1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: The Butcher of Moss is released weekly absolutely free, but 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: you can binge the entire season now with iHeart True 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: Crime Plus exclusively on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: free listening and exclusive bonus episodes, So head to Apple 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: Podcasts search iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressing this podcast are solely those 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 2: of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 2: and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or 9 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may 10 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 2: not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 11 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: It's a hotter than usual summer day. I'm pulled over 12 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: on this side of the road, confirming an address in 13 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: Google Maps as I try to figure out how to 14 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: get to my destination. I see I've come to the 15 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: south of Belgium, to a small village where I'm meeting Morgan. 16 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: But we're off to a slow start, just. 17 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 3: Arriving here now. 18 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: In the village where Dania lives, and it happens to 19 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: be a big village and party going into ville. The 20 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: entire village is cordoned off for a summer festival. Hundreds 21 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: of people are gathered for a re enactment of an 22 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: eighteenth century military parade. The soldier's uniforms and cobbled streets 23 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: are a site right out of Napoleon's time. Military parade 24 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: with something old military Napoleon style. I have to admit 25 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: it all feels a bit surreal. I meet Morgan in 26 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: the center of the village and we weave our way 27 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: through the re enactment, headed towards an address just minutes away. 28 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: For me, it's the culmination of months of work from Morgan. 29 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: It's years of investigation that land us at this doorstep. 30 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: The stakes are high because we're about to come face 31 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: to face with a man who may well be the 32 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: Butcher of Moss. 33 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 4: I can't belie mysteriously. 34 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 5: As they disappearance of a woman from mont. 35 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 6: A condition of the victims was sickening. 36 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 4: And the question remains, where is the killer? 37 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: From Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts, I'm your host, Matt 38 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: Graves and this is Lea Monstre Season two, The Butcher 39 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: of Moss. Our investigations into a man named George, who 40 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: you'll recall Morgan tracked down led us to believe that 41 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: he was the man seemingly stalking Jacqueline, identifying George led 42 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: us to another man, who are calling Danielle, And what 43 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: we've learned about Danielle does not disappoint. It started with 44 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: a conversation at Le Metropol between George and Danielle that 45 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: was also overheard by Madame Ganche. In this conversation, Danielle 46 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: was said to have shown his hands to George and 47 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: stated something the effect of I have blood on my 48 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: hands or these hands have killed more than once. As mentioned, 49 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: George reported this conversation to the police and Danielle was 50 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: summoned to the Gendarmerie for an interview. Instead of being 51 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: surprised by the judicial police who were actually investigating the case, 52 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: we believe at the time between the initial summons and 53 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: the interview was two to three days. 54 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 7: The judicial police learned that the Gendarmerie issued a summon 55 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 7: to daniel and they arranged it so they could take 56 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 7: over the interview. So they actually went to the Gendarmerie 57 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 7: and picked him up when he arrived there and took 58 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 7: him to their station where he was interrogated. 59 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 4: Alison que what struck the. 60 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 7: Investigators first of all was his attitude. He was being 61 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 7: questioned about a particularly atrocious series of crimes, and he 62 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 7: didn't seem to take any offense to it. They were 63 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 7: expecting that he would p the test is in a 64 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 7: sense that he would be outraged at the idea that 65 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 7: he could be a suspect, but it wasn't that at all. 66 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 7: He was particularly calm and in full control of his emotions. 67 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: Upon learning that he was being questioned about the trash 68 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: bags full of body parts, he said, let the chess 69 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: game begin. They felt like he was taunting them, which 70 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: certainly roused their suspicions. They obtained a warrant to search 71 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: his residence, and the more they investigated, the more suspicious 72 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: they became. Okay, we are just left the Rue de 73 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: vande Velde and were approaching a house that we think 74 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: one of the suspects was living in at the time. 75 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: I'm standing in front of the house that Danielle lived 76 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: in at the time of the murders. We're on the 77 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: street where the bodies were dropped off on the twenty 78 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: second of March. If you go about five hundred meters 79 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: away from that place and you land right in front 80 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: of this house. The particular thing about this house is 81 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: that there is a garage opening on the side of 82 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: the house, because this is you know, we're in the 83 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: center of Europe here, so all of the houses are 84 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: joined because there's no backyards or anything like that. So 85 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: we're on a sidewalk and there's like a row of 86 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: houses that are all joined next to each other, and 87 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: you have a one of the houses that has sort 88 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: of a side garage where you could drive in and 89 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: then around the back where someone could discreetly drop off bodies. 90 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: Must let's be clear. So the thought is that what 91 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: he could have very easily done would be to drive 92 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: a car down this road, turn into this garage here, 93 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: and then just turn around the corner and be completely 94 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: hidden from anyone or anything. And this is pretty much 95 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: the only house in this street that you could do 96 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: that with. And so if it does turn out to 97 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: be where he was living at the time, that's quite 98 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: interesting for you. When police searched his house, it was 99 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: apparently spotless. They even went to the lengths of stripping 100 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: out his plumbing, presumably looking for blood or other evidence 101 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: of disposal. What they found instead was that his pipes 102 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: had apparently been cleaned with acid. They even searched his 103 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: utility records which showed that he'd consumed unusually high amounts 104 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: of water the previous year. His computer was also searched, 105 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: but the hard drive had recently been wiped clean it. 106 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: Forensic specialists were able to recuperate the deleted files, which 107 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: included a digital sex game, pornographic videos, and, most worryingly, 108 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: nude photos that Daniel had taken of a woman. The 109 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: pictures appeared to investigators to be more like an anatomic 110 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: study than pornography, including close ups of intimate body parts. 