WEBVTT - How Animal Testing Works

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<v Speaker 1>This episode of Stuff You Should Know is sponsored by Squarespace.

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<v Speaker 1>website apart. Welcome to you Stuff you Should Know from

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<v Speaker 1>House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W Chuck Bryant. This

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<v Speaker 1>is Stuff you Should Know the podcast, not the least

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<v Speaker 1>of which is membered by Jerry. That was exciting. I

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<v Speaker 1>have a bad cold. Yeah, my brain is not functioning

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<v Speaker 1>quite right. Yeah, but this is not the old days

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<v Speaker 1>where you have the six weeks of cold. Right, Hopefully

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<v Speaker 1>this will be just a couple of episodes, right, bear

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<v Speaker 1>with us, yeah, bear, But to make up for it,

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<v Speaker 1>I have all my teeth finally, right. It's just this

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<v Speaker 1>constant pendulum, that's right, swings from one of us to

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<v Speaker 1>the other. Got all toothed up yesterday, feeling good. The

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<v Speaker 1>eight months is over. Like, click your teeth together for everybody,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm afraid to Okay, you're like they're precious. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>gotta treat them very carefully and I got fitted for

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<v Speaker 1>a bite guard, so I when I grind my teeth

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<v Speaker 1>at night doesn't keep happening. So things are looking good.

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<v Speaker 1>Everything's coming up, Chuck. That's funny. Jumy has a bike

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<v Speaker 1>guard too, from grinding her teeth. So two of the

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<v Speaker 1>most significant people in my life on their teeth, both

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<v Speaker 1>kind on their teeth. Did she bought her fingernaut? I don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Does she bought her fingers? Yeah? I take out my

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<v Speaker 1>stresses on my body. Yeah, those are short nails. Do

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<v Speaker 1>they hurt? Do they just ache? Because sometimes if I

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<v Speaker 1>overdo it, they do. If I when I cut my

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<v Speaker 1>nails and I file them a little too short, they

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<v Speaker 1>just ache for a day or so afterward. Yeah. To

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<v Speaker 1>have it, I've always done it. Yeah, like since you

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<v Speaker 1>can remember. Yeah, I wore that bitter polish for a

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<v Speaker 1>while when I was a kid to try and I

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<v Speaker 1>just cheered right through it. Yeah. It was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>it's so better. Still must bite if I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>like it in a weird way. Yeah, the part of

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<v Speaker 1>me that hates myself loves that taste. So weird. Well, Chuck,

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about another habit, a habit that humans have

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<v Speaker 1>had for a very long time. Uh. And that is

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<v Speaker 1>the habit of using animals as models for humans, as

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<v Speaker 1>stand ins for humans when we want to test new things,

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<v Speaker 1>find out new things about ourselves, like will this kill me?

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<v Speaker 1>Let's put it on an animal, right, does the heart

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<v Speaker 1>or the lungs actually pump blood around the body. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>cut a dog open and find out that we've been

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<v Speaker 1>doing it for a very long time. Yeah, And this

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<v Speaker 1>article came with its own own intro story, which was

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<v Speaker 1>pretty interesting. I thought, Yeah, we haven't done one of

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<v Speaker 1>those in a long time. They used to be like

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<v Speaker 1>a standard aspect of this. Yeah. Now we just babble

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<v Speaker 1>the yeah. Yeah, we just share what's going on in

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<v Speaker 1>our lives or day pretty much. Sorry, everybody. It must

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<v Speaker 1>be a real letdown that I think about it. Should

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<v Speaker 1>we do this though? All right, Well, let's go back

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<v Speaker 1>in time, back to seven and there was a company

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<v Speaker 1>called a pharma company called S. E. Matson Gil out

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<v Speaker 1>of Tennessee, and they had a great, I almost want

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<v Speaker 1>to say, wonder drug. Uh. There was an antibiot antibiotic

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<v Speaker 1>that worked really well in its powdered form, and people

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<v Speaker 1>started clamoring and said, we love this stuff, but sure

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<v Speaker 1>it would be great if we could put it as

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<v Speaker 1>a as a drop under my tongue instead. Right, I

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<v Speaker 1>like liquids. I'm not big on powders like that weirdo

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<v Speaker 1>Richard Petty who just takes goodies powder like me. Love

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<v Speaker 1>that dude. That's my go to. It's got caffeine. That's

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<v Speaker 1>what helps. Yeah, for migraines too. Really, caffeine is a

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<v Speaker 1>big one. Yeah, Emily can't do them, but that it's

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<v Speaker 1>my I couldn't either. It's my hangover cure. I see that,

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<v Speaker 1>I say that out loud. Did Yeah it works, wonders.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought, bloody Mary's where you're hangover again? I'm not.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not a hair of the dogger. That's what it

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<v Speaker 1>was inventive for, you know. Yeah, all right, I'm getting

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<v Speaker 1>a self check. I apologis. Uh. So they decided we

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<v Speaker 1>need a liquid form of this. What was the name

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<v Speaker 1>of the drug, uh, sul fannel man. I just had

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<v Speaker 1>it sulfanlu minde yes or stulf vanillamide. I think sulfanla

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<v Speaker 1>mind Okay, that's how I would say it if I

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<v Speaker 1>were in nineteen thirties seven Tennessee, and well, uh, they

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<v Speaker 1>had a chemist named Harold Cole Watkins who went to

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<v Speaker 1>the lab and said, all right, let's dissolve this stuff

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<v Speaker 1>and something called uh dieth eileen glycolthlen that one I

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<v Speaker 1>know worked pretty well. So they added a little raspberry

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<v Speaker 1>flavoring to make it palatable, and they said, it smells

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<v Speaker 1>pretty good, tastes pretty good, looks pretty good. Let's sell it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and they did. They sold a bunch of it, and

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<v Speaker 1>just like one one month after mixing up a batch

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<v Speaker 1>of the stuff, they had six thirty three shipments all

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<v Speaker 1>over of the country because there was a huge demand

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<v Speaker 1>for this, I mean, like syl sylfanum I was already

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<v Speaker 1>an established drug. The idea of it being in some

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<v Speaker 1>sort of palatable form that was gangbusters. Everybody had syphilis

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<v Speaker 1>that they needed to take care of back then, and

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of thing would help and if it could

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<v Speaker 1>be a pleasant experience, well then great. And then uh

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<v Speaker 1>that was September when they made their first shipment. Right

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<v Speaker 1>by October, middle of October October eleventh, to be specific,

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<v Speaker 1>a group of doctors in Tulsa contacted the a m A,

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<v Speaker 1>the American Medical Association, and said, um, we think there's

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<v Speaker 1>something really wrong with this new mass and guild product,

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<v Speaker 1>which they called Sulfanila Mind Elixir or a lixer of

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<v Speaker 1>sulfanal of mind. Um, we think it's killing people actually

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<v Speaker 1>and killing them in one of the worst ways imaginable. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't a just go sleepy time. Now, it was

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<v Speaker 1>a pretty bad death. Right. You're writhing in agony, you're

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<v Speaker 1>probably puking your guts up. You're just you're dying from

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<v Speaker 1>from being poisoned. So the A M A got ahold

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<v Speaker 1>of some off and they said, you know what, the

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<v Speaker 1>actual drug is fine, but this, uh, the solution we

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<v Speaker 1>mix it with is the culprit. It is pure poison.

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<v Speaker 1>Who knew? Nobody knew. And the reason why no one

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<v Speaker 1>knew was because mass and Gill and Cole Watkins. Um there,

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<v Speaker 1>Harold Cole Watkins and his his group of chemists were

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<v Speaker 1>not obligated to test this stuff out. Yeah, well people

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<v Speaker 1>knew though. That was the one frustrating thing is studies

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<v Speaker 1>out that said this stuff was poison, and I guess

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<v Speaker 1>they just didn't read them right. They didn't research the literature,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a big deal. Um, But they also didn't

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<v Speaker 1>test it out on human or animal ahead of time. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And they again they just looked at the tech or

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<v Speaker 1>the appearance, the smell, a little bit of the taste,

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<v Speaker 1>but no one took a full dose of this apparently,

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<v Speaker 1>and um, people died. I think a hundred people died

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<v Speaker 1>in fifteen states in about a month or so before

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<v Speaker 1>they could get um the shipment's back. Yeah. I think

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<v Speaker 1>the FDA, the barely born f D A. Um, this

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<v Speaker 1>is one of its first actions was going and getting

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<v Speaker 1>this stuff. Yeah. And the president of the company said, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we haven't broken any laws because I guess

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<v Speaker 1>there weren't laws on the books at the time. And

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<v Speaker 1>the head chemist, um, very sadly killed himself because of this. Yeah. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>like the story goes from bad to worse and um,

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<v Speaker 1>that was pretty Japanese of him. Yeah you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>we did. We do a full episode on that on

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<v Speaker 1>suicide on I mean Hardy Cary. But it had another

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<v Speaker 1>name too, right, Yeah, did we do that or did

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<v Speaker 1>we just mention it? I'm sure we just mentioned okay,

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<v Speaker 1>um yeah, I think in the Japanese Stragglers and probably

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<v Speaker 1>the samurai Yeah, and the revenge one. Yeah. Boy, it's

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<v Speaker 1>sorry to keep track these days, yeah, really really is.

