Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective.
Speaker 1: I'm Ben O'Brien and this week I'm joined by a
Speaker 1: lot of an eagle, the great honest but tell us
Speaker 1: in the Meat Eater Incorporated Office here in Bozeman, Montana,
Speaker 1: and we're going to have a conversation in this episode
Speaker 1: about ethics, really just Q and A about ethics. Everybody
Speaker 1: out there listening. We asked you to to send us
Speaker 1: some questions or quandaries around ethical situations and hunting and
Speaker 1: you and you did that in spades, and we really
Speaker 1: appreciate that. Man. There was a lot of responses. We
Speaker 1: couldn't get to them all, but I think we got
Speaker 1: some good ones. And the reason why I think Yanni
Speaker 1: is the best to tackle some of these quandaries is
Speaker 1: the fact that there's not a whole lot of fluff
Speaker 1: where the eagle is involved. He kind of says what
Speaker 1: he means and means what he says. There's not a
Speaker 1: whole lot of extra burbage in there, and that's why
Speaker 1: I like about the eagle. So hopefully you enjoyed this
Speaker 1: episode on in Collective featuring Yeah, I need to tell us,
Speaker 1: all right, what are you saying again, I was saying
Speaker 1: that you and I were taking deep breaths getting ready
Speaker 1: to start podcasting and talking. And uh, it reminded me
Speaker 1: that listened to a Ted talk. I didn't watch it,
Speaker 1: and I just listened, and the gal studied about it
Speaker 1: was basically like human um body posture and like the
Speaker 1: sort of endorphins that your body creates as you're in
Speaker 1: different postures and like though and and then she compared
Speaker 1: like male postures and female postures the postures that I'm
Speaker 1: in right now with like the feet kicked up on
Speaker 1: the table and you aren't your hands blocked, your fingers
Speaker 1: locked behind your arm, elbows out to the side. She
Speaker 1: called that like the president like or something like that.
Speaker 1: And there's all these pictures of like Obama and Bush
Speaker 1: and dude body is like at their desk, feet kicked
Speaker 1: up and it's a very powerful posture, right, she was saying.
Speaker 1: So there's the test that she did, and it's remarkable
Speaker 1: to listen to this. Like she people were going into
Speaker 1: an interview and some people were just sat in the
Speaker 1: interview room um curled over their phones doing whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: hunched over. The other people were asked to like for
Speaker 1: two minutes going to the other room and basically stand
Speaker 1: around like superman like, arms crossed, chest, pumped out, legs,
Speaker 1: kind of spread out, stretch your arms, do some stuff
Speaker 1: like that. And like it's like everybody that did that
Speaker 1: just scored exponentially better by doing that one simple thing.
Speaker 1: That it's a confidence thing. Yeah, because like whatever, I
Speaker 1: forget the endorphin, a chemical whatever that was released in
Speaker 1: your body. But and again it goes. And she was
Speaker 1: comparing it to the male versus female thing that in
Speaker 1: like a classroom setting, it's males assume those postures much
Speaker 1: more often, And she was and that might be a
Speaker 1: big reason that why in a classroom mail might jump
Speaker 1: up and answer a question faster, sooner, or just feel
Speaker 1: more confident to do that in the first place. Well,
Speaker 1: now I feel a little a little conscious about my
Speaker 1: posture right now. I'm a little uncomfortable moving back and
Speaker 1: forth in my chair. Well, now, I always started, I
Speaker 1: always look at other people. Now I'm like, it's been
Speaker 1: exhibiting a presidential posture or is he leading over his phone?
Speaker 1: Like yeahs in the basement, are you confident over there?
Speaker 1: I'm relaxed. I'm relaxed. I don't feel we should be. Man,
Speaker 1: it's two pm on a Friday and snowing, we're watching
Speaker 1: it come white outside. Uh, you know, the weeks over,
Speaker 1: we both I think we both really kicked ask this week.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, I think you did well. You
Speaker 1: went at the at the cookbook launch event downtown Bozeman.
Speaker 1: You signed boy a couple I think it was uppards,
Speaker 1: you know, seventy five books. I think you signs. Took
Speaker 1: a couple of pictures with some fans. We had fans
Speaker 1: man from New Jersey. Yeah. Man, those guys came up
Speaker 1: to me, They're like, oh, I was. We were on
Speaker 1: the plane from you know wherever, from d C. I
Speaker 1: was like, what you came that far? Oh yeah, we
Speaker 1: came from New Jersey. I think they might have came
Speaker 1: there ironical because of the cat lady comment you never
Speaker 1: know we're going we're going there. But yeah, they just
Speaker 1: came for just that event. And they were like, so,
Speaker 1: what else you guys do? And they said, we're karaoke
Speaker 1: last night. They said they tore it up. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: we tore it up here. Yeah. I was like, everybody
Speaker 1: sings along with that song. That's the perfect karaoke song,
Speaker 1: you know, what man, I'm ashamed, but I'm not. I'm
Speaker 1: not like a really good music guy. But like, I've
Speaker 1: heard of that song, but I can't right now think,
Speaker 1: oh I've seen that, that's that one, that's the Queen. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm probably wrong, somebody proud of myself. I was probably
Speaker 1: way wrong, but I think that I'm I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: that's right. I've often had h right in if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: right in po Box one to I still don't have
Speaker 1: I don't have that Peo box set up. Gotta get
Speaker 1: that going. Um, how's everything else going, Johnnie? I mean
Speaker 1: you're traveling around a lot filming season eight of Meat
Speaker 1: Either TV, launching a pretty fantabulous cookbook that you were
Speaker 1: a primary part of, and a new company. What's just
Speaker 1: lay out there? Lay it out there? Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: you're hitting the nail on the head, and now I'm
Speaker 1: asked to look to the future and think of other
Speaker 1: big ideas that we can act upon. Ye. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I got some stuff up my sleeve. I don't know
Speaker 1: if I'm willing, I'm ready. Yeah, but there's some things
Speaker 1: thanks working on that are outside of what everybody's used
Speaker 1: to reading or listening to but yeah, man, exciting times
Speaker 1: over here, very much is very much content creators almost weekly. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: we're we're cranking out. You know, if you're listening to this,
Speaker 1: you're not going to the media dot com. Shame on you,
Speaker 1: your bastards. Uh, there's been a lot of good reading
Speaker 1: on There's Pat Durkin's article on Dirk deer p Dirk
Speaker 1: p oh you said, pe Dirk calling pete um But yeah,
Speaker 1: what what deer smell? That was good? Like article about
Speaker 1: uh killing or not to kill Marlon? Yeah. No, Pat's
Speaker 1: got two more pieces coming out of fact. One just
Speaker 1: went live today on how dear smell and how we
Speaker 1: try to fool them and then we probably never really
Speaker 1: fooled them. But he also had one on deer vision.
Speaker 1: You know, Mark Kenyans did a lot of stuff around
Speaker 1: the rud white Tail lockdown. You know, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: looking good over there. I think we're working on it.
Speaker 1: We'll get there, keeping it fresh, keeping it Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think we're keeping it real though as well. It's real
Speaker 1: hot tip offs. I can't believe how many people were like,
Speaker 1: you gotta do this with a hot tipoff? Are you
Speaker 1: gotta do that with a hot tip off. And I
Speaker 1: can't believe that Steve's always one of those hot tip offs.
Speaker 1: You're a hot tip officer, always way better Steve just
Speaker 1: he's got the gravy toss and he's got he knows
Speaker 1: he's the boss. That's why I's winning. Like he's got
Speaker 1: all the he's got all the cards, tacks in your
Speaker 1: in his face. Man. People always are like, dude, you're
Speaker 1: always taking a high tip. You know. I'm like you, guys,
Speaker 1: haven't gotta understand that this is my job and if
Speaker 1: my job requires a little bit of that, and the
Speaker 1: rest of my job is what it is, and I'm
Speaker 1: very happy and play along. I am exactly the same
Speaker 1: way man, and my former the job I had prior
Speaker 1: to this one, it was very much too identify folks
Speaker 1: like Steve and other people that are very influential and
Speaker 1: support them in their relationship with the Jettie. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't like I wasn't the guy doing all the I
Speaker 1: wasn't the ambassador. I was the guy supporting those bucks.
Speaker 1: Super fun to do. It's not always fun to be
Speaker 1: the guy in front. Sometimes it's nice to be exactly
Speaker 1: standing next to the guy. People. It's easy I think
Speaker 1: people do recognize that, but it's also easy to forget.
Speaker 1: Man that that the limelight. Uh it's not quite twenty
Speaker 1: four seven, but I think it's he says his name
Speaker 1: with the Internet. It's like he's getting to be that way.
Speaker 1: And um, it's a lot of pressure and you can't
Speaker 1: turn it off. You can't just choose to turn it off,
Speaker 1: especially when you're you know, when your life is wrapped
Speaker 1: up and you can't be like I just I'd like
Speaker 1: to get out of there until you drop, Mike drop,
Speaker 1: you know, that's what you need to turn it off.
Speaker 1: But you can all do that. Yeah, but I don't
Speaker 1: feel like Steve is doing that or how I'm doing that,
Speaker 1: or you're doing that anytime soon. Maybe eventually, But it's
Speaker 1: too easy to sit in the room and talk. Let's
Speaker 1: do what quick shot out of a canon hot tip
Speaker 1: off snow related hunting hot to snow related. This is
Speaker 1: like the maybe the new hot tips spontaneous hot tip
Speaker 1: off planning snow related. What the things you do in
Speaker 1: the snow? Was some snow last week in Michigan. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think what it would be a hot tip
Speaker 1: tip cold in the tree stand, you know, uh, it
Speaker 1: almost burned me. It didn't. But you know, if it's snowing,
Speaker 1: or if it is the snow is melting, be careful
Speaker 1: how long you wait to blood trail um because I
Speaker 1: did that and ended up waiting like a couple three
Speaker 1: hours just because we had some other stuff going on.
Speaker 1: It was cool. I didn't think that, you know, there's
Speaker 1: no real need to go blood show immediately. And then
Speaker 1: we started on the blood trail. And then because it
Speaker 1: had snowed a little bit more, but more it had
Speaker 1: been melting, that it was starting to get hard to
Speaker 1: follow that blood trail. So be aware, you know, be
Speaker 1: aware of that. Yeah, my only real hot tip around
Speaker 1: that is make sure everybody's you know, just doing all days. Sit,
Speaker 1: be limber, stand up, stretch your freaking shoulders, stretch, make
Speaker 1: sure you're moving. Don't be moving around too much that
Speaker 1: the deer might spot you. But every once, every couple
Speaker 1: of hours, stand up and stretch it out. Draw your
Speaker 1: bow maybe if you need to be careful not to
Speaker 1: dry fire the thing, but make sure when you stand
Speaker 1: up your muscles aren't so tall, you know, aren't so
Speaker 1: stiff that you can't draw your bow smoothly, because then
Speaker 1: you get around the tree. Oh man. When I was
Speaker 1: doing it, and I know it definitely could have cost me.
