WEBVTT - Introducing Art Fraud: Episode 5: The David Herbert Collection 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey there, I'm Scott Rank, host of the podcast History 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.000 on plot Now. It really is a dream come true 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:07.520 to get paid to talk about history without all the stress, 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:09.639 while still being able to make a living. And I 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.360 did it with Spreaker from my Heart. Not only did 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:14.800 they make it super easy to monetize my podcast, but 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.520 at revenue is three to four times higher with Spreaker 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:19.880 than with any other host I've worked with. So if 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:21.639 you want to turn your passion into a podcast and 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.919 give this a try, visit spreaker dot com. That's sp 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.600 r e a k e r dot com. Get paid 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.199 to talk about the things you love. The Laundronouts a 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:36.960 potentially untrue tale based on actual events. A young boy 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:41.520 is shoved into a washing machine and vanishes. His friends 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:44.760 try to rescue him, only to discover a magical world 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:49.159 beyond the machine. Season one stars Ed Asner and Me, 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.800 John Cameron, Mitchell, Fine j D. Belzel and bring him 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.880 back home safely. Listen to The Laundronouts on the I 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.480 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or where where you get 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:08.480 your podcasts. Hi, I'm Anita Hill. You probably know me 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:13.959 or think you do. I've learned firsthand about our country shortcomings, 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:17.279 and despite it all, I still believe we can solve 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:23.200 society's biggest problems. My new podcast, Getting Eva is about 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.959 equality and what it takes to get there. Listen to 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:31.640 Getting Eva on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:37.200 or wherever you get your podcast. I have to say 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:44.160 that when I learned that this was one person, I 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:49.840 was a little flabbergasted. I really was, because these artists, yes, 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:55.160 they're all around the same period, but their styles are very, 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.200 very different, and he did a good job. I mean, 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.440 there are other fakes in art history, and as I 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:04.920 used to like to joke when I gave talks, the 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.600 best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You know 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:14.280 they don't even know or suspect that their fakes. By 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:18.440 two thousand two, an unlikely trio of con artists had 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:24.600 grown rich from their forgery Schemepra Rosalez had worked her 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:29.640 charms and unearthed a dazzling collection of abstract Expressionist paintings 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:34.320 destined for Ann Friedman to acquire for the Knodler Gallery, 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:39.000 and convinced herself that the works were genuine. She was 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.679 desperate to squeeze every dollar of profit she could from 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:47.880 the mysterious works works that had no provenance, and had 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.880 bought the paintings for unthinkably low prices and sold them 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.720 at sky high markups. The profit margin was so high 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.680 that the Knodler had come to rely on the mr 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:04.560 X Junior Collection for its very survival. Meanwhile, the fraudsters 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:10.720 were living the American dream. Carlos Bergantino's The Ideas man 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:16.040 Patient Kuon the artist and Glepa Rosalez, the resourceful salesperson, 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:21.560 had executed a scheme that was paying enormous dividends. Along 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:26.800 with rising profits, however, came increased risk. By two thousand two, 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.200 Jack and Fan Levy had spent upwards a four point 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:35.120 three million dollars acquiring master works from Knodler. The biggest 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:39.320 prize was a two million dollar Jackson pollock, identified simply 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:44.160 as untitled ninety nine. It had a greenish cast and 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:48.120 measured twelve by eighteen inches. It was small for a pollock, 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:53.440 but impressive all the same. Before the sale could be finalized, however, 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.720 Jack Levy insisted that the pollock be vetted by Eye 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:01.400 Far the International Foundation for Art rest Church. Up to 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.800 this point, none of the works brought in by Glafira 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:12.320 Rosalee had been subjected to forensic scrutiny, and Friedman was 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.320 so convinced of the works authenticity that she readily agreed 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:21.240 to the Leavi's terms. The work was already owned by 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:26.640 Jack Levey, so Noodler was not quote the client or 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.080 the person who submitted the work to eye FAR. There's 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.040 a lot of misunderstanding in the field about that. I 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.600 am Sharon Flesher. I'm executive director of the International Foundation 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.040 