Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside
Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day, we bring
Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along
Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. Now. There's been a
Speaker 1: lot of talk about housing lately, from the FED to
Speaker 1: David Rubinstein's interview with John Paulson. I want to bring
Speaker 1: in somebody who runs a closed and fund invest primarily
Speaker 1: and residential whole mortgages. Katherine Hawkins joins US portfolio manager
Speaker 1: and senior vice president Vertical Capital Income Fund. So, Catherine, UM,
Speaker 1: what kind of my main question is what kind of
Speaker 1: risk are you seeing here for the return that you're
Speaker 1: getting or what kind of return are you saying for
Speaker 1: the risk that you're taking? Sure? I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it really depends, you know, on what us A classes
Speaker 1: in the mortgage industry or investing in UM. Single family
Speaker 1: rentals right now are pretty hot. UM. They're producing the
Speaker 1: highest returns really UM, and that's with investors chasing yield
Speaker 1: and kind of this low rate environment. UM, you're still
Speaker 1: looking at a first lean on a residential mortgage. UM,
Speaker 1: so as far as you know the risk profile, UM,
Speaker 1: your first in line. We're in the business of buying
Speaker 1: the whole loans, so we're not investing in any pools
Speaker 1: or tranches. UM. We own the servicing rights as well.
Speaker 1: So UM, that's where we are focusing on really right
Speaker 1: now as a single family that that makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense. And I could see UM single family rentals
Speaker 1: being a great investment when you step back and look
Speaker 1: at the whole market right now, how does it strike you?
Speaker 1: Because it seems like everyone wants to buy a house,
Speaker 1: Prices are going as high as they can and people
Speaker 1: are just paying as much as they can borrow. UM. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know that I necessarily agree with all of
Speaker 1: that we have UM. You know, home ownership is actually
Speaker 1: down since two thousand nine, UM, and we've got we're
Speaker 1: seeing a lot more renters, especially in the younger generations
Speaker 1: and millennial generation. UM. And you're seeing that too in
Speaker 1: a start with covid UM and a surge of people
Speaker 1: wanting more space, not wanting to be in the multifamily housing.
Speaker 1: So you're seeing kind of people moving out of that
Speaker 1: live work play area and looking for single family renter
Speaker 1: rental homes. Catherine talks to us about the credit quality
Speaker 1: of the market that that you play in. What are
Speaker 1: you seeing now in terms of credit quality? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's the big difference between kind of a surge
Speaker 1: right now and and back you know, subprime eras is
Speaker 1: really you're seeing seven hundred and above ficos um. You know,
Speaker 1: the credits guidelines and lending practices are tighter than they
Speaker 1: have been in a while. UM, So we're really we're
Speaker 1: looking at seven D seven fifty ficos um and generally
Speaker 1: like a sixty percent LTV on the property. What about
Speaker 1: the feds involvement here, the asset purchases that they've been making,
Speaker 1: Is it hurting your ability to provide more returns? It's
Speaker 1: really not so. Again, we're buying a whole loan. Um,
Speaker 1: we have a whole loan portfolio. The tapering, you know that,
Speaker 1: I think we're not going to see any significant um
Speaker 1: change in rate due to tapering, um, you know anytime soon.
Speaker 1: I think race will stay the same um, you know,
Speaker 1: And that's it's always going to drive you know, to
Speaker 1: kind of get creative on structure and leverage to find
Speaker 1: some yield and return. So I'm starting to hear I
Speaker 1: think maybe on the radio some of the return of
Speaker 1: zero down mortgages UM. That kind of gets my radar up.
