WEBVTT - Wesley Morris & Robert Margouleff on Stevie Wonder 0:00:15.516 --> 0:00:21.396 Pushkin. Hey, y'all, we have a bit of a two 0:00:21.476 --> 0:00:24.716 for for you today in honor of the great Stevie Wonder. 0:00:25.436 --> 0:00:27.876 We'll be hearing from Robert margoliv later in the show. 0:00:27.996 --> 0:00:30.836 He along with his partner Malcolm Cecil, were responsible for 0:00:30.916 --> 0:00:35.116 engineering for Stevie's records from his classic seventies run and 0:00:35.196 --> 0:00:39.236 introduced Stevie to the Tanto synthesizer. But more on that later. 0:00:40.116 --> 0:00:43.476 First up, a quick chat with critic extraordinaire Wesley Morris. 0:00:43.956 --> 0:00:46.916 Wesley is a two time Politzer winner, once for his 0:00:46.996 --> 0:00:49.476 work with The Boston Globe, then just a couple of 0:00:49.516 --> 0:00:52.356 years ago for his phenomenal writing with The New York Times. 0:00:53.116 --> 0:00:56.876 His latest project is an Audible original about Stevie called 0:00:57.316 --> 0:01:00.356 The Wonder of Stevie. It's a great look into Stevie's 0:01:00.396 --> 0:01:05.116 vaunted seventies output that culminates with an insane conversation between Wesley, 0:01:05.276 --> 0:01:09.956 Stevie himself, and President Obama. Let's hear my brief conversation 0:01:10.036 --> 0:01:12.876 with Wesley about this project. Please be sure to check 0:01:12.876 --> 0:01:16.476 it out, The Wonder of Stevie on Audible. Great job 0:01:17.796 --> 0:01:18.396 to tell you. 0:01:18.316 --> 0:01:21.916 That you must know, well, we're all really proud of it. 0:01:21.956 --> 0:01:24.836 We're all really proud of it, and you just never know. 0:01:25.276 --> 0:01:27.476 You make a thing and it's not on it once it, 0:01:27.756 --> 0:01:29.876 once it leaves, once it goes out into the world, 0:01:29.876 --> 0:01:31.836 it's not yours anymore to everybody else's. 0:01:31.876 --> 0:01:34.436 So what was the genesis of the project? How did 0:01:34.436 --> 0:01:35.236 the whole thing come together? 0:01:37.236 --> 0:01:39.556 Well, it was the idea of a woman named Anna 0:01:39.596 --> 0:01:44.956 Holmes who wanted to think about the meaning of these albums. 0:01:45.756 --> 0:01:48.676 And she came to me with this idea and I said, Anna, 0:01:49.156 --> 0:01:51.396 you're really smart, you have a lot of passion. 0:01:51.996 --> 0:01:53.116 You should host this show. 0:01:53.916 --> 0:01:56.956 And she said, the reason I'm telling you about this 0:01:56.996 --> 0:01:59.876 show is because I think you should host it. And 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:04.636 the the way I understood the show initially was that 0:02:05.276 --> 0:02:08.836 I would be in some conversation with Stevie wonder about 0:02:08.956 --> 0:02:12.676 the streak in these albums. And then the other thing 0:02:12.716 --> 0:02:14.556 I thought would happen was that I would be in 0:02:14.636 --> 0:02:18.396 conversation with like a Questlove about these albums and that 0:02:18.396 --> 0:02:20.436 would be it, and it would take a month to do, 0:02:21.156 --> 0:02:23.316 and we'd have a cute little thing out into the 0:02:23.316 --> 0:02:25.036 world and everybody will listen to it in loven and 0:02:25.156 --> 0:02:28.396 that would be it. But that is definitely not what happened. 0:02:28.916 --> 0:02:34.796 What happened was I went to Stevie Wonder University and 0:02:35.156 --> 0:02:39.156 took all my love of these albums, and it's turned 0:02:39.156 --> 0:02:43.116 my feelings into knowledge, turned all of my enthusiasm and 0:02:43.156 --> 0:02:47.076 passion and feelings into a form of scholarship. But there 0:02:47.076 --> 0:02:53.756 are lots and lots of really smart Stevie scholars out there, 0:02:53.796 --> 0:03:00.476 actual academics, professors, musicologists, music theorists. And then there's me. 0:03:00.636 --> 0:03:03.276 I'm a critic, and I have my own set of 0:03:03.876 --> 0:03:09.396 tools by which to I mean, think through articular late 0:03:09.916 --> 0:03:14.316 what this album, what these albums, what this man his 0:03:14.316 --> 0:03:19.116 his ingenuity, what it all means. And we spent a 0:03:19.116 --> 0:03:23.996 few years realizing, you know what we all what I 0:03:24.076 --> 0:03:27.156 the folks at Higher Ground and the folks at Pineapple, 0:03:27.276 --> 0:03:30.876 the production team brought to the telling of this story 0:03:31.516 --> 0:03:34.836 and the thinking through these albums as cultural monuments. 