1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: We just can't seem to catch a break. Huh. So 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: many rough fire seasons, but we made it through. And 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: now there's another risk. All that charred soil and burnt 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: vegetation can lead to floods and mud flow. I know, 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: but you've got this too, And one way to get 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: this is to get this flood insurance. There's no rest 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: for the West, but with flood insurance you can rest 8 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: assured that you're ready for whatever else nature throws at 9 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: you protect the life you've built at flood smart dot 10 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: gov slash Wildfires. Hey guys, this Brian Foot, CEO of 11 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: Humble and hosting the new Humble Nation podcast. As a 12 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: recently public company, we're seeing interest in blockchain, mobile payments, ticketing, 13 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 1: n f t s and more growing faster than ever 14 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: and what we call the digital economy. So join me 15 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: along with high profile gas from the world of pro sports, music, entertainment, 16 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: and other industries. It was we talked about how technologies 17 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: like blockchain are shaping their world ours in the decade 18 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: ahead for all of us in the digital economy. Only 19 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: on Humble Nation, all macrons breay. It's faster than any 20 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: other COVID nineteen variant so it's important for you to 21 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: mask up to limit the spread. In ninety five, K 22 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: ninety five and KF ninety four masks offer the best 23 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: fit and filtration. Don't have these surgical masks or double 24 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: masking with the surgical and fabric mask can also offer 25 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: great protection. So there you go, mask vax and get boosted. 26 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: Learn more at COVID nineteen dot c A dot gov. 27 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the California Department of Public Health. 28 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: I think that con artists are effective because they are 29 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: incredible readers of human beings. What they do better than 30 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: almost anyone else is figure out what makes you personally tick, 31 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: what motivates you, What are your hopes, what are you 32 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: scared of you know? What are your fears, what are 33 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: your hang ups? How do you see the world? What 34 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: are the biases and the lenses through which you view reality? 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: And then what they do is sell that back to you. 36 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: They give you the vision of the world that you 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: already believe in, the vision of yourself that you want 38 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: to see reflected back and not reality. Part of what 39 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,679 Speaker 1: makes a con artists story so compelling is there's usually 40 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: a grain of truth that makes the lie more convincing. 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: So it was with Farra Rosalees and the story she 42 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: was spinning to Ann Friedman about a supposed Clifford Still painting. 43 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: It was a wild tale in which the painting was 44 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: said to be photographed then stored in the trunk of 45 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: a car. Only the car's rear engine had caught fire, 46 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: leaving the painting badly burned and unsellable. Hey, it happened. Actually, 47 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: Carlos was preparing the pieces, and he was threaten them 48 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 1: with her dryers and putting them in coal and hat temperatures, 49 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: so that one got burned because he forgot to turn 50 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: the hair dryer of, and of course it went in flames. 51 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: And now Anne is waiting for the piece. Then what 52 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: is this planation? I'm going to give Carlos Tom It 53 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: will tell them this ironically, and Freedman would later use 54 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: a fragment of the burned painting as proof the paintings 55 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: must have been real, after all, what forgers would intentionally 56 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: burn their carefully crafted artwork. In fact, certain materials in 57 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: the burned fragment typically appeared in authentic Clifford Still paintings, 58 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: a mishap that could have hindered the entire operation became 59 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: instead proof of the paintings Authenticityfra Rosalis is unquestionably the 60 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: most fascinating and elusive character in the story of the 61 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: Notler scandal. While many of the major players have sat 62 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: for interviews on camera or in print over the years, 63 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: Rosalez has only told her story privately to federal prosecutors 64 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: and investigators. Michael Schnayerson and I spoke with Fia Rosales 65 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: in early in a small conference room at the Lowell 66 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: Hotel in New York City. She was accompanied by her 67 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: daughter solely. Rosalez is a shy, diminutive woman with straight, 68 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: dark hair almost shoulder length, and glasses that make her 69 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: look rather academic. She speaks softly, apologizing for her English 70 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: these days. Rosalez lives with her daughter in a small 71 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: Upper east Side apartment, decades before the irresistible hustle of 72 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: New York City life would lure her to Knodlerfira Rosalez 73 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: was born and raised in Mexico. My father had a 74 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: lot of cows, all kind of animals, and we have 75 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: to help with everything, of course, so it was a 76 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: little runch so no other in electricity. I grew up 77 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: with a very difficult father. My childhood. It was very, 78 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: very difficult. Your father was difficult, well, he was abusive. 79 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: You know. We have to get up at four o'clock 80 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: in the morning go and help him to the farm. 81 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: Also helped my mouth, clean places for the animals, gave 82 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: them food, carry water from kilometers away because there was 83 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: no water. And then I went to Mexico City, so 84 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: I studied there. I was a nurse. I became a nurse, 85 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: and then I was a studying medicine. It was my 86 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: dream to be a doctor. Despite her initial dreams of 87 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: working in medicine, Rosalas was intrigued by fine art as well. 88 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: At the school, they teach you about art, about the muralist, 89 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: the big mural list of the country, like the rivera 90 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: Frida Carlo full of them. By the age of nineteen, 91 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: Rosales had a boyfriend, a scruffy, unimpressive restaurateur in Mexico 92 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: City named Carlos Burgon Tinos. Carlos had come from Spain 93 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: to run a little eatery in Mexico's capital city. As 94 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: sister worked as a waitress at the restaurant. One night, 95 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: she called Glafira in a panic. As it turned out, 96 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: a relationship that would be fraught with chaos started no 97 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: less dramatically. She was scared that something happened at the 98 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: restaurant somebody, which it was him. It was drunk and 99 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: he was having problems. So I came to help him, 100 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: kind of rescue him, and from then he never leave 101 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: me alone. Despite their chaotic beginnings, bergen Tinos and Rosava's 102 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: stayed together and would eventually have a daughter together. It 103 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: was Burgon Tinos who first urged Gofra to come to 104 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: the United States. I never want to come here. I 105 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: never thought that it was good to come here. I 106 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: felt sorry for people who came here and went through 107 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: so much, so I never thought to come here. But 108 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: he convinced me to come. He said that it was 109 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: a land of opportunities. Carlos and a first arrived in Chicago. 