Speaker 1: Having lived through the financial crisis, should we be concerned
Speaker 1: about for two and a half million, Yeah, yeah, UM,
Speaker 1: it concerns me to UM. Luckily, it's not a big
Speaker 1: program UM and very few groups are offering it. And
Speaker 1: then it is different than subprime, you know, than we
Speaker 1: saw kind of the nina UM you know, in subprime
Speaker 1: programs that were out there. The credit um is a
Speaker 1: lot higher. I think it's a seven sixty minimum credit
Speaker 1: limit to these, and it is basically an so you're
Speaker 1: really financing your down payment on those UM. One of
Speaker 1: the biggest differences that I take a little bit of
Speaker 1: comfort in is that these are fixed rate loans UM.
Speaker 1: They do not have a balloon payment uh and so
Speaker 1: there's not going to be any kind of or a
Speaker 1: pre payment penalty for that matter, and so there's not
Speaker 1: going to be a really a big payment shocked to
Speaker 1: any of the borrowers. I think it really weeds out
Speaker 1: some of the borrowers that are trying to get in
Speaker 1: in the beginning. What do you think about the way
Speaker 1: the fund has traded on the n Y s C.
Speaker 1: I mean, UM, it's obviously you don't expect to see
Speaker 1: much volatility in this kind of fund, and yet even
Speaker 1: with the pandemic you saw big drop. People took advantage
Speaker 1: of it quickly and its snapped almost back, but it's
Speaker 1: still it's got yet to come back to the two levels.
Speaker 1: That's right. We did see a pretty big drop in
Speaker 1: the stock price with UM the onset of COVID, which
Speaker 1: I think was kind of in line with all markets
Speaker 1: really in general. UM. And you know, the the volatility
Speaker 1: in our fund is that we're just it's not a
Speaker 1: big market share, right, so we've got a few and
Speaker 1: but UM institutional investors that trade in and trade out.
Speaker 1: It's really more of a long term play. What's the
Speaker 1: concerning your market, Catherine? Thirty seconds left here? Uh, if
Speaker 1: rates will in fact start to rise here, you know,
Speaker 1: for us, we're buy and hold, so we'd redeploy any
Speaker 1: capital that you know, we get back and remit. UM.
Speaker 1: We're starting to see a slowdown and re fis, but
Speaker 1: it's too early related to tell if that was just
Speaker 1: kind of a come down as the summer season. Um,
Speaker 1: and if that will really continue. Um, but really for
Speaker 1: us slow down and refisum real red just redeployed capital,
Speaker 1: you know, in the current rate environment. All right, Catherine,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Katherine Hawkins, portfolio
Speaker 1: manager and Signior vice president of Vertical Capital Income Fund
Speaker 1: UH close and fund that invests primarily in residential whole
Speaker 1: mortgage loans and whole loan secured by deeds of trust. UH.
Speaker 1: The investment objective there is to seek income and for
Speaker 1: a lot of investors looking at a you know, one
Speaker 1: point three percent ten year yield, there is a need
Speaker 1: for income. There is a need for yield in this market,
Speaker 1: and clearly the mortage market is one place of interest.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Honors. Harrison joins us right now, chief
Speaker 1: investment Officer of Global Fixed Income at NOEU VENE. They
Speaker 1: have one point to trillion dollars of assets firm wide
Speaker 1: and are based out of gorgeous Charlotte, North Carolina. UM
Speaker 1: and anders this is you know, obviously it's a personal
Speaker 1: issue for me COVID and what's happening in terms of
Speaker 1: travel restrictions, but it's got to affect um, the companies
Speaker 1: that you cover, as well as uh, you know, the
Speaker 1: the entire global economy. When you don't allow Americans to
Speaker 1: fly into Europe, it becomes a problem on so many levels. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Yeah, No, certainly, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: a key the area that we were paying attention to. UM. Certainly,
Speaker 1: the trends ofthing concerning and the reopening kind of type
Speaker 1: uh trend that we've been seeing not just here in
Speaker 1: the US but also globally is certainly could could become impacted.