Speaker 1: But any deer that came through, if it wasn't well
Speaker 1: it was there was not the buck or whatever I
Speaker 1: was trying to shoot at, I would try to draw
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah. Yeah, that could be dangerous. And you
Speaker 1: definitely come and then you look back and there's you know,
Speaker 1: a big boy. But um, it's good to do because
Speaker 1: I just feel like that what you gain from doing
Speaker 1: that it almost outweighs like the risk you're taken because
Speaker 1: you do it. And also you realize like, oh I
Speaker 1: didn't see that limb there earlier, that I really can't
Speaker 1: take this shot, or or when can I Like, Okay,
Speaker 1: the deer's coming from he's coming in into the wind.
Speaker 1: I'm safe. He's coming right down this trail way, you know,
Speaker 1: So I draw here, Oh I draw right back into
Speaker 1: the camera guy, or I draw right back into a
Speaker 1: limb that's right at this angle. So if you do that,
Speaker 1: if you've I always you know, have my shooting lanes,
Speaker 1: and I always draw to each shooting lane, so I
Speaker 1: kind of have an idea of oh, here he comes,
Speaker 1: I'm drawn to the shooting lane and it becomes different.
Speaker 1: I can always move, but at least I know kind
Speaker 1: of like what that motion looks like. And if it's
Speaker 1: not banging my elbow and a freaking you know, on
Speaker 1: a hook or something and make a noise, that's my
Speaker 1: hot tip. That's good. It's a good hot tip. Man.
Speaker 1: I was doing some of that last week in the cold. Um.
Speaker 1: I was doing air squats. I think I call him
Speaker 1: air squads. Is an air squat just doing a squad
Speaker 1: with no weight? Yeah, yeah, okay, so I was doing
Speaker 1: the sets of thirty. I felt like that would really
Speaker 1: bump up my cored tampa plus your core temps going. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so if you're sitting there, you can get I would
Speaker 1: get to the point where I'd be like, okay, it's
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock, it's snow in a rain or it's getting
Speaker 1: super cold, and get my phone out kind of like
Speaker 1: get myself, you know, have some soup, do a little
Speaker 1: like one hour phone session so I can my mind
Speaker 1: can settle and um get a little stimulation. And then
Speaker 1: you know, even after an hour an hour and a half,
Speaker 1: you stand back up and you're like you're stiff. And
Speaker 1: I had that happened in Illinois, like three or four
Speaker 1: years ago. I was shooting one of those. Uh so
Speaker 1: I shooting like the bow tech maybe insanity as a
Speaker 1: super harsh turnover. The draw cycles were rough, and I
Speaker 1: had a a buck come down the strange to my right,
Speaker 1: and I had to turn my entire body because I
Speaker 1: was kind of the trees day was facing off to
Speaker 1: the left, turn my entire body and draw across my body.
Speaker 1: And I was so stiff I could barely do it.
Speaker 1: And I and I there was one I got about
Speaker 1: half half draw and had let down and then shift
Speaker 1: my body so I could get a solid drawn. I'm
Speaker 1: doing all that other there's a buck of fifty yards
Speaker 1: rather than just being a folds drawn and killing the thing.
Speaker 1: So hot tips. Yeah, there's no one here that can
Speaker 1: choose the winner. Spontaneous hot tips right into the right
Speaker 1: in tell us the winner, I'll choose. You think that
Speaker 1: was a pretty good one. I'm pretty confident it was
Speaker 1: a little bit more cold related. Yeah, but you know
Speaker 1: you've been living in Texas last few years. I'll give
Speaker 1: you a path. Yeah. Yeah, Actually I could do like
Speaker 1: rattlesnake related hot tips. I'd have none for that. Um, okay,
Speaker 1: here's what we're gonna do. Ethics. Hunting ethics, I think um.
Speaker 1: On this podcast in particular and also in the media podcast,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of conversation around hunting ethics and generally
Speaker 1: situational hunting ethics, like what happens in this situation? What
Speaker 1: do I do? And so I, uh, if days ago
Speaker 1: asked for folks on the Instagram to submit some stuff,
Speaker 1: So we go over to Yanni, are you prepared to
Speaker 1: go over some ethical quandaries? I am. I'm actually googling
Speaker 1: ethics definition so that we can. I think that's a
Speaker 1: good yes, that's a good starting point, a baseline of
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. What do you got? Two definitions?
Speaker 1: Moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting
Speaker 1: of an activity, and to be the branch of knowledge
Speaker 1: the deals with moral principles. I like that moral principles
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. And I guess hunting be being
Speaker 1: the killing of another living thing. It's pretty fraught with
Speaker 1: moral an ethical quadries and principles both. So this will
Speaker 1: be a good conversation. Um, We've got a lot of them,
Speaker 1: so we'll see how many we can get through. But
Speaker 1: I will start by saying thanks to everybody that that
Speaker 1: wrote in and and uh, I'd like to lead with
Speaker 1: the light one if you don't mind the honnie please. Uh.
Speaker 1: This came from Calm Pete. He says, is it okay
Speaker 1: to say hunting is fun anymore? What is your thoughts
Speaker 1: um ethically speaking? For sure? I don't really know if
Speaker 1: that's even an ethics or moral question, but I think
Speaker 1: it is. I think the way you pose it is
Speaker 1: not necessarily an ethical question, but I think ethically it's
Speaker 1: presenting yourself as an ethical hunter. How much, how much joy,
Speaker 1: how much fun can you display? That's what he's probably getting.
Speaker 1: Is it ethical from a hunting stampoint you display how
Speaker 1: much fun you're having when you're putting yourself out there
Speaker 1: to the public. Well, it's good a point out too
Speaker 1: before we get into that. Back to morals and ethics
Speaker 1: is that they're always personal, of course, right you know,
Speaker 1: like your community, your family, your community sorts sort of
Speaker 1: gives you the outline of what they should probably be.
Speaker 1: You in the end have to decide what they're going
Speaker 1: to be, and they're always determined by your experiences, your perspectives,
Speaker 1: your value systems. Like you said that are either instilled
Speaker 1: in you or vices you developed through you know, your life,
Speaker 1: life experience experiences. So I think this question is more
Speaker 1: of a little bit more about how like you know
Speaker 1: someone else is going to judge you. Yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: But I think in general there's some ethics and hunting
Speaker 1: around how you display it just because of the situation
Speaker 1: where you know. But uh, for me personally, I definitely
Speaker 1: talk about hunting and use the word fun death on everything,
Speaker 1: almost everything about it. The killing itself is not always
Speaker 1: fun um. Sometimes it can feel good, sometimes it can
Speaker 1: feel bad. But for the most part, Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it's totally okay to do that as But again that's
Speaker 1: like he that's way too simple of an answer, because
Speaker 1: you can go nuts with fun and turn it into
Speaker 1: like a circus. And I don't think that's really cool
Speaker 1: to apply that to the hunting. Well, I think it's
Speaker 1: it's it's some Yeah. Again, it gets back to the
Speaker 1: person by person. Think, if you know that you're a
Speaker 1: very emotional person by nature, hunting is going to bring
Speaker 1: that out of your times too, because you've just done
Speaker 1: you know, if you if you just talk about specifically
Speaker 1: about the killing of the thing, is that fun or not.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably what old Colum Pete's getting that too.
Speaker 1: Is it ethically? Am I like, is my if I
Speaker 1: moral principle that is that I have fun while killing
Speaker 1: an animal? Or killing an animal is fun to me?
Speaker 1: Is that morally sound like to be able to say that?
Speaker 1: You know? And I would say, like, don't The killing
Speaker 1: of the animal should be part of the process, but
Speaker 1: maybe not the fun part. I mean, it can be exhilarating,
Speaker 1: it could be a lot of things, but I don't
Speaker 1: know that fun. Maybe we should define fun, but I
Speaker 1: don't know that fun is the way. So is it?
Speaker 1: You know? Can we say to the question that can
Speaker 1: we say, honey, is fun? Absolutely? We should say it's
Speaker 1: fun because it is. If it's not fun, you're just
Speaker 1: you're probably a weirdo. Um, we should say it's fun. Now,
Speaker 1: how we display that fun? Isn't this another another question?
Speaker 1: I think? Morally? Um, I think you should. You should
Speaker 1: display your emotions how they come. You shouldn't be fake
Speaker 1: about how you display it. But you should also think
Speaker 1: about when there's other people around you that that have
Speaker 1: never experienced that, how did you get that across them
Speaker 1: in a way that makes sense, and I think Steve
Speaker 1: Alis says, you know, I like meat and I like
Speaker 1: to have fun, and if hunting, if I lost either
Speaker 1: of those two things, I wouldn't do it. I can
Speaker 1: agree with that, But so we think it's okay to
Speaker 1: say it's fun. You agree with that I do. You
Speaker 1: can't take your tank, can't take it too seriously, take
Speaker 1: it too seriously, we say, um, let's get to a
Speaker 1: little bit longer one. Let's see this came from coyote Charlie.
Speaker 1: He says, I was wondering about fenced hunting. From what
Speaker 1: I know, you're you meaning me, are pretty familiar with Texas,
Speaker 1: so you might have some thoughts on this. And you've
Speaker 1: hunting Texas, but not have you ever hunting high fence? Okay,
Speaker 1: I've hunting dogs that were flying across high fence range,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't count. That counts I I was in there.
Speaker 1: We are not hunting that wild stuff high fence hunter. Uh,
Speaker 1: you might have some thoughts. I'm pretty against fenced hunting.
Speaker 1: And the raising of bucks is livestock with unrealistic, freakish anilers.
Speaker 1: So that's so that's defines that defines wrong. But as
Speaker 1: far as fence hunting in general, what is your what
Speaker 1: do you think about the space for hunting? Is it
Speaker 1: still fence hunting if it's five thousand acres obviously three
Speaker 1: to five hundred acres would be a huge place in
Speaker 1: some areas, but some places not. What do you think
Speaker 1: about when does it become fair chase? And what's your
Speaker 1: opinion about the size of the acreage high fence ranch?
Speaker 1: What do you think about that? Is there a is
Speaker 1: there a I guess this question is ethically in the
Speaker 1: in the application of fair chase. Is there a point
Speaker 1: in which it becomes fair chase based on the amount
Speaker 1: of acres that is fenced? Right? And uh man, it's
Speaker 1: gonna vary so much from situation to situation. And again,
Speaker 1: I think you're just gonna have to make your own
Speaker 1: call while you're there, because it doesn't matter if it's
Speaker 1: five acres or five thousand acres. If you've cornered the
Speaker 1: animal against the fence, it's not fair chase. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: I think like you said, it's I think it's based
Speaker 1: on the animal you're chasing and the south. So let's
Speaker 1: say like an average range of a white tailed deer
Speaker 1: is a square mile, Is it then ethical to say,
Speaker 1: if the fence covers square mile, then that white tail
Speaker 1: on average has enough room to roam that he could
Speaker 1: be naturally have patterns and he would be not restricted
Speaker 1: by fences. Do you feel like that's true? He's still
Speaker 1: restricted though, yep? What about two miles? Now twice is
Speaker 1: average range still restricting? What about three miles? I don't
Speaker 1: know what the cutoff is gonna be because I guess
Speaker 1: if you go to the extreme and let's just say, well,
Speaker 1: let's just say we put a fence around lower which
Speaker 1: in the way you kind of have because we have
Speaker 1: fences on borders that you know, it's sometimes they're not
Speaker 1: made for wildlife to pass through. And then on either
Speaker 1: coast you have these things called oceans, which prevent most
Speaker 1: animals from moving large bodies of salty water. So, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, we have some sort of enclosure. We do,
Speaker 1: but obviously it's all fair. Chase. Yes, I so I
Speaker 1: hunted in Texas on a high fence ranch some years ago.
