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Speaker 1: Welcome to Hod of Money. I'm Joel and I am

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Speaker 1: Matt and today we're discussing The Good Enough Job with

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Speaker 1: Simone stoles Off.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to start today's episode a little differently.

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Speaker 2: Let's start out with a quote. Work will always be work.

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Speaker 2: Some people work doing what they love. Other people work

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Speaker 2: so that they can do what they love when they

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Speaker 2: are not working. Neither is more noble. This is a

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Speaker 2: quote from Simone stoles Off's new book, The Good Enough Job,

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Speaker 2: that is set to publish here in a couple of weeks,

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Speaker 2: and it's actually made by Simone's favorite writer who happens

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Speaker 2: to be a poet. And after going through this book,

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Speaker 2: I don't think anything else we could say could actually

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Speaker 2: encapsulate Simo's book any better. But we are going to

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Speaker 2: discuss a number of themes from the book, how to

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Speaker 2: basically diversify your identity. We're gonna talk about the similarities

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Speaker 2: between work and religion, or maybe the dissimilarities, uh, the

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Speaker 2: false promise of chasing after status. All of this we're

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Speaker 2: going to discuss today and more. Simone stoles Off, thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for joining us on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Guys, we're glad to have you and some of your

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Speaker 1: closest friends call you Simo, So we assume just based

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Speaker 1: on our five minute chat beforehand, we can we're allowed

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Speaker 1: to call you.

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Speaker 2: That is that we switching to sea.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, it's kind of like my cocktail party line.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like Simo, It's like Nemo with an S.

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Speaker 4: You know, awesome.

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Speaker 1: So we'll probably refer to you that way through a

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Speaker 1: lot of this episode. But Simo, we're excited to chat

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Speaker 1: with you. And the first question we ask every guest

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Speaker 1: who comes on the show is what is their craft

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Speaker 1: beer equivalent? And what we mean by that is, while

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Speaker 1: you're saving, investing diligently for the future, what is it

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Speaker 1: that you proactively spend money on that some people might

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Speaker 1: think is a little weird or you're just thrilled to

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Speaker 1: spend money in a certain way while you're still handling money.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so my craft beer equivalent isn't the most

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Speaker 3: expensive purchase. It might pile up if you do it

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Speaker 3: as frequently as I do. But I am a chocolate

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Speaker 3: chip cookie fiend. I actually need a chocolate chip cookie

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Speaker 3: every single day for four years of college. It's like

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Speaker 3: become a little bit of like it's like my brand now,

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Speaker 3: you know, like my friends like it's like the cookie guy.

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Speaker 3: But I still love them, you know, And I like

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Speaker 3: I'm not much of like a chocolate chip cookie snob,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm a kind of equal opportunist, from the

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Speaker 3: famous amos to the artisanal like eight dollars cookie that

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Speaker 3: I bought the other day.

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Speaker 4: Are you baking your own ever?

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Speaker 3: Sometimes? Yeah, I don't know. I feel like cookies are

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Speaker 3: kind of like Beatles songs, Like even the not great

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Speaker 3: ones are still like pretty good.

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Speaker 4: Feel that way.

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Speaker 2: If you're mentioning famous amos in the same as like

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Speaker 2: an eight dollars let me come on, who can who's

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Speaker 2: actually putting those things down? But I guess you do

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Speaker 2: not discriminate one.

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Speaker 4: Do you ever go off brand like the fake chips

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Speaker 4: a hole or something like that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll do it.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I'm just like easily pleased. It's maybe not best for

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Speaker 3: like my cultural high brownness, but I like enjoy cookies

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Speaker 3: in all of their forms.

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Speaker 4: No, I love it. Okay.

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Speaker 2: One last question about the cookies. Do you have a

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Speaker 2: favorite for lack of better words, adjunct, Like, what's something

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Speaker 2: that you like in chocolate chip cookies that may not

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Speaker 2: necessarily be traditional.

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Speaker 4: And if you say, raisins this interviews over.

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Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I'm a purist. I think I my like

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Speaker 3: hotter take literally is that. I like under baked cookies.

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Speaker 3: I like cookies that still feel like a little gooey

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Speaker 3: in the middle, and like the closer that you can

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Speaker 3: get to the cookie dough spectrum without giving yourself sammonilla.

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Speaker 2: No, I like that respect. Yeah, the ability to fold

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Speaker 2: a cookie in half is better than.

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Speaker 3: You're getting to like my Italian roots.

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Speaker 2: Way, yes, yeah, yeah, I love it all right. That's

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Speaker 2: something I loves to have into your book on it.

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Speaker 2: Like you, So you say that you're recovering workest in

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Speaker 2: the intro it kind of it almost feels like an

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Speaker 2: AA introduction introduction honestly, But talk to us about maybe

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Speaker 2: when it dawned on you that you were overvaluing the

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Speaker 2: role of work in your own life, Like, what is

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Speaker 2: it that caused you to reevaluate that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, you know, I think we're all about the

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Speaker 3: same age, kind of smack in the middle of the

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Speaker 3: millennial generation. And I think I was raised on certain scripts.

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Speaker 3: You know, I grew up with lots of opportunity, which

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Speaker 3: I'm grateful for, and also this mentality of you know,

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Speaker 3: I could sort of do whatever I wanted, and it

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Speaker 3: was just a matter of figuring out what particular career

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Speaker 3: path or what particular job was the best reflection of

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Speaker 3: my unique passion and personality. And I spent my twenties

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Speaker 3: really playing goldilocks with different jobs. I worked in tech

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Speaker 3: for a few years, and I worked in food for

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Speaker 3: a few years, and I worked in journalism for a

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Speaker 3: few years. And it really came to ahead at a

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Speaker 3: moment when I was choosing between these two particular jobs.

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Speaker 3: One was to be a staff writer at a digital

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Speaker 3: magazine and the other was to be a designer at

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Speaker 3: this global design agency. And on one hand, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: agony is me, you know, like the plight of deciding

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Speaker 3: between two attractive job offers. But you know, maybe you

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Speaker 3: guys or some of your listeners have been in a

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Speaker 3: similar crossroads before, you know. For me, I really didn't

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Speaker 3: feel like I was choosing between two jobs as much

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Speaker 3: as I was choosing between two versions of me. And

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Speaker 3: this sort of like career and decision moment. I was

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Speaker 3: probably twenty eight or twenty nine really threw me for

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Speaker 3: an existential loop, and I was wondering, sort of, how

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Speaker 3: did my identity become so entwined with what I did

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Speaker 3: for work, what I did to make money? And that

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Speaker 3: was sort of the first kernel that led to what

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Speaker 3: became the research project that eventually became the book.

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Speaker 1: Nice Well, and yeah, I think probably, Well, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe some people have not had that, and they're just

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Speaker 1: nose to the grindstone and they haven't had that moment

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Speaker 1: of reflection. Hopefully this discussion like that we're going to

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Speaker 1: have today pushes people to have a little bit of

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Speaker 1: that at least start to initiate the thought process. Am

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Speaker 1: I putting too much effort or identity into my work?

