1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,396 --> 00:00:25,236 Speaker 2: When Scott told me about this case, I just knew 3 00:00:25,516 --> 00:00:28,316 Speaker 2: that we needed to highlight it, that we needed to 4 00:00:28,356 --> 00:00:31,396 Speaker 2: share it. Because even before I knew all the details, 5 00:00:31,716 --> 00:00:34,916 Speaker 2: even before I went down the rabbit hole, because I'm 6 00:00:34,956 --> 00:00:37,676 Speaker 2: a person always going down the rabbit hole, pulling up 7 00:00:37,756 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 2: news articles and videos or whatever I can find about 8 00:00:41,276 --> 00:00:45,316 Speaker 2: FBI cases, even just hearing just a little bit about it, 9 00:00:45,516 --> 00:00:48,476 Speaker 2: I knew that this was a case that needed to 10 00:00:49,116 --> 00:00:52,676 Speaker 2: be told, that people needed to remember. 11 00:00:53,956 --> 00:00:57,396 Speaker 1: That's Jerry Williams. She worked for the FBI for over 12 00:00:57,436 --> 00:01:01,356 Speaker 1: two decades, first as an agent and then as a spokesperson. 13 00:01:02,316 --> 00:01:06,436 Speaker 1: Now she's the host of a podcast called FBI Retired 14 00:01:06,516 --> 00:01:11,036 Speaker 1: Case File Review. Jerry's interviewed hundreds of FBI agents about 15 00:01:11,076 --> 00:01:14,556 Speaker 1: cases they've worked. She's actually the person who first tipped 16 00:01:14,556 --> 00:01:17,316 Speaker 1: me off about this story that we told in season 17 00:01:17,356 --> 00:01:20,596 Speaker 1: four of Deep Cover. When it was done, I called 18 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:23,396 Speaker 1: Jerry up to discuss this case. I wanted to know 19 00:01:23,596 --> 00:01:25,636 Speaker 1: what drew her to it in the first place, and 20 00:01:25,716 --> 00:01:28,516 Speaker 1: also get her impressions of what we'd put together for 21 00:01:28,596 --> 00:01:32,276 Speaker 1: the Nameless Man. Later in this episode, you'll hear from 22 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:36,116 Speaker 1: Beth Wilson Devlyn. She's a jury consultant. Her job is 23 00:01:36,156 --> 00:01:39,916 Speaker 1: all about understanding the psychology of jurors, and she had 24 00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:43,316 Speaker 1: some interesting takeaways about the split verdict that the jury 25 00:01:43,356 --> 00:01:48,436 Speaker 1: reached in this case. But first, here's my conversation with Jerry. 26 00:01:54,876 --> 00:01:57,836 Speaker 2: I love telling these stories, and I would love all 27 00:01:57,876 --> 00:02:02,156 Speaker 2: of them to become a podcast series, a documentary, a 28 00:02:02,276 --> 00:02:03,116 Speaker 2: TV show. 29 00:02:03,356 --> 00:02:05,196 Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the things I love about you, Jerry. 30 00:02:05,436 --> 00:02:08,076 Speaker 1: It seems like you really want the agents to get 31 00:02:08,396 --> 00:02:11,796 Speaker 1: the recognition that they deserve for these cases. It seems 32 00:02:11,796 --> 00:02:13,076 Speaker 1: like a driving force with you. 33 00:02:13,756 --> 00:02:17,516 Speaker 2: It absolutely is. I just need to tell the true stories. 34 00:02:18,836 --> 00:02:21,156 Speaker 1: Talk to me like, I want to get an understanding 35 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:26,436 Speaker 1: of you're an FBI agent and now you're a podcaster 36 00:02:26,636 --> 00:02:29,396 Speaker 1: who's doing these I almost think of them as like 37 00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:32,036 Speaker 1: oral histories because you're just letting the agents talk like 38 00:02:32,276 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 1: how does this happen? How do you go from from 39 00:02:35,276 --> 00:02:37,676 Speaker 1: carrying the badge to you know, carrying the mic. 40 00:02:38,476 --> 00:02:42,916 Speaker 2: Well, it actually started before I retired, because my last 41 00:02:42,956 --> 00:02:46,196 Speaker 2: four or five years in the FBI, I stepped away 42 00:02:46,196 --> 00:02:53,556 Speaker 2: from investigations and became a full time spokesperson. But after 43 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:59,076 Speaker 2: I finished that job, I just wanted to continue telling 44 00:02:59,116 --> 00:03:01,636 Speaker 2: the FBI story. 45 00:03:00,756 --> 00:03:03,076 Speaker 1: You know, you got me from the very beginning. I mean, 46 00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:05,756 Speaker 1: just to give listeners a little bit of a back story. 47 00:03:05,836 --> 00:03:10,516 Speaker 1: I called Jerry, as I've done a few times, and asked, hey, 48 00:03:11,036 --> 00:03:12,676 Speaker 1: do you have any ideas like what should be the 49 00:03:12,676 --> 00:03:16,436 Speaker 1: basis for season four? And you said to me, Hey, 50 00:03:16,516 --> 00:03:20,196 Speaker 1: there's this story involving an agent named Scott Duffy. If 51 00:03:20,236 --> 00:03:23,716 Speaker 1: you could get the players to talk in the story, 52 00:03:23,756 --> 00:03:30,156 Speaker 1: it could be something. And then I immediately went and started. 53 00:03:30,196 --> 00:03:31,996 Speaker 1: I remember where I was. I was actually in New 54 00:03:32,076 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: York City. I was walking around. It was a spring day, 55 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:36,636 Speaker 1: and I put my earphones in and I hit play. 56 00:03:38,876 --> 00:03:39,916 Speaker 2: Where do you want to start? 57 00:03:40,316 --> 00:03:42,956 Speaker 3: If I could share, I'd like to start with creating 58 00:03:42,956 --> 00:03:47,676 Speaker 3: a picture for the audience. Imagine yourself as a senior 59 00:03:48,276 --> 00:03:51,596 Speaker 3: at your prompt. Imagine wherever that may be, a hotel 60 00:03:52,156 --> 00:03:57,236 Speaker 3: or some sort of venue, and picture yourself seventeen eighteen 61 00:03:57,316 --> 00:04:02,596 Speaker 3: years old, enjoying the end years of your four years 62 00:04:02,596 --> 00:04:04,836 Speaker 3: of high school. And the reason why I say that 63 00:04:04,956 --> 00:04:08,236 Speaker 3: is because you'll see, as I talk about towards the 64 00:04:08,356 --> 00:04:12,556 Speaker 3: end of this case, this is where a lot of 65 00:04:12,596 --> 00:04:17,276 Speaker 3: our if you want to call it evidence or collaboration, 66 00:04:18,036 --> 00:04:22,716 Speaker 3: bringing together witnesses who had never imagined after sitting at 67 00:04:22,716 --> 00:04:26,396 Speaker 3: a prom table together, which was located at the DuPont Hotel, 68 00:04:27,396 --> 00:04:32,276 Speaker 3: where eighteen years later, they would be confronted by an 69 00:04:32,276 --> 00:04:38,116 Speaker 3: ATF agent and an FBI agent asking them what they 70 00:04:38,196 --> 00:04:42,156 Speaker 3: remember and the conversations they might have had that night, 71 00:04:42,596 --> 00:04:43,556 Speaker 3: the night of the prompt. 72 00:04:44,436 --> 00:04:49,836 Speaker 1: This beginning really grabbed me because there's something about situating 73 00:04:49,836 --> 00:04:54,876 Speaker 1: it in prom night that really helps help me understand 74 00:04:54,916 --> 00:05:00,916 Speaker 1: just how young the alleged perpetrators of this crime were. 75 00:05:01,316 --> 00:05:09,076 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I just couldn't wrap my mind around high schools 76 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:16,276 Speaker 2: students being so bold as to brag about killing somebody 77 00:05:17,556 --> 00:05:21,596 Speaker 2: only based on the color of its skin. It was frightening. 