,125 --> 00:20:26,405 Speaker 1: in it. To him, it looked like someone made up 354 00:20:26,445 --> 00:20:31,285 Speaker 1: his answers say this in some parts, it's it's it's 355 00:20:31,325 --> 00:20:36,405 Speaker 1: like it's backwards. I mean, like, I don't really explain 356 00:20:36,445 --> 00:20:38,565 Speaker 1: it to you. It just it's just like I told 357 00:20:38,605 --> 00:20:40,925 Speaker 1: you had like it had a mace or Somethingody created 358 00:20:41,245 --> 00:20:44,965 Speaker 1: theirself how they wanted it to be. That's what I'm saying. 359 00:20:45,245 --> 00:20:47,525 Speaker 1: So it's not the truth of what you said. No 360 00:20:47,765 --> 00:20:51,445 Speaker 1: not no, okay, uh now it's two pages. Did you 361 00:20:51,485 --> 00:20:55,125 Speaker 1: read all of it? I've read enough. That's fine. So 362 00:20:55,325 --> 00:20:58,085 Speaker 1: I read enough. Somebody made that up. Okay, tell me 363 00:20:58,125 --> 00:21:00,765 Speaker 1: what part of it is not true. I've never seen 364 00:21:00,805 --> 00:21:06,325 Speaker 1: her filling no cut from okay, Okay, I've never seen 365 00:21:06,365 --> 00:21:08,805 Speaker 1: her drinking. Let's take it one one statement at times 366 00:21:08,805 --> 00:21:12,885 Speaker 1: so I can keep up with this. Okay, let's see, 367 00:21:13,125 --> 00:21:18,045 Speaker 1: says I got to the party around six, Ron, Kim 368 00:21:18,125 --> 00:21:21,685 Speaker 1: and Jane came in together. Is that is that what 369 00:21:21,725 --> 00:21:24,005 Speaker 1: you said or not? That's about the one thing I've 370 00:21:24,005 --> 00:21:27,685 Speaker 1: seen there in the first sentences that was correct. Okay, 371 00:21:28,165 --> 00:21:30,285 Speaker 1: that can recall. Well, let me tell you this. This 372 00:21:30,365 --> 00:21:32,725 Speaker 1: is a statement that we got from the police department, 373 00:21:33,045 --> 00:21:37,645 Speaker 1: and this is supposed This is a copy of an 374 00:21:37,685 --> 00:21:41,605 Speaker 1: interview that supposedly Bill Beach of the State Police took 375 00:21:41,805 --> 00:21:44,485 Speaker 1: and this is his statement. This is anything I came 376 00:21:44,565 --> 00:21:48,485 Speaker 1: up with. They changed there, They changed much stuff over 377 00:21:48,765 --> 00:21:53,365 Speaker 1: the years in the department down there at that time. 378 00:21:55,725 --> 00:21:58,485 Speaker 1: I'm not disputing it. I'm asking questions. I'm interested in 379 00:21:58,605 --> 00:22:01,285 Speaker 1: what you're telling me. I understand, Okay, So I want 380 00:22:01,285 --> 00:22:05,245 Speaker 1: to know what in here is not your statement. Sellings 381 00:22:05,245 --> 00:22:08,405 Speaker 1: goes line by line and Gary don lists out what 382 00:22:08,445 --> 00:22:10,605 Speaker 1: he doesn't agree with from his original state says, I 383 00:22:10,645 --> 00:22:12,285 Speaker 1: went over to her and it was like the breath 384 00:22:12,325 --> 00:22:16,845 Speaker 1: was knocked out of her. You're shaking your head. No, sorry, 385 00:22:17,085 --> 00:22:22,085 Speaker 1: it's all right. And her shirt had come up when 386 00:22:22,085 --> 00:22:24,165 Speaker 1: she fell, and I looked at her stomach and I 387 00:22:24,205 --> 00:22:28,125 Speaker 1: couldn't tell that she was breathing. No, me, and somebody 388 00:22:28,165 --> 00:22:30,325 Speaker 1: picked her up and put her on the porch. No, 389 00:22:31,045 --> 00:22:33,725 Speaker 1: her eyes were open about halfway and rolled back, and 390 00:22:33,805 --> 00:22:38,325 Speaker 1: she was not blinking. No. I believe she had messed 391 00:22:38,365 --> 00:22:43,485 Speaker 1: in her pants too. No, I