1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm Scott Rank, host of the podcast History 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: on plot Now. It really is a dream come true 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: to get paid to talk about history without all the stress, 4 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: while still being able to make a living. And I 5 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: did it with Spreaker from my Heart. Not only did 6 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: they make it super easy to monetize my podcast, but 7 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: at revenue is three to four times higher with Spreaker 8 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: than with any other host I've worked with. So if 9 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 1: you want to turn your passion into a podcast and 10 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: give this a try, visit spreaker dot com. That's sp 11 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: r e a k e r dot com. Get paid 12 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: to talk about the things you love. The Laundronouts a 13 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: potentially untrue tale based on actual events. A young boy 14 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: is shoved into a washing machine and vanishes. His friends 15 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: try to rescue him, only to discover a magical world 16 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: beyond the machine. Season one stars Ed Asner and Me, 17 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: John Cameron, Mitchell, Fine j D. Belzel and bring him 18 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: back home safely. Listen to The Laundronouts on the I 19 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or where where you get 20 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hi, I'm Anita Hill. You probably know me 21 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: or think you do. I've learned firsthand about our country shortcomings, 22 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,279 Speaker 1: and despite it all, I still believe we can solve 23 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: society's biggest problems. My new podcast, Getting Eva is about 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: equality and what it takes to get there. Listen to 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: Getting Eva on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 26 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. I have to say 27 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: that when I learned that this was one person, I 28 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: was a little flabbergasted. I really was, because these artists, yes, 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: they're all around the same period, but their styles are very, 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: very different, and he did a good job. I mean, 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: there are other fakes in art history, and as I 32 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: used to like to joke when I gave talks, the 33 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You know 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: they don't even know or suspect that their fakes. By 35 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: two thousand two, an unlikely trio of con artists had 36 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: grown rich from their forgery Schemepra Rosalez had worked her 37 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: charms and unearthed a dazzling collection of abstract Expressionist paintings 38 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: destined for Ann Friedman to acquire for the Knodler Gallery, 39 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: and convinced herself that the works were genuine. She was 40 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 1: desperate to squeeze every dollar of profit she could from 41 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: the mysterious works works that had no provenance, and had 42 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: bought the paintings for unthinkably low prices and sold them 43 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: at sky high markups. The profit margin was so high 44 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: that the Knodler had come to rely on the mr 45 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: X Junior Collection for its very survival. Meanwhile, the fraudsters 46 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: were living the American dream. Carlos Bergantino's The Ideas man 47 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: Patient Kuon the artist and Glepa Rosalez, the resourceful salesperson, 48 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: had executed a scheme that was paying enormous dividends. Along 49 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: with rising profits, however, came increased risk. By two thousand two, 50 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: Jack and Fan Levy had spent upwards a four point 51 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: three million dollars acquiring master works from Knodler. The biggest 52 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: prize was a two million dollar Jackson pollock, identified simply 53 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: as untitled ninety nine. It had a greenish cast and 54 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: measured twelve by eighteen inches. It was small for a pollock, 55 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: but impressive all the same. Before the sale could be finalized, however, 56 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: Jack Levy insisted that the pollock be vetted by Eye 57 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: Far the International Foundation for Art rest Church. Up to 58 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: this point, none of the works brought in by Glafira 59 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: Rosalee had been subjected to forensic scrutiny, and Friedman was 60 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: so convinced of the works authenticity that she readily agreed 61 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: to the Leavi's terms. The work was already owned by 62 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: Jack Levey, so Noodler was not quote the client or 63 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: the person who submitted the work to eye FAR. There's 64 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: a lot of misunderstanding in the field about that. I 65 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: am Sharon Flesher. I'm executive director of the International Foundation 66 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: for Art Research, which is much better known under the 67 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: acronym by FAR. By far as experts provide a thorough 68 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: and impartial analysis of visual works of art through provenance 69 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: research and forensic testing. I FAR is also well known 70 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: for their pioneering work and art theft, having created the 71 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: first database of stolen art. I spoke with Sharon in 72 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: her corner office overlooking the New York Public Library. I FAR, 73 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: now a fifty year old institution, works with researchers and 74 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: forensics experts to help authenticate artwork submitted from all over 75 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: the world. Jack Levy purchased his pollock from the Knodler 76 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: with no inkling that it might be fake. Signing up 77 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: for an eye FAR analysis was a mere legal nicety, 78 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: or so he thought, despite the many pollocks that came 79 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: through I Far. Sharon too had no doubts that the 80 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: Levy pollock would prove to be right maas initial assumption was, 81 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 1: of course, this would be great, We're going to find 82 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: a new pollock, because it would never entered my mind 83 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: that a work that wouldn't be good would have been 84 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: sold through the no legality. Sharon was unaware of the 85 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: deal Jack Levy had struck with Ann Friedman and Knodler, 86 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: but to her, having the sale of the pollock be 87 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: contingent upon I Far determination of authenticity made a lot 88 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: of sense. My logic said to me that someone who 89 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: purchases a seventh figure work from a reputable gallery, if 90 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: the work turns out not to be what that person 91 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: hopes and expects it to be, that they will turn 92 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: right around to the gallery and try to get their 93 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: money back. Usually, when a buyer asks a gallery for 94 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: their money back, the gallery writes them a check instantly, 95 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: as a matter of course, reputations, after all, are at stake. 