WEBVTT - Unpacking the Verdict 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.836 Pushkin. 0:00:20.396 --> 0:00:25.236 When Scott told me about this case, I just knew 0:00:25.516 --> 0:00:28.316 that we needed to highlight it, that we needed to 0:00:28.356 --> 0:00:31.396 share it. Because even before I knew all the details, 0:00:31.716 --> 0:00:34.916 even before I went down the rabbit hole, because I'm 0:00:34.956 --> 0:00:37.676 a person always going down the rabbit hole, pulling up 0:00:37.756 --> 0:00:41.196 news articles and videos or whatever I can find about 0:00:41.276 --> 0:00:45.316 FBI cases, even just hearing just a little bit about it, 0:00:45.516 --> 0:00:48.476 I knew that this was a case that needed to 0:00:49.116 --> 0:00:52.676 be told, that people needed to remember. 0:00:53.956 --> 0:00:57.396 That's Jerry Williams. She worked for the FBI for over 0:00:57.436 --> 0:01:01.356 two decades, first as an agent and then as a spokesperson. 0:01:02.316 --> 0:01:06.436 Now she's the host of a podcast called FBI Retired 0:01:06.516 --> 0:01:11.036 Case File Review. Jerry's interviewed hundreds of FBI agents about 0:01:11.076 --> 0:01:14.556 cases they've worked. She's actually the person who first tipped 0:01:14.556 --> 0:01:17.316 me off about this story that we told in season 0:01:17.356 --> 0:01:20.596 four of Deep Cover. When it was done, I called 0:01:20.676 --> 0:01:23.396 Jerry up to discuss this case. I wanted to know 0:01:23.596 --> 0:01:25.636 what drew her to it in the first place, and 0:01:25.716 --> 0:01:28.516 also get her impressions of what we'd put together for 0:01:28.596 --> 0:01:32.276 the Nameless Man. Later in this episode, you'll hear from 0:01:32.316 --> 0:01:36.116 Beth Wilson Devlyn. She's a jury consultant. Her job is 0:01:36.156 --> 0:01:39.916 all about understanding the psychology of jurors, and she had 0:01:39.916 --> 0:01:43.316 some interesting takeaways about the split verdict that the jury 0:01:43.356 --> 0:01:48.436 reached in this case. But first, here's my conversation with Jerry. 0:01:54.876 --> 0:01:57.836 I love telling these stories, and I would love all 0:01:57.876 --> 0:02:02.156 of them to become a podcast series, a documentary, a 0:02:02.276 --> 0:02:03.116 TV show. 0:02:03.356 --> 0:02:05.196 Well, that's one of the things I love about you, Jerry. 0:02:05.436 --> 0:02:08.076 It seems like you really want the agents to get 0:02:08.396 --> 0:02:11.796 the recognition that they deserve for these cases. It seems 0:02:11.796 --> 0:02:13.076 like a driving force with you. 0:02:13.756 --> 0:02:17.516 It absolutely is. I just need to tell the true stories. 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:21.156 Talk to me like, I want to get an understanding 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:26.436 of you're an FBI agent and now you're a podcaster 0:02:26.636 --> 0:02:29.396 who's doing these I almost think of them as like 0:02:29.516 --> 0:02:32.036 oral histories because you're just letting the agents talk like 0:02:32.276 --> 0:02:35.236 how does this happen? How do you go from from 0:02:35.276 --> 0:02:37.676 carrying the badge to you know, carrying the mic. 0:02:38.476 --> 0:02:42.916 Well, it actually started before I retired, because my last 0:02:42.956 --> 0:02:46.196 four or five years in the FBI, I stepped away 0:02:46.196 --> 0:02:53.556 from investigations and became a full time spokesperson. But after 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:59.076 I finished that job, I just wanted to continue telling 0:02:59.116 --> 0:03:01.636 the FBI story. 0:03:00.756 --> 0:03:03.076 You know, you got me from the very beginning. I mean, 0:03:03.116 --> 0:03:05.756 just to give listeners a little bit of a back story. 