0:03:35.396 --> 0:03:38.436 How much did you know about these records going into 0:03:38.436 --> 0:03:40.876 it versus how much? Like how much did you learn 0:03:40.916 --> 0:03:43.636 through the process of making this? Uh? 0:03:44.116 --> 0:03:45.036 How much did I know? 0:03:45.276 --> 0:03:45.516 Well? 0:03:45.556 --> 0:03:49.836 I mean I had listened before we began production, and 0:03:49.916 --> 0:03:51.756 when I was hemming in a hang about whether I 0:03:51.836 --> 0:03:54.076 could do it, whether I was the right person to 0:03:54.116 --> 0:03:58.236 do it. I had listened to all I've listened to 0:03:58.276 --> 0:04:00.796 all the albums a lot, and I had, you know, 0:04:00.836 --> 0:04:03.516 I think the thing that changed for me through the 0:04:03.556 --> 0:04:05.956 making of the album was I didn't know a lot 0:04:05.996 --> 0:04:08.716 about Stevie Wonder. I didn't know a lot about his life. 0:04:08.716 --> 0:04:11.476 I didn't know a lot about the Motown years. I 0:04:11.556 --> 0:04:13.796 mean I knew all of these things. I could answer 0:04:14.036 --> 0:04:16.876 questions on Trivia Night, if you know what I mean 0:04:17.076 --> 0:04:23.516 about what years, what titles, things like, you know, tidbits, factoids, 0:04:24.676 --> 0:04:30.996 certain biographical moments, but being immersed in the making, I 0:04:30.996 --> 0:04:34.676 didn't know anything about Bob Margoleff and Malcolm Cecil. I 0:04:34.676 --> 0:04:36.916 didn't know anything about those guys. I didn't know about Tanto, 0:04:37.156 --> 0:04:37.996 I didn't know. 0:04:37.996 --> 0:04:40.316 What did What did you make of Robert Margalov? I 0:04:40.316 --> 0:04:41.596 mean he's caring around a lot. 0:04:41.716 --> 0:04:44.516 I mean, you know, I make a show, I used 0:04:44.556 --> 0:04:46.556 to make a show. I still make a show with 0:04:46.676 --> 0:04:51.076 another person, and just thinking a lot about yeah, still 0:04:51.116 --> 0:04:55.636 processing with Jay Wortham, and just thinking a lot about 0:04:55.836 --> 0:05:00.356 what it is to be in constant collaboration with another person. 0:05:00.356 --> 0:05:04.436 It can become a little bit like a marriage. And 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:07.836 you I mean, it's not like a marriage. It's a marriage, 0:05:08.516 --> 0:05:13.116 and you know, depending on how things go in the relationship, 0:05:14.996 --> 0:05:19.796 when a person, when someone like Stevie makes a change, Uh, 0:05:20.316 --> 0:05:24.916 and I don't I mean, I'm gonna use the framework 0:05:24.956 --> 0:05:29.676 of marriage and divorce basically in some form or another 0:05:29.876 --> 0:05:32.436 or another says I'd like a divorce. Although that is 0:05:32.476 --> 0:05:35.076 not what Stevie did to Bob and Malcolm, which is 0:05:35.116 --> 0:05:40.396 partially why Bob has the feelings he has. He didn't articulate, 0:05:41.476 --> 0:05:44.596 I mean, I don't remember that conversation as being Bob 0:05:45.076 --> 0:05:48.196 being salty. Bob just had a lot of clarifications to 0:05:48.236 --> 0:05:52.196 make right and to like make sure it was clear. 