1 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Good morning, Peepsen. Welcome to Willkate f Daily with Meet 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: your Girl Danielle Moody. Recording from the home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to welcome to Willgate Fu Daily for 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: the first time. Kristin Dumay, who is the author of 5 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: the book Jesus and John Wayne, How White Evangelicals Corrupted 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: a Faith and Fractured a Nation in our supersize in 7 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: depth conversation that Kristin and I have, we talk about 8 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: the rise of the far right and how it has 9 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: connected with and grown deep roots inside of the white 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: evangelical Christian movement, and what it means to also have 11 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: this skewed or I would say, a corrupted, corroded version 12 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: of religion layered on top of misogyny, layered on top 13 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: of anti LGBT sentiments, layered on top of white supremacy, 14 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: and really understand the core tenants of this I will 15 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: use air quotes quote unquote faith and how it has 16 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: begun to corrode and erode our sense of values around 17 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: equity and justice for all. And you know what, Kristen's book, 18 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: which came out in twenty twenty and is accessible everywhere, 19 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: So if you have not gotten an opportunity to read it. 20 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: This is my full throated endorsement of that book. Is 21 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, I am not interested in any of kind 22 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: of the bullshit, you know, segments that have been done 23 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: since Trump came onto the political scene. Let me get 24 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: inside of the hump voters mind and all of those things. 25 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: I think that that's bullshit. We know that they're racist, 26 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: we know that they're misogynist. However, what I do think 27 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: is interesting is how faith has become a recurring player, 28 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:21,839 Speaker 1: a recurring actor in uprisings in this country that come 29 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: at the hands of violent white Americans, from the KKK 30 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: to the Tea Party to now Trumpism and before right, 31 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: faith quote unquote has been a large part of creating oppression, 32 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: creating and sustaining patriarchy, and upholding white supremacy. And so 33 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: if we understand what drives people to be connected to 34 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: faith in that way, then maybe we can figure out 35 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: how to counter message. Right. This is not about oh, 36 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to hurt your feeling. It's that I 37 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: want to understand why you choose to be a part 38 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: of a religion that is based in suppression, What does 39 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: it offer to you? And so Kristin and I get 40 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,839 Speaker 1: into a really great conversation on today's episode. I would 41 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: love to hear from all of you, so do send 42 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: out tweets, Do put in the comment section what comes 43 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: up for you as you listen to this episode. Coming 44 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: up next, my conversation with author Kristin Dumey, Folks, I 45 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: am very excited to welcome to Woke f Daily for 46 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: the very first time, author, historian, and just all around 47 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: just insightful where it's in on how we are weaponizing 48 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: religion in this country and around the world. Kristin Cobez Dumey, 49 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: who is the author of Jesus and John Wayne, How 50 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: White Evangelical corrupted a faith and fractured a nation. Kristen, 51 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: I don't think that anyone's book is more I know 52 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: that it came out in twenty twenty, but it's just 53 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: more on the mark with what is happening right now 54 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: in this country and what we are seeing happen around 55 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,799 Speaker 1: the world. You know, I know that it's not new 56 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: right that religion is used as a tool for politics, 57 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: for the advancement of cruelty, for the justification of violence 58 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: in many ways, but I kind of want to open 59 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: up with asking you, you know, when you wrote your book, 60 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: did you think that you would be in this space, 61 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: in this global space that we find ourselves right now, 62 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: or do you see yourself as a soothsayer that you 63 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: know you're like you were reading the Tea Leaves, you know, 64 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: as I was writing Jesus and John Wayne, I did 65 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: have this feeling of urgency. I you know, I was 66 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: sitting in my home office and looking at the historical 67 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: documents and putting all these pieces together, and also just 68 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: watching what was unfolding two seventeen, two and eighteen, and 69 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: I was just thinking, over and over again, I can 70 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: make sense of this, right, I think I can explain this. 71 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: And so honestly, as I was writing, I did have 72 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: a sense that this book was explanatory and that it 73 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,119 Speaker 1: could just describe how all of these pieces were kind 74 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:39,239 Speaker 1: of coming together. That said, I could not foresee the future. 75 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: I could not foresee where we have found ourselves post 76 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: January sixth, post Stop the Stealer. We're not even posts. 77 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: We're in that moment, and we're in that moment globally. 