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Speaker 1: It's a hotter than usual summer day. I'm pulled over
Speaker 1: on this side of the road, confirming an address in
Speaker 1: Google Maps as I try to figure out how to
Speaker 1: get to my destination. I see I've come to the
Speaker 1: south of Belgium, to a small village where I'm meeting Morgan.
Speaker 1: But we're off to a slow start, just.
Speaker 3: Arriving here now.
Speaker 1: In the village where Dania lives, and it happens to
Speaker 1: be a big village and party going into ville. The
Speaker 1: entire village is cordoned off for a summer festival. Hundreds
Speaker 1: of people are gathered for a re enactment of an
Speaker 1: eighteenth century military parade. The soldier's uniforms and cobbled streets
Speaker 1: are a site right out of Napoleon's time. Military parade
Speaker 1: with something old military Napoleon style. I have to admit
Speaker 1: it all feels a bit surreal. I meet Morgan in
Speaker 1: the center of the village and we weave our way
Speaker 1: through the re enactment, headed towards an address just minutes away.
Speaker 1: For me, it's the culmination of months of work from Morgan.
Speaker 1: It's years of investigation that land us at this doorstep.
Speaker 1: The stakes are high because we're about to come face
Speaker 1: to face with a man who may well be the
Speaker 1: Butcher of Moss.
Speaker 4: I can't belie mysteriously.
Speaker 5: As they disappearance of a woman from mont.
Speaker 6: A condition of the victims was sickening.
Speaker 4: And the question remains, where is the killer?
Speaker 1: From Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts, I'm your host, Matt
Speaker 1: Graves and this is Lea Monstre Season two, The Butcher
Speaker 1: of Moss. Our investigations into a man named George, who
Speaker 1: you'll recall Morgan tracked down led us to believe that
Speaker 1: he was the man seemingly stalking Jacqueline, identifying George led
Speaker 1: us to another man, who are calling Danielle, And what
Speaker 1: we've learned about Danielle does not disappoint. It started with
Speaker 1: a conversation at Le Metropol between George and Danielle that
Speaker 1: was also overheard by Madame Ganche. In this conversation, Danielle
Speaker 1: was said to have shown his hands to George and
Speaker 1: stated something the effect of I have blood on my
Speaker 1: hands or these hands have killed more than once. As mentioned,
Speaker 1: George reported this conversation to the police and Danielle was
Speaker 1: summoned to the Gendarmerie for an interview. Instead of being
Speaker 1: surprised by the judicial police who were actually investigating the case,
Speaker 1: we believe at the time between the initial summons and
Speaker 1: the interview was two to three days.
Speaker 7: The judicial police learned that the Gendarmerie issued a summon
Speaker 7: to daniel and they arranged it so they could take
Speaker 7: over the interview. So they actually went to the Gendarmerie
Speaker 7: and picked him up when he arrived there and took
Speaker 7: him to their station where he was interrogated.
Speaker 4: Alison que what struck the.
Speaker 7: Investigators first of all was his attitude. He was being
Speaker 7: questioned about a particularly atrocious series of crimes, and he
Speaker 7: didn't seem to take any offense to it. They were
Speaker 7: expecting that he would p the test is in a
Speaker 7: sense that he would be outraged at the idea that
Speaker 7: he could be a suspect, but it wasn't that at all.
Speaker 7: He was particularly calm and in full control of his emotions.
Speaker 1: Upon learning that he was being questioned about the trash
Speaker 1: bags full of body parts, he said, let the chess
Speaker 1: game begin. They felt like he was taunting them, which
Speaker 1: certainly roused their suspicions. They obtained a warrant to search
Speaker 1: his residence, and the more they investigated, the more suspicious
Speaker 1: they became. Okay, we are just left the Rue de
Speaker 1: vande Velde and were approaching a house that we think
Speaker 1: one of the suspects was living in at the time.
Speaker 1: I'm standing in front of the house that Danielle lived
Speaker 1: in at the time of the murders. We're on the
Speaker 1: street where the bodies were dropped off on the twenty
Speaker 1: second of March. If you go about five hundred meters
Speaker 1: away from that place and you land right in front
Speaker 1: of this house. The particular thing about this house is
Speaker 1: that there is a garage opening on the side of
Speaker 1: the house, because this is you know, we're in the
Speaker 1: center of Europe here, so all of the houses are
Speaker 1: joined because there's no backyards or anything like that. So
Speaker 1: we're on a sidewalk and there's like a row of
Speaker 1: houses that are all joined next to each other, and
Speaker 1: you have a one of the houses that has sort
Speaker 1: of a side garage where you could drive in and
Speaker 1: then around the back where someone could discreetly drop off bodies.
Speaker 1: Must let's be clear. So the thought is that what
Speaker 1: he could have very easily done would be to drive
Speaker 1: a car down this road, turn into this garage here,
Speaker 1: and then just turn around the corner and be completely
Speaker 1: hidden from anyone or anything. And this is pretty much
Speaker 1: the only house in this street that you could do
Speaker 1: that with. And so if it does turn out to
Speaker 1: be where he was living at the time, that's quite
Speaker 1: interesting for you. When police searched his house, it was
Speaker 1: apparently spotless. They even went to the lengths of stripping
Speaker 1: out his plumbing, presumably looking for blood or other evidence
Speaker 1: of disposal. What they found instead was that his pipes
Speaker 1: had apparently been cleaned with acid. They even searched his
Speaker 1: utility records which showed that he'd consumed unusually high amounts
Speaker 1: of water the previous year. His computer was also searched,
Speaker 1: but the hard drive had recently been wiped clean it.
Speaker 1: Forensic specialists were able to recuperate the deleted files, which
Speaker 1: included a digital sex game, pornographic videos, and, most worryingly,
Speaker 1: nude photos that Daniel had taken of a woman. The
Speaker 1: pictures appeared to investigators to be more like an anatomic
Speaker 1: study than pornography, including close ups of intimate body parts.