0:03:05.836 --> 0:03:10.516 I called Jerry, as I've done a few times, and asked, hey, 0:03:11.036 --> 0:03:12.676 do you have any ideas like what should be the 0:03:12.676 --> 0:03:16.436 basis for season four? And you said to me, Hey, 0:03:16.516 --> 0:03:20.196 there's this story involving an agent named Scott Duffy. If 0:03:20.236 --> 0:03:23.716 you could get the players to talk in the story, 0:03:23.756 --> 0:03:30.156 it could be something. And then I immediately went and started. 0:03:30.196 --> 0:03:31.996 I remember where I was. I was actually in New 0:03:32.076 --> 0:03:34.156 York City. I was walking around. It was a spring day, 0:03:34.476 --> 0:03:36.636 and I put my earphones in and I hit play. 0:03:38.876 --> 0:03:39.916 Where do you want to start? 0:03:40.316 --> 0:03:42.956 If I could share, I'd like to start with creating 0:03:42.956 --> 0:03:47.676 a picture for the audience. Imagine yourself as a senior 0:03:48.276 --> 0:03:51.596 at your prompt. Imagine wherever that may be, a hotel 0:03:52.156 --> 0:03:57.236 or some sort of venue, and picture yourself seventeen eighteen 0:03:57.316 --> 0:04:02.596 years old, enjoying the end years of your four years 0:04:02.596 --> 0:04:04.836 of high school. And the reason why I say that 0:04:04.956 --> 0:04:08.236 is because you'll see, as I talk about towards the 0:04:08.356 --> 0:04:12.556 end of this case, this is where a lot of 0:04:12.596 --> 0:04:17.276 our if you want to call it evidence or collaboration, 0:04:18.036 --> 0:04:22.716 bringing together witnesses who had never imagined after sitting at 0:04:22.716 --> 0:04:26.396 a prom table together, which was located at the DuPont Hotel, 0:04:27.396 --> 0:04:32.276 where eighteen years later, they would be confronted by an 0:04:32.276 --> 0:04:38.116 ATF agent and an FBI agent asking them what they 0:04:38.196 --> 0:04:42.156 remember and the conversations they might have had that night, 0:04:42.596 --> 0:04:43.556 the night of the prompt. 0:04:44.436 --> 0:04:49.836 This beginning really grabbed me because there's something about situating 0:04:49.836 --> 0:04:54.876 it in prom night that really helps help me understand 0:04:54.916 --> 0:05:00.916 just how young the alleged perpetrators of this crime were. 0:05:01.316 --> 0:05:09.076 Absolutely, I just couldn't wrap my mind around high schools 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:16.276 students being so bold as to brag about killing somebody 0:05:17.556 --> 0:05:21.596 only based on the color of its skin. It was frightening. 0:05:21.836 --> 0:05:26.356 It made me angry, It made me sad. This case 0:05:26.756 --> 0:05:31.596 just grabbed me from the very beginning. Definitely, in Scott 0:05:31.716 --> 0:05:36.916 telling this story, he just drew me in. And this 0:05:37.036 --> 0:05:39.636 is kind of corny to say, but I felt his heart. 0:05:39.796 --> 0:05:45.236 I felt his heart and how much he cared about 0:05:45.716 --> 0:05:50.676 this unknown black man that was shot in the streets 0:05:50.676 --> 0:05:55.396 of Philadelphia, and he drew me in. So it was 0:05:55.516 --> 0:05:59.156 not difficult at all. When you asked me, do I 0:05:59.276 --> 0:06:03.796 have a story that you might want to expand into 0:06:03.876 --> 0:06:06.916 a series? I knew exactly what I was going to 0:06:06.996 --> 0:06:10.516 ask you about. I needed to hear the whole story. 0:06:10.996 --> 0:06:14.516 When you originally get this interview with Scott and you 0:06:14.596 --> 0:06:17.676 think to yourself, Wow, I'd like to hear kind of 0:06:18.316 --> 0:06:21.276 I guess, more perspectives on this story, kind of different 0:06:21.276 --> 0:06:25.196 players involved. Who are the other people that you're thinking, Yeah, 0:06:25.196 --> 0:06:26.436 I'd like to know what their deal is. 0:06:27.076 --> 0:06:32.796 Definitely the family when I'm talking to Scott, always, always 0:06:33.516 --> 0:06:38.516 right in the back of my mind is this nameless 0:06:38.556 --> 0:06:43.156 man and who he is and his family and what 0:06:43.396 --> 0:06:49.516 they're wondering and feeling. That was always present because you know, 0:06:49.636 --> 0:06:53.756 I'm thinking if that was my son or my brother 0:06:54.236 --> 0:06:58.476 or uncle, I would have always wanted to know what happened. 