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Speaker 1: But can you give us a brief history lesson about

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Speaker 1: how we got to the point where careers became so

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Speaker 1: central to our identity, to our existence. It seems like

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Speaker 1: it didn't used to be that way, and now careers

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Speaker 1: are kind of all defining in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there's many different possible ways to answer

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Speaker 3: this question. And maybe if your last name is Miller,

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Speaker 3: you probably condect to differ that. You know, identity and

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Speaker 3: careers have been tied together for a long time. But

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Speaker 3: I think there is something that is uniquely American about this,

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Speaker 3: and also something that is unique to the last sort

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Speaker 3: of fifty years or so, and so I think there

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Speaker 3: are kind of economic arguments. There's political arguments, there are

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Speaker 3: social arguments, cultural arguments. The historical one is just the

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Speaker 3: fact that the Protestant work ethic and capitalism we're really

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Speaker 3: the two strands that entwine to form our country's DNA.

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Speaker 3: From the beginning, being American was synonymous with your ability

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Speaker 3: to be a productive member of society or to be

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Speaker 3: able to work hard. There's also kind of economic arguments.

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Speaker 3: I think this really differs depending on what side of

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Speaker 3: the income spectrum you're looking at. On the sort of

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Speaker 3: lower earning side, wages have been stagnant for the last

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Speaker 3: forty or fifty years, which means that people have had

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Speaker 3: to work more just to earn the same money to

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Speaker 3: buy the same loaf of bread. Has driven a lot

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Speaker 3: of people to work long hours. On the other side,

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Speaker 3: there's the tax structure of our country and the way

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Speaker 3: that employment and healthcare are often tied together that make

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Speaker 3: the consequences of losing work so dire, and also the

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Speaker 3: ability to consolidate wealth with the more hours that you

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Speaker 3: work greater abilities to do so. The argument I really

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Speaker 3: focus on in the book is the sort of subjective

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Speaker 3: or the cultural value that Americans place on their jobs.

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Speaker 3: You know, we live in a country that treats CEOs

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Speaker 3: like celebrities, and we plaster always do what you love

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Speaker 3: on the walls of our co working in space. We

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Speaker 3: parade around our job titles and small talk conversation and

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Speaker 3: on our social media profiles, and there is really this

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Speaker 3: sense that.

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Speaker 4: You are what you do.

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Speaker 3: And I think that is unique to a certain extent

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Speaker 3: to this age that we're in right now. We're work

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Speaker 3: is very much in vogue, or maybe in the last

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Speaker 3: three or so years, with the pandemic hotly contested about

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Speaker 3: its role in our lives.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, and you say it's becoming something that is

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Speaker 2: churning out to be more global, Like it's essentially become

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Speaker 2: an American export that other countries are now starting to

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Speaker 2: follow in our footsteps, sort of like Levi's it's like,

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Speaker 2: not only do you get the genes, but you also

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Speaker 2: get our ridiculous work ethic.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, I think the way that I

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Speaker 3: frame it is like I think workism, which is a

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Speaker 3: term that was originally coined by the journalist Derek Thompson

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Speaker 3: in the Atlantic. It's the idea of like treating work

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Speaker 3: akin to a religious identity. Yeah, the thing that you

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Speaker 3: look to is just a paycheck, but also for totally

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Speaker 3: a community, a sense of self worth, a sense of

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Speaker 3: purpose in your life. I think it's primarily a phenomenon

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Speaker 3: that is most prevalent among people that have a certain

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Speaker 3: level of privilege, you know, college educated Americans, But that

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean that it exists. It doesn't exist in other countries,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't exist in other sort of class strata. It

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Speaker 3: just is particularly pronounced for people that have truthfully the

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Speaker 3: privilege to be able to choose what they want to do.

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Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah, absolutely, And you kind of just touched on

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Speaker 2: something I was going to follow up there with, which

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Speaker 2: was religion, because you see that one of the problems

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Speaker 2: is that more folks are trying to get the meaning

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Speaker 2: out of their job that they used to find in religion.

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Speaker 2: And so is a solution Should we just go to synagogue?

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Speaker 2: Should we just go to church more? Does that solve

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Speaker 2: all of our problems? What is the I guess the

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Speaker 2: problem or the difficulty in finding or putting our faith

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Speaker 2: within our jobs, within our careers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the data on the religiosity of Americans

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Speaker 3: is pretty interesting. You know, if you look back to

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Speaker 3: the height of religiosity in the US and sort of

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Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties, it's something like six or seven percent

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Speaker 3: of Americans weren't religious, and everyone else had a pretty

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Speaker 3: strong association with an organized religion. And there's been this

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Speaker 3: precipitous decline in the past forty years where today nearly

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Speaker 3: one in three, almost in the latest data, Americans don't

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Speaker 3: have a particular religious affiliation, whether they're agnostic or atheist,

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Speaker 3: or just don't believe in anything in particular. And so,

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Speaker 3: you know, when you think about the role that religion

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Speaker 3: plays in people's lives, it is obviously something to believe in,

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Speaker 3: a potential path to transcendence, but it's also a primary community.

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Speaker 3: It's a primary source of your identity. And so with

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Speaker 3: the decline of these organized religions, the need for belonging

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Speaker 3: and for purpose still remains. And the argument that they

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Speaker 3: make in the book is that work for many people

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Speaker 3: has taken on that role. But the problem is that

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Speaker 3: that's not necessarily a burden our jobs are designed to bear.

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Speaker 3: You know, this is particularly visible in the past few

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Speaker 3: years with the pandemic. You know, some people, whether it

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Speaker 3: was due to layoffs or furloughs, lost their jobs, you know,

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Speaker 3: and if your work is your primary source of identity

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Speaker 3: and meaning and you lose it, what's left well.

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Speaker 1: And even for folks who didn't lose their job, maybe

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Speaker 1: they started working from home and that connection to the

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Speaker 1: culture and to the community of work was sever and

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Speaker 1: so that kind of changed their relationship how they interacted

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Speaker 1: with their work as well. So it was seen more

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Speaker 1: as like a I do this for a paycheck when

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Speaker 1: I can, and it lost if it's all encompassing nature.

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Speaker 1: You think that's true too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. I mean I think regardless of what type

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Speaker 3: of work, you had changed in some way in the

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Speaker 3: past three years. And you know, I started reporting this

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Speaker 3: book before the pandemic. I definitely did not anticipate a

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Speaker 3: global pandemic helping everyone sort of reconsider their relationship to

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Speaker 3: their jobs. But it was this huge wake up call

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Speaker 3: I think for everyone. You know, their job wasn't exactly

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Speaker 3: what it used to be. And I think people who

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Speaker 3: were maybe over indexed and looking to work as a

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Speaker 3: source of identity and meaning in their life. We're left

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Speaker 3: for a rude awakening, you know. And the main sort

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Speaker 3: of argument that I make in the book, when it

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Speaker 3: gets into a little bit more of an editorial section,

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Speaker 3: is about what you said about the value of diversifying

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Speaker 3: your identity and sources of meaning beyond just what you

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Speaker 3: do for work. You know, this isn't just to protect

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Speaker 3: in the case that you get laid off. But I

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Speaker 3: think one of the risks of a work centric existence

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Speaker 3: is that we can neglect other parts of who we are.