Speaker 1: There were no photographs of the victims found. They also
Speaker 1: obtained a warrant to search his workplace and cross references
Speaker 1: schedule with the crimes. Employee records indicated that he was
Speaker 1: never at work when the disappearances occurred. Apparently, he kept
Speaker 1: his call throughout the interviews, with the exception of one moment.
Speaker 1: Frederic Law explainski.
Speaker 7: Particular moment he was completely in control of his emotions
Speaker 7: during the interrogation, which surprised the investigators. Lucal moment and
Speaker 7: the only moment where he lost his nerve was when
Speaker 7: the confronted him with the testimony of two servels from
Speaker 7: bars near the train station who said they saw him
Speaker 7: together with one of the victims, in this instance, Martin
Speaker 7: Bud and he lost his cal He flew off the
Speaker 7: handel and insulted them. It was the only moment that
Speaker 7: he completely changed his attitude.
Speaker 1: Danielle categorically denied having known any of the victims, and
Speaker 1: police were never able to validate that he did. However,
Speaker 1: we've recently collected compelling new testimony from Madame Ganche that
Speaker 1: she never shared with police. She said she never shared
Speaker 1: it because she was so annoyed by being accused herself
Speaker 1: that she stopped speaking with the police altogether.
Speaker 6: You know what, I'm going to tell you something. I
Speaker 6: had daniel here one evening Champ He came to get
Speaker 6: a room with Natalie.
Speaker 1: She explains that Danielle rented a room with a victim,
Speaker 1: Natalie Godar, at her hotel Metropolis.
Speaker 6: He came in here and walked straight up to me
Speaker 6: and asked for a room. He was wearing a trench
Speaker 6: coat like people wore at that time, a greenish trench coat,
Speaker 6: and he asked for a room for him and his
Speaker 6: guest Jack, and I thought, what's he doing with her?
Speaker 6: It was right around that time, nineteen ninety six, because
Speaker 6: she was dead a few weeks later, I received them here.
Speaker 6: At least once. I didn't see him fitting with her.
Speaker 6: The couple didn't go together. Natalie was tall, but well,
Speaker 6: she wasn't all that much. She never wore makeup, and
Speaker 6: she drank her beers and that was enough for her.
Speaker 6: And he was a tall and handsome man.
Speaker 1: I asked her if she was sure it was Danielle.
Speaker 6: Yes, Yes, it was daniel Yes, a tall and elegant man.
Speaker 6: It was him.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety six, Danielle was thirty five years old.
Speaker 1: He worked as a machine technician at an industrial company
Speaker 1: where he mostly did shift hours and would frequently get
Speaker 1: off at around ten pm and then spend the entire
Speaker 1: night out drinking in the train station neighborhood. Multiple witnesses
Speaker 1: from the bar and hotel scene at the time had
Speaker 1: already placed Danielle with one victim, Martin Bone, and now
Speaker 1: Madame Ganche just placed Danielle with a second victim, Natalie
Speaker 1: go Dard new information that authorities never received. As we
Speaker 1: combed through the original investigation to learn as much about
Speaker 1: the evidence as possible, we discovered that police received a
Speaker 1: tip from a homeless man named Renee who claimed to
Speaker 1: have seen a suspicious vehicle at one of the dumb sites.
Speaker 1: Again Frederic Law so as the Alipok.
Speaker 7: This homeless man was interviewed at the time by the
Speaker 7: unit investigating the case and he said that he witnessed
Speaker 7: suspicious activity near the path of Wherri where some of
Speaker 7: the torsos were found.
Speaker 4: Didischman like you, jud Dave Guldnuvau Team Breck.
Speaker 7: He said he saw a station wagon making suspicious trips
Speaker 7: back and forth. As I'm not sure if he gave
Speaker 7: the exact model, but he gave a clear description of
Speaker 7: the vehicle as being a dark colored station wagon.
Speaker 1: You'll recall that the investigative journalist, Frederic Law, is originally
Speaker 1: from moss and since we've been reinvestigating the case, he's
Speaker 1: been reaching out to friends and contacts to look for
Speaker 1: potential witnesses who never reported information to police. We've recently
Speaker 1: obtained no testimony about suspicious sightings of a station wagon.
Speaker 8: Companion, my partner at the time, went to buy cigarettes.
Speaker 8: It was the month of March and it was dark
Speaker 8: outside and he went to a convenience store and on
Speaker 8: his way back from getting cigarettes, he was on the
Speaker 8: riv Underveld and he had to swerve because a car,
Speaker 8: a station wagon was parked on the side halfway in
Speaker 8: the road and a person was throwing trash backs down
Speaker 8: towards the ditch. He passed the car and had time
Speaker 8: to see the silhouette of a person, a man alone
Speaker 8: in a station wagon.
Speaker 4: He thought it was dark in color.
Speaker 8: And he went home and then went out again later
Speaker 8: driving towards Mons and he was stopped by police. It
Speaker 8: was a basic traffic stop, and he recalls saying to
Speaker 8: the police that instead of bothering him, they should go
Speaker 8: get the guy who was dumping trash backs in the ditch,
Speaker 8: and police didn't follow up because they were doing some
Speaker 8: other control for speeding or an alcohol test, I'm not sure.
Speaker 8: And afterwards, when the sacks were discovered, he made the connection.
Speaker 8: He never went to report it because he had a
Speaker 8: tense relationship with the police.
Speaker 9: La Veules.
Speaker 8: He told me that in his mind, in any case,
Speaker 8: he believes he saw the trash backs being deposited by
Speaker 8: the butcher.
Speaker 1: Of Moss because it was during the month of March
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, shortly before the first discoveries at the
Speaker 1: exact same spot. The man was convinced he witnessed the
Speaker 1: butcher of Mons disposing of body parts in those trash bags.