78 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: And so I think it's fair to say I thought 79 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: it was an important book. I did not have a 80 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: clear sense for just how much it was going to 81 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: speak into the urgency of our global moment. You know, 82 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: let's let's unpack um the kind of the the connection 83 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: of white evangelical Christians with the far right. How does 84 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: how does this marriage of sorts come about? Kristen like 85 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: And again I say, this is not anything that is new. 86 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: I understood learning as a child about the clue Klux 87 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,679 Speaker 1: Klan and their cross you know, on their white robes, 88 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: that Christianity and organized Christianity has its roots in white 89 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: supremist ideology, or it has been co opted i'll say, 90 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: by white supremists m rather to advance their ideology. And 91 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: so tell us about this, this this relationship and how 92 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: it has kind of grown and shifted, but it's still 93 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: very strong. Yeah. I think first it's important to draw 94 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: some distinctions, which is actually a really hard thing to 95 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: do because it's not even clear to some of us 96 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: very careful observers exactly where the lines can be drawn. 97 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: But we're talking kind of far right, and then we're 98 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: talking mainstream conservative white evangelicals, and you know, what kind 99 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: of overlap is there, And it is a really difficult 100 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: question to get to the bottom of. And really throughout 101 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: my book, I was kind of asking this, what is 102 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: mainstream and what is fringe? What is extremist here? And 103 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: are we in fact seeing a shift between fringe and 104 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: mainstream or maybe it was always that way and we 105 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: didn't fully understand it. So but it's important for me 106 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: to say that clearly because right now what I see 107 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: happening within some conservative white evangelical spaces is the weaponizing 108 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: even of this kind of conversation that they'll be very 109 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: quick to say, see the other side they are, they 110 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: are just tarring all of us as extremists, and so 111 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: of course we have to stick together, right, And so 112 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: that's a dynamic at play here. In fact, there are 113 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: many conservative white evangelicals who hold to family values politics 114 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: and still firmly support our democracy, right, And that's kind 115 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: of a distinction that I think is important to draw. 116 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,679 Speaker 1: And then there are some who are very clear that 117 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: democracy is less important than carrying out God's law and 118 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: are supremely confident that they have within themselves the power 119 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: to interpret what God's law is and to impose that 120 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: on America, because they believe that God has a special 121 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: role for America, America as a Christian nation, and that 122 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: they personally have a job to sustain that. Now, how 123 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: they interpret Christianity and how they imagine this Christian nation, 124 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: that's where we can talk about things like race and 125 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: gender and power. But there are many Christians that will 126 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: hold to similar values and be okay with democracy, even 127 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: be supportive of democracy. And then there are some who 128 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: are ready to just throw that aside. And it's often 129 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: hard to perceive within conservative evangelical spaces where people are 130 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: drawing that line. And even now I'm watching in day 131 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: to day conversations and the people who will step out 132 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: and say, yes, you know, we want to promote conservative 133 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:33,359 Speaker 1: gender roles, or yes, we want to organize against abortion 134 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: and we want to see that become the law of 135 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: the land. There are some who say, and we're doing 136 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: that through democratic processes, And there are others who are 137 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: who are very comfortable saying the ends will justify the means. 138 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess what is wild for me, Kristen, 139 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: is that I don't see the distinctions. And the reason 140 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: I say that is because you have voices like Marjorie 141 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: Tailor Green, for instance, who has become the face of 142 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: the New Republican Party, who has been in interviews talking 143 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: about America as a Christian as a white Christian nation. 144 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: You have you know, actors who have been on the 145 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 1: political stage for quite some time, you know, like a 146 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell, who again they want to force there. They 147 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: look for every excuse to have religious quote unquote exemptions 148 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: in what would normally be just the advancement of equity 149 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: for people who were left out of the constitution and 150 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: the creation of this country. And so when you look 151 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: at and you and you think about these religious exemptions, 152 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: have they allowed us to get to this place where 153 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: religion has continued to be reapanized and those on the 154 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: left have continued to tiptoe around what they have given 155 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: space and rise too. Yeah, I think if we look 156 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: at conversations around religious liberty, for example, can see how 157 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: some of the conservative conservative organizations that have been the 158 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: strongest proponents of religious liberty often you know, are far 159 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: more invested in protecting the religious liberty of conservative Christians 160 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: and not Also, there's going to be a smaller number 161 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: who are working across different faith traditions and in deciding 162 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: that note to protect this constitutional right, we need to 163 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: protect it for all. But at the core of Christian 164 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: nationalism is the idea of privileging Christianity and a certain 165 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: type of Christianity. And so then it makes perfect sense 166 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: if for them, you know, the whole country in their 167 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: mind has been established on Christian principles, divinely established, and 168 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: so to be blessed by God, you need to align 169 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: your laws with God's will, and if you don't, your 170 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: country is going to be cursed. Our country is going 171 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: to be cursed. Right, and so there's this logic that 172 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: to actually and then you'll get teachings of you know, 173 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: the Constitution was divinely inspired, and that's somewhat of a fringe, 174 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: but not as far fringe as you might think that 175 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: kind of rhetoric. And so certainly the interpretation of some 176 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: of these constitutional rights absolutely privilege their own kind right. 