0:06:59.116 --> 0:07:01.476 The thing that really got to me, And of course 0:07:02.716 --> 0:07:06.116 Aaron Wood's mother had passed away before you did this, 0:07:06.636 --> 0:07:12.236 but I really, you know, it really got to me 0:07:12.396 --> 0:07:16.796 that she did have the opportunity to learn about what 0:07:17.036 --> 0:07:21.196 happened to her son, and that had to be something 0:07:21.996 --> 0:07:27.316 that helped her to know the truth behind that, because 0:07:27.756 --> 0:07:30.396 not knowing what happened to him, why he died, how 0:07:30.436 --> 0:07:34.516 he died what obviously was a hole in her life 0:07:34.596 --> 0:07:37.796 because it was so painful, she didn't want to speak 0:07:37.836 --> 0:07:42.396 about it, but she was able to find those answers 0:07:42.916 --> 0:07:47.596 through the trial. And that makes me feel good that, 0:07:48.076 --> 0:07:52.436 you know, an FBI agent, you know, and an ATF 0:07:52.516 --> 0:07:55.796 agent was able to do that for this woman that 0:07:55.956 --> 0:07:58.236 you know, they'd never met. That that really meant a 0:07:58.236 --> 0:07:58.836 lot to me too. 0:07:59.596 --> 0:08:02.236 Yeah, And it's interesting when I went down and interviewed 0:08:02.236 --> 0:08:08.956 them and realized that that they were in this question 0:08:08.956 --> 0:08:12.236 of their own to find the perpetrator who they didn't know. 0:08:13.276 --> 0:08:16.756 That's when I had this aha moment to call this 0:08:16.876 --> 0:08:21.276 series the Nameless Man, because I had talked to Scott 0:08:21.276 --> 0:08:23.916 and Terry and they were searching for this nameless man 0:08:24.156 --> 0:08:25.956 who is the victim, and they need the victim to 0:08:25.996 --> 0:08:29.436 make the case. And then there's this parallel story where 0:08:29.476 --> 0:08:31.996 the family had a nameless man of their own they 0:08:31.996 --> 0:08:34.756 were searching for, which is who killed their brother and 0:08:34.756 --> 0:08:35.196 their son. 0:08:35.676 --> 0:08:39.436 Wow. I never thought of that. Yeah, that is pretty cool. 0:08:39.636 --> 0:08:43.076 Yeah, yeah, and it it felt like it took a 0:08:43.076 --> 0:08:44.716 little bit of the pressure off Scott and Terry. This 0:08:45.636 --> 0:08:48.476 wasn't just their story, it was also the story of 0:08:48.516 --> 0:08:50.436 the Wood family and their quest. 0:08:51.036 --> 0:08:58.516 The whole case just gives us hope, And I say, 0:08:58.556 --> 0:09:05.516 that when we talk about Craig Peterson, because his story 0:09:05.596 --> 0:09:09.836 about his background is also a kind of a story 0:09:09.876 --> 0:09:11.316 of self hate. 0:09:11.556 --> 0:09:14.196 Wouldn't you say, yeah, so let's talk about Craig because 0:09:14.196 --> 0:09:18.436 this was this was a shock to me. In fact, 0:09:18.476 --> 0:09:21.196 I'll just there's a bit of tabe you want to 0:09:21.196 --> 0:09:24.676 play here from Carmen Weinberger, who was thesis and Da 0:09:24.876 --> 0:09:29.356 and she when they're putting the case together, is meeting 0:09:29.476 --> 0:09:30.596 Craig for the first time. 0:09:32.276 --> 0:09:37.076 I looked at him and felt Peterson's a skinhead. He 0:09:37.116 --> 0:09:41.796 looks like he's mixed with black. I remember that he 0:09:42.556 --> 0:09:49.956 has an olive complexion that causes me to believe I'm biracial, 0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:56.716 So I pay attention to those things. I always thought 0:09:56.716 --> 0:10:00.076 he was mixed somewhere in there. I don't know if 0:10:00.076 --> 0:10:03.716 he was adopted. Maybe he didn't realize it, maybe he did, 0:10:04.756 --> 0:10:08.196 but I always thought, and to this day I can 0:10:08.436 --> 0:10:12.356 remember and see his faith. He looked like he could 0:10:12.356 --> 0:10:13.036 have been relative. 