Speaker 1: And as you said, if if Europe starts becoming more
Speaker 1: strict on you know, uh, you know, a scissors or
Speaker 1: visitors in general, that certainly can have you know, both
Speaker 1: an economic impact and behavioral impact as well. But I
Speaker 1: would say, and when we take a quick step back
Speaker 1: year of late the economic activity at least in the
Speaker 1: US has not been quite as much affected on this
Speaker 1: latest wave on the on the delta side as we've
Speaker 1: seen in the past, and the high frequency data has
Speaker 1: has sort of been showing quite minimal impact of consuming
Speaker 1: consuming behavior so far, that could certainly change. And certainly
Speaker 1: we're keeping an eye on return to school and how
Speaker 1: that's going and even if they were delays to returning
Speaker 1: to the office. But at this point, so far that again,
Speaker 1: the high frequency data seems to be holding up quite well.
Speaker 1: Certainly we're keeping an eye on on case counts and
Speaker 1: hospitalizations around on around the US and around the world,
Speaker 1: where at least now we're seeing some of these desolation
Speaker 1: in the latest numbers. Not to say that we're out
Speaker 1: of the woods, far from it, but um, we're certainly
Speaker 1: monitoring this risk. But at this point COVID has not
Speaker 1: had a whole lot of impact on the fixed income
Speaker 1: side of things at least, so worth monitoring obviously on
Speaker 1: the top of mind for everybody, so that the company's
Speaker 1: wearing less than um, but so far it's necessarily minimal impact.
Speaker 1: We would say, just what was your takeaway from Jackson
Speaker 1: Hole last week? It's that, you know, the the signaling
Speaker 1: factor seems to be pretty good from the FED. What
Speaker 1: was your takeaway? Sure, yeah, I would say we would
Speaker 1: we would probably call it a bit of a non event. Obviously,
Speaker 1: it's felt like there was in line with what the
Speaker 1: market was expecting and kind of hoping for, perhaps a
Speaker 1: little disappointment of not getting more clarity around the actual
Speaker 1: tapering timing. But we actually feel like General Powell handled
Speaker 1: events very well, gave a little more assurance that tapering
Speaker 1: is coming, and we sort of clarified and reinforced that
Speaker 1: that there is a thought process of that likely that
Speaker 1: could start before the end of the year. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, he left himself with a lot of optionality,
Speaker 1: be it looking at some of this additional economic data
Speaker 1: coming up. Obviously jobs numbers on Friday would be quite key,
Speaker 1: and even you know, a better read into what we
Speaker 1: just mentioned about COVID and the delta variant potentially impact.
Speaker 1: So all in all, we we we felt like he
Speaker 1: handled well. I didn't really scoop the markets one way
Speaker 1: or another. Um I think it was kind of interesting
Speaker 1: to see that you had a lot of key speakers
Speaker 1: from from the FED come out in the past week
Speaker 1: or so with sort of a mix of views and
Speaker 1: discussion points. But in the end, I think this reinforced
Speaker 1: our view that you really, really mostly almost exclusively need
Speaker 1: to listen to to Powell or with maybe Clarenda Williams
Speaker 1: and Brainard, and those are the key people that are
Speaker 1: really setting the tone here. So interesting to get to
Speaker 1: take aways from other FED speakers, But ultimately power in
Speaker 1: this core team is what truly matters. Here are they
Speaker 1: are all the Hawks non voters. It's a bit of
Speaker 1: a mix to be fair. And then as you guys
Speaker 1: know it, kind of it's a moving target as well
Speaker 1: as those are moving around. But but the key players
Speaker 1: in our mind is again those kind of four power Clarada,
Speaker 1: William some brain art um. And that's not to say
Speaker 1: that everybody obviously has some influence and have views that
Speaker 1: can can frame things up. But at this point um,
Speaker 1: we cannot view this weekend's message from Powell in particular,
Speaker 1: particularly that it was sort of adubblished tapering message, meaning
Speaker 1: reinforced here what I said that it's on top of
Speaker 1: mind they have kind of the four end of the
Speaker 1: year time frame, but at the same time also reinforced
Speaker 1: that the tapering timing and the interest rate hiking timing
Speaker 1: or in completely supper timetable. So that had been some
Speaker 1: market speculation again part be I think because some of
Speaker 1: the other FED speakers being fairly aggressive and some of
Speaker 1: their sound bites, so there has been some speculation and
Speaker 1: maybe we can start reading into timing of the first
Speaker 1: hike around when tapering would wrap up. But again I
