1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart radiom. My 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: mother kept secrets and spoke to me in a kind 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: of code. Nothing was straightforward. From childhood. I had to 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: figure out how to read her mind too intuite the 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: contours of her reality. If I developed empathy at first, 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't so much a way to find connection as 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: a survival strategy. My parents gave me burdens in childhood 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: that I honed into gifts. That's Sherry Turkle. Sherry is 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: a professor at m I T, where she is also 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: founding director of the m I T Initiative on Technology 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: and Self. Her most recent book is The Empathy Diaries, 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: a memoir. Sherry's is a layered story of many secrets 13 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: and swumming at the center of them all, a massive 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: secret she is asked to keep from the time she's 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: a a small child, one that slices to the core 16 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: of her identity. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, 17 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 18 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 19 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: There were two landscapes of my childhood. There was a 20 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: Brooklyn landscape and a Rockaway landscape. We lived in Brooklyn, 21 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: in the Flatbush section of Brooklyn, which were wonderful streets 22 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: with grocery stores and hardware stores and five and dimes 23 00:01:54,600 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: and richly textured urban environment. We lived near Prospect Park, Okay, 24 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: so there was a playground and great grounds. And Brooklyn 25 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: of my youth was a wonderful place for children. We 26 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: bounced balls and played Jack's on the sidewalk, and there 27 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: were hardly any cars, and it was really a very 28 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: idyllic street life, a kind of urban street life. It 29 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: made me love the texture of city life. But in 30 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: the house, the boundaries of our home, it was a 31 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: life where no strangers were allowed in the house. On 32 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: the other hand, at Rockaway, where we went in the summer, 33 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: we had the beach Um. Rockaway was very close to Brooklyn. 34 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: We went to the end of Church Avenue, and very 35 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: soon you were crossing a bridge and you were in 36 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: this state of land that was a world away from Brooklyn, 37 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: a kind of summer retreat for lower middle class of 38 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: working people in New York City. I think we paid 39 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: eighty dollars a season for our bungalow. In this bungalow colony, 40 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: you'd have eight or ten bungalows, five facing each other, 41 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: with a court that had three cement pavers that made 42 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: up this courtyard. And the social life of the summer 43 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: was organized around these ten bungalows in this court. And 44 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: there would be fireworks on the boardwalk on Wednesday, and 45 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: there would be maybe a party in the court once 46 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: a week, and that you played with the children in 47 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: the court. There was a generational thing where the older 48 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: people in the court watched the babies, you know, and 49 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: the teenager babies that for the younger children, and everybody 50 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 1: played majong, and everybody played cards. We amused each other 51 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: by singing to each other. It was really quite another time, 52 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: and this would have been in the in the fifties. 53 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: Again we had a court, we had neighbors. It was 54 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: a much more social world. But my grandparents were intensely 55 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: private and the life of our family was really enclosed 56 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: in the world of our family. So even though we 57 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: lived in a beach setting, we knew all the people 58 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: in that little court. No one came onto our porch 59 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: or into our home. We spoke porch to porch. So 60 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: my childhood was a combination of seeing people in social 61 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: spaces on the street, but really understanding that my family 62 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: was very turned inwards and lived a life of secrets 63 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: and privacy and almost kind of hyper vigilance, as though 64 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: we had secrets to hide, and we were just in 65 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: our family and didn't let people in. This not allowing 66 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: strangers in or anyone else in and staying on your 67 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: porch and talking to other people from that distance, was 68 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: that particular to you. I always knew that we were 69 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: special because we were keeping secrets. The secrets in Sherry's 70 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: family started out relatively small. The lies seemingly innocuous and silly, 71 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: stuff like her mother lied about her height or her age. 72 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: One time, her mom tried to pass off a store 73 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: bought knit beret a gift to Sherry, as something she 74 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: had knit herself. Even as a child, Sherry had the 75 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: sense that something was off. She knew she couldn't totally 76 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: trust the things her mother said or did. My world 77 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: of secrets begins with my mother's character and my mother's ability, 78 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: which I understood in so many ways, um to live 79 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: in the truth that pleased her. So for example, she 80 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: was five eleven or perhaps six ft tall. She was 81 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: very tall, and she didn't make her peace with that 82 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: until she found out that said Teris was five eleven, 83 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: