1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: In this episode, we'll be talking about sexual abuse and violence, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: which could be triggering for some listeners. Please listen to 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: your own discretion. December seventh, twenty eighteen. That day, Camilla 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Appell woke up feeling incredibly anxious. 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 2: Oh. 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 3: I almost had a heart attack, because we were doing 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 3: something very very very courageous, very risky. 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: Camilla was a screenwriter on one of the most popular 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: late night TV shows in Brazil. For months, she had 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: been spending every waking minute on a top secret show, 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: one that would finally air that night. 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 3: Nobody knew what we were doing. I had come out 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 3: with a nickname for this operation, which is Glaubert. Glaubert 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 3: is a very very famous Brazilian movie director. People thought 15 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 3: it was a show that would be about Glouburg. 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: But actually it was an interview with a woman who 17 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: said on Facebook that she had been raped by Brazil's 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: most famous guru and healer, John of God. Camilla spent 19 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: two and a half months investigating those allegations and discovered 20 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: many other women with similar stories. Finally, the months of 21 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: waiting and digging and convincing executives to air, the story 22 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: would be over. 23 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 3: It was a show that herd woman saying they were 24 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 3: raped and abused by a very, very influential and important man. 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 3: Without law enforcement, we risked a lot. 26 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: They hadn't gone to the police because John of God 27 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: had friends in the highest of places. Any slip up 28 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: could lead to a bigger cover up, or worse, it 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: could put these women's lives in danger. Camilla had credible 30 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: testimonies from over a dozen women, so she and her boss, 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: a veteran TV journalist named Pedro Bial, felt confident they 32 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: had enough to go to air. They recorded the show, 33 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: then in the days before they aired the episode, they 34 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: contacted John of God. 35 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 3: We came to John and said, look, we're doing it this. 36 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: We need you to say whatever you want to say. 37 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 3: How do you defend yourself. Do you want to be interviewed. 38 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 3: We would love to interview you now. 39 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: At first, John of God made it seem like he 40 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: might talk to them on the record, but in the 41 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: end it became clear he was just making time for 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: another move. 43 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 3: He got a judge and he was trying with the 44 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: judge to stop the show of being aired, saying that 45 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: we were damaging his image. 46 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: Camilla started to get scared. 47 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 3: I had talked to a lot a lot of people, guides, husbands, victmuns. 48 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 3: I talked to a lot of people, so I was 49 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 3: very secure of the story I had on my hand. 50 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 3: I didn't doubt that. My fear was that me, as 51 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: a lot of journalists that came before me, would not 52 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 3: be able to put it forward to wear. 53 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: It if it didn't air. Camilla worried about what would 54 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: happen to the women who talked to her. 55 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 3: By the time they decided to talk to me and say, okay, 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 3: we are going to give you an official interview, they 57 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 3: were in danger because John of God already knew that 58 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 3: I was doing that. So they were in danger, and 59 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 3: then if this story didn't come out, they might be 60 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 3: really in danger. 61 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: As the network deliberated on whether to move forward with 62 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: the episode, Camilla also thought about everything she sacrificed for 63 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: this story. 64 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 3: Two months and a half, twenty four hours a day. 65 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: I even have a small kid at the time, and 66 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: I have a lot of audioce that she's crying at 67 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: the back. I know because I've listened to them afterwards, 68 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: and my kids are trying to talk to me, and 69 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 3: I'm like, no, no, no. Because I was very obsessed 70 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 3: with taken the story public We have an expression in Portuguese. 71 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: W'd say, Moherna Bryant, die at the beach. You know, 72 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 3: you swim and swim, swim to get into farm land 73 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 3: and then when you get there you die at the 74 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 3: beach and said, no, I'm swimming, I'm swimming. I don't 75 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: want to stop here. I need this to come. 76 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: Out from exactly right. Media ended on the media. This 77 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: is two faced John of God. I'm your host, Martina 78 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: Castro episode four, Breaking the Silence. It was a big 79 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: deal when Camilla landed the writer job for one of 80 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: the most popular shows on Global Global. 