177 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: And this is a very kind of us versus them, 178 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: real Americans versus the rest, and if you are not 179 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: with us, you are against us kind of rhetoric which 180 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: at its core is anti democratic. I mean, how did 181 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: they move their God from being a benevolent I'm bringing 182 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: in and taking in the poor. I am about creating 183 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: community and love and acceptance in all of these things, 184 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: and turn their God into this gun toting like caricature 185 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: of Christianity. How is that? How have people taken hold 186 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: to that? So, I mean, it really is about power, 187 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: and there's a lot that can be justified in the 188 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: name of really seizing power and grasping power and so 189 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: that you have the power to shape your realities, that 190 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: you have the power to control your world. And you 191 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: just see that as a theme over and over again 192 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: in recent history of just this grasping for power but 193 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: covering it in language of righteousness, of you know, we're 194 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: doing this for the good of all of you. Right, 195 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: trust us, and again God will bless us if you 196 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: follow these laws. But that God is not just a 197 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: benevolent deity. There is an understanding that this is also 198 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: a God of judgment, of wrath, and that you will 199 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: come under the punishment if you are disobedient, and that 200 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: we as a country have this divine calling and if 201 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: we as a country are disobedient, then we also will 202 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: suffer this punishment. And so but you do see a 203 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: lot of kind of picking and choosing when you look 204 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: at the Christian scriptures. You're right, there are a lot 205 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: of passages that are about love. God is love and 206 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: it's about the heart of the Christian Gospel traditionally has 207 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: been understood as you know, Jesus Christ divesting himself of power, 208 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: offering himself as a sacrifice for the redemption of all things. 209 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: Love your neighbor as yourself, Love your enemies, turn the 210 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: other cheek, put the sword away, right. My kingdom is 211 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: not of this earth kind of thing. That is not 212 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: what we're seeing here. And in many cases they are 213 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: very explicitly rejecting that, even mocking some of that language 214 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: that you know, my kingdom is not of this earth 215 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: like this. These are the words of Jesus Christ. But 216 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: I've seen in just recent days Christian nationalists who are 217 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: just ridiculing that language. That's the language of like softness. 218 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: You can't trust those, you know, fake Christians who are 219 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: who are who are talking about loving your enemies right now. 220 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: The idea is that this time is so desperate it 221 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: requires all at war, really a kind of spiritual war, 222 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: but also political, and so you have to be all in. 223 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: It's this kind of warrior mentality. Now. The trick is, 224 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: if you look historically, leaders in within this movement could 225 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: always identify a dire threat right there. There's a long 226 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: history of conservative evangelicals situating themselves as embattled. You know, 227 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: anti communism was just core to their emerging political identity 228 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: in the mid century, and then opposition to the civil 229 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: rights movement, especially in the American South, opposition to feminism, 230 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: to the anti war movement, and the enemies of secular humanism, 231 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: and then later radical Islam or either. There's always a threat, 232 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: and once you identify that threat, then it's so easy 233 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: to fall into this ends justify the means mentality where 234 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: you don't need to just go to war but actually 235 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: preemptive war. You want to take them down before they 236 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: take you down. This is terrifying. And what's even more 237 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: and like I mean, I don't even like it's terrifying 238 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: in so many ways because I'm trying to understand, you know, 239 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: not in the not in the segments that we've seen. 240 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: You know, I want to understand the Trump voter. It's 241 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: not it's not from that vein. It's like I need 242 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: to we need to understand what these people are preparing 243 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: for and if what you just said is this place 244 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: of desperation that they are looking in America right now 245 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,719 Speaker 1: as a religious battle field and a political battle field 246 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: and if they are willing literally and I mean literally, 247 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: to lock and load because they believe that