1 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff Mom 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: never told you. One thing some of you may not 3 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: know is that I am the co host of another 4 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: how stuff work show called Savor, all about food and drink, 5 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: and as you might imagine from that, I spend an 6 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: embarrassing amount of time thinking about food, particularly desserts, which 7 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: is funny because as a kid, I was not a 8 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: dessert fan. I didn't even want a dessert at my 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: birthday parties. I sold all of my Halloween candy for money, 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: and I made a lot of money. I marked up 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: that candy. But something happened around college and I developed 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: a real sweet tooth for baked goods. I have a 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: March Madness type bracket for my favorite desserts, and pie 14 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: is solidly on top, depending on the type of course, 15 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: but generally it's my go too. About a month ago, 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: at one of my friend's weddings, instead of a wedding cake, 17 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: they had five types of pie and it was just 18 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: about the best thing I've ever seen at a wedding. 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: Every year, I try to make a new pie for Thanksgiving, 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: one I've never made before, and I'm still mulling over 21 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: what it will be this year. But in the meantime, 22 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this classic episode about all things pie. 23 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told You from how stupp 24 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm 25 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and since the holidays have arrived, 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: we decided to talk about pie for an entire podcast. 27 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: That's right, it's history. It's very multifaceted, beautiful, tasty, bubbly history. Yes, 28 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: and there's lots of gender involved with pie making that 29 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: we'll get into later. But first off, Caroline, I want 30 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: to ask you what your favorite pie is or do 31 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: you have a favorite pie. Are you more of a 32 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: cake person? Well, I gotta say I was not a 33 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 1: pie fan. When I was growing up. We didn't really 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: do pies in the urban household. We were cake people. Um, 35 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: so pecan pie was as adventurous as we would get. Honestly, Yeah, 36 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: I gotta say, I just prefer cake. Really, So, you 37 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: don't have a favorite pie, no, unless chocolate is involved. Really, 38 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: then that's my only stipulation. Oh yeah, chocolate can absolutely 39 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: be involved in a pie. Let me tell you, in fact, Caroline, 40 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: baking fact about your co host Kristen. I will not 41 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: refer to myself in the third person anymore. Is that 42 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: my family like known recipe that I and I alone 43 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: make is a French silk pie chocolate pie, and make 44 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: my own whip cream topping, which is not a part 45 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: of the roastby. I just put it on top because 46 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: what makes it pie better than whipped cream? Nothing? Yeah, 47 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing. Um So, even though my family isn't a 48 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: super heavy and desserts, my mom always enjoyed baking, and 49 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: so I kind of inherited that from her. And I 50 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: love a good pie. I love a good pie. And 51 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: you know what I'm gonna say, I prefer pie to 52 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: cake because it's not as heavy as cake. Yeah. Wow. See, 53 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: I feel like pie with its pastry crust and it's 54 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: lattice work and it's uey, gooey nous. I feel like 55 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: pie is kind of heavy. We can we're gonna have 56 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: to agree to disagree wars. Well, you know, it's not 57 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: heavy actually, so I take back some of what I said. 58 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: My mom does quote unquote make a pie sometimes lemon 59 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: ice box pie, but nothing about it is homemade. So 60 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: it's the store about crust and it is like the jello, 61 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: you know, putting lemon pudding stuff with a cool whip 62 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: on top, and my dad eats it, and he's the 63 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: only one who eats it. That actually sounds pretty good 64 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: to me. But I guess it's only confirmation that I'm 65 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: I'm a pie person. I'm a pie lady. But one thing, though, 66 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: that is indisputable, is that pie at least beats cake 67 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: in terms of historical longevity. Pies have been around for 68 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: so long. Yeah, and they are very significant too, pretty 69 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: much every culture that has come before us. Yeah. We 70 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: learned some tasty historical facts about pie from the American 71 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: Pie Council, because yes, there's a pie lobby that exists, 72 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: and also from the New York Times, both of which 73 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: describe how pie has been around since the ancient Egyptians. 74 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: I feel like the ancient Egyptians always factor into our stuff. 75 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: I've never told you conversations. Um, and it was a 76 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: very old culinary invent And Janet Clarkson, who wrote Pie 77 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: a Global History, says that once upon a time, everything 78 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: baked in the oven that was not a bread was 79 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: a pie, right and and because the way that things 80 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: had to be cooked and preserved, I mean, it's not 81 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: like there were refrigerators or regular ovens hanging around, so 82 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: often food would be put into this sort of terrible 83 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: sounding clay like pastry and and baked in an effort 84 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: to preserve it. And the first pies were actually made 85 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: by early Romans who then may have learned about it 86 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: through the Greeks, who we think we're the originators of 87 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: the pastry shell, which they made by combining flour and water, 88 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: which sounds like such a basic thing. Obviously it's kind 89 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: of a cornerstone fundamental of baking. But that flower and 90 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: water combo was pretty revolutionary, and those pies using a 91 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: pastry shell very rudimentary. A street shell would have been 92 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: a step above what they used to do, which would 93 