0:10:14.956 --> 0:10:16.596 What was your reaction when you heard that. 0:10:16.596 --> 0:10:22.876 Jerry Mine blowing. It's so sad to think that someone 0:10:22.916 --> 0:10:27.716 could be so confused about who they are and where 0:10:27.716 --> 0:10:32.316 they fit that they would choose to take a side 0:10:33.036 --> 0:10:38.716 where there is genuine hate and hostility to the other 0:10:38.876 --> 0:10:43.396 half of who they are. It's I did not know 0:10:43.516 --> 0:10:46.956 this when I interviewed Scott. That just never came up. 0:10:47.396 --> 0:10:49.956 Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes you know how this goes, 0:10:51.796 --> 0:10:54.836 there's there's a kind of burning question that you feel 0:10:55.476 --> 0:10:58.156 that you didn't get to the bottom of. That's my 0:10:58.356 --> 0:11:01.596 that's my burning question with this series about this because 0:11:02.076 --> 0:11:05.356 if that is in fact true, if Craig is biracial, 0:11:05.396 --> 0:11:10.676 then the question of how he got involve this white 0:11:10.716 --> 0:11:12.956 supremacist group and then in fact went on to commit 0:11:13.116 --> 0:11:17.396 murder based on its ideology, it raises a million questions. 0:11:17.596 --> 0:11:21.116 So I'm hopeful that maybe Craig will somehow decide that 0:11:21.156 --> 0:11:24.156 he wants to talk. Just to be clear here, I 0:11:24.276 --> 0:11:27.276 never got Craig to go on the record and confirm 0:11:27.316 --> 0:11:29.876 for me whether or not he was biracial. 0:11:30.516 --> 0:11:32.956 Well, all I have to say is that when I 0:11:33.316 --> 0:11:40.436 suggested that you look into this case, I needed the 0:11:40.516 --> 0:11:43.916 answers that I wasn't able to get from just interviewing Scott, 0:11:44.436 --> 0:11:50.356 and you delivered. I mean you delivered. And if you 0:11:50.396 --> 0:11:53.716 could just now get that interview with Craig so we 0:11:53.796 --> 0:11:58.756 can find out more about him, then you would have 0:11:58.796 --> 0:12:01.796 hit it out of the park. So that's your challenge. 0:12:01.836 --> 0:12:04.316 I'm still hoping that Craig is going to have an 0:12:04.356 --> 0:12:08.596 opportunity to listen to this and to understand that we 0:12:08.756 --> 0:12:13.476 really do want to hear from him, not in a 0:12:13.676 --> 0:12:18.036 judgmental way, but in a way that again allows us 0:12:18.076 --> 0:12:22.956 to come full circle and to get understanding and hope 0:12:23.596 --> 0:12:30.716 that people who hate are able to recognize and resolve 0:12:30.956 --> 0:12:36.476 those feelings and move on to a better place. So 0:12:37.156 --> 0:12:39.996 Craig talk to Jake. 0:12:42.556 --> 0:12:45.636 After the break, I discussed the jury and their verdict 0:12:45.996 --> 0:12:47.356 with Beth Wilson Devlin. 0:12:56.756 --> 0:12:58.436 I listened to the whole thing. Actually, I thought it 0:12:58.476 --> 0:12:59.196 was very interesting. 0:12:59.276 --> 0:13:01.556 Wow, that's great. Yeah. 0:13:02.316 --> 0:13:02.796 I'm not a. 0:13:02.756 --> 0:13:05.236 Podcast person either, so I thought it was very good. 0:13:06.556 --> 0:13:10.756 Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. You you now 0:13:10.836 --> 0:13:13.836 fall into the same class as my family members who 0:13:13.876 --> 0:13:18.356 I guilt into listening to my work. That's Beth Wilson Devlin. 0:13:18.676 --> 0:13:22.276 She's a partner at Edge Litigation Consulting. She's a jury 0:13:22.276 --> 0:13:27.196 consultant and admittedly not a podcast listener. But I reached 0:13:27.236 --> 0:13:30.076 out to Beth to discuss the verdict in this case. 0:13:30.676 --> 0:13:33.316 And if you recall back in two thousand and eight, 0:13:33.756 --> 0:13:37.916 Thomas Guybison was found guilty on two counts conspiracy to 0:13:37.956 --> 0:13:41.476 commit murder and a weapon charge. He was acquitted on 0:13:41.516 --> 0:13:45.596 the murder and ethnic intimidation charges. The press at the 0:13:45.636 --> 0:13:50.756 time called this verdict quote bizarre. But I wanted Beth's 0:13:50.756 --> 0:13:53.636 take on all of this, and we started off talking 0:13:53.796 --> 0:13:56.716 about the process of how a jury is even chosen. 