Speaker 1: He's also convinced that the butcher of Mons drove a
Speaker 1: dark colored station wagon, corroborating the testimony of Renee, a
Speaker 1: witness from the original investigation. Before learning about the significance
Speaker 1: of the dark colored station wagon, Morgan made some discoveries
Speaker 1: that didn't seem significant at the time. As he collected
Speaker 1: testimony for his book, he spoke to a man who
Speaker 1: lived near the dumping grounds.
Speaker 4: Luteman record of the witness.
Speaker 10: I spoke to explain that when you crossed the bridge
Speaker 10: on Rue vander Velda, near where the discoveries were made,
Speaker 10: there's a small street on the.
Speaker 9: Right annum Nito opel brech Dontru.
Speaker 10: Shortly before the trash bags were found, he noticed a
Speaker 10: man meticulously cleaning out an Opal station wagon in this
Speaker 10: street where the witness lived himself, and it jumped out
Speaker 10: at him because the man didn't live in his street.
Speaker 1: The witness said he noticed the man cleaning the Opal
Speaker 1: station wagon because it was in front of a vacant
Speaker 1: house that wasn't his. Unfortunately, he couldn't remember what the
Speaker 1: man looked like at the time. Of the murders. Not
Speaker 1: only did Danielle live near this witness and in close
Speaker 1: proximity to the dumping grounds, but we also recently learned
Speaker 1: from a source close to the investigation that he drove
Speaker 1: a dark colored Opal station wagon. In twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: Morgan published his book on the Butcher of MOUs case
Speaker 1: titled Ile moens sanc monquete sur le depasur de Moss
Speaker 1: or in English, its Five to the Hour Investigation into
Speaker 1: the Butcher of Moss. The title of its five to
Speaker 1: the hour refers to the fact that at the time
Speaker 1: of publication, the investigation had five years to go before
Speaker 1: reaching its statute of limitation and being definitively closed, which
Speaker 1: is set to happen in twenty twenty seven. He spent
Speaker 1: years building relationships, interviewing witnesses, and developing sources, some confidentially.
Speaker 1: Before he knew of Danielle's existence, several leads emerged that
Speaker 1: put Morgan on Danielle's trail. Many of those leads came
Speaker 1: from le Metropoles, where Morgan spent countless hours speaking with
Speaker 1: Monique and anyone else connected to the station area during
Speaker 1: the time of the murders. At first his efforts to
Speaker 1: engage were met with wariness. Only after locals grew accustomed
Speaker 1: to seeing him regularly at the bar did some begin
Speaker 1: to open up. One woman he'd seen at Le Metropole
Speaker 1: several times kept very much to herself and clearly didn't
Speaker 1: want to speak with him, But after some encouragement from
Speaker 1: Madame Ganche, she finally relented. Even after all these years,
Speaker 1: she still apprehensive because the killer is still out there.
Speaker 1: After gaining her trust, she shared disturbing circumstances involving a
Speaker 1: woman named Guile, a potential survivor of the Butcher of Moss.
Speaker 1: These are her words, not her voice.
Speaker 5: I know that some time before she had been approached
Speaker 5: by a man with whom she had spent a few days.
Speaker 5: I didn't pay much attention at the time, but not
Speaker 5: long after I was surprised not to see her anymore.
Speaker 5: That began to worry me, so I went to the
Speaker 5: police to report her disappearance. The man with whom she
Speaker 5: stayed was Danielle. After reporting Guile missing, he came to
Speaker 5: find me at the bar where I was working at
Speaker 5: the time. He stormed into the place. He was tense,
Speaker 5: upset and sweating all over in an aggressive tone. He
Speaker 5: told me I shouldn't have reported her missing because it
Speaker 5: had caused him serious problems. I felt threatened. I'd never
Speaker 5: seen him like that before. I assumed his violent reaction
Speaker 5: was linked to the report I had made to the police.
Speaker 1: Since learning about Danielle, Morgan did door to door inquiries
Speaker 1: in the street where he lived at the time. It's
Speaker 1: been almost thirty years, so it was a bit of
Speaker 1: a hail Mary. But on one of his last door
Speaker 1: knocks he spoke with a couple who recalled a worrying
Speaker 1: encounter with a young woman in distress. Unfortunately, the couple
Speaker 1: didn't want to be recorded.
Speaker 10: Morgan explains, it's a couple that lived in the Rue
Speaker 10: van der Velda at the time of the murders, and
Speaker 10: even before they couldn't recall the exact timing. Just in
Speaker 10: front of their house there's a small park and one morning,
Speaker 10: very early, there was a woman there, half naked and exposed,
Speaker 10: who appeared inebriated and she was frantically repeating that someone
Speaker 10: was trying to hurt her. They took her into their
Speaker 10: house and she was in shock, so they called the police,
Speaker 10: who came and picked her up. It was on the
Speaker 10: Act to do and this couple lived directly next door
Speaker 10: to daniel but they couldn't say if she had been
Speaker 10: at his house.
Speaker 1: Although I don't have definitive proof, it's my professional opinion
Speaker 1: that this woman was Guiles, and I believe that the
Speaker 1: quote someone trying to quote hurt her was Danielle. After
Speaker 1: Giles's friend whose words we just heard, reported her missing,
Speaker 1: she was actually located by police and Brussels. They tried
Speaker 1: to question her about the incident, but she was unable
Speaker 1: or unwilling to discuss it. Xavier looked into giles past
Speaker 1: to learn more about her lifestyle then and her whereabouts now.
Speaker 9: In nineteen ninety six, she would have been twenty seven
Speaker 9: years old. It appears that she didn't have a fixed
Speaker 9: residence and was basically living in the streets. I was
Speaker 9: able to find trace of her existence via family members
Speaker 9: on Facebook.
Speaker 4: For two.