96 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: But what if the gallery insists the painting Israel and 97 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: refuses to give the buyer their money back. Acting on 98 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: her gut, Sharon took an extra measure to protect herself 99 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: and I Far I insisted that the node Le Gallery 100 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: sign an agreement saying they would not sue because there 101 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: would be nothing protecting us. Because if we didn't come 102 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: up with the positive review, I assumed we would. I 103 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: could just see exactly what would happen. It would be returned, 104 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: you'd get the money back, and then the gallery would say, well, 105 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: how can you prove that it's not you're defaming our name, 106 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: our character or whatever. It was just a vision I had, 107 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: and so I insisted that they signed something, and they did. 108 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: I Far began working on the Levy Pollock using the 109 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: same methods they would apply to any painting submitted for authenticity. 110 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: There are some steps that are consistent for every painting, 111 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: and then each project takes on a slight life of 112 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: its own. So we are very committed in general to 113 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: what I like to think of as a three pronged process, 114 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: which is scholarly research, connoisseurship, the expert eyes. We had 115 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: actually quite a few specialists who examined this work, in 116 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: some cases more than once, and the physical properties of 117 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: the work, which sometimes includes detailed lab examination forensic examination. 118 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: Right away, the scholarly research aspect of I far work 119 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: turned up red flags for starters. The paintings lack of 120 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: provenance was a problem for Sharon. We were sent the 121 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: skimpiest possible provenance information that one can be sent for 122 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: a work that is of a major artist and of 123 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: seven figure value, essentially nothing. And I actually personally called 124 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: Anne I Knew and and Culture to give them the 125 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt, saying we can be more helpful 126 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: on this project if you supply more information to us. 127 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: And at that time she actually said, you're researching the provenance, 128 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: as I said, of course, we always research the provenance. 129 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: What did you think? And she said, I thought you 130 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: would just bring experts together to look at the work 131 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: and say whether it's good. I said, we're doing that 132 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: as well. But of course we researched the provenance and 133 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: was in a predicament I far as work was thorough 134 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: and consistent, and because Jack Levy had officially submitted the 135 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: work to I Far, not Nodler, there was nothing Anne 136 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: could do to finesse her way out of the problem. 137 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: Sitting on Sharon's desk, the deeper I Far dug into 138 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: the history of the Levy Pollock the more nervous and 139 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: seemed to become for Sharon. The backstory just wasn't adding up. 140 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: It was just simply said and relayed to us. It 141 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: was acquired through Osorio. This was it. The Osorio story 142 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: conjured up by Gaelphrozalice had now made its way through 143 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: Ann Friedman to Sharon and I Far. Alfonso Osario had died, 144 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: but his longtime partner Ted Dragon was still alive. So 145 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: I contacted Dragon simply to find out, after he lived 146 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: with Osario from many years, could he provide information? Is 147 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: he familiar with this work? Is he aware of Osorio 148 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: ever having dealt with it? And what was Ted Dragon's reaction? 149 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: He had never seen the work. He didn't think there 150 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: was any connection whatsoever to Osario, because had there been, 151 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: given his intimate relationship with Osario over so many years 152 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: and particularly at that period, that he would have known 153 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: if there was a connection. And we did other research 154 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: as well, and we could find nothing to substantiate the 155 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: Osario connection. The Osorio provenance was crumbling under scrutiny from 156 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: I Far. The whole notion of Osorio serving as a 157 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: middleman between dealers and artists want nowhere. But what about 158 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: the painting itself. This particular work was canvas mountain on masonite, 159 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: which is a type of fiberboard. Paula did have canvases 160 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: mounted on masonite. In this case, it was mounted on 161 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: the rough side of the masonite. Most of the ones 162 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: of his that were mounted were mounted on the smooth 163 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: side of the masonite, but he also painted directly on masonite. 