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: have simply been wrapping reads or large leafs around meats 94 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: in particular to preserve its juicy goodness. Just put that 95 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: pie in some grass, yeah, grass pie, for it sounds 96 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: like what I used to make in the backyard of 97 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: the child um. Anyways, So speaking of the Romans, they 98 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: enjoyed meat pies during the dessert course, so pie was 99 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: still a dessert for them, but it was it was meaty, 100 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: not not berry ish um and the first published Roman 101 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: pie recipe was for goat, cheese and honey pie, which 102 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: to me actually sounds incredible. Yeah, that sounds very good. 103 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: And Kato the Elder, for instance, wrote about the most 104 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: popular pie of his time, which was called placenta. Placenta pie. 105 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,559 Speaker 1: You read about this in day Agricultura. And I don't 106 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: have the recipe for placenta in front of me, but 107 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: I believe it is one of those savory pies that 108 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: would have come out during the Secoon di mensa or 109 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: that dessert course. And I can only imagine the visual 110 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: now being created in listeners minds by the two words 111 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: plasent a pie. Well, I know what's being created in mine. Well, 112 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: so anyway, um, let's let's travel to England in the 113 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: twelfth century up pies. That's when pies originally appeared. And 114 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: of course they were spelled very early English e with 115 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: a y instead of an eye, and they were predominantly 116 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: meat pies. We really don't get into sweet fruity pies 117 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: until a lot later and during the Middle Ages. The 118 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: pie crust, like I was saying earlier, was more of 119 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: a baking dish. It was kind of a container and 120 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: food preserver, and it was so sturdy that cooks actually 121 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: might have reused it from time to time. Yeah, there's 122 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: some medieval text talking about how uh, the poorer masses 123 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: might have gotten the discards of this really thick, almost 124 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: an edible pie crust from wealthier people's pies. But this 125 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: was because of how meat was cooked at the time. 126 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: It was cooked on an open spit, which rendered it 127 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: drier and smaller because all those juices were being released, 128 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: and so people started wrapping it up to yeah, to 129 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: keep that almost like a pot pie, to keep all 130 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: that that meaty, juicy goodness inside. And they called this 131 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: bake meat m et And so for hundreds of years, 132 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: this primitive pie crust was really the only type of 133 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: baking dish available. And fun fact, because it really served 134 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: as a dish for your food rather than something that 135 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 1: would enhance the flavor of say a dessert, the crust 136 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: of pie was referred to as a coffin. M hmm, yeah, 137 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: that's weird and morbid. Well, because at that time, coffin 138 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: simply denoted baskets. Yeah sure right, Um well, often these 139 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: meaty pies were made using foul and the legs this 140 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: is I just the legs were left to hang over 141 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: the side of the dish and used as handles, which 142 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: also indicates how tough those pie p y e crusts 143 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: were at the time. Um. But when we move into 144 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: the fourteenth century, by this point the Oxyford English Dictionary 145 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: notes that pie had become a popular word, so clearly 146 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: you know people were eating pie. There was a lot 147 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: of pie going around. And then in the sixteenth century 148 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: in England we have the emergence of fruit pies or 149 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: tarts also called pasties. And I love this English tradition 150 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: credits the making of the first cherry pie to Queen 151 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: Elizabeth the first Is she the type? Is she the 152 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: type true of made of pie? I don't see Queen 153 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: Elizabeth the verse making a pie at all. I don't either, 154 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: But I mean, I guess those are the kinds of 155 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: benefits you get if you are a queen. People just 156 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: say you do marvelous things such as make the first 157 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: cherry pie. Yeah, And I would have asked, Queen Elizabeth, 158 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: I would have accepted that compliment, and I would have saiden. Indeed, 159 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: these days, if you were queen, your your special thing 160 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: would probably be in contemporary terms of like Queen Caroline, you, 161 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: oh yes, you invented working. Of course she took the 162 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: first selfie. You're exactly right. I actually take credit for 163 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: T working anyway, Um and T working selfies. That's right. So, 164 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: speaking of pie events in the sixteenth century, apple pie 165 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: is mentioned in the fifty nine poem by Our Green 166 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: Thy breath is like the steam of apple pies, hot 167 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: cinnamon breath. Basically, um, but pies all so took a 168 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: weird turn around this time as well, because there was 169 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: a meat pie craze. This was described in an article 170 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: in The l A Times talking about the history of 171 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: pot pies, and it mentions that a mid sixteenth century 172 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: cookbook included a recipe for a and just vegetarians and 173 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: vegans listening, you might want to put down your headphones 174 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: right now because it was a five bird pie in 175 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: which each bird was stuffed inside the other bird, and 176 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: then all of that wrapped up in in a pie. 177 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: So like the predecessor to a tur duck in yes, 178 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: but pie, but pie, but that could only be topped 179 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: by pies that would contain live birds and animals. This 180 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: was like a really fun party trick for super rich people. 