0:05:52.436 --> 0:05:54.036 To us. 0:05:56.356 --> 0:06:00.636 The degree of the collaboration without you know, he's not 0:06:01.556 --> 0:06:05.796 so presumptuous as to like claim ownership or anything. But 0:06:05.916 --> 0:06:08.196 you know, I mean, anytime you make something with somebody, 0:06:08.316 --> 0:06:12.476 the question around whose is what or what is who's 0:06:13.596 --> 0:06:18.516 get really muddy. And everybody who's worked with Stevie has 0:06:18.556 --> 0:06:24.636 a different relationship to what their role is in the 0:06:24.676 --> 0:06:29.756 collaboration and the creative process. And you know, Bob understands 0:06:29.796 --> 0:06:34.556 that his relationship with Malcolm and Stevie was critical for 0:06:35.236 --> 0:06:40.156 the albums they worked on together. And you know, their 0:06:40.236 --> 0:06:43.996 breakup is still with him in some way, and I think, 0:06:44.356 --> 0:06:46.636 you know, he doesn't think songs Nikuel Life is a 0:06:46.716 --> 0:06:49.956 very good album compared to the ones they made together. Yeah, 0:06:50.156 --> 0:06:52.116 that just sounds like divorce talking. 0:06:52.636 --> 0:06:55.876 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, and to continue with that sort 0:06:55.876 --> 0:06:59.116 of metaphor in terms of their partnership, it's like the 0:06:59.196 --> 0:07:03.916 divorce wasn't so formal as to allow for the normal 0:07:04.076 --> 0:07:06.316 sort of maybe grieving process. Feel like there's a lot 0:07:06.396 --> 0:07:10.036 unresolved there because of the way in which their relationship dissolved, 0:07:10.196 --> 0:07:14.236 you know, with there not being much paperwork accounting for 0:07:14.316 --> 0:07:14.916 much of assist. 0:07:15.036 --> 0:07:16.636 But they say nobody's signed anything. 0:07:16.956 --> 0:07:20.916 It's crazy, you know, it's kind of wild. I learned 0:07:20.916 --> 0:07:24.836 a lot talking to Robert and listening to the Wonder 0:07:24.876 --> 0:07:27.276 of Stevie, because I mean, to your point, I knew 0:07:27.276 --> 0:07:29.516 all the albums, I knew all the stuff before this, 0:07:29.636 --> 0:07:32.316 I knew the dates, I knew some of the players 0:07:32.316 --> 0:07:35.476 on the records. But you know, Stevie, it seems like 0:07:35.516 --> 0:07:38.316 by design hasn't put a ton out about himself. You know, 0:07:38.356 --> 0:07:43.156 there hasn't been the Keith Richard style biography that he 0:07:43.596 --> 0:07:46.036 rightly deserves. There hasn't even been like a lot of them, 0:07:46.276 --> 0:07:48.836 they haven't working on one, but oh he's working on them. 0:07:48.916 --> 0:07:53.156 Is that true? I'm he had been. I don't know. 0:07:53.636 --> 0:07:56.636 I know the person who was working on it with him, 0:07:56.716 --> 0:07:59.196 I don't I need to get a status update from 0:07:59.196 --> 0:08:00.996 that person, very prominent person. 0:08:02.676 --> 0:08:04.236 Maybe better to say out of it was like, I 0:08:04.236 --> 0:08:04.636 don't know. 0:08:05.396 --> 0:08:09.396 I'm just saying I don't know, but I think that 0:08:09.436 --> 0:08:12.236 he is somebody who, like a lot of our great 0:08:12.276 --> 0:08:16.876 black musicians, you know, great black people. You know, look 0:08:16.916 --> 0:08:18.836 at the Harlem Renaissance. How many of those people have 0:08:19.236 --> 0:08:24.156 biographies written about them. And we're talking about a person, 0:08:24.716 --> 0:08:27.436 you know, who's still alive and has sort of been 0:08:27.636 --> 0:08:32.316 under under examined. 0:08:33.236 --> 0:08:34.916 There are several books about. 0:08:34.756 --> 0:08:39.276 Him, mostly written from the standpoint of musicology. But what 0:08:39.596 --> 0:08:43.516 is it about this man and his relationship to music 0:08:43.516 --> 0:08:51.116 that is just so innovative and pleasing and boundary combining 0:08:51.516 --> 0:08:53.316 es Yeah, because a lot of what we did was 0:08:53.396 --> 0:08:58.476 kind of cobbling together his life from different sources. And 0:08:58.836 --> 0:09:02.156 you know, I also think that in a lot of ways, 0:09:02.916 --> 0:09:06.756 when you become one of the rushmore objects, right, like 0:09:06.796 --> 0:09:10.476 a person who will live on in the form of 0:09:10.556 --> 0:09:15.036 statuary in one way or another, I think that those 0:09:15.156 --> 0:09:18.076 people sort of don't know what is true about their 0:09:18.156 --> 0:09:23.516 lives anymore. So I mean it really is up to 0:09:23.956 --> 0:09:27.956 journalism and criticism to kind of make sense of it. 0:09:28.156 --> 0:09:30.996 But I also think that Stevie telling his own story 0:09:30.996 --> 0:09:33.956 in his own words is something that someone like it 0:09:34.076 --> 0:09:37.196 needs to happen as well. You know, I think about like, 0:09:37.276 --> 0:09:39.636 there are a couple of really great books about Sammy Davis Junior, 0:09:40.276 --> 0:09:45.116 but the two autobiographies that he wrote those are also fantastic. 