78 00:05:21,836 --> 00:05:26,356 Speaker 2: It made me angry, It made me sad. This case 79 00:05:26,756 --> 00:05:31,596 Speaker 2: just grabbed me from the very beginning. Definitely, in Scott 80 00:05:31,716 --> 00:05:36,916 Speaker 2: telling this story, he just drew me in. And this 81 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:39,636 Speaker 2: is kind of corny to say, but I felt his heart. 82 00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:45,236 Speaker 2: I felt his heart and how much he cared about 83 00:05:45,716 --> 00:05:50,676 Speaker 2: this unknown black man that was shot in the streets 84 00:05:50,676 --> 00:05:55,396 Speaker 2: of Philadelphia, and he drew me in. So it was 85 00:05:55,516 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 2: not difficult at all. When you asked me, do I 86 00:05:59,276 --> 00:06:03,796 Speaker 2: have a story that you might want to expand into 87 00:06:03,876 --> 00:06:06,916 Speaker 2: a series? I knew exactly what I was going to 88 00:06:06,996 --> 00:06:10,516 Speaker 2: ask you about. I needed to hear the whole story. 89 00:06:10,996 --> 00:06:14,516 Speaker 1: When you originally get this interview with Scott and you 90 00:06:14,596 --> 00:06:17,676 Speaker 1: think to yourself, Wow, I'd like to hear kind of 91 00:06:18,316 --> 00:06:21,276 Speaker 1: I guess, more perspectives on this story, kind of different 92 00:06:21,276 --> 00:06:25,196 Speaker 1: players involved. Who are the other people that you're thinking, Yeah, 93 00:06:25,196 --> 00:06:26,436 Speaker 1: I'd like to know what their deal is. 94 00:06:27,076 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 2: Definitely the family when I'm talking to Scott, always, always 95 00:06:33,516 --> 00:06:38,516 Speaker 2: right in the back of my mind is this nameless 96 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:43,156 Speaker 2: man and who he is and his family and what 97 00:06:43,396 --> 00:06:49,516 Speaker 2: they're wondering and feeling. That was always present because you know, 98 00:06:49,636 --> 00:06:53,756 Speaker 2: I'm thinking if that was my son or my brother 99 00:06:54,236 --> 00:06:58,476 Speaker 2: or uncle, I would have always wanted to know what happened. 100 00:06:59,116 --> 00:07:01,476 Speaker 2: The thing that really got to me, And of course 101 00:07:02,716 --> 00:07:06,116 Speaker 2: Aaron Wood's mother had passed away before you did this, 102 00:07:06,636 --> 00:07:12,236 Speaker 2: but I really, you know, it really got to me 103 00:07:12,396 --> 00:07:16,796 Speaker 2: that she did have the opportunity to learn about what 104 00:07:17,036 --> 00:07:21,196 Speaker 2: happened to her son, and that had to be something 105 00:07:21,996 --> 00:07:27,316 Speaker 2: that helped her to know the truth behind that, because 106 00:07:27,756 --> 00:07:30,396 Speaker 2: not knowing what happened to him, why he died, how 107 00:07:30,436 --> 00:07:34,516 Speaker 2: he died what obviously was a hole in her life 108 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:37,796 Speaker 2: because it was so painful, she didn't want to speak 109 00:07:37,836 --> 00:07:42,396 Speaker 2: about it, but she was able to find those answers 110 00:07:42,916 --> 00:07:47,596 Speaker 2: through the trial. And that makes me feel good that, 111 00:07:48,076 --> 00:07:52,436 Speaker 2: you know, an FBI agent, you know, and an ATF 112 00:07:52,516 --> 00:07:55,796 Speaker 2: agent was able to do that for this woman that 113 00:07:55,956 --> 00:07:58,236 Speaker 2: you know, they'd never met. That that really meant a 114 00:07:58,236 --> 00:07:58,836 Speaker 2: lot to me too. 115 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:02,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's interesting when I went down and interviewed 116 00:08:02,236 --> 00:08:08,956 Speaker 1: them and realized that that they were in this question 117 00:08:08,956 --> 00:08:12,236 Speaker 1: of their own to find the perpetrator who they didn't know. 118 00:08:13,276 --> 00:08:16,756 Speaker 1: That's when I had this aha moment to call this 119 00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:21,276 Speaker 1: series the Nameless Man, because I had talked to Scott 120 00:08:21,276 --> 00:08:23,916 Speaker 1: and Terry and they were searching for this nameless man 121 00:08:24,156 --> 00:08:25,956 Speaker 1: who is the victim, and they need the victim to 122 00:08:25,996 --> 00:08:29,436 Speaker 1: make the case. And then there's this parallel story where 123 00:08:29,476 --> 00:08:31,996 Speaker 1: the family had a nameless man of their own they 124 00:08:31,996 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 1: were searching for, which is who killed their brother and 125 00:08:34,756 --> 00:08:35,196 Speaker 1: their son. 126 00:08:35,676 --> 00:08:39,436 Speaker 2: Wow. I never thought of that. Yeah, that is pretty cool. 127 00:08:39,636 --> 00:08:43,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it it felt like it took a 128 00:08:43,076 --> 00:08:44,716 Speaker 1: little bit of the pressure off Scott and Terry. This 129 00:08:45,636 --> 00:08:48,476 Speaker 1: wasn't just their story, it was also the story of 130 00:08:48,516 --> 00:08:50,436 Speaker 1: the Wood family and their quest. 131 00:08:51,036 --> 00:08:58,516 Speaker 2: The whole case just gives us hope, And I say, 132 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:05,516 Speaker 2: that when we talk about Craig Peterson, because his story 133 00:09:05,596 --> 00:09:09,836 Speaker 2: about his background is also a kind of a story 134 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:11,316 Speaker 2: of self hate. 135 00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:14,196 Speaker 1: Wouldn't you say, yeah, so let's talk about Craig because 136 00:09:14,196 --> 00:09:18,436 Speaker 1: this was this was a shock to me. In fact, 137 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:21,196 Speaker 1: I'll just there's a bit of tabe you want to 138 00:09:21,196 --> 00:09:24,676 Speaker 1: play here from Carmen Weinberger, who was thesis and Da 139 00:09:24,876 --> 00:09:29,356 Speaker 1: and she when they're putting the case together, is meeting 140 00:09:29,476 --> 00:09:30,596 Speaker 1: Craig for the first time. 141 00:09:32,276 --> 00:09:37,076 Speaker 4: I looked at him and felt Peterson's a skinhead. He 142 00:09:37,116 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 4: looks like he's mixed with black. I remember that he 143 00:09:42,556 --> 00:09:49,956 Speaker 4: has an olive complexion that causes me to believe I'm biracial, 144 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:56,716 Speaker 4: So I pay attention to those things. I always thought 145 00:09:56,716 --> 00:10:00,076 Speaker 4: he was mixed somewhere in there. I don't know if 146 00:10:00,076 --> 00:10:03,716 Speaker 4: he was adopted. Maybe he didn't realize it, maybe he did, 147 00:10:04,756 --> 00:10:08,196 Speaker 4: but I always thought, and to this day I can 148 00:10:08,436 --> 00:10:12,356 Speaker 4: remember and see his faith. He looked like he could 149 00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:13,036 Speaker 4: have been relative. 