Speaker 1: think Powell came out he said it pretty clearly on
Speaker 1: that that that shouldn't be the case, and he's separating
Speaker 1: those two timetables completely. So again we kind of do
Speaker 1: it as a dobish tapering that message at this point
Speaker 1: and again gives them a lot of flexibility here and
Speaker 1: could easily posse ab bit before rate hikes start. Uh,
Speaker 1: and kind of wrapping up the tabling. All right, Anders,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us as always unders
Speaker 1: person Chief Investment Officer of Global Fix Income at now
Speaker 1: Vene based in Charlotte, North Carolina. As we watch markets
Speaker 1: hit a new time a new all time high at
Speaker 1: least the SMP five after what we saw in Jackson Hole. Um,
Speaker 1: we should talk about what exactly that was pre a
Speaker 1: misrab joins us Managing Director and Global head of Great
Speaker 1: Strategy at t D Securities. Great having you on, Great
Speaker 1: talking to you again. Um, what did you think that was?
Speaker 1: Was that a dovish taper as it was sort of
Speaker 1: referred to on the day. Hi Matt, thanks for having
Speaker 1: me on. Yes, I think we heard not a new
Speaker 1: message from chair Power, but certainly a message that they
Speaker 1: are inching that the fat is inching towards taper, but
Speaker 1: that they don't feel urgency either on the inflation front
Speaker 1: on the labor market front to have to accelerate the base.
Speaker 1: We're also seeing very clear signs from the feather they're
Speaker 1: trying to disentangle um tapering from hiking. I think they're
Speaker 1: trying to prevent a taper tantrum. They've done a fantastic
Speaker 1: job so far. We're three months away potentially from a taper,
Speaker 1: at least in our foecast tapering happens in December, and
Speaker 1: yet the bond market is table, equities continue to go up.
Speaker 1: So I think what the FED is trying to say
Speaker 1: is the corner me strong. The FED is starting to
Speaker 1: take the punch pull away, but they're doing it in
Speaker 1: such a gradual pace that it doesn't threaten the recovery.
Speaker 1: I think that's the message we got on Friday, and
Speaker 1: now I would say it's much more important now what
Speaker 1: happens to the economy and the economic outlook rather than
Speaker 1: the FED reaction function. I think the FED is tried
Speaker 1: hard to clarify that back and holding through other FED messages.
Speaker 1: All right, for yourself, we are to look at the economy,
Speaker 1: presumably labor is a big, big part of that. So
Speaker 1: when we have obviously the jobs before coming up on Friday,
Speaker 1: how do you think the FED is looking at this
Speaker 1: labor market and what do you think they're kind of
Speaker 1: what clues do you think they're looking for? Ye, so
Speaker 1: I think they'd want to see the continued number of
Speaker 1: you know, non farm payroll numbers, so jobs created in
Speaker 1: the economy. I think they'd want to see that continuing
Speaker 1: to grow. We do expect to see that sign, but
Speaker 1: our economists do have a slowing in the pace, a
Speaker 1: pretty significant slowing. We've got four thousand pensylvan for Friday,
Speaker 1: so that is much weaker than close to a million
Speaker 1: that we saw last month. Some of it is a
Speaker 1: seasonal issue, some of it is high frequency data we're
Speaker 1: noticing is showing a deceleration in the job momentum. But
Speaker 1: I think the FED would want to see continued job
Speaker 1: growth plus people returning to the labor force. I think
Speaker 1: that's been a big open question. You know, is there
Speaker 1: a structure shift in the labor market or in our view,
Speaker 1: this is more a function of the fact that we
Speaker 1: have the extended unemployment benefits, or there's just lingering COVID
Speaker 1: fears or the fact that schools won't reopen. I don't
Speaker 1: think you get that sense from this report because this
Speaker 1: is still August report. Really, I would say September and
Speaker 1: October payroll report so released a month later, would be
Speaker 1: more important. On that, you know, structural component of the
Speaker 1: labor market. I think that will give the FED a
Speaker 1: sense of true labor market slack. As long as there
Speaker 1: a slack in the system, I think they want to
Speaker 1: be extremely accommodative. If there's science that people are not
Speaker 1: re entering the labor force, that they've left the labor
Speaker 1: force for good, you know, retirements or people just there's
Speaker 1: skills mismatch, I think then the FED may have to
Speaker 1: accelerate that piece of exit because I will mean beige
Speaker 1: in flame scan and sustainable price inflation will be on,
Speaker 1: you know, will be sooner than they expect. But our
Speaker 1: thought is that people do reent to the labor before.