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Speaker 1: And one other thing I want to follow by I

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Speaker 1: mentioned how there is a work from home class. I

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Speaker 1: feel like the pandemic kind of it created a dichotomy, right,

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Speaker 1: and we saw other people incredibly overworked and theirship their

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Speaker 1: job changed in a different way if you worked at

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Speaker 1: a grocery store. My dad, who was stocking shelves in

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Speaker 1: a grocery store at the ripe old age of sixty eight, like,

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Speaker 1: that was a different thing, right than what a lot

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Speaker 1: of other people experienced. A laptop class to work from

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Speaker 1: any work class. And so it really was kind of

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Speaker 1: a tale of two Americans and how they relate to

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Speaker 1: work and everyone was questioning their relationship to work, but

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Speaker 1: for different reasons.

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Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I mean, I love harping on that

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Speaker 3: term essential worker that was thrown around so often during

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Speaker 3: the pandemic. It's like we saw that many of these

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Speaker 3: workers were essential. My partner is an elementary school teacher,

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Speaker 3: you know, and maybe similar to your father. Her workload

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Speaker 3: and the risk that she had to expose herself to

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Speaker 3: increased astronomically over the course of the pandemic. And yet

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Speaker 3: we still haven't necessarily given these workers that we deem

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Speaker 3: essential the protections and the pay and the benefit to

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Speaker 3: ensure that they can keep doing their jobs safely for

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Speaker 3: us all.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned diversifying your identity. Can you share some

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Speaker 2: of the benefits of diversifying your identity? Right, So, when

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Speaker 2: it comes to investing your money, you want to make

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Speaker 2: sure that you don't have all of your eggs in

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Speaker 2: one basket. And essentially, what you're saying here is that

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Speaker 2: we are putting all of our eggs into this basket

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Speaker 2: of career or job title or whatever it is that

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Speaker 2: we find most attractive about our jobs. What are some

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Speaker 2: of the benefits that you found when we take a

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Speaker 2: step back and when we look to some other outlets,

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Speaker 2: some other ways that we are able to find our

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Speaker 2: identity totally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, much as an investor of benefits from

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Speaker 3: diversifying the stocks in their portfolio, I think we two

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Speaker 3: really benefit from diversifying the sources of identity and meaning

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Speaker 3: in our lives. And there's some research to back them up.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's studies about what researchers call developing greater

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Speaker 3: self complexity, or having different self aspects, which essentially means

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Speaker 3: just investing in different parts of ourselves. You know, we're

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Speaker 3: not just workers. We're also siblings and neighbors and citizens

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Speaker 3: and friends and parents, and you know, these identities they

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Speaker 3: need investment, you know. They One of the main reasons

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Speaker 3: or arguments for doing so is that in the case

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Speaker 3: of it doesn't even have to be a layoff, but

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Speaker 3: any sort of bad news in the work realm, when

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Speaker 3: we have a more diversified identity portfolio, it's less likely

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Speaker 3: to spill over into other aspects of our lives. We're

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Speaker 3: more resilient if we have greater self complexity. There's also

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Speaker 3: a semblance not just in the sort of the bare

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Speaker 3: case of something tragic or bad happening but in just

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Speaker 3: the value of being able to give our time and

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Speaker 3: attention into other parts of who we are. It's important

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Speaker 3: to keep in mind that identities are sort of like plants,

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Speaker 3: you know, like they need time and intention in order

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Speaker 3: to grow. And I think part of the risk of

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Speaker 3: living in a life that's so centered around work is

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Speaker 3: that work doesn't just take our best time and often

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Speaker 3: also takes our best energy as well. And so one

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Speaker 3: of the arguments that I ca in the book is

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Speaker 3: that in order to diversify your identity beyond what you

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Speaker 3: do for work, you have to do things other than work,

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Speaker 3: which may seem a little obvious, but you know, for

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Speaker 3: me at least, I can definitely relate to the experience

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Speaker 3: of you know, you go to work, you come home,

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Speaker 3: you're exhausted. All you have the energy to do is

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Speaker 3: sort of turn off your brain and turn on Netflix.

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Speaker 3: And while that can, you know, temporarily be a nice

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Speaker 3: way to recharge or you know, to get lost in

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Speaker 3: another world, if you really want to have other sources

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Speaker 3: of meaning in your life, you need to be actively

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Speaker 3: doing things and in the community, doing things with others,

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Speaker 3: investing in your relationships. And so that's what I advocate.

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Speaker 2: For Yes, it's about just being a well rounded individual.

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Speaker 2: And as you were talking about religion a second ago,

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Speaker 2: it maybe think through how getting laid off from a

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Speaker 2: job that's not a I mean, it's not something that

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Speaker 2: anybody wants to go through, but it's not like it's

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Speaker 2: the equivalent of having your faith taken from you. And

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Speaker 2: so I see that as being another problem with viewing

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Speaker 2: your job. And you know, almost to the same extent

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Speaker 2: that you view religion is that faith is it's such

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Speaker 2: a personal and internal thing and the ability for somebody

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Speaker 2: outside of you to take that away kind of goes

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Speaker 2: counter to I think how a lot of individuals view

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Speaker 2: their faith, how they view their spirituality. And so yeah,

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Speaker 2: for you to show up one day and all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, it's just like, hey, this thing that you've

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Speaker 2: depended on as much as someone would typically depend on

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Speaker 2: their faith, as oh, it's no longer there. That could

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Speaker 2: be incredibly dev state.

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Speaker 1: Even more tenuous connection to our work than we think.

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Speaker 1: And some people who if you put your hope and

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Speaker 1: dreams and faith and future expectations all inside of this

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Speaker 1: one vehicle which is your career, at some point somatic

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Speaker 1: there's a really good chance that someone can take that

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Speaker 1: away from you. It's like a jangu tower and it's

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Speaker 1: like you're down to just like a singular.

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Speaker 4: Block at the bottom.

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Speaker 2: If you were to pull that one thing, it's like

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Speaker 2: everything else just completely falls up ut.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, you guys know the writer David Foster Wallace,

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Speaker 3: he has this very iconic speech, this is Water, and

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Speaker 3: one of the points that he makes is that there's

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Speaker 3: no such thing as not worshiping. We all worship something,

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Speaker 3: either consciously or unconsciously, and whatever you end up worshiping

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Speaker 3: will probably each you alive. You know, worship beauty and

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Speaker 3: you'll feel like you're never beautiful enough. Or worship money

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Speaker 3: and you feel like you never have enough of it.

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Speaker 3: And I think the same is true with work.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's what gets us into these systems where people are,

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Speaker 3: you know, chasing carrots their entire lives and never fully

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Speaker 3: feeling full. You know. It's like you can chase all

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Speaker 3: the next rung on the career ladder, the next title

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Speaker 3: or status or salary band. But unlike these sort of

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Speaker 3: material things of the working world, religion is less easily falsifiable,

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Speaker 3: you know, And I don't think we necessarily have to

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Speaker 3: all find whatever you know, God out there exists for us.

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Speaker 3: That's definitely one means of doing so. But by having

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Speaker 3: other sources of meaning, we're able to just bounce back

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Speaker 3: if say, your manager says something disparaging over the course

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Speaker 3: of the work day. If you can show up as

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Speaker 3: a as a good father that night, or show up

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Speaker 3: as a good third basement for your recreational softball team,

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Speaker 3: or show up as you know, a very present friend

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Speaker 3: to a buddy who is going through something. All of

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Speaker 3: those ide identities can help soften the inevitable bumps we

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Speaker 3: face them along the reative work.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and the places where work falls short.

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Speaker 1: I'm still gunning for that senior podcast host title that

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Speaker 1: Matt has not bestowed any yet, but I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe soon.