164 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: I can't tell you that one of the specialists to 165 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: examine this work immediately was upset. They felt that it 166 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: was mounted on that mason I just so that we 167 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: couldn't see the back of the canvas. That's why they're 168 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: doing it, you know, to hide this. I put here 169 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: on the cover of a detail of the painting. Sharon 170 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: was showing me the cover of one of i far 171 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: publications from two thousand sixteen, titled Hindsight Lessons from the 172 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: Notler Rosalee Affair. On the cover are two rectangular photos 173 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: of Jackson Pollock's signatures on paintings. Red arrows indicate that 174 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: one is an actual Pollock, the other a fake. The 175 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: photos are zoomed in to show the detail of the 176 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: signature itself and the canvas. Here's the signature Jackson Pollock 177 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: forty nine. That's signed on that painting. And this is 178 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: the bottom you can see here, here's the canvas, and 179 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: here's the masonite. When Pollock did it. First of all, 180 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: he did it on the other side of the masonite, 181 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: on the smooth side, and he put some sizing on it. 182 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: And over the fifty year period from nine to two thousand, 183 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: the masonite with his sizing had aged and colored completely 184 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: differently than the masonite in this work. How interesting. Wow, 185 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: So you really had there was maybe a first red flag, 186 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 1: for sure. It was more than the first red flag. 187 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: We already had some red flags, as I said earlier, 188 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: not just the provenance any connection whatsoever to Pollock. Are 189 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: their photo archives that show this work in the background. 190 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: Are their letters that mention a work that fits this description? 191 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: We did all of that. These were the kind of 192 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: telltale details that led I far to issue its shocking opinion. 193 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: We said we cannot accept the work as a work 194 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: by Jackson Pollock. It is the same as saying I'm 195 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: writing a catalog raison A and I'm not including your 196 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: work in the catalog raisin A. We've couched our words 197 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: because we couldn't hammer that nail in the coffin. Absolutely, 198 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: Anne was pretty ticked, was she not? Did she not 199 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: speak publicly and disparage by Far And she certainly spoke 200 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: privately and disparaged us to people, because it got back 201 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 1: to me all the time years later when she felt 202 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: free to talk about the Levy Pollock and I far 203 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: As rejection of it, and would blithely say, quote, there 204 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: was a recent history of bad feelings between I Far 205 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: and Knodler unquote Hi far as experts were biased and 206 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: implied that was why I far had nixed the painting, 207 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: where I felt she impugned our integrity by saying there 208 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: was a history of bad feelings. Therefore she wanted to 209 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: dismiss what we said. First of all, there was no 210 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: history of bad feelings that I knew of, and certainly 211 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: not during my tenure, and I had already been here 212 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: a few years. But more importantly, to assert that even 213 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: if there were bad feelings, it might change our report. 214 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: I was incredulous that anyone would make such a statement 215 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: because we only exist becau cause of our good name 216 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: and our reputation for integrity. We're not going to sully 217 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: it and I'm not going to let anyone else sully 218 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: it with Far's final judgment on the Levee pollic in 219 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: two thousand three, and took the painting back very discreetly. 220 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: She returned the two million dollars to Jack Levy contractually 221 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: she had no choice. Shortly after the sale was refunded 222 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: and called a Canadian collector, David Mervish, with news that 223 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: she had a wonderful deal for him and was absolutely sure. 224 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: She said that I Far had been wrong and that 225 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: the painting was legitimate to back up her claim and 226 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: suggested that she herself, by a one third interest in Untitled. 227 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: The gallery would buy a partial share, as would Mervish. 228 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: Certainly they would sell the painting at some point for 229 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: a fortune. Mervish agreed, and Untitled nineteen forty nine was 230 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: duly put aside for that future day. Its eye Far 231 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: status kept quiet, but the damage was done. As Anne 232 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: later said in Vanity Fair, quote, it was a backfire 233 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: because Ted Dragon went crazy. Ossorio would never have hidden 234 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: anything from me unquote. That cast a pall over the 235 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: painting and the whole story of Osorio as middleman for 236 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: mister and missus. X Anne asked Glyphya, could mister and 237 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: missus X have been wrong had they or their son 238 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: confused Osorio with someone else? Glyphya promised to address the 239 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: issue and then came back with a change in the story. 240 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: More in a minute. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure? No? 241 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: What else? Girls in the forest? Our imagination, a sense 242 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: of wonder and a family bonds grow too, because when 243 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect 244 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: with each other. The forest is closer than you think. 245 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: Find a forest near you and start exploring. I Discover 246 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,959 Speaker 1: the Forest dot Org. Brought to you by the United 247 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: States Forest Service and the AD Council. Hey, hey, this 248 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: is John O'Brien, entrepreneur and a fellow builder just like you. 249 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: Thanks you to help with I Heart Radio and Prudential Financial. 