they are 248 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: divinely anointed in doing so, in holding in holding, standing 249 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: their ground against the liberals that are coming to, you know, 250 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: turn this nation that they believe to be Christian into 251 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: this secular den of evil, then they will literally do anything, 252 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: in everything in order to keep that what they believe 253 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: to be this righteous order. How do you think that 254 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: that then the opposition deals with that reality. It's hard 255 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: because if you try to meet it had on and 256 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: call this out, you're just kind of proving their point that, 257 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, everybody's against them and everybody's attacking them. And 258 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: some of the leaders within this movement are very skilled 259 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: at a spinning things in that way. We have some 260 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: statistics that show that I think it's around sixty percent 261 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: of evangelicals believe white evangelicals believe the election is stolen, 262 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: and around a quarter of white evangelicals believe that it 263 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: might be necessary to use violence right to restore this order. 264 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: And so that's not the majority, but it's really important 265 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: to look at again this connection between the more extreme 266 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: elements and the more mainstream, if you will, and what 267 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: we do see is a lot of sense of cultural displacement. 268 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: And some of this is real, right, We do have 269 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: real demographic change happening in this country, as Robbie Jones 270 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: has called it, the end of white Christian America, right, 271 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: that has been getting a lot of attention. We see 272 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: some declining attendance and declining loyalty among younger evangelicals, and 273 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: so this is causing some alarm. But then we have 274 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: these broader cultural changes, really going back to the Obama 275 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: presidents and the sea change on LGBTQ rights with the 276 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: Obergophile decision, And at that point you kind of see 277 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: things shifting. The whole combination of and they've been using 278 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: rhetoric of embattlement for a very long time and using 279 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: it effectively, but it was taking hold in a new 280 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: way against the backdrop of these demographic changes, and with 281 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: the realization all of a sudden that not only were 282 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: they not going to be in the majority, but they 283 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: also might not have the religious liberty that they thought 284 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: they needed to live faithful lives. Now, for them to 285 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: live faithful lives isn't just a private devotional matter, it's 286 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: also a kind of culture shaping, shaping the rest of 287 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: society and shaping the nation's laws. But all of these 288 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: things really kind of came together to intensify things in 289 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: the two thousands and to really position many, even seemingly 290 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: moderate people to say, yeah, things have changed, we might 291 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: need to try some new tactics. And of course this 292 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: is what they were being told over and over again 293 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: by right wing radio, religious or otherwise by Fox News, 294 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: and so this has just been a narrative that they 295 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: have been absorbing now for a very long time. And 296 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: we're seeing the fruits of that, that real desperation and 297 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: since even among some of the more moderates of yeah, 298 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: maybe we are, maybe we are under some kind of 299 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: threat our values, right, and we need to stand up 300 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: for our values before it's too late. Get a behind 301 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on 302 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from The Daily Show 303 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes 304 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy 305 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to tackle current 306 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: topics from gentrification to gun laws and take a closer 307 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: look at how and why these topics matter. 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It is an indisputable 320 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: fact that you will love this show. Listen to Indisputable 321 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: with Doctor Rashad Ricci on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever 322 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear, 323 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: be sure to subscribe so you never miss a new episode. 324 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: Tell me how this line of thinking is different than 325 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: what the Islamic Republic is doing in Iran and has 326 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: done over the last forty years. Tell me how there 327 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: is not this very like obvious correlation, except for a 328 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: different interpretation, a different a different manuscript for the religion. 329 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,479 Speaker 1: Because this isn't. Yes, America was founded by or I 330 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: don't even know. I don't even know how to how 331 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: to frame it anymore. Yes, religious zealots came here because 332 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: they no longer wanted to pay taxes to the king, 333 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: and then they destroy an indigenous population and you know, 334 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: build a country off of the backs and labor of 335 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: indigenous people and black enslaved people. At that same time, 336 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,479 Speaker 1: it was supposed to be a secular nation, right like 337 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: where this melting pot that allows other religions to come here, 338 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: other people to be able to exist inside of their 339 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: faith with how without having to subscribe to one religion 340 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: or the other. Well, now they've said, no, no, no, 341 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: we want prayer back in school. We want God. We 342 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: want the rules that are followed to not be the 343 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: rules that are created by man, but that which we 344 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: follow that God has has intended for us to follow. 