Speaker 1: He I was working for Patian Sunny magazine and a
Speaker 1: certain company called me up and said, hey, we'd like
Speaker 1: to do this hunt. Film it for television show. And
Speaker 1: I said, well, I don't do high fence, so I'd
Speaker 1: rather not go. They said, hey, we would love to
Speaker 1: you to come down, experience in since you've never done it,
Speaker 1: and then write about your experience as to whether it's
Speaker 1: fair chase or not. This this I remember, this particular
Speaker 1: place is about a little bit over five thousand acres.
Speaker 1: It had once been they had bought, they had once
Speaker 1: bred deer there, but it had been years since they
Speaker 1: had actually bred any deer there. So there were breed
Speaker 1: or deer in the fence, but they had not been
Speaker 1: actively you know, call it captured and bread at any point.
Speaker 1: So there they're they posited to me like, hey, you
Speaker 1: know after the hunt was over, which it was not
Speaker 1: fair chase. I mean, we did a lot of things
Speaker 1: that we're you know, like drive drive past a year
Speaker 1: that was bedded, get out, slammed the door, it would run,
Speaker 1: and then we would chase it and kill it, you
Speaker 1: know like that that's what they'd like to do. Okay,
Speaker 1: so that it's not fair chase. But but they would say, hey,
Speaker 1: look you got after that deer. You saw that deer,
Speaker 1: We went after it, tried to kill it, it got away.
Speaker 1: Mm hm. Fair chase. That's what they kept saying to me,
Speaker 1: if you pursue a deer and it can get away
Speaker 1: from you, or you can hunt it for multiple days
Speaker 1: and not kill it, fair enough for the animal, the
Speaker 1: fair chase, if you can get away from you effectively,
Speaker 1: it's fair. What do you got, Johnny? That sounds fair? Um?
Speaker 1: Does sound fair? Yeah? I guess as long as you
Speaker 1: like never use the fence to your advantage. Maybe that's
Speaker 1: a caveat I throw in there. You wanted to call
Speaker 1: it fair chase. Yeah, And I think the defense is
Speaker 1: whether you use defence or not, you're still an advantage.
Speaker 1: Whether you run them up against defense or not defence,
Speaker 1: Still it gives you an advantage of somebody that's unting,
Speaker 1: whether there is no offense. So do we do? What
Speaker 1: do we say? What are we gonna say? What's the
Speaker 1: what's the final verdict? Is there an acreage that is
Speaker 1: significant enough that you would say it's fair chase? I would?
Speaker 1: I would have to just I guess wonder, like, what's
Speaker 1: what significance is defense? Then? For where you're at, like
Speaker 1: there's just a bunch of exotics in there, is that
Speaker 1: the reason for the offense? Are you trying to keep
Speaker 1: something inside there that you don't want to get out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of places in the world
Speaker 1: where they're like, you know, Africa's being one. We put
Speaker 1: up senses to keep poachers out, right, you know, not
Speaker 1: to keep the animals in, and there's not you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people in texts tell the same thing
Speaker 1: we but even for me, like if you take it
Speaker 1: back to our model wildlife conservation, you know, animals are
Speaker 1: held in trust by the states and belong to everyone.
Speaker 1: So as soon as you put up a fence, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. They don't belong to everyone. They don't belong
Speaker 1: to everyone. So it just has a principle to me,
Speaker 1: the fence is a problem. Now when it gets into
Speaker 1: like the fencing exists and you can't do anything about it.
Speaker 1: Is there some fair chase that could be had inside
Speaker 1: of that fence, I would say, principally maybe. But the
Speaker 1: hunter then can't say, oh, when given the option I
Speaker 1: take the high offense and have any scruples. You gotta
Speaker 1: you gotta not, you gotta avoid that at all costs.
Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, I mean, can you go to
Speaker 1: a ranch like that and get real world hunting scenarios
Speaker 1: where you're gonna get blown out and be frust aided
Speaker 1: and learn hunting skills by going there and chasing these animals,
Speaker 1: for sure. But like you're saying, it always gives you
Speaker 1: an advantage. Somewhat slight, but it always gives you. There's
Speaker 1: really nothing you can do about it, all right, Well,
Speaker 1: I I can't decide on the size, don't have high fence.
Speaker 1: Just don't do it. Though if you do it, you're
Speaker 1: probably you can make up a story about it being
Speaker 1: fair chase, but you're they're always going to be an
Speaker 1: argument against that. You're never gonna have a pure you know,
Speaker 1: we talk about purity scale. You're never gonna You're never
Speaker 1: gonna have a high score. Those defense involved just not.
Speaker 1: You may be able to talk yourself into fair chase,
Speaker 1: but it's really at the end of the day, it's
Speaker 1: not as pure as it could be, no matter how
Speaker 1: big defenses. Here's another one, this what's called This is
Speaker 1: from Crozy Talk. He said, I have a question, thank you.
Speaker 1: Is it ft coal to take a tree stand that
Speaker 1: is left on public land? In Minnesota it is illegal
Speaker 1: to leave a stand on public land and most of
Speaker 1: the state. I'm interested in hearing your opinion on tree
Speaker 1: stands or trail cameras left on public lands. What do
Speaker 1: you think, Janny, I think yes, if you've watched that
Speaker 1: stand and it's past the uh a lot of time
Speaker 1: that it's allowed to be there, and if it's got
Speaker 1: the dude's name number on it, he's probably calm before
Speaker 1: you walk out of the woods with it. But uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: if someone's being lazy doesn't want to pack their stand
Speaker 1: back out of the woods like they're supposed to, I
Speaker 1: don't have anything for any problem with it. So you're
Speaker 1: now you feel like you're policing, policing the public land.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't consider it be like like you're doing any
Speaker 1: sort of policing. Um, I mean, I guess it's that's
Speaker 1: like that's his motivation. I would say, you don't need
Speaker 1: to go police somebody. But if you're like, I'll use
Speaker 1: that stands somewhere and I'll pack it in and out
Speaker 1: of the woods. I'll clean up the woods because it
Speaker 1: is nice not to have woods full of tree stands. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like that's what's happening on a lot of private property
Speaker 1: across the Midwest. Fro have hunted deer and it gets
Speaker 1: a little like just yeah, it kills the zen feeling
Speaker 1: of just walking through the woods. And just like every
Speaker 1: corner of every ladder intersection, Yeah, ladders sticking everywhere. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then the ladders that are rotting in and falling
Speaker 1: over just there in the graveyard and there's a new
Speaker 1: ladder just standing where it used to stand. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but now experience now, guys, especially like you said, on
Speaker 1: private land. Now, dudes, are you know hanging three stands
Speaker 1: for wind direction? Like we got a southeast wind, I
Speaker 1: gotta sit here and within you know, a quarter square
Speaker 1: mile or within a small air you've got three or
Speaker 1: four stands hanging, just depending on where the winds blown.
Speaker 1: And if you do that four or five times over,
Speaker 1: then you've got t stands on however big a property
Speaker 1: you got. But when it comes to public land, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think obviously it depends on what the rules are.
Speaker 1: But in the case of Minnesota, where this guy saying
Speaker 1: it's illegal to leave him up or a certain amount
Speaker 1: of time, I mean I tend to be a you know,
Speaker 1: a bit of a pacifist where this is concerned. I'd
Speaker 1: probably leave it alone unless I felt it was really
Speaker 1: hindering my or anyone else's hunting, probably leave it alone. Um,
Speaker 1: But if I felt it was kind of egregious where
Speaker 1: I was, or um, you know, it was then a
Speaker 1: hunting spot that I valued and I knew nobody came
Speaker 1: back to get it, I'd probably remove it. But I
Speaker 1: wouldn't just at a principal walk over and grab one
Speaker 1: that I didn't think had a negative effect on me specifically,
Speaker 1: Would you take it just because you needed to stand
Speaker 1: and you're like, that's clearly that one's been there long enough,
Speaker 1: I'll take it. Yeah, I don't know. I mean once
Speaker 1: you if if if the rule says you can't leave
Speaker 1: it there, and it's I think the person that hangs
Speaker 1: a stand, they come If you hang a stand and
Speaker 1: leave it up there for three weeks and know that's
Speaker 1: against the rules, and you come back and it's gone,
Speaker 1: you can't bitch. Oh hell no, you're forfeiting forefeiting your stand,
Speaker 1: So whatever happens to it, you can't bitch. So I
Speaker 1: would say, ethically, this guy's probably as long as he's
Speaker 1: as long as he's thought about it and constructively thought,
Speaker 1: hey is this. Let me give this a little bit
Speaker 1: of time, and then I'm taking it down. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: didn't say like, oh man, I forgot my stand, pull
Speaker 1: this one down and hanging up somewhere else, or you're
Speaker 1: not you're not advocating, and go steal stand. There'll be
Speaker 1: a dick, is what I guess what I'll say, Um,
Speaker 1: do it for a good reason and feel but feel
Speaker 1: free to do it if somebody leaves it up there
Speaker 1: too long. That's right land On now agreed, Agreed, So
Speaker 1: it's ethically okay. I think it's athlete. I think it's
Speaker 1: ethinitely okay. I don't I don't know. Like I said,
Speaker 1: I'm more passive on this, so I don't know um
Speaker 1: what I would do, but I would probably avoid taking
Speaker 1: it unless I felt like I had to take it.
Speaker 1: That's what I feel. Next one came from hard t N.
Speaker 1: Why are some bow hunters okay with just slapping a
Speaker 1: bow together without testing their equipment? Then when they make
Speaker 1: bad shots with their gear isn't effective, They don't try
Speaker 1: to improve themselves or they're gear to ensure that they
Speaker 1: are bow hunting as ethically as possible. The question is
Speaker 1: why are they okay with that? Well? I think the
Speaker 1: question is The question ends up being if are you
Speaker 1: an unethical hunter? If you are not tending to your
Speaker 1: gear properly. When why are you? Okay? And then and
Speaker 1: I know, like you got the if you both hun
Speaker 1: You know, people that our weekend warriors that aren't spending
Speaker 1: the time with their equipment that they need to. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're lazy, doesn't mean they're assholes. It just
Speaker 1: means maybe they'll have enough time and they still want
Speaker 1: to go hunting. But does that make you an unethical hunter? See?
Speaker 1: I feel like there is a little bit of laziness
Speaker 1: involved there. Yep. Well, there may be like a prioritization issue,
Speaker 1: like what are you prioritizing over that? Because when you're
Speaker 1: going out, if you don't have time to practice, you
Speaker 1: don't have time to hunt. My opinion, that's what I
Speaker 1: would say. You agree with that, Yeah, And obviously it's
Speaker 1: it's a personal decision. You know you can do that.