181 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: They would say, make me a pie with with live snakes, 182 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: and sorry of it. Yeah, like Indiana gents. Um. Well 183 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: at least it wasn't monkey brains, I guess. But I 184 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: mean they also had people popping out of pies. Yeah, 185 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean the we think of like the cheesy woman 186 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: popping out of a cake today, But people did pop 187 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: out of these pies. They did not go through the oven. 188 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, there are stories about like little people popping 189 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: out of pies and then serving as the court jester, 190 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: or a young woman who popped out of a pie 191 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: and she was bound to symbolize like the religious constraints 192 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: of of the pope. You know, they got elaborate with 193 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: these pies. Yeah, that whole nursery rhyme about a sing 194 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: a song of sixpence that talks about how many four 195 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: blackbirds baked in a pie That is in reference to 196 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: these quote unquote surprise pies that are full of surprises, 197 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: and by surprises live animals and people. Well, so do 198 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: you eat? Was there anything once the birds flew out 199 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: of the pie? Was there anything to eat in it? 200 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: Because I'd be afraid they were just be a lot 201 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: of bird Do do inside of it? Well? Probably if 202 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: you were at a feast hosted by someone as wealthy 203 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: as to have one of these surprise pies I'm imagining. 204 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: And also because like medieval tapestries would show this that 205 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: there would be a table before you laden with other dishes. 206 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: So maybe it's you know that sounds delicious, Yeah, minus 207 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: the birds that are flying, minus minus the bird poop 208 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: from all of those. But that's a general life policy, yes, yes, well, 209 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: so speaking of cakes, also, cakes were not the original 210 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: wedding food. Before wedding cakes, bride pies were popular in 211 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: England the seventeenth century. Bride pies were probably actually savory 212 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: rather than sweet, and there was a tradition of putting 213 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 1: a glass ring inside them and whatever woman got a 214 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: piece with the ring was said to be the next bride. 215 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: Also sounds dangerous, uh, in terms of tooth chipping. Well, 216 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: judging by how fast I tend to eat pastries and pies, 217 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: I would probably suck that sucker down. You just swallow it. Yeah, 218 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: oh okay. But we have that shift though toward the 219 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: popularity of the wedding cake, as well as the tradition 220 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: of the white wedding dress with the marriage of Queen 221 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: Victoria to Prince Albert in eighteen forty. But One of 222 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: the reasons too, why you would have savory bride pies 223 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: as opposed to wedding cakes is because of the price 224 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: of sugar. The price of sugar was very high, um. 225 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: But Queen Victoria had a nine foot tall wedding cake 226 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: that I believe waged five pounds um. But a lot 227 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: of this was the product of people donating goods to 228 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: this royal wedding feast, because even for a queen, all 229 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: that sweet cake would have been such an exorbitant expense. Also, 230 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: you know when when the English colonists moved over to America, 231 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: they brought the pie tradition with them. This is coming 232 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: again from the American Pie Council in the New York 233 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: Times and Time magazine. The colonists basically eight pie out 234 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: of necessity because it was an incredibly calorie dense food 235 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: and like we said, it could preserve quite a few 236 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: of their food items. Yeah. And Andrew F. Smith, who's 237 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: a food historian and author, said that the crust was 238 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: a bit of a problem because there were none of 239 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: the Old World grains. But if settlers had a pie 240 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: tin and maze that worked. And he talks about how 241 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: pies use less flour than bread and could be easily 242 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: and cheaply baked. And again though these early American pie 243 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: crusts weren't so much intended to be eaten as designed 244 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: to hold the filling. During the bay A King and 245 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: during the American Revolution, the term crust was used instead 246 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: of coffin. So we're still having evolution of pie making, 247 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: even as the crust part is still not so much delectable. Well, 248 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: and plus, I mean, pie was your handy dandy finger 249 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: food because before the mid mid eighteen hundreds, most Americans 250 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: didn't have forks. We went for a long time in 251 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: our nation's history without having many forks. So we were 252 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: a nation founded upon hot pockets ascension. Yeah, I think 253 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: that we. Yes, this episode is brought to you by 254 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: hot pockets. Now. Even though most Americans didn't have forks 255 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: before the mid nineteenth century, what we did have, though 256 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: was pumpkin pie. Because the first recipe known recipe at 257 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: least for pumpkin pie was written in the seventeenth century 258 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: in England, and it was really just like, hey, we've 259 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: got the squash, spice it up, put it in one 260 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: of your coffins, and bought a boom. You've got pumpkin pie. 261 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: But then when we come over to the America's it 262 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: wasn't popularized over here until the early eighteen hundreds. Yeah, 263 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: it originated from the delectable British spiced and boiled squash. Boiled, 264 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: they boiled it. Oh, we get a soft in it somehow. Well, 265 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, yeah, you're you're not wrong. Um. But 266 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: apple pie another another favorite. It's an old World fruit 267 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: introduced by the colonists, and apple pies could be saved 268 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: over the winter and ice houses, so it was a 269 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: great sweet, as we said, calorie riffic treat that they 270 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: could rely on to get them through long cold winters. Yeah. 271 