0:13:56.876 --> 0:14:01.476 In the first place. There's a jury selection process in 0:14:01.516 --> 0:14:06.116 which you're going through potential jurors and weeding some ow 0:14:06.276 --> 0:14:08.716 can you can you just talk us through that a 0:14:08.756 --> 0:14:10.436 little bit about how that works. 0:14:11.276 --> 0:14:15.156 That varies dramatically from venue to venue. Sometimes it's just 0:14:15.236 --> 0:14:19.276 the judge asking questions of the jurors. Sometimes you get 0:14:19.316 --> 0:14:21.716 an opportunity as a lawyer to be able to ask 0:14:21.836 --> 0:14:25.396 questions of the jurors. Sometimes you have information in the 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:28.076 form of a questionnaire that jurors have that they either 0:14:28.116 --> 0:14:30.276 fill out at the time or they fill out in 0:14:30.316 --> 0:14:32.916 advance of the jury selection process. So there's lots of 0:14:32.916 --> 0:14:35.156 different ways that you can get information. But what that 0:14:35.236 --> 0:14:38.236 information is and how much you have is really depend 0:14:38.476 --> 0:14:41.476 dependent upon the venue. So one thing I will just say, 0:14:42.156 --> 0:14:45.836 because I did I listened to the podcasts and uh, 0:14:45.956 --> 0:14:47.676 you know, you talk about it as being a jury 0:14:47.676 --> 0:14:49.636 selection process, which is what a lot of people think 0:14:49.676 --> 0:14:51.956 it is because that's what it's called jury selection. But 0:14:51.996 --> 0:14:55.636 it's actually a de selection process. So you're not actually 0:14:55.996 --> 0:14:58.116 picking the jurors that are going to be on the 0:14:58.156 --> 0:15:00.196 panel that are going to decide the case. What you 0:15:00.236 --> 0:15:02.756 are doing is you are of a group of people. 0:15:02.956 --> 0:15:05.676 You have to decide who do I not want on 0:15:05.756 --> 0:15:08.716 this panel for one reason or another. You know, usually 0:15:08.796 --> 0:15:11.996 it's because you have a belief that this particular juror 0:15:11.996 --> 0:15:14.116 that you're going to strike off the panel is somebody 0:15:14.156 --> 0:15:16.436 who you know is not going to be open minded 0:15:16.436 --> 0:15:17.036 to your case. 0:15:18.276 --> 0:15:21.236 So if you're Roger King, the prosecutor in this case, 0:15:21.756 --> 0:15:24.116 who what are the types of jurors that you're looking 0:15:24.156 --> 0:15:26.796 to kind of weed out to maximize your chances of winning? 0:15:27.076 --> 0:15:30.836 Right? So I think about it like, okay, So for example, 0:15:31.756 --> 0:15:33.316 when I talk to my clients, I talk to that 0:15:33.556 --> 0:15:36.276 as basically you're looking at vampires. Right. So it's like 0:15:36.596 --> 0:15:40.836 you have a group of individuals and you have so 0:15:40.916 --> 0:15:42.516 many people that are going to be the ones that 0:15:42.556 --> 0:15:45.276 are just you know, your worst case scenario, and you 0:15:45.316 --> 0:15:47.356 want to try to identify who those individuals are, and 0:15:47.396 --> 0:15:50.116 you have so many wooden stakes that you can use, right, 0:15:50.756 --> 0:15:53.076 so what you want to be looking for in the 0:15:53.076 --> 0:15:57.676 case of the prosecution. I think they actually have the 0:15:57.716 --> 0:16:01.196 advantage in this case because most of the jurors in 0:16:01.276 --> 0:16:04.636 the pool are likely going to be in favor of 0:16:04.716 --> 0:16:08.436 the prosecution based on the information in the case. So 0:16:08.636 --> 0:16:10.876 if it were and I were advising the prosecution, I'd 0:16:10.916 --> 0:16:15.316 be looking for individuals who, for example, are what I 0:16:15.316 --> 0:16:19.356 would call critical thinkers. They're people who are, for example, 0:16:19.356 --> 0:16:22.396 they might be in professions where they're very very detail oriented, 0:16:22.956 --> 0:16:28.116 very evidence based, people like accountants, people like engineers, people 0:16:28.276 --> 0:16:32.156 like people who have science backgrounds, like, for example, the 0:16:32.236 --> 0:16:35.036 juror Bob, he was one. He's a perfect example of thing. 