250 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: I'd like to present to you my brand new podcast 251 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: is called Building a Good Life. For each week, a 252 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: special friend and I will unpack and talk in detail 253 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: about financial literacy building, generational wealth building, that community building, 254 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: the best version of you, life lessons and whatever else 255 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: is on your mind. That's right, This is the time 256 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: for you to become the best version of who you are. 257 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: Using some of the best leaders in the world to 258 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: do it as they unpack and show a special side 259 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: of themselves you've never seen before. So if you're ready 260 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: to build the best version of you, you're ready to 261 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: build the next generation of what comes next. Make sure 262 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: to listen to Building a Good Life on the I 263 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, a Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, 264 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: I'm Arden Marine from Shameless and Statiable, Chelsea Lately and 265 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio podcast Will You Accept This Rose? 266 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: And I'm Julianne Robinson and Emmy and Baffton nominated director 267 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: most recently of Bridgetain. And we are the hosts of 268 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: Lady of the Road, a funny and inspiring podcast where 269 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: we have conversations with influential women about their lives and 270 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: we get self help advice. We're always looking to improve 271 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: ourselves and we figure there's no better source for learning 272 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: how to be brave, take risks and advocate for yourself 273 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: in life. But speaking with motivating, uplifting women, some of 274 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: them we've met throughout our careers and some of them 275 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: were just meeting now. We talk about money, health, relationships, parenthood, 276 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: running a busy, this you name it. From inspiring women 277 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: like Joan Jet Nicole Buyer, Lauren Lobkis, Retta, Ricky Lynt, 278 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: Tom Kate mccouchee, Kate Walsh, Shonda Land, producer, Betsy Bears 279 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: Adua and o Jen Kirkman and Moore. Listen and subscribe 280 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: to Lady of the Road on the I Heart Radio 281 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: app Apple podcasts over if would you get your podcasts? 282 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: As it turned out and was right, Oh, Sorio had 283 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: been in the mix, but only marginally, Sofia said. The 284 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: dealer who had handled most of those paintings for Mr. 285 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: And Mrs X was actually an art handler named David Herbert. 286 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: She was so sorry for any confusion. This is one 287 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: of those IFFI moments in the story where you raised 288 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: out one but two eyebrows and think, wait a minute, 289 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: how were you not suspicious when the entire backstory suddenly shifted. 290 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: That's author Maria Kanakova. Again. It shows a few things 291 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: the part of the con artists, obviously, it shows great 292 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: ingenuity and once again listening because Anne inadvertently told them 293 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: what to say, because she said, these are the holes, 294 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: these are the things that people are suspicious of. And 295 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: she even had suggestions, right, maybe was it? This? Was 296 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: it that? So she threw out things that they could 297 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: then use once again the con artists here, your job 298 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: is to listen and to figure out, Okay, what do 299 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: I need to change, what are they reacting to, what's working, 300 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: what's not working? David Herbert working wonderful. Let's keep him 301 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: in and try to figure out, you know, how, how 302 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: we can change the story to the elements that aren't working, 303 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: to fill in the parts of the narrative that are 304 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: causing us problems. Now. The other element, of course, is 305 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: if you're an how in the world do you not 306 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: see this. One of the things that I've argued over 307 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: and over again is that it's impossible to judge from 308 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: the outside, because from the outside your objective. From the inside, 309 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: once you're already in the middle of it, once you're 310 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: already emotionally involved, your objectivity is gone. It's really difficult. 311 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: It takes a very specific, strong person who probably would 312 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: not have gotten into the situation to begin with, to 313 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: be able to see clearly in the heat of the moment, 314 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: and most people just cannot do that. I think that 315 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: she was already so deep in the con that it 316 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 1: didn't strike her as weird. It just struck her as 317 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: we're getting more information. It's on an need to know basis, 318 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: as I need to know more. They tell me more. 319 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: Whereas for us, when we're looking at this, we're shaking 320 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: our heads and thinking wait, no, no, you're not allowed 321 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: to change the story. If you're and you're thinking, oh, okay, 322 00:21:52,400 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: that makes sense, great, wonderful. David Herbert, now the key 323 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: figure in the back story, was a brilliant choice. He 324 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: was a real person whose modest life and times fit 325 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: the larger story, a dealer many in the art world 326 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: had known. Almost certainly, Anne had heard about Herbert through 327 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: Heimi Andrade, since Herbert had been Andrade's best friend for decades. 328 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: Also convenient, David Herbert had died just seven years prior, 329 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five, his executor, none other than Heimi Andrade. 330 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: Into Andrade's hands went all of Herbert's files upon his death. 331 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: Possibly those files contained bits that might embellish Clyfeara's story 332 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: of Mister and Missus X. From what Anne now understood, 333 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: David Herbert had been more than a middleman between downtown 334 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: artists and mister X, setting up sales and taking commissions. 