WEBVTT - Luigi Mangione, the Rise of Bluesky, and High-Stakes Chokes 0:00:15.604 --> 0:00:22.804 Pushkin. Just a quick note that will be off for 0:00:22.844 --> 0:00:26.724 the holidays next week. Have a wonderful new year and 0:00:26.804 --> 0:00:36.164 we will see you in January. Welcome back to Risky Business, 0:00:36.204 --> 0:00:39.284 a show about making better decisions. I'm Maria Kanakova and. 0:00:39.244 --> 0:00:42.604 I'm Nate Silver. Today we'll talk about a man who 0:00:42.644 --> 0:00:46.244 allegedly made a very poor decision to murder a healthcare CEO. 0:00:46.364 --> 0:00:48.524 That is, of course, Luigi Vangionese. 0:00:49.364 --> 0:00:52.164 And after that we're going to talk about blue Sky 0:00:52.324 --> 0:00:56.284 social media echo chambers and how that all ties into 0:00:56.364 --> 0:01:00.324 the types of phenomenon that we're witnessing like Luigi Maggione. 0:01:01.044 --> 0:01:03.804 And after that we are going to talk about chess 0:01:04.004 --> 0:01:08.204 and choking under pressure and the importance of mental game. 0:01:08.844 --> 0:01:10.484 Let's get into. 0:01:16.404 --> 0:01:18.524 Maria. I want you to have the first word on 0:01:19.164 --> 0:01:22.564 Luigi because I want to kind of try to get 0:01:22.564 --> 0:01:24.084 in his I know we're not supposed to do this right, 0:01:24.084 --> 0:01:26.844 but like you're the psychologist, I want to kind of 0:01:26.964 --> 0:01:29.884 get your basic take on kind of what kind of 0:01:29.924 --> 0:01:30.924 headspace that he was in. 0:01:32.444 --> 0:01:37.724 Yeah, so a lot of people have been supportive of him, 0:01:37.964 --> 0:01:41.684 and I've said, you know, it's it's incredibly understandable. The 0:01:41.724 --> 0:01:46.964 guys in pain, and so he does something about it. 0:01:47.484 --> 0:01:49.644 And I have a few things to say to that. 0:01:49.764 --> 0:01:53.284 First of all, like, we don't actually know what the 0:01:53.324 --> 0:01:55.884 causes are, right, We do know he had back surgery. 0:01:56.324 --> 0:01:58.644 We know it was covered by insurance, by the way, 0:01:58.844 --> 0:02:02.604 so he did not have insurance problems in that sense. 0:02:02.924 --> 0:02:05.404 And back pain is awful. Back pain is horrible. But 0:02:05.924 --> 0:02:09.404 how many people in the world suffer from back pain 0:02:09.604 --> 0:02:12.204 and some debilitating back pain? And some people can't even 0:02:12.244 --> 0:02:15.364 have the surgery because it's not covered for them. And 0:02:15.524 --> 0:02:18.524 some people live in countries where the surgery isn't even available, 0:02:18.804 --> 0:02:21.604 or in countries where surgery is awful and the surgery 0:02:21.644 --> 0:02:25.404 would be botched, maybe in even greater pain after that. 0:02:25.684 --> 0:02:28.484 And out of those people, how many then decide, you 0:02:28.524 --> 0:02:32.164 know what, I Am going to go and kill the 0:02:32.204 --> 0:02:37.204 CEO of a healthcare company. That is not a normal reaction. 