0:16:36.396 --> 0:16:39.276 You're saying this, and I'm like, you're describing Bob, who 0:16:39.356 --> 0:16:42.116 is who is not entirely convinced by the prosecution. 0:16:42.356 --> 0:16:44.476 Yeah, that's exactly the kind of situation. And I think 0:16:44.516 --> 0:16:47.436 he was absolutely well intentioned and taking his job very 0:16:47.556 --> 0:16:50.396 very seriously. But that's an example of someone who is 0:16:50.476 --> 0:16:53.316 going to look he's not going to be satisfied by 0:16:53.436 --> 0:16:57.996 eyewitness testimony, by circumstantial evidence, like most jurors actually are 0:16:58.036 --> 0:17:01.316 in these sorts of situations. In these cases, most people 0:17:01.356 --> 0:17:03.116 are going to be satisfied by that, but someone like 0:17:03.116 --> 0:17:05.556 a Bob is going to be more interested in saying, 0:17:05.676 --> 0:17:09.516 I need to see the actual evidence in this case. 0:17:09.516 --> 0:17:11.756 I need to see the connection, the link between this 0:17:11.796 --> 0:17:13.556 piece of evidence and that piece of evidence. 0:17:14.436 --> 0:17:17.236 By that same logic, is the prosecution in this case 0:17:17.956 --> 0:17:20.396 I do looking for someone who's going to be motivated 0:17:20.836 --> 0:17:22.756 by the kind of emotionality of the case. 0:17:22.996 --> 0:17:25.396 Yeah, I mean I think so. Somebody like if the 0:17:25.436 --> 0:17:28.116 prosecution had the opportunity to say, who do I want 0:17:28.396 --> 0:17:30.596 on my jury, They're going to be looking for someone 0:17:30.636 --> 0:17:33.836 who is more emotionally, more sort of gut level. I 0:17:33.916 --> 0:17:35.756 have a gut reaction to the case, and I'm more 0:17:35.836 --> 0:17:38.756 likely to say I don't need you know, beyond a 0:17:38.756 --> 0:17:41.596 reasonable doubt, I have enough here to say if it 0:17:41.636 --> 0:17:43.356 looks like a duck and it walks like a duck, 0:17:43.396 --> 0:17:44.196 it must be a duck. 0:17:44.356 --> 0:17:46.316 Okay. I want to ask you about something else, which 0:17:46.316 --> 0:17:49.236 is kind of a sensitive question, but one that feels 0:17:49.276 --> 0:17:53.476 relevant and important, which is race. If you're coming into 0:17:53.516 --> 0:17:58.236 this this situation as Roger King, and if I'm the prosecution, 0:17:58.436 --> 0:18:01.956 and I ask you, and I'm saying, Beth, can I 0:18:02.036 --> 0:18:05.676 assume can I make assumptions based on race? 0:18:06.396 --> 0:18:09.876 Well, so a couple things. You can't strike based just 0:18:10.076 --> 0:18:13.596 on race. So there's something called a bats In challenge 0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:16.516 that if there is a pattern of one side or 0:18:16.556 --> 0:18:19.356 another doing something like that, then they can raise the 0:18:19.396 --> 0:18:21.876 bats In challenge because you can't strike just based on 0:18:21.916 --> 0:18:26.076 something like race. Gender is another example for bats In challenge. 0:18:26.796 --> 0:18:29.476 So you can't do that, but you can strike somebody 0:18:29.516 --> 0:18:33.436 who is of, you know, a particular race or ethnicity 0:18:33.796 --> 0:18:37.036 if you have other reasons for doing that. The way 0:18:37.076 --> 0:18:39.116 I think about it in this case is, you know, yes, 0:18:39.196 --> 0:18:42.556 there's certainly a racially motivated component to it, So to 0:18:42.596 --> 0:18:47.156 say that that isn't relevant would be ridiculous really, But 0:18:47.236 --> 0:18:49.676 I think what we're talking about is a situation where 0:18:50.116 --> 0:18:53.156 you're looking for people who, Okay, is this somebody who 0:18:53.636 --> 0:18:57.476 has experienced racial discrimination? Is this somebody