111 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: There were no photographs of the victims found. They also 112 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: obtained a warrant to search his workplace and cross references 113 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: schedule with the crimes. Employee records indicated that he was 114 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: never at work when the disappearances occurred. Apparently, he kept 115 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: his call throughout the interviews, with the exception of one moment. 116 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: Frederic Law explainski. 117 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 7: Particular moment he was completely in control of his emotions 118 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 7: during the interrogation, which surprised the investigators. Lucal moment and 119 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 7: the only moment where he lost his nerve was when 120 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 7: the confronted him with the testimony of two servels from 121 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 7: bars near the train station who said they saw him 122 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 7: together with one of the victims, in this instance, Martin 123 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 7: Bud and he lost his cal He flew off the 124 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 7: handel and insulted them. It was the only moment that 125 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,599 Speaker 7: he completely changed his attitude. 126 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: Danielle categorically denied having known any of the victims, and 127 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: police were never able to validate that he did. However, 128 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: we've recently collected compelling new testimony from Madame Ganche that 129 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: she never shared with police. She said she never shared 130 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: it because she was so annoyed by being accused herself 131 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: that she stopped speaking with the police altogether. 132 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 6: You know what, I'm going to tell you something. I 133 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 6: had daniel here one evening Champ He came to get 134 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 6: a room with Natalie. 135 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: She explains that Danielle rented a room with a victim, 136 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: Natalie Godar, at her hotel Metropolis. 137 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 6: He came in here and walked straight up to me 138 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 6: and asked for a room. He was wearing a trench 139 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 6: coat like people wore at that time, a greenish trench coat, 140 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 6: and he asked for a room for him and his 141 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 6: guest Jack, and I thought, what's he doing with her? 142 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 6: It was right around that time, nineteen ninety six, because 143 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 6: she was dead a few weeks later, I received them here. 144 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 6: At least once. I didn't see him fitting with her. 145 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 6: The couple didn't go together. Natalie was tall, but well, 146 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 6: she wasn't all that much. She never wore makeup, and 147 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 6: she drank her beers and that was enough for her. 148 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 6: And he was a tall and handsome man. 149 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: I asked her if she was sure it was Danielle. 150 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 6: Yes, Yes, it was daniel Yes, a tall and elegant man. 151 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 6: It was him. 152 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety six, Danielle was thirty five years old. 153 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: He worked as a machine technician at an industrial company 154 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: where he mostly did shift hours and would frequently get 155 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: off at around ten pm and then spend the entire 156 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: night out drinking in the train station neighborhood. Multiple witnesses 157 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: from the bar and hotel scene at the time had 158 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: already placed Danielle with one victim, Martin Bone, and now 159 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: Madame Ganche just placed Danielle with a second victim, Natalie 160 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: go Dard new information that authorities never received. As we 161 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: combed through the original investigation to learn as much about 162 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: the evidence as possible, we discovered that police received a 163 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: tip from a homeless man named Renee who claimed to 164 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: have seen a suspicious vehicle at one of the dumb sites. 165 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: Again Frederic Law so as the Alipok. 166 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 7: This homeless man was interviewed at the time by the 167 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 7: unit investigating the case and he said that he witnessed 168 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 7: suspicious activity near the path of Wherri where some of 169 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 7: the torsos were found. 170 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 4: Didischman like you, jud Dave Guldnuvau Team Breck. 171 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 7: He said he saw a station wagon making suspicious trips 172 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 7: back and forth. As I'm not sure if he gave 173 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 7: the exact model, but he gave a clear description of 174 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 7: the vehicle as being a dark colored station wagon. 175 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: You'll recall that the investigative journalist, Frederic Law, is originally 176 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: from moss and since we've been reinvestigating the case, he's 177 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: been reaching out to friends and contacts to look for 178 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: potential witnesses who never reported information to police. We've recently 179 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: obtained no testimony about suspicious sightings of a station wagon. 180 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 8: Companion, my partner at the time, went to buy cigarettes. 181 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 8: It was the month of March and it was dark 182 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 8: outside and he went to a convenience store and on 183 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 8: his way back from getting cigarettes, he was on the 184 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 8: riv Underveld and he had to swerve because a car, 185 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 8: a station wagon was parked on the side halfway in 186 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 8: the road and a person was throwing trash backs down 187 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 8: towards the ditch. He passed the car and had time 188 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 8: to see the silhouette of a person, a man alone 189 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 8: in a station wagon. 190 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 4: He thought it was dark in color. 191 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 8: And he went home and then went out again later 192 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 8: driving towards Mons and he was stopped by police. It 193 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 8: was a basic traffic stop, and he recalls saying to 194 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 8: the police that instead of bothering him, they should go 195 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 8: get the guy who was dumping trash backs in the ditch, 196 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 8: and police didn't follow up because they were doing some 197 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 8: other control for speeding or an alcohol test, I'm not sure. 198 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 8: And afterwards, when the sacks were discovered, he made the connection. 