Speaker 9: When I finally found a picture of her from the time,
Speaker 9: she looked like a face you would have seen on
Speaker 9: the model board for this case, very similar to some
Speaker 9: of the other victims, a profile much like Natalie Goda,
Speaker 9: actually leaving rough spending time in the streets and bars
Speaker 9: around the station.
Speaker 1: Gile had a long history of psychological issues which had
Speaker 1: taken a turn for the worse. After the incident, we
Speaker 1: of course wanted very much to speak with Gile, but
Speaker 1: Xavier was able to establish that she passed away in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Back when writing his book, Morgan had
Speaker 1: heard about a woman who was viciously attacked by a
Speaker 1: man who actually worked as a butcher in Moss. It
Speaker 1: would be cruel irony if the Butcher of Moss turned
Speaker 1: out to be an actual butcher. In any case, the
Speaker 1: story piqued Morgan's interest, and he set out to find
Speaker 1: the woman who had been assaulted. It turned out that
Speaker 1: she was the victim of a brutal attack where a
Speaker 1: man attempted to cut her throat in the street with
Speaker 1: a knife. The perpetrator was convicted of the crime, but
Speaker 1: it was established that he couldn't be our Butcher of
Speaker 1: Moss given his age and alibis. However, the same woman,
Speaker 1: who was a sex worker at the time, told Morgan
Speaker 1: about another negative experience with a different man, a man
Speaker 1: named Danielle Queen.
Speaker 10: I spoke with another woman who lived in the train
Speaker 10: station area at the time. She also had a similar
Speaker 10: profile as some of the victims, and she's still very fragile.
Speaker 10: Now I slowly gained her confidence, and she told me
Speaker 10: about an experience she had with Danielle. After a day
Speaker 10: of drinking in the bars, she got into a car
Speaker 10: with him and it didn't go well. She can't remember
Speaker 10: the exact circumstances or didn't want to say, but whatever
Speaker 10: it was appeared to traumatize her and she did whatever
Speaker 10: she could to get out of the car. She fought back,
Speaker 10: and he stopped the car and she managed to jump out.
Speaker 10: She couldn't discribe exactly what happened, but whatever it was
Speaker 10: scared her and she wanted to escape, and it still
Speaker 10: stuck in her memory. At first, I wasn't sure that
Speaker 10: it was really our Danielle, but when she confirmed his nickname,
Speaker 10: I knew it was him.
Speaker 1: Through a deep dive into Danielle's past, we learned that
Speaker 1: at the beginning of nineteen ninety seven, he moved in
Speaker 1: with a woman who would later become his wife. After
Speaker 1: they married, the butcher of Man's murders stopped. However, between
Speaker 1: the time Danielle moved into his new girlfriend's house and
Speaker 1: their wedding, there was one last murder, that of Begugnia Valencia.
Speaker 1: Bogonia's case is somewhat of an outlier, as she didn't
Speaker 1: disappear from the center of mass like the other victims,
Speaker 1: but rather from the municipality of Framerie on the outskirts
Speaker 1: of the city. Fremrie happens to be where Danielle's new
Speaker 1: residence was. In fact, in order to drive to work,
Speaker 1: he had to take the road where Bogognia was last seen.
Speaker 1: The amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to Danielle's possible involvement
Speaker 1: with these murders is overwhelming, yet he was never arrested
Speaker 1: or charged. However, our investigation has uncovered new evidence that
Speaker 1: police didn't know at the time. The testimony from Madame
Speaker 1: Ganche stating that Danielle rented a room with Nettali Go
Speaker 1: Daard at Le Metropol shortly before her murder, the sightings
Speaker 1: of vehicles at crime scenes matching what he drove at
Speaker 1: the time, New testimonies from women who had negative and
Speaker 1: frightening experiences with Danielle, and his next door neighbor's account
Speaker 1: of finding a half naked and terrified woman in front
Speaker 1: of his house, claiming that someone was trying to hurt her.
Speaker 1: Since our recent discovery of these elements, we've been working
Speaker 1: towards trying to confront Danielle. At the very beginning, we
Speaker 1: didn't even know his name, but through the dogged work
Speaker 1: of Morgan, Frederic and Xavier, we found him. It was
Speaker 1: difficult because he has zero online footprint. We found an
Speaker 1: address and Morgan spent a day doing reconnaissance around the area.
Speaker 1: We didn't even have a picture of him, but Morgan
Speaker 1: observed a man living at the address who fit the
Speaker 1: age and physical description. Separately, Frederic was able to track
Speaker 1: down Danielle's estranged wife. She maintained that he had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with the murders and asked for us to
Speaker 1: leave them alone. After exhausting all of those angles, Morgan
Speaker 1: mailed Danielle a letter another Hail Mary. But to our
Speaker 1: great surprise, it worked and he responded to the email
Speaker 1: Morgan provided. This is what brought Morgan and I to
Speaker 1: the south of Belgium, where the episode began, navigating through
Speaker 1: the cobbled streets of a village flanked by an unanticipated
Speaker 1: summer festival, making our way on foot to Danielle's residence.
Speaker 1: Danielle knows we're making a podcast, but he doesn't want
Speaker 1: to be recorded. However, we do have an accurate transcript
Speaker 1: of the interview. I want to build confidence with him,
Speaker 1: so I explain that I'm recording our arrival. Only then
Speaker 1: I show him that I'm turning off the recorder, which
Speaker 1: I do. His house is about a fifteen minute walk
Speaker 1: away from the center of the village, nestled on a
Speaker 1: hillside and surrounded by lush greenery. He welcomes us politely
Speaker 1: and we sit down around his dining room table. He's
Speaker 1: rather tall in his mid sixties, and you can tell
Speaker 1: he was probably quite strong in his younger years. However,
Speaker 1: he's apparently had hard problems, and his physique bears the
Speaker 1: unmistakable toll of decades of drinking. Indeed, it was ten
Speaker 1: am and he had already worked his way through a
Speaker 1: good portion of a bottle of wine sitting on the
Speaker 1: table in front of him. He's courteous, but gives off
Speaker 1: an aura that keeps me slightly on guard. He speaks
Speaker 1: clearly and with confidence, definitely not a fool. I'm sitting
Speaker 1: directly across from him, and I can't help but stare
Speaker 1: at his hands, wondering if those are the hands that
Speaker 1: murder and dismembered at least five women. Morgan gigs off
Speaker 1: by asking him why he agreed to meet with us.