and then somehow she admitted to me that she was 84 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: five eleven. She explained to me that when she was 85 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: a single woman, every time she went to get her 86 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: license renewed, she would explain to the women at the 87 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: Bureau of Motor Vehicles that she needed to shave some 88 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: inches off her height, because a single woman shouldn't be 89 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: five eleven. It's easier to get a husband if you 90 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: were five ten, or five nine or five eight. I 91 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: never quite understood that, but she had gotten herself down 92 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: to five seven, which was preposterous. By the time she died, 93 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: I actually looked in her handbag. I mean she was 94 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: down to five seven, which, as I say, was preposterous 95 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: because she was a beautiful, tall, magnificent woman. And she 96 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: had also gotten her age down to kind of a 97 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: permanent twenty nine. She was twenty nine when she married 98 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: my father, and she was twenty nine six years later 99 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: when she when she married her second husband. And again 100 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: the way this was done, which was kind of by 101 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: just explaining to the women at the registrate for motor vehicles, 102 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: you know that she just needed to be younger to 103 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: catch a husband, or to not far to make her 104 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: husband feel more comfortable with her age. I don't know 105 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: how she did it, but she aged very little. According 106 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: to the records the New York Records Department, the film 107 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: she told about the hat is particularly interesting, and there 108 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: was I have a very clear memory of her coming 109 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: to pick me up. I was at my grandparents house 110 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: and she shows me this white hat that she's this 111 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: little knit hat that she said she had knit for me, 112 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: and I had seen it in a five and ten 113 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: store near my grandparents home, and I knew she hadn't knitted, 114 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to do. I was kind 115 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: of paralyzed because I didn't understand, you know. I think 116 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,559 Speaker 1: I said thank you, but it upset me for years 117 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: and years and years, this lie and seeing her as 118 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: as somebody who would tell lies that I couldn't understand. 119 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: I couldn't understand their meaning or why. I kind of 120 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: understood why she wanted to be shorter or younger, but 121 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: why this hat, Why the hat. Indeed, what Sherry couldn't 122 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 1: have realized at the time when she was given that 123 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: hat at the age of eight, was that her mother 124 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: had been coming from a doctor's appointment at which she 125 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: had received a scary diagnosis. So when she was coming 126 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: home from the doctor to pick Sherry up from her 127 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: grandparents house, she saw the knit cap at the five 128 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: and dime and decided to bring her daughter a gift. 129 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: But what came out of her mouth when she presented it, 130 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: perhaps as a way of connecting with Sherry during a 131 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: worrying time, was I made this for you. I'm so 132 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: struck by your mother's fantasies and her aspirations, but more 133 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: than anything, her ability to bend the world to her will. 134 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: She wanted to be a mother who would have knit 135 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: that cap for you, So she became that in that moment. 136 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: My guess is that she was not aware at all 137 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: that she was lying. In that moment, she just decided 138 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: that that was so, the same way she decided she 139 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: wasn't five eleven, or that she was twenty nine. Yes. Yes, 140 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: in these moments, she was taken up by how she 141 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: wanted the world to be. I think that's exactly right, 142 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: that she was capable of becoming house she wanted to 143 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: could be, and being the person she wanted to be. 144 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: You know, in technical terms, they say that you know 145 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:11,599 Speaker 1: the neurotic style of hysteric is that they believe their wish, 146 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: the lies they tell is the deepest possible wish. And 147 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: I think that these wishes really structured her, her character, 148 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: These wishes for herself, these wishes for me, really became 149 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: who she was, really became who she was. It's striking 150 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: me too that you know, when you were a child, 151 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: you lived in a Kosher style um and what that 152 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: meant was that in the home there wasn't work, and 153 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: there wasn't shrimp, and you know, there wasn't seafood and 154 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: milk and dairy and meat would be I suppose not 155 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: eaten together. But when you would go out, particularly on Sundays, 156 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: the Jewish ritual of going out for Chinese food on Sundays, 157 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: that you know, all bets were off, like apparently in 158 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: Chinese restaurants, pork was okay. Yes, these were my grandmother's 159 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: ways putting the world together. But the Kosher laws meant 160 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: was what you did in your home is where these 161 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: kosher laws applied. And then what you did outside that 162 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: was a completely different story. None of the rules needed 163 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: to apply there, so pork on the outside didn't count 164 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: as breaking the rules. And