150 00:10:14,956 --> 00:10:16,596 Speaker 1: What was your reaction when you heard that. 151 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:22,876 Speaker 2: Jerry Mine blowing. It's so sad to think that someone 152 00:10:22,916 --> 00:10:27,716 Speaker 2: could be so confused about who they are and where 153 00:10:27,716 --> 00:10:32,316 Speaker 2: they fit that they would choose to take a side 154 00:10:33,036 --> 00:10:38,716 Speaker 2: where there is genuine hate and hostility to the other 155 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:43,396 Speaker 2: half of who they are. It's I did not know 156 00:10:43,516 --> 00:10:46,956 Speaker 2: this when I interviewed Scott. That just never came up. 157 00:10:47,396 --> 00:10:49,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes you know how this goes, 158 00:10:51,796 --> 00:10:54,836 Speaker 1: there's there's a kind of burning question that you feel 159 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:58,156 Speaker 1: that you didn't get to the bottom of. That's my 160 00:10:58,356 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 1: that's my burning question with this series about this because 161 00:11:02,076 --> 00:11:05,356 Speaker 1: if that is in fact true, if Craig is biracial, 162 00:11:05,396 --> 00:11:10,676 Speaker 1: then the question of how he got involve this white 163 00:11:10,716 --> 00:11:12,956 Speaker 1: supremacist group and then in fact went on to commit 164 00:11:13,116 --> 00:11:17,396 Speaker 1: murder based on its ideology, it raises a million questions. 165 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:21,116 Speaker 1: So I'm hopeful that maybe Craig will somehow decide that 166 00:11:21,156 --> 00:11:24,156 Speaker 1: he wants to talk. Just to be clear here, I 167 00:11:24,276 --> 00:11:27,276 Speaker 1: never got Craig to go on the record and confirm 168 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 1: for me whether or not he was biracial. 169 00:11:30,516 --> 00:11:32,956 Speaker 2: Well, all I have to say is that when I 170 00:11:33,316 --> 00:11:40,436 Speaker 2: suggested that you look into this case, I needed the 171 00:11:40,516 --> 00:11:43,916 Speaker 2: answers that I wasn't able to get from just interviewing Scott, 172 00:11:44,436 --> 00:11:50,356 Speaker 2: and you delivered. I mean you delivered. And if you 173 00:11:50,396 --> 00:11:53,716 Speaker 2: could just now get that interview with Craig so we 174 00:11:53,796 --> 00:11:58,756 Speaker 2: can find out more about him, then you would have 175 00:11:58,796 --> 00:12:01,796 Speaker 2: hit it out of the park. So that's your challenge. 176 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:04,316 Speaker 2: I'm still hoping that Craig is going to have an 177 00:12:04,356 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 2: opportunity to listen to this and to understand that we 178 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:13,476 Speaker 2: really do want to hear from him, not in a 179 00:12:13,676 --> 00:12:18,036 Speaker 2: judgmental way, but in a way that again allows us 180 00:12:18,076 --> 00:12:22,956 Speaker 2: to come full circle and to get understanding and hope 181 00:12:23,596 --> 00:12:30,716 Speaker 2: that people who hate are able to recognize and resolve 182 00:12:30,956 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 2: those feelings and move on to a better place. So 183 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:39,996 Speaker 2: Craig talk to Jake. 184 00:12:42,556 --> 00:12:45,636 Speaker 1: After the break, I discussed the jury and their verdict 185 00:12:45,996 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 1: with Beth Wilson Devlin. 186 00:12:56,756 --> 00:12:58,436 Speaker 5: I listened to the whole thing. Actually, I thought it 187 00:12:58,476 --> 00:12:59,196 Speaker 5: was very interesting. 188 00:12:59,276 --> 00:13:01,556 Speaker 1: Wow, that's great. Yeah. 189 00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:02,796 Speaker 2: I'm not a. 190 00:13:02,756 --> 00:13:05,236 Speaker 5: Podcast person either, so I thought it was very good. 191 00:13:06,556 --> 00:13:10,756 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. You you now 192 00:13:10,836 --> 00:13:13,836 Speaker 1: fall into the same class as my family members who 193 00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:18,356 Speaker 1: I guilt into listening to my work. That's Beth Wilson Devlin. 194 00:13:18,676 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 1: She's a partner at Edge Litigation Consulting. She's a jury 195 00:13:22,276 --> 00:13:27,196 Speaker 1: consultant and admittedly not a podcast listener. But I reached 196 00:13:27,236 --> 00:13:30,076 Speaker 1: out to Beth to discuss the verdict in this case. 197 00:13:30,676 --> 00:13:33,316 Speaker 1: And if you recall back in two thousand and eight, 198 00:13:33,756 --> 00:13:37,916 Speaker 1: Thomas Guybison was found guilty on two counts conspiracy to 199 00:13:37,956 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 1: commit murder and a weapon charge. He was acquitted on 200 00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:45,596 Speaker 1: the murder and ethnic intimidation charges. The press at the 201 00:13:45,636 --> 00:13:50,756 Speaker 1: time called this verdict quote bizarre. But I wanted Beth's 202 00:13:50,756 --> 00:13:53,636 Speaker 1: take on all of this, and we started off talking 203 00:13:53,796 --> 00:13:56,716 Speaker 1: about the process of how a jury is even chosen. 204 00:13:56,876 --> 00:14:01,476 Speaker 1: In the first place. There's a jury selection process in 205 00:14:01,516 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 1: which you're going through potential jurors and weeding some ow 206 00:14:06,276 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 1: can you can you just talk us through that a 207 00:14:08,756 --> 00:14:10,436 Speaker 1: little bit about how that works. 208 00:14:11,276 --> 00:14:15,156 Speaker 5: That varies dramatically from venue to venue. Sometimes it's just 209 00:14:15,236 --> 00:14:19,276 Speaker 5: the judge asking questions of the jurors. Sometimes you get 210 00:14:19,316 --> 00:14:21,716 Speaker 5: an opportunity as a lawyer to be able to ask 211 00:14:21,836 --> 00:14:25,396 Speaker 5: questions of the jurors. Sometimes you have information in the 212 00:14:25,396 --> 00:14:28,076 Speaker 5: form of a questionnaire that jurors have that they either 213 00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:30,276 Speaker 5: fill out at the time or they fill out in 214 00:14:30,316 --> 00:14:32,916 Speaker 5: advance of the jury selection process. So there's lots of 215 00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:35,156 Speaker 5: different ways that you can get information. But what that 216 00:14:35,236 --> 00:14:38,236 Speaker 5: information is and how much you have is really depend 217 00:14:38,476 --> 00:14:41,476 Speaker 5: dependent upon the venue. So one thing I will just say, 218 00:14:42,156 --> 00:14:45,836 Speaker 5: because I did I listened to the podcasts and uh, 219 00:14:45,956 --> 00:14:47,676 Speaker 5: you know, you talk about it as being a jury 220 00:14:47,676 --> 00:14:49,636 Speaker 5: selection process, which is what a lot of people think 221 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:51,956 Speaker 5: it is because that's what it's called jury selection. But 222 00:14:51,996 --> 00:14:55,636 Speaker 5: it's actually a de selection process. So you're not actually 223 00:14:55,996 --> 00:14:58,116 Speaker 5: picking the jurors that are going to be on the 224 00:14:58,156 --> 00:15:00,196 Speaker 5: panel that are going to decide the case. What you 225 00:15:00,236 --> 00:15:02,756 Speaker 5: are doing is you are of a group of people. 226 00:15:02,956 --> 00:15:05,676 Speaker 5: You have to decide who do I not want on 227 00:15:05,756 --> 00:15:08,716 Speaker 5: this panel for one reason or another. You know, usually 228 00:15:08,796 --> 00:15:11,996 Speaker 5: it's because you have a belief that this particular juror 229 00:15:11,996 --> 00:15:14,116 Speaker 5: that you're going to strike off the panel is somebody 230 00:15:14,156 --> 00:15:16,436 Speaker 5: who you know is not going to be open minded 231 00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:17,036 Speaker 5: to your case. 232 00:15:18,276 --> 00:15:21,236 Speaker 1: So if you're Roger King, the prosecutor in this case, 233 00:15:21,756 --> 00:15:24,116 Speaker 1: who what are the types of jurors that you're looking 234 00:15:24,156 --> 00:15:26,796 Speaker 1: to kind of weed out to maximize your chances of winning? 