199 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 8: He never went to report it because he had a 200 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,599 Speaker 8: tense relationship with the police. 201 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 9: La Veules. 202 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 8: He told me that in his mind, in any case, 203 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 8: he believes he saw the trash backs being deposited by 204 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 8: the butcher. 205 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: Of Moss because it was during the month of March 206 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, shortly before the first discoveries at the 207 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: exact same spot. The man was convinced he witnessed the 208 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: butcher of Mons disposing of body parts in those trash bags. 209 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: He's also convinced that the butcher of Mons drove a 210 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: dark colored station wagon, corroborating the testimony of Renee, a 211 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,599 Speaker 1: witness from the original investigation. Before learning about the significance 212 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: of the dark colored station wagon, Morgan made some discoveries 213 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: that didn't seem significant at the time. As he collected 214 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: testimony for his book, he spoke to a man who 215 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: lived near the dumping grounds. 216 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 4: Luteman record of the witness. 217 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 10: I spoke to explain that when you crossed the bridge 218 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 10: on Rue vander Velda, near where the discoveries were made, 219 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 10: there's a small street on the. 220 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 9: Right annum Nito opel brech Dontru. 221 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 10: Shortly before the trash bags were found, he noticed a 222 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 10: man meticulously cleaning out an Opal station wagon in this 223 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 10: street where the witness lived himself, and it jumped out 224 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 10: at him because the man didn't live in his street. 225 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: The witness said he noticed the man cleaning the Opal 226 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: station wagon because it was in front of a vacant 227 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: house that wasn't his. Unfortunately, he couldn't remember what the 228 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: man looked like at the time. Of the murders. Not 229 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: only did Danielle live near this witness and in close 230 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: proximity to the dumping grounds, but we also recently learned 231 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: from a source close to the investigation that he drove 232 00:14:46,440 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: a dark colored Opal station wagon. In twenty twenty two, 233 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: Morgan published his book on the Butcher of MOUs case 234 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: titled Ile moens sanc monquete sur le depasur de Moss 235 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: or in English, its Five to the Hour Investigation into 236 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: the Butcher of Moss. The title of its five to 237 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: the hour refers to the fact that at the time 238 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: of publication, the investigation had five years to go before 239 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: reaching its statute of limitation and being definitively closed, which 240 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: is set to happen in twenty twenty seven. He spent 241 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: years building relationships, interviewing witnesses, and developing sources, some confidentially. 242 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: Before he knew of Danielle's existence, several leads emerged that 243 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: put Morgan on Danielle's trail. Many of those leads came 244 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: from le Metropoles, where Morgan spent countless hours speaking with 245 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: Monique and anyone else connected to the station area during 246 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: the time of the murders. At first his efforts to 247 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,479 Speaker 1: engage were met with wariness. Only after locals grew accustomed 248 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: to seeing him regularly at the bar did some begin 249 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: to open up. One woman he'd seen at Le Metropole 250 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: several times kept very much to herself and clearly didn't 251 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: want to speak with him, But after some encouragement from 252 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: Madame Ganche, she finally relented. Even after all these years, 253 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: she still apprehensive because the killer is still out there. 254 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: After gaining her trust, she shared disturbing circumstances involving a 255 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: woman named Guile, a potential survivor of the Butcher of Moss. 256 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: These are her words, not her voice. 257 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 5: I know that some time before she had been approached 258 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 5: by a man with whom she had spent a few days. 259 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 5: I didn't pay much attention at the time, but not 260 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 5: long after I was surprised not to see her anymore. 261 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 5: That began to worry me, so I went to the 262 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 5: police to report her disappearance. The man with whom she 263 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 5: stayed was Danielle. After reporting Guile missing, he came to 264 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 5: find me at the bar where I was working at 265 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 5: the time. He stormed into the place. He was tense, 266 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 5: upset and sweating all over in an aggressive tone. He 267 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 5: told me I shouldn't have reported her missing because it 268 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 5: had caused him serious problems. I felt threatened. I'd never 269 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 5: seen him like that before. I assumed his violent reaction 270 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 5: was linked to the report I had made to the police. 271 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: Since learning about Danielle, Morgan did door to door inquiries 272 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: in the street where he lived at the time. It's 273 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: been almost thirty years, so it was a bit of 274 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: a hail Mary. But on one of his last door 275 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: knocks he spoke with a couple who recalled a worrying 276 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: encounter with a young woman in distress. Unfortunately, the couple 277 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: didn't want to be recorded. 278 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 10: Morgan explains, it's a couple that lived in the Rue 279 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 10: van der Velda at the time of the murders, and 280 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 10: even before they couldn't recall the exact timing. Just in 281 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 10: front of their house there's a small park and one morning, 282 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 10: very early, there was a woman there, half naked and exposed, 283 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 10: who appeared inebriated and she was frantically repeating that someone 284 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 10: was trying to hurt her. They took her into their 285 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 10: house and she was in shock, so they called the police, 286 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 10: who came and picked her up. It was on the 287 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 10: Act to do and this couple lived directly next door 288 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 10: to daniel but they couldn't say if she had been 289 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 10: at his house. 290 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: Although I don't have definitive proof, it's my professional opinion 291 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: that this woman was Guiles, and I believe that the 292 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: quote someone trying to quote hurt her was Danielle. After 293 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 1: Giles's friend whose words we just heard, reported her missing, 294 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: she was actually located by police and Brussels. They tried 295 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: to question her about the incident, but she was unable 296 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: or unwilling to discuss it. Xavier looked into giles past 297 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: to learn more about her lifestyle then and her whereabouts now. 298 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 9: In nineteen ninety six, she would have been twenty seven 299 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 9: years old. It appears that she didn't have a fixed 300 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 9: residence and was basically living in the streets. I was 301 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 9: able to find trace of her existence via family members 302 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 9: on Facebook. 