110 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: They lived there only for a short time before moving 111 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: south to Houston, Texas, where the couple worked many different 112 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: low wage jobs to support themselves. He was working as 113 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: a waiter, he works as a chef. I clean houses. 114 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: I work as a wuitress, bus girl taking care of 115 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: elderly people. From Houston, the couple eventually moved to New 116 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: York City. They arrived one night on a bus at 117 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: an authority. Walking past prostitutes and drug addicts, they carried 118 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: their bags to a shelter on Fourteenth Street, but were 119 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: turned away. They ended up that first night in a 120 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: hotel on West fourteenth Street with communal bathrooms so appalling 121 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: that A used a bucket to avoid them. Longing for 122 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: a more peaceful and safer community, Carlos and A settled 123 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: in Great Neck Long Island. One early business venture for 124 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: the pair was learning how to treat antique furniture, specifically 125 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: how to make new furniture look old. There seemed to 126 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: be some promise in that. Inside a local art gallery, 127 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: one day, Carlos Bergantino stumbled onto a potentially more lucrative idea. 128 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: We were selling antiquities and we came to a gallery 129 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: where they were selling art too, and they say that 130 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: this painting is on the style of and from there 131 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: is where Carlos got the idea of off, if they 132 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: could work with antiquities, why not work with paintings making 133 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: them look old too. Fira says she resisted the idea 134 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: but had no choice. Carlos pressure me. He pressured me, 135 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: he um abuse me physically and and verbally, and he 136 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: also threatened me to take my door away. He couldn't 137 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: go to galeries himself because he held that reputation, so 138 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: I had no choice. As it turned out, Carlos Bergantina's 139 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: was highly skilled at aging new artworks and presenting them 140 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: as old master works. He first used his burgeoning talent 141 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: to sell at least one fake painting presented as a 142 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: work by the artist Jean Michelle Pasquiat. Well, what happened 143 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: was that painting untitled one is a fake Basquiat painting 144 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,479 Speaker 1: that was sold by Christie's back in the early nineties. 145 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 1: That's Richard Gallop, a New York City attorney who specializes 146 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: in the art world. Baskia died. I think in seven 147 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 1: this painting was sold at auction in at Christie's and 148 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: it was consigned to Christie's by Bergon Tinos, and the 149 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: painting was sold as an authentic Bascia and it sold 150 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: for two hundred thousand dollars, and then Tony Shafrazie then 151 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: exhibited it at his gallery and a Bascia show back 152 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: in I think in those days Christie's didn't care about 153 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: verifying or confirming the information or they had a positive 154 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: information about the consigner. So the consigner didn't have to 155 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: give his social Security number, didn't have to prove how 156 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: he knew Bascia, didn't have to give any kind of 157 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: biographical history of the relationship between him and Baskia, how 158 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: he acquieted from the artist. They just took it on consignment, 159 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: put it on the auction floor, and sold it. It's 160 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: kind of amazing, well more than amazing. Before the Bascia 161 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: was consigned to Christie's. Christie's, they had that painting on 162 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: an easel and they called up Gerard Basquia. Gerard was 163 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: John Michelle's father, and they said, we've got this Baska. 164 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: We're not sure it's authentic and everything else. Go over 165 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: and take a look at it. And he went over 166 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: to sixty seven Street with a friend of his and 167 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: they looked at the painting and he didn't think it 168 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: was right. They nevertheless put it in the auction and 169 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: they sold it. Baskia showed that even the most renowned 170 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: auction houses were willing to compromise for the sake of 171 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: a sale, and the con artists were all too ready 172 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: to nudge them along. Bergantino's tried another fast one at 173 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: Christie's in the early nine nineties, damaging whatever small reputation 174 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: he had. Burgundino's got into trouble in the early nineties, 175 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: you know, because he went to Christie's and he bid 176 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: fourred thousand dollars for a South American painting and then 177 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: ran out of the auction room. That's always great when 178 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: a bit of runs out of the auction room. Afterward, 179 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: they can't get his number, literally ran out of there, 180 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: I guess, so. Yeah. And this, of course at the 181 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: same time as the Bosk yacht, right right in and 182 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: around the same time, they were buying paintings all over 183 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: the place and phonying up paintings all over the place. 184 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: On another occasion around Carlos made a successful bid of 185 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: eighty five thou dollars on a nineteenth century Spanish painting, 186 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 1: but then he failed to make payment and take the work. 187 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: Christie sued him as a result. Because of these ham 188 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: handed art deals, money for Carlos and Lapira was tight. 189 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: To make ends meet, sold Halloween pumpkins, she sold flowers. 190 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: At one point, she and Carlos even wholesale lobsters to 191 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: New York restaurants on Long Island's north shore. Carlos had 192 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: come to love fishing and hung out with local fishermen. 193 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: On a whim, he bought an old ambulance and filled 194 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: it with lobsters freshly caught by his pals. Carlos would 195 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: then deliver the lobsters to Manhattan restaurants in the ambulance. 