couldn't get anybody to 392 00:22:43,565 --> 00:22:46,285 Speaker 1: help me. The urinating part is the only part that 393 00:22:48,525 --> 00:22:52,005 Speaker 1: I remember it looked like to me. In this deposition, 394 00:22:52,605 --> 00:22:55,165 Speaker 1: gary Don doesn't mention anything about the creek bad and 395 00:22:55,205 --> 00:22:57,525 Speaker 1: the drowning theory that we had heard from Richard Walter 396 00:22:57,605 --> 00:23:01,805 Speaker 1: of the Vedok Society. These answers are notably different from 397 00:23:01,845 --> 00:23:05,325 Speaker 1: gary Don's original statement in nineteen eighty nine and his 398 00:23:05,645 --> 00:23:07,925 Speaker 1: link the interview with Bill Beach in the months after 399 00:23:08,045 --> 00:23:11,965 Speaker 1: Jane's death. In this deposition, he says he did not 400 00:23:12,045 --> 00:23:15,085 Speaker 1: move Janeye onto the porch, and he also says she 401 00:23:15,165 --> 00:23:17,285 Speaker 1: could have been lying on the ground for up to 402 00:23:17,325 --> 00:23:21,845 Speaker 1: twenty minutes before he had said he had immediately gone 403 00:23:21,885 --> 00:23:24,205 Speaker 1: over to her after she had fallen and moved her 404 00:23:24,285 --> 00:23:27,565 Speaker 1: up onto the porch. He also doesn't remember his interview 405 00:23:27,565 --> 00:23:29,725 Speaker 1: with Bill Beach and says he had to do a 406 00:23:29,765 --> 00:23:33,645 Speaker 1: polygraph test basically a light detector test at the Cercy 407 00:23:33,685 --> 00:23:37,245 Speaker 1: County Jail, but there is no mention of a polygraph 408 00:23:37,285 --> 00:23:41,165 Speaker 1: test anywhere in the case file. In fact, Bill Beach 409 00:23:41,245 --> 00:23:45,165 Speaker 1: later specifically said that he hadn't administered any polygraph tests 410 00:23:45,445 --> 00:23:50,285 Speaker 1: during his investigation. On the night Janie died, ron Ward 411 00:23:50,365 --> 00:23:52,965 Speaker 1: saw his daughter in the morgue at the Kaufman Funeral 412 00:23:52,965 --> 00:23:56,365 Speaker 1: Home around midnight. He was there with the coroner of 413 00:23:56,405 --> 00:23:59,845 Speaker 1: Sirsey County, Thomas Martin, and Ron said he had to 414 00:23:59,885 --> 00:24:04,245 Speaker 1: insist on an autopsy. Sallings deposed Tom to ask him 415 00:24:04,245 --> 00:24:06,845 Speaker 1: about his impressions of that night. Tell us your name, 416 00:24:06,925 --> 00:24:10,525 Speaker 1: pleads Thomas W. Martin Jr. And mister Martin, I understand 417 00:24:10,565 --> 00:24:13,365 Speaker 1: that you have some difficulty hearing at times. I do 418 00:24:13,645 --> 00:24:16,565 Speaker 1: all right, and you know we're here today for a deposition. 419 00:24:17,325 --> 00:24:19,805 Speaker 1: At the time of Jane's death, Tom had been a 420 00:24:19,845 --> 00:24:23,325 Speaker 1: coroner for about twenty five years, and his role was 421 00:24:23,365 --> 00:24:26,645 Speaker 1: mainly to declare someone dead and also determine a cause 422 00:24:26,645 --> 00:24:30,165 Speaker 1: of death if he couldn't determine anything. He would send 423 00:24:30,205 --> 00:24:34,085 Speaker 1: the body to the medical examiner in Little Rock. Sellings 424 00:24:34,125 --> 00:24:37,125 Speaker 1: asked him a question about his corner report. Next to 425 00:24:37,205 --> 00:24:39,685 Speaker 1: a lot of the questions on the forum, Tom left 426 00:24:39,685 --> 00:24:42,685 Speaker 1: it blank or wrote a question mark. He could not 427 00:24:42,805 --> 00:24:45,885 Speaker 1: tell if there were abrasions on Jane's body, He could 428 00:24:45,885 --> 00:24:48,645 Speaker 1: not tell what injury there was, or if any foul 429 