WEBVTT - Corruption and Corrosion 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:14.880 Good morning, Peepsen. Welcome to Willkate f Daily with Meet 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.000 your Girl Danielle Moody. Recording from the home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:23.119 I'm really excited to welcome to Willgate Fu Daily for 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.880 the first time. Kristin Dumay, who is the author of 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:32.440 the book Jesus and John Wayne, How White Evangelicals Corrupted 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.600 a Faith and Fractured a Nation in our supersize in 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.800 depth conversation that Kristin and I have, we talk about 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:44.680 the rise of the far right and how it has 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:49.520 connected with and grown deep roots inside of the white 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:55.560 evangelical Christian movement, and what it means to also have 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:02.360 this skewed or I would say, a corrupted, corroded version 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:08.520 of religion layered on top of misogyny, layered on top 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:13.520 of anti LGBT sentiments, layered on top of white supremacy, 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:19.040 and really understand the core tenants of this I will 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:23.280 use air quotes quote unquote faith and how it has 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:29.480 begun to corrode and erode our sense of values around 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:34.280 equity and justice for all. And you know what, Kristen's book, 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.560 which came out in twenty twenty and is accessible everywhere, 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.280 So if you have not gotten an opportunity to read it. 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.120 This is my full throated endorsement of that book. Is 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:50.920 you know, I am not interested in any of kind 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.880 of the bullshit, you know, segments that have been done 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.680 since Trump came onto the political scene. Let me get 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:02.440 inside of the hump voters mind and all of those things. 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.480 I think that that's bullshit. We know that they're racist, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.320 we know that they're misogynist. However, what I do think 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:15.600 is interesting is how faith has become a recurring player, 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:21.839 a recurring actor in uprisings in this country that come 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:27.600 at the hands of violent white Americans, from the KKK 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:33.440 to the Tea Party to now Trumpism and before right, 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:40.600 faith quote unquote has been a large part of creating oppression, 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:46.040 creating and sustaining patriarchy, and upholding white supremacy. And so 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:51.079 if we understand what drives people to be connected to 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.880 faith in that way, then maybe we can figure out 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.400 how to counter message. Right. This is not about oh, 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.960 I don't want to hurt your feeling. It's that I 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:05.040 want to understand why you choose to be a part 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.919 of a religion that is based in suppression, What does 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.040 it offer to you? And so Kristin and I get 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.839 into a really great conversation on today's episode. I would 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.640 love to hear from all of you, so do send 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.760 out tweets, Do put in the comment section what comes 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:27.720 up for you as you listen to this episode. Coming 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:35.360 up next, my conversation with author Kristin Dumey, Folks, I 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.160 am very excited to welcome to Woke f Daily for 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:44.080 the very first time, author, historian, and just all around 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:50.040 just insightful where it's in on how we are weaponizing 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:54.720 religion in this country and around the world. Kristin Cobez Dumey, 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.960 who is the author of Jesus and John Wayne, How 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:04.880 White Evangelical corrupted a faith and fractured a nation. Kristen, 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.880 I don't think that anyone's book is more I know 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.200 that it came out in twenty twenty, but it's just 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:15.920 more on the mark with what is happening right now 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.760 in this country and what we are seeing happen around 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.799 the world. You know, I know that it's not new 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.840 right that religion is used as a tool for politics, 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:35.400 for the advancement of cruelty, for the justification of violence 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:37.600 in many ways, but I kind of want to open 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:42.000 up with asking you, you know, when you wrote your book, 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.160 did you think that you would be in this space, 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.840 in this global space that we find ourselves right now, 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.800 or do you see yourself as a soothsayer that you 0:04:55.839 --> 0:05:00.840 know you're like you were reading the Tea Leaves, you know, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.360 as I was writing Jesus and John Wayne, I did 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.720 have this feeling of urgency. I you know, I was 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.200 sitting in my home office and looking at the historical 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.600 documents and putting all these pieces together, and also just 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:18.000 watching what was unfolding two seventeen, two and eighteen, and 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.479 I was just thinking, over and over again, I can 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:22.960 make sense of this, right, I think I can explain this. 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.000 And so honestly, as I was writing, I did have 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:30.719 a sense that this book was explanatory and that it 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.119 could just describe how all of these pieces were kind 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:39.239 of coming together. That said, I could not foresee the future. 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.080 I could not foresee where we have found ourselves post 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:47.279 January sixth, post Stop the Stealer. We're not even posts. 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.400 We're in that moment, and we're in that moment globally. 