235 00:15:27,076 --> 00:15:30,836 Speaker 5: Right? So I think about it like, okay, So for example, 236 00:15:31,756 --> 00:15:33,316 Speaker 5: when I talk to my clients, I talk to that 237 00:15:33,556 --> 00:15:36,276 Speaker 5: as basically you're looking at vampires. Right. So it's like 238 00:15:36,596 --> 00:15:40,836 Speaker 5: you have a group of individuals and you have so 239 00:15:40,916 --> 00:15:42,516 Speaker 5: many people that are going to be the ones that 240 00:15:42,556 --> 00:15:45,276 Speaker 5: are just you know, your worst case scenario, and you 241 00:15:45,316 --> 00:15:47,356 Speaker 5: want to try to identify who those individuals are, and 242 00:15:47,396 --> 00:15:50,116 Speaker 5: you have so many wooden stakes that you can use, right, 243 00:15:50,756 --> 00:15:53,076 Speaker 5: so what you want to be looking for in the 244 00:15:53,076 --> 00:15:57,676 Speaker 5: case of the prosecution. I think they actually have the 245 00:15:57,716 --> 00:16:01,196 Speaker 5: advantage in this case because most of the jurors in 246 00:16:01,276 --> 00:16:04,636 Speaker 5: the pool are likely going to be in favor of 247 00:16:04,716 --> 00:16:08,436 Speaker 5: the prosecution based on the information in the case. So 248 00:16:08,636 --> 00:16:10,876 Speaker 5: if it were and I were advising the prosecution, I'd 249 00:16:10,916 --> 00:16:15,316 Speaker 5: be looking for individuals who, for example, are what I 250 00:16:15,316 --> 00:16:19,356 Speaker 5: would call critical thinkers. They're people who are, for example, 251 00:16:19,356 --> 00:16:22,396 Speaker 5: they might be in professions where they're very very detail oriented, 252 00:16:22,956 --> 00:16:28,116 Speaker 5: very evidence based, people like accountants, people like engineers, people 253 00:16:28,276 --> 00:16:32,156 Speaker 5: like people who have science backgrounds, like, for example, the 254 00:16:32,236 --> 00:16:35,036 Speaker 5: juror Bob, he was one. He's a perfect example of thing. 255 00:16:36,396 --> 00:16:39,276 Speaker 1: You're saying this, and I'm like, you're describing Bob, who 256 00:16:39,356 --> 00:16:42,116 Speaker 1: is who is not entirely convinced by the prosecution. 257 00:16:42,356 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's exactly the kind of situation. And I think 258 00:16:44,516 --> 00:16:47,436 Speaker 5: he was absolutely well intentioned and taking his job very 259 00:16:47,556 --> 00:16:50,396 Speaker 5: very seriously. But that's an example of someone who is 260 00:16:50,476 --> 00:16:53,316 Speaker 5: going to look he's not going to be satisfied by 261 00:16:53,436 --> 00:16:57,996 Speaker 5: eyewitness testimony, by circumstantial evidence, like most jurors actually are 262 00:16:58,036 --> 00:17:01,316 Speaker 5: in these sorts of situations. In these cases, most people 263 00:17:01,356 --> 00:17:03,116 Speaker 5: are going to be satisfied by that, but someone like 264 00:17:03,116 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 5: a Bob is going to be more interested in saying, 265 00:17:05,676 --> 00:17:09,516 Speaker 5: I need to see the actual evidence in this case. 266 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:11,756 Speaker 5: I need to see the connection, the link between this 267 00:17:11,796 --> 00:17:13,556 Speaker 5: piece of evidence and that piece of evidence. 268 00:17:14,436 --> 00:17:17,236 Speaker 1: By that same logic, is the prosecution in this case 269 00:17:17,956 --> 00:17:20,396 Speaker 1: I do looking for someone who's going to be motivated 270 00:17:20,836 --> 00:17:22,756 Speaker 1: by the kind of emotionality of the case. 271 00:17:22,996 --> 00:17:25,396 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think so. Somebody like if the 272 00:17:25,436 --> 00:17:28,116 Speaker 5: prosecution had the opportunity to say, who do I want 273 00:17:28,396 --> 00:17:30,596 Speaker 5: on my jury, They're going to be looking for someone 274 00:17:30,636 --> 00:17:33,836 Speaker 5: who is more emotionally, more sort of gut level. I 275 00:17:33,916 --> 00:17:35,756 Speaker 5: have a gut reaction to the case, and I'm more 276 00:17:35,836 --> 00:17:38,756 Speaker 5: likely to say I don't need you know, beyond a 277 00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:41,596 Speaker 5: reasonable doubt, I have enough here to say if it 278 00:17:41,636 --> 00:17:43,356 Speaker 5: looks like a duck and it walks like a duck, 279 00:17:43,396 --> 00:17:44,196 Speaker 5: it must be a duck. 280 00:17:44,356 --> 00:17:46,316 Speaker 1: Okay. I want to ask you about something else, which 281 00:17:46,316 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 1: is kind of a sensitive question, but one that feels 282 00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:53,476 Speaker 1: relevant and important, which is race. If you're coming into 283 00:17:53,516 --> 00:17:58,236 Speaker 1: this this situation as Roger King, and if I'm the prosecution, 284 00:17:58,436 --> 00:18:01,956 Speaker 1: and I ask you, and I'm saying, Beth, can I 285 00:18:02,036 --> 00:18:05,676 Speaker 1: assume can I make assumptions based on race? 286 00:18:06,396 --> 00:18:09,876 Speaker 5: Well, so a couple things. You can't strike based just 287 00:18:10,076 --> 00:18:13,596 Speaker 5: on race. So there's something called a bats In challenge 288 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:16,516 Speaker 5: that if there is a pattern of one side or 289 00:18:16,556 --> 00:18:19,356 Speaker 5: another doing something like that, then they can raise the 290 00:18:19,396 --> 00:18:21,876 Speaker 5: bats In challenge because you can't strike just based on 291 00:18:21,916 --> 00:18:26,076 Speaker 5: something like race. Gender is another example for bats In challenge. 292 00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:29,476 Speaker 5: So you can't do that, but you can strike somebody 293 00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:33,436 Speaker 5: who is of, you know, a particular race or ethnicity 294 00:18:33,796 --> 00:18:37,036 Speaker 5: if you have other reasons for doing that. The way 295 00:18:37,076 --> 00:18:39,116 Speaker 5: I think about it in this case is, you know, yes, 296 00:18:39,196 --> 00:18:42,556 Speaker 5: there's certainly a racially motivated component to it, So to 297 00:18:42,596 --> 00:18:47,156 Speaker 5: say that that isn't relevant would be ridiculous really, But 298 00:18:47,236 --> 00:18:49,676 Speaker 5: I think what we're talking about is a situation where 299 00:18:50,116 --> 00:18:53,156 Speaker 5: you're looking for people who, Okay, is this somebody who 300 00:18:53,636 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 5: has experienced racial discrimination? Is this somebody who's experience being 301 00:18:57,516 --> 00:19:00,436 Speaker 5: targeted because of the color of their skin, And so 302 00:19:00,636 --> 00:19:02,476 Speaker 5: that's the sort of thing that you're looking for. So 303 00:19:02,556 --> 00:19:06,796 Speaker 5: if I'm, for example, you know, advising for the defendant, 304 00:19:07,676 --> 00:19:10,556 Speaker 5: I'd be concerned about people who have had experiences like that, 305 00:19:10,596 --> 00:19:13,876 Speaker 5: who have had experiences where they've been targeted because of 306 00:19:13,996 --> 00:19:16,716 Speaker 5: the color of their skin, because of their ethnicity, or 307 00:19:16,836 --> 00:19:19,876 Speaker 5: racially targeted in some way. I'd be concerned about someone 308 00:19:19,916 --> 00:19:20,196 Speaker 5: like that. 309 00:19:20,676 --> 00:19:23,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, you