again it's making the world 165 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: fit the way you want the world to be. It's 166 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: very my family. In my family, certainly people constructed the 167 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: world the way they wanted it to be. Beyond knit 168 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: hats and secret pork, the greatest secret at the center 169 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: of Sherry's childhood was her her own identity, her very name. 170 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: My name was Sherry Zimmerman, and I hadn't seen that 171 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: name or heard that name really until I started school, 172 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: and legally that name had to be on a piece 173 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: of paper. But I was just part of the Bonnerwits clan, 174 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: which was my family name by my grandparents name. My 175 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: mother had divorced my father, whose name was Charles Zimmerman, 176 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: and when she went back to live with her parents, 177 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: Robert and Edith Bonnowitz, I was just Erry. I was 178 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: told that I was never to mention my father or 179 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: his name. They were constructing a world in which, because 180 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: your mother was divorced when you were very young, and 181 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: divorce was quite uncommon in that milieu, that somehow simply 182 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: you didn't have a father, and you weren't allowed to 183 00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: speak or even know anything really about this mysterious person 184 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: and who had been your father and had briefly been 185 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: your mother's husband. His name was never said. I knew 186 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: not to say it or ask anything. It was one 187 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: of those things that it was completely foreclosed. It was 188 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: not you know, it was not like you could ask 189 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: a question and be told we're not talking about that. 190 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: You just knew not to ask. We'll be back in 191 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: a moment with more family secrets. Sherry's mother remarries a 192 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: man named Milton Turkle, and together they have two children. 193 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: These kids think that Sherry is their biological sister, while 194 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: Sherry silently carries the truth of where she comes from. 195 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: So often when secrets are kept, there are times when 196 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: one is asked to become a secret keeper, and you're 197 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: at child, you're being told you must keep something as 198 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: fundamental as your name a secret, and you live in 199 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: fear of slipping up. There are a few incidents, were 200 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,599 Speaker 1: a few moments when I do slip up. Not many, 201 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: but there's one in particular when I do. And it's 202 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: at a girl scout meeting and we're going around, and 203 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: you know, we're asked to say our name, and I 204 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: say that my name is Sherry Zimmerman, and my mother 205 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: is stricken. She clearly doesn't know what to do. I mean, 206 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: it isn't that she's angry. Of course she is angry, 207 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: but more than angry, I've outed her. She doesn't know 208 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: what to do. Looking back, I have pity on myself 209 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: actually because I realized the terrible weight that I was holding, 210 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: because when I slipped up, the pain that I caused 211 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: was terrible, and the pain being uttering your real name. Yes, 212 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: I mean that the gesture was so tiny, it's so 213 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: natural that I did it. I meant no harm. You know, 214 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: I was tired. It was an evening to meeting, and 215 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: i'd all day. I had been Sherry' Zimmerman at the 216 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: school that was kind of out of the way, and 217 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: you know, I was sort of sent to a school 218 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: as far away as possible from from where our social 219 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: life was. And yet at this meeting, I don't know. 220 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: I just said the truth, and the truth was it 221 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: was an impossible truth. It was truly a secret. I 222 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: mean it wasn't like a little secret. It was a 223 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: secret that would fracture this family that was built on 224 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: a lie. And I really have such pity and compassion 225 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: for myself and for her, who couldn't make a life 226 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: where this could be known, who felt that she couldn't 227 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: do that. It's so interesting too that you did have 228 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: that slip. It was in front of your mother. Could 229 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: it could have been somewhere else, It could have been 230 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: in some other circumstance where your mother hadn't been in 231 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: the room, But it happened when your mother was in 232 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: the room. Yes, and many psychoanalyzes later. I mean I thought, 233 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: on some level, was that an act of rebellion. I'll 234 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: never know, but there's there's obviously some part of that 235 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: could have been wanting to somehow have some moment of 236 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: truth with her. But what happened, Danny, what happened and 237 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: was so telling, was that she didn't yell at me. 238 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: She didn't speak of it. We didn't speak for I 239 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: think two weeks. And this was a woman who was 240 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: talking to me all the time. I you know, we 241 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: were talking and talking in our you know, our way 242 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: of relating was to tell stories and talk. I mean, 243 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: I got my love of language from my mother. She 244 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: couldn't to me for two weeks, and it wasn't really 245 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: in anger. It was really because she didn't know what 246 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: to say. This was so fundamental, this secret was so fundamental. 