196 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,479 Speaker 1: One day, with lobsters on board, bound for a local restaurant, 197 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: Carlos found himself running late. The restaurant owner threatened to 198 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: fire him if he missed his deadline. In desperation, Carlos 199 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: turned on the ambulances siren and raced through traffic, arriving 200 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: just in time. Gafe urged him not to use the 201 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: siren again, but Carlos wouldn't hear of it. He continued 202 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: his ambulance lobster deliveries, racing down the streets of New 203 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: York with the siren whaling. Eventually, Carlos was pulled over 204 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: by police. Did the ambulance workers need an escort? No, 205 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: Carlos said, no problem there. The cops grew suspicion us 206 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: what was he transporting? Sheepishly, Carlos pulled out two lobsters 207 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: and displayed them in the glare of the spotlight for 208 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: a moment. The cops stood in stunned silence. When Carlos 209 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: explained his mission, the officers collapsed in laughter. More art 210 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: fraud in a minute. We just can't seem to catch 211 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: a break. Huh. So many rough fire seasons, but we 212 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: made it through. And now there's another risk. All that 213 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: charred soil and burnt vegetation can lead to floods and 214 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: mud flow. I know, but you've got this too, and 215 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: one way to get this is to get this flood insurance. 216 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: There's no rest for the West, but with flood insurance 217 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: you can rest assured that you're ready for whatever else 218 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: nature throws at you protect the life you've built at 219 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: flood smart dot gov, slash Wildfires. Hey guys, this Briant Foot, 220 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: CEO of Humble and hosting the new Humble Nation podcast. 221 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: As a recently public company, we're seeing interest in blockchain, 222 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: mobile payments, ticketing, n f t s and more growing 223 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: faster than ever and what we call the digital economy. 224 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: So join me. Along with high profile gusts from the 225 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: world of pro sports, music, entertainment, and other industries. It 226 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: was we talked about how technologies like blockchain are shaping 227 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: their world ours in the decade ahead for all of 228 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: us in the digital economy only on Homble Nation. Speaking 229 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: of renaissance women, we are here with the great Dabby Thomas, 230 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: the newest rock star on the US track and field 231 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: and global track and field scene. And it's just amazing 232 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: what you're what you're contributing to your time on Earth. 233 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: It's just amazing. Academically, athletically as a person, you give 234 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: off a great vibe and you're obviously a good contributor 235 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: to society and people around you from all walks of life. 236 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: When you're passionate about the things that you're doing, it's like, yeah, 237 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: it becomes easy. And all maicron spreads faster than any 238 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: other COVID nineteen variant, so it's important for you to 239 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: mask up to limit the spread. In ninety nine and 240 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: KF ninety four masks offer the best fit and filtration. 241 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: Don't have these surgical masks or double masking with the 242 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: surgical and fabric mask can also offer great protection. So 243 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: there you go, mask vax and get boosted. Learn more 244 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: at COVID nineteen dot c a dot gov brought to 245 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: you by the California Department of Public Health. Forced to 246 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: participate in Carlos's art forgery scheme. Glafira began educating herself 247 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: in art. Carlos's mishaps had revealed the obvious. He needed 248 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: to stay in the Shadowsfra was now the front person. 249 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: The charmer were a surprisingly keen eye for art. Carlos 250 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: sent me to look for customers. I took courses, I 251 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: took sympossums, I took lectures. Carlos saw himself as something 252 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: of an artist. He even took classes at the Art 253 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: Student League on fifty seven Street in New York. For decades, 254 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: the league had drawn up and coming artists, including many 255 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: abstract expressionists, Helen Frankenthaler, Roy Lichtenstein, James Rosenquist, Robert Rauschenberg, 256 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: and Moore. Among the students at the league was a 257 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: Chinese artist named Patian Quan, an immigrant artist taking classes 258 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: and in his spare time selling portraits on street corners 259 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: to earn extra money. He met him in the village 260 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: on sixth Avenue. The painter was there doing portraits. I 261 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: believe people, and that's how I know that he met him. 262 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: Eager to make a market for himself, Kahan also painted 263 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: impressionist landscapes. Carlos could tell they were good, but where 264 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: was the potential for in the style of Impressionist paintings. 265 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: The originals were among the best known artworks in the world. 266 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: Forging a mone water lily painting would be like holding 267 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: up an American flag and claiming it was an original image. 268 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: But creating in the style of works by abstract expressionist 269 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: painters like Pollock, Decooning and the others would work as 270 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: long as Kwan was skilled enough to produce persuasive knockoffs. 271 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: He tried several artists and he came up with he 272 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: was the best. Carlos tried several artists. Can I say 273 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: something about that? There is like that version I see 274 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: on the media that they portrayed Kuan the genius. They 275 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: portrayed me, I am the billion but patient he could 276 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: not do that himself. Of course, he needed guidance. Quan's 277 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: later portrayal in the media as the genius artist would irkra. 278 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: She knew that Carlos's contribution to the paintings was just 279 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: as important as Kwans. Where would Quan be without Carlos's 280 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: idea to create these paintings in the style offa saw 281 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: how much work Quan put into each painting. But she 282 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: also knew just how much of the process was a 283 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: true team effort. The help that I gave it was 284 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: to say if it was okay, if it was not okay, 285 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: I mean. And how about Carlos, what help did he 286 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: give to Well? He gave him the materials, he prepared, 287 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: the materials, he signed for the pieces. The pieces. An 288 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: ambitious artist himself, Quan had grown up in China's island 289 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: city of Joshan and in Shanghai. Early on, he had 290 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: painted portraits of Chairman Mao for display in Chinese workplaces 291 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: and schools, But as the Cultural Revolution ebbed, he had 292 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: participated in a daring abstract art movement in Shanghai. At 293 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: the same time, Quan had begun copying the works of 294 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: well known Chinese artists. It's important to note that in 295 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: Chinese art there's no dishonor in copying others work. It's 296 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: an homage and for that matter, an historical tradition. Many 297 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: artists make a point of creating a sort of split 298 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: screen art, with a traditional painter's picture on one side 299 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: of the campus and a young artist's interpretation of it 300 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: on the other, armed with a student visa and his 301 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: own American dreams. Kuan had come to New York City 302 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: and moved into a tiny white cottage street in wood Haven. 