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<v Speaker 1>So this led to a night Congress in the US

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<v Speaker 1>enacted the FDA Cosmetic Act, which said that you know what,

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<v Speaker 1>you need to test these drugs on animals, and that

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<v Speaker 1>therein sort of started, at least in the US, the

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<v Speaker 1>official like decree that you can and should do this, right,

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<v Speaker 1>But it has been going on a long time before that,

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<v Speaker 1>or Buddy Galen who we've talked about before, well even

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<v Speaker 1>further back than galen Um, if you look at the Greeks,

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<v Speaker 1>at least as far back as about five c UM.

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<v Speaker 1>The ancient Greeks were using animals for testing, poking around

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<v Speaker 1>figuring out how to how the human body works, and

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<v Speaker 1>there was this idea that there was an analogy between

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<v Speaker 1>all animals that humans shared like a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>same physiology of all animals. And there was a great

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<v Speaker 1>disagreement among the Greeks in particular about whether that was true.

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<v Speaker 1>But it didn't stop guys like Aristotle Um and uh Aerosistratus, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and Hippocrates as well from basically poking around inside live animals,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the the where the term for animal testing

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<v Speaker 1>came from. The other terms vivisection. Vivisection is cutting something

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<v Speaker 1>open while it's still alive. Yes, specifically an animal, right

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<v Speaker 1>or is that no, you can vivisect humans, yeah, because

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<v Speaker 1>dissection occurs after death. Vivisection is like cutting open I

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<v Speaker 1>think technically surgery would be. But the idea behind vivisection

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<v Speaker 1>is that there's this is just for experimentation actually not

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<v Speaker 1>like let me heal that oregan right there, right, which,

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<v Speaker 1>by the way, go back and listen to our human

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<v Speaker 1>experimentation episode. That was a great one. I remember that one.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh So flash forward a bit to second century Rome

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<v Speaker 1>where our friend Galen, who we just talked about him

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<v Speaker 1>in a podcast Our lives stuff in UK and Ireland,

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<v Speaker 1>that's right, which hopefully people will hear him. Yes. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>he was a medical specialist and he said, you know what,

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<v Speaker 1>I going to do a demonstration in the public. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>gonna rent a hall. Yeah, basically, I'm gonna get this

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<v Speaker 1>pig and I'm gonna prove that we are all a

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<v Speaker 1>bundle of nerves by snipping certain nerves of this pig.

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<v Speaker 1>You want to see him not squeal anymore, watch me

0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.160
<v Speaker 1>snip this nerve. And uh, it was all planned in

0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:23.640
<v Speaker 1>this philosophers, pretty popular guy. He had punching cookies out.

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<v Speaker 1>He was really excited for this day. Philosopher that was

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<v Speaker 1>in attendance named Alexander. Uh Demascenus, Yeah, Demastinus, one of

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<v Speaker 1>those two. He Um said, you know what this is,

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<v Speaker 1>bs Um, doesn't prove a thing. And in fact, none

0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.000
<v Speaker 1>of these demonstrations prove anything, because that's a pig and

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<v Speaker 1>we're humans. Why are you bothering? Right? And apparently the

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<v Speaker 1>Romans had adopted from the Greeks the idea that empirical

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<v Speaker 1>evidence didn't really prove anything. If you saw something, it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't mean it was true, right, which is a weird philosophy.

0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.920
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to understand a little more. I'm sure there's

0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.280
<v Speaker 1>a lot more to it than that, but that's just

0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.400
<v Speaker 1>like such a completely radically different paradigm from what we

0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.680
<v Speaker 1>have now. Um, the paradigm of science we're seeing is indeed,

0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.559
<v Speaker 1>believing that it requires empirical evidence. Used to be the opposite,

0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.800
<v Speaker 1>And that was Alexander's big objection, like, hey man, you

0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:20.400
<v Speaker 1>can cut that pig's nerve all day long, and sure

0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:22.120
<v Speaker 1>I saw it, and sure it had that effect, but

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't prove anything. And Galen was like, I hate you,

0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:29.360
<v Speaker 1>I hate that idea, I hate Aristotle. I'm leaving because

0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:34.440
<v Speaker 1>Aristotle was apparently somebody who said, Yeah, I've I've poked

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<v Speaker 1>around in a pig or two in my time, and

0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:38.920
<v Speaker 1>I've concluded that the heart and that the brain is

0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.320
<v Speaker 1>the center. This idea that a nerve connected to the

0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:45.920
<v Speaker 1>brain could control anything is hogwash, if you'll forgive the punt.

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<v Speaker 1>Aristotle is just a big dummy, the dumbest of them all. So, um,

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<v Speaker 1>Galen did, in fact say I'm leaving. He said, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>taking my medical bag and I'm going home. And then

0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.480
<v Speaker 1>everyone there was like, boa, I really want to see

0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:04.000
<v Speaker 1>this pig get cut apart. Please don't leave. He said, okay,

0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:08.160
<v Speaker 1>you guys, I'll do it. You twisted my arm, came

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<v Speaker 1>back in. Uh, performed the experiment in the demonstration, and

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<v Speaker 1>this was the one of the first recorded um examples

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<v Speaker 1>of experimenting on animals for science. Yeah, so the ball

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<v Speaker 1>was rolling. Yeah, And um, I don't know if Galen

0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.840
<v Speaker 1>hadn't done it first. And he he obviously hadn't done

0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:29.520
<v Speaker 1>it first because he came a few hundred years after

0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.679
<v Speaker 1>Aristotle who had done that. But if Aristotle hadn't done it,

0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.200
<v Speaker 1>eventually somebody who was curious enough would have grabbed a

0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.240
<v Speaker 1>dog or a chicken or something and just cut it

0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.040
<v Speaker 1>open and started looking at what was inside. Yeah, you know,

0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.200
<v Speaker 1>like it would have happened, but these are the people

0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.400
<v Speaker 1>who are recorded doing it first. Uh. Go forward in

0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.480
<v Speaker 1>time a bit to the late nineteenth century, and there

0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:54.280
<v Speaker 1>was a microbiologist from Germany, Robert Coke, and he got

0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.640
<v Speaker 1>he got some some anthrax. He got some blood from

0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.840
<v Speaker 1>cows killed by anthrax. Started looking at it under a

0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.080
<v Speaker 1>microscope and said, you know what, something in there looks

0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:08.040
<v Speaker 1>funny to me. That might be the anthrax. So let

0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.240
<v Speaker 1>me take that and put it in a mouse and

0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.800
<v Speaker 1>see what happens. The mouse died, and he said, I'm

0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.640
<v Speaker 1>onto something here. I'm pretty sure that was the anthrax. Uh,

0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.480
<v Speaker 1>A big deal. It was a big deal. Again, using

0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:24.839
<v Speaker 1>an animal to experiment in order to further human understanding

0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.920
<v Speaker 1>and protect human health in life, that's right. And those

0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.760
<v Speaker 1>are the big eats that people have used animals for. Yeah,

0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.760
<v Speaker 1>and that was actual, like medically, let me try and

0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.240
<v Speaker 1>cure a disease. Yeah, not like the early guys like whoa,

0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.640
<v Speaker 1>what is this? To what happens if I sever this? Yeah?

0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:49.720
<v Speaker 1>But it it went on my ancient Greek impression Um.