Speaker 1: So we are looking for a weaker number this Friday,
Speaker 1: and I think that can make the market a little
Speaker 1: bit nervous here if the recovery is derailing a little bit.
Speaker 1: But we expect, you know, over the next couple of
Speaker 1: months numbers to remain strong and that will allow the
Speaker 1: fit to exit gradually. But I think that's really the
Speaker 1: critical one. Well, this is the end of summer. I
Speaker 1: mean you mentioned a high frequency data. We had a
Speaker 1: great story overnight by Steve Matthews and Jill Shaw just
Speaker 1: putting together a ton of charts from the data, and
Speaker 1: the one that caught my eye was um airline travel.
Speaker 1: It's just rolled over at the end of August. But
Speaker 1: you know, to be expected because you did hopefully some
Speaker 1: kind of vacation June July. Um. You know, unless you're
Speaker 1: Amy Morris who hasn't gone on vacations since May. Um.
Speaker 1: What about the beginning of school? Does that? Does back
Speaker 1: to school? You think push that day? The backup is
Speaker 1: back to school. Three more moms and dads to get
Speaker 1: out there and look for a job and obviously get
Speaker 1: one right away. It is back to school. Change the picture. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think, particularly on the labor market front, in terms
Speaker 1: of labor force participation, we do think back to school
Speaker 1: will help because it will free up a lot of
Speaker 1: people to come back and look for jobs. The Jewels
Speaker 1: statu is suggesting the job openings are there, so you know,
Speaker 1: employers have the job requirements out there. The openings are there,
Speaker 1: we just haven't found the people willing to take it. Now,
Speaker 1: the big question is is there a skills mismatch the
Speaker 1: job openings out there versus the people that are re
Speaker 1: entering the labor force. Is there a skills mismatch, which
Speaker 1: is I think more concerning for the FED if that
Speaker 1: does emerge, But I think there's enough jobs looking at
Speaker 1: the Jewels Stata across the spectrum that if people re
Speaker 1: enter the labor force as schools reopen, and I think
Speaker 1: COVID does is a bit of a concern. If we
Speaker 1: continue to see COVID cases rising, that might delay some
Speaker 1: people re entering the labor force. But if we do it,
Speaker 1: spect over the next couple of months, people re entering
Speaker 1: these jobs getting filled, and that's a sign that there
Speaker 1: is underlying labor market slack beyond just what the unemployment
Speaker 1: rate shows. Thirty seconds, Um, I'm looking at the ten
Speaker 1: year here, you know, one point three. It just feels
Speaker 1: like we're range bound here. Is that kind of how
Speaker 1: we're gonna play out the rest of the year, do
Speaker 1: you think? I think in the near term, yes, I
Speaker 1: think we're in a one twenty five to fifty type range.