303 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: Queen's surviving as an artist proved difficult, however, instead of 304 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: making his name in America, he had been forced to 305 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: take jobs in construction. Quan's neighbor across the street, Edwin Gardner, 306 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: recalled him as unhappy. Whenever he could, Quan would go 307 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: back to China to visit. When he was over in China, 308 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: he would feel like a rock star. Gardener explained, because 309 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: when he walked out on the street, everybody knew, but 310 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: there was no way to make a living as an 311 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: artist in China in those post cultural revolutionary years. My 312 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: name is Jang Hunt, just Tennis Way put the family 313 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: name first, but you called me unto is perfect. I'm painter. 314 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: Came here in nineteen eighty two. Hang Tou med Quan 315 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: in the United States. They became friends and fellow artists 316 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: through the nineteen eighties. Patient is very quiet person and 317 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: also I heard from other students. Uh. He told me. 318 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: Patient is very frustrated because his wife during Shanghai, his 319 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: own family, his wife, his children's during Shanghai. Here he's 320 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: alone he feels so lonely, and then nobody recogned him, 321 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: nobody know his art, nobody especially his English was not 322 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: so good. Quan The played his art on a street 323 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 1: corner in Greenwich Village along with other Chinese artists who 324 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: had immigrated to America. But eventually he began to present 325 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: the sidewalk art scene. Hong too recalls his friends saying, 326 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: I'm not good to do that. There's a computation between 327 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: artists people lower repressed people sit there to make portrait, 328 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: some of it fifteen dollars four portrait, the other one 329 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: that ten dollars. He couldn't do that because he clearly 330 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: had some ambition, Yes, and he had ambition to be 331 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: a good artist. Yes. One day we have a common friend, 332 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: she wrote patient to MoMA. Patient was now down to 333 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: the floor at the front of four moneth waterlead painting, 334 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 1: and the cry cried like a baby, kneeling down that 335 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: day in tears. At the moment, Kuan's passion and his 336 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: desire to be a truly great artist was obvious to 337 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: everyone who knew him. One thing, I want to tell you, 338 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: that's what I feeled about American After a few years, 339 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: give you married American isn't never promise you that you 340 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: will become because or famous a rich artists, But this 341 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: country promise you you have the freedom to do your 342 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: art until the last day of your life. I think 343 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: that early in nineteen nine, many chance artists playing protrait 344 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: in the street. But in the same time and he's 345 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: still working on the street, but not like a street 346 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: portrait artists. He pinned some small landscape like still left 347 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: opinion in his studio, then his sale. Then he came 348 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: out to the streets and saw the lands. Yes, that's 349 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: what I heard. People fund him boyfriend. As they struggled 350 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: through the eighties and early nine nineties, Quan and hung 351 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: Too had much in common, though by outward appearances, hong 352 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: To was more successful. He found a gallery to represent 353 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: him both in New York and China. He rented a 354 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: sprawling studio space in Woodside, Queens. The subways overhead rumbled 355 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: loudly but were oddly soothing. Some of his work was winsome, 356 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: even playful. He made heavy bronze replicas of McDonald's packaging 357 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: for French fries and hamburgers. Other works, particularly at the 358 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: Art Students League, showed a darker side. But for Hong 359 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: to the immigrant experience on which he based his work 360 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: was ultimately uplifting. Not so for Kwan. One day, Carlos 361 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: and stopped to admire the paintings of a Chinese artist 362 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: to being Impressionist landscapes. So skilled was the artist that 363 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: Carlos introduced himself. He showed Kwan a book of various 364 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: artist work, including the Hudson River painters. Could Quan paint 365 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: a picture like one of these? Sure, Quan said. The 366 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: friendly couple offered to pay him one hundred dollars, and 367 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: Quan went off to work on his new picture. When 368 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: the trio met up again in the village, Quan showed 369 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: them his painting. It was remarkable. Carlos doubled Kwan's compensation 370 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: to two hundred dollars per painting. Quan was creating pictures 371 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: in the style of These were interpretations of the original 372 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 1: artist's work, with one big difference. Carlos and Fia wanted 373 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: the original artist's name in the lower right corner, not Quan's. Working. 374 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: From the garage of his house in Queen's Quan began 375 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: turning out one dazzling knockoff after another. Carlos Inglephia noticed 376 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: that Kwan was good at landscapes, but much better at 377 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: abstract expressionist works. That was convenient because the style of 378 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: the works was much more forgiving and subjective. Carlos would 379 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: come by to inspect Kwan's work with Gophia in tow. 380 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: They marveled at how realistic the forgeries were. Incredibly At first, 381 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: Kwan and Bergantina's sold their fakes on the street. Kwan 382 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: was paid a pittance for his work, about seven dollars 383 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: per canvas. Now, Kwan said nothing to his buyers on 384 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: the street about whether the paintings were real or not. 385 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: He used his poor English to shrug off all questions. 