303 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 4: For two. 304 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 9: When I finally found a picture of her from the time, 305 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 9: she looked like a face you would have seen on 306 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 9: the model board for this case, very similar to some 307 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 9: of the other victims, a profile much like Natalie Goda, 308 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 9: actually leaving rough spending time in the streets and bars 309 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 9: around the station. 310 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: Gile had a long history of psychological issues which had 311 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: taken a turn for the worse. After the incident, we 312 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: of course wanted very much to speak with Gile, but 313 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: Xavier was able to establish that she passed away in 314 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Back when writing his book, Morgan had 315 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: heard about a woman who was viciously attacked by a 316 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: man who actually worked as a butcher in Moss. It 317 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: would be cruel irony if the Butcher of Moss turned 318 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: out to be an actual butcher. In any case, the 319 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: story piqued Morgan's interest, and he set out to find 320 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: the woman who had been assaulted. It turned out that 321 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: she was the victim of a brutal attack where a 322 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: man attempted to cut her throat in the street with 323 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: a knife. The perpetrator was convicted of the crime, but 324 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: it was established that he couldn't be our Butcher of 325 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: Moss given his age and alibis. However, the same woman, 326 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: who was a sex worker at the time, told Morgan 327 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: about another negative experience with a different man, a man 328 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: named Danielle Queen. 329 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 10: I spoke with another woman who lived in the train 330 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 10: station area at the time. She also had a similar 331 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 10: profile as some of the victims, and she's still very fragile. 332 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 10: Now I slowly gained her confidence, and she told me 333 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 10: about an experience she had with Danielle. After a day 334 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 10: of drinking in the bars, she got into a car 335 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 10: with him and it didn't go well. She can't remember 336 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 10: the exact circumstances or didn't want to say, but whatever 337 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 10: it was appeared to traumatize her and she did whatever 338 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 10: she could to get out of the car. She fought back, 339 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 10: and he stopped the car and she managed to jump out. 340 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 10: She couldn't discribe exactly what happened, but whatever it was 341 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 10: scared her and she wanted to escape, and it still 342 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 10: stuck in her memory. At first, I wasn't sure that 343 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 10: it was really our Danielle, but when she confirmed his nickname, 344 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 10: I knew it was him. 345 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: Through a deep dive into Danielle's past, we learned that 346 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: at the beginning of nineteen ninety seven, he moved in 347 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: with a woman who would later become his wife. After 348 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: they married, the butcher of Man's murders stopped. However, between 349 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: the time Danielle moved into his new girlfriend's house and 350 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: their wedding, there was one last murder, that of Begugnia Valencia. 351 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: Bogonia's case is somewhat of an outlier, as she didn't 352 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: disappear from the center of mass like the other victims, 353 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: but rather from the municipality of Framerie on the outskirts 354 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: of the city. Fremrie happens to be where Danielle's new 355 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: residence was. In fact, in order to drive to work, 356 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: he had to take the road where Bogognia was last seen. 357 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: The amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to Danielle's possible involvement 358 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: with these murders is overwhelming, yet he was never arrested 359 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: or charged. However, our investigation has uncovered new evidence that 360 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: police didn't know at the time. The testimony from Madame 361 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: Ganche stating that Danielle rented a room with Nettali Go 362 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: Daard at Le Metropol shortly before her murder, the sightings 363 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 1: of vehicles at crime scenes matching what he drove at 364 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: the time, New testimonies from women who had negative and 365 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: frightening experiences with Danielle, and his next door neighbor's account 366 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: of finding a half naked and terrified woman in front 367 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: of his house, claiming that someone was trying to hurt her. 368 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: Since our recent discovery of these elements, we've been working 369 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: towards trying to confront Danielle. At the very beginning, we 370 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: didn't even know his name, but through the dogged work 371 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: of Morgan, Frederic and Xavier, we found him. It was 372 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: difficult because he has zero online footprint. We found an 373 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: address and Morgan spent a day doing reconnaissance around the area. 374 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: We didn't even have a picture of him, but Morgan 375 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: observed a man living at the address who fit the 376 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: age and physical description. Separately, Frederic was able to track 377 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: down Danielle's estranged wife. She maintained that he had nothing 378 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: to do with the murders and asked for us to 379 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: leave them alone. After exhausting all of those angles, Morgan 380 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: mailed Danielle a letter another Hail Mary. But to our 381 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: great surprise, it worked and he responded to the email 382 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: Morgan provided. This is what brought Morgan and I to 383 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: the south of Belgium, where the episode began, navigating through 384 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: the cobbled streets of a village flanked by an unanticipated 385 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: summer festival, making our way on foot to Danielle's residence. 