Speaker 1: And I guess if you value just being able to
Speaker 1: go out there and hunting fling arrows over take that
Speaker 1: time to practice so that you're not just flinging arrows. Um,
Speaker 1: that's your decision. We can't tell you this. I don't
Speaker 1: think we can. I can tell tell you that it's
Speaker 1: ethically wrong, but is it ethic? Well, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's to what level you want to apply those ethics right, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna apply my ethics to them. What I
Speaker 1: like to do is practice a whole bunch and be
Speaker 1: feeling like, um, you know, doing the best job that
Speaker 1: I can. You know, when I'm gonna shoot at an animal,
Speaker 1: Is that your threshold for being an ethical bow hunter,
Speaker 1: having like done your best to make a good shot? Yeah,
Speaker 1: big part of it. So then if you apply She's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's the if. That's what an ethical bow hunter is.
Speaker 1: Somebody who has done their to the best of their efforts,
Speaker 1: trained and practice and tune their equipment to make sure
Speaker 1: that they can make the shot when it present itself.
Speaker 1: You know, if you screw it up in the moment,
Speaker 1: you screw up in the moment. I mean, that's happened
Speaker 1: to everybody in their hunting lives. It just happens. But
Speaker 1: for me to be an ethical bow hunter, you have
Speaker 1: to be in you have to be in the pursuit
Speaker 1: of getting better all the time. To be an ethical
Speaker 1: bow howner, You're you're gonna start out really terrible. You
Speaker 1: might be really terrible for quite some time. But you
Speaker 1: you can't be lazy enough or apathetic enough to not
Speaker 1: be getting better, like just to pick your bow up
Speaker 1: once a year, shoot at the twenty yards, hit two
Speaker 1: three arrows near the bull's eye, and go out hunt,
Speaker 1: because you're not improving it by doing that. But you
Speaker 1: have to be to be an ethical hunter, always getting better,
Speaker 1: always learning more, always like you have to, I think,
Speaker 1: because if you don't, you're talking about specifically with shooting
Speaker 1: your bowl, or what if you just spend all that
Speaker 1: time just learning to be a better tracker and a
Speaker 1: better guy picking out better stand locations so that you
Speaker 1: get closer, more closer shots. That's a good point. But
Speaker 1: when's have become about the one thing I guess about
Speaker 1: slapping bows together? Yeah, let's you get back to just
Speaker 1: slapping a boat together. Because if your boat, if you're site,
Speaker 1: if you're not sited in, if if you're if your
Speaker 1: draw length isn't right, if your peep sites you know,
Speaker 1: not set right. Yeah, and this could apply to muzzle loaders, rifles, anything. Yeah, Um,
Speaker 1: but I think it's probably more prevalent in archery because
Speaker 1: there is such a wide gap between buying a bow
Speaker 1: and knowing what to do with it, I believe. And
Speaker 1: there's also a big, big, old fat gap between going
Speaker 1: and buying a bow at a bowshop and buying it
Speaker 1: from somebody that's knowledgeable and that can point in the
Speaker 1: right direction. In fact, I have had a buddy that
Speaker 1: came to Bearcamp with us that had a thumb release
Speaker 1: and was shooting it the wrong way. He was shooting
Speaker 1: it with his knuckles on his cheek as opposed to
Speaker 1: like this. He had gone to bowshop, somebody sold him
Speaker 1: that and told him to do it m so, and
Speaker 1: he put he put a photo on Instagram and he's
Speaker 1: got a lot of followers and people just blew him
Speaker 1: up for it. His draw length was an inch too short,
Speaker 1: he has release turned the wrong way, and he went
Speaker 1: to a proa shot yeah in Texas, and that's what
Speaker 1: he got. And so I think there's like a gap
Speaker 1: there too. So you like trust someone to tell you
Speaker 1: to do it the right way, you know. So what's
Speaker 1: your what's your responsibility in the end, Johnny, what's your
Speaker 1: responsibility as to the to the working nature of your equipment? Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's a You're gonna have to decide just
Speaker 1: what I mean, maybe yeah, maybe, always continuing to get better.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's a good way to put it. But do
Speaker 1: you guys to decide what where you're like, at what
Speaker 1: level you're ethically comfortable at that moment? And I think
Speaker 1: that maybe it speaks to being ethical when there are
Speaker 1: times when you say, you know what, I haven't shot enough,
Speaker 1: one of my equipment is not dialed in enough. Instead
Speaker 1: of going honey, I should go do that. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: done that a lot of the tin a hunter just
Speaker 1: means having that conversation with yourself. Have you ever done that,
Speaker 1: Like got to a trip and like, I gotta take
Speaker 1: a day off hunting so I can get my stuff
Speaker 1: dialed um of definitely. We did that in Michigan this
Speaker 1: last time. We didn't hunt like our first morning in
Speaker 1: camp because we knew we just had to, you know,
Speaker 1: shoot bowls a little bit and get dialed in. You
Speaker 1: know that's so important when you travel to hunt because
Speaker 1: air pressure is different, you're different altitude and humidity, your
Speaker 1: boat is traveled. You gotta shoot man, Yeah you do. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I've I've done that. I do that a lot. When
Speaker 1: you get into camp and you have either an outfit
Speaker 1: or your buddies, like, let's go, let's go, let's go
Speaker 1: and get it treated like chill, like um and or
Speaker 1: like you said. You can then put yourself in a
Speaker 1: scenario where you only have like twenty yards shots you know,
Speaker 1: where you know very high probability you can make that shot.
Speaker 1: You don't set yourself on a field edge where a
Speaker 1: deer can walk hunter yards eight yards, fifty yards. Set
Speaker 1: yourself when get yourself in a thick spot in between
Speaker 1: with a lot of cover where deer coming in tight
Speaker 1: on you and stuff like that. You can you can
Speaker 1: do that to mitigate it. But that that again is
Speaker 1: just being aware that maybe your equipment is more needed
Speaker 1: it needs to be and setting yourself up for success
Speaker 1: rather than just climbing in the same old tree with
Speaker 1: the same old bow that you shot once in September.
Speaker 1: Now it's November. Yeah, And I don't want to sing
Speaker 1: about bowl hunters for feeling like they do that anymore.
Speaker 1: You know, as a guide man, I saw it across
Speaker 1: the board. Dudes coming in, you pick up their rifle
Speaker 1: and look through it, and their cross hairs look like
Speaker 1: an X. Like really, have you looked through your and
Speaker 1: you look through your sculp any time in the last
Speaker 1: I don't know decade, like you know, obviously they didn't
Speaker 1: prepare themselves. Yeah, no, I think that's in. I have
Speaker 1: some first world problems. I showed you guys to shooting
Speaker 1: the show. The media shows like you get into this
Speaker 1: like travel, travel, travel, travel, always using different weapons, and
Speaker 1: you're like, I got three days before my trip and
Speaker 1: my wife needs me to do this, this and this
Speaker 1: I got. I'm really busy at work. Should I didn't
Speaker 1: make it to the range, I'm gonna go anyway. I'll
Speaker 1: take this rifle and when I get there, I'll shoot
Speaker 1: it in. Then when you get there, like, well, we
Speaker 1: don't really have a range for you. Um, just shoot
Speaker 1: once over that rock and you shoot. You're like, I
Speaker 1: think I hit it. That's good. Then you go out
Speaker 1: and hunt with the rifle you're not sure about. Next thing,
Speaker 1: you know, you crack one in the freaking ear or
Speaker 1: shoot its leg off, and then looking back you're like, WHOA,
Speaker 1: that's my fault. M M, that is my fault. That's
Speaker 1: the worst case scenario. Or you your buddies like, I'll
Speaker 1: bring it rifle for you, don't worry. I shot it in.
Speaker 1: I sighted in for you. And you get there and
Speaker 1: they hand it to you and you go hunt, and
Speaker 1: you know, shoot one in the ass and wonder why.
Speaker 1: So same with rifles. I mean that's that probably happens more.
Speaker 1: Nobody's just like hand you a bell and says, hey, here, here,
Speaker 1: shoot my bell. Usually, so it can't happen more with rifles,
Speaker 1: probably them than archery tackle. Yeah, definitely. I've been the
Speaker 1: one that handed him over, and I've been the one
Speaker 1: that has taken him. And I always anytime, even though
Speaker 1: I know that I took that gun to the range
Speaker 1: and shot a nice group with it, I always tell him, like,
Speaker 1: you should go shoot it, Yeah you could, just as
Speaker 1: much for the ethics as uh. I just want to know, yeah,
Speaker 1: that I'm gonna kill something confidence man. Yeah, Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's that's where like aesthex and hunting gets a little
Speaker 1: bit shady, because you know, there there is everything. Everybody's
Speaker 1: different and you apply to different things in different situations.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, like your ability to kill
Speaker 1: the thing is part of your ethical responsibility. I think
Speaker 1: I think you can't disconnect it to at the very least,
Speaker 1: And so you know, you could be a you can
Speaker 1: prepare and prepare and prepare and then always lose it
Speaker 1: in the moment, you know, But I think that's that's okay.
Speaker 1: But you can. But if you don't prepare, then you can't.
Speaker 1: You can't call yourself enough ethical hunter if you don't
Speaker 1: care enough to get prepared. No, okay, this next one,
Speaker 1: Lance b r He says, here's one for you. We
Speaker 1: live in Saskatchewan, Canada. A friend of mine had been
Speaker 1: hunting a property owned by his dad purely for hunting purposes.
Speaker 1: So the dad owned this property purely for hunting purposes.
Speaker 1: We've harvested elkin moves from the same area and we
Speaker 1: always have a great time white tail hunting there, and
Speaker 1: past years we've all hunted it together, including his dad
Speaker 1: and the property owner. We've had a great time. So
Speaker 1: this year I invested a ton of time weekends, trout
Speaker 1: cams stands to help get ready for a great white
Speaker 1: tail week in November to try and target some of
Speaker 1: the mature bucks we've been seeing. Just yesterday, eight days
Speaker 1: before general season, he tells me he would prefer to
Speaker 1: hunt it only with his dad to make sure they
Speaker 1: get the big bucks for themselves. I'm left with a
Speaker 1: week off from work and nowhere to go. That's cold, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what the hell do I do? He also says the
Speaker 1: ethics question. He also says, I don't want to be
Speaker 1: a slime ball, but I kind of feel like I
Speaker 1: got screwed over. They're a great family and good friends,
Speaker 1: but I'm a little confused as to why it took
Speaker 1: them so long to let me know any thoughts or
Speaker 1: advice or how to handle this situation. I think this
Speaker 1: will probably go back to ethically, in the situation of
Speaker 1: his friend and the dad, how do you handle that
Speaker 1: situation if you have, like and I've been in this
Speaker 1: situation before where I had a really good friend who
Speaker 1: had a lease. I wasn't on the lease or paying
Speaker 1: for it, but he always let me go. And then
Speaker 1: I always knew. I always knew that because I didn't pay,
Speaker 1: at any time he'd be like, hey, man, looked up,
Speaker 1: can't go. So I didn't have any expectation, even though
Speaker 1: I helped him hanging tree stands and hunted there a
Speaker 1: lot and killed deer there, that at any point in
Speaker 1: time that it was there prerogative to tell me stay home, homie.