81 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 3: It's a huge television network in Latin America. We reach 82 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 3: out to around one hundred million people a day, so 83 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 3: it's a lot of people that we connect to. And 84 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 3: I also write a the talk show television program which 85 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 3: is hosted by Pedro Bial, and that's how everything started. 86 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: Actually, this was in early twenty eighteen. Pedro Bial, a 87 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: veteran journalist and the host of the show where Kamida worked, 88 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: told her that he was interested in interviewing the celebrated 89 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: healer John of God. So Kamida started researching him just 90 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: like she would have done for any other. 91 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 3: Guest and The first person I decided to talk to 92 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 3: was a very good friend of mine that actually lived 93 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: in a Badiana for a while. 94 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: Camilla calls her up to get a sense of what 95 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: Abadianya and the whole community there was like, but the 96 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: woman starts off by telling Camida something totally unexpected. 97 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: The first thing that she told me was that he 98 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 3: rapes woman. He's a serial abuser. That really shocked me 99 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 3: because I had never heard anything about it before. And 100 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 3: then I said, how do you know that this? 101 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: The secrecy and risk around revealing something like this. She 102 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: tells Camida that three women, on separate occasions, had confided 103 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: in her that they were abused by him. Given how 104 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: close this woman felt to Camilla, she thought it was 105 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: important to share this information with her. 106 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 3: I said, could you please ask them if they would 107 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 3: talk to me? And they were very, very reluctant, very afraid. 108 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: Because John of God, he used to be surrounded by 109 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: men that hold guns, so she was very afraid that 110 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 3: something could happen to her. 111 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: But one of the women ultimately agreed to talk to Camilla. 112 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: Her friend assured her that Comita was trustworthy and would 113 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: keep her identity secret. This woman had also kept a 114 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: diary where she had written about the abuse, and. 115 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 3: When I met her, she was with the diary on 116 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 3: her hands and she was shaking, and she said, I 117 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 3: don't remember much. I think I decided from our own 118 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: safety mental health to erase everything. But here's the diary 119 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 3: and then I read it and it was very, very shocking, 120 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 3: and said, whoa, this is someone completely different from the 121 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 3: person we know. This is a monster and she said yes, 122 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: and he wasn't doing that only to me. 123 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: Camilla ended up talking to two more women and they 124 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: shared very similar stories that had taken place many years apart. 125 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: I mean, the first one was twenty years ago, the 126 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: other one was twenty five years ago, and then the 127 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 3: third one was a month before and the story was 128 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 3: very similar. And said, whoa, he is a stereo abuser. 129 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: Camilla took all of this back to her boss, Pedro Biald. 130 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 3: And said, look, this is what I found, and then 131 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 3: he said, go for it. Keep digging. You are in 132 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: the right track. 133 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: So Camilla kept looking for other potential survivors who may 134 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: want to tell their stories, and that's when a woman 135 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: mentioned an allegation of rape she had recently seen online. 136 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 3: One of them said, there is a post on Facebook 137 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: from a Dutch woman called Zahidra. 138 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: The Facebook post it was created by Zahida Mouse, a 139 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: choreographer from Holland who had been to the Casa in 140 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: Abadianya several times. In her post, she describes in detail 141 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: how John of God had raped her twice. It wasn't 142 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: the first time someone had shared a story like this online, 143 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: but this time people were paying attention. 144 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 4: It was May two thousand and eighteen, so it was 145 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 4: all the Micho movement after Harvey Weinstein's story at New 146 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 4: York Times and everything had happened. So we had like 147 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 4: a feel a moment going on. And she said, yeah, 148 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 4: me too. 149 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: That's Christina Phoebe, the journalist we heard from an episode two. 150 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: She was working at Old Globo at the time, a 151 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: newspaper owned by the same media company that owned the 152 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: TV network where Camilla worked. When Christina came across Sakita's 153 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: Facebook post, she had no idea that at TV Globo 154 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: Camiina Appel was also digging into this story. 