WEBVTT - What is a Cult? With Dr. Janja Lalich 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.600 Since the nineteen eighties, more than two and a half 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:08.360 million Americans have been pulled into a cult. It's estimated 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:13.800 there are three thousand active cultic groups in America alone. 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:18.159 From Nexium to the Branch Davidians in Waco, from the 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:23.560 Scandal at Sarah Lawrence to Bickram Yoga, Wild Wild Country 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:29.200 to Heaven's Gate. Everyone is talking about them, But what 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:34.960 makes a cult a cult? How do they wield such power? 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:41.400 On this fascinating episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm honored to 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.440 speak with doctor Yanya Lalich, one of the world's foremost 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.919 experts on cults and coercion, who lost ten years of 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.080 her life when she was lured into a radical political 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.400 group that turned out to be a cult. 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:58.720 She reveals the. 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:02.800 Role of narcissism at the heart of every cult and 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:08.760 breaks down the frightening tactics they use to systematically coerce millions. 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.000 This podcast should not be used as a substitute for 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:19.000 medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:24.759 independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:29.959 professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:36.680 or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:41.480 episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:46.240 The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:51.400 podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:56.360 not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions. iHeartMedia 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:02.560 or their employees. Doctor Yanya. Such an honor to meet you. 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.920 I just love your work. It's so complimentary to the 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:09.279 work I do on narcissism in individual relationships. 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:09.960 Well, thank you. 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:12.240 It's wonderful to meet you as well, and I love 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:13.280 your books as well. 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:18.960 You spend a lot of time helping people who have 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:24.280 left cult organized systems, or who are trying to leave, 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:26.679 or even people who've gotten drawn in, and you talk 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:27.960 to their family members. 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:31.600 And cults are a big word out there. Every other day. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:33.959 There's a new documentary about it called This is Top 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.920 of Mind for People. So let's just start with basics. 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.000 Can you define what a cult is? 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:42.200 Okay? 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:48.320 A cult is essentially a closed social system, and it 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:52.120 has four features that are important to me. The authoritarian 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:58.919 or charismatic leader, the transcendent brief system, the systems of control, 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:02.520 and the systems of influence. The first is that it 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:08.280 has an authoritarian leader who is most often almost always 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:13.120 a narcissist, and who demands all loyalty and all obedience, 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.280 and you're not allowed to question that person. And the 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:22.440 leader is typically the founder or the originator of the 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:26.560 belief system. So the second feature is the belief system, 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:30.680 which I call a transcendent belief system, and by that 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.400 I mean it's an ideology or a belief system that 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:38.240 basically gives you the answer to everything, the past, the present, 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.360 and the future. And the philosophy behind the belief system 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:47.800 is the end justifies the means. Once you have a 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:52.400 philosophy that says the end justifies the means, that means 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.320 you can be asked to do anything, and as long 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.280 as it's in the service of the goals of the 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:04.480 organization or the leader's wishes, it's okay. So that puts 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.360 people into a kind of a sticky wicket because most 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.960 people come into the cult unless they're born in it, 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.080 with their own sense of morality, and over time they 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.480 have to give up their own morality to what I say, 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:23.520 the immorality of the leader because they are following these 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:28.520 end justifies the means orders. And the third and fourth 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:34.320 features are systems of influence and systems of control. What 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.440 I mean by systems of control are the very overt 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:42.279 rules and regulations, So that would be things like they 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.480 may have you a dressing a certain way, speaking a 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:46.320 certain way. 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.039 They may have rules about. 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.320 Who you can marry or not marry, how many children 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.520 to have, how to raise the children, where to live, 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.920 who to live with, et cetera, et cetera. These are 0:04:55.960 --> 0:05:02.520 the very obvious control mechanisms. Savvius are the systems of influence. 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:07.960 These are the social psychological techniques or tactics that prey 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:12.400 on your emotions. So this is where they're pushing your buttons, right, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.520 They're preying on guilt and shame and love and anger 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.840 and fear. Right, And since we have responded to those 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.920 things all of our lives, mostly, we immediately don't pick 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.880 up that there's something wrong here, that my buttons are 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:30.760 being pushed all the time, right, and that I'm reacting 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.640 in this way. The purpose of that which is basically 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.839 and those two combined, the controls and the influences, the 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:41.560 purpose of that which is the indoctrination system. 