Speaker 1: With transcripts from the interview, we've been able to recreate
Speaker 1: Danielle's words.
Speaker 3: If I didn't meet you, you see, I'd be afraid
Speaker 3: that you might invent things. It's to fill in the
Speaker 3: gaps so you don't fill them in yourself.
Speaker 1: After some more small talk about our project, we ask
Speaker 1: him to explain how he ended up in Moss.
Speaker 3: I was deeply in love with a woman, but she
Speaker 3: dumbed me. I'd say that between the ages of thirty
Speaker 3: one and thirty five there was a gap. I didn't
Speaker 3: have any real relationships with women, apart from a few encounters,
Speaker 3: but not with the kind of women you'd want to
Speaker 3: build a life with. And even that wasn't so common.
Speaker 3: I spent my nights at the le Metropol, the Carridas,
Speaker 3: and in an even more unspeakable place, the Unsolite.
Speaker 1: The Carridas and the Ansolite were bars and Moss.
Speaker 3: At the time, well, I didn't live an exemplary life.
Speaker 3: I drank beyond all imagination. A typical day in Mons
Speaker 3: for me was I was working shifts at the factory.
Speaker 3: I'd finish at ten PM after sharing a coffee with
Speaker 3: a buddy taking over. At ten thirty, I'd get in
Speaker 3: my car, and by eleven p m. I was in
Speaker 3: Mons And then without fail, I'd end up at Le Metropol.
Speaker 3: I'd fuel myself with Left Blonde, not two or three.
Speaker 3: I really drank hard.
Speaker 1: Left Blonde is a typical trap of style Belgian beer,
Speaker 1: with about twice the alcohol content of a normal American beer.
Speaker 1: He later explained to me that he'd drink ten or
Speaker 1: more of these on a night out around the train station.
Speaker 3: Afterwards, sometimes I'd go back to the Ansolite. You needed
Speaker 3: a fat wallet for that place. You can't even call
Speaker 3: the Ansolita bar. It was an outright to bordello.
Speaker 1: Really, as far as I can tell, the Absolete was
Speaker 1: basically a sex club.
Speaker 3: I've always had a tendency to hang around with disreputable people. Why,
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's just how I'm wired. I have
Speaker 3: to say it got worse after I turned thirty. Between
Speaker 3: twenty and thirty, I still had a certain restraint. But
Speaker 3: once I was on my own in my apartment in
Speaker 3: quem near the Mont train station. I took full advantage
Speaker 3: of it. That's where I met Monique Gone and her
Speaker 3: friend George at Le Metropol. George was a bit of
Speaker 3: a clown, a very likable guy, but with the flaw
Speaker 3: of pretending to be some kind of hypnotist.
Speaker 1: You'll recall that George is the man who claimed to
Speaker 1: have psychic powers and spent his time doing readings with
Speaker 1: women at the Metropol.
Speaker 3: It's true that once, when I was very drunk, I
Speaker 3: said to George, you see, George, these hands have blood
Speaker 3: on them. I was completely wasted. I don't know why
Speaker 3: I said that, but I did. Anyway, Yes that sentence. Yes,
Speaker 3: what an idiot I was. Yes, I said it. I
Speaker 3: was completely wasted. And since I'm a pretty good actor,
Speaker 3: when I said it, I must have been very convincing.
Speaker 3: So there you go, one more stupid thing to add
Speaker 3: to the list.
Speaker 1: As far as we know, this is the first time
Speaker 1: Danielle admits to making this statement. We were told that
Speaker 1: he never admitted it to police, but in our interview
Speaker 1: he clearly admits to it. Next, we go through the
Speaker 1: list of victims with him.
Speaker 3: Begonia Valencia no memory at all, not even of seeing
Speaker 3: her I have no recollection. Maybe she was sitting at
Speaker 3: a table a few meters away having a drink, but
Speaker 3: I don't have any memory of it. Jacqueline Leclaire. Judging
Speaker 3: from the photos she was fairly tall, but I don't
Speaker 3: have any memory of her. Natalie Godard Well, I learned
Speaker 3: from the press that she was seeing Leopold Bogart. I
Speaker 3: don't recall her.
Speaker 1: I decided not to confront Danielle just yet about Madame
Speaker 1: Ganci's recent claim to have rented a room to him
Speaker 1: at L Metropole with Natalie Goddard. He's talking and at
Speaker 1: this stage we're still trying to build a rapport with him.
Speaker 3: Martin Boone Well, at the end of one of my
Speaker 3: drunken nights at Le Metropol, around six or seven in
Speaker 3: the morning, I remember ordering a bottle of gin with
Speaker 3: a prostitute, and I believe it was Martin Boone.
Speaker 1: This is the first time he openly admits to having
Speaker 1: spent time with Martin Boone. A witness had reported seeing
Speaker 1: him with Martin at a different bar, but this time
Speaker 1: he's saying he was with her at L Metropole, so
Speaker 1: this could constitute two different sightings.
Speaker 3: Carmelina Russo. I may have interacted with her at the unsolite.
Speaker 3: You know what happened at the unsolite. We did whatever
Speaker 3: we wanted, even in the booths, and there was a
Speaker 3: woman who looked like Carmelina Russo, who I think liked me.
Speaker 3: I say looked like oh, because I wouldn't swear it
Speaker 3: was actually Carmelina. It's possible, but only.