155 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 4: So I was part of a very small group, a 156 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 4: feminist group on Facebook. They shared Zahira's post, selling in 157 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 4: English everything that happened to her, and I was like, what, 158 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 4: I was shocked. I hadn't had any chips about it, nothing, 159 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 4: and there were comments like. 160 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 3: See what I told. 161 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 4: You and look look at this, and so I read 162 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 4: it and I was like, whoa, maybe it wasn't only her. 163 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: So Christina called one of the investigative reporters she worked with, 164 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: Elena Borguez. Christina asked Elena if she'd be willing to 165 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: talk to Sahida about her allegations. It just so happens 166 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: that Elena had already been to Abadienya a couple of 167 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: months earlier to do a magazine story about John of God. 168 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: She tells Christina that she felt very unwelcome while she 169 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: was there. 170 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 4: She felt observed, and she came back and said, it's 171 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 4: kind of weird. They want to control what kind of 172 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 4: story is going to get out, what I'm telling, who 173 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 4: I'm talking to. It's kind of strange. So that was 174 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 4: like the only info we had, and I said, Elena, 175 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 4: maybe that's why let's look into this, And in like 176 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 4: forty eight hours of doing that, she had six women. 177 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: These six women all said they had suffered sexual abuse 178 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: at the hands of John of God. And just like 179 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: the women who separately spoke with Kamida Abel. They told 180 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: similar stories of abuse, even though they didn't know each 181 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: other and their stories were from different time periods. 182 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 4: We call modus operande. I think that's an expression that 183 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 4: we all say. It had a very clear way of 184 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 4: doing things, very very quist so clear, modus opera engine 185 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 4: in the way he abused women. 186 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: Gristina says this revealed something that months later would be 187 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: key to the whole case against John of God. The 188 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: women who spoke with Christina and Camilla described situations that 189 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: occurred over the span of decades, stories that followed a 190 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: very similar pattern. Imagine being at the Gasa in the 191 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: long line of people waiting to meet John of God. 192 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: There are hundreds of people around you, some meditating and praying, 193 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: Volunteers and guides are translating or treating people in the infirmary. 194 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: Christina explains how it would all go down in the 195 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: middle of this very public setting. 196 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 4: So he always chose them when they were in line, 197 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 4: and then when they got to him, like they had 198 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 4: twenty seconds to say what they wanted. That was like 199 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 4: in front of everybody, and he told them. The girls 200 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 4: he chose to see him after the main line alone 201 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 4: in his. 202 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: Office before they even set foot in the office, they 203 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: were already feeling special, chosen to be one of the 204 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: few people who would get alone time with John of God. 205 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: And then once they were in the office. 206 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 4: You know, it was half office and half bedroom, had 207 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 4: like a big chair and books and saints and pictures 208 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 4: of him and famous people and powerful people. So you know, 209 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 4: you felt intimidated, because how am I gonna tell people 210 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 4: that he's bad? Look at all those powerful people who 211 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 4: come here and who are friends with him. 212 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: Christina and Camilla separately started to see a strategy behind 213 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: what seemed to be a system of abuse, a system 214 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: that targeted a very specific kind of person. 215 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 4: It's mainly white women, blonde He loves blonde women and 216 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 4: young women in general. A few old women as well, 217 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 4: but mainly on their twenties or thirties. A few of them. 218 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 4: He also chose like to hold his instruments to be 219 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 4: beside him while he was like curing other people. So 220 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 4: they felt even more chosen and special. 221 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: And this was all by design. 222 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 4: A few of them were not trying to cure themselves, 223 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 4: but trying to get pregnant, or they had like a 224 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 4: crisis in their marriage that they felt that there was 225 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 4: like a spiritual crisis. So he also was like smart 226 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 4: enough if I can't say that, but anyway, he was 227 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 4: smart enough to see the vulnerability of those women. 228 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: But what enabled the system to operate was everything surrounding it. 229 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: The journalists began to uncover a mafia like network of 230 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: influence and control that John of God had in Abadiania. 