247 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: I mean, she i don't think she knew how to 248 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: handle it. In her circle. She was my troop leader. 249 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: She was the leader of this girl's got true. And 250 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: I think it really raised the question for her as 251 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: to whether or not she was going to start to 252 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: tell people or And I think what happened was that 253 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,479 Speaker 1: people sort of start, you know, put two and two together, 254 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: and they sort of I think this was a secret 255 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: that many people knew about. But she just let people 256 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: assume what they wanted to and never confronted him. After 257 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: Sherry is not so Freudian slip, Milton and Sherry's mother 258 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: decide it's time to pursue Sherry's official adoption, for her 259 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: to take Milton's name. That will make things simpler, right, 260 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: But there's this all matter of Charles Zimmerman, who objects 261 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: to the adoption and insists on seeing her. Sherry visits 262 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: her biological father a few times until her mother puts 263 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: a stop to the visits. Of course, Sherry yearns to 264 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: know him. At the custody hearing, the judge turns to 265 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: her and asks the question, do you love your father? 266 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: I was afraid to say no, I don't love my father. 267 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: I mean I didn't want to never see him again. 268 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: So I said, yes, I love him, and then I 269 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: immediately saw my mother turn her face away since this 270 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: was just it was like the worst thing that I 271 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: could have said. And so the judge then says, go 272 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: over and kiss him. And I made to kiss Charles Zimmerman, 273 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: and that I look again at my mother, who's again 274 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: averting her eyes, and I'm taken out of the room. 275 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: This was actually one of the for me, most terrible 276 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: incidents of my childhood, because what had taught me is 277 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: that you have a decision. Any choice is the wrong choice, 278 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: because if I had said I didn't love Charles Immerman, 279 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: I would never have seen my father again. And if 280 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: I said I loved him, well, my mother was stricken. 281 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: And it turned out that I didn't get to see 282 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: Charles Zimmerman much. I saw him maybe once or twice again, 283 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: and then my mother found another way to put a 284 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: stop to it. I mean, my mother was determined that 285 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: I would not see him very much. She had her 286 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: own reasons to be frightened at him, which I learned later. 287 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: Remember how Sherry's mother had received a frightening diagnosis just 288 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: before buying her that knit hat, Well, that was yet 289 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: another family secret, the secret of her mother's cancer. It 290 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: was very common in those days to hide illness from 291 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: children and even other family members. Doctors and the medical 292 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: establishment believed this was for the best. Sherry's mother receives 293 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: a mass ectomy and undergoes treatment. The Cherry doesn't know 294 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: or see. You write something that I was particularly taken with, 295 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: which is when we don't want to know the truth, 296 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: we don't hear the truth spoken to us, or we 297 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: don't see what's playing as a day in front of 298 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: our eyes because we can't afford to yes. That whole 299 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: story of my mother's cancer and how it unfolded, which 300 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: really was over a nine year period from her diagnosis 301 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: to her death, is really a story of my being 302 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: given a tremendous We're having access to a great deal 303 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: of information and not putting it together. She didn't want 304 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: me to know because she wanted me to go away 305 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: to college. This was her focus. She knew. But if 306 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: I knew that she was as ill as she was, 307 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have gone away to college. I would have 308 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: lived at home, and I would have wanted to commute 309 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: to a college in New York City. I mean, I 310 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: just would have That was the nature of my relationship 311 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: with her. Sherry does indeed go away to college, to 312 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: Radcliffe in Cambridge, Massachusetts, the university that has long been 313 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: her dream. She's a brilliant student and finally is exactly 314 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: where she wants to be. But then in her junior year, 315 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: during exam week, she receives a call that changes her life. 316 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: I get a you know, a note from the dean, 317 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: and they bring it to me in the library. Call home, 318 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: go home, Go to Brooklyn Hospital. There's no one at 319 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,479 Speaker 1: home to call. Go to Brooklyn Hospital, and I just 320 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: go and I talked to a doctor, and as we 321 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: have a kind of miscommunication, I realize he's telling me 322 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: my mother has ten days to live. And I realized 323 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: I behave as though I'm listening to new information, and 324 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: part of me knows that I know. And I've never 325 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: forgotten that feeling. I've never forgotten that feeling of almost 326 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: pretending that I'm learning something new and not knowing if 327 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: I'm pretending I'm learning something new or am I It 328 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 1: was just an out of body experience, and that feeling 329 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 1: has never left me. I can read, I can summon 330 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: it even as we speak. I was given so many 331 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: clues that she was ill, and yet I didn't know 332 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: she was ill. But when I find out, when I'm 333 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: told she's ill, I almost have to pretend I'm surprised, 334 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: because part of me obviously knows and has known something 335 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: was in this, and it only raises that question of 336 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: what we know. We can't say you know what's unconscious. 