335 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: Herbert had been mister X's lover during long periods in 336 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties in New York. Once again, for Anne, 337 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: the result was the opportunity to access newly discovered masterpieces. 338 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: One key link between David Herbert and the art world 339 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: he inhabited was the legendary dealer Sydney Janis. After a 340 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: humble start in the garment industry, Janie had made his 341 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: fortune by inventing a two pocket men's Oxford shirt. His 342 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: true passion, however, was contemporary art that led him to 343 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: become a dealer, eventually representing many of the mid century greats. 344 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: In ninety eight, he opened a fifth floor gallery on Street, 345 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: down the hall from another emerging and important dealer, Betty Parsons, 346 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: Much to parsons indignation, by nineteen fifty two, some of 347 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: her top artists had left her stable and moved down 348 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: the hall to Sydney Janis. She was more of an 349 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: artist than a dealer. She couldn't quite sell any of 350 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: the works of the artists. That that that was the problem. 351 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: That's Carol Janis, one of Sydney Janis's two sons, who 352 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: worked in the gallery with his father for years. One 353 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: of the artists who came down the hall from Betty 354 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: Parsons was Jackson Pollock. Carol's father liked Pollock's work. He 355 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: was also sympathetic to the struggles that came with being 356 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: an artist. He bought a little painting from him during 357 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: that year forty four. He told me that he bought 358 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: it because poll was so poor that he just felt 359 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: that he should buy something to Betty Parsons lifelong fury. 360 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: Pollock would move to the Sydney Janis Gallery for the 361 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: remainder of his career. Mark Rothko came down the hole too. 362 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: After issuing a modest plea. He told Sydney Janis that 363 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: he had to earn seventy dollars a year to support 364 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: his family. Could the Janis Gallery promise him that much? 365 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: Janis thought it was possible. In the first year he 366 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: made and that was big money in nineteen fifty two, 367 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: over thousand dollars. Today, most downtown artists survived on a 368 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: lot less, some so strapped that they sold paintings out 369 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: of the back door, as it were, privately without the 370 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: involvement of their dealer. That was how David Herbert played 371 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: into the story. Herbert was no figment of Ann Friedman's imagination. 372 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: He was an art insider who at different times in 373 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties worked for both Betty Parsons and Carol's father, 374 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: Sidney Janice. Herbert. Brought clients to various artists studios, introduced 375 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: those clients to the artists, and handled the occasional back 376 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: door selling of paintings to help them scrape by in 377 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: tough times. He was about five nine. I think he 378 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: had a little mustache. Worked with Betty for a couple 379 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: of years, I suppose partly as an arm handler and 380 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: partly to taught the clients coming in. He was not 381 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: very successful with Betty, but Betty came over and somehow 382 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: talked my dad into giving him a job, which he 383 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: did give him. He was also gregarious and liked to 384 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: talk to the clients. Everybody started to do was to 385 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: take clients to artist studios and tried to sell them 386 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: works out of the studios. At first, Sydney Jannis didn't mind. 387 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: It was something he was doing and as long as 388 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: he was doing it with any of the hundreds of 389 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: artists in New York who were not with the gallery 390 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: and didn't say anything. Unfortunately, David Herbert's eagerness to help 391 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: these far flung artists and perhaps to profit from them 392 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: led to a bad end. All recalls Herbert handling money 393 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: for one very important artist who was in fact a 394 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: Janis artist, Willem Dacooning, gave to dead and asked him 395 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: for an advance for his studio. He had gave him 396 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: what he asked for, fifty thou dollars. Then the next 397 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: year he came and he asked again for none of 398 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: fifty and then that was quite a lot in those days. 399 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: They told him that he wouldn't lend into him, so 400 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: that meant cooning at the start, selling out of his 401 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: studio because he needed the money to pay for the gallery. Yeah, 402 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: and the handling that directly because he loved the cooning 403 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: and Decooning love of the gallery. And now they were 404 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: at Aspacaules. He was selling out of his studio but 405 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: not giving the gallery its commission, and David Herbert was 406 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: in the thick of it, paying Daconing for works the 407 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: painter was selling for money he desperately needed. Herbert had 408 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: to go about Mannie well, he let him go immediately. 409 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: It was easy to imagine how Anne Friedman could have 410 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: believed the story of a feckless art handler who bowed 411 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: and sold works on his own. By the nineteen seventies 412 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: and eighties, almost everyone in the art world knew of 413 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: David Herbert. He remained a droll character from the same 414 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: Demi Mond as Alfonso Ossorio and Haim Andrade. Painter Bill 415 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: Draper would give two day parties, as one dealer says, 416 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: and Herbert would be there along with his dear friends 417 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,959 Speaker 1: Jime Andrade and Richard brown Baker. There too would be 418 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: brook Aster, Mayor John Lindsay, an art Maven Marian Javits. 