386 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 1: Danielle knows we're making a podcast, but he doesn't want 387 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: to be recorded. However, we do have an accurate transcript 388 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: of the interview. I want to build confidence with him, 389 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: so I explain that I'm recording our arrival. Only then 390 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: I show him that I'm turning off the recorder, which 391 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: I do. His house is about a fifteen minute walk 392 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: away from the center of the village, nestled on a 393 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: hillside and surrounded by lush greenery. He welcomes us politely 394 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: and we sit down around his dining room table. He's 395 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: rather tall in his mid sixties, and you can tell 396 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: he was probably quite strong in his younger years. However, 397 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: he's apparently had hard problems, and his physique bears the 398 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: unmistakable toll of decades of drinking. Indeed, it was ten 399 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: am and he had already worked his way through a 400 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: good portion of a bottle of wine sitting on the 401 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: table in front of him. He's courteous, but gives off 402 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: an aura that keeps me slightly on guard. He speaks 403 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: clearly and with confidence, definitely not a fool. I'm sitting 404 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: directly across from him, and I can't help but stare 405 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: at his hands, wondering if those are the hands that 406 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: murder and dismembered at least five women. Morgan gigs off 407 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: by asking him why he agreed to meet with us. 408 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: With transcripts from the interview, we've been able to recreate 409 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: Danielle's words. 410 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 3: If I didn't meet you, you see, I'd be afraid 411 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 3: that you might invent things. It's to fill in the 412 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 3: gaps so you don't fill them in yourself. 413 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: After some more small talk about our project, we ask 414 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: him to explain how he ended up in Moss. 415 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 3: I was deeply in love with a woman, but she 416 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 3: dumbed me. I'd say that between the ages of thirty 417 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 3: one and thirty five there was a gap. I didn't 418 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 3: have any real relationships with women, apart from a few encounters, 419 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 3: but not with the kind of women you'd want to 420 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 3: build a life with. And even that wasn't so common. 421 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 3: I spent my nights at the le Metropol, the Carridas, 422 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 3: and in an even more unspeakable place, the Unsolite. 423 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: The Carridas and the Ansolite were bars and Moss. 424 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 3: At the time, well, I didn't live an exemplary life. 425 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 3: I drank beyond all imagination. A typical day in Mons 426 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 3: for me was I was working shifts at the factory. 427 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 3: I'd finish at ten PM after sharing a coffee with 428 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 3: a buddy taking over. At ten thirty, I'd get in 429 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 3: my car, and by eleven p m. I was in 430 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 3: Mons And then without fail, I'd end up at Le Metropol. 431 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 3: I'd fuel myself with Left Blonde, not two or three. 432 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 3: I really drank hard. 433 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: Left Blonde is a typical trap of style Belgian beer, 434 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: with about twice the alcohol content of a normal American beer. 435 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: He later explained to me that he'd drink ten or 436 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: more of these on a night out around the train station. 437 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 3: Afterwards, sometimes I'd go back to the Ansolite. You needed 438 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 3: a fat wallet for that place. You can't even call 439 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 3: the Ansolita bar. It was an outright to bordello. 440 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: Really, as far as I can tell, the Absolete was 441 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: basically a sex club. 442 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 3: I've always had a tendency to hang around with disreputable people. Why, 443 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 3: I don't know. It's just how I'm wired. I have 444 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 3: to say it got worse after I turned thirty. Between 445 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 3: twenty and thirty, I still had a certain restraint. But 446 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 3: once I was on my own in my apartment in 447 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 3: quem near the Mont train station. I took full advantage 448 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 3: of it. That's where I met Monique Gone and her 449 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: friend George at Le Metropol. George was a bit of 450 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 3: a clown, a very likable guy, but with the flaw 451 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 3: of pretending to be some kind of hypnotist. 452 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: You'll recall that George is the man who claimed to 453 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: have psychic powers and spent his time doing readings with 454 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: women at the Metropol. 455 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 3: It's true that once, when I was very drunk, I 456 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 3: said to George, you see, George, these hands have blood 457 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 3: on them. I was completely wasted. I don't know why 458 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 3: I said that, but I did. Anyway, Yes that sentence. Yes, 459 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 3: what an idiot I was. Yes, I said it. I 460 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 3: was completely wasted. And since I'm a pretty good actor, 461 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 3: when I said it, I must have been very convincing. 462 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 3: So there you go, one more stupid thing to add 463 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 3: to the list. 464 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: As far as we know, this is the first time 465 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: Danielle admits to making this statement. We were told that 466 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: he never admitted it to police, but in our interview 467 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: he clearly admits to it. Next, we go through the 468 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: list of victims with him. 469 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 3: Begonia Valencia no memory at all, not even of seeing 470 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: her I have no recollection. Maybe she was sitting at 471 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 3: a table a few meters away having a drink, but 472 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 3: I don't have any memory of it. Jacqueline Leclaire. Judging 473 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 3: from the photos she was fairly tall, but I don't 474 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 3: have any memory of her. Natalie Godard Well, I learned 475 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 3: from the press that she was seeing Leopold Bogart. I 476 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 3: don't recall her. 477 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: I decided not to confront Danielle just yet about Madame 478 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: Ganci's recent claim to have rented a room to him 479 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: at L Metropole with Natalie Goddard. He's talking and at 480 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: this stage we're still trying to build a rapport with him. 481 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 3: Martin Boone Well, at the end of one of my 482 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 3: drunken nights at Le Metropol, around six or seven in 483 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 3: the morning, I remember ordering a bottle of gin with 484 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 3: a prostitute, and I believe it was Martin Boone. 485 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: This is the first time he openly admits to having 486 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: spent time with Martin Boone. A witness had reported seeing 487 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: him with Martin at a different bar, but this time 488 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: he's saying he was with her at L Metropole, so 489 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: this could constitute two different sightings. 490 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 3: Carmelina Russo. I may have interacted with her at the unsolite. 