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: But speaking of that sweet treat, one of the appeals 272 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: of an apple pie maybe was that it was naturally sweet, 273 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: because again, these old World pies would not have had 274 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: the benefit of sugar because again the price of sugar 275 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: was so high for so long, so instead of using sugar, 276 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: the initial pie of sweeteners would have been things like 277 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: maple syrup and molasses. Although once the price of sugar 278 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: started to drop in the United States in the mid 279 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, you have more and more sweeter pies take over. 280 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: Because in sevente a cookbook from the time listed only 281 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: three types of sweet pies, but then by the late 282 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds you only have still eight types of sweet pies. 283 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: But by nineteen forty seven, the modern Encyclopedia of Cooking 284 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: lists sixty five different varieties of sweet pies. Yeah, and 285 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: that Graham cracker crust that my mother buys from the 286 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: grocery store to use in my father's weird jello lemon 287 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: ice box pies. It's infinitely easier than a pastry cut crust. 288 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: But it's relatively new, and it didn't come around until 289 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: about the nineteen thirties, and it was it was very 290 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: controversial among pie people. But I'm gonna go ahead and 291 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: say it. A Graham cracker crust is just so good. Well, 292 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: I think in my mind a Graham cracker crust is 293 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: second only to an Oreo crust. Oh, I agree with 294 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: you there. Yeah, that's another thing about my signature French 295 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: silk pie. I'll make an Oreo crust for it. Well. No, 296 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: my my aunt every year makes for Thanksgiving. Her specialty 297 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: is making a cheesecake, a beautiful plain cheesecake with an 298 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: Oreo crust, and it is I could eat the whole thing. 299 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: But here is here's a fun fact about American pie traditions. 300 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: Because the most popular pie in the United States is 301 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: the apple pie, there's a whole saying of as American 302 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: as apple pie. We've got bye bye, I'm miss American pie. 303 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: You know, we're all about apple pie over here. But 304 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: it was not America's first beloved pie. In fact, George 305 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: Washington himself was not an apple pie guy so much 306 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: as a sweet eat red pie, which means that old 307 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: Martha Washington because this was in one of her rescue books. 308 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: She liked to make a sweet red pie pie for 309 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: Georgie boy. But sweetbreads are not so sweet as savory 310 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: because they are animal intestines. Yeah, like organ meats. Oh 311 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: what's worse? Birds popping out of your pie or organ meats? Well, 312 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: I will at least you wouldn't have to eat the 313 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: empty bird crust thing crust pie. So contrary to all 314 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: of this American lore about apple pies being the most 315 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: American thing, it was actually mince pie that was America's 316 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: number one treat during the nineteenth and early twentieth century, 317 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: and mince pie had some surprises in it, namely, rum yeah. 318 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: During prohibition. In fact, mince pie became sort of like 319 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: a bootleggers delight because, as pointed out in a great 320 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: article on the history of mince pie in The Chicago Reader, 321 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: a nineteen nineteen article in the Chicago Tribune reported that 322 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: the average alcohol content of canned mints like the filling, 323 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: the mince pie filling, the alcohol content was fourteen point 324 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: one two per cent. That's that's a heavy pie. Yeah, 325 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: that is a heavy pie. But before then, though, Americans 326 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: were already crazy about mince pie. I mean, what was 327 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: it there was Oh yeah, there was an eighteen eighty 328 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: article in the Montpellier Argus and Patriot that said, mince pie, 329 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: like masonry, arouses curiosity from the mystery attaching to it. 330 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: It's popularity shall never wane until faith is lost in sight. 331 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: That's how much we loved mince pie. Yeah, And the 332 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: guy and the reader was comparing the downfall, the fading 333 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: out of the mince pie popularity too, if we suddenly 334 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: just decided to stop eating cheeseburgers as a nation, Like, 335 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: it was that popular and that ingrained in our diet. 336 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: But it was also similar to us loving cheeseburgers, so much. 337 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: We also knew that it wasn't so good for us 338 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: because mince pie is essentially a combination of animal fat 339 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: and sort of roast beef ish type of meat ground up, 340 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: and then you had a bunch of spices and obviously 341 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: a lot of booze if it's during prohibition, and you 342 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: bake it all together. And this guy in the Chicago 343 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: Reader baked his own mince pie and he enjoyed it 344 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: for its fatty, spicy goodness. Um. But there were some 345 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: strange things that were going along with this mince pie craze, 346 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: such as Albert Allen's mince pie defense in nineteen o seven. Yeah, 347 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: so Alan was in Chicago and he used mince pie 348 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: as a defense for fatally shooting his wife in nineteen 349 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: oh seven. He said that he was this mince pie 350 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: had created such bad nightmares that he was like gambling 351 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: and someone was trying to steal money from him, and 352 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: so he wanted in his dream, wanted to shoot the guy. 353 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: And he woke up and he had shot his wife dead. Yeah. 354 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: And there was another case where a guy on a 355 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: boat died and at first I thought there was foul play, 356 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: but it turned out that he had just eaten way 357 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: too much mince pie. And so for that reason, there 358 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: were all these warnings about the bizarre side effects of 359 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: eating mince pie, because apparently you couldn't eat just one piece. 