Speaker 1: Once again another admission. He had never admitted to interacting
Speaker 1: with Carmeline Roussu. In fact, until today, he had always
Speaker 1: denied knowing any of the victims. You recall that the
Speaker 1: only time he lost his call when being questioned by
Speaker 1: police was when he was confronted by testimony from two
Speaker 1: female servers from bars downtown. One of these women, whose
Speaker 1: name we've changed to Julie in a transcription, apparently still
Speaker 1: gets under his skin.
Speaker 3: Between Julie and me, things didn't go too well. She said,
Speaker 3: I was a man who despised women and thought that
Speaker 3: all women were whores. I love women, and I don't
Speaker 3: consider all of them to be whores, but some are,
Speaker 3: and that's the case with Julie.
Speaker 1: Morgan asks if he booked a room with Natalie Goddard
Speaker 1: at Le Metropol.
Speaker 3: No or else, I must have had one hell of
Speaker 3: a blackout. No, you know, for a simple reason, a
Speaker 3: financial one. At the time, I wasn't making that much money.
Speaker 3: I had to live my rent, my little car, food,
Speaker 3: covering my nights out with beer, occasionally allowing myself the brothel.
Speaker 3: I couldn't see myself paying for an extra room, quite
Speaker 3: simply for financial reasons. And no, I don't remember ever
Speaker 3: going up to a room at Le Metropol.
Speaker 1: We refer to a recent newspaper article about the case
Speaker 1: that he said it'd read before our interview. The article
Speaker 1: speculated that the butcher of Moss must have known as victims,
Speaker 1: and that his motivation for the murders was likely sexual.
Speaker 3: I was sexually motivated, but not to the point of
Speaker 3: cutting people up and taking their lives. That's something you
Speaker 3: have to keep in mind. The newspaper articles mentioned the
Speaker 3: use of a hexele. I've never cut up a body
Speaker 3: in my life, but it's true that it's the ideal
Speaker 3: tool for dismembering once the body is rigid. I would
Speaker 3: say it must be a fairly effective tool for that,
Speaker 3: But me, I've only ever used one to cut copper
Speaker 3: pipes and iron bars.
Speaker 1: He's obviously baiting us at this point, musing about how
Speaker 1: a hack saw would be the ideal instrument to dismember
Speaker 1: a body, but only once rigor sets in. It sort
Speaker 1: of feels like he can't help himself, which reminds me
Speaker 1: of how police felt about him in their initial interviews,
Speaker 1: confidently playing with fire and taunting his interviewers. He's mostly
Speaker 1: affable during the interview, but from time to time there's
Speaker 1: a darkness in his gaze when we cover subjects that
Speaker 1: annoy him. That being said, he's incredibly transparent. He openly
Speaker 1: admits to being an alcoholic, frequenting dodgy establishments, and engaging
Speaker 1: with sex workers, and even admits things to us that
Speaker 1: he never confessed to the police. He says that he
Speaker 1: understands why he was a suspect, but category denies any
Speaker 1: involvement with the murders. When we turned the subject to Guielle,
Speaker 1: the woman who had a negative experience with Danielle but
Speaker 1: then refused to talk about it, his response floors us.
Speaker 3: Yes, I met Guyelle at the Apao bar and she
Speaker 3: told me she was going to be evicted from her place,
Speaker 3: and I told her well, then come stay at my place.
Speaker 3: So she lived with me for a few weeks. She
Speaker 3: wasn't stable, that girl. She was schizophrenic. I think I'm
Speaker 3: not a doctor, but I think that's what she was.
Speaker 3: It's true that I asked her to pose for me
Speaker 3: for nude photos. But those photos you see a thousand
Speaker 3: times worse on the internet today than what I took. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: I can't show them to you because they weren't returned
Speaker 3: to me. They were black and white photos, and yes,
Speaker 3: her vagina was visible, you know. Gustav Corbet Lore Jean Dumont. Well,
Speaker 3: it was more or less that kind of photo. So
Speaker 3: it wasn't really erotic, and it wasn't pornographic either. She
Speaker 3: wasn't doing anything sexual, and I thought it was beautiful
Speaker 3: to photograph her female body.
Speaker 1: The Artistine mentions. Gustave Courbet was a French painter, most
Speaker 1: famous for his work called Lorigeann Dumont. It's a close
Speaker 1: up view of the vagina and abdomen of a naked
Speaker 1: woman lying on a bed with her legs spread. In
Speaker 1: any case, we now know that the nude photographs found
Speaker 1: on his computer were of Gaya.
Speaker 3: I have to say I am rather free spirited. There
Speaker 3: was no sadomasochistic element, none of that. There weren't any
Speaker 3: extreme close ups either. They weren't medical pictures. I actually
Speaker 3: thought that my name was shared with the police by
Speaker 3: my landlord at the time because he saw Guyell jumping
Speaker 3: over my fence. I never should have done it, but
Speaker 3: I locked her into my place so that when I
Speaker 3: went to work she wouldn't go drinking at the barney.
Speaker 3: It was unlawful confinement, but at thirty I was stupid.
Speaker 3: I didn't realize it. And if Guyell didn't end up
Speaker 3: in a garbage bag, it's because Daniel invited her to
Speaker 3: his place. Otherwise she would she would have met the
Speaker 3: same fate. So I have nothing to reproach myself for
Speaker 3: in having taken in Guyell.
Speaker 1: The information he just shared about Guyele is a significant revelation.
Speaker 1: He just admitted to kidnapping a young woman with the
Speaker 1: same exact profile as the other victims, and also taking
Speaker 1: explicit pictures of her naked body. While he hasn't admitted
Speaker 1: to anything illegal with the five victims, this does perhaps
Speaker 1: establish a potential pattern. We just recently learned that Belgian
Speaker 1: authorities reached out to the FBI's behavioral Science unit early
Speaker 1: on in the Butcher of Man's investigation to help them
Speaker 1: establish a profile. This was unrelated to the interactions they
Speaker 1: had with the FBI concerning Smaiyo Jurleik from the Bronx
Speaker 1: Butcher case, which took place much later.