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.120 Is to attack the self. 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.960 The cult essentially wants to take apart yourself so that 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:52.440 they can rebuild you as a cult persona. Right, So 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:56.599 they want to get rid of your instincts, your sense 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.680 of self trust, your belief in yourself, your self confidence, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.200 et cetera. So you will essentially be kind of torn 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:09.880 down without necessarily realizing it and built back up according 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.520 to the principles of the group. So those are the 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:17.480 four features. And then, of course most of these groups 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:24.479 are exploiting people in some way, either sexually, financially, certainly, emotionally. 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:26.520 Sometimes all three. 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:31.160 You to me literally just described a narcissistic relationship. 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:33.719 Right is you've. 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:40.240 Talked about an authoritarian person who expects and almost requires 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:47.520 loyalty and obedience. They have this belief system that it 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:49.440 almost feels like a permanent gaslighting. 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:50.800 It's not falsifiable. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:54.440 You cannot ever give evidence to the contrary because if 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:57.400 you do, it will not be heard and integrated, but 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.320 you will be shut down, right and you'll be told 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.719 there's something wrong with you. And then you brought up 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.880 something so important when you were talking about this transcendent 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:12.160 belief system, which is this almost this slide in morality, 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:16.960 the things that you ethical systems, even legal adherents and 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.640 moral codes. You once adhered to, you start giving up 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.840 on those so you can survive in this cultic system 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:31.440 in a narcissistic relationship. I've had numerous survivors say I 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.880 stopped being me and started doing things that I never 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:36.760 dreamed I would do. I call it sort of the 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.880 slide in morality just to survive in the relationship. And 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.360 then when you talk about the systems of control, well, 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:47.520 all narcissistic relationships are characterized by control, and the systems 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:52.000 of influence really feel like manipulation, behaving in a way 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.280 that induces guilt. Right, So that's every narcissistic relationship. People 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.880 feel like they can't move around in these relationships because 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.920 they feel or that they're violating the relational code or 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.440 that they're going to be abandoned. But then what you said, 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.520 which is shockwaving me right now, is this concept of 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:16.640 indoctrinating the person, attacking the self, tearing down a person 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.200 so you can rebuild them in a way that is 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.680 functional for the cult leader and secondarily the cult system. 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.600 What you describe in a cult almost feels a little 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:32.480 bit more intentional. But that's every narcissistic relationship, whether it's 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:36.400 a parent or a partner, or a boss that they 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:41.200 don't care about your individual self. They're going to break 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:45.839 that down. So what's left is a human being that 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.880 exists in their service. The narcissistic person isn't rubbing their 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:54.120 hands together like an evil genius. It is happening in 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:59.520 this very under the radar slow way where it is 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.640 a brick by brick taking a part of a person, 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.360 or if it's a narcissistic parent, the first time that 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:12.079 child exerts their autonomy game over, the child will immediately 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.600 be shamed. The child will experience a parent's resentment, live 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.560 with the cataclysmic fear of abandonment. That's too traumatizing. So 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.240 the child, in order to survive, has to engage and 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.679 buy in. So we're working in similar spaces, but the 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:31.920 difference is you're talking about a group. I'm talking about 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:36.120 an individual relationship. So how big does an group or 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.720 an organization have to be to be considered a cult. 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:44.360 There are one on one cults, there are family cults, 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.600 as I'm sure you've run into. And what you described 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.640 about the children is interesting because for those children who 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.560 are born in a cult, they experience exactly that they're 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:58.320 not to express any autonomy so they don't go through 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.880 the same developmental stage as we did when we grew up, 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.800 or someone who is not involved in a coercive situation, 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.720 so when they get out, they have all of that 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:13.040 to kind of redo, in a sense, the developmental work. 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:16.600 So yeah, it can be any size. I mean, some 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:19.959 cults are huge, thousands of members. Most of them boast 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.560 about the number of members they actually have, but there. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:23.760 Are groups with thousands. 