231 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: This network served to keep everyone, including his victims, from 232 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: speaking out. 233 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 4: Abadienna was like a very very small town that just 234 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 4: had John of God at the center of everything. So 235 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 4: half of town was just there to serve him. He 236 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 4: had to give authorization for a store to open, or 237 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 4: for our cab driver to drive and get passengers, or 238 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 4: for our hotel to function. He had, you know, control 239 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 4: of everything. People who didn't do what John of God 240 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 4: wanted them to do, they usually disappeared. 241 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: Disappeared as in run out of town, threatened, or even 242 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,239 Speaker 1: rumored to have died. That's why Christina and Camilla understood 243 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: why it was so hard for the women to come forward. 244 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: They both took extra care and time to earn their trust. 245 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: Here's Camilla again. 246 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 3: I think it's very fair, at least I thought at 247 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 3: the time, to really connect with them in a very 248 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 3: genuine relationship, because what I was asking for them was 249 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 3: to tell a horrible story to relieve a trauma caused 250 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 3: by a very violent and dangerous man that wasn't in prison, 251 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 3: that was living as a king in a city, having 252 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 3: his own house, and a very rich man surrounded by bodyguards. 253 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,359 Speaker 3: So they were very afraid. 254 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: Camilla says. An added difficulty was that the women thought 255 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: John of God was capable of punishing them for speaking out, 256 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: even from Afar. 257 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 5: They called it a spiritual retaliation because once you say okay, 258 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 5: I want to do this treatment, it's been said that 259 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 5: John of God would visit you spiritually and would start 260 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 5: the cure. 261 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: So if he's able to come here and on the 262 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 3: other side of the world and start curing me, maybe 263 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 3: he's able to come here and harm me. So they 264 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 3: were very afraid to talk to me, even to tell 265 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 3: me what happened to them. I actually had one woman 266 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 3: her car got stolen and then she messaged me saying, 267 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 3: I cannot talk to you. He made my car being stolen. 268 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: During one of our interviews, we faced the same fear 269 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: you might remember in episode three when we were talking 270 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: to Anna Paula, the recording suddenly went out and she 271 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: immediately thought it was John of God. 272 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 3: So there were a lot of challenges involving this kind 273 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 3: of investigation. 274 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: But their challenges weren't only external. Internally, these journalists had 275 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: to convince their bosses at their separate companies that they 276 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: had enough evidence to back up what these women were saying. 277 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: At the newspaper, Christina confronted a lot of resistance. 278 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 4: It was very shocking for me because it was not 279 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 4: a priority at all. I was talking about like the 280 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 4: main Brazilian guru. He was so powerful, he was like 281 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 4: a huge figure. I was not trying like to publish 282 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 4: a small story about the guy at my corner. That 283 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 4: was like abusing. That would be hard. But it was 284 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 4: like we are talking about, you know, numbers, audience. If 285 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 4: they don't mind the victims, they would mind the audience, right, 286 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 4: But it just didn't care. 287 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: Or Christina started to think they just didn't understand the 288 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: nature of these crimes. She remembers her editors, three women, 289 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: asking questions like. 290 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 4: Did they say no, did they like fight? Why did 291 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 4: they went back there? So it was very basic and 292 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 4: so I felt both and in comprehension about the mechanisms 293 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 4: of the abuse and the difficult of a victim to speak, 294 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 4: and on the other hand, a lack of worry, like 295 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 4: they just don't care. 296 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: It was also a tough time news wise. The country 297 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: was going through a tumultuous presidential election, which was taking 298 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: up a lot of space and energy in the newsroom. 299 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: Christina thinks it probably got even harder after they reached 300 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: out to John of God to comment on the allegations. 301 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 4: The first response by John of God was, well, it's 302 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 4: all a lie. They're lying. They're trying to create facts 303 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 4: about me, and I'm going to see whoever publishes that. 304 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 4: And probably it scared the newspaper because he did have friend, 305 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 4: judge friends, lawyer friends and everything. So it was like 306 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 4: the start of a battle, so we could publish the story. 