Speaker 11: Frederick explains, perhaps more de Blanquet, the investigators early in
Speaker 11: the case contacted the FBI's behavioral Science unit in Quantico,
Speaker 11: and they assisted the Belgian in creating a profile of
Speaker 11: the possible killer.
Speaker 4: Nudique luteur de fe what rondomous.
Speaker 7: The profile stated that the popetrator was likely a man
Speaker 7: living alone who was a regular in the train station area,
Speaker 7: but who wasn't part of the social network of the neighborhood.
Speaker 7: To say it crudely, he wasn't a drifter or someone
Speaker 7: who was down and out, even if that neighborhood isn't
Speaker 7: only made up of people like that, of course, so
Speaker 7: he frequented the area and knew it well, but was
Speaker 7: able to blend into the background without being noticed, and
Speaker 7: was able to approach the victims and inspire confidence. And furthermore,
Speaker 7: he likely targeted women with marginalized profiles.
Speaker 4: Of fragilitis or plumpsyicle affective.
Speaker 7: Women who were emotionally and psychologically fragile. He targeted them
Speaker 7: because he knew them. The women were not abducted, they
Speaker 7: either decided to go with him or to meet him somewhere.
Speaker 7: The profile also suggests that he was likely of above
Speaker 7: average intelligence and had access to a vehicle, and also
Speaker 7: that he had access to a place where he could
Speaker 7: carry out the murderers and dismemberments without being interrupted.
Speaker 4: His dio sicel shall will de More Bromon.
Speaker 7: The profilers said that they did not believe that the
Speaker 7: dismemberment of the bodies had anything to do with a
Speaker 7: fetish or sadism, but that it was rather practical because
Speaker 7: it's easier to dispose of body parts than all bodies.
Speaker 7: It says that he likely disposed of body arts in
Speaker 7: places he knew well that were close to where he lived.
Speaker 4: A personal.
Speaker 7: It also addressed possible personality trait of the perpetrator. It
Speaker 7: said that he probably had complicated relationships with women and
Speaker 7: a succession of failed relationships, but that he wouldn't necessarily
Speaker 7: have a history of domestic violence. He described the perpetrator
Speaker 7: as someone who managed his emotions and was capable of
Speaker 7: controlling himself even under pressure.
Speaker 4: I designer comes to kill Zappella soft killer.
Speaker 7: It designates him as a soft killer, meaning he was
Speaker 7: able to stop a series of murderers at some point
Speaker 7: due to a new element of stability in his life.
Speaker 7: And the example they gave was starting a successful new
Speaker 7: romantic relationship.
Speaker 1: At the risk of developing tunnel vision about Danielle, I
Speaker 1: have to admit that the FBI profile developed back at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the case is almost a perfect description
Speaker 1: of him. During our interview, he categorically denied his involvement
Speaker 1: several times. We spoke at length about his experience of
Speaker 1: being questioned by police, of how his wife was questioned
Speaker 1: as well, and of having his residences in workplace searched
Speaker 1: multiple times, and of course how all of this affected
Speaker 1: his life negatively. He pointed out repeatedly that there was
Speaker 1: no physical evidence found anywhere in his life, which is
Speaker 1: certainly a very important point to remember. Furthermore, he affirmed
Speaker 1: that his DNA was taken and presumably tested.
Speaker 3: Of course I took the DNA tests. Once again, I
Speaker 3: had nothing to hide, That's the truth. How to believe maybe,
Speaker 3: but I had nothing to reproach myself for nothing involving
Speaker 3: this case at any rate. Even my poor mother they
Speaker 3: shoved a DNA swab in her mouth, and her cleaning lady,
Speaker 3: her cousin too. Yes, it was an ordeal.
Speaker 1: The lack of any physical proof pointing to Danielle is
Speaker 1: a a layering weakness in the circumstantial case against him.
Speaker 1: We know that his DNA was taken and compared to
Speaker 1: any samples collected from the trash bags. Unfortunately, we don't
Speaker 1: know what DNA the police have, nor anything about possible matches,
Speaker 1: as this information is under lock and key. However, you
Speaker 1: have to presume they have some samples. Given the sheer
Speaker 1: number of physical evidence from thirty seven body parts in
Speaker 1: fifteen different trash bags. The fact that they were able
Speaker 1: to find a single hair, extract a DNA sample from it,
Speaker 1: and then follow up with partial matches like Giselle makes
Speaker 1: me think that he must have been tested against every
Speaker 1: possible sample. Had his DNA been found on any of
Speaker 1: the evidence, or if any of the victims DNA had
Speaker 1: been found in any of his belongings, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: he'd be sitting in prison today. Danielle was generous with
Speaker 1: his time, and after about an hour the tension loosened
Speaker 1: a bit. He offered us a drink and we obliged.
Speaker 1: The atmosphere turned friendly, and it was difficult to do this,
Speaker 1: but I had to confront him again about Natalie Goda,
Speaker 1: despite his previous denials. We also had a second source
Speaker 1: recently alleged that Danielle may have spent an evening with
Speaker 1: her and another man known to the police as a
Speaker 1: petty criminal. When we brought up this man's name, he
Speaker 1: said he might have known him, but didn't elaborate. When
Speaker 1: Morgan insisted and linked it to Natalie, he relented.
Speaker 3: I don't remember going out with him. I recall taking
Speaker 3: photos somewhere in the street and we struck up a
Speaker 3: conversation and I told him I'd like to take pictures
Speaker 3: of naked women, nude shots and all that. We all
Speaker 3: have our little quirks, and he told me, don't worry,
Speaker 3: I'll sort you out. He had an easy way of
Speaker 3: getting in touch with certain women. And he came back
Speaker 3: to my place with a woman. I didn't take any
Speaker 3: photos and I didn't see anything because I was completely wasted,
Speaker 3: but I know that he had sex with her in
Speaker 3: my bed, and that they left quietly the next morning.