360 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: For all these stories about people eating like entire mins pies, um, 361 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: and it led to things like, of course indigestion, but 362 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: also nightmares, hallucinations, and even just just death. Reading that 363 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: Chicago Reader article, and you know, reading all of the 364 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: ingredients that the guy used, I mean the amount of 365 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: animal fat, like weird, weird animal fat that he put 366 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: into it. I'm sure it did like instantly clog your arteries, 367 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: but I can also imagine how savory that probably is 368 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: as well. Again, vegetarians and vegans, I am sorry, but 369 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: the topic of our Thanksgiving podcast, The Mother of Thanksgiving herself, 370 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: Sarah Josepha Hale, makes an appearance in the mince pie craze. Yeah. 371 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: She wrote in eighteen forty one in the Victorian American 372 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: cookbook The Good Housekeeper the dangers of eating too much 373 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: of this pie, well pie in general, right, not just 374 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: mince pie. Um. She talked about how people of delicate 375 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: constitutions um should not eat pie because it would injure them, 376 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: and that the nature of pastry is just indigestible, and 377 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: so she said, it would really be a great improvement 378 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: in the matter of health if people would eat their 379 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: delicious summer fruits with good light bread instead of working 380 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: up the flour with water and butter to a compound 381 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: that almost defies the digestive powers and baking their in 382 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: the fruits till they lose nearly all their fine original flavor. 383 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: So Americans have been panicking about the national diet for ever, 384 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: it seems like yeah, well, especially since they tied it 385 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: into like doing crazy things like eating poorly and drinking 386 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: too much made you just act like a crazy person. Well, 387 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: and also at the turn of the century there was 388 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: this movement towards more exercise for people focusing on diet. 389 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of Graham crackers, you have the invention 390 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: of the graham cracker that was supposed to be you know, 391 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: that your staple food that you kind of lived off 392 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: up to be healthier. So men spies bore some of 393 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: the brunt for that. And also just at that time, 394 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: people were making a lot of pies because for so 395 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: long it was the standard way that we ate food. Um, 396 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: but piemaking did go through a twentieth century decline because 397 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: of things like women entering the workforce, and so we 398 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: didn't have all that time to make pies. I know, 399 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. I can't imagine the amount of time 400 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: dedicated to cooking all of these meals every day, cooking 401 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: elaborate pies from scratch. Um. Piemaking did rebound a little 402 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: bit after World War Two because modern food advances appeared 403 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: that made pie making easier. You have things like shortening, 404 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: You have ready made crusts, box mixes, and instant pudding. 405 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: You have refrigeration. Although all of those post World War 406 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: two innovations that were so time changing and revolutionary in 407 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: those kitchens at the time would now be very much 408 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: looked down upon by modern piemakers who are all about 409 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: going old school with no shortening and using good butter 410 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: and flour. Um. And apparently there was in the nineteen 411 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: eighties a pie revival, it's according to the History kitchen. 412 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: And I feel like pie making and baking is really 413 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: regaining a lot of attention today as well. But it's 414 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: funny to look back and see that the most popular 415 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: pies in our country still hearken back to those earlier 416 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: eras of needing to preserve food, living off of the land, 417 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: needing to have something to do with strange confounding gourds 418 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: like pumpkins, because, according to a two thousand eight survey 419 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: from the American Pie Council and Crisco, of Americans prefer 420 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: apple pie, followed by pumpkin at thirteen pecan at twelve, 421 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: banana cream at ten percent, and cherry at nine percent. 422 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 1: What I want to know is where are the key 423 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: lime pie lovers? Hello? Are you out there? Because I'm 424 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: sitting here because and I love a key lime piel 425 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: and pie. Maybe they had weird stipulations about the ingredients. 426 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, I don't know, but 427 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: I will say that cherry pie always makes me think 428 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: of twin peaks as well, and it makes me crave 429 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: cherry pie. God, I just want pie, Caroline, I know, 430 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: I really just want a lot of food. Right now, 431 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: I'm I'm yeah, it's pie hour and by that I 432 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,959 Speaker 1: mean lunchtime. Um, but we've got to now talk about 433 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: gender and pie because there is a funny thing about 434 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: pie wherein you don't see a lot of culinary evolution. 435 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: We're still eating the same pies that our forefathers and 436 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: four mothers were eating, and in a similar kind of way, 437 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: pie making, the act of making a pie is still 438 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: very much linked specifically to the female experience. Absolutely. I mean, 439 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, back in the day, that's that's who was 440 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: in the kitchen making those pies, whether it was from 441 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: scratch or whether it was using those modern pie advances. 442 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: And in two thousand eight Pie Slice of Life Survey 443 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: Man two thousand eight was a big year for pie surveys. 444 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: I was conducted by Schwann's Consumer Brands of North America. 