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.960 And then I've worked with many small family cults and 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.840 also the one on one cults, which are exactly as 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.920 you say, really narcissistic relationships. I think one thing I 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:39.280 do want to mention, because you said narcissists, aren't these 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.960 evil people, you know, planning this all out? I think 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.680 that is one slight difference with cult leaders. I think 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.360 I believe that most I mean I've been doing this 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.480 for thirty five years and I can't tell you the 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.360 stories I have heard, and I believe that most cult 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.840 leaders know what they're doing, and that most of them 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.800 are what we call malignant narcissism, yes, and that they 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.400 have a little bit of psychopathy, and they're very, very 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.719 evil and very harmful. I mean, we can look at 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:11.720 two recent examples of Keith Ranieri and Larry Ray of 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:16.040 the Sarah Lawrence cult. I mean, it's unfathomable, especially Larry Ray, 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.600 what he did to those kids. So cult leaders, I 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:23.360 think tend to be a bit more abusive and harmful. 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.079 Than your run of the mill narcissists, if you will. 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:27.160 I totally agree. 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.280 And it comes down to that intentionality, right, And I 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.160 think that I'm sure you're more than familiar and we've 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.480 talked about it on this podcast before, this idea of 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:41.520 the dark tet trad of narcissism, psychopathy, machiavelianism, and sadism. Yes, 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.600 those qualities are obviously every single cult leader ever. I 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:50.920 like that formatting better because it accounts for the exploitativeness, 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.599 the psychopathic cruelty, which is a lack of remorse, and 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.839 there's an intentionality and that sadistic flair. And I think 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.400 in intimate relationships people struggle with that, like do they 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.360 wanted you this Ranieri and Ray? 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:03.679 They wanted you that? 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:08.280 This was an obsessive, a delusionally obsessive need for power. 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.719 When you talk about first of all, I want to 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:13.760 go back a minute, because I think everyone knows who 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:17.680 Keith Ranieri andexium what that's about. I think fewer people 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.560 know about Larry Ray. Could you just give us a 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.160 brief overview of that. I just want to make sure 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:23.600 that everyone has a context for that. 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.600 Larry Ray was basically a con artist and had been 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.800 in prison for fraud or something. When he got out 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.880 of prison, his daughter, who was a student at Sarah 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:37.079 Lawrence living in a dorm, had some roommates. His daughter said, Oh, 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:38.960 my dad's coming to live with us for a while. 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.000 So he actually moved into the dorm with these young people. 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.280 He essentially indoctrinated these young people into believing that he 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:52.160 was this like superhuman being, and then he convinced them 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.040 that everything they did was wrong and hurting him, and 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:59.000 they were owing him money, and he was very violent 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.880 in the abuse of them. Eventually they moved to an 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.600 apartment in New York and he had one of the 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:10.960 young women become a prostitute. He tortured people, literally tortured people. 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.760 You know, I knew so much about Ranieri and what 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.720 he did. I thought nobody could really beat that. And 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.560 then Larry Ray came along and I thought, Wow, he 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.440 was beyond the pale. So that's who Larry ray Is 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:27.160 and fortunately he got convicted, got a pretty good sentence, 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:32.280 not as good as Ranier he got. And then most recently, Isabella, 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.800 his so called second in command, just got convicted, which 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:41.120 I actually wrote a piece about for MSNBC because she 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.000 was definitely a victim, and not that cult members who 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.840 do horrific things shouldn't be held accountable, but I think 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.920 the courts also need to take into account what happens 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.600 to people under coercion because we have to follow orders, 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.320 and then it depends on what level you're at. But 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:05.760 what happened in cases like Isabella is that through the indoctrination, 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.600 we enter this state of mind that I call bounded choice. 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:15.520 We've been so enclosed in this self sealing system. We 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.760 have no reality checks, no other feedback. We're at the 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:24.920 mercy of the leader. We believe our entire life future 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:30.000 depends on staying with and obeying this leader to the 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.840 point where, yes, we have choices, but our choices are 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:39.320 confined and constrained by this system that we're locked in. 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.440 So sure, if it's something insignificant like oh what am 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.680 I going to have for lunch today or whatever. 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:47.840 Yeah you have a choice about that. 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:53.760 But if it's something significant, like can I leave, can 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.920 I challenge the leader? No, those are thoughts that you 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:02.440 cannot entertain because because you know that if you entertain 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:06.840 those thoughts and God forbid act on them, you will 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:13.320 basically die, either a literal or figurative death. Many cults 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.560 say to you, if you leave, you're going to die, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:17.800 you know of some dread disease. You have to give 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.240 up everything, give up your entire identity at that point, 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.440 and most people, when they're in that state, cannot do that. 