345 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: How is that different than what we are seeing right now? 346 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: And frankly, should that should we be looking out at 347 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: these countries that we are seeing that we've always looked 348 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: down on, that are making these hard pivots. You look 349 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: at Iran, what happened over the last forty years. You 350 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: look at what just happened recently with the election in 351 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: Italy and they the rise of Christio fascism there. You 352 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: look at what is happening and has happened in Hungary, like, 353 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: is this not an alarm Kristin for the rest of us? Yeah, 354 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: So I'm I'm I'm an Americanist by trading. I don't 355 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: do comparative work. So my observations here are going to be, 356 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, that of a lave person really, and they're 357 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: trying to keep up with what's happening. But uh, you know, 358 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: there there is a sense of what this is is 359 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: a battle over identity and that people are finding identity 360 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: in certain communities and certain value systems. And there's a 361 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: lot in flux right now. I mean, we're living through 362 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: a global pandemic and uh, you know, we're coming out 363 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: of in the two thousands of economic downturn, downturn? Have 364 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: we really come out of it? That seems very precarious. 365 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: We're in what may be the end of neoliberalism, not 366 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: that neoliberalism was all that great, right there, there are 367 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: a lot of really big issues happening right now that 368 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: that have a powerful kind of destabilizing effect, and people 369 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: are looking for meaning and they're looking for something solid 370 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: and right now, we do have a very powerful movement 371 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,719 Speaker 1: through media, through religious networks that that's offering certain people, 372 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: certain people a strong sense of identity, a sense of 373 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: who they are, and a sense of their own righteousness. 374 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: Right That's that it's really um. It's it's meeting a 375 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: lot of needs, I think, And so that is um 376 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: is what we're seeing in this country, and I think 377 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: that you can see other examples of that in other 378 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: countries as well. Now the form that this is taking 379 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: in many Western countries, we're seeing a rise of global 380 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: um right wing populism, and there is a kind of 381 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: common playbook here. It is elevating quote unquote traditional values, 382 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: you know, traditional gender roles, patriarchy, and patriarchy is is seen. 383 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: It's not just male leadership, but really kind of a 384 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: dominating male leadership. In many cases, it's very muscular um 385 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: masculinity that is necessary to defend faith, family, and nation 386 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: against all of these threats. And then women have to 387 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: kind of pop up that masculinity, that masculine strength through 388 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:18,239 Speaker 1: their own subservience and by being mothers to many children. Right, 389 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: this is kind of this ideal family system that's seen 390 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 1: as the foundation of the social order. And there's a 391 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: long history of that. Now, everybody who holds to those 392 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: or at least two kind of traditional family values is 393 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: not a fascist by any stretch. But what you see 394 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: right now as I'm watching, not really what's happening in Italy, 395 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: so I'm not an expert there, but I am watching 396 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: very closely today in American Christian spaces, how are they 397 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: responding to this news. And what I'm seeing is a 398 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: whole lot of celebration, have a lot of excitement, and 399 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: a whole lot of taking this clip where she's talking 400 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: about traditional family and traditional gender and you know, this 401 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,719 Speaker 1: is who I am as a woman, and and they 402 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: are saying, you know, amen to this. Finally somebody is 403 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: saying these things. And then they're saying, oh, and look 404 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: at all of the media calling them, calling her a 405 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: far right or fascists, right, and saying this is these 406 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: are just common human values. These are just you know, virtues, 407 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: and they are out to get all of us who 408 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: hold these right. And so they're really kind of whitewashing 409 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: the fact that this this is uh, you know what 410 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: post fascist, some stage of fascism, pre fascists, you know, 411 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: different kind of terminology here of what we're looking at, 412 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: but certainly there is a strong connection to historical tradition 413 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: of fascism that she represents. All of that is just 414 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: being kind of pooh pooed, and instead they're celebrating these 415 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: are our values too. And I actually see that as 416 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: very dangerous, very dangerous, because these are influential figures in 417 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: Christian spaces who are putting themselves out. They are saying 418 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: this is good, this is right, and anybody who says otherwise, right, 419 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: don't trust them. I mean, I just I don't know 420 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: what does the disruption of this narrative look like. Because 421 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 1: to me, all I see, Kristen is that this is 422 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: our future. I don't see. I don't see America, which 423 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: is for the first time in our history in twenty 424 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: twenty one, been labeled as a backsliding democracy. I don't 425 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: see America not continuing to collapse under the pressure and 426 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 1: the rhetoric and the media exacerbation of Christope white nationalism 427 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: in this country. And so I like, what does if 428 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: anything to you, what does disruption look like. It's hard 429 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: to envision successful disruption at this point. What some disruption 430 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: has looked like is people inside these communities saying no. So, 431 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, this is dangerous, calling people out inside their traditions. Unfortunately, 432 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: what happens more often than not is those voices of 433 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,479 Speaker 1: resistance are the ones who end up losing their jobs. 434 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: They're the ones who are no longer in power. They're 435 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: the ones who are voted out of office. Right, And 436 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: so we see that happening and then adding to the 437 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: difficulty as a scholar who is diagnosing this condition, right, 438 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: I'm kind of caught up in a predicament because the 439 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: clearer I can describe what is actually happening and articulate 440 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: the dangers, the anti democratic impulses that I see here 441 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: just building over time. The clearer I articulate that, the 442 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: more it kind of plays into the hands of those 443 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: who are trying to convince those moderates. There's there are 444 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: some moderates that are up for grabs here, right, are 445 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: they going to if push comes to shove, which side 446 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: are they going to choose? Right? And the tactics that 447 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: you know, to just call out what this is what 448 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: we're seeing. That's my job as a scholar, right that 449 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: takes it. You have to be direct, and you just 450 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: have to be you have to be blunt. Those may not, 451 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: in fact be the best tactics to win people over 452 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: right there. You need to come alongside. You may need 453 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: to make people not feel demonized. You need to make 454 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: people feel affirmed in their identity and not necessarily called 455 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: out for being racists or bigots, or being aligned with 456 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: racists and bigots, right, and so it's a kind of 457 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: delicate process, and I think that there's a lot of 458 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: people paying a lot of attention to calling this out, 459 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: and I think we would probably benefit from bringing some 460 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: more social psychologists into our conversations, particularly those in with 461 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: political influence or in media and messaging those for whom fighting, 462 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, this anti democratic rise of Christian nationalism. Those 463 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: folks should be very smart about which strategies they pursue. 464 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: And those may not be the same people as those 465 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: of us who are diagnosing this situation and just kind 466 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: of providing the evidence, but those who are actually trying 467 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: to address this in their communities and in the media 468 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: and in the nation at large, I think that they 469 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: need to be much more sensitive to how to combat 470 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: this resentment that is so easily stoked in field and 471 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: so easily turned against fellow citizens. Yeah, I just you know, 472 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: I'm definitely no one's social psychologist because my work is 473 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: about calling out fascism to try and wake those people 474 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: up who are not acknowledging what's happening. So it's not 475 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: for those that are embracing you know this, or trying 476 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: to call moderates back in. It's really trying to wake 477 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: up the people that are asleep at the wheel and 478 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: think that what they are witnessing abroad or what they 479 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: have heard about or read about in their history books 480 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: is something that can't possibly ever happen here. And what 481 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: we're saying is that it is happening here. We are, 482 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, we're we're two elections away from you know, 483 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: the loss of everything that we've ever come to understand 484 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: about about democracy. Um, you know, and and yes, we 485 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: have all of these acknowledgements around and God we trust 486 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: and bless our troops and all of these things that 487 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: have always been a part of American rhetoric. But at 488 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: the same time, you have been the beauty of America 489 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: has always been about the freedom of other people to 490 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: worship or not worship if that is their choice, and 491 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: if we are in moving to a place where this 492 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: is going to be mandatory and the subservient you know 493 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: of women, people of color, you know, queer people, is 494 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: going to be what is necessary in order to sustain 495 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: in this country. I just don't see how violence doesn't 496 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: become the only answer, one way or another. And I think, 497 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: to me, that is what becomes really terrifying. I'm just 498 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,959 Speaker 1: not sure where we go. Yeah. Now, I you know, 499 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: as a historian, my outside field of back way back 500 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: when I was in graduate school was in twentieth century Germany, 501 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: with a focus on the Holocaust and the German Christian movement. 502 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: And so I confess that for a long time I've 503 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: kind of had my eye on some of those those questions. 