0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:51.360
<v Speaker 1>The point I was trying to make, I guess was

0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.200
<v Speaker 1>later on in the nineteen fifties, people started, and notably

0:13:55.240 --> 0:14:01.960
<v Speaker 1>this Russian Dmitri h Bell Jeff, started using research on animals,

0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:09.679
<v Speaker 1>not necessarily for curing diseases, but to study behavior. Right. Yeah,

0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.040
<v Speaker 1>we talked about them in our Animal Domestication episode. Yeah,

0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.719
<v Speaker 1>so what he he had the great idea for these

0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.320
<v Speaker 1>cute little silver foxes. He's like, I might like one

0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:20.640
<v Speaker 1>of those is a pet. I have a niece who

0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:22.960
<v Speaker 1>would love one of those. Man, have you seen those

0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.520
<v Speaker 1>fox videos or then crying and walk around crying well

0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:28.800
<v Speaker 1>or calling or whatever. And they shake their little tail

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.120
<v Speaker 1>when you scratch their belly, and I don't know if

0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 1>I've seen that one. It's very cute. It makes sort

0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:38.040
<v Speaker 1>of like a little purring, little chirpy purr and wiggle

0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.880
<v Speaker 1>their tail and wag their tail, and it's just like, oh, man,

0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.920
<v Speaker 1>you're the perfect combination of dog and cats. Foxes are

0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.520
<v Speaker 1>pretty cute, so we want to team them. Well, that's

0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.200
<v Speaker 1>exactly what he did too, And he thought, I know

0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:54.240
<v Speaker 1>that domestication usually takes many, many, many years, but let

0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 1>me see if I can do it in like years

0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.400
<v Speaker 1>and Chuck. Speaking of behavioral studies, one of the most

0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 1>famous of all using animals was Pavlov's dogs, And I

0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.360
<v Speaker 1>was researching it and I had no idea. Pavlov didn't

0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.960
<v Speaker 1>just like bring a bell for his dogs to make

0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:15.040
<v Speaker 1>him salivate. He surgically altered his dogs. He went and

0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.000
<v Speaker 1>got their salivary glands and put them on the outside

0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.520
<v Speaker 1>of their faces so that he could collect saliva samples

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.600
<v Speaker 1>more easily. And he created remember that cow in Athens

0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.720
<v Speaker 1>that had a porthole in it, same thing for the dogs,

0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:33.240
<v Speaker 1>so that he could collect gastric juices digestive juices for

0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.280
<v Speaker 1>samples as well. So what you're saying is that he

0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:40.200
<v Speaker 1>was a crazy madman. Yeah, yeah, I guess so. I

0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.560
<v Speaker 1>think the larger point here is that humans have been

0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.600
<v Speaker 1>just grabbing animals or even breeding animals, for the sole

0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.360
<v Speaker 1>purpose of using them to understand things a little more, right,

0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:55.080
<v Speaker 1>whether it be cutting them open to see how anatomy works,

0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.800
<v Speaker 1>to using them as um as for medical experiments, to

0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.640
<v Speaker 1>de termined that um anthrax is actually blood borne and

0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:07.480
<v Speaker 1>can kill you. Um two behavioral studies, right, And we

0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.360
<v Speaker 1>should point out that at work he was able to

0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.920
<v Speaker 1>weed out and by weed out, I mean coal, and

0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.520
<v Speaker 1>by col we mean kill, and by kill we mean

0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.440
<v Speaker 1>probably break their necks. Yeah. I think that's one of

0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.520
<v Speaker 1>the big problems with with this talking about this stuff

0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.920
<v Speaker 1>is so many euphemisms are used, like you just you

0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.600
<v Speaker 1>just demonstrated so Um. What he did was he was

0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:34.840
<v Speaker 1>able to weed out the foxes that weren't his tame,

0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.400
<v Speaker 1>and eventually he ended up with the fox that was,

0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.880
<v Speaker 1>by all accounts domesticated, a nice little pet. It said, Dmitri.

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.640
<v Speaker 1>You and it's not just animals, um, that are cute

0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.760
<v Speaker 1>that we contame. Um. Animals and what most people would

0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.960
<v Speaker 1>say are roughly the lower end of the spectrum as

0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.360
<v Speaker 1>far as life is concerned, are very frequently used, like

0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:02.200
<v Speaker 1>um nematodes, fruit flies, UM. They come into use largely

0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:07.240
<v Speaker 1>because they have some similar processes. Like if you're studying

0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:11.040
<v Speaker 1>a very ancient process or a very ancient part of

0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:15.000
<v Speaker 1>the body like um insulin regulation, that you're gonna find

0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.119
<v Speaker 1>it throughout the animal kingdom. It's gonna be pretty widespread.

0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.920
<v Speaker 1>So the idea is, if you can track insulin regulation

0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:26.240
<v Speaker 1>and a fruit fly, you could conceivably extrapolate those findings

0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:30.560
<v Speaker 1>onto a human and a humans insulin regulation. And the

0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.879
<v Speaker 1>advantage of a fruit fly or a nematode is that

0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.760
<v Speaker 1>they're really easy to breed and they reproduce very quickly.

0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.320
<v Speaker 1>So if you're like Dmitri BALLETV and you're studying foxes,

0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.920
<v Speaker 1>it took him twenty five years to go through twenty generations,

0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.440
<v Speaker 1>it would take you roughly a month, I would guess

0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.000
<v Speaker 1>to go through about twenty generations of fruit flies. So

0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:55.919
<v Speaker 1>therefore you can track mutations much more quickly, much more inexpensively.

0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:00.840
<v Speaker 1>So UM, the fruit flies, the humatodes, other again lesser

0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:05.200
<v Speaker 1>life forms UM have been used extensively in medical testing

0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.600
<v Speaker 1>as well. And they and they count, they qualify. It's

0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:12.400
<v Speaker 1>a live organism that's being used for experimentation purposes. Yeah,

0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:14.840
<v Speaker 1>and uh, it kind of depends on what you're trying,

0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.399
<v Speaker 1>what your aim is, what your goal is, to what

0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.200
<v Speaker 1>animal you do use, because you can't just use any

0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.280
<v Speaker 1>animal for anything. UM. And here's a fun fact. I

0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:28.080
<v Speaker 1>did not know that the armadillo is an animal that

0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.000
<v Speaker 1>can actually get Hanson's disease a k A. Leprosy. We

0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:32.960
<v Speaker 1>knew that we talked about in the leprosy episode. I

0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.280
<v Speaker 1>don't remember mentioning the armadillo. I am scared to death

0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.960
<v Speaker 1>of armadillos now because of really oh yeah, when I

0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.159
<v Speaker 1>see it, I just look at him like leprosy. You

0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.600
<v Speaker 1>don't hug him on any longer, you know, and like

0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.280
<v Speaker 1>you'll see him on the side of the road, you know,

0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.000
<v Speaker 1>hit by a car or something like that. Texas, I

0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.400
<v Speaker 1>always double check, um. Well here in Georgia too, Yeah,

0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.200
<v Speaker 1>a little bit. Um. I always check to make sure

0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.960
<v Speaker 1>that my air recirculator is on when I pass them by.

0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:00.280
<v Speaker 1>That like the leprosy didn't waft into my car as

0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:04.560
<v Speaker 1>I drove past the roadkill that I was damaged by

0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.760
<v Speaker 1>the leprosy episode. Uh well, they actually have the perfect

0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:15.000
<v Speaker 1>body temperature to allow study on vaccines for leprosy. Um

0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.240
<v Speaker 1>And speaking of by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt you,

0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:21.720
<v Speaker 1>but I just found out last night that koalas Carrie

0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.840
<v Speaker 1>chlamydia really and transmitted sexually and can die from it.

0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, yeah, and are actually partially endangered in some

0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:33.320
<v Speaker 1>ways because they have chlamydia. M think about that next

0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.760
<v Speaker 1>time you want to hug from that cute little critter,

0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, well, they'll tear your face off too. Uh.

0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.040
<v Speaker 1>Should we take a little break here, all right, let's

0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:44.880
<v Speaker 1>take a break and we're kind of we're gonna come

0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.880
<v Speaker 1>back and talk more about the different animals used and

0:19:49.040 --> 0:20:10.040
<v Speaker 1>why Chuck. Before we get back to I want to

0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.720
<v Speaker 1>say this is UM this this episode and the other

0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:18.159
<v Speaker 1>one that's coming out Thursday. Yeah, and they're kind of

0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:22.240
<v Speaker 1>done in conjunction with these guys, UM Joe and Tim

0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:26.880
<v Speaker 1>who run a site called primer Stories dot com and

0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:31.560
<v Speaker 1>UM they do seasons. They're like animators, um web dudes,

0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:35.640
<v Speaker 1>and it shows they know what they're doing and they've

0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.800
<v Speaker 1>basically taken They'll they'll take essays. I wrote an essay,

0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:40.920
<v Speaker 1>then they take it and they break it up into

0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.720
<v Speaker 1>chunks and they animate it. Right, so as you're going

0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:48.880
<v Speaker 1>scrolling down, you're you're reading, but you're also experiencing, um,

0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:54.000
<v Speaker 1>the the art, the animation that really kind of brings

0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.679
<v Speaker 1>out the ideas of each one. It's really really neat site.