Speaker 3: I don't think it was Natalie Goda, but I can't
Speaker 3: swear it wasn't.
Speaker 1: Finally, we opened a small crack into his denial of
Speaker 1: knowing Natalie Godard. At this point I explained what Madame
Speaker 1: Ganche told me recently about him renting a room with
Speaker 1: Netalie at Le Metropol. I pulled out my phone and
Speaker 1: played the recording for him.
Speaker 9: I see.
Speaker 6: He came in here and walked straight up to me
Speaker 6: and asked for a room.
Speaker 1: Morgan and I watched him very closely as he listened
Speaker 1: to the recording, ring.
Speaker 6: A trench coat like people wore at that time, a
Speaker 6: greenish trench coat.
Speaker 1: When Madame Ganche said that he was wearing a greenish
Speaker 1: trench coat that night, he crooked his head in what
Speaker 1: looked like confused amusement. While the recording still played. He
Speaker 1: said to himself out loud, it's true I had a
Speaker 1: coat like that. He said he didn't remember renting a
Speaker 1: room with Natalie, but that he also didn't think Madame
Speaker 1: Ganche is a liar, and that if she said it happened,
Speaker 1: it must be true because he did often wear a
Speaker 1: greenish trench coat at the time. Once again, I'm struck
Speaker 1: by his transparency. He could have just stuck with his
Speaker 1: original denial. I mean, we had no idea he wore
Speaker 1: a coat like that. As we wound up to leave,
Speaker 1: he said he's lucky that the cops didn't know some
Speaker 1: of the things we dug up at the time, because
Speaker 1: he surely would have been arrested and charged, And in
Speaker 1: the next breath he said it would have been a
Speaker 1: terrible miscarriage of justice. It makes me think back to
Speaker 1: what started the whole chain of offense that brought us here,
Speaker 1: the original tip about Danielle to the gen Dear Marie.
Speaker 1: If only they would have handled this correctly and passed
Speaker 1: the tip on to their colleagues of the judicial police,
Speaker 1: Danielle wouldn't have been summoned, but rather questioned and searched
Speaker 1: by surprise. It's a tragedy that cuts both ways. On
Speaker 1: one hand, police lost the element of surprise and possibly
Speaker 1: the opportunity to find proof of Danielle's guilt. On the
Speaker 1: other hand, Danielle somehow lost the presumption of innocence in
Speaker 1: the minds of the police. They knew he could have
Speaker 1: had time to potentially hide evidence and prepare his story.
Speaker 1: Next year will mark thirty years since the first victim
Speaker 1: of the Butcher of Mons disappeared, and the victim's names
Speaker 1: should never be forgotten. They are Carmeline Russeau, Martin Baun,
Speaker 1: Jacqueline Leclaire, Natalie Godard and Bogonia Valencia. They deserve justice
Speaker 1: and their families deserve closure. Throughout this podcast investigation, we've
Speaker 1: rehashed old theories and suspects and brought new information to light.
Speaker 1: Some believe that the Butcher of Mons died in prison
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. His name Smayojerlik, also known as the
Speaker 1: Bronx Butcher. He was a proven murderer who dismembered his
Speaker 1: girlfriend Mary Beale in nineteen ninety before fleeing to Belgium
Speaker 1: just in time for the Mause murders to begin. Others
Speaker 1: believe the Butcher of Moss is alive and well, despite
Speaker 1: the lack of physical proof. Several of the police officers
Speaker 1: in judicial authorities who work the case still believe that
Speaker 1: the man we're calling Danielle is the Butcher of mass
Speaker 1: While there's no DNA match or other physical evidence linking
Speaker 1: into the crimes, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. His recent
Speaker 1: admissions to US only further dial up suspicion despite him
Speaker 1: consistently maintaining his innocence. One thing we know for sure
Speaker 1: is that the Butcher of Mals case file contains information
Speaker 1: that has never been released to the families or to
Speaker 1: the public DNA results persons of interest in case, details
Speaker 1: that could clear some suspects and open the door to others.
Speaker 1: I'm proud of the work that Frederic Morgan, Xavier Allan
Speaker 1: and myself have done so far, and we're just scratching
Speaker 1: the surface of what we could do with all of
Speaker 1: the information in hand. We'll continue to work with the
Speaker 1: families and fight for transparency and justice. If you have
Speaker 1: any information about the Butcher of Mall's case, please share
Speaker 1: it via the Facebook group page, Facebook dot com slash
Speaker 1: groups slash Malls Killings. If and when we uncovered new developments,
Speaker 1: you'll be the first to find out. Please be sure
Speaker 1: to follow the show on your app to stay connected.
Speaker 1: Until then, Stay safe and see you soon. Mercy e
Speaker 1: Abientu Le Montre is a production of Tenderfoot TV and
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, hosted, written, and executive produced by me Matt Graves,
Speaker 1: Donald Albright, and Payne Lindsay are executive producers on the
Speaker 1: behalf of Tenderfoot TV, with producer Makeup and vanity set.
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Trevor Young are executive producers on the
Speaker 1: behalf of iHeart Podcasts. Original music by Jay Ragsdale, sound
Speaker 1: design and master by Cooper Skinner, Cover design by Byron
Speaker 1: McCoy and Trevor Eiler. La Monstre includes archival audio from
Speaker 1: SONNEMA RTBF Archives. Special thanks to Aren Rosenbaum and the
Speaker 1: team at UTA, the Nord Group, and our active investigation
Speaker 1: team Morgen van Leerberg, Fredrich lah Zervi de Com and
Speaker 1: Anna Gardon, as well as the teams at iHeart Podcasts
Speaker 1: and Tenderfoot TV. Find us on social media at Monster
Speaker 1: Underscore pod. For more podcasts like Lea Monstre, search Tenderfoot
Speaker 1: TV in your podcast app, or visit Tenderfoot TV.