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.920 And this is why so many people, especially at a 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.440 higher level in a cult, experience what we call and 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:36.840 I'm sure you're familiar moral injury, which is the effect 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.120 of not just what happened to you, but what you 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.320 did to others or that you saw happen to others, 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.680 and that you couldn't do anything about. So, yes, I 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.120 think someone who's at the level of Isabella Apollock and 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.880 the dastardly thing she did at his command or knowing 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.240 that's what he would want, she needed to be held accountable. 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.800 But I think we are the courts and law enforcement 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.640 also need to understand and have a little bit of 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:09.360 compassion for the person who's caught in that position. 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.160 I found this concept of bounded choice to be one 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.320 of the most fascinating things I'd ever read. I'd never 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.640 that terminology really captured something. Correct me if I'm wrong. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.280 We have a certain spectrum of choice. Okay, what you're 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:24.480 describing as bounded choice is an absolute narrowing of that 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:29.880 spectrum of choice, what you're calling a self sealing system, 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.120 where you don't have any glimpse of a touchstone or 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:39.160 a reality outside of that relationship. So although one looking 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.080 from the outside, I'll say there's a door walk through it, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.440 that is actually that full spectrum a choice no longer exists. 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:50.400 It's like the door doesn't exist or the door is locked. Right, 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.640 Because the reason this is so for me is that 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.680 this is in many ways the paradox of people in 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.760 narcissistic relationships. Again, not nearly at the level of what 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.920 we're talking about in terms of the level of coercion 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.720 and danger and harm of stories we're talking about, but 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:14.199 even in your garden variety narcissistic relationship, that spectrum of 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:19.840 choice narrows to this really bounded realm of if I leave, 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.520 people may think badly of me. I might you know, 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.440 the system is not going to understand who this person's about. 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.240 So the custody of the children will be affected, or 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.520 my culture will cast me out, or I financially may not. 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.439 Be able to make it, or he'll come after me, 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:37.760 or I'll lose the children though correct, or. 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:38.919 The post separation abuse. 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.480 So and I think this is every narcissistic relationship ever, 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.119 and that what happens is even therapists are guilty of this, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.240 which are supposed to be a compassionate system. Forget about 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:53.080 law enforcement on all those other advocacy and justice systems. 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.879 They don't understand bounded choice. Even therapists don't. So we'll 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:00.840 often get into this mindset of like, well is an option, 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.840 and I'm often like squirming in my charm. 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.640 Like I don't know that it is. 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.080 When you gave me this term bounded choice, I just 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.080 want to let you know, doctor Yanya, this terminology has 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.480 greatly helped therapist, So thank you for that. And I've 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.440 sort of been the mouthpiece for that term in clinical realms, 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.199 and because it really gets at what survivors can They're like, 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.240 I don't feel like I can leave this, Like yeah, 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.760 literally I know I can, but I actually don't think 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:27.080 I can. 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.120 I so much appreciate that, And you know, I mean 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.320 that idea of there's the door and you can't go 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.560 through it. I lived that for five years in the 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:35.080 cult that. 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:35.560 I was in. 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.040 I was ready to leave, and I could not figure 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.000 out how to do it. I would get up every morning, 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.119 get in the shower, cry my eyes out because we 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.280 weren't allowed to cry, we have no emotions. And I'd 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.560 get in my car and I would just wish that 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:52.760 I'd be killed in a car accident because it was 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.480 the only way I could see to get out. And 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.440 that is the phenomenon that people who haven't lived through 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.640 this don't have a really difficult time understanding. 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.280 So since you've said that, and I heard you use 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.000 the word we a few times, as though there's a 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.000 sense of belonging for you in cult survivors, this has 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:14.399 been your experience, can we talk about that? Can you 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.840 tell us about the group that you were in and 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:18.040 what that experience was like. 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:23.440 So I was thirty years old, I had already graduated 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:24.760 from college with honors. 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:26.440 I had been a full bright scholar. 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.880 I don't say these things to boast, but to let 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.000 people know that it's not stupid, weird, crazy people who 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:35.199 get into cults, but they look for the best and 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:37.760 the brightest. I met a woman who was a friend 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.159 of a friend, and we would have these great we'd 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.720 go for coffee and have these great political conversations. This 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:45.800 was right at the end of the Vietnam War, so 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.040 people on the left were kind of looking for what 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:48.720 do we do now? 