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Speaker 2: Two more years.

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Speaker 1: It's two more years ago. I know you've always even

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Speaker 1: hold that like a care in front of me that

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Speaker 1: I could never attain. But we've got more questions we

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Speaker 1: want to get to with you, Cimo. We specially want

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Speaker 1: to talk about the role that passion or fulfillment plays

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Speaker 1: and work like do we need to divorce it completely?

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Speaker 1: And so we'll get to questions on that and maybe

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Speaker 1: some practical suggestions for how to find to start to

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Speaker 1: remove our identity from mostly being centered around our work.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to some of those those questions dot combo

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Speaker 1: right after this.

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Speaker 4: All right, we are back from the.

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Speaker 2: Break talking to Simo stoles Off about the good enough

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Speaker 2: job and Seema talk to us about meaning, talk to

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Speaker 2: us about purpose and work, because it certainly seems.

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Speaker 4: Like that there's this.

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Speaker 2: This push to find like ultimate fulfillment in your career.

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Speaker 2: But how do you think we should think about that role,

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Speaker 2: specifically the role that passion plays in our in our

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Speaker 2: nine to five, Like is the dream job? Is it

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Speaker 2: just a pipe dream at this point?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question, you know. And I think

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Speaker 3: when you like look at the cover of the book

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Speaker 3: or even read the title, you know, the subtitle is

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Speaker 3: Reclaiming Life from Work, you might assume that my argument

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Speaker 3: is some it's like anti work, you know. And this

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Speaker 3: idea of like anti work has become a bit of

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Speaker 3: a meme or trend recently. There's a huge subreddit about

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Speaker 3: anti work, and it's there's a lot of cultural cachet

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Speaker 3: and being able to be like anti capitalist or against

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Speaker 3: the man. And yet I don't think that going full

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Speaker 3: on to that end of the spectrum is necessarily helpful

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Speaker 3: or will be a recipe for fulfillment when it comes

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Speaker 3: to passion, you know, I think I have certainly derived

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Speaker 3: a lot of meaning and purpose and passion from my

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Speaker 3: work myself. But I think, you know, I rely a

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Speaker 3: lot on this chapter of the research of this woman

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Speaker 3: at Michigan State named Aaron Check who wrote this book

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Speaker 3: called The Trouble with Passion, and basically her argument is

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Speaker 3: that not all of us have the same on ramps

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Speaker 3: to be able to translate our passions into our means

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Speaker 3: of making money, and for people who have fewer opportunities,

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Speaker 3: it can actually exacerbate inner quality when we tell everyone

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Speaker 3: to follow their passion, but some people don't have as

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Speaker 3: much access to passion jobs as others. And I think

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Speaker 3: a lot of times, you know, passion can be a

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Speaker 3: stand in for fair compensation or fair pay. There's this

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Speaker 3: concept in the book I talk about that's called vocational AWE,

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Speaker 3: which is the idea that certain industries have a sort

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Speaker 3: of perceived righteousness, like a halo effect. I'm thinking about

439
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 3: things like healthcare workers, or like teachers, or people that

440
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 3: work in the nonprofit sector, and it was a concept

441
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 3: that was originally coined by this librarian, this woman named

442
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 3: Fobasi Utar, and she observed how this sort of rhetoric

443
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 3: around follow your passion or you know, vocational awe, like

444
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 3: the idea that you should be in it for something

445
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 3: more than the money, can actually cover up a lot

446
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 3: of the malpractice and exploitation that exists within all of

447
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 3: these different fields. You know, I've this mentor this woman

448
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 3: and Helen Peterson, and she says, most of the time

449
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 3: all passion can get you is the excuse to be

450
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 3: paid very little. And so you know, it's a fine balance. Obviously,

451
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: you know, we work more than we do just about

452
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 3: anything else in our life, and you know how we

453
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 3: spend those hours matter. But I think being clear headed

454
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 3: about the fact that work is first and foremost an

455
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 3: economic contract. It's an exchange of your time and your

456
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 3: labor for money, the better it can certainly be more

457
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 3: than those things. But I think the more sort of

458
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 3: clear headed we can be about its fundamental purpose, the

459
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 3: better off will be.

460
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 4: Yeah. I like that.

461
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 1: Okay, you talked too about how like stagnating wages, and

462
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: we've seen a little bit of that change recently. We've

463
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: seen kind of especially at the lower end of the

464
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 1: income spectrum, we've seen higher paces in wage growth, still

465
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: not making up for lots of decades where that wasn't happening.

466
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 1: But I guess so there is that element where for

467
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: a lot of folks pay hasn't kept up and so

468
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: having to work more hours just to make ends meet

469
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: is a thing for sure. But I guess I want

470
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: to ask you too, there's a lot of people Matt

471
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: and I talk about this all the time. We see

472
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: stats where people make two hundred k a year and

473
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: they're still living paycheck to paycheck. So often for a

474
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: lot of people it's not just that they're not getting

475
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: paid enough. So do you think, not being a personal

476
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: finance nerd to the extead of Matt and I like

477
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: our poor savings habits in that intense reliance on that

478
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: income from our day job, does that make matters worse

479
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: that we are basically we tied the hip to our

480
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: employer that we don't have enough margin where if we

481
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: did lose our job or if we wanted to pursue

482
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: something else, that we don't really have that ability totally.

483
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think there's sort of like two

484
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 3: parts to the question. There's one is like the what

485
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 3: we've observed in the pandemic, where the just a monochrome

486
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 3: of kind of social support from the government allowed a

487
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 3: lot of people to leave jobs that weren't good enough

488
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 3: for them. And so, you know, I think one of

489
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 3: the misconceptions about the Great Resignation was that it was

490
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 3: just people kind of dropping out of the labor force

491
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: and sitting on their couch all day, Whereas an actuality,

492
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 3: the majority of people that left jobs during the heart

493
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 3: of the pandemic actually just left to find better jobs.

494
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 3: So I think that's really important to consider. It's like,

495
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 3: when we feel like there is a little bit of

496
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 3: government support or just a less fraid social safety net,

497
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 3: people feel more empowered or define work that works better

498
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 3: for them. And then there's kind of the second half

499
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: of your question, which is, you know, thinking about people

500
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 3: that we're making a lot of money that might not

501
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 3: have very much slack and their budget or their spending habits.

502
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 3: And I think a lot of that comes back to

503
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 3: sort of the consumerism that is so prevalent in America

504
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: and the pressure to always be spending and keeping up

505
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 3: with the joneses and having the nice new thing and

506
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: sort of foregoing some of the long term benefits that

507
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 3: we can get from saving or having just you know,

508
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 3: more resiliency built into your budget versus the sort of

509
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 3: short term rash of getting something that's shiny and new consumerism.

510
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: I'm not sure what you're talking about. I haven't seen

511
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 4: that a playoffs country.

512
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 2: We talk about that all the time here on the

513
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 2: show Cimo. You're discussing how it's like, is it a

514
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: it's like a chicken or egg situation where we are

515
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: spending therefore we have to earn more, or is it, oh,

516
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: we don't have the time to dedicate towards developing our

517
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: identity outside of work because we are working so much.

518
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 2: It's this sort of doom loop that we find ourselves

519
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: stuck in. And I think that's definitely true when it

520
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: comes to our personal finances and how that's intertwined.