445 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: They asked survey respondents which mother would make the best pie, 446 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: because obviously they you know, wouldn't be which person It 447 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: would have to be a stereotypical TV mom. Yeah, of course. Well, 448 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: so respondents said that Carol Brady of the Brady Bunch 449 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: of People picked her to make the best pie out 450 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: of all the TV moms, followed by the Cosby Shows 451 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: Claire Huxtable with and to that, I say, please, Clare 452 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: Exetable doesn't have time to make a pie. She's a lawyer. 453 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: I was thinking the same thing. Well anyway, coming in 454 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: third with sixteen percent, was desperate Housewives Brie van de 455 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: Camp and Everybody Loves Raymonds Deborah Barone with We should 456 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: also know, though, that the same survey did also ask 457 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: who makes the best pie. The number one answer was mom, 458 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: Number two was well, your grocery store. A number three 459 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: was grandma. So again we have, uh, you know, women 460 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: making the pies. And there is a book called Can 461 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: She Bake a cheer Ry Pie? American Women and the 462 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: Kitchen in the twentieth Century by Mary Drake mcpheely, and 463 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: she talks about how in the rural America of the past, 464 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: a woman's reputation might be attached to her piemaking skills. 465 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: And she talks about this folk song called Billy Boy, 466 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: which I had forgotten that I knew. We used to 467 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: sing it when I was a kid, And there's this 468 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: verse about how well can she make a cherry pie? 469 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: Charming Billy because he's talking about this amazing woman that 470 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: he met, and it's like, well, yeah, she might so 471 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: be great and really pretty, but can she bake you 472 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: a pie? And he's like, yes, she can make a pie. 473 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: She's the apple of my eye. And then they're like, okay, 474 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: in that case, Billy, go ahead. Marry this woman, thank God, 475 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: because who cares about any other skills? Yeah? Um. But 476 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: even though as home cooking became less essential, mcpheeley says, 477 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: piemaking continued to be seen as a measure of a 478 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: woman's true all you. Yeah, I mean I think, I think, uh, 479 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: women are kind of getting the chaft there. If our 480 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: our skills and our value is based on our our 481 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: cooking ability. Although I mean, you know, like my mother 482 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: and in our house has always done all of the cooking, 483 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: it just seems like it's more of more of the 484 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: woman's domain. And much like Sarah Josefa Hale wanted Thanksgiving, 485 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: for instance, to serve as a time for women to 486 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: show off their culinary skills and really be able to 487 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: get in there and celebrate a holiday. For once, pies 488 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: were kind of that bump up to. It was like, 489 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, show off your skills with lattice designs, crazy things, 490 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: with crazy pastry shapes and things. Yeah. I feel like 491 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:51,239 Speaker 1: pie making is deceptively difficult, because I've tried to make 492 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: a number of pies and honestly, one of the reasons 493 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: why I make French silk pie is because it's so simple. 494 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: You literally melt chocolate, melt butter, put in a bunch 495 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: of sugar, and mix it until it's smooth and poured 496 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: into an oreo shell or whatever gonna shell you want. 497 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: But to make a fruit pie one that has that thick, 498 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: but gooey, perfect filling, and to do something like a 499 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: lattice work, I have tried and failed so many times, 500 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: and it might taste okay, But to make a pie 501 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: that looks good and taste good is such a challenge. 502 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: And I feel like we always think that cakes are 503 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: so impressive because you they have to rise and they're 504 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: these these creations are almost like just like the huge 505 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: towers and you have the frosting and all the stuff 506 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: that's going on, whereas pies might look so simple to 507 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: pull off. But I can see how, in the complexity 508 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: of actually making pies, how that translates to being this 509 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 1: sort of milestone culinary task historically for women, because like, well, 510 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: if you can make a pie, then you must be 511 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: good at other things well. And I mean even the 512 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: act of baking is celebrated by some as a feminist act. 513 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: Nigella Lawson, famous TV cook, got slammed for saying that 514 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: baking is a feminist act. She said, baking is the 515 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: less applauded of the cooking arts, whereas restaurants are a 516 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: male province to be celebrated. There's something intrinsically misogynistic about 517 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: decrying a tradition because it has always been female. I'm 518 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: not being entirely facetious when I say it's a feminist tract. 519 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: But speaking of feminism and pie making, we did find 520 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: a paper that looked into dessert making not so much 521 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: as a culinary action, what how that relates to women's 522 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: gender roles, but how we refer to women often in 523 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: terms of pie and other sweets. This was a paper 524 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: by Caitlin Hines called Rebaking the Pie but Woman as 525 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: dessert metaphor, and she talks about how, for instance, by 526 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,919 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty four, the word tart, which is a type 527 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: of pie, it had the slang definition of a term 528 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: of approval to a young woman for whom some attraction 529 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: is felt. And you know, here women being referred to 530 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: as slices of pie or slices of cake, which Hinz 531 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: talks about how that implies objectification, sexual consumption, and that 532 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 1: like pie, women are a simply meant for sharing. Yeah, 533 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 1: she writes as desserts, women can be bought, sold, eaten, 534 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: elaborately decorated, admired for their outward appearance, dismissed as sinful 535 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: and decadent, etcetera, etcetera. And she cites the late Alan 536 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: Dundee's who was a UC Berkeley antropology professor, and basically 537 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,959 Speaker 1: he discusses the socially sanctioned saccharine quality of females, which 538 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: is confirmed later in life by such terms of endearment 539 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: a sweetheart, honey bunch, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And so basically, 540 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, saying that these terms, these sugary terms, are 541 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: a way to dismiss women, kind of in one fell swoop. 