Speaker 1: We are looking for higher rates by your end because
Speaker 1: by then we think we'll have the evidence that people
Speaker 1: are returning to the to the labor market, that Delta
Speaker 1: maybe delayed the recovery but doesn't derail it, that the
Speaker 1: FED starts to exit, we get more fiscal So by
Speaker 1: year end we think we may be able to break
Speaker 1: out of this range. But in the next few months,
Speaker 1: while we still have questions about the economy and the
Speaker 1: impact of delta, and the FED is being patient, we
Speaker 1: think we stay fairly range bound on on the tenure.
Speaker 1: All right, pray, thank you so much. We appreciate that
Speaker 1: as always pre a Misraah, Manager, Director and Global head
Speaker 1: of rate Strategy at TV Securities. Again a ten year
Speaker 1: trading today about one point three zero percent. Well earlier
Speaker 1: we heard a discussion some tape between John Paulson and
Speaker 1: Mr Rubinstein uh in a discussion about Mr Paulson's view
Speaker 1: of the markets are including crypto, and I want to
Speaker 1: get Shannali Bastic's view on that. Chanale is the Wall
Speaker 1: Street border for Bloomberg News joinings here in our Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Interactive Broker Studios. So, Sally, I know you you saw
Speaker 1: the interview. You saw the comments from John Paulson. What's
Speaker 1: your takeaway there? Well, a few things. I covered Paulson
Speaker 1: very very closely when he was working with Carl Icon
Speaker 1: as an activist investor against a i G. It's like,
Speaker 1: since two thousand and eight, everybody was waiting for John
Speaker 1: Paulson's next big short, and we never really saw it.
Speaker 1: But this is a very rare interview. He doesn't do
Speaker 1: much public speaking at all. I've tried to doorstop him
Speaker 1: personally at E C n Y conferences, and so it
Speaker 1: is a rare kind of view into his world. One
Speaker 1: of my favorite things he told David Rubinstein, though, is
Speaker 1: that he didn't really love managing money for other people.
Speaker 1: Remember now he runs his own money. It's billions of dollars.
Speaker 1: But I thought I totally agree. I thought, um, it
Speaker 1: was super fascinating, especially for those of us who you know,
Speaker 1: lived through and covered the financial crisis or invested through
Speaker 1: it for our listeners. Um, so fascinating to hear from
Speaker 1: John Paulson. I did think that if you're a crypto investor,
Speaker 1: you probably you couldn't you couldn't care any less what
Speaker 1: he thinks about bitcoin, right, And he also hasn't made
Speaker 1: any big bets um other than gold and steinway that
Speaker 1: I know of. Is that wrong, Nale? Since since the
Speaker 1: Big Short? Well, remember I had said I covered the
Speaker 1: A G investment and so that was certainly a big
Speaker 1: deal when that was happening. But to your point, no,
Speaker 1: not like not like what he had done during two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight. Nothing, nothing like that. And so you know,
Speaker 1: John Paulson, who is he to a new generation? That's
Speaker 1: a great question to me because and what can you
Speaker 1: learn from what he's done? I think the reason I'm
Speaker 1: so interested in what he said about investing is that
Speaker 1: he said he didn't really like the business of business.
Speaker 1: And so can you make more money just by yourself
Speaker 1: day trading crypto and not working at a big investment
Speaker 1: fund or is investing the business of it still a
Speaker 1: good business? Well, I think that's a great takeaway, because,
Speaker 1: first of all, no one can ever reduce the enormity
Speaker 1: of what Paulson did. I mean, I remember when the
Speaker 1: Big Short came out, I expected it to be about Paulson, um,
Speaker 1: you know, and it turned out to be about some
Speaker 1: other players making similar bets. But I think even more
Speaker 1: fascinating was the way John Paulson went about making his bet.