521
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 4: With our careers as well.

522
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 2: One of the other myths that you tackle that you

523
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: address is that our coworkers, how we should not necessarily

524
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: view them as family. Oftentimes folks just they believe that line.

525
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: And I'll talk into a buddy of mind, and he's

526
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: after getting laid off. He he highlighted the fact that, man,

527
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: you know, this is a line that I believed. It's

528
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 2: I'm a manager myself. We live by this line. But

529
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: when the time comes and you get laid off, you

530
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 2: quickly realize that your family left. Coworkers are not your family.

531
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: Why is that such a problem.

532
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know, the desire to form close

533
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 3: bonds at work isn't misguided, and there have been lots

534
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 3: of studies to back this up. People that have close

535
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 3: friends at work tend to be more fulfilled by the job,

536
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 3: they tend to stay at jobs longer, and so it

537
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 3: should come as no surprise that companies and especially leaders

538
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 3: sometimes use the rhetoric of family and the sort of

539
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 3: bonds that bind us together to try and inspire employees

540
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 3: to work for the cause or to stay at their

541
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 3: companies for longer. And I think, similar to your friend,

542
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 3: so many people have seen over the past two years,

543
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 3: how that rhetoric can be very shallow. You know, you

544
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 3: can't fire someone from your company. But even if it

545
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: was true that your workplace could be like your family,

546
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that's something that we should aspire to.

547
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: You know, most of the families that I know are

548
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,479
Speaker 3: pretty dysfunctional in one way or another, you know, And

549
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 3: so in some ways the question about like workplace as

550
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: family is sort of just a semantic distinction and just

551
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 3: about this idea of like how much of our relationship

552
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: should be center in the workplace. And you know, I

553
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: think the argument that I make is like, it's not

554
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: necessarily a problem to have friends at work, But I

555
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: think if your workplace is your sole source of community,

556
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: that is a narrow platform to balance on. You're prone

557
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 3: to be blown over by a strong gust of wind,

558
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: whether that is getting laid off, or your quote unquote

559
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 3: family member having to give you some tough love in

560
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 3: the sake of further in the business goals, or even

561
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: just the sort of negative consequences of the sort of

562
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 3: in groups and the clicks that can form at work.

563
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 3: There's been research that has found that in more familial workplaces,

564
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 3: workers are less likely to speak up about wrongdoing, They're

565
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 3: less likely to be transparent, they're less likely to make

566
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: decisions based on sound business analysis and rigor as opposed

567
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: to just sort of like trusting what your buddy says.

568
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 3: And so, you know, there are actual material consequences of

569
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 3: relying too much on social ties as opposed to fundamentally

570
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 3: what a professional relationship should be, which is based on

571
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: your material goals for the company.

572
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: So it makes me think of the last real job

573
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: I had. Fortunately, I don't have a real job now,

574
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: I just podcast, but the last real job I had,

575
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: there was this thing where once a month they would

576
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: give one hundred dollars awards to like ten different people

577
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: in the company for going above and beyond and for

578
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: doing something just of incredible dedication to the company and

579
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: to the company's efforts. And the people who got rewarded

580
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: is like literally just I mean a hundred bucks. I'm

581
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: not saying a hundred bucks is nothing, but it was

582
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: one hundred bucks. And it was oftentimes somebody who came

583
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: in on the weekend, who like left their family in

584
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: the lurch to come take care of something at work.

585
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm making it my personal goal

586
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: to never win this award because it felt like that

587
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: was asking too much, creating a tie that it didn't

588
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: deserve that sort of stranglehold over my life. And I

589
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: could tell so many people prided themselves I'm being able

590
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: to win this one hundred dollars recognition in front of

591
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: their coworker sort of thing, and I had just the

592
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: opposite stance, and I was like, this is absurd, and

593
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: there's no way I ever want to be found up

594
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: on that podium accepting the award, because it will have

595
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: meant that I dropped obligations and duties that matter a

596
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: whole lot to me. So I guess that's where I

597
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: want to ask, too, how do we find create a

598
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: proper attachment to work or we are working hard, where

599
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: we're producing good work, where we are a part of

600
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: the organization in a meaningful way without going above and beyond.

601
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: We don't want to be lackadaisa whole, but we also

602
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: don't want to over exert ourselves and basically inhibit the

603
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: ability for those other identity forming necessities to take place.

604
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I love the question. It reminds me

605
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 3: of office space. Where to for anistans wearing the vest

606
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 3: with like flare at the.

607
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: Restaurant, pieces of flair exactly.

608
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, she's wearing what the expectation was set,

609
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 3: but like the idea is that you shouldn't wear the minimum.

610
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 3: You should be going about and beyond and wearing the

611
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: most flair, you know. And I think like, it's amazing

612
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 3: how easy sometimes it is to incentivize workers to stay

613
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: late or to work on the weekends. There's sort of

614
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 3: like the equivalent of like the free T shirt that

615
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 3: you can get, you know, like, what about one hundred

616
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 3: dollars actually costing the company or what is it costing you?

617
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 3: So in the book, I advocate for a more transactional

618
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: approach to work. And it might sound crass to treat

619
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 3: a job as a transaction, you know, especially because we've

620
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,239
Speaker 3: been told that jobs are meant to be meanings and

621
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 3: identities and vocations and callings, not mere paychecks. But I

622
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: think a more transactional approach to work can actually benefit

623
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 3: both employers and employees. I think it freese employers to

624
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 3: be able to be straightforward about what the expectations for

625
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: good work looks like, to be clear and setting up

626
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 3: you know, this is what success would mean, and these

627
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 3: are the numbers that we're hoping you hit. This is

628
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: the sort of standards that we have here as a company.

629
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 3: And it frees employees to you know, talk about compensation

630
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 3: in a fair way and not think that somehow talking

631
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: about money is undermining the best interest of the company.

632
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 3: It Freese employees to understand what is expected of them,

633
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 3: and more than anything, it frees employees to treat work

634
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 3: as part of, but not the entirety, of their lives.

635
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 3: And you know, we're talking a lot about quiet quitting

636
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 3: and workers that are sort of phoning it in. I

637
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: don't actually think that is a recipe for fulfillment or

638
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: happiness either. You know, Like, I'm sure we can all

639
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 3: relate to the work days where you don't have enough

640
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: work to do and you're sort of just twiddling your

641
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: thumbs and the clock is moving slower than you thought

642
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: was humanly possible. I think treating work as like a

643
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 3: necessary evil is not necessarily a recipe for fulfillment either.

644
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 4: But I think why social media was invented.

645
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 3: Exactly just to fill all the it's like a fills

646
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 3: all the unoccupied space in our days. But you know,

647
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: I think it's it's finding that balance of like, what

648
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 3: do you want works role to be in your life?

649
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 3: How does that intersect with the necessities to do a

650
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 3: good enough job for your company, and how you can

651
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 3: invest the time and energy that you have in other

652
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 3: aspects of who you are. What I like about the

653
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 3: sort of title of the book, The good enough job

654
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 3: is that it's intentionally subjective. You know, you get to

655
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 3: decide what good enough means to you. Maybe it's a

656
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 3: job that pays a certain amount of money, or maybe

657
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 3: it's a job that has a certain title or isn't

658
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: a certain industry, or maybe it's a job that gets

659
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: off at a certain hour so that you can pick

660
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: up your kids from childcare. But whatever sort of your

661
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 3: definition of good enough is, I employ you to recognize

662
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: when you have it, because that's what will allow you

663
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: to set better boundaries around when you can say the

664
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 3: workday is done and not necessarily feel like you're always,

665
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 3: you know, somehow fallen behind if you're not getting ahead.