337 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: I want to say it was unconscious, because really, if 338 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: you would say, as your mom ill, I would have 339 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: said no, and I behaved as though she was not. 340 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: Sherry's mother dies, and after her death, the dynamic between 341 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: Sherry and Milton Turkle grows ever more fraught. He refuses 342 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: to do the paperwork that would allow her to have 343 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: clearance for her senior year scholarship at Radcliffe. He wants 344 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: her to stop going to school so she can stand 345 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: in for her mother and care for her younger siblings. 346 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: I think he saw no way forward raising these two children. 347 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: They were aid and eleven by himself. I think he 348 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: thought that was completely beyond him, and he saw me 349 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: as the Not only was I to see could keeper, 350 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: but I was considered sort of the adult in the family. 351 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: I was the designated adult, which was another actually a 352 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: great burden, you know, if there was a handyman coming, 353 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: if there was a you know, I was sent to, 354 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, sort of make sure he did a good 355 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: job and pay him and get the receipt. And I 356 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: was kind of the person who was most even when 357 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: a child, who was considered most most capable to sort 358 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: of deal with the outside world. And this was my 359 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: family being very insular, the shadow of the Holocaust being 360 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: weighing very heavily on them. They're wanting to keep to themselves. 361 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: And in this case, I mean, I just think he 362 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: felt he could not imagine being in charge of what 363 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: was ahead for him. He used the phrase you in 364 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: the old country, the eldest daughter would do it. It 365 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: just was it was his kind of way of summing 366 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: up that there was a way of thinking about this 367 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: where it was a natural thing for me to take 368 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: this on. I no longer think of it as malevolent. 369 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: I think it was deeply selfish. I think it was 370 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: him not being able to put himself in my place. 371 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: It was the anti empathy moment of it was my 372 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: learning empathy by having someone behaved there's no empathy towards me. 373 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 1: But I don't know if he wanted to be cruel 374 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: to me. I think he felt bereft. I think when 375 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: people feel bereft, they just behave in a crazy way 376 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: and what they see as their self interest. And I 377 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: think that's what's happening with with Milton and his response 378 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: to me, and so he kind of pulls the ultimate 379 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: power play and I just leave. In fact, I dropped 380 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 1: out of college, but I don't come home to take 381 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: care of my sister and brother. I go to Paris. 382 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: There's kind of running through your story something that I 383 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: relate to, which is that it's really a story of survivor, 384 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: of you know, sort of ultimately, you might have gone 385 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: home and taken care of your younger brother and sister, 386 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 1: and that would have completely altered the course of your life. 387 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: And you don't you do what's necessary to survive and 388 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: to thrive. Yes, we'll be right back. Sherry does eventually 389 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: end up finishing her undergrad and soon after attends graduate 390 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: school at Harvard, where she studies sociology and psychology. This 391 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: is where she first encounters the seminal concept gname duper 392 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: name of the father, as developed by French psychoanalyst Jacques Lacom. 393 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: Like you when people say to me will psychoanalysis is 394 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: so passe, the notion of the unconscious? Why do you 395 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: become a psychoagonal? Why do it psycho one of the training? 396 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: What's the use of it? I always say, well, there's 397 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: no way for me to experience the story of my 398 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: life and not believe in the unconscious, because I was 399 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: working through all my life, including yesterday, the fact that 400 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: I was not allowed to know the name of my father, 401 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: and yet I never made the connection until deep into 402 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: my life. That the first serious topic that I study 403 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: in graduate school when it's time to write a thesis 404 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: a dissertation is a psychoanalyst whose theory is based on 405 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: the importance of the name of the father who Jacques 406 00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: dot Com and I never made that connection. Thesis was 407 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: not particularly on the CON's theories on the infatuation with 408 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: Freud and France and why after May sixty eight did 409 