386 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: Either the passers by bought his paintings or not. A 387 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: surprising number did. Remarkably, Quan proved so fascile that he 388 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: could imitate not just one mid century master, but nearly 389 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: all of them. Experts would be stunned that such a 390 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: thing was even possible. Later, he would tell ABC News, 391 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: my intent wasn't for my fake paintings to be sold 392 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: as the real thing. They were just copies to put 393 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 1: up in your home if you like. Over time, Carlos 394 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: grew more ambitious and in his own way just as 395 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: skilled as Kwan. He brought Kwan old canvases at flea 396 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: markets and auctions, and supplied him with old paints used 397 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: specifically for forgery. Carlos stained the canvases with tea bags 398 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: to make them look older. A blow dryer came in handy. 399 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: He also exposed the newly painted canvases to harsh weather. 400 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: Carlos was particularly good at frames, finding originals at flea 401 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: markets and garage sales, and then treating them to look 402 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: as if they'd been resting intact for half a century 403 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: or more. Later, when authorities calmed his studio, they would 404 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: find among supplies an envelope labeled Rothko Nails. Edwin and 405 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: Mary Ann Gardner, Kwan's neighbors and queens began to notice 406 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: that a man in an expensive car would come to 407 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: Quan's house fairly, often carrying paintings too. Not from the 408 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: house that was likely Bergantino's Carlos would bring a painting 409 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: in for him to work on or fix up. Gardner 410 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: recalled of the mysterious visitor, but Kuan didn't volunteer any details, 411 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: and Gardner thought better than to ask. Into Quan's tiny 412 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: garage came the paintings wrapped up out they went. Some 413 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: days later, before Long Kuan's wife came to join him 414 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: in the US, the result of a complex and expensive 415 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: process that his fellow artists could hardly help but notice. 416 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: And now with some money in his pocket, he decided 417 00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: to celebrate. I wouldn't to a big party. He holds 418 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: it a big party at his house because his wife 419 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: moved to New York. Behoind him that's biggest things for 420 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: every everyone, so he can give a big party, and 421 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: asked him, Hey, what are you doing right now? He said, 422 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: I have some deal of representing my work that time, 423 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: what as we called the timeline. He already do the 424 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: fake paint. Qualm didn't tell Hong To or any of 425 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: his other guests what he was doing. He just turned 426 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: up the music. Well, we were sitting together together for 427 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 1: Chinese people, Chinese party. It's not it's unusual. Usually your 428 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: people just eating, just talking. Now later, when the truth 429 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: came out, the occasional right up would note that Chinese 430 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: artists often imitated the work of earlier masters, but it's 431 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: hung too noted there was a difference between an artistic 432 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: tribute signed by the accolytes name and a work where 433 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: only the original signature was appended, because this kind of 434 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: pained you. Other people's style with the signature, but that's 435 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: my study. Oh that's my copy. What you didn't do 436 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: was claim your own painting was someone else's work. That 437 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: declared hong To was a crime. If you'll copy other 438 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: people's work, you sell them. You got a manded from 439 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: the others work. Bergantino's would deny ever meeting Ann Friedman 440 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: or visiting the Knodler gallery. He said alone had duped 441 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: the Ndler. He claimed Glypha had hired Kwan to turn 442 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: out the forged Masters. I was never ambitious, Carlos told 443 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: The New York Times in a follow up article. Was 444 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: the ambitious one. She had been motivated, he said, by 445 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: money and glamor. She loved fancy clothes and fancy parties. 446 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: Gpra has her own version, of course. She says Carlos 447 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: had grown more abusive and given her no choice but 448 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: to carry on as the front person in the scheme. 449 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: The fancy parties and the fancy clothes she may have 450 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: bought are part of the job. Without that polished appearance, 451 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: she might never have met him. Andrade and Anne Friedman 452 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: had a Soho art gallery opening in the early nine nineties. 453 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: One of the person who gave a lecture, she had 454 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: a gallery in the Soho area. She in bite us 455 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: to go to her opening. And there is where I 456 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: met Jimmy and he told me about he works at 457 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: that gallery. And did he say that he might introduce 458 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: you to a Freedman? Yes? Why did I may introduce 459 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: you to Anne? Well? I told him that I have 460 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: access to some pieces of art, and so he introduced 461 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: you to Anne and then and said bring them in. 462 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: And that first one was a deep in Corn? Yes? Okay, 463 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: Now did pye Sean? Did he make that deep in 464 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: Corn with your help and with Carlos's help? Yes, But 465 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: it's not that he just made one and wailah, it's nice, 466 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: it's good. No, he had to make many. He had 467 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: and we and we have to choose the best one. 468 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: It was not just paying one thousand or five d No, you, 469 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: he made many, but they were not good. So many efforts. 470 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: Finally you had a good deep in Corn and you 471 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: took it in. And when you came in to the Noddler, 472 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: how did you feel, I mean, wasn't it kind of scary? 473 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: Very scary? I no, you know that you knew the 474 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: painting was fake? Well, yes, I did so. It was 475 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: very scary, very stressful. What are you? Asked the pressure 476 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: by Carlos. It would be fair to say here that 477 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: a couple is skilled in prevarication, as Rosales and Bergantino's 478 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: may not have been entirely truthful in recounting their story. 479 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: At the same time, Forfra at least, the cost of 480 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: later lying to law enforcement investigators would have been severe. Indeed, 481 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: if discrepancies were discovered, we are inclined to believe that 482 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: the story she's told us is true. But it's worth 483 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: remembering that these are the words of a self confessed 484 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: con artist. Was very smart in targeting, and specifically, I 485 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: think that she had to understand the profile of the victims. 