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.520 And so I think it's fair to say I thought 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.840 it was an important book. I did not have a 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.680 clear sense for just how much it was going to 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:02.839 speak into the urgency of our global moment. You know, 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:08.040 let's let's unpack um the kind of the the connection 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:14.400 of white evangelical Christians with the far right. How does 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.800 how does this marriage of sorts come about? Kristen like 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.279 And again I say, this is not anything that is new. 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:27.159 I understood learning as a child about the clue Klux 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.679 Klan and their cross you know, on their white robes, 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:38.200 that Christianity and organized Christianity has its roots in white 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:42.560 supremist ideology, or it has been co opted i'll say, 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:48.760 by white supremists m rather to advance their ideology. And 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:54.240 so tell us about this, this this relationship and how 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.920 it has kind of grown and shifted, but it's still 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:03.680 very strong. Yeah. I think first it's important to draw 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.080 some distinctions, which is actually a really hard thing to 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.680 do because it's not even clear to some of us 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.840 very careful observers exactly where the lines can be drawn. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.800 But we're talking kind of far right, and then we're 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:21.760 talking mainstream conservative white evangelicals, and you know, what kind 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.240 of overlap is there, And it is a really difficult 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.040 question to get to the bottom of. And really throughout 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.080 my book, I was kind of asking this, what is 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.960 mainstream and what is fringe? What is extremist here? And 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:38.240 are we in fact seeing a shift between fringe and 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.640 mainstream or maybe it was always that way and we 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.880 didn't fully understand it. So but it's important for me 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.560 to say that clearly because right now what I see 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:52.560 happening within some conservative white evangelical spaces is the weaponizing 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.480 even of this kind of conversation that they'll be very 0:07:55.560 --> 0:08:00.440 quick to say, see the other side they are, they 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:04.440 are just tarring all of us as extremists, and so 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:06.880 of course we have to stick together, right, And so 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:11.600 that's a dynamic at play here. In fact, there are 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:16.880 many conservative white evangelicals who hold to family values politics 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:21.600 and still firmly support our democracy, right, And that's kind 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:24.080 of a distinction that I think is important to draw. 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.679 And then there are some who are very clear that 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:33.600 democracy is less important than carrying out God's law and 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:38.400 are supremely confident that they have within themselves the power 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.920 to interpret what God's law is and to impose that 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.079 on America, because they believe that God has a special 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.720 role for America, America as a Christian nation, and that 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:52.679 they personally have a job to sustain that. Now, how 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:57.000 they interpret Christianity and how they imagine this Christian nation, 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.240 that's where we can talk about things like race and 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:04.040 gender and power. But there are many Christians that will 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:08.800 hold to similar values and be okay with democracy, even 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:10.960 be supportive of democracy. And then there are some who 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.040 are ready to just throw that aside. And it's often 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:19.120 hard to perceive within conservative evangelical spaces where people are 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.160 drawing that line. And even now I'm watching in day 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.840 to day conversations and the people who will step out 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.880 and say, yes, you know, we want to promote conservative 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:33.359 gender roles, or yes, we want to organize against abortion 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.000 and we want to see that become the law of 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.440 the land. There are some who say, and we're doing 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.520 that through democratic processes, And there are others who are 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.240 who are very comfortable saying the ends will justify the means. 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.079 I mean, I guess what is wild for me, Kristen, 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:53.000 is that I don't see the distinctions. And the reason 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:57.920 I say that is because you have voices like Marjorie 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:02.600 Tailor Green, for instance, who has become the face of 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:07.880 the New Republican Party, who has been in interviews talking 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.960 about America as a Christian as a white Christian nation. 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:17.440 You have you know, actors who have been on the 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:21.719 political stage for quite some time, you know, like a 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:29.880 Mitch McConnell, who again they want to force there. They 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:34.600 look for every excuse to have religious quote unquote exemptions 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:39.080 in what would normally be just the advancement of equity 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.520 for people who were left out of the constitution and 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.240 the creation of this country. And so when you look 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:52.199 at and you and you think about these religious exemptions, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.360 have they allowed us to get to this place where 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.959 religion has continued to be reapanized and those on the 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:07.120 left have continued to tiptoe around what they have given 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:13.000 space and rise too. Yeah, I think if we look 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:18.600 at conversations