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: everyone want to become a psychoanalyst. So it was really 410 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: kind of sociological study. It was kind of an intellectual 411 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: history mystery. Was a very exciting thesis of you know, 412 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: why certain ideas take hold at different times. I never 413 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: put together that I was studying somebody who studies names 414 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: of fathers. And then, of course I'm in Paris, I'm 415 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: listening to this lecture about names of fathers, and I 416 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: find myself weeping, and it hits me that I'm hearing 417 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: about my own life. You know, it's hard to believe 418 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: how the unconscious works. Well, of course I'm weeping. I'm 419 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: there in Powers studying the most important question of my life, 420 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: and I sort of had to collect myself and it 421 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: was a transformative moment. And Lacan is someone who I 422 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: mean to briefly state this theory. He basically saying that 423 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: accepting the name of the father is the moment when 424 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: you take in the social world. That psychoanalysis is not 425 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: just about the family romance, you know, mommy, Daddy, you 426 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: It's about taking in the rules and the structure of 427 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: language and the way in which that captures the rules 428 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: of the social structure in which you live. And that 429 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: happens by entering into this order that he calls the 430 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: symbolic order. That's where language and society and the social 431 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: world comes into with your taking on the father's name. 432 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: And really, when he means the father's name, he means 433 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: not just the name, but the structure. Let's say that 434 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: patriarch society that we live in. You know, that was 435 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: going to be pretty complicated for me if I wasn't 436 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: even allowed to say my father's name, or if there 437 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: was some confusion if there was a father or a 438 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: father who had to be erased. Sherry's now in her 439 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: late twenties, living in Cambridge, still attending Harvard, but she 440 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: makes frequent trips back to Brooklyn to care for her 441 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: ailing grandmother. It's during these trips, perhaps spurred on by 442 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: her graduate studies, that her absent father begins to haunt 443 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: her and she begins to actively look for him. On 444 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: every trip, I would stop at the airport and go 445 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: through the Manhattan telephone book because we didn't have a 446 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: Manhattan telephone book in our home, but there was one 447 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: at the airport, and I would get to the flight early, 448 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: or remember one time the flight was delayed, and I 449 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: would spend as much time as I could copying down 450 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: Charles Zimmerman's from the Manhattan telephone book. And then of 451 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 1: course I tried to Queen's telephone book and you know, 452 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: whatever telephone books I could find to try to get 453 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: the names and addresses of all the Charles Zimmerman's in 454 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: New York was trying to figure out who might be 455 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: my Charles Zimmerman. And this was the beginning. I mean 456 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: I did this obsessively. You know, hundreds and hundreds and 457 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: hundreds of Charles Zimmerman's. I don't know what I was 458 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: planning to do with these names, write them all or 459 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: you know, I was going to sift through them, or 460 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: it was starting my quest Why do you think why 461 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: that moment was it because your grandmother was dying, Why 462 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,479 Speaker 1: at that moment did it become the need to know 463 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: sort of really just rose up and took hold of you. 464 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: My compact with my mother to not find my father. 465 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,239 Speaker 1: She had not wanted me to find him, She had 466 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: not wanted him in my life, and that promise, that 467 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: understanding was with her. And I think that with my 468 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: grandmother's death, her mother's death, I felt liberated that I 469 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: would no longer be hurting. You know that now I 470 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: could now act on my behalf. I could now say 471 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: I could answer this question for myself. I think the 472 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: death of these two women was very important to me. 473 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: And her sister was still alive and I spoke to 474 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: her about it, and she didn't like it, but she 475 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: helped me. My aunt, Mildred gave me a crucial piece 476 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: of information that he had been a teacher in the 477 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: New York public schools and that was the key piece 478 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: of information and let me find him. But she didn't 479 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: know why my mother had left him. She did not 480 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: know the secret. She did not know the mystery. It's 481 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: not until several years later, when she has a job 482 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,239 Speaker 1: teaching at m I T that Terry decides to use 483 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: much of her first year's earnings to hire a detective. 