486 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: She was looking for someone who had everything to gain, 487 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: someone who needed to establish her name in the art world, 488 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,879 Speaker 1: someone who was hungry and still needed something that would 489 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: cement her reputation. That's Maria Kannakova again. Maria is the 490 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: author of The Confidence Game, Why We Fall Forward every Time? 491 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: A New Yorker staff writer and Harvard graduate. Maria devotes 492 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: a whole chapter of her book to the notlar forgeries, 493 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: bringing to bear her years of study of the practice 494 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: of deception and chance. In the relationship between Anne Friedman 495 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: and Gpe Rosalie, she saw classic signs of the con 496 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: artist at work and an all too willing victim. There 497 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,919 Speaker 1: were a few things about Anne that I think really 498 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: stood out. She was new at her job, and she 499 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: started as a secretary, so someone who clearly starts with 500 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 1: a chip on her shoulder in some respects because you 501 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: start from the very bottom. She's female. Most directors of 502 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: prominent art galleries are males. She's not yet established. People 503 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: are kind of looking at her thinking, huh, you know, 504 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: is she going to be able to pull this off? 505 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: And so I'm guessing that made the rounds of the 506 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 1: art world, looked into different galleries and tried to figure 507 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: out who's going to be my ideal victim. It was 508 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: not happenstance that she approached Anne and that she actually 509 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 1: zeroed in on someone who would be the most susceptible, 510 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: who was most likely to believe this because she was 511 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: most motivated to believe this. So thrillingly vibrant were the 512 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,800 Speaker 1: works and seemingly real that Anne Freeman let her passions 513 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: get the best of her. Of course they were genuine, 514 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: she told art world experts, how could they not be 515 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: amongst fellow staffers, experts, and collectors, and was adamant. Soon 516 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: she felt GPA and her client Mr. X Jr. Would 517 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: trust her enough to share their story with her, and 518 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: she was trustworthy, as Anne fervently told Lafa every time 519 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: she came in. In the meantime, Anne had to avoid 520 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: pushing too hard lest Mr x Junior reconsider and take 521 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: his paintings elsewhere. And so through the rest of the 522 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: nine nineties, the shy seller and the eager buyer kept 523 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 1: an uneasy balance. Two or three masterly paintings that sold 524 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: a great profit led to four and five paintings and 525 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: more none had any reasonable provenance. Naturally, Anne grew desperate 526 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,479 Speaker 1: to hear more. Perhaps the first clue came over Lunch. 527 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 1: Lafar and Anne had become close enough to celebrate each 528 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: new painting from the Mr x Junior collection with a 529 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: high priced Upper East Side. Lunch was kind enough to 530 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: remember Anne's birthday and gave her a meaningful present each year, 531 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,439 Speaker 1: an expensive pen, for example, and in turn would ask 532 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: Clephia about her daughter, who excelled in Violin. I saw 533 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: her as a well mannered woman, and later said of 534 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: Gafat to Vanity Fair, was it frustrating that I couldn't 535 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 1: learn more from her? Sure, but I always hoped every 536 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,439 Speaker 1: time I was with her that she would reveal more 537 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: and that I would come closer to knowing more Stone 538 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: by overturned Stone. She knew that some day I expected 539 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: to meet him, and added of Cpira and Mr x Jr. 540 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 1: She never said never, She just said I can't now. 541 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: Under gentle but persistent pressure, Rosales finally let slip The 542 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: Mister X and his wife, the parents of her client, 543 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: had been a wealthy couple from the Philippines. Their fortune 544 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: had come from the sugar business, and it had allowed 545 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: them to make frequent art buying trips to New York. 546 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: Often on these trips, Gafa recounted they had been guided 547 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: by Alfonso Ossorio, an abstract expressionist painter whose own Philippine family, 548 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: like mister and Missus Xes, had grown wealthy from the 549 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: sugar trade. As Anne discovered in her research, Osorio was 550 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: close to many abstract expressionist painters, none more so than 551 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: Jackson Pollock. Often in the nineteen fifties, Osorio entertained the 552 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: Hampton's art crowd at his sixty acre Easthampton water from 553 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: compound called the Creeks. It was at Pollock's urging that 554 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: Osorio bought the Creeks in the first place. As Anne 555 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: noted with growing excitement, Osorio had been known for acting 556 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 1: as an informal art adviser, putting buyers, especially Filipino buyers, 557 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: in touch with artists and their dealers. It was possible 558 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,240 Speaker 1: that the paintings may have been bought directly from various 559 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: New York artists studios in cash, with no taxes paid. 560 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 1: From there, they would be smuggled back to the Philippines. 561 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: That would account for the collection's long disappearance and their 562 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: re emergence in Gfira's hands. Or so said Anne. It 563 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: was art world sleuthing, one clue leading to the next. 564 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: Anne and her staffers spent a lot of time poring 565 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: over the noted archives, going all the way back to 566 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties. It happened to be the best art 567 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: archive in America. That was the kind of archive hunting 568 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: that may have made Alfonso Ossario a key character in 569 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,439 Speaker 1: the back story, at least in Anne Friedman's mind. Later, 570 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,879 Speaker 1: Anne told me she had asked Lephia, did the name 571 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: Osario ring any bells with Mr x JRPA promised to 572 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: ask her mysterious client. We'll be back after this. He 573 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: loves me, he loves me not. He loves me. He 574 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: loves me not. He loves me not. So he returned 575 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 1: me because he had thirty days to do so, which 576 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: is plenty of time to discover you don't love someone 577 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: or in my case something, Because surprise, I'm a CarMax 578 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: car who is now back on the market thirty day 579 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:19,280 Speaker 1: money back guarantee. It's car buying reimagined CARMACKSMIT. See carmacks 580 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: dot com for details. Advertising is online and delivered where 581 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: you are, just like this radio ad. I want to 582 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: know what else is delivered where you are. We'll give 583 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: you a hint. It's shining, has a honk and comes 584 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: with special features that you get to personally pick out, 585 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 1: like leather or cloth, sunroof or moonroof, or four wheel 586 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: driver versus all wheel drive. Yeah a car, a CarMax car, 587 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: buy online, get it delivered to you. It's car buying 588 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: Reimagined Carmacks available within a sixty mile radius of select stores. 