Speaker 1: So I think the question of the ethical question here
Speaker 1: is if you're the friend and the dad, how do
Speaker 1: you manage that, like, how do you, like, how should
Speaker 1: the friend and the dad be acting? Yeah, you gotta go,
Speaker 1: you got a guy, you gotta buddy. It's been doing
Speaker 1: it much of work for you. They've been cranking work
Speaker 1: for it. And you've expressed to him that that you
Speaker 1: can hunt this week and thanks for all your work,
Speaker 1: and that's you've paying your dues enough to hunt, and
Speaker 1: then on the back end to side like, ah, rather
Speaker 1: just be the two of us? Yeah, I think you're
Speaker 1: being a little greedy and uh, a little bit of
Speaker 1: a yeah, you think of all kinds of bad names,
Speaker 1: a little bit of a dick, yeah, but that, but
Speaker 1: I think overall, the question then becomes like, how do
Speaker 1: you handle that relationship as the person who's doing the
Speaker 1: work but not guaranteed a spot and the person who has.
Speaker 1: I mean, it depends on how well he knows that family,
Speaker 1: But I mean, if I was in his shoes, I'd
Speaker 1: have a real serious sit down with them and be like, look, man,
Speaker 1: I feel like I got kind of burned on this
Speaker 1: thing and putting a lot of effort into it. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I mean, I understands your property,
Speaker 1: but you know, we kind of hunt hand this understanding,
Speaker 1: and you know, let's let them react to you bringing
Speaker 1: that up and and hopefully if your guys are good
Speaker 1: friends and you can put it on the table and
Speaker 1: discuss it and come up with a solution. But don't
Speaker 1: be a dick. That's kind of like you could lose
Speaker 1: a friendship over doing something. Have you ever had like
Speaker 1: I had a cousin growing up that we we had
Speaker 1: were very contentious over hunting spots, and like he was
Speaker 1: always very jealous and we always and I know a
Speaker 1: lot of people have lost friends over hunting spots and
Speaker 1: lost friends over like permissions, and like people get weird,
Speaker 1: especially in the white tailed world where you like we're
Speaker 1: managing for bucks and somebody shoots the wrong one, or
Speaker 1: you ever lost a friend over something like that and
Speaker 1: they've gotten a big gotten a big uh. No. Never,
Speaker 1: I haven't, no, because we hunted like this pretty much
Speaker 1: the same private land growing up for deer, and that
Speaker 1: never came up. And then when I moved out West,
Speaker 1: I started hunting mostly public land, and ah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: never really uh abused spots that I was taken to,
Speaker 1: I guess, and it never came up. It came up
Speaker 1: for me when I was a younger kid, but then
Speaker 1: once I got older, you just picked people to hunt
Speaker 1: with and pick landers and spots where you don't think
Speaker 1: you're gonna get into that. But I know, Mark Kenyon,
Speaker 1: it wasn't probably wasn't punitive or you know, the guy
Speaker 1: wasn't being a dick, but had an agreement with the
Speaker 1: landowner and drove all the way out I think it
Speaker 1: was Nebraska or somewhere and got there and guy was like,
Speaker 1: it's not gonna work. Somebody else's on this. And then
Speaker 1: I can said, you can't get mad expect Well, no
Speaker 1: you can't. His prerogative. But if it's a friend of yours, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been investing all kinds of time and money. Yeah, man, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're being a dick. Don't be a dick. That's a
Speaker 1: T shirt. It was a T shirt, Johnnie. Yeah, be nice,
Speaker 1: be real nice. Yeah. I feel terrible for you to
Speaker 1: start putting that on T shirts. People should just know that.
Speaker 1: Parents tell your kids, don't be nice. Be nice. Be
Speaker 1: nice to our kids daily, Be nice to each other,
Speaker 1: every maybe next to everybody. Whatever. Yeah, I don't. I
Speaker 1: learned from another a good friend of ours. Um Carmen.
Speaker 1: I heard her tell her kids when they are being
Speaker 1: little ships and I forget what sort of how the
Speaker 1: outlash is happening, but somebody wore they were not being
Speaker 1: nice some way. She said, look, I know that you
Speaker 1: may be tired, you may be hungry, we may have
Speaker 1: a dirty diaper, whatever it might be. But the one
Speaker 1: thing that we are not allowed to do is be nasty.
Speaker 1: We're just kind of like saying be nice, and uh,
Speaker 1: I really like that, and and it worked. It seemed
Speaker 1: to like make her kids kind of stop and be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're right. I'd like to drop that all my kids
Speaker 1: a lot of times, to be like, look, man, I
Speaker 1: know something's got you all fired up, but that does
Speaker 1: not allow you to react in the way you're reacting
Speaker 1: to the problem. Right now, you can still have a
Speaker 1: really bad day and just sort of like like grace
Speaker 1: is like something that's still I think above them. And
Speaker 1: I haven't really introduced the idea of grace, which I'm
Speaker 1: gonna hammer on him later in a lot, but right now,
Speaker 1: it's just like be nice. Yeah, I mean, I might
Speaker 1: be Even my two year old like we He learned
Speaker 1: time out pretty quickly when he was like and now
Speaker 1: he puts himself in time out, really yeah, walks over
Speaker 1: and sits down and puts himself in time out because
Speaker 1: you know, like he like self regulates himself. He's like,
Speaker 1: I've been being a dick. He'll do something and I'll
Speaker 1: be like James and He'll just like around and walk
Speaker 1: over and sit down because I and he has like
Speaker 1: this weird awareness of of you know, he knows at
Speaker 1: least he knows that his mother and I are like
Speaker 1: the judges now of because he just doesn't have as
Speaker 1: much awareness to know, but he knows. He has enough
Speaker 1: awareness to realize that, like when we're upset, something's gone
Speaker 1: wrong here and we all need to shape it up
Speaker 1: and be nicer. And so he always like he'll get
Speaker 1: carried away emotionally as a two year old always does,
Speaker 1: and like maybe swing and hit somebody and immediately go
Speaker 1: put himself in time out, and I'll stand him up,
Speaker 1: and I'll be like hug and kiss, and they'll hug
Speaker 1: and kiss and then go and give everybody like almost
Speaker 1: immediately it understands like, oh crap, So I hope that
Speaker 1: could use. I hope we don't lose that along the way.
Speaker 1: But even for a two year old, there's like some
Speaker 1: there's definitely some realizations that that little kid has. There's
Speaker 1: one here about kiots. I'm gonna find it that I
Speaker 1: that I like, um good bit. And really it just
Speaker 1: comes back to morals and ethics around shooting something that
Speaker 1: maybe not killing it. This is from Brock stupor you're stubborn,
Speaker 1: however you say your name Brock. I have an ethnic
Speaker 1: s morals question in regards on in coyotes. I guess
Speaker 1: the issue I run into when predator hunting is the
Speaker 1: fact that the animal is wasted. I've shot coyotes over
Speaker 1: the years, and I hate the feeling wasting the animal
Speaker 1: and leaving it lay. At the same time, kyote hunting
Speaker 1: is a great excuse for me to get in the
Speaker 1: woods and permission to hunt kayots. It's easy to get.
Speaker 1: Is this something that I'll need to get over and
Speaker 1: just look at the positives of having the opportunity to hunt.
Speaker 1: I suppose I could take the hides from the coyotes
Speaker 1: like I do when I get a bobcat, But even
Speaker 1: then I don't know if the hides, if I'd have
Speaker 1: the time to tan the hides I get already from
Speaker 1: other critters. I also look at it from a deer
Speaker 1: preservation standpoint too, but I don't know if I can
Speaker 1: get on board with that whole thing. I feel like
Speaker 1: people disrespect the kaya because it's a predator and does
Speaker 1: what it needs to survive. Maybe I'm ever thinking this,
Speaker 1: but I'd love to hear your viewpoint on this topic.
Speaker 1: Thanks Rock. Shooting kayats leaving them lay? Is that ethical
Speaker 1: and moral? Man, that's a real personal ethics moral question
Speaker 1: for me. It just doesn't feel right. I can agree
Speaker 1: with that, and I actually don't like. I don't think
Speaker 1: that it's ethically you're wrong, I really don't, but something
Speaker 1: inside of me just it just doesn't feel right. Well,
Speaker 1: we've all met the hunter, slash ranchers, lest landowner that says,
Speaker 1: every time you see a guy out or bobcat or
Speaker 1: any type of predator, you whack it. If it's legal,
Speaker 1: you whack it. If it's illegal, show shoot, shouble and
Speaker 1: shut up. I mean, I've been in that situation a
Speaker 1: lot with badgers, with anything really, even in Montana here
Speaker 1: some years ago, with wolves. Yeah, and that's all it
Speaker 1: really takes for me to be uh, you know, spun
Speaker 1: over too, like it maybe not not feeling bad about
Speaker 1: it at all. Is if all of a sudden, you know,
Speaker 1: at my place we had in two years, it turns
Speaker 1: into we have like a little hobby farm and there's
Speaker 1: I don't know, fifty chickens and there's you know, constant
Speaker 1: issues with chios for foxes, like they're going to be
Speaker 1: getting killed may or may not be using the fur.
Speaker 1: I think mostly I probably would um you it at
Speaker 1: least think about it. You would be shoot him and
Speaker 1: toss him in a ditch. But again, the it's like
Speaker 1: a kyote for someone can write in and tell us
Speaker 1: like what to do with them. I have some from
Speaker 1: friends that have just given me coyotes that they trapped.
Speaker 1: They were tanned, and it's a great decoration. They can't
Speaker 1: in the wintertime. They can't be really nice, But you're
Speaker 1: not gonna wear them like that. You might line like
Speaker 1: your hood on your jacket. I've actually been thinking about
Speaker 1: it because no, there it's like a very technically proven
Speaker 1: like way to keep like sort of like a buffer
Speaker 1: of air in front of your face and keep the
Speaker 1: wind off your face. But yeah, what else are you
Speaker 1: gonna do with it? I mean, you might be able
Speaker 1: to trim out a couple of a jacket for your gal.
Speaker 1: You do look up, I'm looking at us for kyotes,
Speaker 1: the shooting. I'm looking up the shooting kyotes make more coyotes.
Speaker 1: I don't know that's a shitty Google term, but I've
Speaker 1: heard from a lot of biologists, not a lot, a
Speaker 1: several biologists that shooting kyotes creates more coyotes. Anyway, Well,
Speaker 1: you can listen to Dan Flores talk about you know,
Speaker 1: he studied up real good on coyotes when you wrote
Speaker 1: Coyote America. Yeah, that's a great day to talk about
Speaker 1: this with. I mean, the one takeaway from that, the
Speaker 1: whole conversation in that book is that we have tried
Speaker 1: our asses off for over a hundred years two extirpate
Speaker 1: that species, tried very hard X dynamite and poison and
Speaker 1: aerial gunning, and the coyote is too bad ass for us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: um has been. It wasn't too long ago that they
Speaker 1: were only west of the Mississippi and now, I mean,
Speaker 1: just take an animal that lives in swamps, it lives
Speaker 1: in uh prairies, it lives in forests, it lives in anywhere.