use the vampire analogy, which made me think, 310 00:19:23,236 --> 00:19:24,956 Speaker 1: you know, what is it the vampire? You break out 311 00:19:24,956 --> 00:19:26,916 Speaker 1: the garlick or the crucifix, and you know you've got 312 00:19:26,956 --> 00:19:30,476 Speaker 1: a vampire. But some people may just wear their biases 313 00:19:30,516 --> 00:19:34,036 Speaker 1: on their sleeve, but most of us are fairly adept 314 00:19:33,556 --> 00:19:39,236 Speaker 1: at hiding, particularly viewpoints that we may rightly sense are 315 00:19:39,276 --> 00:19:41,316 Speaker 1: going to be a liability. You're going to turn people off. 316 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 1: So how do you ferret that out? 317 00:19:42,796 --> 00:19:45,276 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's a situation where the questionnaire is 318 00:19:45,316 --> 00:19:47,156 Speaker 5: really the better way to go, because that's a situation 319 00:19:47,196 --> 00:19:49,356 Speaker 5: where people are going to be much more candid if 320 00:19:49,356 --> 00:19:51,756 Speaker 5: they don't have to look someone else in the eye, 321 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:54,436 Speaker 5: where there's a much more of a sense of being 322 00:19:54,556 --> 00:19:55,636 Speaker 5: judged in that room. 323 00:19:56,076 --> 00:19:58,676 Speaker 1: Okay, So we talked a little bit through Roger King 324 00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:00,436 Speaker 1: and what he would want, and you kind of address this. 325 00:20:00,516 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 1: But I want to ask you, if you're Mike Ferrell, 326 00:20:02,916 --> 00:20:05,556 Speaker 1: the defense attorney, and you've got this client here, who 327 00:20:05,636 --> 00:20:08,196 Speaker 1: is being accused of murder who at one point in 328 00:20:08,236 --> 00:20:11,996 Speaker 1: his life was is a skinhead, and all the kind 329 00:20:12,036 --> 00:20:16,476 Speaker 1: of baggage that brings with it. Who are the people 330 00:20:16,556 --> 00:20:20,476 Speaker 1: that you want and don't want on the jury From 331 00:20:20,476 --> 00:20:21,676 Speaker 1: the defense perspective. 332 00:20:23,076 --> 00:20:27,796 Speaker 5: If I'm the defense in this case, I have a 333 00:20:27,836 --> 00:20:30,116 Speaker 5: hard job because, as I said before, I think that 334 00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:32,036 Speaker 5: if you look at the grand scheme of how many 335 00:20:32,076 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 5: people like all the perspective jurors, most of them are 336 00:20:35,036 --> 00:20:37,196 Speaker 5: likely going to be prosecution oriented in this sort of 337 00:20:37,196 --> 00:20:41,716 Speaker 5: a case. So I'm going to be concerned about somebody 338 00:20:41,756 --> 00:20:45,436 Speaker 5: who is, you know, very much pro law and order type. 339 00:20:45,476 --> 00:20:49,116 Speaker 5: Somebody who you know is interested in, you know what 340 00:20:49,156 --> 00:20:51,916 Speaker 5: the police say. They have very favorable viewpoints of the police. 341 00:20:52,676 --> 00:20:56,516 Speaker 5: They trust the police, they trust you know, prosecutors, they 342 00:20:56,556 --> 00:20:58,876 Speaker 5: think that they do a good job. That's the sort 343 00:20:58,916 --> 00:21:00,676 Speaker 5: of thing where I'd be concerned about someone like that, 344 00:21:01,116 --> 00:21:04,076 Speaker 5: somebody that I would like if I'm the defendant, I'd 345 00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:07,916 Speaker 5: be interested in again the sort of the bobs, right, 346 00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:10,956 Speaker 5: the people that are going to really hold the prosecution 347 00:21:11,196 --> 00:21:14,076 Speaker 5: to a standard, to that beyond a reasonable doubt standard, 348 00:21:14,516 --> 00:21:18,196 Speaker 5: who probably are going to be concerned with the idea 349 00:21:18,276 --> 00:21:22,036 Speaker 5: of circumstantial evidence or eyewitness testimony, particularly when you're talking 350 00:21:22,076 --> 00:21:25,876 Speaker 5: about eyewitness testimony that occurred you know, you know, years 351 00:21:25,876 --> 00:21:29,116 Speaker 5: and years ago where memories fade as as you talked 352 00:21:29,116 --> 00:21:31,076 Speaker 5: about in the podcast, that's exactly the kind of thing 353 00:21:31,356 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 5: where some jurors are going to be really concerned about 354 00:21:33,716 --> 00:21:36,556 Speaker 5: putting someone in prison for the rest of their life 355 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:42,196 Speaker 5: on that sort of evidence. I probably would also be 356 00:21:42,356 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 5: interested in, you know, men who maybe don't hold super 357 00:21:46,276 --> 00:21:49,676 Speaker 5: favorable views of women, who you know, have been scorned 358 00:21:49,716 --> 00:21:52,436 Speaker 5: by women in the past, who have been you know, 359 00:21:53,436 --> 00:21:58,196 Speaker 5: who have been betrayed, you know, by someone close to them, 360 00:21:58,236 --> 00:22:00,036 Speaker 5: someone like that, who's going to somehow be able to 361 00:22:00,076 --> 00:22:04,676 Speaker 5: make a personal connection to the defendant, skinhead or not skinhead. 362 00:22:04,676 --> 00:22:06,956 Speaker 5: There could be lots of ways that someone can personally 363 00:22:07,036 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 5: identify with a defendant who would be willing to fight 364 00:22:10,236 --> 00:22:11,596 Speaker 5: for that defendant. 365 00:22:12,676 --> 00:22:14,756 Speaker 1: That's interesting. But how do you that's like a very 366 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:17,836 Speaker 1: personal thing. How do you how would you suss that out? 367 00:22:18,036 --> 00:22:20,196 Speaker 5: Yeah, so, I mean it kind of depends on the 368 00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:22,876 Speaker 5: process again, right, So we go back to what kind 369 00:22:22,916 --> 00:22:25,316 Speaker 5: of information are you likely to get. If you're not 370 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:27,036 Speaker 5: going to be able to ask the questions, then it 371 00:22:27,076 --> 00:22:28,756 Speaker 5: doesn't really matter. You're not gonna be able to ssess 372 00:22:28,756 --> 00:22:30,676 Speaker 5: that out. But if you have a situation where you 373 00:22:30,716 --> 00:22:32,956 Speaker 5: could ask, you know, very point blank, if they've ever 374 00:22:32,996 --> 00:22:35,676 Speaker 5: been betrayed by a close friend, or you know, a 375 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:38,396 Speaker 5: situation where you know they've ever been wrongly accused. Those 376 00:22:38,436 --> 00:22:40,836 Speaker 5: are questions that you might be able to ask in 377 00:22:40,916 --> 00:22:44,316 Speaker 5: the Vais deir process, and that juror, you know, will 378 00:22:44,436 --> 00:22:47,076 Speaker 5: you know, they have to respond truthfully. That doesn't mean 379 00:22:47,076 --> 00:22:50,036 Speaker 5: that they will, but just sometimes even their hesitations or 380 00:22:50,076 --> 00:22:52,716 Speaker 5: the way they say things can help you understand how 381 00:22:52,756 --> 00:22:55,076 Speaker 5: they're reacting and what they're likely to be thinking. 382 00:22:56,236 --> 00:22:58,996 Speaker 1: These lawyers did have a chance to ask the jurors questions. 383 00:22:59,156 --> 00:23:01,156 Speaker 1: I know that the defense lawyer asked, would you be 384 00:23:01,156 --> 00:23:03,236 Speaker 1: able to suspend judgments about someone who said they were 385 00:23:03,276 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 1: a skinhead? Is anyone policing those questions? 