589 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 1: See CarMax dot Com for details. Some restrictions apply. You know, 590 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: historical trading markets just don't come around that often. It's 591 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: a once in a lifetime thing. And you know, we 592 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: look back at the y I see and then then 593 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: the nineties dot com with the NAS back and I'm 594 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: going this is this is a new market. Hey guys. 595 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: This Brian Foote, CEO of Humble and hosting the new 596 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: Humble Nation podcast. As a recently public company, we're seeing 597 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: interest in blockchain, mobile payments, ticketing and f t s 598 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: and more growing faster than ever and what we call 599 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: the digital economy. So join me along with high profile 600 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: gas from the world of pro sports, music, entertainment and 601 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: other industries. It was we talked about how technologies like 602 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: blockchain are shaping their world ours in the decade ahead 603 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: for all of us in the digital economy, only on 604 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: Humble Nation. M hm. Sure enough, with FRA's next visit 605 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: came fascinating news and hunch was right. According to Mr 606 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: x Jr. His art buying parents had indeed dealt with 607 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: Alfonso Sorrio. Mossorio fit perfectly into the back story. Glafira 608 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: and Anne were now embroidering together. Mr and Mrs X 609 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: had purportedly died by the time Glafira Rosalez paid her 610 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: first visit to the Knodler. So had Alfonso Osorio, whose 611 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,720 Speaker 1: ashes upon his death and were scattered over the grounds 612 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: of the creeks. Was it mere coincidence that artists, dealers, 613 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: and go betweens had a way of dying shortly before 614 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: the burgon Tino's team started tweaking their legacies as they 615 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 1: sifted through the archives, and and her staffers also searched 616 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: for photographs taken in the studios of mid century artists. 617 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: Perhaps the paintings in the backgrounds of those photographs might 618 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 1: offer clues, And was so into connoisseurship, improving that something 619 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: existed because we found some archival letter from Robert mother Well, 620 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: one former stafford says, by way of example, In fact, 621 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: they never found any direct evidence. Ever, Anne was very 622 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: sure of herself, the stafford added, if she believed, and 623 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: she could make others believe, well, you know the old saying, 624 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 1: you can't cheat an honest man, you know, that's what 625 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: the story is. That's Knodler artist Donald Sulton. She certainly 626 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: should have known the fact that she didn't know where 627 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 1: they came from was a tip off, because any reputable 628 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: dealer would not deal with that. And then the other 629 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: part of it is that if she thought they were real, 630 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: she thought that she was getting them from this woman 631 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 1: at a cheap price. So basically she thought she was 632 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: conning the woman. So you know what I'm saying, you 633 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: can't cheat an honest man. You know, the whole nature 634 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: of a con person is to make you seem like 635 00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: you can't trust them, right, So that she her idea 636 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: was to make them feel like, you know, they're very 637 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: lucky to know someone like you who's trustworthy, whereas they 638 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: may not be and you know, so and so forth. 639 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: So basically Anne was conning and thought she was conning Glafira, 640 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: and in fact Lafa was conning her for Glafira and 641 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: Anne there was soon caused for another celebratory lunch. It 642 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: was the day that first brought in a Jackson pollock. 643 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,759 Speaker 1: It was a classic drip painting, unusually small, but a 644 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,280 Speaker 1: pollock it was, or so it seemed to be. Friedman 645 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: and her husband Robert decided to buy it themselves for 646 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: the relatively modest price of two hundred and eighty thousand 647 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,759 Speaker 1: dollars in buying it together, Anne and her husband may 648 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,919 Speaker 1: have hoped to establish themselves as pollock dealers. Interestingly, Anne 649 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: and Robert Friedman may also have chosen to keep the 650 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: small pollock for themselves because of how it was signed. 651 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 1: One day, while I was working on my story for Vanity, 652 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: Fear And invited me up for a tour of her apartment. 653 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,759 Speaker 1: On the walls hung a small Jackson pollock that was 654 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: about the size of a magazine cover. Oddly, its signature 655 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,439 Speaker 1: was misspelled as p O L l okay the sea 656 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: was missing. It would remain in the Freedman's personal collection 657 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,320 Speaker 1: all through the saga that ensued. The curious misspelling of 658 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,760 Speaker 1: pollock would come up later and even be disputed by Anne, 659 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: written off as a slip of the pen. Maria Kannakova 660 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: recalls this debacle. She started describing how, oh, well, probably 661 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: you know the pen skipped or this or that. She 662 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: made up excuses for it. Rather than say, okay, but 663 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: this is a problem, she said, See, it's definitely not 664 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 1: a fake, because a fake Pollock would never have misspelled 665 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: the name Pollock. And listening to her say that when 666 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: I talked to her was just mind boggling to Anne's 667 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: pride and delight with Fia brought her a second larger pollock, 668 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: a greenish rip style painting called untitled nine. The painting 669 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: was twelve by eighteen inches. It was small for a pollock, 670 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: but impressive looking all the same. This time the artist's 671 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: name was spelled correctly. It was the first of at 672 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:21,040 Speaker 1: least four Pollocks that would pass through the Ndler. Despitefra's 673 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: refusal to furnish any more personal details, Anne could hardly 674 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,320 Speaker 1: complain about how her paintings were selling in the New millennium. 675 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,880 Speaker 1: One couple, Murray and ca Bring, bought a Deep and 676 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: Corn for ninety four thousand dollars. Richard Gilson bought a 677 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 1: Deep and Corn for one hundred forty eight thousand dollars. 