0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:02.920
<v Speaker 1>They they contacted us after our San Francisco show last year,

0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, early this year, and UM, they said, hey,

0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:07.879
<v Speaker 1>do you want to do one of these? And I

0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.840
<v Speaker 1>went and looked and I was amazed and said, yes,

0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.880
<v Speaker 1>I totally do. So you can go, UM check out

0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:16.560
<v Speaker 1>the s A I wrote at a primer stories dot

0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:18.840
<v Speaker 1>com slash s y s K and that one is

0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:22.240
<v Speaker 1>the one we're releasing after this one. Correct, Well, it

0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.679
<v Speaker 1>ties into both. It's it's kind of this essay about

0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:30.080
<v Speaker 1>UM humans changing attitude toward animal rights. But it was

0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.480
<v Speaker 1>fun to do and they're cool. They're cool dudes for sure,

0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.399
<v Speaker 1>and I like what they're doing. UM. This is the

0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:40.879
<v Speaker 1>fourth season, fourth season, nice plug, nice work. Thanks all right.

0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:44.960
<v Speaker 1>So we were talking about UM using different animals and

0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:49.439
<v Speaker 1>how if it's you know, fruit fly or a nematode,

0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.760
<v Speaker 1>people don't get their hackles up too much. No, it's true. UM,

0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.200
<v Speaker 1>if it is a rat or a mouse, people start

0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:59.320
<v Speaker 1>getting their hackles up a little more. UM and mice

0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:04.119
<v Speaker 1>are very famously used. A lot um of our genes

0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.399
<v Speaker 1>overlap with this mouse. UM specifically this one, which is

0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:15.000
<v Speaker 1>it mouse or amuse genus mice mices genus mice, So

0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.080
<v Speaker 1>that's the one that they use most often that has

0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:23.000
<v Speaker 1>the overlap UH, and their cell structure and organ organization

0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:27.160
<v Speaker 1>are basically the same as ours, so UM they do

0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:29.199
<v Speaker 1>a lot of testing with these mice as a result,

0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:34.240
<v Speaker 1>everything from you know, disease and stuff to genetics. Two

0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:38.280
<v Speaker 1>behavioral that they kind of run the gamut right on mice, Yeah,

0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.760
<v Speaker 1>for sure, and from that point up they tend to,

0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:43.720
<v Speaker 1>I think, run the gamut. Some are a little more

0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:47.879
<v Speaker 1>specific than others, like beagles apparently. Yeah, really come in

0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:54.680
<v Speaker 1>handy when you're testing prostate cancer um or muscular dystrophy both. Yeah. Um,

0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:58.960
<v Speaker 1>because they can contract those or develop those, so they

0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:03.200
<v Speaker 1>make great and mole models. Yeah. The these cats because

0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:07.080
<v Speaker 1>their site and they're hearing and their balance. I have

0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:11.600
<v Speaker 1>to ask, how are you feeling right now about this episode? Well,

0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:15.440
<v Speaker 1>what do you mean like about the topic? Uh? Because

0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:17.480
<v Speaker 1>you're holding it together really well? You mean I'm not

0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:22.760
<v Speaker 1>crying yet? Yeah? Yeah, I've checked my emotions out of

0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:26.800
<v Speaker 1>this one. I think this two parts sweet will get

0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:31.720
<v Speaker 1>points across. I'm just relying on that. I'll get weepy

0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:37.200
<v Speaker 1>later tonight. Do you remember the Secret of Nim? Yeah? Sure,

0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:39.440
<v Speaker 1>I had forgotten what the secret was, or I don't

0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:41.320
<v Speaker 1>think it ever dawned on me what the secret really

0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:43.400
<v Speaker 1>wasn't I went back and was reading about the those

0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:47.240
<v Speaker 1>were mice, right, there were rats and the secret of Nim.

0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:50.320
<v Speaker 1>Well we probably shouldn't say, would that be a spoiler? Yeah?

0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:53.000
<v Speaker 1>I think so it's like the spoiler, like that's in

0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:55.560
<v Speaker 1>the title. What if the secret of nim was that

0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:58.520
<v Speaker 1>Bruce Willis in the Sixth Sense was dead all along?

0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:02.280
<v Speaker 1>You know what I think was an even Wait is

0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.399
<v Speaker 1>that a spoiler? Yeah? I think it was. It was

0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:08.280
<v Speaker 1>years ago at least. If you haven't seen the sixth

0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:11.879
<v Speaker 1>Cents by now, t s for you go see the others,

0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:15.560
<v Speaker 1>though a lot of people haven't seen the others. Sixth Sense,

0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:19.200
<v Speaker 1>the one thing cool Kidman, that was good Man. That

0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:25.320
<v Speaker 1>was great, very atmospheric Moody film, that one. And the Orphanage. Yeah, yeah,

0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:28.840
<v Speaker 1>it's fantastic. The Orphanage is maybe even the better of

0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:34.840
<v Speaker 1>the two. Yeah. Yeah. Uh So monkeys primates, um, well,

0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:38.879
<v Speaker 1>non human primates, we should say, specifically, the maccaque monkey

0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:41.880
<v Speaker 1>is used a lot because there, uh there's a lot

0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 1>of them, and they're widely distributed and uh have a

0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.680
<v Speaker 1>robust population. So you know, they made a lot of

0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:53.680
<v Speaker 1>advances into neuroscience thanks to the maccaque monkey. And then, um,

0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:57.000
<v Speaker 1>there's some animals that will just do because they contain flesh,

0:24:57.280 --> 0:25:00.320
<v Speaker 1>like pigs and goats are used a lot, and what's

0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:03.879
<v Speaker 1>called live tissue trauma training, which is exactly what it

0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:08.639
<v Speaker 1>sounds like. Um, it's used to train battlefield medics in

0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:13.719
<v Speaker 1>the military. Uh, and the Coast Guard apparently, and um

0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:19.439
<v Speaker 1>the animals innesthetized deeply to like surgical plane levels and

0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:26.800
<v Speaker 1>um shot or blown up or um just weird stuff

0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:30.879
<v Speaker 1>done to it to stimulate a battlefield trauma so that

0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:35.160
<v Speaker 1>medic can do live what it's called live tissue trauma training,

0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:37.560
<v Speaker 1>so they can save a life on the battlefield. Yeah,

0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:40.920
<v Speaker 1>but then they euthanize the they kill the animal afterward.

0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:43.600
<v Speaker 1>But yes, on the battlefield. That's the whole I mean,

0:25:43.640 --> 0:25:46.280
<v Speaker 1>that's the whole point there. And they're saying there's no

0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:50.000
<v Speaker 1>substitute for that, well, which is sort of the what

0:25:50.119 --> 0:25:54.080
<v Speaker 1>they scientists and doctors say. Well, well we'll get into

0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:57.400
<v Speaker 1>all that, okay. Uh. One thing we should mention though,

0:25:57.440 --> 0:26:00.600
<v Speaker 1>is that if you look for labels say this was

0:26:00.640 --> 0:26:03.560
<v Speaker 1>not tested on animals. Uh, it's sort of like the

0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:08.800
<v Speaker 1>whole free range chicken myth. Um, it's not exactly what

0:26:08.840 --> 0:26:12.399
<v Speaker 1>you think it is, right, Well, free range chickens, it

0:26:12.440 --> 0:26:15.200
<v Speaker 1>doesn't have to have like a porch attached to the structure.

0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:17.040
<v Speaker 1>They don't even have to have access to it, and

0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:19.399
<v Speaker 1>you just have to have the door open so they

0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:22.399
<v Speaker 1>can leave if they want. Um. But you have people

0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:24.919
<v Speaker 1>have images I think of these chickens running around the fields,

0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:28.040
<v Speaker 1>idyllic countryside. Yeah, but they don't they they're in the

0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.040
<v Speaker 1>barn where the food is and they kind of don't leave.