Speaker 1: It's like water man. It just hits it and just
Speaker 1: goes around it. Yeah, so here's a there's an article
Speaker 1: from Outdoor Life by a feller name what's your name name? Guy?
Speaker 1: Author man Dave Dave Kramer, and this is from teen
Speaker 1: but he basically just goes through and it is talking
Speaker 1: about how it's situational. In some situations it's great and
Speaker 1: others not so much. And so that's one thing to
Speaker 1: think about when you're shooting coyotes, like, are you just like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think from what this guy saying, he
Speaker 1: likes to go have the hunting opportunity, it's it's it's fun.
Speaker 1: There's the fun thing. Again, you're out at a time
Speaker 1: when you like not a lot of other UM seasons
Speaker 1: aren't open. So what you would consider like an off
Speaker 1: season of hunting, um, you can always fall back on
Speaker 1: predator control. But uh, all that all that being said,
Speaker 1: that's kind of complicated and situational. What isn't situational is
Speaker 1: that you're shooting an animal and leaving it lay and
Speaker 1: you're really not intending to use any part of it,
Speaker 1: So like, you know, erase all that other stuff like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fun and you're shooting an animal leaving it lay
Speaker 1: for me, I am. I wasn't always with you, but
Speaker 1: I am at this point in my life like I
Speaker 1: am not. I do not desire to go shoot things
Speaker 1: and throw them in ditches. I just don't And and
Speaker 1: then I don't. I don't, Like I said, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's wrong for someone to do without a reason. Right,
Speaker 1: if if some ranger came to fun, Yeah, if some
Speaker 1: ranger came to me and said, hey, look, I know
Speaker 1: you've been mule deer hunting on my ranch. You know, um,
Speaker 1: if you don't mind as a you know, as a
Speaker 1: favor to me for mulely hunting on my ranch, do
Speaker 1: you mind coming up in February and shooting a half
Speaker 1: dozen cos you're spending a week and shooting as many
Speaker 1: cocks as you can get because I've got a glut
Speaker 1: of coyotes and they're bothering my livestock and I need
Speaker 1: your help with that. I'd be like, yeah, sure, no problem,
Speaker 1: because then I'm like I have a reason to do it.
Speaker 1: But if I'm sitting around in the cash so you
Speaker 1: don't feel like the blood's on your hands, not as much,
Speaker 1: but there still as a reason, like I still am.
Speaker 1: But if you don't necessarily agree with his reasoning, just
Speaker 1: sort of like making excuses. You're right, I would have
Speaker 1: to agree with his reasoning first, so like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I think reasoning is having a reason to do
Speaker 1: what you're doing. Is is at the crux of all
Speaker 1: these questions, almost every one of these questions is what
Speaker 1: is the reason you're doing what you're doing? So coyotes
Speaker 1: is no different. It's like, what's the reason you're doing it?
Speaker 1: Because you're sitting around on Saturday and there's no football on,
Speaker 1: and you're really you're used to going out and chasing
Speaker 1: deer and there really the only way to get outside
Speaker 1: and kill stuff is to go kill kyotes. Listen, man,
Speaker 1: Like that's a dangerous road to go on because then
Speaker 1: you're just you need an excuse to kill stuff and
Speaker 1: it ends up being it. Yeah, you're not gonna eat it.
Speaker 1: I was tried one. Wasn't that good? What's the what's
Speaker 1: the flavor profile? I would say, you know, it was
Speaker 1: very like stinky duck really yeah, like diver duck ish
Speaker 1: that kind of like a livery profile. No, that's never good.
Speaker 1: And he gave me with a livery profile like go
Speaker 1: high iron never the only thing you should taste like livers, liver,
Speaker 1: and even liver hopefully doesn't taste like liver. Um, so
Speaker 1: what do you like? What do you you know? What's
Speaker 1: the Are you standing on that ground or do you
Speaker 1: look down on other people that do that? That might say,
Speaker 1: like again, because I don't like it's legal, and I
Speaker 1: don't think that like again, personally, I don't think my
Speaker 1: my ethics are necessarily against um well, my personal I
Speaker 1: think is our against killing stuff on that and letting
Speaker 1: it lay. Yeah, that's where I draw. That's like my
Speaker 1: first thought is if I'm killing it and letting it lay,
Speaker 1: there better be a damn good reason to do it.
Speaker 1: There better be a real sound reason to do it,
Speaker 1: and and I'll have to have thought it through pretty good.
Speaker 1: I used to not be like that. He's be like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's one shoot at bam dead cool, I'm saving them,
Speaker 1: saving the deer. Oh, not really knowing if That's what
Speaker 1: I'm doing or not. So I think a lot of
Speaker 1: hunters get in that situation where up saving the deer,
Speaker 1: shot that guy out. Really, are you maybe you want
Speaker 1: to look into that before you kill something, Maybe look
Speaker 1: into one really is going on? Okay, But here's here's
Speaker 1: where it gets. I'm gonna keep going on this one
Speaker 1: because it's, uh, we talked about this last week a
Speaker 1: little bit because the Kyle sort of dictates that we
Speaker 1: have this conversation about whether it's okay throw it in
Speaker 1: the ditch after you kill it. As you go smaller
Speaker 1: and smaller down the chain of living things, it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter if you're a vegan. Um, I don't know how
Speaker 1: to make like the like the picturesque Buddha, like just
Speaker 1: like the happiest person that's most in tune with the world.
Speaker 1: Very few people are going to try to save a
Speaker 1: hundred ants that are invading their kitchen and trying to
Speaker 1: get them to like walk out of their house instead
Speaker 1: of just stomping on all of them, are spraying with
Speaker 1: bleach or however they decide to dispose of them. So like,
Speaker 1: why why do we have these like this sort of
Speaker 1: like cut off line somewhere yep, where it's like there's
Speaker 1: some anthropomorphism in there, right, I mean, like it has
Speaker 1: a face in it, and it has personality characteristics of humans.
Speaker 1: That's all sn our ethics are, Like, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I don't know if this directly gives to what you're
Speaker 1: talking about. But I think hunters specifically, I love it
Speaker 1: and fucking and are unabashed in a lot of ways
Speaker 1: when the gloves come off, like when it's like Farrell Hawks,
Speaker 1: shoot him, shoot him, don't worry about it. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: have to kill him. And then like this is a
Speaker 1: big thing that I have, Like this is ethically and morally.
Speaker 1: Where I kind of draw some lines is like two hunters,
Speaker 1: like I hunt for conservation and hunt for the meat,
Speaker 1: and I don't, you know, I don't enjoy the killing.
Speaker 1: But then when we take the gloves off, we're like,
Speaker 1: kill that thing. We need them all dead. And then
Speaker 1: we're in helicopters mowing shipped down. We're whooping in a holler,
Speaker 1: and we're throwing grenades at him. We're shooting him with
Speaker 1: you know, semi automatic a R S with I R
Speaker 1: lasers at night with night vision and having fun doing
Speaker 1: it and stacking them up like, oh look at this,
Speaker 1: the gloves are off. Now I've killed these in maths
Speaker 1: and I'm having a great time to do it. But
Speaker 1: I feel like I've never done that particular thing. But
Speaker 1: one thing that I did once that we only did once,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if we ever talked about it,
Speaker 1: the opportunity still was there because there was a pond
Speaker 1: that was I don't know, a hundred yards or so
Speaker 1: from the dirt road that ran up to the hunting
Speaker 1: cabin when the guests would stay, and it was twenty
Speaker 1: yards from our guide cabin. And one day we sat
Speaker 1: there and shot I don't know, five hundred rounds down
Speaker 1: of this pond at muskrats something around. No intention of
Speaker 1: going to pick up the muskrats now at the time
Speaker 1: when we're having fun, Yes, but we did it. And
Speaker 1: it was like, even though we never talked about it,
Speaker 1: we in the opportunity was always there. It was never
Speaker 1: something that we were like, let's go do that again, right,
Speaker 1: So you feel you had to do it once to learn.
Speaker 1: I almost feel like it's the same thing like you're
Speaker 1: kind of describing with the gloves off. There's I don't
Speaker 1: think there's very few people that, like time and time again,
Speaker 1: are just gonna get their jollies from just mowing down
Speaker 1: and killing and killing and killing and killing and just
Speaker 1: continue to want more and more and more of it.
Speaker 1: It's true. I get with you on that, and you're saying,
Speaker 1: like people are generally good. That's what you're saying. You're
Speaker 1: saying that people will generally realize the error of their
Speaker 1: ways a few dozen hogs into them. And I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's yeah, if it's the air, but I
Speaker 1: just don't think that, like most people actually like it's
Speaker 1: not that good that you want to repeat it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean there was a study back. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it was in the seventies, but there's a study.
Speaker 1: Have to look it up now. There's a study about
Speaker 1: like the stages of hunting, stages of being a hunter.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a little bit outdated now because
Speaker 1: it was I think it was in the seventies. But
Speaker 1: the first one was like fun shooting or something like
Speaker 1: I love to shoot. That was like the first stage
Speaker 1: of hunting. And I think that's again, it's not it's
Speaker 1: when you're that's like a natural that ends up being
Speaker 1: a natural progression for people. I think he's like, I
Speaker 1: love adult onset hunters probably don't go through it as much,
Speaker 1: but when you're a twelve year old boy, dude, it's
Speaker 1: fisceral for you, like like if it's alive, it should die. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not every little boy with a BB gun. Shooting squirrels
Speaker 1: and birds in the head is a serial killer or
Speaker 1: some kind of you know, unethical monster. So there's like
Speaker 1: there is some natural progression of that. No, So you're right.
Speaker 1: I think you're right in the fact that if you
Speaker 1: truly do enjoy the gloves off thing in perpetuity, you
Speaker 1: got a problem. Man, Like you're not. You might you
Speaker 1: might have to get the checked out. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: won't name the people that were in the helicopter, but
Speaker 1: I know that you were in the helicopter. Well, I've
Speaker 1: been in a lot of situations where I've been in
Speaker 1: I've done helicopters once, but I've done two or three
Speaker 1: from times where it was like night hunting for hogs
Speaker 1: and it was like I our lasers full on helmets
Speaker 1: with would drop down night vision and you know, we're
Speaker 1: we're shooting M four's suppressed and we're rolling around like
Speaker 1: the fields of Texas like a little you know, commando team,
Speaker 1: shooting as many hogs as we can get. And if
Speaker 1: we just so happened to shoot one square in the ass,
Speaker 1: not a big deal, because it's just a hawk. It's
Speaker 1: an invasive species, so killing them all is what we're after.
Speaker 1: And that's the freaking slippery slope. Man, It's a slippery slope. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the one that the what I don't like about
Speaker 1: that is that killing them all and extra painting them
Speaker 1: is actually not what any one of those people wants,
Speaker 1: because then they couldn't continue that fun activity of pretending
Speaker 1: like your g I t exactly exactly. And like that's
Speaker 1: where I've always been like you you say, like, so
Speaker 1: that's where the bullshit comes in this you came back onto.