00:24:48,645 --> 00:24:52,125 Speaker 1: play occurred. He had ruled out fairly obvious causes of 430 00:24:52,165 --> 00:24:55,525 Speaker 1: death like gunshot wounds, and said he didn't see anything 431 00:24:55,565 --> 00:24:59,725 Speaker 1: obviously wrong with Janey. Basically, he said he had no 432 00:24:59,765 --> 00:25:02,885 Speaker 1: idea what happened to Janey. And he said he also 433 00:25:02,965 --> 00:25:05,885 Speaker 1: didn't finish filling out the form because he was already 434 00:25:05,885 --> 00:25:08,765 Speaker 1: intending to have the body taken to Little Rock. In fact, 435 00:25:08,885 --> 00:25:11,725 Speaker 1: like I I couldn't exactly remember, he said he figured that 436 00:25:11,765 --> 00:25:14,765 Speaker 1: he would have already called the medical Examiner's office by 437 00:25:14,805 --> 00:25:17,325 Speaker 1: the time he met Ron at the funeral home. Did 438 00:25:17,325 --> 00:25:20,605 Speaker 1: you see mister Ward that night, Ron Ward, Yes, he 439 00:25:20,645 --> 00:25:24,125 Speaker 1: came to the funeral And would that have been before 440 00:25:24,245 --> 00:25:29,125 Speaker 1: or after the court the medical examiner was called? Probably 441 00:25:29,125 --> 00:25:33,205 Speaker 1: after he was called. No, I don't really remember the 442 00:25:33,205 --> 00:25:36,165 Speaker 1: time frame that he came in of the funeral. Do 443 00:25:36,245 --> 00:25:41,565 Speaker 1: you have any memory of him insisting that an autopsv done. 444 00:25:42,005 --> 00:25:47,845 Speaker 1: Uh No, don't have anything. He didn't have to insist 445 00:25:47,845 --> 00:25:51,005 Speaker 1: on him because he was already on the way. The 446 00:25:51,045 --> 00:25:54,565 Speaker 1: investigators working on the case did conduct and record interviews 447 00:25:54,685 --> 00:25:56,725 Speaker 1: from two thousand and seven to two thousand and eight. 448 00:25:57,245 --> 00:26:02,085 Speaker 1: Sarah is a glaring omission from these interviews. They interviewed 449 00:26:02,165 --> 00:26:05,445 Speaker 1: JD and Kathy, the ambulance service attendants who checked Jane 450 00:26:05,725 --> 00:26:09,005 Speaker 1: in the bank parking lot. They're the ones who also 451 00:26:09,045 --> 00:26:11,645 Speaker 1: said they saw debris on Janie and that her clothes 452 00:26:11,645 --> 00:26:15,645 Speaker 1: were wet. They also saw swelling in her neck. And 453 00:26:16,165 --> 00:26:18,685 Speaker 1: they're the ones who filled out the ambulance run reports, 454 00:26:19,165 --> 00:26:21,245 Speaker 1: the ones that had supposedly been stolen in the months 455 00:26:21,245 --> 00:26:26,125 Speaker 1: after Janie's death. Here's Kathy's interview with investigators. I after 456 00:26:26,285 --> 00:26:31,045 Speaker 1: broken into then they thought, well, JD, who was my husband's, 457 00:26:31,085 --> 00:26:35,885 Speaker 1: thought that the run sheet had gotten stolen. I found 458 00:26:35,885 --> 00:26:38,925 Speaker 1: that I had put it in a different place. But 459 00:26:39,405 --> 00:26:43,605 Speaker 1: Kathy clarifies the run report was just misplaced, and this 460 00:26:43,685 --> 00:26:46,365 Speaker 1: has been a Misunderstandably was and it was. I found 461 00:26:46,405 --> 00:26:49,325 Speaker 1: it later on. I had put it under some new 462 00:26:49,445 --> 00:26:52,165 Speaker 1: run sheet and I didn't realize that I had done that. 463 00:26:52,725 --> 00:26:55,645 Speaker 1: Kathy again describes what she saw in the bank parking 464 00:26:55,685 --> 00:26:59,885 Speaker 1: lot and what condition Janie's body was in clothes was 465 00:26:59,885 --> 00:27:02,485 Speaker 1: a damp here you're stamp and what was that