who's experience being 0:18:57.516 --> 0:19:00.436 targeted because of the color of their skin, And so 0:19:00.636 --> 0:19:02.476 that's the sort of thing that you're looking for. So 0:19:02.556 --> 0:19:06.796 if I'm, for example, you know, advising for the defendant, 0:19:07.676 --> 0:19:10.556 I'd be concerned about people who have had experiences like that, 0:19:10.596 --> 0:19:13.876 who have had experiences where they've been targeted because of 0:19:13.996 --> 0:19:16.716 the color of their skin, because of their ethnicity, or 0:19:16.836 --> 0:19:19.876 racially targeted in some way. I'd be concerned about someone 0:19:19.916 --> 0:19:20.196 like that. 0:19:20.676 --> 0:19:23.196 Yeah, you use the vampire analogy, which made me think, 0:19:23.236 --> 0:19:24.956 you know, what is it the vampire? You break out 0:19:24.956 --> 0:19:26.916 the garlick or the crucifix, and you know you've got 0:19:26.956 --> 0:19:30.476 a vampire. But some people may just wear their biases 0:19:30.516 --> 0:19:34.036 on their sleeve, but most of us are fairly adept 0:19:33.556 --> 0:19:39.236 at hiding, particularly viewpoints that we may rightly sense are 0:19:39.276 --> 0:19:41.316 going to be a liability. You're going to turn people off. 0:19:41.356 --> 0:19:42.596 So how do you ferret that out? 0:19:42.796 --> 0:19:45.276 Yeah, I mean that's a situation where the questionnaire is 0:19:45.316 --> 0:19:47.156 really the better way to go, because that's a situation 0:19:47.196 --> 0:19:49.356 where people are going to be much more candid if 0:19:49.356 --> 0:19:51.756 they don't have to look someone else in the eye, 0:19:52.196 --> 0:19:54.436 where there's a much more of a sense of being 0:19:54.556 --> 0:19:55.636 judged in that room. 0:19:56.076 --> 0:19:58.676 Okay, So we talked a little bit through Roger King 0:19:58.676 --> 0:20:00.436 and what he would want, and you kind of address this. 0:20:00.516 --> 0:20:02.836 But I want to ask you, if you're Mike Ferrell, 0:20:02.916 --> 0:20:05.556 the defense attorney, and you've got this client here, who 0:20:05.636 --> 0:20:08.196 is being accused of murder who at one point in 0:20:08.236 --> 0:20:11.996 his life was is a skinhead, and all the kind 0:20:12.036 --> 0:20:16.476 of baggage that brings with it. Who are the people 0:20:16.556 --> 0:20:20.476 that you want and don't want on the jury From 0:20:20.476 --> 0:20:21.676 the defense perspective. 0:20:23.076 --> 0:20:27.796 If I'm the defense in this case, I have a 0:20:27.836 --> 0:20:30.116 hard job because, as I said before, I think that 0:20:30.156 --> 0:20:32.036 if you look at the grand scheme of how many 0:20:32.076 --> 0:20:34.996 people like all the perspective jurors, most of them are 0:20:35.036 --> 0:20:37.196 likely going to be prosecution oriented in this sort of 0:20:37.196 --> 0:20:41.716 a case. So I'm going to be concerned about somebody 0:20:41.756 --> 0:20:45.436 who is, you know, very much pro law and order type. 0:20:45.476 --> 0:20:49.116 Somebody who you know is interested in, you know what 0:20:49.156 --> 0:20:51.916 the police say. They have very favorable viewpoints of the police. 0:20:52.676 --> 0:20:56.516 They trust the police, they trust you know, prosecutors, they 0:20:56.556 --> 0:20:58.876 think that they do a good job. That's the sort 0:20:58.916 --> 0:21:00.676 of thing where I'd be concerned about someone like that, 0:21:01.116 --> 0:21:04.076 somebody that I would like if I'm the defendant, I'd 0:21:04.116 --> 0:21:07.916 be interested in again the sort of the bobs, right, 0:21:07.956 --> 0:21:10.956 the people that are going to really hold the prosecution 0:21:11.196 --> 0:21:14.076 to a standard, to that beyond a reasonable doubt standard, 0:21:14.516 --> 0:21:18.196 who probably are going to be concerned with the idea 0:21:18.276 --> 0:21:22.036 of circumstantial evidence or eyewitness testimony, particularly when you're talking 0:21:22.076 --> 0:21:25.876 about eyewitness testimony that occurred you