0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:32.320
<v Speaker 1>But the doors they are, so they're technically free range

0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:35.680
<v Speaker 1>unless something's changed. When I worked in the chicken industry,

0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:39.000
<v Speaker 1>those sad that sad year or whatever it was, I

0:26:39.040 --> 0:26:42.159
<v Speaker 1>would guess absolutely nothing's changed. Probably so, But if you

0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:45.119
<v Speaker 1>look for labels to say cruelty free or not tested

0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:48.240
<v Speaker 1>on animals, it may not mean what you think because

0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:52.560
<v Speaker 1>technically there's no oversight on a label like that, and

0:26:52.600 --> 0:26:56.359
<v Speaker 1>it could mean that we did not in the final

0:26:56.440 --> 0:26:59.959
<v Speaker 1>product of this cosmetic tested on animals. We didn't tell

0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:04.000
<v Speaker 1>us this rouge, but all the raw ingredients that went

0:27:04.080 --> 0:27:07.960
<v Speaker 1>into this from our suppliers were tested on animals. Or

0:27:08.200 --> 0:27:11.200
<v Speaker 1>back in the sixties or seventies, they tested these same

0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:13.919
<v Speaker 1>ingredients on animals, and there's no need for us to

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:17.679
<v Speaker 1>test them again. So now we can say not tested

0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:21.400
<v Speaker 1>on animals even though these things, right, these things were

0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:25.480
<v Speaker 1>tested on animals years back. UM, And actually China has

0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:29.320
<v Speaker 1>changed things recently, as um, the West was getting further

0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:33.120
<v Speaker 1>and further away. I think the EU banned imports of

0:27:33.119 --> 0:27:38.240
<v Speaker 1>of anything that have been tested on animals cosmetics wise. Um,

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:41.600
<v Speaker 1>and China has gone the opposite direction. It is mandated

0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:45.360
<v Speaker 1>that anything important into China cosmetics wise must have been

0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:49.119
<v Speaker 1>tested on animals. So kind of reset things here in

0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:51.239
<v Speaker 1>the West because there's a lot of Western companies like

0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:54.320
<v Speaker 1>I want in on that Chinese market, and China saying well,

0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:56.919
<v Speaker 1>you got to test your like, the whole thing on

0:27:57.160 --> 0:28:02.919
<v Speaker 1>animals before it comes in here. Interest thing. Uh So

0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:07.840
<v Speaker 1>here's the deal. Over the twentieth century, Um, we've made

0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:10.719
<v Speaker 1>a lot of medical advances. Life expectancy, this is kind

0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:14.280
<v Speaker 1>of a neat stat has gone up about three months

0:28:15.160 --> 0:28:19.240
<v Speaker 1>per year in the twentieth century, largely due to stuff

0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:23.800
<v Speaker 1>like this testing for disease. Well, yeah, people who are

0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:27.480
<v Speaker 1>advocates of animal testing say that would not have happened

0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:32.440
<v Speaker 1>maybe at all, had we not used animals. And life

0:28:32.480 --> 0:28:37.920
<v Speaker 1>expectancy was extended three months a year from I think

0:28:37.960 --> 0:28:40.600
<v Speaker 1>like eighteen forty to two thousand six or something like

0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:45.520
<v Speaker 1>that every year. UM. And and that was advanced by

0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:50.280
<v Speaker 1>finding things like antibiotics and vaccines, and all of the

0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 1>things that um not just extend the human life, but

0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:59.720
<v Speaker 1>make the the extended years more enjoyable as well more healthy. UM.

0:28:59.760 --> 0:29:04.520
<v Speaker 1>And that's a huge rallying cry for people who point

0:29:04.560 --> 0:29:07.360
<v Speaker 1>to animal testing and say this is this is necessary

0:29:07.400 --> 0:29:09.760
<v Speaker 1>and has to continue. And actually there is a two

0:29:09.760 --> 0:29:13.720
<v Speaker 1>thousand eleven poll of biomedical researchers by Nature, which is

0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:16.480
<v Speaker 1>no slouch of a scientific journal, and they found that

0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:21.720
<v Speaker 1>agreed with the the sentence use of animals in research

0:29:21.880 --> 0:29:26.800
<v Speaker 1>is essential. There's two eleven. So that's not that sentiment

0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:30.640
<v Speaker 1>isn't going anywhere. No, I think that's probably pretty much accurate. Today.

0:29:31.520 --> 0:29:33.720
<v Speaker 1>On the other side of the coin, you have animal

0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:37.120
<v Speaker 1>rights activists and and even if you're not an activist,

0:29:37.200 --> 0:29:41.080
<v Speaker 1>just your average Joe on the street or Jane UM

0:29:41.280 --> 0:29:43.960
<v Speaker 1>might say, you know what, this is unethical. Uh does

0:29:44.040 --> 0:29:47.360
<v Speaker 1>a lot of harm, it's wasteful, and there are better

0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:49.920
<v Speaker 1>ways to do it. In fact, some people say it's

0:29:49.920 --> 0:29:53.320
<v Speaker 1>not even doing the job that it should be doing.

0:29:53.680 --> 0:29:56.960
<v Speaker 1>For instance, Uh, they can cure cancer and mice, and

0:29:57.040 --> 0:29:58.400
<v Speaker 1>we have been able to do this for a while,

0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:03.240
<v Speaker 1>can't cure it in humans. UM. Of the HIV AIDS

0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:08.240
<v Speaker 1>vaccines that were tested uh successfully on primates, they don't

0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:10.360
<v Speaker 1>work on humans, and one of them may have even

0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:15.320
<v Speaker 1>made humans more susceptible. Yeah yeah, so it's uh, you know,

0:30:15.360 --> 0:30:18.840
<v Speaker 1>there's two very strong sides to this argument. The f

0:30:18.960 --> 0:30:22.200
<v Speaker 1>d A has said that nine tenths of all drugs

0:30:22.200 --> 0:30:27.440
<v Speaker 1>and development don't work in humans after they worked in

0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:30.280
<v Speaker 1>animals because you just can't tell, right, And actually I

0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:32.760
<v Speaker 1>looked that up there. It's it's a little bit of

0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:38.200
<v Speaker 1>a fallacy. It's more like fail in clinical trials. But

0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:42.960
<v Speaker 1>that's all pre clinical trials that so not just animal

0:30:42.960 --> 0:30:46.000
<v Speaker 1>testing but also non animal testing where it passed that

0:30:46.160 --> 0:30:49.480
<v Speaker 1>the first stages when it made it to clinical trials,

0:30:49.480 --> 0:30:54.080
<v Speaker 1>of all drugs failed to work or actually harmed humans.

0:30:54.360 --> 0:30:56.640
<v Speaker 1>There's another side of the coin, though, too, Chuck, how

0:30:56.640 --> 0:30:59.080
<v Speaker 1>many sides are on this coin. There's it's like one

0:30:59.120 --> 0:31:01.200
<v Speaker 1>of those hundreds to die that you see a D

0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:04.360
<v Speaker 1>and D but never know how to use. Um. There

0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:08.360
<v Speaker 1>are probably a lot of drugs out there that harmed

0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:13.120
<v Speaker 1>animals and were shelved right then didn't make it into

0:31:13.120 --> 0:31:15.520
<v Speaker 1>clinical trials because the animals were harmed, that may not

0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:18.760
<v Speaker 1>have harmed humans that actually could have cured things. So

0:31:18.800 --> 0:31:20.960
<v Speaker 1>there's people saying no, we we we need to be

0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:25.120
<v Speaker 1>testing on humans because we're using this for humans. That's

0:31:25.200 --> 0:31:30.600
<v Speaker 1>that's what some some prob I guess protesters against animal

0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:33.960
<v Speaker 1>testing would say. And then, um, another thing that I

0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:37.080
<v Speaker 1>saw is that you you tend to think like, Okay, well,

0:31:37.480 --> 0:31:41.240
<v Speaker 1>it's advancing science, so I can't really get in the

0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:46.680
<v Speaker 1>way of that. But there are One of the critiques

0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:50.479
<v Speaker 1>of that argument is not all the science is is good,

0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:53.400
<v Speaker 1>that's being done and like a lot of animal lives.