542 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: But I mean, the thing is that reading this paper 543 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,479 Speaker 1: about women as dessert metaphors, like I understand it, there's 544 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: obviously a lot of power in language. And when you 545 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: stop and think about the terms and the slang that 546 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: we used to refer to people who are not exactly 547 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: like ourselves, you can uncover some problematic things in that. 548 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: But with this whole conversation about piemaking and whether or 549 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: not it might be wrong to call someone sweetie pie, 550 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: I think I don't think that that that's the issue. 551 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: I don't see anything wrong with you know, women making pies. 552 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: I love to make pies. I love to eat pies. Um. 553 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's like where I feel like when 554 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: in reading that kind of uh analysis, that kind of 555 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: really specific analysis on the intersection of pies and desserts 556 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: and feminism, what did you think was it? Is it 557 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: kind of too much at that point? I I mean 558 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: I tried to keep an open mind reading that paper, um, 559 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: because I see what she's getting at as far as 560 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: using terminology, using slang to dismiss women or or somehow 561 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: reduce them. Um. But yeah, I mean it's it's it's 562 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: the paper talking about women as pastry. But that ties 563 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 1: perfectly back to what Nigella Lawson was saying in terms 564 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: of don't dismiss baking as a less legitimate or respectable 565 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: form of a culinary art compared to something like molecular gastronomy, 566 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: something that seems you know, more scientific, um or or 567 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: more male you know. Um. So it's fascinating when you 568 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: sit and think about the gender politics tied up with pie, 569 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: because even today it's still considered a female province. The 570 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: making of the pie There was this blog post over 571 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: at Chow from two thousand seven talking about cookbook that 572 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: was put out at the time by Patti Pinner called 573 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: Sweetie Pies an Uncommon collection of womanish observations with pie, 574 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: and the blogger Kara's Wairo talks about how the entire 575 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: cookbook is a gender specific spin on the art of 576 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: pie baking. Yeah, she quotes Pinner who says, uh that 577 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: she is a descendant of that generation where a woman's appearance, manner, 578 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: and domestic prowess were synonymous with her feminine identity and 579 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: that kind of uh in light of talking about baking 580 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 1: and a woman's place and feminism and everything. I mean, 581 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: that's kind of that takes you aback for a minute. Um, 582 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: But I think Penner is celebrating pies and baking and 583 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: just that that kind of artistry that goes along with it. 584 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: Is weird that she said that she's a descendant of 585 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: that generation where you're feminine identity was synonymous with your 586 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: domestic prowess. But it's I feel like we have more 587 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: maybe freedom to reclaim a lot of that stuff these days. 588 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: There has been a revival of domestic arts, whether it 589 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: is piemaking, or baking or knitting or canning, whatever it 590 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: might be. I feel like a lot of women are 591 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 1: circling back to these kinds of slower ways of making 592 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: things in the home. Yeah. Well, I mean yeah, we've 593 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,479 Speaker 1: talked about stuff like that before, like even with our 594 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: Manic Pixie dream Girl podcast, you know where it's like, well, 595 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 1: you shouldn't dis you know, girly things or baking or 596 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: cupcakes just because they make you think of some type 597 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 1: of woman that you don't like, or you know whatever. 598 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: We shouldn't dismiss people's pastimes or eating habits or baking 599 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: habits just because we also tend to associate them with 600 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: a bygone era exactly. Yeah. And by the same token, 601 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: we shouldn't dismiss maybe men who want to get in 602 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: on the pie baking game. I for one would love 603 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: it if my boyfriend never wanted to make me a pie, 604 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: I should just ask him. I bet he just baked 605 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 1: me a pie. Bake me a pie, please, sir um. 606 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: But speaking of which, there was a recent post by 607 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: this guy, Brian O'Neal over the Post Gazette and m 608 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: He talks about how he made his very first pie. 609 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: He was like, I know, This probably doesn't sound like 610 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: a big deal to you, but he says, quote, I 611 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: was born in ninety six, a member of one of 612 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: the last generations for which gender roles were rigidly defined, 613 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: at least in my house, and it was a celebratory 614 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: act for him. He was like, I made an apple 615 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: pie and it was delicious, and I didn't make the 616 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: crust myself, but I still felt pretty cool doing this thing. 