666
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: That's right.

667
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, like you said, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

668
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: It's not, and it also shouldn't be your sole focus.

669
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 2: It's so hard to find that balance. But you've talked

670
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: about setting some of these boundaries here in your book,

671
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: and we're actually going to get to some of the

672
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: practical ways that we can try to help decide for

673
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: ourselves what the good enough job is. We'll get to

674
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: all of that right after this.

675
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: All right, we're back from the break still talking with

676
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: Cimo stoles off about doing work that's good enough, and

677
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: I really love that framework, but specifically, how do we

678
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: get there with the day job that we've got going on,

679
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: whether we're self employed or we have, you know, a

680
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: W two job. Let's talk Sima for a second about

681
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: drawing better work boundaries, because I love the concept, but

682
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: in practice it seems like it could be a little

683
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: more difficult. How do we make sure that we're working

684
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 1: the way we want, not being wrung dry by our employer,

685
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: and that we still get to keep our job right

686
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: because we still got to pay the mortgage or the

687
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: rents or whatever it is.

688
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. I think you know, the question with boundaries

689
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 3: is it's tricky. It can be a fine line, literally,

690
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 3: and I think sometimes those boundaries are incumbent on the

691
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 3: worker to draw, and sometimes the responsibility should actually lie

692
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: on the employer. My mentor that I mentioned earlier, and

693
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 3: Helen Peterson, she has this great distinction between the difference

694
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 3: between boundaries and guardrails. You can think about boundaries as

695
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 3: sort of like the line and then the of the

696
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 3: highway that keeps you from going to from one lane

697
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 3: to another, whereas guardrails are structural they're put in place

698
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: by the state. They're the metal things on the side

699
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 3: of the road that keep you from going over. And

700
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 3: I think, you know, one of the problems with individually

701
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 3: imposed boundaries is that they inevitably break. You know, you

702
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 3: can have an intention to work less, but if there

703
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 3: is a deadline, or it's near the end of the

704
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 3: quarter and you have a quarterly sales goal, or your

705
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 3: boss tells you to work more hours, it can be

706
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 3: hard to raise your hand and be like, actually, I

707
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 3: have a boundary, you know. I mean, I definitely found

708
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 3: this in writing the book, you know, the great Irony said,

709
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: I was like working on this book about the culture

710
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 3: of overwork in America, and in many ways I was

711
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 3: my own worst manager then. So I would, you know,

712
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 3: feel crappy on weeks where I didn't hit my writing

713
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 3: goal and I wouldn't have to open up the laptop

714
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 3: on the weekend, even though I had a quote unquote

715
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 3: boundary that I didn't want to do that. And so

716
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 3: I think, you know, the first point is that a

717
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 3: lot of the onus to set these boundaries actually should

718
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 3: rest on the company and on managers and creating cultures

719
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 3: where it's okay for people to take time off, creating

720
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 3: plans in place for distributing the workloads so that there

721
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 3: isn't an undue burden placed on any individual, Hiring enough

722
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 3: employees so that there's enough work, enough workers to spread

723
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 3: out the work, and also creating norms around like when

724
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 3: you should be on or off the clock. But I

725
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 3: also think that individuals also deserve a certain level of

726
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: responsibility that the one step that I always come back

727
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 3: to is in Japan they have the most progressive parental

728
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 3: leave and specifically for fathers parntal Leaf policy and the world,

729
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 3: fathers are entitled to up to a year of paid

730
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 3: time after they have a kid. The last data that

731
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 3: I looked at, only five percent of Japanese fathers took

732
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: the entirety of the time that they were allotted, and

733
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 3: so it sort of points to these two necessities. There

734
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 3: needs to be the sort of policies in place that

735
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 3: allow people to do things other than work or prioritize

736
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 3: things outside of their work life, but there also needs

737
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: to be the cultural will to do so, and I

738
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 3: think that is what some of this kind of deprogramming

739
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: or having a sufficiency mindset when it comes to work

740
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 3: can allow us to do.

741
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's and this is why we love your approach, Cimo.

742
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 2: I mean, you're finding yourself in the radical middle, because

743
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 2: I feel like it's easy just to point to one

744
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: end of the spectrum or the other and be like,

745
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: that's the devil if we need to do the or exactly.

746
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,959
Speaker 2: But yeah, you're saying, you know, there is a certain

747
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 2: degree of responsibility that falls with the actual company, but

748
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that we're not off the hook. And

749
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: I think in particular, we need a channel our efforts

750
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 2: in the areas that I think where we can move

751
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: the needle the most for us as individuals. And when

752
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: it came to for you to talk about some of

753
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 2: the different boundaries that we can draw in our lives,

754
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 2: like you talk about too, how there are some folks

755
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: who like to have their work to be more integrated

756
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: within their life, right, And so it's not even saying

757
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 2: that what you should do is have hard boundaries and

758
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: that's going to be how you're going to be able

759
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: to achieve happiness and a successful life. But it seems

760
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: like you're just asking a lot of questions and you

761
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: want individuals to kind of do the hard work, and

762
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: it seems like that that is at the core of

763
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: the problem here is that a lot of individuals they

764
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 2: are not doing that difficult work. They're not setting goals

765
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: for themselves. You know, they're chasing status. They're chasing after

766
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: rankings or job titles or salaries as opposed to taking

767
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: the time and thinking through what it is that they

768
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: want for themselves. I mean, do you feel like that

769
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: that's accurate?

770
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. And you know, I mean the actual form

771
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: out of the book is chronicle people's stories in different industries,

772
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 3: and the one that stands out here is the story

773
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 3: of a Wall Street banker that I tell it's perhaps

774
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 3: like the most cliche story in the book. This guy

775
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 3: was a valedictorian and he went to an Ivy League

776
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 3: college and got a job on Wall Street that paid

777
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: the most, and quickly rose up the ranks of the

778
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 3: firm and was one of the youngest vps in the

779
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 3: firm's history. And from his perch at the top of

780
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 3: the org chart, he realized that he was playing a

781
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: game that he didn't actually want to win, so, you know,

782
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,959
Speaker 3: and he hadn't taken the time to look up and ask,

783
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 3: what is it that I actually want? You know, he

784
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 3: was always just chasing what the market valued. But I

785
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 3: think you know, the wisdom in his story is that

786
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 3: the other end of the spectrum, where you just think

787
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 3: about what you want without considering what the market wants,

788
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 3: is dangerous as well. It's the kind of thing that

789
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 3: might get you in a situation where you assume a

790
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 3: lot of student debt to pursue a graduate degree that

791
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 3: might not actually lead to job back on the other end,

792
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: or a situation where you're an artist but you're so

793
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 3: preoccupied by how you're going to pay rent that you

794
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 3: can't actually focus on the art that you hope to create.

795
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 3: And so, you know, it might be a little simplistic,

796
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: but I think it's really important to hold both of

797
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 3: those incentives in your hand at the same time and

798
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 3: thinking about, Okay, what is it that I value, what

799
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 3: is it that the market values, and how can I

800
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:27,439
Speaker 3: find work that marries the two.