0:09:45.356 --> 0:09:48.636 Yeah. Yeah, you know, you say that you've made it 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:52.316 without Stevie, and it's obviously true. But even at talking 0:09:52.356 --> 0:09:54.036 to you, I forgot that you didn't make it with him, 0:09:54.036 --> 0:09:57.076 because he just somehow Stevie is ever present through the 0:09:57.116 --> 0:09:59.116 whole thing, which I means, I don't know. It's like 0:09:59.156 --> 0:10:01.996 what an accomplishment is over it makes it. I mean, 0:10:02.636 --> 0:10:06.956 it's not a cold calculated analysis at all. The joy 0:10:06.996 --> 0:10:09.116 of the albums, the joy of Steve, I mean, it's all. 0:10:09.276 --> 0:10:12.116 I mean, it's just the way that you structured it, 0:10:12.196 --> 0:10:16.356 wrote it, voiced it, produced it, and everyone else at 0:10:16.356 --> 0:10:19.316 Pineapple and Higher Ground. I mean, it's just like phenomenal job, 0:10:19.516 --> 0:10:21.476 so so good, thank you, thank you. 0:10:21.556 --> 0:10:23.956 It was a real It was an honor and a pleasure, 0:10:24.796 --> 0:10:29.476 like deeply, deeply rewarding to spend that much time thinking 0:10:29.596 --> 0:10:34.516 about this man and what he made, and to like 0:10:35.076 --> 0:10:40.876 experience that with you know, the Pineapple folks and the 0:10:40.956 --> 0:10:45.796 higher Ground folks and also the people who made the music, right, 0:10:46.436 --> 0:10:49.036 like to look at to be able to look at 0:10:49.076 --> 0:10:52.996 Greg filling Gains's face, remembering what it was like to 0:10:53.156 --> 0:10:55.756 like outplay Stevie on something. 0:10:55.796 --> 0:10:58.276 When you got contusion bit where you have Greg filling 0:10:58.316 --> 0:11:00.596 Gains in front of you and he's talking about how 0:11:00.636 --> 0:11:03.716 Stevie couldn't play the line on Contusions and he just 0:11:03.796 --> 0:11:05.476 is like, I can do it, you know, and Stevie 0:11:05.556 --> 0:11:07.916 just puts him into captaincy and he just nails it. 0:11:08.316 --> 0:11:09.276 And then it's just the. 0:11:09.476 --> 0:11:13.996 Kids by the way, right, Like, you know, Stevie's in 0:11:13.996 --> 0:11:16.316 his seventies now, but when this music was being made, 0:11:16.316 --> 0:11:17.276 he was a kid. 0:11:17.676 --> 0:11:18.756 Yeah, Like, this is. 0:11:18.716 --> 0:11:22.676 A twenty one to twenty six year old, barely twenty 0:11:22.716 --> 0:11:26.356 six year old making this music. Think about that, this 0:11:26.476 --> 0:11:27.116 is a kid. 0:11:27.556 --> 0:11:32.836 It's unbelievable. Well, Wesley, thanks so much for making it. 0:11:36.156 --> 0:11:36.236 You. 0:11:36.436 --> 0:11:39.476 I mean, yeah, I can't, I can't, I can't say 0:11:39.596 --> 0:11:41.596 enough good things about the project. It's incredible. 0:11:41.676 --> 0:11:43.516 Oh thank you, I really appreciate that. 0:11:44.356 --> 0:11:47.516 Next up is a conversation with the pioneering electronic music 0:11:47.556 --> 0:11:51.756 producer and engineer Robert Margolev. In sixty eight, together with 0:11:51.796 --> 0:11:55.836 Malcolm Cecil, Robert built the largest analog synthesizer in the world, 0:11:56.076 --> 0:12:00.036 a be myth called Tonto. Two years later, the duo 0:12:00.116 --> 0:12:03.396 released Zero Time that made waves in the experimental music 0:12:03.436 --> 0:12:07.316 world and caught the attention of one Stevie Wonder, who 0:12:07.316 --> 0:12:10.756 at the time was in transition and maybe even leaving Motown. 