0:31:53.400 --> 0:31:58.400
<v Speaker 1>If you agree that animal lives are are valuable, and

0:31:58.760 --> 0:32:01.920
<v Speaker 1>but that use seeing an animal life to advance scientific

0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:05.640
<v Speaker 1>understanding to protect human health and life is worthy, it's

0:32:05.680 --> 0:32:09.600
<v Speaker 1>a worthy use of an animal, then that you would

0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:12.520
<v Speaker 1>also probably agree with the idea that wasting the animal's

0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:17.240
<v Speaker 1>life and scientific testing is unforgivable. Right. So there was

0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:19.880
<v Speaker 1>a survey in two thousand nine p l OS one

0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:23.080
<v Speaker 1>Proceedings of the Library of Science one, the Journal of

0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:27.200
<v Speaker 1>two one Animal Studies. I found that forty one percent

0:32:27.360 --> 0:32:30.680
<v Speaker 1>failed to even state hypothesis are objective to the tests

0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:36.440
<v Speaker 1>umtent failed to describe the statistic methods used uh in

0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:41.840
<v Speaker 1>the study, didn't randomize scent, didn't use blinding, and those

0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:45.680
<v Speaker 1>are basic scientific efforts that you have to make in

0:32:45.760 --> 0:32:50.160
<v Speaker 1>any experiment, right, those are very basic um, which means

0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:53.000
<v Speaker 1>that those things were wasted, which means those animals lives

0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:56.440
<v Speaker 1>were wasted. And the suggestion is is that a lot

0:32:56.520 --> 0:33:01.160
<v Speaker 1>of publicly funded science is just not very good science

0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:05.200
<v Speaker 1>and it's wasting the lives of the animals involved. Well,

0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:08.560
<v Speaker 1>that's sad. I'm starting to get emotional. Okay, all right,

0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:11.280
<v Speaker 1>let's take a break then and we'll come back and

0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:14.480
<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit about our old buddy, Charles D

0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:38.040
<v Speaker 1>Chuck D. Darwin. Alright, so I teased everybody with Charles Darwin.

0:33:38.720 --> 0:33:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh is that who you're talking about? Which is what

0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:43.040
<v Speaker 1>I do every Halloween. I dress up as Charles Darwin

0:33:43.080 --> 0:33:46.360
<v Speaker 1>and tease the local teens. Oh what are you going

0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:48.800
<v Speaker 1>to dress up as for our show in d C

0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:52.400
<v Speaker 1>on October twenty night. I don't know, but I'm glad

0:33:52.400 --> 0:33:54.880
<v Speaker 1>you mentioned that, because we're doing a show at the

0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:58.200
<v Speaker 1>Lincoln Theater and we're turning it into a Halloween ball.

0:33:58.280 --> 0:34:02.040
<v Speaker 1>It's a Halloween bash, not even a ball. Yeah, it's

0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:06.440
<v Speaker 1>a wrong above the ball, including a reading of a

0:34:07.160 --> 0:34:09.399
<v Speaker 1>of a Halloween story like we do just for their

0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:12.160
<v Speaker 1>ears only. Yeah, Plus we'll be dressed up. We're encouraging

0:34:12.200 --> 0:34:15.000
<v Speaker 1>everyone who comes to be dressed up. Maybe I'll go

0:34:15.000 --> 0:34:16.719
<v Speaker 1>to Charles Darwin. And as far as I know, it's

0:34:16.719 --> 0:34:19.640
<v Speaker 1>an all ages show, but it could get spooky and

0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:22.360
<v Speaker 1>our shows do get a little blue. So just f y,

0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:25.520
<v Speaker 1>I you've been worn So Charles Darwin, who I made

0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:27.840
<v Speaker 1>dress up as I've got. I'm pretty sure I know

0:34:27.880 --> 0:34:30.920
<v Speaker 1>what I'm going as I'd rather not reveal it at

0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:33.960
<v Speaker 1>the time. Um, he was kind of in on this

0:34:34.000 --> 0:34:37.840
<v Speaker 1>game a long time ago, and he was he loved animals,

0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:42.319
<v Speaker 1>but he also wanted to study animals, but he also

0:34:42.360 --> 0:34:46.200
<v Speaker 1>wanted to treat them humanly while he studied animals. Sounds

0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:51.600
<v Speaker 1>sounds like Charles Darwin kind of approach. Yes. Uh So

0:34:51.719 --> 0:34:55.760
<v Speaker 1>there was a eight seventy four there was like people

0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:57.960
<v Speaker 1>were actually starting to get in trouble for some of

0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:01.200
<v Speaker 1>these things. Uh. In eighteen seven, any for these scientists

0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:04.920
<v Speaker 1>were actually put on trial for torturing dogs because they

0:35:04.920 --> 0:35:09.720
<v Speaker 1>wanted to see how absent and alcohol affected their nervous system.

0:35:09.760 --> 0:35:12.840
<v Speaker 1>So they cut them open and exposed them to these liquids.

0:35:12.920 --> 0:35:15.719
<v Speaker 1>They just dowsed them, And is what I what I'm

0:35:15.760 --> 0:35:18.640
<v Speaker 1>taking from I have no idea, I guess, so they're

0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:21.319
<v Speaker 1>actually acquitted. But um, it sort of brought things into

0:35:21.360 --> 0:35:26.040
<v Speaker 1>the UH in the front of everyone's minds and Darwin.

0:35:27.280 --> 0:35:28.880
<v Speaker 1>People were saying, let's not do this at all, and

0:35:28.960 --> 0:35:31.000
<v Speaker 1>Darwin stepped in and said he was a little more

0:35:31.000 --> 0:35:32.799
<v Speaker 1>moderate and said, you know what, let's craft a bill

0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:35.640
<v Speaker 1>here in the United Kingdom where you can do this,

0:35:36.360 --> 0:35:41.560
<v Speaker 1>but do it humanely. And that resulted in the Cruelty

0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:46.480
<v Speaker 1>to Animals Act of eight. It's pretty great. It was advancement,

0:35:47.440 --> 0:35:50.239
<v Speaker 1>it was, but the UK actually has long led the

0:35:50.239 --> 0:35:53.680
<v Speaker 1>way in the West for animal rights. Um, even even

0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:57.560
<v Speaker 1>before that, as we'll see, they they were trying to

0:35:57.600 --> 0:36:00.120
<v Speaker 1>protect animals, as we'll see in the next episod So

0:36:00.480 --> 0:36:03.520
<v Speaker 1>that's right. And then a little later in ur the

0:36:03.680 --> 0:36:07.239
<v Speaker 1>University's Federation of Animal Welfare said, let's get these two

0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:13.000
<v Speaker 1>dudes zoologist and a microbiologist, Russell and Birch, and just

0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:14.920
<v Speaker 1>do a lot of research, guys, and come back with

0:36:15.000 --> 0:36:18.719
<v Speaker 1>some findings that we can use. And boy did they. Yeah.

0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:22.560
<v Speaker 1>They they were like, there's a lot better that we

0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:27.480
<v Speaker 1>can do in protecting animals. They um, scientists are typically

0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:31.000
<v Speaker 1>dumb and can only remember things through a literation. So

0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:34.000
<v Speaker 1>these guys came up with the three RS, something that

0:36:34.040 --> 0:36:36.680
<v Speaker 1>could be put on a p s a poster um.

0:36:36.719 --> 0:36:39.239
<v Speaker 1>The three RS. I'm just teasing about the scientist thing,

0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:44.040
<v Speaker 1>our replacement, reduction and refinement. Right, yes, so your first

0:36:44.080 --> 0:36:48.720
<v Speaker 1>goal is to to find a replacement of the animal.

0:36:49.000 --> 0:36:54.640
<v Speaker 1>Is there any alternative to the animal in this experiment? Yeah, well, like, uh,

0:36:54.960 --> 0:36:57.520
<v Speaker 1>a sentient animal with a not like with a worm

0:36:57.560 --> 0:37:01.480
<v Speaker 1>perhaps instead of a mouse, or you know, if you

0:37:01.520 --> 0:37:05.879
<v Speaker 1>can find uh willing robot. Right, you know that it's

0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 1>the bill. The second one's reduction. You want to reduce

0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:13.239
<v Speaker 1>the number of animals used to the absolute minimum. You

0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:16.720
<v Speaker 1>don't want to have any spare bang utangs hanging around.

0:37:17.200 --> 0:37:20.280
<v Speaker 1>You want to know how many you're gonna use, and uh,

0:37:20.640 --> 0:37:24.960
<v Speaker 1>those are the ones that you can kill. Correct and

0:37:25.000 --> 0:37:29.160
<v Speaker 1>then finally refine, which means and and this is you know,

0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:31.200
<v Speaker 1>sort of the opposite of what you were talking about

0:37:31.200 --> 0:37:34.920
<v Speaker 1>with those awful stats that you said, like, let's refine

0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:38.359
<v Speaker 1>this and at least get your technique down. Uh so

0:37:38.400 --> 0:37:42.240
<v Speaker 1>well that the suffering is minimized to its bare minimum

0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:46.200
<v Speaker 1>as well the waste is reduced. Yeah yeah, Um, and

0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:50.000
<v Speaker 1>that that uh, that was nine that Russell and Birch

0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:53.160
<v Speaker 1>released the three RS. This is two thousand nine. That

0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:59.000
<v Speaker 1>that one study I cited was conducted years later. So, uh, Peter,

0:37:59.680 --> 0:38:02.160
<v Speaker 1>you know the people for the Ethical Treatment of Animals,

0:38:02.200 --> 0:38:03.960
<v Speaker 1>We've talked about them quite a bit on the show.