801
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so one of the things I loved about

802
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: your book was that it wasn't some sort of self

803
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: help ten steps to a better relationship with your job,

804
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: and it was more storytelling. But I guess I am

805
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 1: also curious at the end, like when we talk about

806
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: having that conversation with your boss, with your direct manager.

807
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: Let's say you've been somewhere for years and you feel like,

808
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: over time there's just been this encroachment and so I

809
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: feel like of your employer on your own personal time,

810
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: and you found it harder to set boundaries, which I

811
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: think probably a lot of people could relate to that.

812
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: What does it look like then, too, I mean you

813
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 1: might start looking down the road to work somewhere else, right,

814
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: that's potentially one solution. But what if you're like, I

815
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: really like my job, I would just like to have

816
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: a more normal relationship with it. How would you suggest

817
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: starting to have that conversation with your direct supervisor to

818
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: kind of set up boundaries that are going to make

819
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: sense for both of you.

820
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know, there are things that you

821
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 3: can do within the confines of the workplace, and there

822
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 3: are things that you can do outside of the workplace.

823
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 3: When it comes to talking with your manager, I always

824
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 3: go back to just clarity of expectations. I think one

825
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 3: thing that drives people to over work is this desire

826
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 3: to sort of perform that they're doing a good job.

827
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: You know, this in the office world might mean just

828
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 3: like putting in FaceTime at the office and staying at

829
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 3: your desk. In the home world, that might be you know,

830
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 3: just sitting around on Slack or Microsoft teams waiting for

831
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 3: someone to send you a message. But what we should

832
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 3: be valuing is the quality of the work itself. And

833
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 3: so that's where I often start when I advise people

834
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 3: about talking to their bosses or their managers having a

835
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 3: very clear conversation about, Okay, where are we what is

836
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 3: the sort of like status of the quality of the

837
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 3: work that I am producing? Where am I meeting expectations?

838
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 3: Where am I exceeding expectations? If you want to try

839
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 3: and get promoted or move to the next level, what

840
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 3: is the type of work that you are expected to do?

841
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 3: And just making some of those things clear and so

842
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 3: you're not just sort of putting in pennies to the

843
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 3: proverbial work piggybank, hoping to cash out one day, but

844
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,439
Speaker 3: you're actually, you know, working clearly towards what good work

845
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: looks like at your company. When it comes to your

846
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 3: life outside of.

847
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,879
Speaker 1: Work, focusing on the work, I like that, yeah, yeah,

848
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: not on the other stuff. Hey, am I here enough?

849
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: I'm I here enough hours? I feel like that. That's presenteeism.

850
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 1: You start to feel like that's part of the work

851
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 1: that's required, but that's not the work totally.

852
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 3: You know, certain industries are just really set up in

853
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 3: a way that then make this very hard. Like I

854
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 3: think I'm thinking of like lawyers, for example, who are

855
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 3: asked to track their billable hours in like six minute

856
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 3: or fifteen minute increments. And I was talking to a

857
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 3: few lawyers for the book, and they're saying, you know,

858
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 3: it is disincentive for me to do efficient work. You

859
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 3: know that I get no material award for working efficiently

860
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 3: or doing high quality of work. It's all just about

861
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 3: the number of hours I spend on the work. And

862
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 3: that incentive structure is just so backwards, you know, Like

863
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: I understand that lawyers bill hourly, and so there should

864
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 3: be an expectation that they're you know, doing a certain

865
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: number of hours in order to do work for the firm.

866
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 3: But you know, what we should be rewarding is the

867
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 3: quality of the work itself. And I think that can

868
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 3: be extended to so many other fields. The thing I

869
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 3: always advise people for outside of the office is you know,

870
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 3: I talked a little bit about doing things other than

871
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 3: work and practice this means sort of like having active

872
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 3: forms of leisure. You know, like, if you want to

873
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 3: conceive of yourself as more than just someone who exists

874
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 3: on this earth to produce economic value or economic returns

875
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 3: for a corporation, try and find realms of your life

876
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 3: where people maybe don't even know what you do for

877
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 3: work or don't care about your job title. You know.

878
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 3: And this doesn't necessarily have to be taking up knitting

879
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 3: or a personal hobby. While I do think there is

880
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: value in being able to do something just for the

881
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: joy of it or just for the fun of it.

882
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 3: It can mean getting involved in your neighborhood or your

883
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 3: local community. It can mean finding a community of people

884
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 3: like a sports team or a book club, that your

885
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 3: value to that community is not tied to your value

886
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 3: in the office. It's something where you can show up

887
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: in a different realm and start to kind of cultivate

888
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 3: those different identities. You know, just a recent example, I'm Jewish,

889
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 3: and there are there's like a dormant Jewish identity somewhere

890
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 3: deep inside of me. I'm not very not a very

891
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 3: active Jew. But you know, recently it was Passover and

892
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 3: you know, I sat around the table with my family

893
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 3: and we participated in some of the traditions of the religion.

894
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 3: And it was through that behavior. It was through that

895
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 3: activity of actively doing something related to Judaism that I

896
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 3: felt my identity as a Jewish person began to grow.

897
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 3: And so you can think about that in any realm

898
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 3: of your life, whether you're a craft beer aficionado, that

899
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 3: identity will grow if you are actively taking time to

900
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 3: learn more about the craft beers, are going out drinking

901
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 3: with friends.

902
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 4: Just don't let it grow too much. Tay sober out there, folks.

903
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 2: But absolutely, well, Simo, this has been an awesome conversation.

904
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: We really appreciate you taking a time to just talk

905
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: to us about finding that balance. Where is it that

906
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: folks can learn more about you and specific where they

907
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 2: can find your book.

908
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, the best place to go is the good Enough

909
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: job dot com. And this is my first book and

910
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 3: so every order or pre order really makes a big difference,

911
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 3: and there you can find all of my socials and

912
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 3: other information that you might need.

913
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us here on

914
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 2: the podcast, Semo.

915
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me all.

916
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 1: Right, Matt, gotta love that conversation with Simone. I feel

917
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: like there is like so much of what he has

918
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: written about, and what he talks about we've talked about

919
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: in different ways over the years, exactly, not with the

920
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: eloquence or the precision.

921
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: We certainly have not written a book on it. I mean,

922
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: it's just one of the reasons I mean that we

923
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 2: wanted to have him on because the message that he

924
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: has it's so important, and honestly, the more ways that

925
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: you can talk about it, like the different angles that

926
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 2: you can take to the same end goal, well, if

927
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 2: that helps others to find that balance and to find

928
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 2: that fulfillment and happiness in life, we are all for

929
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: it for sure.

930
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 4: All right. So what was your big takeaway from this combo?

931
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: Was it that we should all be more chocolate cookies,

932
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: preferably with a little bit of sea salt, That a

933
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: little bit of sea salt really makes them stand down?

934
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 4: I think I thought you made Yeah.

935
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 2: Personally, I like a touch of oatmeal in there as well,

936
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:09,919
Speaker 2: just say it adds a little bit of chew.

937
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 4: Just not raisins.

938
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not raisins. You hate on raisins there, Okay.