0:12:11.196 --> 0:12:13.996 Over the next four years, Stevie worked closely with Robert 0:12:14.076 --> 0:12:16.956 Cecil and Tonto to record a string of albums known 0:12:16.996 --> 0:12:22.276 as Stevie's classic period Music of my Mind, Talking Book Intervisions, 0:12:22.356 --> 0:12:26.516 and Fulfillinginess's first Finale. On today's episode, I talked to 0:12:26.596 --> 0:12:29.796 Robert Margolev about Stevie's creative process in the studio during 0:12:29.796 --> 0:12:32.556 this time. Robert also recalls the way in which Stevie 0:12:32.676 --> 0:12:36.916 changed after surviving a near fatal car accident in seventy three, 0:12:36.996 --> 0:12:40.716 and how Robert Cecil, Stevie and Tonto brought new life 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:43.876 to Hendrix's famed electric Lady Studio in New York, just 0:12:43.916 --> 0:12:50.476 a year after Jimmy died. This is broken record liner 0:12:50.516 --> 0:12:54.036 notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my 0:12:54.116 --> 0:12:59.196 conversation with Robert Margolev. Where in New York were you 0:12:59.396 --> 0:13:00.236 born and raised? 0:13:00.836 --> 0:13:03.876 I was born and raised in a place called Great Neck, 0:13:04.556 --> 0:13:09.036 New York. I used to happily called it the Gilded Ghetto. 0:13:09.436 --> 0:13:13.436 It was very, very Jewish at that time. Now it's 0:13:13.556 --> 0:13:14.796 Aranian and Chinese. 0:13:14.956 --> 0:13:16.956 Is it Long Island? Great Long Island? 0:13:17.036 --> 0:13:19.596 Yeah? Or you have to say Long Island, Long Island. 0:13:19.636 --> 0:13:22.756 You can have a glass of water. I grew up 0:13:22.836 --> 0:13:27.916 on Long Island until I was in tenth grade, and 0:13:27.956 --> 0:13:31.316 then I had the great fortune of going to his school, 0:13:31.316 --> 0:13:36.396 and a private school in Massachusetts called the Stockbridge School. 0:13:36.516 --> 0:13:39.596 Arlo Guthrie went there afterwards. But it was a very 0:13:40.076 --> 0:13:43.956 small school. They have to understand now. I graduated nineteen 0:13:44.036 --> 0:13:47.436 fifty seven. I think that was before you were born. Yes, okay, 0:13:48.596 --> 0:13:52.956 it was a very interesting time. The school was run 0:13:53.036 --> 0:13:56.316 by a guy named Hans Mater, who was really an 0:13:56.356 --> 0:14:02.076 experimental educator. Born in Germany, had very hard time with 0:14:02.116 --> 0:14:06.756 his father, who was a Nazi basically, and Hans had 0:14:06.796 --> 0:14:09.716 to leave the country and he got interned in Hawaii 0:14:10.996 --> 0:14:14.556 during the war. He was a progressive educator, and in 0:14:14.596 --> 0:14:17.956 the hallway of the school building was a sign that says, 0:14:18.036 --> 0:14:21.476 all human beings are born free and equal in dignity 0:14:21.516 --> 0:14:25.676 and rights. And that otto is something that I've lived 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:29.956 with all my life. It's really sort of might change 0:14:29.996 --> 0:14:34.996 my thinking about humanism, about equality, and about all those 0:14:35.116 --> 0:14:38.236 kinds of things that were going on around the time 0:14:38.396 --> 0:14:42.996 of nineteen fifty seven. Worse, my senior year. Nineteen fifty 0:14:43.036 --> 0:14:47.116 seven was when President Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act, 0:14:47.836 --> 0:14:50.996 and there were kids that were being escorted, little girls 0:14:51.036 --> 0:14:54.356 being black, little girls being escorted to school in the 0:14:54.396 --> 0:14:59.716 South by armed marshals. Right, and was very passioned and 0:14:59.916 --> 0:15:07.316 very racial, and very heavy, heavily racial, and Stockbridge was international, interracial, 0:15:07.796 --> 0:15:11.236 and also was really round upon and pup the private 0:15:11.276 --> 0:15:15.076 schools at that time. The reason I talk about it 0:15:15.156 --> 0:15:19.916 now is because I'm ten years older than