617 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: That would have felt like a subversive act for a 618 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,399 Speaker 1: man of my generation. Yeah. I mean if he had 619 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: done that, if he had been that age the year 620 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: he was born making that pie, people would be like, 621 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: what are you? Why are you doing that? Let your 622 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: wife do that? Why are you cooking that pie? Where's 623 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: your Betty Draper? You need some scotch go sit down. Um. 624 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: But speaking of male bakers, you know now we want 625 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 1: to hear from you, guys. We want to know whether 626 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: or not you're baking pies, ladies, anybody else. What's your 627 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: favorite pie? Do you enjoy piemaking or are you more 628 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,760 Speaker 1: more of a cake person like Caroline. I'm not gonna judge, really, 629 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: I I don't discriminate against any sweets, but you know what, 630 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: it's so there are plenty of people who prefer the 631 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: cake over the pie. I just I'm just more in 632 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: the pie camp, which may or may not have been 633 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: part of my interests of pursuing this podcast topic. Um 634 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: but yet again, I do feel like pie is one 635 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: of those topics where it seems so simple and unassuming, 636 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: but when you start unpacking the history, there's so much. Yeah. 637 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: I mean it fed entire cultures for centuries. It was 638 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,720 Speaker 1: the way that people sustain themselves. That it was brought 639 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: to the New world, you know, it was entertainment. It 640 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: was Yeah, so many different things. And bride pie I 641 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: like that idea. Screw wedding case, savory bread. Bye, I'll 642 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: haven't mid spie my wedding. Please, So send us all 643 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: of your pie related thoughts and any pictures of pie. 644 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: I'll appreciate that any pie recipes send them all our way, 645 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: because it's the holidays and it's time to eat, folks. 646 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: So email us. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is 647 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: where you can send your letters. You can also tweet us, 648 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: tweet us pie picks at Mom's Stuff podcast, or you 649 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: can also message us on Facebook and we've got a 650 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: couple of messages to share with you when we come 651 00:41:54,320 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: right back from a quick break and now back to 652 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,399 Speaker 1: our letters. So we have a couple of letters here 653 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:17,760 Speaker 1: from our episode on Fettion Affection Revolution, and this first 654 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: one is from Lisa. She writes, I am a plus 655 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,280 Speaker 1: size woman, size twenty four, and I'm also a teacher 656 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: at a local high school. I've always been self conscious 657 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: about my weight because I haven't always been plus size. 658 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: I realized that I have a great power to influence 659 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: how young women see themselves just by the way that 660 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: I talk about and dress myself. Can it be hard 661 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: to find fashionable plus size clothes? You bet you, But 662 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: the hunt is with it for me, and I am 663 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: still young seven and I know that my students are 664 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: looking at me as a role model. What kind of 665 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: message would I send if I work clothes it didn't 666 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: fit properly, baggy or too tight, or if I hunched 667 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,720 Speaker 1: and was constantly trying to hide my body. I'm a fun, smart, 668 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: likable payer sent in My weight has nothing to do 669 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,439 Speaker 1: with that. I try to look my best every day 670 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: so my students see that it doesn't matter what size 671 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: you are if you love yourself and love others. I 672 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,760 Speaker 1: want to show them a woman who is not ashamed 673 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: of herself in any way, a woman who knows it's 674 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: what's inside your head and your heart that matters. And 675 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: how do I accomplish that by my demeanor, my carriage, 676 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: and my style. Let's stop worrying about our size and 677 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: worry more about our self worth and the messages we 678 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: are sending to the next generation of women. Here here, Lisa, 679 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: good for you. Um I have a letter here from 680 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: Danielle about our Fatchion episode, and I just want to 681 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: say thank you for including the picture of your freaking 682 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 1: adorable dog. I squealed. Um. So, Danielle says, I'm an overweight, 683 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: twenty three year old woman and I have struggled with 684 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 1: finding cute clothes that are well made for years. I 685 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: am so glad that you did a podcast on the 686 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,919 Speaker 1: world of Fatchan. And even though I'm a plus size woman, 687 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: I had never heard of the Fatchan movement. I don't 688 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 1: know how that is even possible, but I loved it. 689 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: Although I want the women who is trying to get 690 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 1: healthier and work out a few times a week, which 691 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,359 Speaker 1: is when I tend to listen to you a podcast, 692 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: I do love being able to find clothes that fit 693 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: my body now so that I can still look and 694 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,720 Speaker 1: feel good while trying to maintain a healthy lifestyle. Also, 695 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: you ask for places to find cute plus sized clothing, 696 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: and one site that I found that I really like 697 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: is simply be dot com. I just got a Christmas 698 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: dress from there and I'm eagerly awaiting. It's a rival 699 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,280 Speaker 1: so awesome. Thank you for your letter, Daniel, and thanks 700 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 1: to everybody who's written in. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot 701 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: com is where you can send your letters. You can 702 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, find us 703 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,839 Speaker 1: on Facebook and like us while you're at it. We're 704 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 1: on Tumbler as well at stuff Mom Never Told You 705 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: dot tumbler dot com, and also on Instagram. Oh please 706 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: instagram us your pie pictures. We are at stuff Mom 707 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: Never Told You. And last, but certainly not least, you 708 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: should head over to YouTube and check us out over 709 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,839 Speaker 1: there too. We're at YouTube dot com, slash stuff Mom 710 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:03,359 Speaker 1: Never Told You, and don't forget to subscribe for more 711 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how 712 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com