386 00:23:06,276 --> 00:23:07,916 Speaker 5: So if the judge is there, then they're going to 387 00:23:07,916 --> 00:23:09,876 Speaker 5: be the ones policing that. There could also be a 388 00:23:09,916 --> 00:23:12,116 Speaker 5: magistrate there, so it's not the judge, but it's a 389 00:23:12,156 --> 00:23:15,756 Speaker 5: magistrate that's doing that, somebody who's basically, you know, the 390 00:23:15,876 --> 00:23:17,636 Speaker 5: umpire of those sorts of questions. 391 00:23:17,996 --> 00:23:20,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I'm thinking like you would you ask a juror, sir, 392 00:23:20,876 --> 00:23:21,916 Speaker 1: have you been divorced? 393 00:23:22,076 --> 00:23:22,276 Speaker 3: Sir? 394 00:23:22,436 --> 00:23:25,516 Speaker 1: Has was it an acrimonious divorce where you had to 395 00:23:25,516 --> 00:23:29,436 Speaker 1: fight over custody? And trying to get at that issue 396 00:23:29,476 --> 00:23:31,836 Speaker 1: is is this someone who's going to kind of be 397 00:23:32,356 --> 00:23:33,636 Speaker 1: you know, angry at women. 398 00:23:34,276 --> 00:23:37,276 Speaker 5: Those are questions that could get at that, right you 399 00:23:37,596 --> 00:23:40,516 Speaker 5: can start to make inferences from that, but that's farther 400 00:23:40,636 --> 00:23:43,996 Speaker 5: removed from the actual question. So I might you know, 401 00:23:43,996 --> 00:23:47,476 Speaker 5: if you're asking a more specific question that can help 402 00:23:47,636 --> 00:23:50,036 Speaker 5: more pointedly get at the the idea that you're trying 403 00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:51,956 Speaker 5: to get at, Like something like, you know, have you 404 00:23:51,996 --> 00:23:55,516 Speaker 5: ever had girlfriends, you know, or people that you've dated 405 00:23:55,636 --> 00:23:58,116 Speaker 5: just lie about you and and you know, make things up? 406 00:23:58,156 --> 00:24:00,356 Speaker 5: And have you ever had a situation where you know 407 00:24:00,476 --> 00:24:03,436 Speaker 5: they've you know, said things about you and and hurt 408 00:24:03,516 --> 00:24:07,516 Speaker 5: your reputation you know, you know, in your community. So 409 00:24:07,796 --> 00:24:10,556 Speaker 5: that's a situation where someone like who's had an experience 410 00:24:10,596 --> 00:24:12,876 Speaker 5: like that, then they say yes, and then they start 411 00:24:12,916 --> 00:24:15,516 Speaker 5: to kind of reveal some of the you know, the 412 00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:17,636 Speaker 5: the inner workings of themselves, if you will. 413 00:24:18,076 --> 00:24:21,196 Speaker 1: One of the limited exit interviews that has done at 414 00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:23,116 Speaker 1: the time with a juror, the one thing that he 415 00:24:23,236 --> 00:24:26,476 Speaker 1: said to the to the press was something of the 416 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:29,076 Speaker 1: effect of one of the ex girl friends was baddie 417 00:24:29,396 --> 00:24:34,756 Speaker 1: and just fixating on, you know, emotionality and the personality 418 00:24:34,796 --> 00:24:38,676 Speaker 1: of one of these ex girlfriends, which seemed like an 419 00:24:38,716 --> 00:24:44,036 Speaker 1: odd thing to base a desire to quit on. But 420 00:24:44,076 --> 00:24:44,876 Speaker 1: I'm hearing you. 421 00:24:44,956 --> 00:24:47,356 Speaker 6: It's if that's resonating with you on a personal level, 422 00:24:47,636 --> 00:24:49,956 Speaker 6: and you're the jur and you're thinking, oh, she reminds 423 00:24:50,036 --> 00:24:52,156 Speaker 6: me of of this person in my life who was 424 00:24:52,196 --> 00:24:54,676 Speaker 6: a nightmare and did these things to me and my god, 425 00:24:54,756 --> 00:24:57,196 Speaker 6: like I can't take her word for anything, then you 426 00:24:57,236 --> 00:25:00,676 Speaker 6: could quickly see how that like, because it's not all logic. 427 00:25:00,436 --> 00:25:03,236 Speaker 5: Right, that's absolutely right. I mean, that's a situation where 428 00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:06,636 Speaker 5: I so that one holdout dur I doubt he was 429 00:25:06,676 --> 00:25:09,076 Speaker 5: a critical thinker, not like a Bob right you talked 430 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:11,876 Speaker 5: of the different camps in this situation. This guy was 431 00:25:11,916 --> 00:25:16,036 Speaker 5: probably more likely someone who did personally identify with the defendant, 432 00:25:16,076 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 5: maybe not necessarily from a you know, racism level, although 433 00:25:19,836 --> 00:25:22,236 Speaker 5: that might have been there too. It sounded like this 434 00:25:22,316 --> 00:25:25,556 Speaker 5: particular jur didn't want to talk and really kind of 435 00:25:25,556 --> 00:25:29,756 Speaker 5: go into detail to sort of reveal his thinking. As 436 00:25:29,796 --> 00:25:33,036 Speaker 5: to why he was so strongly for the defendant, and 437 00:25:33,076 --> 00:25:35,596 Speaker 5: that can be an indicator of someone who you know, 438 00:25:35,716 --> 00:25:37,956 Speaker 5: isn't a critical thinker, but rather as someone who's personally 439 00:25:37,996 --> 00:25:41,276 Speaker 5: identified with the case, with a particular defendant and just 440 00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:43,716 Speaker 5: no matter what, is going to stand by, you know, 441 00:25:43,836 --> 00:25:46,956 Speaker 5: his position and doesn't want to be challenged. It doesn't 442 00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:49,116 Speaker 5: want to get into the debate with other jurors, and 443 00:25:49,116 --> 00:25:52,676 Speaker 5: that can be incredibly frustrating for the other jurors because 444 00:25:52,716 --> 00:25:54,556 Speaker 5: they don't have anything to work with, you know. 445 00:25:56,036 --> 00:25:57,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you talk about it that way and we 446 00:25:58,036 --> 00:26:02,436 Speaker 1: think about it this way, it's funny because the idea 447 00:26:02,476 --> 00:26:05,436 Speaker 1: of a trial by jury is such an underpinning of 448 00:26:05,476 --> 00:26:08,716 Speaker 1: our sense of American democracy and in so many ways 449 00:26:08,796 --> 00:26:10,676 Speaker 1: it feels. 450 00:26:10,316 --> 00:26:12,556 Speaker 5: Like it's it's it's wonderful. 451 00:26:13,076 --> 00:26:15,796 Speaker 6: And yet you can have a situation where in theory, 452 00:26:16,956 --> 00:26:19,916 Speaker 6: some witness reminds him of his crazy ex girlfriend, and 453 00:26:19,956 --> 00:26:22,956 Speaker 6: on that basis, he's the holdout that forces a decision, 454 00:26:23,356 --> 00:26:25,076 Speaker 6: and when seen in that light, it seems like an 455 00:26:25,116 --> 00:26:26,356 Speaker 6: absolutely crazy system. 456 00:26:26,836 --> 00:26:29,116 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, but I will say this, I mean, 457 00:26:29,556 --> 00:26:31,916 Speaker 5: that's true, and we are all a product of our 458 00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:36,396 Speaker 5: own you know, experiences and the world views that are 459 00:26:36,436 --> 00:26:38,716 Speaker 5: formed from those experiences in the adagies and beliefs that 460 00:26:38,716 --> 00:26:41,156 Speaker 5: we have. Everybody has them, no one is exempt from that. 461 00:26:41,916 --> 00:26:44,316 Speaker 5: But I think the one thing about the jury system, 462 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:46,676 Speaker 5: I mean, I will say from my experience, I've been 463 00:26:46,716 --> 00:26:49,796 Speaker 5: doing this for just a little over twenty five years now, 464 00:26:50,316 --> 00:26:55,236 Speaker 5: and I would say that there's not one jury that 465 00:26:55,316 --> 00:27:00,676 Speaker 5: I've ever encountered that wasn't well intentioned, that wasn't trying 466 00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:03,316 Speaker 5: to do the right thing. I think what happens is 467 00:27:03,356 --> 00:27:06,876 Speaker 5: sometimes you have these kind of little, you know, hiccups. 