0:02:37.484 --> 0:02:40.364 I think that. I think that psychologically speaking, like there's 0:02:40.364 --> 0:02:44.164 something deeply fucked up about that being your response. And 0:02:44.204 --> 0:02:46.644 there's also something deeply fucked up about a society that 0:02:46.684 --> 0:02:48.404 looks at it and says, yeah, I get it, that's 0:02:48.444 --> 0:02:52.084 really cool. And you know, those types of violent tendencies 0:02:52.124 --> 0:02:54.604 have happened in the past, and there's been a lot 0:02:54.644 --> 0:02:57.284 of scholarship on how you know we're getting better, right, 0:02:57.284 --> 0:02:59.524 Stephen Pinker wrote a big book about it better, Angels 0:02:59.524 --> 0:03:02.524 of Our Nature, about how violence has gone down over 0:03:02.564 --> 0:03:06.844 the years, over the centuries in society, and how you 0:03:06.884 --> 0:03:11.564 know we have society and rule and governments for a reason, right, 0:03:11.604 --> 0:03:14.244 we have the legal system. And yes, sometimes you feel 0:03:14.284 --> 0:03:19.924 like everything's against you. But the correct quote unquote correct response, 0:03:20.004 --> 0:03:25.084 the moral response, the psychologically normal response, isn't to say, 0:03:25.204 --> 0:03:27.124 let me get you know, a ghost gun with a 0:03:27.164 --> 0:03:31.244 silencer and go and kill someone in cold blood allegedly. 0:03:31.804 --> 0:03:35.324 And and I think that that you know that that 0:03:35.484 --> 0:03:40.004 is in the psychological literature we call that profoundly fucked up. 0:03:40.524 --> 0:03:43.484 That is not that is not a normal response. And 0:03:43.524 --> 0:03:48.324 so I think, obviously he has major issues, and you 0:03:48.364 --> 0:03:50.844 know that's that's a problem. And there are lots of 0:03:50.884 --> 0:03:55.404 people who have major psychological issues. But the other psychological 0:03:55.444 --> 0:03:59.324 problem is in society lionizing this and glorifying it. And 0:03:59.724 --> 0:04:01.644 by the way, let me just like caveat this by saying, 0:04:01.684 --> 0:04:03.924 I believe in universal healthcare. I think that they are 0:04:04.004 --> 0:04:07.284 horrible problems with the healthcare system in the United States. 0:04:07.324 --> 0:04:09.804 I think no one should be denied coverage, you know, 0:04:09.804 --> 0:04:12.364 I think this should be a fundamental human right. So like, 0:04:12.444 --> 0:04:14.924 let's just put that aside. But the answer to that 0:04:15.044 --> 0:04:18.204 isn't you know, let's go out and shoot people. And 0:04:18.364 --> 0:04:20.124 the first thing I thought about, and I'm not the 0:04:20.164 --> 0:04:23.644 only one, is like the French Revolution, right, and when 0:04:23.684 --> 0:04:26.644 people were like, yeah, justifiable, let's go behead some people. 0:04:26.964 --> 0:04:29.964 You know what happened to those executioners who did the beheadings. 0:04:30.284 --> 0:04:33.204 They got beheaded, right. They also died after in the 0:04:33.564 --> 0:04:37.724 in the counter revolution, the Thermadorian reaction. So you know, 0:04:37.764 --> 0:04:40.364 there's a lot of historical precedent that says that this 0:04:40.484 --> 0:04:43.924 ain't you know, yeah, sure society might change eventually, but 0:04:44.484 --> 0:04:46.844 this ain't the way to go about it. And there 0:04:46.884 --> 0:04:50.444 are I think we've advanced past that, and I hope 0:04:50.444 --> 0:04:52.964 we keep advancing past that rather than regressing. And I 0:04:53.004 --> 0:04:54.884 see a lot of signs of regression right now. 0:04:55.884 --> 0:04:57.724 Yeah, if you look at the number of deaths and 0:04:57.884 --> 0:05:00.044 armed conflict around the world, it kind of bottomed out 0:05:00.564 --> 0:05:02.364 in the early two thousands and that has since risen. 