for Art Research, which is much better known under the 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:48.640 acronym by FAR. By far as experts provide a thorough 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.760 and impartial analysis of visual works of art through provenance 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:57.040 research and forensic testing. I FAR is also well known 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.560 for their pioneering work and art theft, having created the 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:05.479 first database of stolen art. I spoke with Sharon in 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:09.400 her corner office overlooking the New York Public Library. I FAR, 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.880 now a fifty year old institution, works with researchers and 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.560 forensics experts to help authenticate artwork submitted from all over 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.360 the world. Jack Levy purchased his pollock from the Knodler 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.480 with no inkling that it might be fake. Signing up 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:26.720 for an eye FAR analysis was a mere legal nicety, 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.800 or so he thought, despite the many pollocks that came 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.400 through I Far. Sharon too had no doubts that the 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:37.359 Levy pollock would prove to be right maas initial assumption was, 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:39.919 of course, this would be great, We're going to find 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.679 a new pollock, because it would never entered my mind 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.320 that a work that wouldn't be good would have been 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:53.000 sold through the no legality. Sharon was unaware of the 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.039 deal Jack Levy had struck with Ann Friedman and Knodler, 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.840 but to her, having the sale of the pollock be 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:03.200 contingent upon I Far determination of authenticity made a lot 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:08.400 of sense. My logic said to me that someone who 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:14.360 purchases a seventh figure work from a reputable gallery, if 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.000 the work turns out not to be what that person 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:21.000 hopes and expects it to be, that they will turn 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.240 right around to the gallery and try to get their 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:27.039 money back. Usually, when a buyer asks a gallery for 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.159 their money back, the gallery writes them a check instantly, 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.080 as a matter of course, reputations, after all, are at stake. 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.320 But what if the gallery insists the painting Israel and 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.680 refuses to give the buyer their money back. Acting on 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.240 her gut, Sharon took an extra measure to protect herself 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.839 and I Far I insisted that the node Le Gallery 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:56.880 sign an agreement saying they would not sue because there 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:01.120 would be nothing protecting us. Because if we didn't come 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.440 up with the positive review, I assumed we would. I 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.560 could just see exactly what would happen. It would be returned, 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.920 you'd get the money back, and then the gallery would say, well, 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.240 how can you prove that it's not you're defaming our name, 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.680 our character or whatever. It was just a vision I had, 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.200 and so I insisted that they signed something, and they did. 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.400 I Far began working on the Levy Pollock using the 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.760 same methods they would apply to any painting submitted for authenticity. 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.320 There are some steps that are consistent for every painting, 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.440 and then each project takes on a slight life of 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:44.400 its own. So we are very committed in general to 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.960 what I like to think of as a three pronged process, 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:54.360 which is scholarly research, connoisseurship, the expert eyes. We had 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:57.520 actually quite a few specialists who examined this work, in 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:01.800 some cases more than once, and the physical properties of 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:08.880 the work, which sometimes includes detailed lab examination forensic examination. 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.960 Right away, the scholarly research aspect of I far work 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.680 turned up red flags for starters. The paintings lack of 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:22.520 provenance was a problem for Sharon. We were sent the 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:27.840 skimpiest possible provenance information that one can be sent for 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.360 a work that is of a major artist and of 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:37.079 seven figure value, essentially nothing. And I actually personally called 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:41.480 Anne I Knew and and Culture to give them the 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.120 benefit of the doubt, saying we can be more helpful 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.760 on this project if you supply more information to us. 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:55.080 And at that time she actually said, you're researching the provenance, 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:01.360 as I said, of course, we always research the provenance. 