know, you know, years 0:21:25.876 --> 0:21:29.116 and years ago where memories fade as as you talked 0:21:29.116 --> 0:21:31.076 about in the podcast, that's exactly the kind of thing 0:21:31.356 --> 0:21:33.316 where some jurors are going to be really concerned about 0:21:33.716 --> 0:21:36.556 putting someone in prison for the rest of their life 0:21:37.396 --> 0:21:42.196 on that sort of evidence. I probably would also be 0:21:42.356 --> 0:21:46.236 interested in, you know, men who maybe don't hold super 0:21:46.276 --> 0:21:49.676 favorable views of women, who you know, have been scorned 0:21:49.716 --> 0:21:52.436 by women in the past, who have been you know, 0:21:53.436 --> 0:21:58.196 who have been betrayed, you know, by someone close to them, 0:21:58.236 --> 0:22:00.036 someone like that, who's going to somehow be able to 0:22:00.076 --> 0:22:04.676 make a personal connection to the defendant, skinhead or not skinhead. 0:22:04.676 --> 0:22:06.956 There could be lots of ways that someone can personally 0:22:07.036 --> 0:22:10.156 identify with a defendant who would be willing to fight 0:22:10.236 --> 0:22:11.596 for that defendant. 0:22:12.676 --> 0:22:14.756 That's interesting. But how do you that's like a very 0:22:14.796 --> 0:22:17.836 personal thing. How do you how would you suss that out? 0:22:18.036 --> 0:22:20.196 Yeah, so, I mean it kind of depends on the 0:22:20.236 --> 0:22:22.876 process again, right, So we go back to what kind 0:22:22.916 --> 0:22:25.316 of information are you likely to get. If you're not 0:22:25.356 --> 0:22:27.036 going to be able to ask the questions, then it 0:22:27.076 --> 0:22:28.756 doesn't really matter. You're not gonna be able to ssess 0:22:28.756 --> 0:22:30.676 that out. But if you have a situation where you 0:22:30.716 --> 0:22:32.956 could ask, you know, very point blank, if they've ever 0:22:32.996 --> 0:22:35.676 been betrayed by a close friend, or you know, a 0:22:35.756 --> 0:22:38.396 situation where you know they've ever been wrongly accused. Those 0:22:38.436 --> 0:22:40.836 are questions that you might be able to ask in 0:22:40.916 --> 0:22:44.316 the Vais deir process, and that juror, you know, will 0:22:44.436 --> 0:22:47.076 you know, they have to respond truthfully. That doesn't mean 0:22:47.076 --> 0:22:50.036 that they will, but just sometimes even their hesitations or 0:22:50.076 --> 0:22:52.716 the way they say things can help you understand how 0:22:52.756 --> 0:22:55.076 they're reacting and what they're likely to be thinking. 0:22:56.236 --> 0:22:58.996 These lawyers did have a chance to ask the jurors questions. 0:22:59.156 --> 0:23:01.156 I know that the defense lawyer asked, would you be 0:23:01.156 --> 0:23:03.236 able to suspend judgments about someone who said they were 0:23:03.276 --> 0:23:06.076 a skinhead? Is anyone policing those questions? 0:23:06.276 --> 0:23:07.916 So if the judge is there, then they're going to 0:23:07.916 --> 0:23:09.876 be the ones policing that. There could also be a 0:23:09.916 --> 0:23:12.116 magistrate there, so it's not the judge, but it's a 0:23:12.156 --> 0:23:15.756 magistrate that's doing that, somebody who's basically, you know, the 0:23:15.876 --> 0:23:17.636 umpire of those sorts of questions. 0:23:17.996 --> 0:23:20.796 Yeah, because I'm thinking like you would you ask a juror, sir, 0:23:20.876 --> 0:23:21.916 have you been divorced? 0:23:22.076 --> 0:23:22.276 Sir? 0:23:22.436 --> 0:23:25.516 Has was it an acrimonious divorce where you had to 0:23:25.516 --> 0:23:29.436 fight over custody? And trying to get at that issue 0:23:29.476 --> 0:23:31.836 is is this someone who's going to kind of be 0:23:32.356 --> 0:23:33.636 you know, angry at women. 0:23:34.276 --> 0:23:37.276 Those are questions that could get at that, right you 0:23:37.596 --> 0:23:40.516 can start to make inferences from that, but that's farther 0:23:40.636 --> 0:23:43.996 removed from the actual question. So I might you know, 0:23:43.996 --> 0:23:47.476