491 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 3: You know what happened at the unsolite. We did whatever 492 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 3: we wanted, even in the booths, and there was a 493 00:29:54,760 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 3: woman who looked like Carmelina Russo, who I think liked me. 494 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 3: I say looked like oh, because I wouldn't swear it 495 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 3: was actually Carmelina. It's possible, but only. 496 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: Once again another admission. He had never admitted to interacting 497 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: with Carmeline Roussu. In fact, until today, he had always 498 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: denied knowing any of the victims. You recall that the 499 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: only time he lost his call when being questioned by 500 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: police was when he was confronted by testimony from two 501 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: female servers from bars downtown. One of these women, whose 502 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: name we've changed to Julie in a transcription, apparently still 503 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: gets under his skin. 504 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 3: Between Julie and me, things didn't go too well. She said, 505 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 3: I was a man who despised women and thought that 506 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 3: all women were whores. I love women, and I don't 507 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 3: consider all of them to be whores, but some are, 508 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 3: and that's the case with Julie. 509 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: Morgan asks if he booked a room with Natalie Goddard 510 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: at Le Metropol. 511 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 3: No or else, I must have had one hell of 512 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 3: a blackout. No, you know, for a simple reason, a 513 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 3: financial one. At the time, I wasn't making that much money. 514 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 3: I had to live my rent, my little car, food, 515 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 3: covering my nights out with beer, occasionally allowing myself the brothel. 516 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 3: I couldn't see myself paying for an extra room, quite 517 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 3: simply for financial reasons. And no, I don't remember ever 518 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 3: going up to a room at Le Metropol. 519 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: We refer to a recent newspaper article about the case 520 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: that he said it'd read before our interview. The article 521 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: speculated that the butcher of Moss must have known as victims, 522 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: and that his motivation for the murders was likely sexual. 523 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 3: I was sexually motivated, but not to the point of 524 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 3: cutting people up and taking their lives. That's something you 525 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 3: have to keep in mind. The newspaper articles mentioned the 526 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 3: use of a hexele. I've never cut up a body 527 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 3: in my life, but it's true that it's the ideal 528 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: tool for dismembering once the body is rigid. I would 529 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,959 Speaker 3: say it must be a fairly effective tool for that, 530 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 3: But me, I've only ever used one to cut copper 531 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 3: pipes and iron bars. 532 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: He's obviously baiting us at this point, musing about how 533 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: a hack saw would be the ideal instrument to dismember 534 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: a body, but only once rigor sets in. It sort 535 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: of feels like he can't help himself, which reminds me 536 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: of how police felt about him in their initial interviews, 537 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: confidently playing with fire and taunting his interviewers. He's mostly 538 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: affable during the interview, but from time to time there's 539 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: a darkness in his gaze when we cover subjects that 540 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: annoy him. That being said, he's incredibly transparent. He openly 541 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: admits to being an alcoholic, frequenting dodgy establishments, and engaging 542 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: with sex workers, and even admits things to us that 543 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: he never confessed to the police. He says that he 544 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: understands why he was a suspect, but category denies any 545 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: involvement with the murders. When we turned the subject to Guielle, 546 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: the woman who had a negative experience with Danielle but 547 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: then refused to talk about it, his response floors us. 548 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 3: Yes, I met Guyelle at the Apao bar and she 549 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 3: told me she was going to be evicted from her place, 550 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 3: and I told her well, then come stay at my place. 551 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 3: So she lived with me for a few weeks. She 552 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 3: wasn't stable, that girl. She was schizophrenic. I think I'm 553 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 3: not a doctor, but I think that's what she was. 554 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 3: It's true that I asked her to pose for me 555 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 3: for nude photos. But those photos you see a thousand 556 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 3: times worse on the internet today than what I took. Unfortunately, 557 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 3: I can't show them to you because they weren't returned 558 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 3: to me. They were black and white photos, and yes, 559 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 3: her vagina was visible, you know. Gustav Corbet Lore Jean Dumont. Well, 560 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 3: it was more or less that kind of photo. So 561 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 3: it wasn't really erotic, and it wasn't pornographic either. She 562 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 3: wasn't doing anything sexual, and I thought it was beautiful 563 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 3: to photograph her female body. 564 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: The Artistine mentions. Gustave Courbet was a French painter, most 565 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: famous for his work called Lorigeann Dumont. It's a close 566 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: up view of the vagina and abdomen of a naked 567 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: woman lying on a bed with her legs spread. In 568 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: any case, we now know that the nude photographs found 569 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: on his computer were of Gaya. 570 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 3: I have to say I am rather free spirited. There 571 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 3: was no sadomasochistic element, none of that. There weren't any 572 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 3: extreme close ups either. They weren't medical pictures. I actually 573 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 3: thought that my name was shared with the police by 574 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 3: my landlord at the time because he saw Guyell jumping 575 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 3: over my fence. I never should have done it, but 576 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 3: I locked her into my place so that when I 577 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 3: went to work she wouldn't go drinking at the barney. 578 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 3: It was unlawful confinement, but at thirty I was stupid. 579 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 3: I didn't realize it. And if Guyell didn't end up 580 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 3: in a garbage bag, it's because Daniel invited her to 581 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 3: his place. Otherwise she would she would have met the 582 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 3: same fate. So I have nothing to reproach myself for 583 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 3: in having taken in Guyell. 584 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: The information he just shared about Guyele is a significant revelation. 585 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: He just admitted to kidnapping a young woman with the 586 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: same exact profile as the other victims, and also taking 587 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: explicit pictures of her naked body. While he hasn't admitted 588 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: to anything illegal with the five victims, this does perhaps 589 00:35:45,719 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: establish a potential pattern. We just recently learned that Belgian 590 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 1: authorities reached out to the FBI's behavioral Science unit early 591 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: on in the Butcher of Man's investigation to help them 592 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: establish a profile. This was unrelated to the interactions they 593 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: had with the FBI concerning Smaiyo Jurleik from the Bronx 594 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: Butcher case, which took place much later. 