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:03.800 What did you think? And she said, I thought you 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.079 would just bring experts together to look at the work 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.240 and say whether it's good. I said, we're doing that 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:17.880 as well. But of course we researched the provenance and 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.800 was in a predicament I far as work was thorough 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.840 and consistent, and because Jack Levy had officially submitted the 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.120 work to I Far, not Nodler, there was nothing Anne 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.920 could do to finesse her way out of the problem. 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:36.360 Sitting on Sharon's desk, the deeper I Far dug into 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.199 the history of the Levy Pollock the more nervous and 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.920 seemed to become for Sharon. The backstory just wasn't adding up. 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.880 It was just simply said and relayed to us. It 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:53.120 was acquired through Osorio. This was it. The Osorio story 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.680 conjured up by Gaelphrozalice had now made its way through 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:01.679 Ann Friedman to Sharon and I Far. Alfonso Osario had died, 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:06.240 but his longtime partner Ted Dragon was still alive. So 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:10.240 I contacted Dragon simply to find out, after he lived 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:14.920 with Osario from many years, could he provide information? Is 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:19.000 he familiar with this work? Is he aware of Osorio 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:23.880 ever having dealt with it? And what was Ted Dragon's reaction? 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.160 He had never seen the work. He didn't think there 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:31.880 was any connection whatsoever to Osario, because had there been, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:38.240 given his intimate relationship with Osario over so many years 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.400 and particularly at that period, that he would have known 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:46.760 if there was a connection. And we did other research 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.720 as well, and we could find nothing to substantiate the 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:57.600 Osario connection. The Osorio provenance was crumbling under scrutiny from 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.719 I Far. The whole notion of Osorio serving as a 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.920 middleman between dealers and artists want nowhere. But what about 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:10.679 the painting itself. This particular work was canvas mountain on masonite, 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.160 which is a type of fiberboard. Paula did have canvases 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:19.440 mounted on masonite. In this case, it was mounted on 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.920 the rough side of the masonite. Most of the ones 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.720 of his that were mounted were mounted on the smooth 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:31.439 side of the masonite, but he also painted directly on masonite. 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.559 I can't tell you that one of the specialists to 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:42.200 examine this work immediately was upset. They felt that it 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.960 was mounted on that mason I just so that we 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.920 couldn't see the back of the canvas. That's why they're 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.160 doing it, you know, to hide this. I put here 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:57.000 on the cover of a detail of the painting. Sharon 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.280 was showing me the cover of one of i far 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:05.160 publications from two thousand sixteen, titled Hindsight Lessons from the 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:09.840 Notler Rosalee Affair. On the cover are two rectangular photos 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:14.040 of Jackson Pollock's signatures on paintings. Red arrows indicate that 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.000 one is an actual Pollock, the other a fake. The 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.520 photos are zoomed in to show the detail of the 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:24.480 signature itself and the canvas. Here's the signature Jackson Pollock 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:28.320 forty nine. That's signed on that painting. And this is 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.959 the bottom you can see here, here's the canvas, and 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.559 here's the masonite. When Pollock did it. First of all, 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.840 he did it on the other side of the masonite, 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.720 on the smooth side, and he put some sizing on it. 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:47.280 And over the fifty year period from nine to two thousand, 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:52.480 the masonite with his sizing had aged and colored completely 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:58.079 differently than the masonite in this work. How interesting. Wow, 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.760 So you really had there was maybe a first red flag, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:02.839 for sure. It was more than the first red flag. 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.880 We already had some red flags, as I said earlier, 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:11.280 not just the provenance any connection whatsoever to Pollock. Are 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.760 their photo archives that show this work in the background. 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.319 Are their letters that mention a work that fits this description? 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:25.080 We did all of that. These were the kind of 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:30.160 telltale details that led I far to issue its shocking opinion. 