inmisphere 466 00:27:02,565 --> 00:27:07,765 Speaker 1: conditions at this time? It was it was dry that 467 00:27:07,885 --> 00:27:13,525 Speaker 1: she was damp. Her clothes were damp, her hair was damp. 468 00:27:14,165 --> 00:27:16,645 Speaker 1: The only place that there was in the dampness was 469 00:27:16,685 --> 00:27:21,765 Speaker 1: between the raps. And I said, I smelled no urine 470 00:27:22,085 --> 00:27:26,485 Speaker 1: or no bed. I just had a it's just a 471 00:27:26,725 --> 00:27:29,525 Speaker 1: soft perfuse smell. That was all I smelled. There was 472 00:27:30,245 --> 00:27:37,365 Speaker 1: leaves and twigs and sand in her hair, and you know, 473 00:27:37,845 --> 00:27:40,805 Speaker 1: that was all I looked at at that time. And 474 00:27:40,925 --> 00:27:45,005 Speaker 1: I did a cervical check, but I I didn't feel 475 00:27:45,805 --> 00:27:48,365 Speaker 1: the spine. It it felt like it was in plite. 476 00:27:49,645 --> 00:27:51,565 Speaker 1: And they said the flight the spine in her neck, 477 00:27:51,645 --> 00:27:53,885 Speaker 1: the free had a whole leaf spine. I was checking 478 00:27:53,885 --> 00:27:56,685 Speaker 1: the sea spine and I felt like I felt everything. 479 00:27:58,725 --> 00:28:00,885 Speaker 1: But you know, I still kept tractioning on the neck. 480 00:28:00,965 --> 00:28:03,805 Speaker 1: I that we'd keep tractioning when we'd moving. Mkay, let 481 00:28:03,845 --> 00:28:05,245 Speaker 1: me back you up to what you said the while. 482 00:28:05,285 --> 00:28:09,125 Speaker 1: Was it real? Kathy said she didn't notice an obvious 483 00:28:09,165 --> 00:28:12,605 Speaker 1: neck injury when she examined Janie, nor did she see 484 00:28:12,645 --> 00:28:16,125 Speaker 1: any trauma to the face. Hearing these accounts from the 485 00:28:16,165 --> 00:28:20,205 Speaker 1: coroner and Kathy, neither of them could see anything obviously 486 00:28:20,245 --> 00:28:24,045 Speaker 1: wrong with Jane. So if there were no obvious injuries 487 00:28:24,045 --> 00:28:26,885 Speaker 1: to her face, was it possible that she was hitting 488 00:28:26,925 --> 00:28:36,285 Speaker 1: the face at all. We'll be right back. We're driving 489 00:28:36,285 --> 00:28:39,565 Speaker 1: to Little Rock to meet with a family's lawyer, Jerry Sallings. 490 00:28:40,285 --> 00:28:43,925 Speaker 1: He conducted all the depositions and represented the Ward family 491 00:28:44,205 --> 00:28:47,845 Speaker 1: for the duration of Tim Williamson's investigation, but he was 492 00:28:47,885 --> 00:28:54,725 Speaker 1: also an outsider to Marshall. I don't care if we 493 00:28:54,765 --> 00:28:58,965 Speaker 1: wanted his perspective on the case. What I believe is, 494 00:29:00,725 --> 00:29:05,365 Speaker 1: at the beginning of this case, a very small town, 495 00:29:06,525 --> 00:29:11,925 Speaker 1: so you don't have resources, you don't have highly developed, 496 00:29:12,285 --> 00:29:18,525 Speaker 1: intelligent police force, and you've got someone's family there who 497 00:29:18,605 --> 00:29:24,485 Speaker 1: is prestigious in the community, the district judge, I think 498 00:29:24,525 --> 00:29:28,485 Speaker 1: at the time, and all of those factors, But the 499 00:29:28,485 --> 00:29:32,725 Speaker 1: biggest factor that I perceived as I was proceeding through 500 00:29:32,765 --> 00:29:35,965 Speaker 1: the depositions is I don't think they really did a 501 00:29:36,005 --> 00:29:40,965 Speaker 1: good job of investigating or trying, and I think they 502 00:29:41,045 --> 00:29:45,045 Speaker 1: assumed that because this was a small town, and mister 503 00:29:45,365 --> 00:29:49,005 Speaker 1: Ward and his family were not sophisticated that they wouldn't 504 00:29:49,005 --> 00:29:51,445 Speaker 1: have to worry about it. I think that's what happened. 