595 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 11: Frederick explains, perhaps more de Blanquet, the investigators early in 596 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 11: the case contacted the FBI's behavioral Science unit in Quantico, 597 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 11: and they assisted the Belgian in creating a profile of 598 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 11: the possible killer. 599 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 4: Nudique luteur de fe what rondomous. 600 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 7: The profile stated that the popetrator was likely a man 601 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 7: living alone who was a regular in the train station area, 602 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 7: but who wasn't part of the social network of the neighborhood. 603 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 7: To say it crudely, he wasn't a drifter or someone 604 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 7: who was down and out, even if that neighborhood isn't 605 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 7: only made up of people like that, of course, so 606 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 7: he frequented the area and knew it well, but was 607 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 7: able to blend into the background without being noticed, and 608 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 7: was able to approach the victims and inspire confidence. And furthermore, 609 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 7: he likely targeted women with marginalized profiles. 610 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 4: Of fragilitis or plumpsyicle affective. 611 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,879 Speaker 7: Women who were emotionally and psychologically fragile. He targeted them 612 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 7: because he knew them. The women were not abducted, they 613 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 7: either decided to go with him or to meet him somewhere. 614 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 7: The profile also suggests that he was likely of above 615 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 7: average intelligence and had access to a vehicle, and also 616 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 7: that he had access to a place where he could 617 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 7: carry out the murderers and dismemberments without being interrupted. 618 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 4: His dio sicel shall will de More Bromon. 619 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 7: The profilers said that they did not believe that the 620 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 7: dismemberment of the bodies had anything to do with a 621 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,760 Speaker 7: fetish or sadism, but that it was rather practical because 622 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 7: it's easier to dispose of body parts than all bodies. 623 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 7: It says that he likely disposed of body arts in 624 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 7: places he knew well that were close to where he lived. 625 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 4: A personal. 626 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 7: It also addressed possible personality trait of the perpetrator. It 627 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 7: said that he probably had complicated relationships with women and 628 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 7: a succession of failed relationships, but that he wouldn't necessarily 629 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 7: have a history of domestic violence. He described the perpetrator 630 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 7: as someone who managed his emotions and was capable of 631 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 7: controlling himself even under pressure. 632 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 4: I designer comes to kill Zappella soft killer. 633 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 7: It designates him as a soft killer, meaning he was 634 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 7: able to stop a series of murderers at some point 635 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,320 Speaker 7: due to a new element of stability in his life. 636 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 7: And the example they gave was starting a successful new 637 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 7: romantic relationship. 638 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: At the risk of developing tunnel vision about Danielle, I 639 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: have to admit that the FBI profile developed back at 640 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: the beginning of the case is almost a perfect description 641 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: of him. During our interview, he categorically denied his involvement 642 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: several times. We spoke at length about his experience of 643 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: being questioned by police, of how his wife was questioned 644 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: as well, and of having his residences in workplace searched 645 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: multiple times, and of course how all of this affected 646 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: his life negatively. He pointed out repeatedly that there was 647 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: no physical evidence found anywhere in his life, which is 648 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: certainly a very important point to remember. Furthermore, he affirmed 649 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 1: that his DNA was taken and presumably tested. 650 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 3: Of course I took the DNA tests. Once again, I 651 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 3: had nothing to hide, That's the truth. How to believe maybe, 652 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 3: but I had nothing to reproach myself for nothing involving 653 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 3: this case at any rate. Even my poor mother they 654 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 3: shoved a DNA swab in her mouth, and her cleaning lady, 655 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 3: her cousin too. Yes, it was an ordeal. 656 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: The lack of any physical proof pointing to Danielle is 657 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,839 Speaker 1: a a layering weakness in the circumstantial case against him. 658 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: We know that his DNA was taken and compared to 659 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: any samples collected from the trash bags. Unfortunately, we don't 660 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 1: know what DNA the police have, nor anything about possible matches, 661 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: as this information is under lock and key. However, you 662 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: have to presume they have some samples. Given the sheer 663 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: number of physical evidence from thirty seven body parts in 664 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: fifteen different trash bags. The fact that they were able 665 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: to find a single hair, extract a DNA sample from it, 666 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: and then follow up with partial matches like Giselle makes 667 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: me think that he must have been tested against every 668 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: possible sample. Had his DNA been found on any of 669 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: the evidence, or if any of the victims DNA had 670 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: been found in any of his belongings, I'm pretty sure 671 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: he'd be sitting in prison today. Danielle was generous with 672 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: his time, and after about an hour the tension loosened 673 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: a bit. He offered us a drink and we obliged. 674 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: The atmosphere turned friendly, and it was difficult to do this, 675 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: but I had to confront him again about Natalie Goda, 676 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,280 Speaker 1: despite his previous denials. We also had a second source 677 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: recently alleged that Danielle may have spent an evening with 678 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 1: her and another man known to the police as a 679 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: petty criminal. When we brought up this man's name, he 680 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: said he might have known him, but didn't elaborate. When 681 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: Morgan insisted and linked it to Natalie, he relented. 682 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 3: I don't remember going out with him. I recall taking 683 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 3: photos somewhere in the street and we struck up a 684 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 3: conversation and I told him I'd like to take pictures 685 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 3: of naked women, nude shots and all that. We all 686 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 3: have our little quirks, and he told me, don't worry, 687 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,439 Speaker 3: I'll sort you out. He had an easy way of 688 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 3: getting in touch with certain women. And he came back 689 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 3: to my place with a woman. I didn't take any 690 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 3: photos and I didn't see anything because I was completely wasted, 691 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 3: but I know that he had sex with her in 692 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 3: my bed, and that they left quietly the next morning. 