0:05:02.364 --> 0:05:05.364 There's actually a lot of people dying in Ukraine, for example, 0:05:05.364 --> 0:05:10.284 there are interstate and interrustate conflicts in Africa. Yeah, I 0:05:10.324 --> 0:05:15.084 don't know. I think people are not necessarily internally all 0:05:15.124 --> 0:05:17.724 that much more civilized than they than they ever were. 0:05:19.564 --> 0:05:22.164 And you know, the fact that you can have this 0:05:22.884 --> 0:05:25.044 bountiful life in different ways, and the fact that you 0:05:25.084 --> 0:05:26.644 have like a legal system, and the fact that you 0:05:26.684 --> 0:05:30.764 have kind of diplomatic ways of resolving conflicts like the 0:05:30.764 --> 0:05:33.284 courts or whatever else, or a negotiation of some kind 0:05:34.604 --> 0:05:39.484 like that goes a long way, you know. I mean, 0:05:39.484 --> 0:05:43.444 this is clearly a guy who is quite smart. He 0:05:43.484 --> 0:05:45.644 was valedictorian of his high school class. He went to 0:05:46.004 --> 0:05:52.644 University of Penn. He read pretty widely. Clearly a guy 0:05:52.684 --> 0:05:57.244 who is capable of profound rationalization for extremely violent behavior. 0:05:57.284 --> 0:06:00.364 I mean, the timeline he gave only makes a certain 0:06:00.404 --> 0:06:03.564 amount of sense right where where he actually was like 0:06:03.564 --> 0:06:06.484 texting friends that Hey, actually the surgery worked out pretty 0:06:06.524 --> 0:06:09.044 well and I'm back to being able to do some 0:06:09.044 --> 0:06:10.484 of the things used to be able to do. I mean, 0:06:10.484 --> 0:06:14.484 people have inferred that, you know, he's at the age 0:06:14.484 --> 0:06:16.684 what's he twenty six, twenty seven, he's at the age 0:06:16.684 --> 0:06:20.244 where if you have signs of schizophrenia. Yeah, then that 0:06:20.284 --> 0:06:23.884 tends to be an inflection point for schizophrenia. He had 0:06:23.924 --> 0:06:29.004 also experimented with psychedelic drugs, which which I have no 0:06:29.044 --> 0:06:31.764 problem with people doing, but tends to be a bad 0:06:31.764 --> 0:06:33.164 idea for people with schizophrenia. 0:06:33.284 --> 0:06:35.364 Yes, we know that they're a trigger. By the way, 0:06:35.364 --> 0:06:37.564 there's a lot of research on this. So if you 0:06:37.644 --> 0:06:41.244 have a tendency towards schizophrenia, and you know, if you 0:06:41.284 --> 0:06:45.884 have that genetic predisposition, psychedelics and there are other drugs, 0:06:45.884 --> 0:06:48.404 but psychedelics are especially a trigger for it. So that's 0:06:48.404 --> 0:06:51.844 something that can actually precipitate the psychotic rank. Please continue it. 0:06:52.364 --> 0:06:53.924 I mean, I also don't think the critique of the 0:06:53.964 --> 0:06:57.684 healthcare system is particularly good, right, I mean, the problem 0:06:57.724 --> 0:07:01.204 is that so the US spends a lot more on 0:07:01.284 --> 0:07:03.804 healthcare relative to the quality of outcomes we have than 0:07:03.964 --> 0:07:09.164 other westernized, industrialized countries. You know, the reasons for those 0:07:09.164 --> 0:07:12.964 are much debated. Part of it has to do with 0:07:13.004 --> 0:07:17.044 a lot of kind of profit built in for pharmaceutical 0:07:17.044 --> 0:07:19.564 companies that develop actually very effective drugs like we saw 0:07:19.644 --> 0:07:22.804 in Covid or whatnot. But you know, for whatever reason, 0:07:22.804 --> 0:07:25.964 it tends to be subsidized by American taxpayers a little 0:07:26.004 --> 0:07:28.524 bit more some it's because of incentives, right, if you're 0:07:28.524 --> 0:07:30.444 not kind of paying out of pocket for things, and 0:07:30.524 --> 0:07:33.484 you might consume more care than you want. And some 0:07:33.804 --> 0:07:37.004 very small number of people consume a very high percentage 0:07:37.004 --> 0:07:39.844 of resources in the healthcare system, some of whom are 0:07:40.484 --> 0:07:44.204 in really bad shape and deserve it, but some of 0:07:44.204 --> 0:07:46.924 them just kind of are, you know, consuming healthcare goods. 