around religious liberty, for example, can see how 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:22.560 some of the conservative conservative organizations that have been the 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.240 strongest proponents of religious liberty often you know, are far 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:31.160 more invested in protecting the religious liberty of conservative Christians 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:35.040 and not Also, there's going to be a smaller number 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:39.960 who are working across different faith traditions and in deciding 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.480 that note to protect this constitutional right, we need to 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.160 protect it for all. But at the core of Christian 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:51.600 nationalism is the idea of privileging Christianity and a certain 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.160 type of Christianity. And so then it makes perfect sense 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:59.520 if for them, you know, the whole country in their 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:05.959 mind has been established on Christian principles, divinely established, and 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:10.480 so to be blessed by God, you need to align 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:14.040 your laws with God's will, and if you don't, your 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.240 country is going to be cursed. Our country is going 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.920 to be cursed. Right, and so there's this logic that 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.080 to actually and then you'll get teachings of you know, 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:25.760 the Constitution was divinely inspired, and that's somewhat of a fringe, 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.280 but not as far fringe as you might think that 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.160 kind of rhetoric. And so certainly the interpretation of some 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:38.360 of these constitutional rights absolutely privilege their own kind right. 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:40.480 And this is a very kind of us versus them, 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.880 real Americans versus the rest, and if you are not 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.720 with us, you are against us kind of rhetoric which 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:52.000 at its core is anti democratic. I mean, how did 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:57.959 they move their God from being a benevolent I'm bringing 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.280 in and taking in the poor. I am about creating 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.439 community and love and acceptance in all of these things, 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:12.520 and turn their God into this gun toting like caricature 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:17.880 of Christianity. How is that? How have people taken hold 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:22.800 to that? So, I mean, it really is about power, 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.480 and there's a lot that can be justified in the 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.480 name of really seizing power and grasping power and so 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:32.920 that you have the power to shape your realities, that 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.640 you have the power to control your world. And you 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.040 just see that as a theme over and over again 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:45.559 in recent history of just this grasping for power but 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:50.360 covering it in language of righteousness, of you know, we're 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.679 doing this for the good of all of you. Right, 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.160 trust us, and again God will bless us if you 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.720 follow these laws. But that God is not just a 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.600 benevolent deity. There is an understanding that this is also 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.760 a God of judgment, of wrath, and that you will 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.360 come under the punishment if you are disobedient, and that 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:13.880 we as a country have this divine calling and if 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.440 we as a country are disobedient, then we also will 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.880 suffer this punishment. And so but you do see a 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:21.800 lot of kind of picking and choosing when you look 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:23.920 at the Christian scriptures. You're right, there are a lot 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:28.040 of passages that are about love. God is love and 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:32.160 it's about the heart of the Christian Gospel traditionally has 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:36.040 been understood as you know, Jesus Christ divesting himself of power, 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.080 offering himself as a sacrifice for the redemption of all things. 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.520 Love your neighbor as yourself, Love your enemies, turn the 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.880 other cheek, put the sword away, right. My kingdom is 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.280 not of this earth kind of thing. That is not 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.440 what we're seeing here. And in many cases they are 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:59.000 very explicitly rejecting that, even mocking some of that language 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.240 that you know, my kingdom is not of this earth 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.640 like this. These are the words of Jesus Christ. But 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.960 I've seen in just recent days Christian nationalists who are 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.280 just ridiculing that language. That's the language of like softness. 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.880 You can't trust those, you know, fake Christians who are 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:17.840 who are who are talking about loving your enemies right now. 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.280 The idea is that this time is so desperate it 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:26.360 requires all at war, really a kind of spiritual war, 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.760 but also political, and so you have to be all in. 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.440 It's this kind of warrior mentality. Now. The trick is, 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:38.920 if you look historically, leaders in within this movement could 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.920 always identify a dire threat right there. There's a long 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:49.480 history of conservative evangelicals situating themselves as embattled. You know, 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.680 anti communism was just core to their emerging political identity 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:59.120 in the mid century, and then opposition to the civil 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.800 rights movement, especially in the American South, opposition to feminism, 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.920 to the anti war movement, and the enemies of secular humanism, 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:11.880 and then later radical Islam or either. There's always a threat, 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.120 and once you identify that threat, then it's so easy 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.720 to fall into this ends justify the means mentality where 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.160 you don't need to just go to war but actually 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.280 preemptive war. You want to take them down before they 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:30.360 take you down. This is terrifying. And what's even more 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.520 and like I mean, I don't even like it's terrifying 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:38.200 in so many ways because I'm trying to understand, you know, 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:42.160 not in the not in the segments that we've seen. 