484 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: Writing random Charles Zimmerman's from the phone book is getting 485 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: her nowhere. With the help of the detective and a 486 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,479 Speaker 1: key bit of information provided by her aunt, eventually Sherry 487 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: does find him and they meet to an epic meeting 488 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: because I write him and I you know, I write 489 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: him the letter and I say that I believe that 490 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: I'm your daughter, and here the circumstances so that we 491 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: last connect, and I would very much like to renew 492 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: our acquaintance. As soon as he got it, he called 493 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: me back. I had given him a number to call, 494 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: and we make a date for the following weekend and 495 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: I go to his house. At the time, I was married, 496 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: and I tell my husband we agree he's going to 497 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: stay back at the hotel and I will call him 498 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: if I need him, and I go to his houses 499 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: in Queen's I'm struck by how he looks like me. 500 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: I opened the door in his fos moment when I'm 501 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: so I'm so emotionally, kind of just taken over by 502 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: the fact that of course I'm looking at someone who 503 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: looks like me. It's just just an emotional moment. And 504 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: he says to me, did you find me through the 505 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: New York Times? At the time, there was like a 506 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: set of advertisements in New York subways, like I found 507 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 1: my jobs at the New York Times. And I'm thinking, 508 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: did he was he advertising for me all these years 509 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: that I was going to the mailbox and hoping to 510 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: have like a birthday card or Hanecker card? Or did 511 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: I find him through the New York Times? And I 512 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: had this moment of warmth and happiness that he'd been 513 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: looking for me. And he shows me the ad that 514 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 1: he's been placing in the New York Times, which says 515 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: he wells MC squared is not correct. Queen's high school 516 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,919 Speaker 1: teacher disproves Einstein and for more information, and there's a 517 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: post office box, and his ad in the New York 518 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: Times is about him having a pamphlet that disproves Einstein. 519 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: He thinks he's he thinks there was a mistake in 520 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: Einstein's theory, and then all of a sudden he's talking 521 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: about Michaelson Morley and the mistakes and Michaelson and the algebra, 522 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: Michaelson Orley. I mean, he's like into his theory of 523 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 1: how he's disproved Einstein, and he's like completely forgotten even 524 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: in the room. I mean, he's like into his disproof 525 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: of Einstein and giving me, you know, getting copies ready 526 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: for me. And it turns out that he was He 527 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 1: was a rogue scientist who had published two books, one 528 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: on raw food Vegetarianism and World Peace, where he argues 529 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: that only people who were raw food vegetarian should be 530 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: able to leave governments because there'll be more peaceful and 531 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: this disproof of Einstein has written several books on that. 532 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: So bottom line is that as the conversation continues, I 533 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: learned that my mother left him because when I was 534 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: a baby, the scientific bent of his had expressed itself 535 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: by his doing skinner like experiments on me not speaking 536 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: to me for a certain amount of time and seeing 537 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: what happened, putting me in a dark room for a 538 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: certain amount of time and seeing what happened, and all 539 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: the different kinds of skinner box experiments that people were 540 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:54,479 Speaker 1: doing at that time. Skinner box experiments, simply put, these 541 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: were psychological experiments that studied the effects of positive and 542 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: negative reinforcement using rats. Yes, rats, not humans, and most 543 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: definitely not babies. And these were secret. My mother didn't 544 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: know anything about them, and he did them when she 545 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: was out shopping or visiting me, whenever she was not 546 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: with me. He did them private. And then once she 547 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: came back early from going shopping and she found him 548 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: at an experiment where he had left me alone in 549 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: a dark room and was trying to extend the amounts 550 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: of time that I would tolerate them. So they were 551 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: deprivation experiments at that point, I was one year old 552 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: when she found him at this experiment. She called her 553 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: sister to pick her up and to pick me up, 554 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 1: and she packed some diapers and a few pieces of clothing, 555 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: and apparently in some eggs from the supermarket, and we 556 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 1: went back to my grandparents house and never returned and 557 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: that's the story of our departure and the end of 558 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: that marriage. And as your father is telling you this 559 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: story during this meeting that you're having with him for 560 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: the first time in many years, he's telling it to you, 561 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: it sounds like, you know, somewhat sort of proudly. Yes, 562 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: he's very proud of these experiments. I would say I 563 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: went into a sort of dissociated state where I sort 564 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: of could see myself sitting there at the table, listening 565 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 1: to him, watching myself trying to be present to him, 566 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: as I sort of sad at someplace else, maybe across 567 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,959 Speaker 1: the room, watching these two people talk. Because it was unbearable. 