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:49.600 What do we do now? 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.840 So she said at one point she asked to meet 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.480 at my house, and she came over and with another 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.439 person and said, you know, we have this study group. 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.919 It's just for when. It's called women in the State, 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.080 and we're reading about and trying to understand the role 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:07.159 of women in the state, you know, state. 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:07.920 With a capital S. 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.480 And of course that sounded interesting to me. I'd always 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.760 had this intellectual side to me, and I thought, well, 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.680 I'll meet new people. That sounds great. So I joined 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.240 the study group. Little did I know that it was 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.040 a front group for a cult, and little did I 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.720 know that probably half of the people there, five out 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.720 of the ten people there were part of this background 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.120 organization that I didn't know about. So we did these 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.960 readings of like Marx and Lenin and Chairman Mile, things 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.960 like that, and we'd be asked to be the person 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.399 to present the reading at the next meeting, and of 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.600 course when I presented it, they praised me and told 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.199 me how wonderful and brilliant I was, and you know, 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.280 all this what we call love bombing, you know, making 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.080 me feel very special and loved. And then a little 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:57.040 while later she asked to meet with me at my 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.840 house again and said, well, what are you learning in 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.040 the study group And I said, well, I'm learning that 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.040 in order to really make social change, you have to 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:11.800 have a Marxist, a disciplined Marxist Leninist organization. And she said, well, 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.320 what if we told you we have one? And I'm like, 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:18.040 what you know? And she said, yes, we have this 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:22.960 international organization and it's really big, and you know, wouldn't 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:25.560 you like to join? And I was like sure, So 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:27.280 she said, oh, but you know, first you have so 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.159 this is kind of bait and switch that they do, 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.719 So first you have to fill out this questionnaire. So 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.760 I filled out the questionnaire, which basically asked me everything 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:40.000 about my life, my parents, my bank accounts, my passport number, everything, everything, 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.879 and then I was admitted. And at the time, the 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:46.960 group didn't even have a name, and I didn't even 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.600 know it had a leader. But over time I learned that, 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.479 and it was a small group then maybe twenty five 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:59.760 thirty people we grew. We were extremely disciplined, very restricted, 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.640 worked twenty hours days, seven days a week, month after month, 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:06.800 year after year. People had various assignments. We had a 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:10.200 big print shop and a publishing house, and a research 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:11.880 institute and you know. 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:13.200 The staff headquarters. 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.080 All of the newspapers in San Francisco said we were 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:19.800 a cult, and of course we then did damage control, 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:21.960 like no, no, no, they're just read baiting. 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:22.359 Us, you know. 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.199 And most of the time we sat in circles and 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:30.360 criticized each other and tore people down. And the purpose 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.879 of that was following the guidelines of Chairman Mao of 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:38.280 China that no matter what the criticism, you have to 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:41.600 accept the kernel of truth, which basically meant you could 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.520 be criticized for anything. So for example, at one point 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:47.680 I was sent to New York to ask one of 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.159 our supporters for whatever the equivalent of a million dollars 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.560 was back then, which I went and did was embarrassing, 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:57.760 and when I came back, I was put on trial 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.879 and criticized for going to New York and asking this 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:03.680 contact for a million dollars, which is. 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:05.040 Exactly what I was ordered to do. 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:07.560 And while you're sitting there in front of all these 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:09.920 people on trial, you of course can't say, wait a minute, 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:10.840 wait a minute, that's what I. 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:11.480 Was told to do. 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:16.639 So it was very very harsh life. And fortunately and 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:20.120 I was always in leadership and in the inner circle 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:25.480 around the leader, who was a drunken, narcissist, megalomaniac, former 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:27.080 sociology professor. 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:29.520 What was this organization you were in calls because we 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:30.960 know what it is, but we don't even know what 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:31.760 the name of it was. 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:36.399 Well, the final name was the Democratic Workers Party. In 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:40.160 the beginning, we were the Workers Party for Proletarian Socialism, 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:42.119