Stevie Wonder. Okay, 0:15:20.516 --> 0:15:24.596 So what Stevie came on the scene for us in 0:15:24.716 --> 0:15:28.196 the seventy two, I'd already been down the road of 0:15:28.236 --> 0:15:33.996 civil rights, Okay. I already was Abernathy and Martin Luther 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:37.356 King and was already in my head, and I already 0:15:37.956 --> 0:15:41.756 had been trained in this kind of humanist tradition. And 0:15:41.916 --> 0:15:45.196 when Stevie came on board, when we started working on 0:15:45.276 --> 0:15:49.876 songs like Living for the City, I knew right then 0:15:49.996 --> 0:15:52.836 that he and I really we might have traveled different 0:15:52.916 --> 0:15:57.476 roads to the same place. You know. It was it 0:15:57.556 --> 0:16:01.476 was that close, that kind of intensity about race relations. 0:16:02.116 --> 0:16:05.516 And also it was a time when the music business 0:16:05.596 --> 0:16:10.596 was also undergoing a kind of interesting change. You know, 0:16:10.676 --> 0:16:12.996 you call it R and B. I call it the 0:16:12.996 --> 0:16:17.996 Blues and the Jews. Okay, it was a very different 0:16:18.156 --> 0:16:22.036 environment in the East Coast in New York, the brill Building, 0:16:22.076 --> 0:16:25.836 a lot of Jewish songwriters working with motown artists, a 0:16:25.836 --> 0:16:30.316 lot of independent black labels coming up. The major labels 0:16:30.356 --> 0:16:33.876 really weren't in the late fifties and early sixties, really 0:16:33.956 --> 0:16:37.956 weren't that interested in signing black artists. Black music was 0:16:37.996 --> 0:16:41.996 called race music, right, and the big labels didn't want 0:16:41.996 --> 0:16:45.036 to touch it. So the bunch of Jewish guys all over, 0:16:45.276 --> 0:16:49.676 you know, really could relate to it. Strangely enough, although 0:16:49.716 --> 0:16:55.236 it's not really leaned upon, but Jewish music during that time, 0:16:55.276 --> 0:16:59.396 a lot of Eastern European guys right with Klesmer music right, Okay, 0:16:59.796 --> 0:17:03.596 it was melismatic, just as melismatic as black singing when 0:17:03.596 --> 0:17:08.476 they sing a thousand notes around one bar. It was improvised, 0:17:08.476 --> 0:17:10.916 A lot of it was. And also a lot of 0:17:10.956 --> 0:17:13.996 the Eastern Europeans were a lot of the major classical 0:17:14.036 --> 0:17:18.796 players around that time, Heipitz and all these Eastern If 0:17:18.796 --> 0:17:20.956 you wanted a great violin player, you had to find 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:25.556 a Russian, right. It was a sort of a different vibe, 0:17:25.956 --> 0:17:29.076 and the majors in this country weren't interested in recording 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:32.716 race music. It wasn't until Jerry Wexler, who was a 0:17:32.796 --> 0:17:36.796 producer early on at Atlantic, came up with a new 0:17:36.916 --> 0:17:39.356 name for it, and it was called Rhythm and Blues. 0:17:39.956 --> 0:17:42.316 Did Jerry Wexler came up with that on rhythm and Blues? Yes, 0:17:42.676 --> 0:17:43.316 I didn't know that. 0:17:43.956 --> 0:17:47.276 So they came up with a new name, right, And 0:17:47.316 --> 0:17:51.436 now all of a sudden that became interesting. But by 0:17:51.476 --> 0:17:55.236 the time Stevie showed up on the scene, the record 0:17:55.236 --> 0:17:58.396 business was at a place where the black businessmen were 0:17:58.436 --> 0:18:02.796 beginning to start to form black labels. So that's when 0:18:02.796 --> 0:18:10.396 motown really started to flower in Detroit, and they became 0:18:10.596 --> 0:18:15.076 very protective of their own music. It wasn't for a 0:18:15.116 --> 0:18:21.316 while until the big majors started to absorb Motown and 0:18:21.396 --> 0:18:25.036 all the other black labels began to be signed to 0:18:25.196 --> 0:18:28.636 Atlantic or to CBS or now we only have three 0:18:28.676 --> 0:18:29.556 record companies. 