939
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 2: So I think my big takeaway is that so many

940
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 2: of the things, so many of the problems and the

941
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 2: different myths that he addresses in the book. It's not

942
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,439
Speaker 2: that they are something we should completely avoid, but it's

943
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 2: just that we are relying on our job to meet

944
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 2: those ends more than we should. Uh So, for instance,

945
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: when it comes to the job you do, should you

946
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 2: be passionate about it? Well, maybe we should be less

947
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 2: focused on the passion side of things and instead, first

948
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 2: and foremost, like he said, we should be thinking about

949
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,720
Speaker 2: it like an economic contract. Yes, I'm going to exchange

950
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 2: my time and my talents for a paycheck.

951
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 4: And if you like the job, that's great, be on

952
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 4: top exactly.

953
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how maybe we shouldn't be looking to our

954
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 2: jobs to find that interpersonal relationship and to the extent

955
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 2: that we even think of our coworkers as family, but

956
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 2: instead we should maybe maintain a degre of professionalism. And

957
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: if we think about it from maybe more of that

958
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 2: transactional framework, Like within that framework, I think it could

959
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: be healthier because honestly, I feel like it kind of

960
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 2: goes counter to what a lot of folks are saying,

961
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: where they're just like, oh, no, no, no, you know, like

962
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 2: the whole if you're an employee here, we treat you

963
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 2: like family and like that whole approach but.

964
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 4: It benefits from that relationship typically the employer.

965
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, not you, And it leaves the employee in an

966
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: unhealthy position once you get fired or once you leave

967
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 2: that job and you're trying to and you're rudderless and

968
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 2: you're trying to figure out what you're gonna do next.

969
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,720
Speaker 4: But I thought we were family, Yeah exactly.

970
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I just I don't know. It's interesting to

971
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 2: hear someone take an approach towards your work, towards your

972
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 2: career that d emphasizes the like the interpersonal side of things.

973
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 2: It's it's sort of like it's a way that he

974
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 2: is finding himself in the middle because he's not going

975
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 2: to the far extreme and saying that like, oh, yeah,

976
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 2: we should all be completely disenchanted with our job. We

977
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: should only be thinking about it as a contract, but

978
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: that you should only do the bare minimum either, right exactly.

979
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:57,439
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

980
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 2: So there's a way to find fulfilling work, and there's

981
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 2: also a way to find work that's going to pay

982
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: you well, but you don't necessarily have to sell your

983
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 2: soul in order to achieve that on either end of

984
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 2: the spectrum.

985
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: Yep, No, I think it's a good way to put it.

986
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: My big take about you though. Yeah, when he said

987
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: all of our identities need investments, I thought that was great.

988
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 1: And he basically talked about how they're similar to houseplants,

989
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: and my thought was, Man, a lot of our houseplants,

990
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 1: at least in my house, are parched, like we're not

991
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: doing a good enough job with them. And I think

992
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: the same is true for a lot of our identities

993
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: areas in our life. Yeah, like when it comes to spouse,

994
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,720
Speaker 1: when it comes to parent, when it comes to community involvement.

995
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: We talked about that Wall Stream journal I can't get

996
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: that out of my head, just that poll about how

997
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: people value money more than they value community, more than

998
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: they value patriotism, or in they value family these days.

999
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: It speaks so much about where we're at as a culture.

1000
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: I think we value our careers way more than we

1001
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 1: value a lot of those things too, because our careers

1002
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: are so tied to money, and that is a shame.

1003
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: And so we need to start to think about how

1004
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: we can start watering, start pruning, start taking care of

1005
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: those other identity forming factors in our lives, like hobbies,

1006
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: like interpersonal relationships. And I think that will in all

1007
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 1: likelihood mean putting a little bit less into work and career,

1008
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: and I think we'll be happier for it. So I

1009
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: guess is this where I put in my two weeks? Notice, Matt, sure,

1010
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 1: just kidding, but now.

1011
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: We are more how to money for folks.

1012
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 4: We try not to overdo it and and that is.

1013
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: All about finding that balance.

1014
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: Part of the reason we love it because we're not

1015
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 1: working sixty hours a week doing it. But Matt, let's

1016
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 1: go back to the beer that we had on this episode.

1017
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: This is a beer I picked up when I was

1018
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: out on the West Coast. It's Ye scrap Alicious by

1019
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: Los Angeles Aleworks. What are your thoughts on this ipa?

1020
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: Is the whole scrap alicious thing? Is that the name

1021
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:38,919
Speaker 2: of this cat?

1022
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 4: I think so? Is it like a brewery cat? I

1023
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 4: think so.

1024
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 2: It makes me think about when we were in Kentucky

1025
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 2: and we went to Peerless Distillery. They had a distillery

1026
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 2: cat that's right, that hung around there in the gift shop.

1027
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, man, this was a fantastic juicy ipa, as

1028
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 2: it's written here on the label. Just like our conversation

1029
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 2: with Simone, it strikes the balance between being incredibly juicy

1030
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 2: and having the right amount of sweetness, but at the

1031
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 2: same time, it's got like that sharpness, the bitterness that

1032
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 2: you get from the Hops that it's been a minute

1033
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 2: since I've said blue cheese as I've described an IPA,

1034
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:15,399
Speaker 2: but this one kind of had some of those sharp

1035
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: blue cheese elements. And when you're able to strike that

1036
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 2: perfect balance between the two, you end up with an

1037
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 2: amazing beer.

1038
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 1: I feel like when you describe an IPA, you don't

1039
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: typically want to describe it as funky, but occasionally there

1040
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: is an IPA.

1041
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 2: And blue cheese is funky.

1042
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can call it funky and it's a

1043
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: good thing. Sometimes if it's funky, it means that it's

1044
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 1: as a bad thing. Yeah, it's like, oh no, this

1045
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: is a shelfterd. This was on the shelf from a

1046
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: year or two, and so it kind of tastes a

1047
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: little funky, but this is like, no, no, no. The Hops

1048
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: bring a level of yeah that that just some kind

1049
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: of unique notes from from the hop set that they

1050
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 1: put into this IPA, And so I like it. It

1051
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 1: was juicy, a little funky, and overall good vibes from

1052
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: this one.

1053
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Specifically, if you're really into the Hops, that's got

1054
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,439
Speaker 2: I've never even heard of these first two hops brew

1055
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 2: one Loral and then Sabro.

1056
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen those hops on labels before, but not

1057
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,720
Speaker 1: this first two. So so many hot varieties now, it's ridiculous.

1058
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: You know, you just gotta go down there one of

1059
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: these days. You want to go to a hot farm

1060
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: down in New Zealand.

1061
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, that sounds pretty cool field trip. Maybe in

1062
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 2: like five ten years, who knows, But yeah, enough about

1063
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 2: the beer. Be sure to look out for Simone's book.

1064
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 2: It's set to be published here in a couple of weeks.

1065
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 2: I found it to be incredibly thought provoking and hopefully

1066
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 2: I wonder if this is one of his goals. But

1067
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 2: just for you to be able to ask yourself a

1068
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 2: bunch of different questions as you process and do the

1069
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: hard work of figuring out what it is that you're

1070
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 2: looking for, like that, not just in your statement, yeah exactly,

1071
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,240
Speaker 2: not just in your job, but honestly just in life overall.

1072
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 2: But we'll make sure to have links up on the

1073
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 2: website at how toomoney dot com. And Buddy, that's going

1074
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 2: to be it for this episode. Until next time, Best

1075
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 2: Friends Out, Best Friends Out.

1076
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 3: You don't fool