Speaker 1: Steve has talked about Australia a lot around like, yeah,
Speaker 1: just recently with what's going on in New Zealand, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're starting to have they're starting to have to
Speaker 1: come to terms with, hey, we got a bunch these
Speaker 1: non natives and we love to hunt them, and and
Speaker 1: and our justification for hunting is around the fact that
Speaker 1: we are eliminating non native animals. But then when the
Speaker 1: government says, hey, we'll step in and take care of
Speaker 1: that for you. Let us just we'll get the helicopters,
Speaker 1: just do it for you. No words, You're you're having
Speaker 1: to walk a lot. They're like, no, no, no, don't
Speaker 1: do it, Like what what isn't that what you were doing, yeah,
Speaker 1: which I think is fine. They're just uh, it's just
Speaker 1: causing him to rethink thinking, and they're just gonna have
Speaker 1: to say, you know what, I was wrong. There are
Speaker 1: all these all these other reasons that make this activity
Speaker 1: great for me. Yeah, and so I think, yeah, and
Speaker 1: I well, not even I was wrong in that case,
Speaker 1: you'd be like, I was wrong with the way I
Speaker 1: presented my reasoning. I was wrong. I wanted to present it,
Speaker 1: but I mean just that I reasoned that I reasoned
Speaker 1: it well, I was. I would like there to be
Speaker 1: a balance, right, not to kill them all, you know,
Speaker 1: so like when I shoot a thing, I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna go out there and be like, here, I
Speaker 1: am shooting this fox just because it's non native. That's
Speaker 1: not the way, like, hey, I'm shooting this predator because
Speaker 1: I believe that I believe and I've done some research
Speaker 1: to the place that I'm at that says the shooting
Speaker 1: this fox is beneficial rather than like it's not native,
Speaker 1: Bam dead, No excuse, Because if if the government starts
Speaker 1: applying your own rationale to to wildlife, then they're all
Speaker 1: gonna die. So you better come up with a freaking
Speaker 1: better one, just in case of New Zealand, because then
Speaker 1: they'll just kill them all. There's nothing you can do.
Speaker 1: So we started out at Coyotes and got to New Zealand.
Speaker 1: That was that's that's impressive. But I I that's right,
Speaker 1: That's where I'm at. The older I get, the more
Speaker 1: I don't. I really want to have thought out the
Speaker 1: killing of a thing that's just me. You're there too,
Speaker 1: for sure? All right? Uh Marshal Sea door right son
Speaker 1: on on an only going debate among my circle of
Speaker 1: hunting friends, what situation ranks higher on the hunting purity
Speaker 1: scale regarding archer and hunting Before we get into his
Speaker 1: situations here, do you believe that, like the hunting purity
Speaker 1: scale has anything to do with ethics? No? Why not?
Speaker 1: Because the hunting purity scale, man, it's just it's a
Speaker 1: totally made up thing that again is going to change
Speaker 1: on every person's experiences and sounds like sex and right,
Speaker 1: But a scale requires like other people to participate in
Speaker 1: the same scale, unless you're just gonna walk around saying,
Speaker 1: on my own hunt, purity scale rates like this, like
Speaker 1: my feeling of purity on this hunt, my personal feelings
Speaker 1: that it's eight what is your personal feeling. Oh, it's
Speaker 1: a four because you know the based on where you
Speaker 1: grew up. You grew up in Texas, sitting over feeder
Speaker 1: is is fine. It could be eight or nine if
Speaker 1: you grew up in um Montana sitting over to feeders
Speaker 1: all one every time. Yes, So then what's the purpose
Speaker 1: of having the scale for your own for your own
Speaker 1: personal satisfaction that you like? For me, this is a
Speaker 1: ten so you can communicate to other hunters where your
Speaker 1: value systems lie. That's why I believe purity scales. So
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what, here's where my value systems
Speaker 1: are ten here and you're like, no, I'm a five.
Speaker 1: So just doing that as opposed to just explaining your
Speaker 1: personal morals and ethics around that's why easier to put
Speaker 1: a number on it. Yeahnning than no. But I think
Speaker 1: that's like for me, public land is more pure, so
Speaker 1: for me, I don't really care. But it's a good
Speaker 1: way to judge because everything. Everybody certainly has different perspectives
Speaker 1: as what we've said with ethics too, So that's right.
Speaker 1: But that's right, But I can get with you on
Speaker 1: it it being a useless U I think it's fun
Speaker 1: you're driving around in a truck. Yeah, I'm not. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying like I would if if the law came
Speaker 1: to me and they're like, hey listen, but I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna really like apply it to some sort of like
Speaker 1: my morals. Well we'll go through this anyway. Now we've
Speaker 1: totally defunct this question. But because it's fun. Um, So
Speaker 1: what ranks higher on the purity scale regarding archery? Antalope hunting?
Speaker 1: Shooting an antelope from a blind on a water hole
Speaker 1: you scouted and put up weeks prior to hunting season,
Speaker 1: or shooting an antelope while driving through public land and
Speaker 1: rolling out of a moving car to quickly run off
Speaker 1: the road draw unreleased before the antelope runs referred to
Speaker 1: by my friends has drive by that's Marshall set or
Speaker 1: if he's got to. He seemed like two very specific
Speaker 1: things that probably happened during a specific hunt. So man
Speaker 1: one purity on those? I like how one. I like
Speaker 1: how one is on public land. It sounds like they're
Speaker 1: both on public land, but he only mentions driving through
Speaker 1: public land, So well, let's just assume they're both. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because somehow public land always makes it seem more pure
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, you on tough for competition usually usually
Speaker 1: animals gotta have a little more edge on them. Um.
Speaker 1: But man, like, I really appreciate what it takes to
Speaker 1: do that scouting, to set that blind, to sit it
Speaker 1: with the right wind. Um. You know, they're the work
Speaker 1: goes in before time, beforehand obviously, because once you're in
Speaker 1: it in that dark house, animal comes in. They really
Speaker 1: shouldn't know you're there when you get the shot. And
Speaker 1: then but then to have like the athletic prowess and
Speaker 1: uh spatial awareness and the you know, agility that would
Speaker 1: take to roll out of a car and as you're
Speaker 1: rolling in the ditch knock an arrow and then come
Speaker 1: up on a wary animal, like an animal that doesn't
Speaker 1: duck the string and run the creation, roll up, maintain
Speaker 1: your composure through your draw like some character. Now yeah,
Speaker 1: that's uh yeah, So I don't know. I can't say
Speaker 1: if one of those more pure than the other. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think he might be looking for us to say
Speaker 1: that somehow using that vehicle and rolling out of it
Speaker 1: is just sort of maybe drop it down, because I
Speaker 1: would say, oh, if he's like, oh, well, what about
Speaker 1: unrolling the window and sticking your rifle out and shooting it. Well,
Speaker 1: then it's like, sure, the other one is way more pure. Well,
Speaker 1: road hunting is always road hunting, if that's what that is,
Speaker 1: is always like this topic of in my my own
Speaker 1: circles and just my own head a topic of debate,
Speaker 1: because there's there's places in the world where just like
Speaker 1: hunting over bait is way better. Up in Quebec, where
Speaker 1: there's no other way to see the animals because the
Speaker 1: forest is so thick. There's some ranches that are so
Speaker 1: flat that you can't find a tip to go glass room,
Speaker 1: you know, and Wyoming, this is the case a lot
Speaker 1: of times. It's so the way to cover country and
Speaker 1: find the animals, it's getting a car and drive around.
Speaker 1: And these animals are used to trucks, so the mostly
Speaker 1: just stand there and watch you. And, Um, if while
Speaker 1: you're driving around looking for one you'd like to shoot,
Speaker 1: one happens to be right by the road, what are
Speaker 1: you gonna do to drive drive a mile away and
Speaker 1: then walk back to it, like you know, so for
Speaker 1: me sometimes like okay, in in certain situations, driving around
Speaker 1: looking for animals to shoot is I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world. No. But again, I
Speaker 1: think it's one of those things that most people that
Speaker 1: are truly really hunters. I'm speaking from my own experience
Speaker 1: because in Nebraska what I've done a fair amount of
Speaker 1: deer hunting, it is legal to shoot out of the
Speaker 1: car once you're off I think it's off the county road.
Speaker 1: You have to be all yeah, yeah, you have to
Speaker 1: be on a fourth service road. In Montana that same
Speaker 1: you have to be here, it's the county road. You
Speaker 1: have to be certain. Yeah. But I don't think you
Speaker 1: can shoot out of the vehicle. No, you can't shootut
Speaker 1: of it. No, No, but in Nebraska you can. Don't
Speaker 1: get out of the car just leaning over the rear
Speaker 1: view mirror caught loose while you're listening to Jimmie Hendrix. Um,
Speaker 1: we had a season where the right group of people
Speaker 1: were there that were all like, very excited about this
Speaker 1: opportunity to do that. We did a bunch of it.
Speaker 1: You could kill a bunch of deer. I think we
Speaker 1: had twenty some deer hanging in the tree by the
Speaker 1: end of the week. Um. Subsequent years we just never
Speaker 1: did that again. Everybody was like, you know what, that
Speaker 1: was a thing that we did, and now we're going
Speaker 1: to choose to to a spot park and go walk
Speaker 1: and hunt, because that's how we prefer to do. I'm
Speaker 1: d I would never put myself in the situation to
Speaker 1: go drive around like. That's not what I would choose
Speaker 1: to do. I would always put myself a situation where
Speaker 1: I knew, you know, walking was the way, like and
Speaker 1: and you know ship when we were in Mexico last year,
Speaker 1: you could just as easily killed a nice cues buck
Speaker 1: for getting in the getting in the old side by
Speaker 1: side riding around, I think just as easily as glass
Speaker 1: and went up. I cover more country, you'll run into
Speaker 1: one eventually. You should try that this year back down
Speaker 1: next year we're back down there. I want to see
Speaker 1: how it goes. I'll let you know my purity scale.
Speaker 1: Three days they do it well, I'll be chasing them
Speaker 1: all over the all over the branch. It's kind of funny,
Speaker 1: but but they're they're such a it's always you bump
Speaker 1: into him here and there and doing that. Um so
Speaker 1: you gotta have your rifle ready though, get ready. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think I would always like having done those
Speaker 1: things before, saying with high fence, having done them just
Speaker 1: like your question around, like shooting pratt coyotes or whacking
Speaker 1: a bunch of hogs. Having done them, I now know
Speaker 1: for my own personal purity score that ain't the way.
Speaker 1: So I'm never gonna put myself a situation where you know,
Speaker 1: I'm hunting a ranch where driving around is the only
Speaker 1: way to get it done. And it might be like
Speaker 1: the purity scale of a the some of of a
Speaker 1: week of hunting, where you have you've been pounding it
Speaker 1: for five days all over the mountains, no luck. On
Speaker 1: the sixth day, you're driving home from the morning hunt,
Speaker 1: back to the lodge or camp or wherever, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden there's ex animal like just rolling over
Speaker 1: the ridge. Dude, I'm bailing out. I'm gonna go chase
Speaker 1: after it, or bailing out and laying down and get
Speaker 1: my right up for a shot. The only moose I
Speaker 1: ever shot in my life, I was with Joe Rogan
Speaker 1: Nu shot a moose that we were driving over to
Speaker 1: park and get wall cut blocks, and two giant bulls
Speaker 1: across the road. I jumped out, jump across the bar
Speaker 1: dish ran up into the field and shot one. And
Speaker 1: I was super happy about that, Like I'm not I
Speaker 1: don't feel like that was a bad experience. We hunted
Speaker 1: hard and that's what happened to be where the one was.