0:07:46.964 --> 0:07:49.564 It's like a luxury good and things like that. And so, 0:07:50.244 --> 0:07:52.644 you know, it is the job of insurers to like 0:07:53.284 --> 0:07:58.444 track down fraudulent payments or track down procedures that they 0:07:58.484 --> 0:08:03.284 be medically unnecessary. But like if you don't, if your 0:08:03.284 --> 0:08:06.324 critque is the cost of health care, then you shouldn't 0:08:06.324 --> 0:08:10.684 be complaining necessarily about the insurance companies that have a 0:08:10.724 --> 0:08:15.644 relatively modest profit margin. Here, I'm a neoliberal capitalist. I 0:08:15.644 --> 0:08:18.764 suppose I do think the healthcare system is fucked up. 0:08:19.044 --> 0:08:22.884 I'm not sure that I think, you know, socialized medicine 0:08:22.924 --> 0:08:25.244 is a good idea. I think it wouldn't be politically viable, 0:08:25.484 --> 0:08:28.524 among other things. But I you know, this is not 0:08:28.564 --> 0:08:32.804 like a very mature I would say, critique of what 0:08:32.844 --> 0:08:36.684 the causes of the pain points in the healthcare system are, 0:08:36.964 --> 0:08:39.964 I would say despite being a smart eye overall, and 0:08:39.964 --> 0:08:41.564 that probably fits a pattern. By the way, Also, a 0:08:41.604 --> 0:08:43.884 guy who like is a little bit in kind of 0:08:43.884 --> 0:08:46.604 what we call the gray tribe people who he's reading 0:08:47.204 --> 0:08:50.444 some of these kind of like centrist rationalist newslayers, probably 0:08:50.444 --> 0:08:53.204 subscribed to a lot of substacks. For example, maybe listen 0:08:53.244 --> 0:08:56.044 to this show if you're listening in jail, Hello, Luigi, 0:08:57.364 --> 0:08:59.404 we vibe on the program. Probably not, I think, probably 0:08:59.444 --> 0:08:59.804 a bad idea. 0:08:59.884 --> 0:09:02.124 Yeah, I don't think so. I'm you know, I draw 0:09:02.164 --> 0:09:05.524 the line at giving a platform to age. 0:09:05.124 --> 0:09:09.244 A legend you never know, you never know. 0:09:12.044 --> 0:09:14.524 But but yeah, no, I mean I think I think 0:09:14.524 --> 0:09:18.004 we both agree healthcare system profoundly fucked up. It's not 0:09:18.124 --> 0:09:20.764 just the insurance companies, it's the hospitals. I mean, there 0:09:20.764 --> 0:09:22.124 are a lot of things that are wrong. But I 0:09:22.124 --> 0:09:26.044 will also say that when people have really serious problems 0:09:26.084 --> 0:09:28.564 I've had you know, I've had friends and my parents 0:09:28.644 --> 0:09:31.404 have had friends. You know, older health issues, cancer, you know, 0:09:31.924 --> 0:09:35.244 brain tumors, all sorts of things go wrong in Canada 0:09:35.524 --> 0:09:37.724 and in Europe. Do you know where they come to 0:09:37.884 --> 0:09:40.764 the United States to get the set, to get the surgery, 0:09:40.804 --> 0:09:42.884 because that's where you can get that standard of your 0:09:42.884 --> 0:09:45.604 care and you can't get it. Sure, they're experts everywhere, 0:09:46.244 --> 0:09:51.604 but in general, you know, the quality the expertise is here. 0:09:51.644 --> 0:09:54.724 And that's also here for a reason. I, like I said, 0:09:54.724 --> 0:09:58.324 I firmly believe in universal health care, socialized medicine. Probably 0:09:58.444 --> 0:10:00.684 not quite the way to go. I have no idea 0:10:00.684 --> 0:10:02.204 how to solve this, right. This is why I am 0:10:02.244 --> 0:10:05.604 not the CEO of a healthcare company or in charge 0:10:05.644 --> 0:10:08.284 of health care. This is not my area of expertise. 