678 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,879 Speaker 1: The Michelle Rosenfeld Gallery bought a Rothko for a three 679 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: hundred twenty five thousand dollars. The Kemper Museum bought a 680 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: Franz Klimb for four hundred seventy five thousand dollars and 681 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: a Rovko for six hundred fifteen thousand dollars. Soon after, 682 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: Hughes and Sheila Podocker bought a Franz Climbed themselves for 683 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: five hundred thirty five thousand dollars. Jack and fran Levy 684 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 1: paid seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars for a Clifford Still, 685 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,440 Speaker 1: five hundred and sixty thousand for a Franz Climb, and 686 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: six hundred fifteen thousand dollars for a Rothco. The Levies 687 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: would eventually eclipse all other individual purchases to date, acquiring 688 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: a Jackson Pollock from the Knobler Gallery for two million dollars. 689 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,000 Speaker 1: For some reason, Ga remained willing to accept modest prices 690 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: from the Kndler. These are prices far lower than the 691 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 1: works would have earned her at auction or even through 692 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:45,160 Speaker 1: other dealers. Was just too shy to press Anne for more? 693 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: Or was Anne just that good of a negotiator. Perhaps 694 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: the latter since is and later put it with pride quote. 695 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: I never paid Gla a commission. I just gave her 696 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,320 Speaker 1: the net price end quote, which was to say that 697 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 1: the two women agreed on a flat fee and just 698 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,879 Speaker 1: took what she got and then set whatever retail price 699 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,719 Speaker 1: she liked and sold him to the buyer. That there 700 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: was not percentage. To me, there was a payment. Carlos 701 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,759 Speaker 1: told me, asked her for this much I got that much. 702 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,279 Speaker 1: I don't know how much she got and never told 703 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: Gilfia what the retail price would be. Anything over that 704 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,960 Speaker 1: flat fee was Ndlers to keep with Anne pocketing whatever 705 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: commission she chose to take. E A. Carmine, an expert 706 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,120 Speaker 1: in both Pollock and Rothko, who had previously declared as 707 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: first Rothko to be real, weighing again on the Ndlers 708 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 1: new Pollock. Once again, he concluded the painting was real. 709 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 1: As experts go, Carmine was the genuine article. He had 710 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:55,399 Speaker 1: served as the National Galleries founding curator of Contemporary Art 711 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. So when Carmine determined the Pollock 712 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,919 Speaker 1: was legitimate, it carried a lot of weight. It wasn't 713 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: the same as true provenance, but it was a good start. Later, 714 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 1: other experts would note that Carmine had rendered that judgment 715 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: only after signing on as a paid consultant to the 716 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,920 Speaker 1: Ndler Gallery. If she didn't officially you get a contract 717 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,360 Speaker 1: and hire him. She handed in the money, you know 718 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,320 Speaker 1: what I mean? And also she used stories, and you 719 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,920 Speaker 1: know she said, you know, e A. Carmine approved. This 720 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: doesn't mean he proved it. One Nodler staffer recalled, just 721 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: how vital a role Carmine was now playing in legitimizing 722 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: works from Gafa Rosales. One time we had a check 723 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,359 Speaker 1: going out to e A Carmine. The staffer recall only 724 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,320 Speaker 1: the check hadn't been cut yet, and Anne was furious. 725 00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,000 Speaker 1: He wrote appraisals that helped sell work. The colleague recalls 726 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: and saying, he really just got us out of a jam. 727 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: We need to get him a check right away. Jack Levy, 728 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,680 Speaker 1: co chairman of Mergers and Acquisitions at Goldman Sachs, bought 729 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 1: his two million dollar Polock in late two thousand one. 730 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,760 Speaker 1: The Levies had already bought three other mid century works 731 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,200 Speaker 1: from Ndler that would turn out to be fake. With 732 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 1: that purchase of Untitled nine, they were in for over 733 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:30,160 Speaker 1: four point three million dollars. Levy was an eager collector, 734 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,840 Speaker 1: but a careful one too. Before taking possession of his Pollock, 735 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,400 Speaker 1: he demanded it be vetted by the International Foundation for 736 00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:43,280 Speaker 1: Art Research or i FAR. If i FAR approved the work, 737 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,439 Speaker 1: he would happily accept the sale. If not, Noodler would 738 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,120 Speaker 1: have to take the painting back and return two million 739 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:55,959 Speaker 1: dollars to the Levies, and readily agreed. Later, she said 740 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: she had no doubt the painting was real. The cover 741 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,800 Speaker 1: letter was certainly seen by Jack Leavy. We said we 742 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,600 Speaker 1: cannot accept the work as a work by Jackson Pollock. 743 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: More from Sharon Flesher, executive director of I Far Next 744 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:41,200 Speaker 1: time on Art Fraud, Jack Please Art Fraud is brought 745 00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,200 Speaker 1: to you by I Heart Radio and Cavalry Audio. Our 746 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:50,280 Speaker 1: executive producers are Matt del Piano, Keegan Rosenberger, Andy Turner, myself, 747 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 1: and Michael Shnayerson. Special thanks to composer Danielle Ava Schwab. 748 00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,120 Speaker 1: The classical selections in this week's episode are from her 749 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:04,000 Speaker 1: new album Out of the Tunnel, available now. We're produced 750 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,960 Speaker 1: by Brandon Morgan and Zach McNeice. Zach also edited and 751 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: mixed this episode. Lindsay Hoffman is our managing producer. Our 752 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:26,000 Speaker 1: writer is Michael Schneerson. Have you ever wanted to learn 753 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,320 Speaker 1: about cryptocurrency but don't know where to start, Well, the 754 00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,640 Speaker 1: Coin Bureau podcast is here to help. My name is Guy. 755 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,240 Speaker 1: I'm the host of the biggest crypto channel on YouTube, 756 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,200 Speaker 1: and I've persuaded my old friend Mike to sit down 757 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,560 Speaker 1: and talk crypto with me. Together, We're going to explore 758 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,719 Speaker 1: this crazy world, right from the beginning. Sound good, Mike, 759 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,040 Speaker 1: sounds great guy. Listen to the Coin Bureau podcast on 760 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,279 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 761 00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:57,960 Speaker 1: get for podcasts. We've all felt left out, and for 762 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 1: people who moved to this country, that feeling last more 763 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,200 Speaker 1: than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it 764 00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,200 Speaker 1: belonging begins with us dot org brought to you by 765 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:12,880 Speaker 1: the AD Council. Look for your children's eyes and you 766 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: will discover the true magic of a forest. Find a 767 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,000 Speaker 1: forest near you and start exploring it. Discover the Forest. 768 00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,719 Speaker 1: Dot org brought to you by the United States Forest 769 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: Service and the AD Council.