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.400 We said we cannot accept the work as a work 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.720 by Jackson Pollock. It is the same as saying I'm 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.080 writing a catalog raison A and I'm not including your 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:47.559 work in the catalog raisin A. We've couched our words 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:52.480 because we couldn't hammer that nail in the coffin. Absolutely, 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.200 Anne was pretty ticked, was she not? Did she not 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:01.360 speak publicly and disparage by Far And she certainly spoke 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.920 privately and disparaged us to people, because it got back 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:09.199 to me all the time years later when she felt 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.880 free to talk about the Levy Pollock and I far 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.400 As rejection of it, and would blithely say, quote, there 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.079 was a recent history of bad feelings between I Far 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.400 and Knodler unquote Hi far as experts were biased and 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.000 implied that was why I far had nixed the painting, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.440 where I felt she impugned our integrity by saying there 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.240 was a history of bad feelings. Therefore she wanted to 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.160 dismiss what we said. First of all, there was no 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.920 history of bad feelings that I knew of, and certainly 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.400 not during my tenure, and I had already been here 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:47.520 a few years. But more importantly, to assert that even 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:51.880 if there were bad feelings, it might change our report. 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.520 I was incredulous that anyone would make such a statement 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.680 because we only exist becau cause of our good name 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.880 and our reputation for integrity. We're not going to sully 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.200 it and I'm not going to let anyone else sully 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:16.600 it with Far's final judgment on the Levee pollic in 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:20.720 two thousand three, and took the painting back very discreetly. 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.880 She returned the two million dollars to Jack Levy contractually 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.600 she had no choice. Shortly after the sale was refunded 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.400 and called a Canadian collector, David Mervish, with news that 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:38.000 she had a wonderful deal for him and was absolutely sure. 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.160 She said that I Far had been wrong and that 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:45.600 the painting was legitimate to back up her claim and 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:50.440 suggested that she herself, by a one third interest in Untitled. 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.480 The gallery would buy a partial share, as would Mervish. 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.960 Certainly they would sell the painting at some point for 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:04.120 a fortune. Mervish agreed, and Untitled nineteen forty nine was 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.800 duly put aside for that future day. Its eye Far 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:13.560 status kept quiet, but the damage was done. As Anne 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.040 later said in Vanity Fair, quote, it was a backfire 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.080 because Ted Dragon went crazy. Ossorio would never have hidden 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:25.240 anything from me unquote. That cast a pall over the 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:29.000 painting and the whole story of Osorio as middleman for 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:33.160 mister and missus. X Anne asked Glyphya, could mister and 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.400 missus X have been wrong had they or their son 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:41.640 confused Osorio with someone else? Glyphya promised to address the 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.680 issue and then came back with a change in the story. 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:54.960 More in a minute. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure? No? 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.400 What else? Girls in the forest? Our imagination, a sense 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.840 of wonder and a family bonds grow too, because when 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:08.639 we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.760 with each other. The forest is closer than you think. 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:15.399 Find a forest near you and start exploring. I Discover 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.959 the Forest dot Org. Brought to you by the United 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:23.840 States Forest Service and the AD Council. Hey, hey, this 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.480 is John O'Brien, entrepreneur and a fellow builder just like you. 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.440 Thanks you to help with I Heart Radio and Prudential Financial. 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.320 I'd like to present to you my brand new podcast 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.760 is called Building a Good Life. For each week, a 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:39.080 special friend and I will unpack and talk in detail 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:43.640 about financial literacy building, generational wealth building, that community building, 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:47.600 the best version of you, life lessons and whatever else 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.399 is on your mind. That's right, This is the time 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.360 for you to become the best version of who you are. 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.480 Using some of the best leaders in the world to 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.480 do it as they unpack and show a special side 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.240 of themselves you've never seen before. So if you're ready 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.520 to build the best version of you, you're ready to 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.360 build the next generation of what comes next. Make sure 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:10.600 to listen to Building a Good Life on the I 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:21.240 Heart Radio, a Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.800 I'm Arden Marine from Shameless and Statiable, Chelsea Lately and 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.480 the I Heart Radio podcast Will You Accept This Rose? 