693 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 3: I don't think it was Natalie Goda, but I can't 694 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 3: swear it wasn't. 695 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: Finally, we opened a small crack into his denial of 696 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: knowing Natalie Godard. At this point I explained what Madame 697 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: Ganche told me recently about him renting a room with 698 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: Netalie at Le Metropol. I pulled out my phone and 699 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: played the recording for him. 700 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 9: I see. 701 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 6: He came in here and walked straight up to me 702 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:22,919 Speaker 6: and asked for a room. 703 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: Morgan and I watched him very closely as he listened 704 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: to the recording, ring. 705 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 6: A trench coat like people wore at that time, a 706 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 6: greenish trench coat. 707 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: When Madame Ganche said that he was wearing a greenish 708 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: trench coat that night, he crooked his head in what 709 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: looked like confused amusement. While the recording still played. He 710 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: said to himself out loud, it's true I had a 711 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: coat like that. He said he didn't remember renting a 712 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: room with Natalie, but that he also didn't think Madame 713 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: Ganche is a liar, and that if she said it happened, 714 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: it must be true because he did often wear a 715 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: greenish trench coat at the time. Once again, I'm struck 716 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: by his transparency. He could have just stuck with his 717 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: original denial. I mean, we had no idea he wore 718 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: a coat like that. As we wound up to leave, 719 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: he said he's lucky that the cops didn't know some 720 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: of the things we dug up at the time, because 721 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: he surely would have been arrested and charged, And in 722 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: the next breath he said it would have been a 723 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: terrible miscarriage of justice. It makes me think back to 724 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: what started the whole chain of offense that brought us here, 725 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,839 Speaker 1: the original tip about Danielle to the gen Dear Marie. 726 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,760 Speaker 1: If only they would have handled this correctly and passed 727 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: the tip on to their colleagues of the judicial police, 728 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,760 Speaker 1: Danielle wouldn't have been summoned, but rather questioned and searched 729 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: by surprise. It's a tragedy that cuts both ways. On 730 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 1: one hand, police lost the element of surprise and possibly 731 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: the opportunity to find proof of Danielle's guilt. On the 732 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,799 Speaker 1: other hand, Danielle somehow lost the presumption of innocence in 733 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: the minds of the police. They knew he could have 734 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,240 Speaker 1: had time to potentially hide evidence and prepare his story. 735 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 1: Next year will mark thirty years since the first victim 736 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: of the Butcher of Mons disappeared, and the victim's names 737 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: should never be forgotten. They are Carmeline Russeau, Martin Baun, 738 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: Jacqueline Leclaire, Natalie Godard and Bogonia Valencia. They deserve justice 739 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: and their families deserve closure. Throughout this podcast investigation, we've 740 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: rehashed old theories and suspects and brought new information to light. 741 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 1: Some believe that the Butcher of Mons died in prison 742 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. His name Smayojerlik, also known as the 743 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: Bronx Butcher. He was a proven murderer who dismembered his 744 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,319 Speaker 1: girlfriend Mary Beale in nineteen ninety before fleeing to Belgium 745 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,880 Speaker 1: just in time for the Mause murders to begin. Others 746 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: believe the Butcher of Moss is alive and well, despite 747 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 1: the lack of physical proof. Several of the police officers 748 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,880 Speaker 1: in judicial authorities who work the case still believe that 749 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: the man we're calling Danielle is the Butcher of mass 750 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: While there's no DNA match or other physical evidence linking 751 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: into the crimes, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. His recent 752 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: admissions to US only further dial up suspicion despite him 753 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:39,280 Speaker 1: consistently maintaining his innocence. One thing we know for sure 754 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: is that the Butcher of Mals case file contains information 755 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: that has never been released to the families or to 756 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: the public DNA results persons of interest in case, details 757 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,800 Speaker 1: that could clear some suspects and open the door to others. 758 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: I'm proud of the work that Frederic Morgan, Xavier Allan 759 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: and myself have done so far, and we're just scratching 760 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: the surface of what we could do with all of 761 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,799 Speaker 1: the information in hand. We'll continue to work with the 762 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: families and fight for transparency and justice. If you have 763 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 1: any information about the Butcher of Mall's case, please share 764 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,240 Speaker 1: it via the Facebook group page, Facebook dot com slash 765 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:26,879 Speaker 1: groups slash Malls Killings. If and when we uncovered new developments, 766 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: you'll be the first to find out. Please be sure 767 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: to follow the show on your app to stay connected. 768 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: Until then, Stay safe and see you soon. Mercy e 769 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: Abientu Le Montre is a production of Tenderfoot TV and 770 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, hosted, written, and executive produced by me Matt Graves, 771 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: Donald Albright, and Payne Lindsay are executive producers on the 772 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: behalf of Tenderfoot TV, with producer Makeup and vanity set. 773 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Trevor Young are executive producers on the 774 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,760 Speaker 1: behalf of iHeart Podcasts. Original music by Jay Ragsdale, sound 775 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: design and master by Cooper Skinner, Cover design by Byron 776 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: McCoy and Trevor Eiler. La Monstre includes archival audio from 777 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: SONNEMA RTBF Archives. Special thanks to Aren Rosenbaum and the 778 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: team at UTA, the Nord Group, and our active investigation 779 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,920 Speaker 1: team Morgen van Leerberg, Fredrich lah Zervi de Com and 780 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 1: Anna Gardon, as well as the teams at iHeart Podcasts 781 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,760 Speaker 1: and Tenderfoot TV. Find us on social media at Monster 782 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: Underscore pod. For more podcasts like Lea Monstre, search Tenderfoot 783 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: TV in your podcast app, or visit Tenderfoot TV.