568 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: You know. I wanted to keep this conversation going. I 569 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: wanted to not stop him from talking. I wanted to 570 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 1: hear this story desperately. I wanted to hear about these experiments, 571 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: but I couldn't bear to. So I sort of had 572 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 1: this experience of removing myself and kept a piece of 573 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: me sitting at the table with the coffee cup, letting 574 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: him talk to that sherry as part of me just 575 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: drifted away. It was an experience that I had never 576 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: really had before. And he tells me the story and 577 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: then actually I protected myself because I immediately then called 578 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: my husband because I wanted him to hear all this. 579 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: You need a witness. I needed a witness, and I 580 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: wanted to hear this whole thing over again because I, 581 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, I just was by this point, I'm in 582 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: an altered state. And my husband was a computer scientist 583 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: and trying to a great mathematician. And my husband showed up. 584 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: And now my my father, Charles Zimmerman, uh, now he 585 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: has a bona fide m i T. Mathematician in the 586 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: room who understands he can read his equations and the 587 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: Michaelson Morley experiment and the mistakes. And they're sitting there together, 588 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: and Charlie is so excited, and he's going through the 589 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 1: mistakes and the and I can watch them together as 590 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: Charlie is explaining how he's right and Einsstein is wrong, 591 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: and Charlie is getting all excited about how he's going 592 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: to be famous with these disproof of Einstein. And I understood. 593 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: And over the next many years, my understanding would deepened 594 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 1: of why my mother had feared the man and had 595 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: just wanted me to never see him. And I I 596 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:16,879 Speaker 1: learned to feel a deep and deepening and deepening empathy 597 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: and compassion and understanding of how she had fled. She 598 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: had wanted to protect me, she had felt frightened and ashamed, 599 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: and she never wanted to talk about this. She did 600 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: not want this to be part of her story and 601 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: my story. Actually, Rabbis who have spoken to since have 602 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: said that some might have shunned me as being the 603 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: child of such a person, as though I might carry 604 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: his madness. It's even been suggested to me that I 605 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: would have been unmarriageable in some Jewish beliefs. She might 606 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: have even have grown up with that kind of background, 607 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,439 Speaker 1: from a more traditional background than I'm from. I think 608 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: there was just a lot to it. She was in 609 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,359 Speaker 1: over her head and this was something that she had 610 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: to completely erase. Yeah, it makes so much sense. This 611 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: is the secret. This secret was not shared with my grandmother. 612 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: The secret was not shared with her, my grandfather, or 613 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: my aunt. None of them knew this secret. This story 614 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: of the experiments was something that when I went to 615 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: my aunt and tell her about Charlie and what I found, 616 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: this is new to her. You know, she knows that 617 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: he's bad, she knows that he's crazy. But my they're 618 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: told her family that she was unhappy in this marriage. 619 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: But this was a secret she bore alone. She was 620 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: so frightened at this secret. So this was her secret too. 621 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 1: So I was a secret keeper, but she was a 622 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: secret keeper as well. It took me a while to 623 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: find a way to tell the story of who Charles 624 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: Zimmerman was because it was a lot to talk about 625 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: the experiments that he had done on me, because I was, 626 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, in psychoanalysis, and I was working through what 627 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: that meant to me. You know, we'll never know, I'll 628 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: never know really what that meant to me, but I 629 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: was certainly talking a lot about it, and it was 630 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: you know, it didn't come trippingly off the tongue to 631 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: talk to people about those experiments because I didn't want 632 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,840 Speaker 1: to say something that style about them. It was a 633 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: lot to talk about. It took many years, and I 634 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: think my psychoanalytic work and therapy to be able to, 635 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: you know, to kind of talk about and write about 636 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,879 Speaker 1: what the discovery of Charles Zimmerman had been like as 637 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 1: an experience. But I could talk about that I kept 638 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,839 Speaker 1: the secret and that it had been corrosive, and I 639 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: was done with that. Family secrets is a production of 640 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Molly z a Core is the story 641 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. If you 642 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: have a family secret you'd like to share, please leave 643 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: us a voicemail and your story could appear on an 644 00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 1: upcoming episode. Our number is one Secret zero. That's the 645 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: number zero. You can also find me on Instagram at 646 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: Danny writer. And if you'd like to know more about 647 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,280 Speaker 1: the story that inspired this podcast, check out my memoir 648 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:33,720 Speaker 1: Inheritance m M. For more podcasts for My heart Radio, 649 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,720 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 650 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,360 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.