505 00:29:51,765 --> 00:29:55,845 Speaker 1: And then they found out differently when mister Ward said 506 00:29:56,285 --> 00:29:59,725 Speaker 1: had all these questions and they couldn't answer them because 507 00:29:59,725 --> 00:30:01,685 Speaker 1: they didn't do a good job in the first place. 508 00:30:02,085 --> 00:30:06,405 Speaker 1: They did a really bad job. Honestly, does not share 509 00:30:06,525 --> 00:30:10,285 Speaker 1: the dislike that the family had towards Tim Williamson. He 510 00:30:10,445 --> 00:30:13,405 Speaker 1: said they'd worked together in the court proceedings and they 511 00:30:13,485 --> 00:30:16,845 Speaker 1: had a mutual respect for each other. We'd heard from 512 00:30:16,925 --> 00:30:20,845 Speaker 1: some people that they thought Ron was uncooperative, but Selling 513 00:30:20,925 --> 00:30:24,245 Speaker 1: said Ron always shared all of the information he collected 514 00:30:24,285 --> 00:30:27,645 Speaker 1: independently with the police and with investigators. I don't think 515 00:30:27,685 --> 00:30:31,445 Speaker 1: anybody anything I had or that Ron had was kept secret. 516 00:30:31,725 --> 00:30:36,245 Speaker 1: What we tried to get were specific answers, and Tim 517 00:30:36,645 --> 00:30:39,885 Speaker 1: had a notebook, and I don't think I had that 518 00:30:39,965 --> 00:30:43,765 Speaker 1: notebook anymore. But it was just topic by topic with 519 00:30:45,605 --> 00:30:49,365 Speaker 1: you know, whatever the inconsistency was the or the question 520 00:30:49,485 --> 00:30:54,405 Speaker 1: that he had that wasn't answered, and I felt like 521 00:30:54,485 --> 00:30:56,245 Speaker 1: it was my job to try to answer it if 522 00:30:56,285 --> 00:30:59,325 Speaker 1: I could. And the way you try to answer it 523 00:30:59,365 --> 00:31:02,405 Speaker 1: is to go get the facts or the information through 524 00:31:02,445 --> 00:31:06,085 Speaker 1: depositions or whatever. And at the end of the day, 525 00:31:06,725 --> 00:31:11,685 Speaker 1: there were some questions that we couldn't answer and still can't. 526 00:31:12,405 --> 00:31:14,245 Speaker 1: As an investigator, this is a feeling that I can 527 00:31:14,285 --> 00:31:17,565 Speaker 1: relate to. And while you always want to give people answers, 528 00:31:17,605 --> 00:31:19,685 Speaker 1: and you always want to think that there's another step 529 00:31:19,685 --> 00:31:21,525 Speaker 1: that you can take or something that can be done, 530 00:31:22,205 --> 00:31:25,805 Speaker 1: the reality is, once mistakes are made at the initial 531 00:31:25,845 --> 00:31:29,285 Speaker 1: crime scene, it's very difficult to go back and rectify them. 532 00:31:29,365 --> 00:31:32,045 Speaker 1: Can you just in general, maybe not even about this case, 533 00:31:32,045 --> 00:31:35,485 Speaker 1: but just talking about the difficulty of if the original 534 00:31:35,485 --> 00:31:38,685 Speaker 1: crime scene is messed up, how difficult it is to 535 00:31:38,725 --> 00:31:41,285 Speaker 1: go back and if something's not done right. I mean, 536 00:31:41,605 --> 00:31:43,565 Speaker 1: is there something that the police could have done early 537 00:31:43,605 --> 00:31:47,005 Speaker 1: on like that would have mitigated that? I mean, just 538 00:31:47,045 --> 00:31:50,645 Speaker 1: from my experience with pure crime, I was looking through 539 00:31:50,685 --> 00:31:53,125 Speaker 1: the witness statements and they're very short. They're basically a 540 00:31:53,125 --> 00:31:56,605 Speaker 1: paragraph a long each and they're just there's no detail. 