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.120 You know, I want to understand the Trump voter. It's 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.360 not it's not from that vein. It's like I need 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.160 to we need to understand what these people are preparing 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:56.920 for and if what you just said is this place 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.360 of desperation that they are looking in America right now 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:05.719 as a religious battle field and a political battle field 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.720 and if they are willing literally and I mean literally, 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.160 to lock and load because they believe that they are 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:18.040 divinely anointed in doing so, in holding in holding, standing 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:22.760 their ground against the liberals that are coming to, you know, 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.880 turn this nation that they believe to be Christian into 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:31.240 this secular den of evil, then they will literally do anything, 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:36.040 in everything in order to keep that what they believe 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.440 to be this righteous order. How do you think that 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:48.040 that then the opposition deals with that reality. It's hard 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:49.840 because if you try to meet it had on and 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.560 call this out, you're just kind of proving their point that, 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.800 you know, everybody's against them and everybody's attacking them. And 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:58.520 some of the leaders within this movement are very skilled 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.560 at a spinning things in that way. We have some 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.720 statistics that show that I think it's around sixty percent 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:09.280 of evangelicals believe white evangelicals believe the election is stolen, 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.760 and around a quarter of white evangelicals believe that it 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:17.240 might be necessary to use violence right to restore this order. 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:22.560 And so that's not the majority, but it's really important 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.600 to look at again this connection between the more extreme 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.440 elements and the more mainstream, if you will, and what 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:35.240 we do see is a lot of sense of cultural displacement. 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.840 And some of this is real, right, We do have 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:43.760 real demographic change happening in this country, as Robbie Jones 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.120 has called it, the end of white Christian America, right, 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.800 that has been getting a lot of attention. We see 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:53.840 some declining attendance and declining loyalty among younger evangelicals, and 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.119 so this is causing some alarm. But then we have 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.320 these broader cultural changes, really going back to the Obama 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.600 presidents and the sea change on LGBTQ rights with the 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:06.120 Obergophile decision, And at that point you kind of see 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.920 things shifting. The whole combination of and they've been using 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.600 rhetoric of embattlement for a very long time and using 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.920 it effectively, but it was taking hold in a new 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:19.000 way against the backdrop of these demographic changes, and with 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.639 the realization all of a sudden that not only were 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.600 they not going to be in the majority, but they 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:30.040 also might not have the religious liberty that they thought 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.760 they needed to live faithful lives. Now, for them to 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.080 live faithful lives isn't just a private devotional matter, it's 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.760 also a kind of culture shaping, shaping the rest of 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.000 society and shaping the nation's laws. But all of these 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.840 things really kind of came together to intensify things in 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:52.440 the two thousands and to really position many, even seemingly 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.600 moderate people to say, yeah, things have changed, we might 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:58.800 need to try some new tactics. And of course this 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.560 is what they were being told over and over again 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:06.639 by right wing radio, religious or otherwise by Fox News, 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.480 and so this has just been a narrative that they 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:12.199 have been absorbing now for a very long time. And 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.720 we're seeing the fruits of that, that real desperation and 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:20.000 since even among some of the more moderates of yeah, 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.720 maybe we are, maybe we are under some kind of 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:25.760 threat our values, right, and we need to stand up 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:31.359 for our values before it's too late. Get a behind 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.000 the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.960 Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from The Daily Show 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.760 with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.200 deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.399 Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to tackle current 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.280 topics from gentrification to gun laws and take a closer 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:50.720 look at how and why these topics matter. 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Listen to Indisputable 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.600 with Doctor Rashad Ricci on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:52.200 you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear, 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:59.040 be sure to subscribe so you never miss a new episode. 