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.120 And I'm Julianne Robinson and Emmy and Baffton nominated director 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.240 most recently of Bridgetain. And we are the hosts of 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.520 Lady of the Road, a funny and inspiring podcast where 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.640 we have conversations with influential women about their lives and 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.600 we get self help advice. We're always looking to improve 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.359 ourselves and we figure there's no better source for learning 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.760 how to be brave, take risks and advocate for yourself 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:53.639 in life. But speaking with motivating, uplifting women, some of 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:55.520 them we've met throughout our careers and some of them 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.320 were just meeting now. We talk about money, health, relationships, parenthood, 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.320 running a busy, this you name it. From inspiring women 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:06.920 like Joan Jet Nicole Buyer, Lauren Lobkis, Retta, Ricky Lynt, 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.840 Tom Kate mccouchee, Kate Walsh, Shonda Land, producer, Betsy Bears 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:15.399 Adua and o Jen Kirkman and Moore. Listen and subscribe 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.720 to Lady of the Road on the I Heart Radio 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.800 app Apple podcasts over if would you get your podcasts? 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.440 As it turned out and was right, Oh, Sorio had 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.320 been in the mix, but only marginally, Sofia said. The 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.400 dealer who had handled most of those paintings for Mr. 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:37.640 And Mrs X was actually an art handler named David Herbert. 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:42.320 She was so sorry for any confusion. This is one 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.879 of those IFFI moments in the story where you raised 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.119 out one but two eyebrows and think, wait a minute, 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:56.400 how were you not suspicious when the entire backstory suddenly shifted. 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:02.080 That's author Maria Kanakova. Again. It shows a few things 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.359 the part of the con artists, obviously, it shows great 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:10.680 ingenuity and once again listening because Anne inadvertently told them 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.240 what to say, because she said, these are the holes, 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.879 these are the things that people are suspicious of. And 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.560 she even had suggestions, right, maybe was it? This? Was 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:25.040 it that? So she threw out things that they could 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:29.040 then use once again the con artists here, your job 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.000 is to listen and to figure out, Okay, what do 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.200 I need to change, what are they reacting to, what's working, 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:41.040 what's not working? David Herbert working wonderful. Let's keep him 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:43.520 in and try to figure out, you know, how, how 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.520 we can change the story to the elements that aren't working, 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.600 to fill in the parts of the narrative that are 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:54.919 causing us problems. Now. The other element, of course, is 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.000 if you're an how in the world do you not 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:01.480 see this. One of the things that I've argued over 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.800 and over again is that it's impossible to judge from 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:09.640 the outside, because from the outside your objective. From the inside, 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:11.760 once you're already in the middle of it, once you're 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:16.480 already emotionally involved, your objectivity is gone. It's really difficult. 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:20.240 It takes a very specific, strong person who probably would 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.480 not have gotten into the situation to begin with, to 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.240 be able to see clearly in the heat of the moment, 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:30.040 and most people just cannot do that. I think that 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.359 she was already so deep in the con that it 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.199 didn't strike her as weird. It just struck her as 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.960 we're getting more information. It's on an need to know basis, 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.040 as I need to know more. They tell me more. 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.040 Whereas for us, when we're looking at this, we're shaking 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:49.080 our heads and thinking wait, no, no, you're not allowed 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.320 to change the story. If you're and you're thinking, oh, okay, 0:21:52.400 --> 0:22:02.280 that makes sense, great, wonderful. David Herbert, now the key 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:06.000 figure in the back story, was a brilliant choice. He 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:09.280 was a real person whose modest life and times fit 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.480 the larger story, a dealer many in the art world 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:17.760 had known. Almost certainly, Anne had heard about Herbert through 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:22.680 Heimi Andrade, since Herbert had been Andrade's best friend for decades. 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:27.879 Also convenient, David Herbert had died just seven years prior, 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:33.920 in nineteen ninety five, his executor, none other than Heimi Andrade. 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:39.200 Into Andrade's hands went all of Herbert's files upon his death. 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:44.200 Possibly those files contained bits that might embellish Clyfeara's story 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:49.000 of Mister and Missus X. From what Anne now understood, 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:52.679 David Herbert had been more than a middleman between downtown 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.600 artists and mister X, setting up sales and taking commissions. 