541 00:31:56,685 --> 00:31:58,645 Speaker 1: There's not much detail in any of them things like that. 542 00:31:58,805 --> 00:32:01,525 Speaker 1: I mean, is there anything that could have done to 543 00:32:02,325 --> 00:32:06,045 Speaker 1: I mean the reason that you have CSI all these 544 00:32:06,245 --> 00:32:10,485 Speaker 1: police shows is because every every fact is important, and 545 00:32:10,925 --> 00:32:14,165 Speaker 1: you can't say, oh, that's not important because you don't 546 00:32:14,165 --> 00:32:20,845 Speaker 1: know what was there. So photographs, statements from everybody, and 547 00:32:20,965 --> 00:32:24,765 Speaker 1: following up on every lead, and I don't that wasn't 548 00:32:24,805 --> 00:32:28,245 Speaker 1: done here for sure. The assumption was is that she 549 00:32:28,365 --> 00:32:33,645 Speaker 1: fell off, fell off and died, and so when you 550 00:32:33,685 --> 00:32:37,085 Speaker 1: work from that assumption, you're not really looking for anything else. 551 00:32:38,365 --> 00:32:41,645 Speaker 1: Was there anything else? I don't know. I could not 552 00:32:41,765 --> 00:32:45,405 Speaker 1: get that answer to the point that I could say 553 00:32:45,445 --> 00:32:48,925 Speaker 1: that was anything specifically. I mean, there were a lot 554 00:32:48,925 --> 00:32:53,765 Speaker 1: of irregularities in this and that's why Ron had questions, 555 00:32:53,805 --> 00:32:57,805 Speaker 1: and that's why it was pursued. But unfortunately it wasn't 556 00:32:57,925 --> 00:33:01,645 Speaker 1: pursued early enough. And that's not his fault because he 557 00:33:01,765 --> 00:33:05,845 Speaker 1: tried diligently to do it. But I think they assumed 558 00:33:05,845 --> 00:33:09,285 Speaker 1: that he was just a uh, someone who didn't know 559 00:33:09,325 --> 00:33:12,445 Speaker 1: what he was doing. I asked if Salings thought there 560 00:33:12,445 --> 00:33:15,205 Speaker 1: would have been any answer that would have satisfied Ron Ward. 561 00:33:15,285 --> 00:33:19,045 Speaker 1: I don't know Ron was. He was he was convinced 562 00:33:19,125 --> 00:33:23,365 Speaker 1: it was more than natural causes or falling off the 563 00:33:23,445 --> 00:33:26,245 Speaker 1: porch or any of a number of things. So I 564 00:33:26,285 --> 00:33:28,765 Speaker 1: don't know if he would have been or not. Maybe 565 00:33:28,765 --> 00:33:31,725 Speaker 1: if maybe Fuld. Maybe you felt they'd been treated with 566 00:33:31,765 --> 00:33:33,485 Speaker 1: more respect, and it was an answer that at least 567 00:33:33,525 --> 00:33:38,765 Speaker 1: made sense. Maybe, but maybe he was he was a stubborn, 568 00:33:38,845 --> 00:33:54,605 Speaker 1: determined man. Remember that after doctor Burnell's autopsy, there are 569 00:33:54,645 --> 00:33:57,765 Speaker 1: a lot of people looking into Janie's death. There's Tim 570 00:33:57,765 --> 00:34:02,005 Speaker 1: Williamson in his investigation. There's the family's lawyer, Jerry Sallings 571 00:34:02,045 --> 00:34:06,765 Speaker 1: doing depositions, and there's Mike Masterson's column it's now published 572 00:34:06,845 --> 00:34:11,085 Speaker 1: multiple times a week looking into Jannie's case. And there's 573 00:34:11,085 --> 00:34:17,525 Speaker 1: a film crew from ABC. The ABC producer contacts Sylvia, 574 00:34:18,085 --> 00:34:20,405 Speaker 1: the runner, who said she witnessed Jane getting hit in 575 00:34:20,405 --> 00:34:24,125 Speaker 1: the face with a baseball bat. Sylvia's information could be 576 00:34:24,205 --> 00:34:28,405 Speaker 1: crucial because it appears to match doctor Burnell's conclusion that 577 00:34:28,485 --> 