Speaker 1: But yeah, putting yourself in a situation, why I'm hunting
Speaker 1: this ranch in New Mexico where you know, you really
Speaker 1: just have to drive around. That's really the only way
Speaker 1: to get a look at you know, what's there, or
Speaker 1: sit a water hole or whatever. Um if I had
Speaker 1: to pick, I'd sit a water hole, and so purity,
Speaker 1: I gave the water all the wind over jumping out
Speaker 1: of any vehicle and doing anything, no matter how rambo
Speaker 1: you look. Because I I wonder I have to ask Marshall,
Speaker 1: did somebody actually fucking do that? I know guys that
Speaker 1: roll that program with mule Deer in Kansas. Yeah, my
Speaker 1: dad just my dad was just out in Montana here
Speaker 1: and and uh and broadest where it's flat, and then
Speaker 1: you came back from a guided hunt. He was like,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have liked that. I was like, well, you
Speaker 1: mean I wouldn't like that. He's like, yeah, it was
Speaker 1: drive around the trucks spotting deer. You see, when you
Speaker 1: want to get out and go after it, if you
Speaker 1: don't get to go back to the truck drive around
Speaker 1: some more and I was like, yeah, you're right. I
Speaker 1: would not have liked that. But for him, you know,
Speaker 1: he enjoyed himself. So I'm not gonna but I don't
Speaker 1: judge you for that. He's sixty some years old. It
Speaker 1: signed his whole life. That's you know, that's the way
Speaker 1: that that went with the challenge. He felt challenge. It
Speaker 1: was cold that that they had to look over a
Speaker 1: lot of country. They did, you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: had a lot of fun and it was more about
Speaker 1: the people and the experience and seeing the country. And
Speaker 1: he brought home like he was just about out of meat,
Speaker 1: brought home some meat. He was super happy with him.
Speaker 1: So purity scaled ten. That's great for me, Like, I'm
Speaker 1: happy that he's happy. So when it comes down to that,
Speaker 1: like you got people in your clothes hunting circles that
Speaker 1: are doing stuff like that, fucking just be supportive if
Speaker 1: they're not being fully morally assholes or you know, be supportive.
Speaker 1: I would say, at the end of the day, if
Speaker 1: they're not doing something you feel like you have to question, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and again a lot of times for yeah, a lot
Speaker 1: of times your morals if you're having questions about your
Speaker 1: personal morals and ethics around hunting. If you follow the rags,
Speaker 1: you're probably going to be falling in a pretty safe
Speaker 1: place and most people will be like, say, you're responsible. Okay.
Speaker 1: Last one, what's your take on shooting does with fawn
Speaker 1: slash deer of that year? I've always been of the
Speaker 1: opinion that once the spots are gone, they are able
Speaker 1: to survive on their own. That doesn't sound right, meaning
Speaker 1: they are not relying on mother's milk. So if I
Speaker 1: choose to shoot the mother, I don't have to worry
Speaker 1: about the fawns survival. And he goes over some some
Speaker 1: This is Corey Dukehardt, by the way, and he goes
Speaker 1: over some situational stuff that um that he's done. But
Speaker 1: he hunts a lot for meat and it's had some
Speaker 1: situations where he's wanted to shoot a nice, big fat
Speaker 1: dough for meat and she's had some young uns with her,
Speaker 1: and he's had to make some tough decisions ethical decisions
Speaker 1: around that. Uh, what do you think Corey Ducard should do? Yanni,
Speaker 1: No problem, No problem, am no ethical conundrum for me.
Speaker 1: Where you draw the line is it spots? Is it
Speaker 1: one year? Two years? I think that the biologists have
Speaker 1: thought that through that set up your hunting seasons, and
Speaker 1: that if there was a risk of you know, hurting
Speaker 1: the population, the population dynamics, herd health, whatever it might
Speaker 1: be because you're shooting cows or does too close to
Speaker 1: breeding seat or too close to gestation or whatever like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: then they wouldn't have that. I agree with that. I
Speaker 1: think that's a pretty simple one and that's the right answer.
Speaker 1: I killed the big fat dough in Michigan last week
Speaker 1: that had two dough two phones with her, and uh,
Speaker 1: I felt a little bad about it. I did those
Speaker 1: fawns like they have to do hung around. I was
Speaker 1: just gonna ask you that because I've had that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: once be kind of disappeared, like once all the deer
Speaker 1: blew out from the shot. But then they're just happened
Speaker 1: to be these two funds that kept kind of circling through,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, But yeah, I'm not gonna anthropomorphis. It's
Speaker 1: like that's like the Kingdom and they're like they're going
Speaker 1: to figure out their own thing within hours and be
Speaker 1: good for him. Probably not UM. When I was young, young,
Speaker 1: maybe fifteen sixteen, I shot though one like open day
Speaker 1: rival season with a family friend, and I remember walking
Speaker 1: up on the stone and being super excited and then
Speaker 1: looking across and seeing a couple of fawns, you know,
Speaker 1: fifty yards away that I hadn't seen, and being like
Speaker 1: just sad, really sad because I'm gutting this deer. At
Speaker 1: these deer circling me in fifty yards, you know, M
Speaker 1: doing that thing where they're like breaking their neck to
Speaker 1: look and see what you're doing, whether that it's their
Speaker 1: mom or not, you know, type of thing. So they're
Speaker 1: not actually thinking that no, no, no, but they're like,
Speaker 1: what happened there? I think they're more just confused about
Speaker 1: what the hell just happened than they are. But there's
Speaker 1: no way to note that, right, I don't know, And
Speaker 1: so I remember being like, very briefly like I'm not
Speaker 1: doing this again, but then pretty quickly realizing that's kind
Speaker 1: of the risk you take when you're doing it. Like
Speaker 1: you said, I mean, it's kind of what you're doing
Speaker 1: every time you go out and kill something. So if
Speaker 1: you're shooting does, you're kind of doing it every time.
Speaker 1: A lot of people have an ethical conundrum with UH, like,
Speaker 1: is there a certain age that you should let an
Speaker 1: animal get to before you kill it. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: we definitely with with livestock, with factory farming, have got
Speaker 1: rid of that. You ever you have veal or you know,
Speaker 1: anything of that nature. We've definitely not say, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: the cow has to be grass fed, free range and
Speaker 1: three years old. We don't. We don't do that. We
Speaker 1: don't do that at all. In fact, we do the opposite,
Speaker 1: you know, like hey, as fast as fat as possible.
Speaker 1: And so if you're just talking to meat wise, then
Speaker 1: you you kind there's a parallel there to me, and
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, nobody's shooting does for the you know, trophies.
Speaker 1: Most people shooting does are doing it for the meat. Cows. Saying,
Speaker 1: any any female critter you shoot, you're mostly time shooting
Speaker 1: it for the meat, I would say, And I can't
Speaker 1: think of an issue what any other way you would
Speaker 1: be doing it? Um and as you're purely doing population control,
Speaker 1: which you should still eat to meet anyway. So so
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I mean, shoot the dough and eat
Speaker 1: the meat. And if you're doing that, you're fine. Yep,
Speaker 1: don't worry about take a mom out of the herd.
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it. Well, it's still snowing out here
Speaker 1: in bows Man. Yeah. I think we're supposed to get
Speaker 1: a few inches out of it. Mostly we're gonna get
Speaker 1: some cold. I think it's going single digit tonight, That's
Speaker 1: what they say. I like it for now. Come see
Speaker 1: me in February and I'll let you know. Is it
Speaker 1: just it's not December yet? Um? But it's it's been nice.
Speaker 1: It's been like the perfect call. I think. I'm I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, come too early. Now we're not sitting here
Speaker 1: going oh man, I hope it starts snowing like we're
Speaker 1: getting some snow. It's good being a new Bosman Bozeman
Speaker 1: Indian bows Man in person, I feel like some of
Speaker 1: the winter stuff maybe a little bit overstated. But I
Speaker 1: mean it gets cold here, and but I think it's
Speaker 1: such a it's such a great place to live. People
Speaker 1: have them very much to complain about, so they just
Speaker 1: roll it into like what's the one bad thing that
Speaker 1: gets really cold? But I mean it's back where I'm
Speaker 1: from in Maryland, it's no you know, six eight in
Speaker 1: is yesterday and there was forty degrees here and really nice.
Speaker 1: So I mean it's just it's situational people like talk
Speaker 1: about the weather. That's rights your Thanksgiving look like there, John, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, we've got some friends in town. Were not
Speaker 1: doing any family, not doing any traveling friends in town.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do a friends giving, they like to call it.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, I have a very loud room
Speaker 1: full of kids and uh, otherwise I'm gonna do some
Speaker 1: hunting around Thanksgiving. Very nice, very nice to walk the
Speaker 1: mountains beautiful. I'll be back in Maryland with my family. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're last last week there. I don't have a bunch
Speaker 1: of family in town. Do that. Uh, maybe get out
Speaker 1: hunted day. I doubt it, but maybe. And then uh,
Speaker 1: we're coming back to Bozeman for good. I'm closing our
Speaker 1: house in permanent residents. Nice. We're excited. Hopefully we solved
Speaker 1: all your ethical you'll have another ethical quandary about coyotes
Speaker 1: or shooting does or anything like that, because Janni has
Speaker 1: you asked the eagle, and the Eagle answered. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me on, Ben, It's fun. Thanks for coming on, Yannie.
Speaker 1: That's it. That's all. This episode of the Hunting Collective
Speaker 1: is finished. Thank you to all of you for sending
Speaker 1: in your questions. Your ethical quandries, and thanks to Janni
Speaker 1: Pitelis for helping me do my best to answer those
Speaker 1: to give our perspectives. Well, what's up with all these
Speaker 1: difficult situations out in the woods. We've all been there,
Speaker 1: so again, great podcast, thanks for tuning in? And uh,
Speaker 1: next week? What's up next week? Who we got next week?
Speaker 1: Oh ship, we got Charles Post. Charles Post coming up
Speaker 1: next week. Now, Charles has already been on twice, but
Speaker 1: I wanted to catch up with Charles and in that
Speaker 1: one about grizzly bears and wildfires and all kinds of
Speaker 1: great topics. So hopefully you'll listen next week for that
Speaker 1: one another episode of Hunting Collective. Until then, go to
Speaker 1: the Mediator dot com. You'll find everything Hunting Collective there.
Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective dot com is kind of dormant as
Speaker 1: we move the business over to Meetia and Incorporated and
Speaker 1: have everything living on the Mediator dot com. So if
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Speaker 1: Until next time, thanks for joining us on the Hunting Collective.
Speaker 1: By one