0:10:08.324 --> 0:10:11.524 But what I what is my area of expertise as 0:10:11.524 --> 0:10:15.084 a psychological element of this, and it's really you know, 0:10:15.324 --> 0:10:17.844 I think the human brain has this tendency and I 0:10:17.844 --> 0:10:20.924 think we see this in Luigi to just simplify, right, 0:10:20.964 --> 0:10:25.724 black and white heroes, villains, bad good, this person must go. 0:10:26.804 --> 0:10:31.644 There's just this tendency to simplification and avoidance of nuance, 0:10:31.764 --> 0:10:36.364 like Shades of Gray eight people's strong point a lot 0:10:36.364 --> 0:10:38.524 of times, and I think that's getting much worse, and 0:10:38.644 --> 0:10:42.164 especially in the social media world, you know, where kind 0:10:42.204 --> 0:10:44.884 of all of these things are being amplified, where people 0:10:44.924 --> 0:10:48.484 get into their little silos, into their little bubbles, and 0:10:48.524 --> 0:10:52.244 they see these things reflected that simplification that like black 0:10:52.244 --> 0:10:56.364 and white thinking, that hero villain thinking is getting overblown. 0:10:56.404 --> 0:10:58.564 I'd like to see people start studying this. Right now, 0:10:58.604 --> 0:11:00.964 I'm no longer in academia, but I'd really like to 0:11:01.004 --> 0:11:04.764 see some work done on kind of the rise of 0:11:04.804 --> 0:11:08.324 this type of simplistic thinking and simplistic outlooks on the 0:11:08.324 --> 0:11:11.084 world as it relates to social media. 0:11:11.684 --> 0:11:14.244 I don't think it's very widespread. There was some poll 0:11:14.284 --> 0:11:17.484 that came out that found that only eighteen percent of 0:11:17.484 --> 0:11:20.764 people approve of Luigi Mangioni, and like seventy percent disapprove. 0:11:20.844 --> 0:11:23.804 I'm surprised that eighteen percent people have an opinion about 0:11:23.844 --> 0:11:26.044 him or know who he is. Right, he could sound 0:11:26.164 --> 0:11:30.164 like some Italian movie star from the forties or something 0:11:30.204 --> 0:11:30.444 like that. 0:11:30.564 --> 0:11:33.724 Right, So, just to clarify what I was thinking, I 0:11:33.884 --> 0:11:36.164 was what I was talking about was actually Luigi himself 0:11:36.364 --> 0:11:38.844 and the reason he thought this was a good idea, 0:11:38.924 --> 0:11:40.724 that his view of the world is this kind of 0:11:40.724 --> 0:11:44.124 black and white view. And I think that, but as yes, 0:11:44.364 --> 0:11:46.764 it also applies to the people who support him. I 0:11:46.764 --> 0:11:50.124 think that, Yeah, it is a widespread, kind of a 0:11:50.164 --> 0:11:54.604 widespread fallacy, and our brains do work that way, and 0:11:54.644 --> 0:11:56.964 we have to constantly fight against it, and the things 0:11:56.964 --> 0:11:59.844 that actually help buttress against that are things that are 0:12:00.124 --> 0:12:05.044 disappearing from the world, like critical thinking skills and reading 0:12:05.084 --> 0:12:07.964 literature and you know, things that things that actually kind 0:12:08.004 --> 0:12:10.284 of force you to slow down and to think and 0:12:10.324 --> 0:12:13.364 to reflect. And instead we're i think, living in a 0:12:13.404 --> 0:12:16.804 world where we're reacting and thinking very quickly and not 0:12:16.884 --> 0:12:21.124 reading deeply and consuming you know, very simplistic media a 0:12:21.164 --> 0:12:24.044 lot of the times, and that is I think that's 0:12:24.084 --> 0:12:25.964 not a good that's not a good background. 