00:34:31,765 Speaker 1: Jane could have been hit with a bluntfuls object. But 578 00:34:31,885 --> 00:34:35,205 Speaker 1: some people were critical of Sylvia. They point out that 579 00:34:35,245 --> 00:34:38,405 Speaker 1: she'd already given a statement in nineteen eighty nine, it's 580 00:34:38,445 --> 00:34:41,965 Speaker 1: included in the case file, and in this statement she 581 00:34:42,125 --> 00:34:46,405 Speaker 1: told a completely different story. When Sylvia was interviewed by 582 00:34:46,405 --> 00:34:49,405 Speaker 1: Tim Williamson in two thousand and six, he asked her 583 00:34:49,485 --> 00:34:52,965 Speaker 1: about inconsistencies in her story. He asked Sylvia about a 584 00:34:52,965 --> 00:34:55,725 Speaker 1: previous interview that she did in nineteen eighty nine with 585 00:34:55,805 --> 00:35:00,245 Speaker 1: an investigator named Robert Hicks at her home. In that interview, 586 00:35:00,565 --> 00:35:04,565 Speaker 1: Sylvia claimed she'd heard the story secondhand from three guys 587 00:35:04,725 --> 00:35:07,805 Speaker 1: who told her as story about two girls who were 588 00:35:07,805 --> 00:35:10,165 Speaker 1: mad at Janie because she was dating one of their boyfriends. 589 00:35:11,205 --> 00:35:14,445 Speaker 1: Sylvia said that the injury to Janie's neck came when 590 00:35:14,485 --> 00:35:17,725 Speaker 1: somebody hit her with a full beer bottle, and after that, 591 00:35:18,365 --> 00:35:20,525 Speaker 1: she said, some guy in a pickup truck took her 592 00:35:20,525 --> 00:35:23,725 Speaker 1: to the house to clean her up. In two thousand 593 00:35:23,765 --> 00:35:27,005 Speaker 1: and six, Sylvia denied to Tim Williamson that she ever 594 00:35:27,045 --> 00:35:30,205 Speaker 1: made that statement, but it's a part of the police 595 00:35:30,245 --> 00:35:34,445 Speaker 1: case file. Some people also criticized the fact that Sylvia 596 00:35:34,525 --> 00:35:37,485 Speaker 1: came forward with this new version of events after the 597 00:35:37,485 --> 00:35:42,965 Speaker 1: information about doctor Bannell's autopsy conclusions became public. Ron told 598 00:35:43,005 --> 00:35:45,765 Speaker 1: Bill Beach that he spoke to Sylvia and that Sylvia 599 00:35:45,845 --> 00:35:48,405 Speaker 1: told him a story about three girls and an older 600 00:35:48,445 --> 00:35:51,205 Speaker 1: guy jumping on Janne and beating her up by the river. 601 00:35:52,485 --> 00:35:55,965 Speaker 1: But when ABC interviewed Sylvia, she said that she witnessed 602 00:35:56,005 --> 00:35:59,005 Speaker 1: Sarah on the porch hitting Jane in the neck with 603 00:35:59,085 --> 00:36:03,365 Speaker 1: a baseball bat in the eyes of investigators, Sylvia lost 604 00:36:03,405 --> 00:36:06,085 Speaker 1: any credibility she had as a witness. Because of all 605 00:36:06,125 --> 00:36:11,485 Speaker 1: these inconsistencies. We were able to reach Tim Williamson. He's 606 00:36:11,485 --> 00:36:15,885 Speaker 1: no longer practicing law, but Janey's case remains vivid in 607 00:36:15,925 --> 00:36:18,645 Speaker 1: his mind. Well, thank you for talking to us, Kim, 608 00:36:18,685 --> 00:36:22,725 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. So you ended up with this case, now, 609 00:36:22,725 --> 00:36:24,525 Speaker 1: had you heard about it before you took it on? 610 00:36:25,405 --> 00:36:31,205 Speaker 1: I had recalled the headlines of the case from eighty nine, 611 00:36:31,405 --> 00:36:37,645 Speaker 1: and then I think I probably recalled some of the 612 00:36:37,685 --> 00:36:41,925 Speaker 1: discussions around the case that made to the made it 613 00:36:41,925 --> 00:36:46,685 Speaker 1: into the