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:07.320 Tell me how this line of thinking is different than 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:11.160 what the Islamic Republic is doing in Iran and has 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.200 done over the last forty years. Tell me how there 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:20.720 is not this very like obvious correlation, except for a 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:26.720 different interpretation, a different a different manuscript for the religion. 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:32.479 Because this isn't. Yes, America was founded by or I 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:34.480 don't even know. I don't even know how to how 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:37.560 to frame it anymore. Yes, religious zealots came here because 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:39.760 they no longer wanted to pay taxes to the king, 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.320 and then they destroy an indigenous population and you know, 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:45.840 build a country off of the backs and labor of 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:50.040 indigenous people and black enslaved people. At that same time, 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.479 it was supposed to be a secular nation, right like 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:59.280 where this melting pot that allows other religions to come here, 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:03.280 other people to be able to exist inside of their 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:08.200 faith with how without having to subscribe to one religion 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:10.880 or the other. Well, now they've said, no, no, no, 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:14.760 we want prayer back in school. We want God. We 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:17.359 want the rules that are followed to not be the 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:20.080 rules that are created by man, but that which we 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.560 follow that God has has intended for us to follow. 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.400 How is that different than what we are seeing right now? 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:30.280 And frankly, should that should we be looking out at 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:34.200 these countries that we are seeing that we've always looked 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.240 down on, that are making these hard pivots. You look 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:40.600 at Iran, what happened over the last forty years. You 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:43.399 look at what just happened recently with the election in 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:47.919 Italy and they the rise of Christio fascism there. You 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:51.760 look at what is happening and has happened in Hungary, like, 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:58.920 is this not an alarm Kristin for the rest of us? Yeah, 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.640 So I'm I'm I'm an Americanist by trading. I don't 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:06.119 do comparative work. So my observations here are going to be, 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:08.160 you know, that of a lave person really, and they're 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:12.280 trying to keep up with what's happening. But uh, you know, 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:16.119 there there is a sense of what this is is 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:20.240 a battle over identity and that people are finding identity 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:24.439 in certain communities and certain value systems. And there's a 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:28.240 lot in flux right now. I mean, we're living through 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:33.119 a global pandemic and uh, you know, we're coming out 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:38.000 of in the two thousands of economic downturn, downturn? Have 0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:40.840 we really come out of it? That seems very precarious. 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:44.480 We're in what may be the end of neoliberalism, not 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:47.080 that neoliberalism was all that great, right there, there are 0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:51.399 a lot of really big issues happening right now that 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:56.440 that have a powerful kind of destabilizing effect, and people 0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.560 are looking for meaning and they're looking for something solid 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:04.320 and right now, we do have a very powerful movement 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:09.719 through media, through religious networks that that's offering certain people, 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:13.639 certain people a strong sense of identity, a sense of 0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:16.520 who they are, and a sense of their own righteousness. 0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:21.280 Right That's that it's really um. It's it's meeting a 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:25.439 lot of needs, I think, And so that is um 0:25:26.040 --> 0:25:27.760 is what we're seeing in this country, and I think 0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:31.040 that you can see other examples of that in other 0:25:31.119 --> 0:25:35.080 countries as well. Now the form that this is taking 0:25:35.200 --> 0:25:38.200 in many Western countries, we're seeing a rise of global 0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:42.000 um right wing populism, and there is a kind of 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:47.200 common playbook here. It is elevating quote unquote traditional values, 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:52.359 you know, traditional gender roles, patriarchy, and patriarchy is is seen. 0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:55.359 It's not just male leadership, but really kind of a 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:59.760 dominating male leadership. In many cases, it's very muscular um 0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:05.679 masculinity that is necessary to defend faith, family, and nation 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:08.760 against all of these threats. And then women have to 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:12.880 kind of pop up that masculinity, that masculine strength through 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:18.239 their own subservience and by being mothers to many children. Right, 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:21.040 this is kind of this ideal family system that's seen 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:24.959 as the foundation of the social order. And there's a 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:28.560 long history of that. Now, everybody who holds to those 0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:32.280 or at least two kind of traditional family values is 0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:35.119 not a fascist by any stretch. But what you see 0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:39.040 right now as I'm watching, not really what's happening in Italy, 0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:40.800 so I'm not an expert there, but I am watching 0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:47.040 very closely today in American Christian spaces, how are they 0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:51.240 responding to this news. And what I'm seeing is a 0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:54.520 whole lot of celebration, have a lot of excitement, and 0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:57.159 a whole lot of taking this clip where she's talking 0:26:57.200 --> 0:27:00.359 about traditional family and traditional gender and you know, this 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:02.719