0:12:26.684 --> 0:12:29.804 Yeah, what's weird is like it was. It's not like 0:12:29.844 --> 0:12:32.244 one of these like zodiac killer types where he plots 0:12:32.324 --> 0:12:35.284 us out for years. I don't think right, Like he 0:12:35.324 --> 0:12:39.484 wrote a manifesto that was like not very not the 0:12:39.524 --> 0:12:41.764 best manifesto. I give it. 0:12:42.724 --> 0:12:44.164 I rate your manifestos. 0:12:47.164 --> 0:12:49.644 But he's like, yeah, I haven't really finished thinking about this, 0:12:49.844 --> 0:12:51.964 but you know whatever, there's not time. It's like, okay, 0:12:51.964 --> 0:12:58.204 come on, man, okay, we're I'm going to talk about 0:12:58.204 --> 0:13:00.364 blueskind of moment. I'm interested in the phenomenon of like 0:13:01.804 --> 0:13:03.764 the certain segment I guess you call it of the left. 0:13:04.044 --> 0:13:05.844 I'm not sure why it's even necessarily left exactly. I 0:13:05.884 --> 0:13:08.004 think it's just kind of like I think it's everything 0:13:08.164 --> 0:13:12.404 crazy attention demanding people for sure. 0:13:12.684 --> 0:13:14.804 Well you also I think I don't know if I've 0:13:14.844 --> 0:13:17.164 said this on the show before, but I've definitely talked 0:13:17.164 --> 0:13:19.684 to you about it. Which is my view that as 0:13:19.684 --> 0:13:22.244 you get to that, you know, the political spectrum isn't 0:13:22.284 --> 0:13:25.044 a line, it's a circle, right and ship to the 0:13:25.084 --> 0:13:28.324 extremes of the of the right and the left, they meet, 0:13:28.764 --> 0:13:34.284 right and those like total extremists are are actually basically 0:13:34.724 --> 0:13:37.004 the same thing. It just it just comes full circle. 0:13:37.924 --> 0:13:38.364 That's yeah. 0:13:38.404 --> 0:13:39.884 I mean, I mean there are the demands. There's like 0:13:39.924 --> 0:13:44.604 how much trust do you have in the system? Right, Yeah, 0:13:44.644 --> 0:13:48.764 it's been weird. You've seen like democratic politicians ranging from 0:13:47.884 --> 0:13:53.764 U AOC to Elizabeth Warren to Chris Murphy, who's this 0:13:53.884 --> 0:13:56.644 very like whitebread senator from Connecticut who's now trying to 0:13:56.644 --> 0:14:00.924 be like the cool dad. You know, he's lame. He's 0:14:00.964 --> 0:14:03.044 like trying to run for the president of twenty twenty eight, right, 0:14:03.044 --> 0:14:05.884 and he's like from the ultimate neoliberal insurance broker state. 0:14:06.244 --> 0:14:09.124 You don't like the dad vibe. Walls now. 0:14:10.564 --> 0:14:14.644 Went to Williams College, you know, which it's not the 0:14:14.884 --> 0:14:19.964 populist hotbed exactly, Whereas Bernie Sanders, who is a much 0:14:20.004 --> 0:14:23.524 better politician than all of the three people I mentioned 0:14:23.524 --> 0:14:26.164 together multiplied by fifty. I mean, Bernie Sanders has a competent. 