468 00:27:06,916 --> 00:27:10,556 Speaker 5: And I don't mean to minimize the situation, because I 469 00:27:10,556 --> 00:27:14,076 Speaker 5: think the verdict in this case was was tragic. I 470 00:27:14,076 --> 00:27:16,796 Speaker 5: think that you know, people just buy and large would 471 00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:20,876 Speaker 5: agree that this guy, even if there wasn't enough to 472 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:24,076 Speaker 5: link him to this particular murder, and I think arguably 473 00:27:24,116 --> 00:27:27,396 Speaker 5: there was, there certainly was enough to suggest that he 474 00:27:28,356 --> 00:27:31,956 Speaker 5: had gone and done something pretty bad, and you know 475 00:27:32,156 --> 00:27:34,836 Speaker 5: that that he killed somebody. The question is is did 476 00:27:34,836 --> 00:27:37,556 Speaker 5: they get the right one? So I think in that situation, 477 00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:40,156 Speaker 5: I think that jurors, again they're well intentioned, they're trying 478 00:27:40,196 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 5: to do the right thing, but there can be in 479 00:27:42,516 --> 00:27:46,396 Speaker 5: those in some circumstances, particularly when you're talking about murder 480 00:27:46,596 --> 00:27:50,196 Speaker 5: one where you're talking about taking away someone's liberty forever. 481 00:27:51,156 --> 00:27:53,916 Speaker 5: You know, some jurors are going to be they're they're 482 00:27:54,036 --> 00:27:56,396 Speaker 5: just more likely you're going to see that that element 483 00:27:56,476 --> 00:27:58,116 Speaker 5: that comes out where jurors are going to be more 484 00:27:58,156 --> 00:27:59,556 Speaker 5: like to say, look, I don't care what you say. 485 00:27:59,596 --> 00:28:02,276 Speaker 5: I'm not changing my mind on this unless you give 486 00:28:02,316 --> 00:28:04,796 Speaker 5: me a really good reason to and if I haven't 487 00:28:04,796 --> 00:28:07,436 Speaker 5: heard it, I'm going to stand my ground. You know, 488 00:28:07,516 --> 00:28:09,996 Speaker 5: in those sort of situations where the state are really high, 489 00:28:10,436 --> 00:28:13,476 Speaker 5: you get jurors like that. It doesn't happen in every case, 490 00:28:13,516 --> 00:28:15,956 Speaker 5: but again, you can have that, and that doesn't mean 491 00:28:17,116 --> 00:28:18,956 Speaker 5: that it's a failure of the system at large. I 492 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:22,116 Speaker 5: think it's just that's one of the it's one of 493 00:28:22,156 --> 00:28:23,996 Speaker 5: the flaws in our system. It's just the way the 494 00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:27,636 Speaker 5: system is. It's an imperfect system. 495 00:28:27,916 --> 00:28:38,356 Speaker 1: More in just a minute. One of the things that 496 00:28:38,476 --> 00:28:41,436 Speaker 1: struck me, that surprised me, and I'm wondering how you 497 00:28:41,476 --> 00:28:45,076 Speaker 1: reacted to it, which was that here we are, you know, 498 00:28:45,156 --> 00:28:49,716 Speaker 1: fifteen years out, and when I talked to both Bob 499 00:28:50,756 --> 00:28:54,396 Speaker 1: and to Nick, who is the foreman, I was really 500 00:28:54,436 --> 00:29:05,436 Speaker 1: amazed at how I guess fresh and lasting the memories 501 00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:09,476 Speaker 1: and the experience of this trial were for them. Wondering 502 00:29:10,436 --> 00:29:13,156 Speaker 1: does that surprise you or do you think that that 503 00:29:13,556 --> 00:29:18,076 Speaker 1: is typical of these experiences have such a lasting effect 504 00:29:18,156 --> 00:29:22,276 Speaker 1: on the jurors who said to these trials. 505 00:29:22,516 --> 00:29:23,796 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a couple of things. 506 00:29:23,916 --> 00:29:26,716 Speaker 5: Jurors were essentially felt, at least it seemed to me, 507 00:29:27,076 --> 00:29:29,596 Speaker 5: felt very disappointed by the outcome. I mean, so that 508 00:29:29,996 --> 00:29:32,876 Speaker 5: that sort of lasts with them. You know, it wasn't 509 00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:35,436 Speaker 5: something that they wanted. They wanted to do it one way, 510 00:29:35,476 --> 00:29:38,556 Speaker 5: and they didn't get that outcome, and so you know, 511 00:29:38,716 --> 00:29:40,636 Speaker 5: I can see why it haunts them and why it 512 00:29:40,676 --> 00:29:43,276 Speaker 5: sits with them to this day. I don't fault them. 513 00:29:43,436 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 5: I get the sense that people feel like the jurors 514 00:29:46,436 --> 00:29:49,276 Speaker 5: screwed up, they made a mistake, or they did something stupid. 515 00:29:49,876 --> 00:29:52,956 Speaker 5: That's the easy way out. It's easy to say that jurors, 516 00:29:53,036 --> 00:29:54,956 Speaker 5: you know, didn't get it right, and they didn't understand 517 00:29:54,956 --> 00:29:56,876 Speaker 5: what they were doing. And how can you make any 518 00:29:56,956 --> 00:29:59,316 Speaker 5: sense of this? I mean, as I look at what 519 00:29:59,356 --> 00:30:01,956 Speaker 5: they did, it makes it actually made perfect sense to me. 520 00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:05,276 Speaker 5: But if you listen to their rationale, it does make sense, 521 00:30:05,436 --> 00:30:07,556 Speaker 5: there were a number of jurors in there who felt 522 00:30:07,636 --> 00:30:10,756 Speaker 5: strongly that this did happen and that this man was 523 00:30:10,836 --> 00:30:15,076 Speaker 5: murdered by this guy. But when pushed by or when 524 00:30:15,156 --> 00:30:17,916 Speaker 5: questioned by some jers who were sort of hung up 525 00:30:17,956 --> 00:30:20,356 Speaker 5: on this idea of not just a belief, but beyond 526 00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:23,276 Speaker 5: a reasonable doubt belief and the fact that there really 527 00:30:23,396 --> 00:30:26,596 Speaker 5: wasn't I mean, if you look at what the prosecution brought, 528 00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:30,796 Speaker 5: you know, there wasn't really a connection between you know, 529 00:30:31,356 --> 00:30:35,476 Speaker 5: what actually happened and this particular man. I mean, no one, 530 00:30:35,516 --> 00:30:38,276 Speaker 5: at least my understanding, no one could actually identify that 531 00:30:38,356 --> 00:30:41,796 Speaker 5: this was the man that was murdered by the defendant. 532 00:30:42,236 --> 00:30:44,796 Speaker 5: And I mean, and remember that this case happened at 533 00:30:44,836 --> 00:30:47,996 Speaker 5: a time when DNA evidence and physical evidence was something 534 00:30:48,036 --> 00:30:50,916 Speaker 5: that was becoming very very forefront. You saw it all 535 00:30:50,956 --> 00:30:52,596 Speaker 5: over the news. It was a big it was a 536 00:30:52,596 --> 00:30:55,836 Speaker 5: big thing that was becoming a real thing for cases 537 00:30:55,916 --> 00:30:59,836 Speaker 5: like this, and so you know, it's not too shocking 538 00:30:59,876 --> 00:31:01,636 Speaker 5: to me that there were some jurors who said, you know, 539 00:31:01,756 --> 00:31:05,516 Speaker 5: I'm not seeing that that physical evidence. That's where the 540 00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:08,356 Speaker 5: jurors fall. So that's where the compromise happens, because that's 541 00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:09,236 Speaker 5: the crack right. 