Speaker 1: The people that he enlisted, they were kind of uh
Speaker 1: lone wolves or people who were, you know, maybe very
Speaker 1: smart and wouldn't necessarily need to be courting clients or
Speaker 1: going on UM conference calls or helping other people deal
Speaker 1: tax issues. I mean, this was this is about making
Speaker 1: a big bet yourself and for your group, right, and
Speaker 1: not really about Remember when he was starting out in
Speaker 1: the hedge fund world, hedge funds were not what they
Speaker 1: were today, right, It was a nascent industry, which is
Speaker 1: why what he said reminds me so much of crypto guys.
Speaker 1: There's no day that went back through the last two years,
Speaker 1: almost now, the last eighteen months where I wasn't looking
Speaker 1: for the new John Paulson, where I wasn't saying who
Speaker 1: was making money off of this crisis that we've been
Speaker 1: living through. Now, many different players, some of the same, right,
Speaker 1: There are a lot of distress names, Apollo, oak Tree,
Speaker 1: even Scott Minored at Guggenheim that made big money last
Speaker 1: year just by betting on bonds at their lowest right
Speaker 1: by the point hundreds of millions. But but there has
Speaker 1: not been what John Paulson tells David Rubinstein an ace
Speaker 1: metrical trade. Where can you be Yeah, you know, and
Speaker 1: it was really what he's saying, really, what can you
Speaker 1: take that is long lasting investing advice? He said something
Speaker 1: that people have told David now a few times. Don't
Speaker 1: invest in things you don't know about, right, no about
Speaker 1: what you're investing. And people say that about crypto too.
Speaker 1: If you're going to dive into salan, don't know what
Speaker 1: it is. But also looking for asymmetrical trades, how how
Speaker 1: rare that is to find something where you wouldn't lose
Speaker 1: as much money on the downside. Yeah, it's interesting when
Speaker 1: you hear people of the generation John Paulson talk about
Speaker 1: crypto the way they do it and old guys. I
Speaker 1: want to remind you he's not really very he's only
Speaker 1: sixty five. I think in the context of crypto, that
Speaker 1: feels to me. It feels to me a lot of
Speaker 1: those investors may not necessarily get it if you will,
Speaker 1: and maybe not necessarily want to put in the time
Speaker 1: to develop a call on it. Um. That's kind of
Speaker 1: a theme I think I hear from some of these folks.
Speaker 1: As you know, I was driving the Pacific Coast Highway
Speaker 1: all of last week listening to five podcast. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: a total nerd listening to the parlance of the new
Speaker 1: generation of finance. I just want to know about the
Speaker 1: pc H. How was that. That's like a lifelong dream
Speaker 1: of mine that I've never accomplished. I highly best. I
Speaker 1: traveled once a month that I'm telling you, that was
Speaker 1: the best that I had. Wow, and she got spent
Speaker 1: some time in lovely Carmel, California. I did. I did.
Speaker 1: Listening to d FI podcast, Well, I know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I imagine doing in that trip in like um convertible Mustang.
Speaker 1: What were you driving? A Ford Fusion rented so you're
Speaker 1: able to get him in a car? Yes, we were able.
Speaker 1: It was hard. I would recommend doing it way in advance.
Speaker 1: And honestly, it was very empty. San Francisco was pretty empty.
Speaker 1: That's what I hear. Yeah, by the end of it.
Speaker 1: But we're not here to talk about San Francisco fell
Speaker 1: sometimes we sometimes we diverge a little bit, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it's very cool that. I mean, I agree
Speaker 1: that the Paul's interview is fascinating. I was psyched to
Speaker 1: watch it, and there were a couple of really interesting
Speaker 1: threads to pull from it, and it's great to hear
Speaker 1: our Wall Street reporters take. But I also want to
Speaker 1: hear her take on the Pacific Coast Highway because that's
Speaker 1: just awesome. Greg Jarrett apparently did it an mg A
Speaker 1: coup of seven n G A coup, which is an
Speaker 1: awesome car to do that trip. I'll do it better
Speaker 1: next time for you. Let's what you can do with Greg.
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