0:14:26.164 --> 0:14:28.564 I mean, Aosc's a pretty good politician. I take that back. 0:14:28.564 --> 0:14:32.404 I think Elizabeth WARN's a borderline terrible politician and Chris 0:14:32.484 --> 0:14:36.044 Murphy is worse. Aos' is a pretty smart politician. So 0:14:36.084 --> 0:14:38.604 that was suppressing to see. But like, but Bernie Sanders, 0:14:38.644 --> 0:14:42.564 who like has built this coalition and you know, got 0:14:42.604 --> 0:14:45.484 a lot of things, gotten minimum wage increases in a 0:14:45.524 --> 0:14:48.524 lot of places, came not within a hair's breath, but 0:14:48.804 --> 0:14:51.724 very respectably against Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen. I mean, 0:14:51.764 --> 0:14:53.684 like you know, he was like, yeah, this is not 0:14:53.764 --> 0:14:57.204 the way into into people's hearts on this issue, right, 0:14:58.684 --> 0:15:00.804 And like also, like, if you want to talk more 0:15:00.804 --> 0:15:03.004 about healthcare, by the way, just to give you some context, right, 0:15:03.004 --> 0:15:05.564 this is a real issue. The United States, according to 0:15:05.604 --> 0:15:09.044 the Peter J. Peterson Foundation, spends seven hundred and forty 0:15:09.084 --> 0:15:13.884 teen dollar per year on healthcare compared to and fifty 0:15:13.924 --> 0:15:16.084 dollars of the other wealthy countries. 0:15:16.164 --> 0:15:18.244 This is per person, right, per capity. 0:15:17.964 --> 0:15:21.844 Yes, so twice as much. Ish about one thousand dollars 0:15:21.884 --> 0:15:25.004 of that is in administrative costs, which is not all 0:15:25.044 --> 0:15:27.924 of it or most of it, but compares toon averager 0:15:28.004 --> 0:15:31.484 two hundred and thirteen dollars and these other wealthy countries Australia, 0:15:31.644 --> 0:15:36.244 can Belgium and so forth. So there's a real issue here. 0:15:36.244 --> 0:15:39.204 But you don't have to like just start talking more 0:15:39.204 --> 0:15:41.484 about healthcare. You don't have to say we're talking more 0:15:41.484 --> 0:15:45.564 about healthcare because it's fucking lunatic who allegedly killed somebody, right, 0:15:45.804 --> 0:15:48.644 just talk more about healthcare, and like, don't like rationalize 0:15:48.644 --> 0:15:51.484 it in your little bubble. And it's just I don't know, 0:15:51.644 --> 0:15:52.684 it's just very weird to me. 0:15:53.124 --> 0:15:56.404 Yeah, I think that's I think that's exactly right. And 0:15:56.444 --> 0:15:58.964 I think on that note, shall we take a break 0:15:58.964 --> 0:16:13.084 and then talk about social media and caris guy. Yeah, 0:16:13.804 --> 0:16:16.884 So over the last few months since October, blue Sky 0:16:17.004 --> 0:16:20.284 has gained almost two and a half million users, and 0:16:20.524 --> 0:16:24.044 Twitter or X as it's now known, has lost basically 0:16:24.044 --> 0:16:27.444 the same amount two point seven million. So we're seeing 0:16:27.724 --> 0:16:31.444 kind of Twitter x is still ten times bigger than 0:16:31.484 --> 0:16:34.164 blue Sky, but we are seeing something that looks like 0:16:34.204 --> 0:16:37.564 it might be a trend. Before we get into it, Nate, 0:16:37.604 --> 0:16:39.004 do you have a blue Sky account? 0:16:39.244 --> 0:16:42.724 I do, but I never use it, and I don't 0:16:42.764 --> 0:16:46.604 know what kind of fucking psychedelics you drugs you'd have 0:16:46.604 --> 0:16:47.924 to give me to want to spend a moment on 0:16:48.004 --> 0:16:48.484 blue Sky. 0:16:49.844 --> 0:16:52.044 So I knew you had a blue Sky account. I 0:16:52.044 --> 0:16:54.804 thought it was you because I found you with zero posts. 