307 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: The longer the battle went on, the longer John of 308 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: God continued to see people at the Casa. 309 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 4: And it was very anguishing because as we noticed that 310 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 4: there was like a models oper range going on and 311 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 4: he was raping women. So each day we didn't publish, 312 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 4: for me, it was a day that he could be 313 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 4: raping someone. And Elena was like the interface to the victims, 314 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 4: so she had to explain every day to the victims 315 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 4: was going on that the story wasn't running. What are 316 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 4: they not believing in us? Which is like the worst 317 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 4: thing for a victim. 318 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, at TV Global, Camilla had an advantage over other 319 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: journalists chasing down a story, conversa combial. The show where 320 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: she worked was considered entertainment, meaning they could skirt some 321 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: of the rules that the news side had to contend with. 322 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,479 Speaker 3: If I was from the journalist's show like the National 323 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 3: News for instance, they would say no, no, you cannot 324 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 3: come out with the story if you don't have the 325 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 3: police enforcement or if you don't have someone that is 326 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 3: really prosecuting him and actually had won at least, But 327 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 3: as we were from the talk show and the entertainment 328 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: side of it, I think this was not an impediment, 329 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 3: was not an obstacle. 330 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: But even for Camilla, it was going to be an 331 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: uphill battle to get this segment on the air. Her 332 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: determination to help these women speak out would be tested 333 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: by everyone, especially by John of God himself. To make 334 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: the strongest show possible, Kamida and her bosses had to 335 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: showcase the credibility of the allegations of the thirteen women 336 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: who spoke with Kamina on the record. Three were willing 337 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: to go on the air, but they weren't willing to 338 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: show their faces, so Kamida was afraid it wouldn't be 339 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: enough to convince the public. Then Kamina got a lucky break. 340 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: After weeks of deliberation, Zahida Mouse, the woman who had 341 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: posted her experience of abuse on Facebook, came to a 342 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: crucial decision. 343 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 3: Zahida decided to come forward showing her face. I think 344 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 3: this was very important for people to really look at her, 345 00:21:55,560 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 3: see her speaking and coming forward with everything that head. 346 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: Camilla then got her second lucky break. She found a 347 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: tour guide who used to take people from the US 348 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: to see John of God. 349 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 3: And when I talked to her, she said she entered 350 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 3: his office and he was raping someone from her group. 351 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: I actually heard one of my tourists yelling for help 352 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: inside his office and went in. 353 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: That's the tour guide, Amy Biank. What she's describing happened 354 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: on her last visit to Abadianya in two thousand and eight. 355 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: So I saw her on her knees with Joel exposed 356 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: and him pushing her head towards him, and instead of complying, 357 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: she yelled and I busted in and then he told 358 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: me to close my eyes and sit down, and I did. 359 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 2: I can't believe I did that, because you're so indoctrinated, 360 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: you know. But it only lasted about thirty seconds, and 361 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: I got up and I said, put your pants back on, 362 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 2: get up, We're going. Because I was not confused anymore. 363 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 2: I was mad, and I knew that that was it 364 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 2: for me. 365 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 1: Amy stopped taking people to the Casa after that, but 366 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: she wanted to warn potential visitors without drawing too much 367 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: attention to herself, so she posted a message on a 368 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: blog for people interested in going to Abadiana. In it, 369 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: she said, if you go, be careful and use your brains. 370 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: This post was found months later by Camilla and it 371 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: was enough to make her think Amy must have known 372 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: something was going on, so Camilla called her. 373 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 3: And these women it took two months for her to 374 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 3: really say, Okay, I'm going to Brazil. I'm going to 375 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 3: your talk show. 376 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: So Amy would appear next to Zahida on Pedro Biel's 377 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: primetime TV show Conversa Combial, both showing their faces as 378 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: they told their stories to the people of Brazil. This 379 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: is what the show needed to make the biggest impact. 