419 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: It was an indulgent and freer time. By then, Herbert 420 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: had begun to struggle. He threw in with the distinguished 421 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: dealer Richard Fiken for a short lived venture no managerial 422 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: skills at Piken later grumbled. Despite his lack of funds, 423 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: Herbert never lost his sense of humor. He would come 424 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: into the Knoedler and pretend he was a collector. It 425 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: calls a Knodler staffer. Herbert would say, I'm furious that 426 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: Kndler has not delivered my art for three months. I've 427 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: been calling. I've paid for it already unquote. He was funny, 428 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: says the staffer. By the time David Herbert died, he'd 429 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: become almost a destitute. He had a very hard last 430 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: couple of years, recalls a friend from his gallery. He 431 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: was basically living on friends and really had no retirement money. 432 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: As long as David Herbert was alive, these paintings weren't 433 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: going to come out. And Friedman said in vanity fair quote, 434 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: the fear was that if the paintings came out while 435 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: Herbert was alive, Herbert might have been extremely upset and 436 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: he might have revealed the identity of the owner. There's 437 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: no question that the paintings would have been paid for 438 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: with cash, taxes not paid, assets not declared, and you 439 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: can go to jail for that end quote. So sure 440 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: was Anne about the newly modified back story that she 441 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: even gave a new name to the paintings coming from 442 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: Glafira Rosalis. The paintings, she said, now constituted that David 443 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: Herbert collection. Once David Herbert passed away, and said, that's 444 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: when Mr x Jr. Felt he could release these paintings. 445 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: More than one k Nodler staffer saw a victim in retrospect, 446 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: him Andrade. Perhaps Andrade had told Anne stories of his 447 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: old friend David Herbert. Maybe he had acknowledged that Herbert 448 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: might have sold some of these paintings on the Slyde. Still, 449 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: if he had colluded with Anne and Glyphia, where was 450 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: the profit in it for him? Himie did not profit 451 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: from it. He never got a commission, so there's nothing 452 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: on him, says an ex Ndler staffer. He was horrified 453 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: by all that happened. The staffer adds, I feel very 454 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: sorry for him. He's a gentleman of the older kind. 455 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: And now all and Ratty had was a ghostly cobweb 456 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: department filled with South American art next door to the 457 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: gallery he loved so much. As for David Herbert, he 458 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: too seemed a victim, even if a posthumous one. It's 459 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: very easy to put something on him because he's not 460 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: around to dispute it, said Herbert's friend from the gallery. 461 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: What should have been early red flags at the Knoedler Gallery, 462 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: those early Deep and Corn drawings, that brilliant Rothko and 463 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: now the returned Levy Pollock instead remained art world secrets. 464 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: For now. None of them stirred any attention because sales 465 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: of the works remained confidential. As it turned out, the 466 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: Levy Pollock that I far had judged to be not 467 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: a legitimate work, was actually one of several to Apollox 468 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: that Ann Friedman would eventually snatch up from a Rosales 469 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: more art fraud in a minute, Look for your children's 470 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's 471 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. 472 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms 473 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They 474 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: see a windy path that could lead to adventure, and 475 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: they see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? 476 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: Find a forest near you and start exploring it. Discover 477 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: the forest dot org, brought to you by the United 478 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,719 Speaker 1: States Forest Service and the ad Council. Hei there. I'm 479 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: Scott Rank, host of the podcast History Unplugged, and if 480 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: you're dreaming of being a full time podcaster someday, you 481 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: and I have a lot in common. I used to 482 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: teach history for a living, which was great, but I 483 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: wanted to thing more and maybe you know what I mean. 484 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: So I gave podcasting a try, and I did it 485 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: with spreaker from my heart. I could explain how it 486 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: works in about ninety seconds. But all you really need 487 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: to know now is that, in my experience, the AD 488 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: revenue with Spreaker has been three to four times higher 489 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: than it has been with any other host I've worked with. 490 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: Now I get to do what I'm passionate about, teach history, 491 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: but with more freedom and less stress, while still earning 492 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: a respectable salary. From just getting started and doing the 493 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: very basic stuff to taking your podcast in whatever direction 494 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: you want to take it, Spriaker has all sorts of 495 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: great tools. So if you want to turn your passion 496 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: into a podcast and give this a try, visit speaker 497 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: dot com. That's sp r e a k e r 498 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: dot com. Get paid to talk about the things you 499 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: love with Spreaker. From I Heart. From Cavalry Audio, the 500 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: studio that brought you The Devil Within and The Shadow Goes, 501 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: comes a new true crime podcast, The Pink Moon Wods. 502 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: The local sheriff believes there may be more than one killery. 