0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:07.440
<v Speaker 1>They are down with the three RS, of course, but

0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:10.000
<v Speaker 1>they say, you know what, that's not enough, though. We

0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:13.040
<v Speaker 1>have a lot of studies that show that they're way

0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:17.360
<v Speaker 1>better ways of doing things these days than using animals

0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:20.920
<v Speaker 1>with the computer modeling that we have now and software

0:38:21.360 --> 0:38:25.440
<v Speaker 1>and humans. Yeah, and um, they're they've figured out techniques

0:38:25.560 --> 0:38:32.200
<v Speaker 1>using stem cells um to grow organs or organs cells

0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:37.040
<v Speaker 1>or like say, skin cells in vitro, and then exposing

0:38:37.040 --> 0:38:39.640
<v Speaker 1>them to the chemicals you want to test, and then

0:38:39.800 --> 0:38:43.719
<v Speaker 1>not only will you have your reaction or non reaction,

0:38:44.160 --> 0:38:47.480
<v Speaker 1>you'll also have it with like a human human cells.

0:38:48.200 --> 0:38:50.799
<v Speaker 1>So it's not like, oh, it messed this rabbits face

0:38:50.920 --> 0:38:53.919
<v Speaker 1>up pretty bad. Well, we'll just assume that it will

0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:56.320
<v Speaker 1>mess up a human skin as well. It's you know,

0:38:56.520 --> 0:38:59.440
<v Speaker 1>this stuff really burned through that that human skin tissue

0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:01.600
<v Speaker 1>that we sent the sized, So now we know for

0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:05.440
<v Speaker 1>sure not to give it to humans. There's also something

0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:08.759
<v Speaker 1>called because a big objection to that is well, that's

0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:10.959
<v Speaker 1>just a it's a skin. It's a group of skin

0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:14.160
<v Speaker 1>cells in vitro that doesn't really replicate you know, these

0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:18.280
<v Speaker 1>really intricate interplays that make up organs and systems of organs.

0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:21.279
<v Speaker 1>And there's a company out called um OH. I don't

0:39:21.280 --> 0:39:23.680
<v Speaker 1>remember what they're called, but their invention is organ on

0:39:23.760 --> 0:39:27.879
<v Speaker 1>a chip. It's amazing, dude. I watched this video about

0:39:27.920 --> 0:39:32.279
<v Speaker 1>it last night, which that's the only way it could

0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:34.560
<v Speaker 1>be better. It's if you could eat it afterwards, but

0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:37.040
<v Speaker 1>it'd be pretty messed up if you did so. It's

0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:41.520
<v Speaker 1>like a USB stick size module. That's the word I'm

0:39:41.520 --> 0:39:45.759
<v Speaker 1>going with. It's transparent and um say, the long on

0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:51.160
<v Speaker 1>a chip has some branching stuff, and inside there is

0:39:51.560 --> 0:39:57.080
<v Speaker 1>a layer of um lung cells and the that replicate

0:39:57.640 --> 0:40:02.120
<v Speaker 1>and simulate human lung So you have human lung cells

0:40:02.120 --> 0:40:04.360
<v Speaker 1>growing in the and arranged in the way that they

0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:07.520
<v Speaker 1>would in the human lung. And then the this device

0:40:07.600 --> 0:40:10.400
<v Speaker 1>allows you to pass air over the top and blood

0:40:10.400 --> 0:40:14.480
<v Speaker 1>over the top and introduce bacteria and introduce white blood

0:40:14.480 --> 0:40:18.480
<v Speaker 1>cells and study what they do. So you're replicating the

0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:23.160
<v Speaker 1>function of a human lung on this little thing, which

0:40:23.200 --> 0:40:26.680
<v Speaker 1>is all simulation. It is, but it's a real simulation,

0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:29.840
<v Speaker 1>Like it's it's using real lung cells and they're functioning

0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:33.040
<v Speaker 1>like a lung normally would, except you don't have to

0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:34.799
<v Speaker 1>you don't have to use it. You don't have to

0:40:34.800 --> 0:40:37.839
<v Speaker 1>say here and and inhale this. We'll just pass this

0:40:38.160 --> 0:40:42.000
<v Speaker 1>antibiotic across the lung cells and it will treat it

0:40:42.040 --> 0:40:46.200
<v Speaker 1>like the human lung would. It's amazing. And then yeah,

0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:48.399
<v Speaker 1>if you could eat it afterwards, eat the human lung

0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:52.640
<v Speaker 1>cells with some guacamali, you'd be like this, this is

0:40:52.800 --> 0:40:55.400
<v Speaker 1>the circle of life is complete. Well, that's sort of

0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:57.120
<v Speaker 1>one of the big points so that Peter and a

0:40:57.120 --> 0:41:00.440
<v Speaker 1>lot of organizations uses that we're we're so vans now

0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:03.720
<v Speaker 1>with our computer modeling and these simulations that they're actually

0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:08.080
<v Speaker 1>they are better ways than like it's sort of archaic

0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:11.000
<v Speaker 1>to experiment on an animal like these are not only

0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:15.120
<v Speaker 1>cruelty free, but it's smarter and better, Right, that's the

0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:18.479
<v Speaker 1>argument they make. Yeah, and I mean the statistics cut

0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:21.879
<v Speaker 1>both ways. Like if you look at Peter's stats, they're

0:41:21.920 --> 0:41:27.520
<v Speaker 1>like animal models are predictive. It's in this dismal range

0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:31.280
<v Speaker 1>right for you know, human outcomes, and then the people

0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:33.640
<v Speaker 1>who are in favor of animal testing stay, well, these

0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:37.000
<v Speaker 1>these computer models are actually the ones that have dismal results.

0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:40.360
<v Speaker 1>So both sides. I guess it's just too new, maybe

0:41:40.440 --> 0:41:43.840
<v Speaker 1>it's unproven. Yeah, but there does seem to be a

0:41:43.920 --> 0:41:48.839
<v Speaker 1>movement a foot in uh bio medicine to replace as

0:41:48.920 --> 0:41:54.600
<v Speaker 1>much as possible computer models with animals with computer models. Yeah. Uh.

0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:57.680
<v Speaker 1>Some of the other things that animal rights groups lobby for,

0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:01.120
<v Speaker 1>things like, well how about you do like CT scans

0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:03.760
<v Speaker 1>or m r s you're not actually harming the animal,

0:42:04.560 --> 0:42:08.040
<v Speaker 1>or this thing called micro dosing where you actually give

0:42:08.120 --> 0:42:13.080
<v Speaker 1>humans just very very small doses of these medicines that

0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:16.520
<v Speaker 1>won't be enough to hurt them if things don't work out,

0:42:16.840 --> 0:42:18.800
<v Speaker 1>but you could tell if it's going to be effective

0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:21.120
<v Speaker 1>or not. Yeah, it still produces that reaction on a

0:42:21.120 --> 0:42:23.440
<v Speaker 1>molecular level. It's just not going to have a system

0:42:23.520 --> 0:42:27.000
<v Speaker 1>wide toxic effect on it. That's pretty that's pretty neat.

0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:33.560
<v Speaker 1>Um and and they're there. There's some change, but at

0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:37.400
<v Speaker 1>the same time there's also um some digging in on

0:42:37.400 --> 0:42:39.839
<v Speaker 1>on both sides as well, Like, for example, with that

0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:44.000
<v Speaker 1>live tissue trauma training. Um, there was a there's a

0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:49.360
<v Speaker 1>movement to replace uh, any live animal with a dummy

0:42:49.520 --> 0:42:52.120
<v Speaker 1>or a mannequin or something like that. And the people

0:42:52.160 --> 0:42:55.080
<v Speaker 1>who are proponents of using animals and live tissue trauma

0:42:55.120 --> 0:42:58.200
<v Speaker 1>training say, man, there's something that can happen to a

0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:02.279
<v Speaker 1>battlefield medic during common at and that's called freezing. When

0:43:02.280 --> 0:43:05.959
<v Speaker 1>they're presented with a human being with you know, a

0:43:06.000 --> 0:43:09.200
<v Speaker 1>major trauma, they can just sit there and freeze and

0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:11.440
<v Speaker 1>freak out because this is the first time they've been

0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:14.360
<v Speaker 1>exposed to it. One of the aspects of you know,

0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:17.239
<v Speaker 1>blowing the leg off of a pig is that this

0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:19.239
<v Speaker 1>person is having to work on a pig. And yeah,

0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:21.320
<v Speaker 1>it's a pig, but it's a live pig. It's not

0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:25.920
<v Speaker 1>a right exactly, and maybe they made they made the

0:43:25.960 --> 0:43:27.920
<v Speaker 1>person care for the pig for like a week first,

0:43:27.920 --> 0:43:30.279
<v Speaker 1>so that it has even more Well, I just made

0:43:30.320 --> 0:43:32.319
<v Speaker 1>that up, but you could you could see how the

0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:35.720
<v Speaker 1>how that would like that would be tough to replace.