0:18:30.036 --> 0:18:33.516 Yeah, right, everything, even Atlantic pretty quickly gets merged in 0:18:33.596 --> 0:18:34.676 with Warner. 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:39.876 Yeah, and all that stuff. So it's turned into another animal. 0:18:40.796 --> 0:18:44.316 But during our time with Steve in New York, it 0:18:44.436 --> 0:18:47.156 was just at the beginning of that kind of vibe. 0:18:47.396 --> 0:18:50.116 Were you tracking music throughout the sixties? 0:18:50.876 --> 0:18:53.236 No. I got out of college. I left early because 0:18:53.276 --> 0:18:56.556 I hated it. It was Vietnam War, and I realized 0:18:56.596 --> 0:19:00.396 that if I wanted to stay alive, I had to 0:19:00.476 --> 0:19:04.156 do something other than being an average student in the 0:19:04.156 --> 0:19:07.876 theater department at lu Okay. 0:19:07.556 --> 0:19:09.636 So that wasn't going to be good enough excuse. 0:19:09.956 --> 0:19:12.916 Yeah, it was not a good enough excuse. And also 0:19:12.956 --> 0:19:15.716 I really wasn't that happy with it. I didn't see where. 0:19:15.956 --> 0:19:19.356 I was studying sociology and stuff, and finally, by accident, 0:19:19.396 --> 0:19:24.076 fell into the theater department and I tried the acting 0:19:24.156 --> 0:19:26.716 part of it. I acted in a play called The 0:19:26.876 --> 0:19:30.636 Violent Eruption of the Volcano Krakatoa, and I came on 0:19:30.676 --> 0:19:33.556 the stage holding a model ship and an admiral's hat 0:19:33.636 --> 0:19:36.436 from the eighteen hundreds, and I felt like an ice 0:19:36.476 --> 0:19:40.156 cream cone, melting ice cream cone. And I came to 0:19:40.196 --> 0:19:43.556 the conclusion after that it was the second lesson that 0:19:43.676 --> 0:19:47.436 I'm fine to sing in the choir. Okay, I was 0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:50.716 before that. I was a chorus professional chorister the New 0:19:50.796 --> 0:19:55.476 York Philharmonic. I sang in the Scolacantorum, the orchestra of 0:19:55.516 --> 0:19:58.836 the New York Philharmonic. I studied at Tanglewood a couple 0:19:58.876 --> 0:20:02.356 of summers, then sang you know, with the Skull under 0:20:02.396 --> 0:20:07.156 the baton of Leonard Bernstein. And I was really fine 0:20:07.196 --> 0:20:09.876 in the choir. But when I started going to music 0:20:09.956 --> 0:20:13.956 school after LU for about a year to Manhattan, I 0:20:13.996 --> 0:20:17.276 realized that I was not going to be an opera singer. 0:20:17.436 --> 0:20:19.796 I didn't have the voice for it. I could memoryate 0:20:19.916 --> 0:20:23.796 somebody off the stage in shadow of Styrophoam cup at 0:20:23.796 --> 0:20:27.396 ten paces, and I knew that I would never want 0:20:27.436 --> 0:20:30.436 to stand as a solo, as a tenor in front 0:20:30.476 --> 0:20:33.676 of an audience of a thousand people. Right, And then 0:20:33.716 --> 0:20:37.356 I learned again at LU being the melting ice cream 0:20:37.396 --> 0:20:40.276 cone on stage. I had to be the man behind 0:20:40.316 --> 0:20:40.836 the curtain. 0:20:41.036 --> 0:20:42.236 So then what did you pivot to? 0:20:42.836 --> 0:20:45.996 I pivoted to studying music, and then I pivoted to 0:20:46.076 --> 0:20:51.916 the US Army, and I became enamored with my other love, 0:20:51.996 --> 0:20:54.596 which is photography. And you can see all my work 0:20:54.636 --> 0:20:58.316 around the room, and I said, I'm going to study 0:20:58.516 --> 0:21:03.036 photography because that's really where I want to go. So 0:21:03.876 --> 0:21:06.476 I signed up and they sent me to Motion Picture 0:21:06.596 --> 0:21:10.836 Combat Photographer school that I was stationed in Germany for 0:21:10.876 --> 0:21:13.556 about two years. I ended up doing a lot of 0:21:13.556 --> 0:21:19.236 still photography, you know, basically general shaking hands, and I 0:21:19.276 --> 0:21:22.316 did a little stuff on the helicopter looking down at 0:21:22.316 --> 0:21:26.116 tire prints. I was stationed in Stuttgart and stuff. 