newsprint. Tim started investigating, but he couldn't reach 614 00:36:46,725 --> 00:36:50,165 Speaker 1: any new conclusions from the investigative evidence or from looking 615 00:36:50,205 --> 00:36:54,045 Speaker 1: back at the previous autopsies, and he especially couldn't see 616 00:36:54,085 --> 00:36:58,085 Speaker 1: any evidence of a homicide. As we got favored into it, 617 00:36:58,165 --> 00:37:03,525 Speaker 1: we were not developing additional information that was helping me 618 00:37:03,605 --> 00:37:05,885 Speaker 1: to decide, well, if this is a homicide, than who 619 00:37:05,885 --> 00:37:11,045 Speaker 1: did it. It got down to the point eventually, where 620 00:37:11,085 --> 00:37:12,965 Speaker 1: as I had some you know, we were looking at 621 00:37:13,005 --> 00:37:16,045 Speaker 1: the Thenell's findings and then going back and comparing those 622 00:37:16,125 --> 00:37:21,125 Speaker 1: with the photograss and the information collected the time doctor 623 00:37:21,165 --> 00:37:25,085 Speaker 1: Fane Malik for the crime that I did the original autopsy, 624 00:37:26,165 --> 00:37:31,125 Speaker 1: and it became apparent to me and to my investigators 625 00:37:31,845 --> 00:37:35,245 Speaker 1: that we had to get to the bottom of the 626 00:37:35,285 --> 00:37:39,525 Speaker 1: forensics on this because we truly felt because we had 627 00:37:39,845 --> 00:37:43,885 Speaker 1: too somewhat competing autosic reports, we had to get a 628 00:37:43,885 --> 00:37:49,325 Speaker 1: definitive position as to what the medical evidence and the 629 00:37:49,365 --> 00:37:53,525 Speaker 1: forensic evidence is, because inherently, you do not want to 630 00:37:53,565 --> 00:37:57,685 Speaker 1: attempt to prosecute a case or you have information that 631 00:37:57,845 --> 00:38:01,125 Speaker 1: is not corroborative of itself when it's in the forensic role. 632 00:38:01,845 --> 00:38:07,005 Speaker 1: So we're relying on science. The science has to agree. 633 00:38:07,085 --> 00:38:10,405 Speaker 1: So our only option was to do something that is 634 00:38:10,485 --> 00:38:13,165 Speaker 1: extremely rare, and we did not want to do it, 635 00:38:13,205 --> 00:38:16,125 Speaker 1: but we were left without choice. Much like the ward's 636 00:38:16,165 --> 00:38:19,685 Speaker 1: lawyer Jerry Sallings, Tim thought that there was no way 637 00:38:19,725 --> 00:38:23,085 Speaker 1: to solve the case through the investigative evidence, so he 638 00:38:23,205 --> 00:38:27,005 Speaker 1: decided there was one last thing he could do exhume 639 00:38:27,165 --> 00:38:33,645 Speaker 1: Janey's body again and perform another autopsy. I'm Katherine Townsend 640 00:38:34,525 --> 00:38:42,885 Speaker 1: and this is Helen Gone. Helen Gone is a joint 641 00:38:42,925 --> 00:38:47,325 Speaker 1: production between School of Humans and iHeartRadio. It is written 642 00:38:47,325 --> 00:38:51,445 Speaker 1: and recorded by me Katherine Townsend, Taylor Church, and Gabby 643 00:38:51,525 --> 00:38:55,925 Speaker 1: Watts are our producers and story editors. Executive producers are 644 00:38:55,925 --> 00:38:59,365 Speaker 1: Brandon Barr, Brian Lavin, and Els Crowley for School of 645 00:38:59,445 --> 00:39:03,765 Speaker 1: Humans and Conell Byrne and Chuck Bryant for iHeart Our 646 00:39:03,805 --> 00:39:07,965 Speaker 1: Field producer is Miranda Hawk. Theme and original score are 647 00:39:07,965 --> 00:39:12,125 Speaker 1: by Ben Sale, available wherever you get your music. Please 648 00:39:12,205 --> 00:39:15,965 Speaker 1: visit us at helengon podcast dot com or follow us 649 00:39:15,965 --> 00:39:30,525 Speaker 1: on social media. School of Humans