503 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: It's been four days since those bodies were found and 504 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: there's no arrest as it this morning. They were afraid 505 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: he's face it out in that area, what if they 506 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: come back or whatever. It scared me to death, like 507 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 1: it scared me. I was very, very intimidating to live here. 508 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: Crazy to think you go to sleep one night, maybe 509 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: snuggling with your loved one, and never wake up, or 510 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: maybe you wake up in a struggle for your life, 511 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 1: which you lose. Joint host David Radamant as he explores 512 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: one fateful night when evil descended upon small town, Ohio 513 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: killed eight members of an Ohio family in a pre 514 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: planned execution. The family was targeted, most of them targeted 515 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: while they were sleeping. Follow the Pink Moon murders on 516 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 517 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, no one knew the true story of 518 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: the Knodler Galleries finances. Later, when the galleries money manager 519 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: testified at trial, he would say that the paintings of 520 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: the David Herbert collection were not merely helpful to the 521 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: galleries bottom line, they were essential. Without those sales, the 522 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: k Noodler would have been losing big money by two 523 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: thousand four, Thanks to a paintings the Ndler was at 524 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: least getting by Joe Stephens, the noted is long serving 525 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: art handler since the true state of the gallery, when 526 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: he was abruptly fired after nearly forty five years on 527 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: the job. My heart and soul was in that place. 528 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: I loved work in there, and I was good at it. 529 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: To be honest, I wanted to kill her. I hated 530 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: her guts and I don't hate anybody, but she made 531 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: life miserable for me and the girls by keeping him there. Everything. 532 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: She walked three blocks and she's home. I think she 533 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: knew that. I knew things were going on. That's probably 534 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,879 Speaker 1: why I got dumped. I don't know for sure. Can 535 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: we put it that way as your suspicion? And was 536 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: now squarely focused on selling works from the David Herbert collection, 537 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: and that was becoming a very dangerous enterprise. By two 538 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: thousand five, the contemporary art market had soared thanks to 539 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: a fivefold increase in new billionaires since the nineteen eighties. 540 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: And the billionaires loved contemporary art. They loved the status 541 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: it conferred to. Most of all, they loved the profits 542 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 1: many contemporary artists were generating. The new meme was art 543 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: as an asset. The market was now more than a 544 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 1: place to buy and sell art, It was a lifestyle. 545 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: Wealthy collectors jetted to art fares around the world, greeting 546 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: each other like old friends. They attended glittering parties held 547 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: by the biggest and most powerful dealers at the Venice 548 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: Bionale at Art Basel in Switzerland and at the Freeze 549 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: Fairs in London, l A and New York. Entree to 550 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: the club didn't require old money or expertise in art, 551 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: not anymore. All you needed to join the club with 552 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: money and a willingness to spend it. Art has become 553 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: the status symbol, as dealer Gavin Brown put it, the 554 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: lingua franca of the wealthy. At some point in the 555 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: early two thousand's, Clafira and Carlos attempted to open their 556 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 1: own gallery in the Chelsea neighborhood of New York City. 557 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: It was aloft on nineteen Street. Carlos called it King's 558 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: Fine Art. Records suggest he staged exactly one opening a 559 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: trio of Cuban American artists who went Nowherefra found the 560 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: gallery ridiculous. You know, he was a show off, and 561 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: he wants to presume that he was a businessman. Of course, 562 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: did you work with him at that gallery or no? 563 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: They will not really like I said so occasionally in 564 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: and and she was the one who was putting it together. 565 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: The Chelsea Loft that Carlos opened was a bush league 566 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: effort to join the art market in earnest serious dealers. 567 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: Those who, for starters, dealt in authentic art were in 568 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: a whole other world, one that Carlos and could only 569 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: dream of. By now, the best abstract expressionist works were 570 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: all but impossible to acquire unless she were willing to 571 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: pay stratospheric prices. Hedge fund manager Ken Griffin would become 572 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: famous for buying a Dacooning and a Pollock in a 573 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 1: package deal for five hundred million dollars. With all this frenzy, 574 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,320 Speaker 1: the contemporary art market rose from roughly twenty billion in 575 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 1: two thousand to sixty three billion in two thousand eight. 576 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 1: In the midst of this hyperactive market, Anne had begun 577 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: publicly showcasing works from the David Abert collection. The mecca 578 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: for New York art dealers was the annual Armory Show, 579 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: hosted by the Art Dealers Association of America or a 580 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: d a a. The Park Avenue Armory is a vast, 581 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: high vaulted space that once sheltered Union military troops and 582 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: their horses. Any dealer worth their salt was compelled to 583 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: rent a booth at the Armory Show, seemingly confident that 584 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: her latest works from the David Herbert collection were genuine, 585 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: and began displaying the paintings at each A D A 586 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: A show. Every time we got a painting from Glafira, 587 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: we'd hang it in the Knoedler's booth at the Armory, 588 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: and later told Vanity Fair had anyone found anything wrong, 589 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: she noted, believe me, I would have been told take 590 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: that down off the wall. She would never take more 591 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: than one of those to the Armory Show, notes one 592 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: ex staffer. It might be flanked by a great Milton 593 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: Avery landscape, or maybe a Robert Motherwell. So it was 594 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: surrounded by the Creme de la creme with impeccable provenance. 