0:21:26.156 --> 0:21:28.676 Was any of it reconnaissance photography. 0:21:28.156 --> 0:21:34.516 Yeah, reconnaissance photography. It's just general photography. But I really 0:21:34.556 --> 0:21:38.076 fell in love there in Stuttgart with the ballet company. 0:21:38.876 --> 0:21:41.916 And it was before don't ask, don't tell, but I 0:21:42.076 --> 0:21:46.196 was not asked and I didn't tell, but I eventually telled, 0:21:46.836 --> 0:21:51.436 and I found my way back to the United States 0:21:51.436 --> 0:21:52.556 a shortened tour. 0:21:52.716 --> 0:21:54.356 Oh they did they get you out? 0:21:54.556 --> 0:21:57.836 Yeah? I finally told them. I said, listen, I'm a 0:21:57.876 --> 0:22:01.516 ballet photographer by night and a combat photographer by day, 0:22:02.276 --> 0:22:05.476 and I was really starting to have some really issues 0:22:05.516 --> 0:22:09.756 with that. And I suddenly found my self living in 0:22:09.796 --> 0:22:15.396 the East Village and got into making filmmaking, and I 0:22:15.436 --> 0:22:19.356 produced and put together a film called Chaal Manhattan with 0:22:19.596 --> 0:22:25.436 Edie Sedgwick, with Edie Sedgwick and all the refugees from 0:22:25.516 --> 0:22:29.116 the factory for May's Place in Maxis, Kansas City, and 0:22:29.436 --> 0:22:33.036 Ellen Stewart and Obama and the Temple of Rock and 0:22:33.156 --> 0:22:37.156 Roll in Phillmore East and Bill Graham and all those 0:22:37.236 --> 0:22:39.996 people and the big cloud of pot smoke, and well, were. 0:22:39.876 --> 0:22:41.996 You shocked by that scene that was happening in the 0:22:42.436 --> 0:22:43.036 at all? 0:22:43.156 --> 0:22:45.036 No, No, I felt right at home. 0:22:45.916 --> 0:22:47.436 Was it a surprise that it existed? 0:22:48.436 --> 0:22:51.676 It was an interesting existence because within the space around 0:22:51.716 --> 0:22:54.716 my loft apartment, which I had on the fifth floor 0:22:54.716 --> 0:22:58.436 of a tenement, around literally around the corner from the Fillmore, 0:22:59.156 --> 0:23:01.756 the place became sort of a salon for all people 0:23:01.756 --> 0:23:05.156 but hanging out from everyone from Tom O'Horgan, who went 0:23:05.196 --> 0:23:10.076 on to direct Hair on Broadway with Hellen's Blessed, and 0:23:10.116 --> 0:23:15.036 the Fillmore and Bill Graham and all his people and 0:23:15.356 --> 0:23:18.796 people from the factory, and everyone ended up in my flat, 0:23:18.876 --> 0:23:21.756 which was a five room railroad flat on the fifth 0:23:21.756 --> 0:23:26.596 floor between Second and Third Avenue, and I felt totally 0:23:26.676 --> 0:23:29.356 at home. I loved going to Max's at night. I 0:23:29.396 --> 0:23:33.116 knew Mickey Ruskin, the guy who ran the place and 0:23:33.156 --> 0:23:36.716 who originated it. And I had a table and Andy 0:23:36.796 --> 0:23:40.156 had a table, and we used to back and forth 0:23:40.236 --> 0:23:44.756 to each other, you know, and it was an interesting time. 0:23:44.796 --> 0:23:47.916 It was very druggy. There was this guy we used 0:23:47.916 --> 0:23:51.116 to call him doctor Robert in Chow Manhattan. I'm not 0:23:51.156 --> 0:23:53.716 going to mention his real name, but he was poking 0:23:53.836 --> 0:23:57.756 up everybody from Hare to President Kennedy to everyone with 0:23:57.876 --> 0:24:00.676 his famous vitamin shots and every. 0:24:00.436 --> 0:24:01.836 Shots that Kennedy was getting. 0:24:02.116 --> 0:24:07.196 Yeah, so it was kind of weird and strange, and 0:24:07.396 --> 0:24:10.316 I kind of took it all to be kind of 0:24:10.316 --> 0:24:13.796 a normal thing. Wow. But the reason I even speak 0:24:13.836 --> 0:24:16.836 about this, Edie lived in my apartment for about six 0:24:17.356 --> 0:24:21.636 or seven months with me, not romantically, but she set 0:24:21.636 --> 0:24:24.476 her room on fire at the Chelsea and that no 0:24:24.516 --> 0:24:28.236 one would take her phone calls after that. So, and 0:24:28.316 --> 0:24:30.396 she looked like a cute tip. Both of her hands 0:24:30.436 --> 0:24:33.996