504 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: And it was not lost on me that some of 505 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: the rhetoric that I was reading this goes back. I 506 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: started this research almost twenty years ago, so I've been 507 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: following this for a long time, and some of the 508 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: rhetoric I was reading in these conservative evangelic popular books 509 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: and you know, Christian radio and so on, was not 510 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: dissimilar from the rhetoric that I was familiar with in 511 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: the German Christian movement, right the Nazi Christian movement, of 512 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 1: this kind of traditional masculinity, traditional femininity as just being 513 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: absolutely central to the strength of the nation. It needs 514 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: to be defended against enemies, and we know who those were, 515 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: and and so I've been attuned to this for a 516 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: long time. But I think but it was, honestly, it 517 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: was hard to speak to that without just you know, 518 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,399 Speaker 1: getting a lot of eye rolls or being called an 519 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: extremist myself. That has changed now we are now in 520 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: a place where we can talk about some of these things. 521 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 1: I remember back in November of twenty sixteen, I was 522 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: chair of the History department at the time, and I 523 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: actually told my colleagues, you know, we need to offer 524 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: a class on the history of fascism. And it looked 525 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 1: at me like I was joking, and I said, you know, 526 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that we are now in a fascist America, 527 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: but I can see that we are going to have 528 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: to train people to have this conversation, because this is 529 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: going to be the conversation we're going to be having. 530 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: And so we have to understand our history, we have 531 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: to understand our language, we have to understand our categories 532 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: so that we can be responsible citizens. In a democracy, 533 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: we have to be able to have those conversations. And 534 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,760 Speaker 1: the fact is, for a very long time we haven't 535 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,919 Speaker 1: really been able to have these conversations. And there are 536 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: a number of people, powerful people who are very invested 537 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: on the other side to make it impossible to have 538 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: these conversations. You know how that goes, right? You know, 539 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,479 Speaker 1: for all the talk of cancel culture on the right, 540 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, the attacks come fast and furious if you're 541 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 1: trying to surface some of these issues and the way 542 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: that words can get twisted and just misrepresented, and in 543 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: a democracy is so absolutely critical that we can have 544 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: honest conversations because we will not all agree, right we 545 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: are all We're going to have differences, in deep seated 546 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: and perhaps even reconcilable differences among ourselves. But somehow in 547 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: this society we have to find a way to use 548 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: our words and our ideas to convince each other. And 549 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: once we lose that ability or feel like we've lost 550 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 1: that ability, and the democratic norms and institutions have eroded 551 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: to the point that we feel like our words are 552 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: no longer effective, that's when it brings us to a 553 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: place of potential violence, and honestly, as a historian, I'm 554 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: still shocked that we are finding ourselves here, that even 555 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: you and I are having this conversation right now, six 556 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: years ago, I could not have imagined this. Yeah, I 557 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: am and remain terrified of what the future of this 558 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: country and the world looks like. I think that we 559 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: are entering some extraordinarily dark times, and I don't think 560 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: that America or Americans are prepared for that reality. And 561 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: I think that, in all honesty, Kristen, that by the 562 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: time that everyone does wake up, I do think that 563 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,479 Speaker 1: it will be too late that this new world order 564 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: will have found itself strengthened and legitimized. And you know, 565 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 1: the coming out of that is you know, we may 566 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: not actually see the coming out in our in our lifetime. 567 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: Is what I'm beginning to wrap my mind around. Um, 568 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: Kristen dumay, please please please do come back to woke 569 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: f I don't know if we'll ever have something good 570 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: to talk about. But nonetheless, hey, it's always very very dark, 571 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: and neither of us the other up. No, always God, 572 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,439 Speaker 1: it's always bad. But I really do enjoy our conversation 573 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: it's like I believe me, folks. The book is Jesus 574 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: and John Wayne, how white evangelicals corrupted a faith and 575 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: fractured and nation. Do pick it up. And Kristen please 576 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: do come back to Woke f We appreciate, thank you, 577 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 1: thank you so much. That is it for me today, 578 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: dear friends on Woke f As always, Power to the 579 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: people and to all the people. Power, get woke and 580 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: stay woke as fuck. Get a behind the scenes look 581 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, 582 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: an original podcast from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. 583 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the 584 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, 585 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: they use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to 586 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: gun laws and take a closer look at how and 587 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: why these topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from 588 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: The Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, 589 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. 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