542 00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:11,756 Speaker 1: Well, so, I mean, if I'm hearing you're right, you're 543 00:31:11,756 --> 00:31:16,196 Speaker 1: saying basically like the dury worked. Yeah. 544 00:31:16,316 --> 00:31:19,156 Speaker 5: I mean again, I think that, you know, for conspiracy, 545 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:21,956 Speaker 5: it makes sense that they concluded what they concluded. I mean, 546 00:31:22,076 --> 00:31:26,876 Speaker 5: the conspiracy charge doesn't require proof of an actual murder. 547 00:31:26,916 --> 00:31:30,596 Speaker 5: It just requires proof that you know an individual and 548 00:31:30,676 --> 00:31:33,316 Speaker 5: another individual or more than that, you know, decide this 549 00:31:33,356 --> 00:31:36,036 Speaker 5: is what they were going to do and actually started 550 00:31:36,036 --> 00:31:38,996 Speaker 5: to put that plan into motion. And I think that 551 00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:42,196 Speaker 5: everybody could comfortably go there. I think when you're talking 552 00:31:42,196 --> 00:31:46,396 Speaker 5: about the actual murder itself though, without something making that connection. 553 00:31:46,516 --> 00:31:49,116 Speaker 5: And again, I think if you're asking me, or asking 554 00:31:49,196 --> 00:31:52,316 Speaker 5: anyone any of the jurors, do you think that this 555 00:31:52,396 --> 00:31:54,836 Speaker 5: is what happened? I think the answer to that is clear. 556 00:31:54,876 --> 00:31:57,716 Speaker 5: Everybody would be unanimous on that. But if you're asking 557 00:31:58,036 --> 00:32:00,516 Speaker 5: beyond a reasonable doubt, you have to prove that this 558 00:32:00,756 --> 00:32:03,636 Speaker 5: is the guy that was murdered by that guy, I 559 00:32:03,676 --> 00:32:07,436 Speaker 5: think that's a harder question without that physical evidence there 560 00:32:07,436 --> 00:32:08,036 Speaker 5: to connect it. 561 00:32:08,476 --> 00:32:11,236 Speaker 1: How common is it to have a compromise like this. 562 00:32:11,356 --> 00:32:14,396 Speaker 1: I mean the papers at the time called it a 563 00:32:14,396 --> 00:32:18,116 Speaker 1: bizarre split verdict, But this idea of juries. Kind of 564 00:32:18,476 --> 00:32:21,436 Speaker 1: making a compromise in order to avoid a mistrial. Is 565 00:32:21,476 --> 00:32:22,876 Speaker 1: this a pretty common thing? 566 00:32:23,436 --> 00:32:27,796 Speaker 5: I mean, the mistrial, that's an uncommon thing. So I 567 00:32:27,836 --> 00:32:30,356 Speaker 5: think that jurors certainly will want to do what they 568 00:32:30,956 --> 00:32:34,116 Speaker 5: can do to get the right outcome. So if people 569 00:32:34,116 --> 00:32:37,036 Speaker 5: believe that he did something bad and did something wrong, 570 00:32:37,116 --> 00:32:39,596 Speaker 5: and they're convinced of that, you know, they're not going 571 00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:42,116 Speaker 5: to want him to just get off scot free. Right. 572 00:32:42,556 --> 00:32:46,156 Speaker 5: So this is a situation where the conspiracy, the evidence 573 00:32:46,196 --> 00:32:49,396 Speaker 5: is solid on that, the weapons charge solid on that. 574 00:32:50,156 --> 00:32:51,796 Speaker 5: You know, now at least we know that he can 575 00:32:51,876 --> 00:32:53,876 Speaker 5: go away based on these charges. 576 00:32:54,276 --> 00:32:57,236 Speaker 1: And the one hand, I hear you saying that you 577 00:32:57,276 --> 00:33:01,116 Speaker 1: felt that the jury did their job and it kind 578 00:33:01,156 --> 00:33:04,036 Speaker 1: of worked in this case. But earlier, at one point 579 00:33:04,076 --> 00:33:05,956 Speaker 1: I heard you say that the verdict in this case 580 00:33:06,076 --> 00:33:08,836 Speaker 1: was tragic, and I was just wondering what you meant 581 00:33:08,836 --> 00:33:09,036 Speaker 1: by that. 582 00:33:10,156 --> 00:33:15,556 Speaker 5: I think that if you didn't have a burden of 583 00:33:15,636 --> 00:33:18,756 Speaker 5: proof and you just simply wanted to sit people down 584 00:33:18,756 --> 00:33:21,076 Speaker 5: in a room and say, did this guy do it? 585 00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:25,676 Speaker 5: I think that everybody would agree that he did. That's 586 00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:27,516 Speaker 5: the tragic part of it is that I know that 587 00:33:27,556 --> 00:33:32,356 Speaker 5: the family was looking for justice. They believe with all 588 00:33:32,396 --> 00:33:34,196 Speaker 5: their hearts that this is the guy that did it, 589 00:33:34,236 --> 00:33:38,636 Speaker 5: and in all likelihood he was that guy. The problem 590 00:33:38,716 --> 00:33:40,796 Speaker 5: is is that there's that burden of proof, and there 591 00:33:40,796 --> 00:33:43,516 Speaker 5: are some jurors who will hold to that standard. And 592 00:33:43,596 --> 00:33:47,636 Speaker 5: so I don't think even if people believe strongly that 593 00:33:47,636 --> 00:33:50,156 Speaker 5: that's the case, if they don't have beyond a reasonable 594 00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:53,676 Speaker 5: doubt in this case, some of those jurors are going 595 00:33:53,756 --> 00:33:56,156 Speaker 5: to say, that's good enough for me to say that 596 00:33:56,196 --> 00:33:57,996 Speaker 5: I'm not going to convict someone and put them away 597 00:33:58,036 --> 00:34:01,036 Speaker 5: for the rest of their life. I mean, I feel 598 00:34:01,076 --> 00:34:05,476 Speaker 5: like the jury in one sense was honorable in the 599 00:34:05,516 --> 00:34:08,996 Speaker 5: sense that they were not willing to hang and put 600 00:34:09,116 --> 00:34:13,156 Speaker 5: potentially not allow any consequence to be met to the defendant, 601 00:34:13,316 --> 00:34:15,596 Speaker 5: because you know that could have been what they did. 602 00:34:15,796 --> 00:34:18,956 Speaker 5: They could have hung on murder one. But you know 603 00:34:19,316 --> 00:34:21,156 Speaker 5: that if that was not going to get them to 604 00:34:21,396 --> 00:34:25,156 Speaker 5: a conviction on a particular on anything, then you know, 605 00:34:25,596 --> 00:34:28,036 Speaker 5: in a sense, that's better than not getting anything at all. 606 00:34:28,076 --> 00:34:30,316 Speaker 5: I mean, to me, the bigger travesty would have been 607 00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:33,796 Speaker 5: that this guy walks away scott free. That would have 608 00:34:33,796 --> 00:34:34,996 Speaker 5: been a huge travesty. 609 00:34:37,076 --> 00:34:41,116 Speaker 1: Well, well, thank you so much for chatting with me, 610 00:34:42,156 --> 00:34:44,116 Speaker 1: and I'll be calling you when I get called for 611 00:34:44,196 --> 00:34:44,876 Speaker 1: my next jury. 612 00:34:44,996 --> 00:34:48,076 Speaker 5: Absolutely, I will be happy to talk. 613 00:34:52,716 --> 00:34:56,676 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Amy Gains McQuaid. Our editor 614 00:34:56,716 --> 00:35:01,276 Speaker 1: is Karen Chakerjee. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Our 615 00:35:01,356 --> 00:35:05,036 Speaker 1: show art was designed by Sean Carney. Original scoring and 616 00:35:05,116 --> 00:35:08,796 Speaker 1: our theme was composed by Luis Gara. This episode was 617 00:35:08,836 --> 00:35:12,636 Speaker 1: mass sired by Sarah Bruguier. Special thanks to Sarah Nix 618 00:35:12,756 --> 00:35:15,356 Speaker 1: and Greta Cone. I'm Jake Calpert.