595 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't some po dunk Pollock. Another ex staffer rolls 596 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: his eyes at that there was either a Pollock or 597 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: a Newman on display at the Nodler booth. The staff 598 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: are recalls of one year's display. People began whispering, you 599 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: have to go look, but don't say anything. Everyone knew 600 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: it was fake. Everyone was laughing about it. But as 601 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: Patricia Cohen of The New York Times notes, they were 602 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: all instructed by lawyers not to say anything, why the 603 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: fear of being sued. As those brilliant but baffling works 604 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,800 Speaker 1: kept popping up, Freedman's fellow dealers made a blood sport 605 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: and speculating about which, if any, of the paintings in 606 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,359 Speaker 1: the David Herbert collection were real, and why did Ann 607 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: Freedman keep promoting pictures one after another that had no 608 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: provenance As one Armory show followed another, and believed that 609 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: her paintings were acquiring provenance, I simply being exhibited. Dealers 610 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: found that absurd bullshit, that it's a building block towards authentication. 611 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: One dealer snorted, she kept trotting out this ship at 612 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 1: the Armory shows. I saw the Barnet Newman there, the 613 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: Rothco there, the Pollock there. All were fake, the dealer 614 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: muttered to his colleagues. Yet Anne seemed oblivious to their inauthenticity. 615 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: The dealer said, if you don't have an eye, and 616 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: you don't have the ability to discern differences in an 617 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: artist's work, you're lost. I don't care how much secondary 618 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: research you do, and left those Armory shows with a 619 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: sense of exultation. Her masterpieces had survived another gauntlet, A 620 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: few of her rival dealers even through her a word 621 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: of affirmation, a vague word or two, but enough for 622 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: Anne to go on the Levy. Pollock declared all but fake. 623 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: By e far had incensed Anne worse, and it jeopardized 624 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: the business she'd worked so hard to keep afloat. The 625 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: Nodler needed a miracle. Magically, Fra would conjure up at 626 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: Jackson Pollock painting so brilliant that no one would cast 627 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: doubt on its authenticity, one that would ultimately command the 628 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: highest price ever paid for a work. Emerging from patient 629 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: Kwan's garage in Queens must have been January two thou twenty, 630 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: and he started talking to me about the Nodler case. 631 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 1: He was running a tuxedo so as I was a 632 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 1: big formal wedding, and I said, well, somebody told me 633 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: that Pierre Le Grande was a really stupid person. I said, 634 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: I think that buying a painting for Man Friedman, he 635 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: must be a real dumb shit. He got screwed for 636 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: seventeen million dollars. And he looked at me and he said, 637 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:56,720 Speaker 1: on Pierre le grand the seventeen million dollar Jackson Pollock, 638 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: that's next time on art Fraud Love laughs at a King. 639 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: Things don't be the thing on the Street of Dreams, 640 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: Dreams broken into can't be made like new on the 641 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: Street of Dreams. Art Fraud is brought to you by 642 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,359 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Cavalry Audio. Our executive producers are 643 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: Matt del Piano, Keegan Rosenberger, Andy Turner, myself, and Michael Shnayerson. 644 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: We're produced by Brandon Morgan and Zach McNeice. Zach also 645 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: edited and mixed this episode. Lindsay Hoffman is our managing producer. 646 00:43:46,800 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: Our writer is Michael Schneerson. H Hi, this is Bill Clinton. 647 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: After years of being interviewed, I'm looking forward to doing 648 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 1: the interviewing. Please join me on Who Am I Telling 649 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: You This for conversations with some of the most fascinating 650 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: people I know. We'll share stories and talk about ideas 651 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,240 Speaker 1: that deserve more attention and why we should be hopeful 652 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: and optimistic about our future. Listen to Why Am I 653 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: Telling You This on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 654 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. From Cavalry Audio, the 655 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 1: studio that brought you The Devil Within and The Shadow Girls, 656 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: comes a new true crime podcast, The Pink Moon murders. 657 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: The local sheriff believes there may be more than killer. 658 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 1: They were afraid he's face it out in that area. 659 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: The family was targeted, most of them targeted while they 660 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,319 Speaker 1: were sleeping. Who could commit such horrible crimes and why 661 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,919 Speaker 1: follow the Pink Moon murders On the I Heart radio app, 662 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, look for 663 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: your children's eyes and you will discover the true magic 664 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,839 Speaker 1: of a forest. Find a forest near you and start 665 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: exploring it. Discover the forest dot org. Brought to you 666 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,760 Speaker 1: by the United States Forest Service and the ad Council