380 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: Because they didn't know each other, they weren't from the 381 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: same group, they were not from Brazil because the Brazilians 382 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 3: weren't feeling safe enough to show their faces. So we 383 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 3: had two women coming from abroad, one from holland another 384 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 3: man from the United States for us to be able 385 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: to really put this man down. 386 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,959 Speaker 1: Things seemed to be on the right path, but they 387 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: still needed to reach out to John of God and 388 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: give them a chance to respond to the allegations. They 389 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: contacted him, and at first. 390 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 3: He was leading us on forever forever. Of course I 391 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 3: will talk to you, but wait, who did you interview? 392 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 3: Oh we can't tell. Of course we can't tell. But 393 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 3: what have you got on me? Or we can't tell? 394 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 3: We just we have the this and that, and then 395 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 3: we described the crimes we had and then he didn't 396 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 3: give us an inter. 397 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: Instead, in the days before the show was set to air, 398 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: John of God and his lawyers petitioned a judge to 399 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: keep the show from being released. After some deliberation, the 400 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: judge denied the petition. According to Camilla, he said. 401 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 3: No, this is a freedom of speech, and so he 402 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 3: just allowed us to air the show. 403 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, over at the newspaper oh Global. Christina and Elena 404 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: were still waiting to hear if their investigation would be published. 405 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 4: And it was decided that it would come out first 406 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 4: at the TV and then on the day after at 407 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 4: the newspaper. 408 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: This was of course disappointing for Christina and Elena, but 409 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: the network decided the story would make the biggest splash 410 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: if it came out first on the Pedro Bill show. 411 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 3: So we went out on the seventh of December we 412 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 3: were in twenty nineteen, and then on the next day 413 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 3: we had uh the newspaper Global on it, we had 414 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 3: the national news that we had everything on it. So 415 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 3: so because we we didn't want only to scratch it, 416 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 3: we wanted to really make an impact until the segment 417 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 3: went out, I was scared until until. 418 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 4: Then Ardia and Imagine. But as a little. 419 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 3: After the show was aired, all of that came out 420 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 3: on the next days. It was it was, it was 421 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 3: a hurricane. It was really spectacular the way the way 422 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 3: everything developed after that. 423 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: Miracle worker or monster. 424 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 3: He's known as John of God, a little Brasilano Joao 425 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 3: de des Cousado deris sexualist. 426 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: And a dozen women said the self style spiritual healer 427 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: had abused them at his clinic. 428 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 3: International they will Celebrida. 429 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: In the next episode. All of the journalists' hard work 430 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: pays off. The country is gripped by news that John 431 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: of God is potentially a serial rapist, and the legal 432 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: system is forced to respond by creating a task force 433 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: to investigate them. 434 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 3: I do think this story opened up the mid too 435 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 3: movement in Brazil. 436 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 4: Many women didn't even understand they'd been abused, don't see 437 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 4: the agus until the press brought up the caserias. Yeah, yeah, 438 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 4: thank TOVIVI. 439 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: I had lived years and years and years of my 440 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: life thinking that I had been the one person is. 441 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 4: Chosen to live through this. No for soil, No for soil. 442 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 3: It wasn't just me. 443 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: Listen to Two Faced John of God on the iHeartRadio app, 444 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There you 445 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: can also find this show en Espanol just look for 446 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: dos Garas Juan de Dios. Two Faced John of God 447 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: is a production of Exactly Right Media and Adonde Media, 448 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: hosted and written by myself Martina Castro. Our senior producer 449 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: is Mariano Paschela, reporting and fact checking by Iluisa Trajano. 450 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: Production assistance and research by Giovanna Romano Sanchez sound designed 451 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: by Maricio Mendoza and our mastering engineer is Martin Grus. 452 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: Original music was composed by Mariana Romano. The artwork is 453 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: by Vanessa Lilac. Luciano Miranda was interpreted by Andres Caabacho 454 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: and Camilla r by lauda Ubate for Exactly Right Media, 455 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: the executive producers are Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hard Stark and 456 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer, with consulting producer Lilli Ladowig and associate producer 457 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: Jay Elias