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:00.720 Herbert had been mister X's lover during long periods in 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:05.320 the nineteen fifties in New York. Once again, for Anne, 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:10.440 the result was the opportunity to access newly discovered masterpieces. 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:15.480 One key link between David Herbert and the art world 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:20.240 he inhabited was the legendary dealer Sydney Janis. After a 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.560 humble start in the garment industry, Janie had made his 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:28.000 fortune by inventing a two pocket men's Oxford shirt. His 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:32.040 true passion, however, was contemporary art that led him to 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.920 become a dealer, eventually representing many of the mid century greats. 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:40.240 In ninety eight, he opened a fifth floor gallery on Street, 0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:44.639 down the hall from another emerging and important dealer, Betty Parsons, 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:48.840 Much to parsons indignation, by nineteen fifty two, some of 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:51.560 her top artists had left her stable and moved down 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:55.120 the hall to Sydney Janis. She was more of an 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:59.320 artist than a dealer. She couldn't quite sell any of 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:03.200 the works of the artists. That that that was the problem. 0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:06.520 That's Carol Janis, one of Sydney Janis's two sons, who 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.640 worked in the gallery with his father for years. One 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:11.680 of the artists who came down the hall from Betty 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:16.760 Parsons was Jackson Pollock. Carol's father liked Pollock's work. He 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:19.760 was also sympathetic to the struggles that came with being 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:24.080 an artist. He bought a little painting from him during 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:29.040 that year forty four. He told me that he bought 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:33.200 it because poll was so poor that he just felt 0:24:33.240 --> 0:24:38.679 that he should buy something to Betty Parsons lifelong fury. 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:42.520 Pollock would move to the Sydney Janis Gallery for the 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:46.760 remainder of his career. Mark Rothko came down the hole too. 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:50.760 After issuing a modest plea. He told Sydney Janis that 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:53.680 he had to earn seventy dollars a year to support 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:57.359 his family. Could the Janis Gallery promise him that much? 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:01.919 Janis thought it was possible. In the first year he 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:09.920 made and that was big money in nineteen fifty two, 0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:15.840 over thousand dollars. Today, most downtown artists survived on a 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:20.160 lot less, some so strapped that they sold paintings out 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:23.399 of the back door, as it were, privately without the 0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:27.240 involvement of their dealer. That was how David Herbert played 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:33.640 into the story. Herbert was no figment of Ann Friedman's imagination. 0:25:34.200 --> 0:25:36.760 He was an art insider who at different times in 0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:40.680 the nineteen fifties worked for both Betty Parsons and Carol's father, 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:46.640 Sidney Janice. Herbert. Brought clients to various artists studios, introduced 0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:50.280 those clients to the artists, and handled the occasional back 0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:53.480 door selling of paintings to help them scrape by in 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:57.639 tough times. He was about five nine. I think he 0:25:57.720 --> 0:26:02.000 had a little mustache. Worked with Betty for a couple 0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:06.320 of years, I suppose partly as an arm handler and 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:09.399 partly to taught the clients coming in. He was not 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:13.600 very successful with Betty, but Betty came over and somehow 0:26:13.840 --> 0:26:17.560 talked my dad into giving him a job, which he 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:21.560 did give him. He was also gregarious and liked to 0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:25.520 talk to the clients. Everybody started to do was to 0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:31.120 take clients to artist studios and tried to sell them 0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:35.920 works out of the studios. At first, Sydney Jannis didn't mind. 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:40.080 It was something he was doing and as long as 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:42.960 he was doing it with any of the hundreds of 0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:45.680 artists in New York who were not with the gallery 0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:53.560 and didn't say anything. Unfortunately, David Herbert's eagerness to help 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:56.800 these far flung artists and perhaps to profit from them 0:26:57.000 --> 0:27:02.000 led to a bad end. All recalls Herbert handling money 0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:04.760 for one very important artist who was in fact a 0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:10.920 Janis artist, Willem Dacooning, gave to dead and asked him 0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:14.200 for an advance for his studio. He had gave him 0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:18.080 what he asked for, fifty thou dollars. Then the next 0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:20.560 year he came and he asked again for none of 0:27:20.640 --> 0:27:24.200 fifty and then that was quite a lot in those days. 0:27:24.359 --> 0:27:26.960 They told him that he wouldn't lend into him, so 0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:31.320 that meant cooning at the start, selling out of his 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:36.560