0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:38.319
<v Speaker 1>That's a tough one to argue with. But I think

0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:41.160
<v Speaker 1>ultimately the question is race chuck um, And this is

0:43:41.200 --> 0:43:44.239
<v Speaker 1>what we're gonna address in the next episode. Is is

0:43:44.239 --> 0:43:48.200
<v Speaker 1>probably the largest question of all and is do humans

0:43:48.239 --> 0:43:52.279
<v Speaker 1>have or have humans ever had the right to use

0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:57.239
<v Speaker 1>animals for our own means? And that's uh, we'll talk

0:43:57.280 --> 0:43:59.759
<v Speaker 1>about that one on the next episode. Boy, that's a

0:43:59.840 --> 0:44:03.319
<v Speaker 1>nice cliffhanger, I think, so too well done. Do we

0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:05.400
<v Speaker 1>have listener mail this one? Yeah? And you know what,

0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:07.879
<v Speaker 1>not only that, we have a two part listener mail

0:44:08.000 --> 0:44:11.400
<v Speaker 1>awesome that has its own cliffhanger. Man. All right, well,

0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:13.160
<v Speaker 1>let's get to it. So if you want to know

0:44:13.280 --> 0:44:16.440
<v Speaker 1>more about animal testing, you can type that word in

0:44:16.480 --> 0:44:18.480
<v Speaker 1>the search part how stuff works dot com and it

0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:21.879
<v Speaker 1>will bring up this excellent article. And since I said

0:44:21.920 --> 0:44:25.399
<v Speaker 1>search bar, it's time for part one of listener Mail.

0:44:27.440 --> 0:44:31.440
<v Speaker 1>That's right. This one was so robust. It's an unprecedented

0:44:31.480 --> 0:44:37.920
<v Speaker 1>to part from Evan, not Ivan, but Evan, will you

0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:40.960
<v Speaker 1>grow up to be a good man? I hope? So

0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:44.080
<v Speaker 1>now that's Levi on. Oh yeah, well the else silent

0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:47.440
<v Speaker 1>um and those were weren't the right words anyway, but

0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:52.280
<v Speaker 1>it's adorable. All right, here we go. First off, guys,

0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:54.520
<v Speaker 1>gotta say you're not only my favorite podcast, but you're

0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:57.840
<v Speaker 1>also my ten year old son's favorite podcast. Listen to

0:44:57.880 --> 0:45:01.680
<v Speaker 1>every episode at least twice how about that. And my

0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:03.839
<v Speaker 1>son is also a big fan of your TV show

0:45:03.880 --> 0:45:07.680
<v Speaker 1>and the animated shorts why they're in deep. However, my

0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:11.919
<v Speaker 1>beautiful fiance is not. In fact, there have been times

0:45:11.960 --> 0:45:15.160
<v Speaker 1>when I will be sitting next to her and she's

0:45:15.200 --> 0:45:17.680
<v Speaker 1>reading a book and I'll have my headphones listening to

0:45:17.719 --> 0:45:20.600
<v Speaker 1>the podcast so I don't disturb her, and I'll burst

0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:23.879
<v Speaker 1>out laughing like a crazy person. In her words, uh

0:45:23.920 --> 0:45:27.920
<v Speaker 1>this quote crazy end quote. Behavior of mine is directly

0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:31.799
<v Speaker 1>uh related to listening to you two, So thanks for

0:45:31.880 --> 0:45:34.360
<v Speaker 1>that anyway. One of the reasons are right is to

0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:37.600
<v Speaker 1>call your attention. You said on the Sugar It Powers

0:45:37.600 --> 0:45:41.880
<v Speaker 1>the Earth podcast, Chuck says, one day we're gonna rerecord

0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:44.560
<v Speaker 1>a show and not realize it, we're gonna hear about it. Well,

0:45:44.600 --> 0:45:46.919
<v Speaker 1>you managed to do it. You probably heard from someone

0:45:46.920 --> 0:45:49.120
<v Speaker 1>else by now. But you have covered the topic of

0:45:49.160 --> 0:45:54.480
<v Speaker 1>customs twice, the most recent one and all gets the

0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:57.920
<v Speaker 1>previous one in September. Don't get me wrong, both were great.

0:45:58.520 --> 0:46:01.440
<v Speaker 1>Honestly think that both of you legit only forgot. I

0:46:01.520 --> 0:46:03.320
<v Speaker 1>was waiting for either of you to acknowledge at the

0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:07.239
<v Speaker 1>second time, and that never came. And Ivan, you are

0:46:07.360 --> 0:46:11.800
<v Speaker 1>right on the money. Bou Josh emailed me and said, hey, buddy,

0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:16.440
<v Speaker 1>guess what we've done this. It finally happened, we released it,

0:46:17.080 --> 0:46:21.600
<v Speaker 1>and um, at first I was like shoot, but then

0:46:21.640 --> 0:46:24.200
<v Speaker 1>I thought, you know what, We've got a nice bit

0:46:24.200 --> 0:46:27.160
<v Speaker 1>of trivia. Now it was bound to happen, and now

0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:30.960
<v Speaker 1>people have. It's It's almost like an easter egg, right

0:46:31.440 --> 0:46:34.640
<v Speaker 1>that listeners and fans can say, like, you know which

0:46:34.640 --> 0:46:37.719
<v Speaker 1>one they did twice? You're a true fan, you know

0:46:38.160 --> 0:46:41.680
<v Speaker 1>you know it's weird. Though, UM, at no point during

0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:45.359
<v Speaker 1>the research and recording of the Customs episode was I like,

0:46:45.560 --> 0:46:49.720
<v Speaker 1>this sounds really familiar? Or did we talk about this nothing,

0:46:49.840 --> 0:46:52.520
<v Speaker 1>no point whatsoever. Nope. So that might make the first

0:46:52.560 --> 0:46:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Customs episode the least memorable episode we've ever done. Perhaps

0:46:56.600 --> 0:46:58.960
<v Speaker 1>so Part two you can look for in the second

0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:03.359
<v Speaker 1>part of this sweet coming out from Von wherein he

0:47:03.520 --> 0:47:06.359
<v Speaker 1>made a list of all of our band names over

0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:09.960
<v Speaker 1>the years. He also made a list of your puns.

0:47:10.400 --> 0:47:12.399
<v Speaker 1>I am not puny. I take issue with that. I'll

0:47:12.400 --> 0:47:14.840
<v Speaker 1>talk about it in the next episode. Great, that's a

0:47:14.880 --> 0:47:17.439
<v Speaker 1>great set up if you want to get in touch

0:47:17.480 --> 0:47:21.960
<v Speaker 1>with us, like lev On Evon and what is his

0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:24.600
<v Speaker 1>son's name? Did he say. He didn't say, but Evan

0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:28.320
<v Speaker 1>and son. Yeah, it'sund like a funeral home. Uh. You

0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:30.880
<v Speaker 1>can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast

0:47:30.960 --> 0:47:34.239
<v Speaker 1>or hang out with me at Josh um Clark. You

0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:36.839
<v Speaker 1>can hang out with us on Facebook at Facebook dot

0:47:36.840 --> 0:47:39.120
<v Speaker 1>com slash Stuff you Should Know and check out Chuck

0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:42.320
<v Speaker 1>at Charles W. Chuck Bryant and me it's super Josh

0:47:42.360 --> 0:47:46.560
<v Speaker 1>Clark both on Facebook. We're on Instagram. We're on social

0:47:46.600 --> 0:47:49.319
<v Speaker 1>media that hasn't even been invented yet. Plus, you can

0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:51.800
<v Speaker 1>send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how stuff

0:47:51.800 --> 0:47:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Works dot com and has always joined us at our

0:47:53.920 --> 0:47:56.959
<v Speaker 1>home on the web, the newly updated Stuff you Should

0:47:57.000 --> 0:48:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Know dot com. For more on this and thousands of

0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:12.440
<v Speaker 1>other topics, visit how stuff Works dot com. H