0:16:54.964 --> 0:16:57.324 But I have a blue Sky account. I still have 0:16:57.444 --> 0:17:00.844 my Twitter account, but I made a blue Sky account 0:17:00.844 --> 0:17:05.604 back when it was very early invite only, so sick brag. Yeah, 0:17:05.724 --> 0:17:07.924 I know, I know, but I've had one for a 0:17:08.004 --> 0:17:10.804 while and I've had periods of activity and dormancy, right, 0:17:11.004 --> 0:17:13.364 so I was active at the beginning then, like I 0:17:13.404 --> 0:17:16.404 was like, screw this. You know, it's too many social 0:17:16.444 --> 0:17:19.564 media platforms. You've got Twitter, You've got Masta don do 0:17:19.564 --> 0:17:20.684 you remember Masta Don? 0:17:21.324 --> 0:17:25.284 You've got I've play loyled Twitter, you know, you've. 0:17:25.084 --> 0:17:26.964 Got You've got blue Sky. You know, there are all 0:17:26.964 --> 0:17:28.564 these things, and I'm like, you know, fuck this, Like 0:17:28.644 --> 0:17:30.884 I can't, I can't maintain all of these different accounts. 0:17:31.564 --> 0:17:35.524 But I actually re kind of recommitted to blue Sky 0:17:36.884 --> 0:17:41.604 probably about oh, I don't know how many months ago, three, 0:17:41.684 --> 0:17:45.404 four or five months ago, because Twitter was getting for me. 0:17:45.964 --> 0:17:49.364 So your experience is probably different because as someone with 0:17:49.444 --> 0:17:53.404 over a million followers, you were you got the you know, 0:17:53.524 --> 0:17:56.644 check blue check mark, and your your Twitter experience is 0:17:57.004 --> 0:17:59.524 a premium one. Mine is not. I refuse to pay 0:17:59.564 --> 0:18:02.844 for a blue check mark. And so my Twitter just 0:18:02.884 --> 0:18:06.964 became so unusable in terms of spam, in terms of 0:18:07.124 --> 0:18:12.484 just like horrific content that I get, boughts, all sorts 0:18:12.484 --> 0:18:15.164 of things, ads that I really don't want to see, 0:18:15.684 --> 0:18:19.364 and Blue Sky became kind of a much cleaner way 0:18:19.444 --> 0:18:21.844 of sharing. That's it. I didn't leave Twitter because I 0:18:21.884 --> 0:18:24.444 actually think that that would have been a mistake. And 0:18:24.684 --> 0:18:27.964 I think that it's a very bad idea to kind 0:18:28.004 --> 0:18:31.564 of leave the party when you disagree with things that 0:18:31.604 --> 0:18:33.684 are going on, because then you missed the discourse, right, 0:18:33.724 --> 0:18:36.044 You missed the conversation. You have no idea what's going on. 0:18:36.444 --> 0:18:38.444 And the worst thing you can do at that point 0:18:38.764 --> 0:18:42.844 is like go off into your bubble in protests, because 0:18:42.964 --> 0:18:44.364 that's not going to make anything better. 0:18:45.804 --> 0:18:48.124 I'd much rather hang around the Twitter party than the 0:18:48.124 --> 0:18:50.444 Blue Sky party. And by the way, I have been like, 0:18:51.084 --> 0:18:56.164 you haven't tried the Blue Sky harass as much as 0:18:56.244 --> 0:18:59.764 almost any person on Twitter. I'm just a little windy 0:18:59.804 --> 0:19:02.404 baby about it, you know what I mean. But like, 0:19:02.404 --> 0:19:04.884 in terms of like having people say awful things to me, 0:19:04.924 --> 0:19:06.524 it happens to me all the time on Twitter. Maybe 0:19:06.564 --> 0:19:09.244 a little bit less than it did in previous ethics, 0:19:09.524 --> 0:19:11.404 a little bit less than it did in an election year, 0:19:12.764 --> 0:19:14.564 but like you know, and I dish it out too, 0:19:14.764 --> 0:19:17.884 to be fair, But yeah, I've been a trending topic 0:19:17.924 --> 0:19:20.284 more times than I account for. I cancount for like 0:19:20.324 --> 0:19:26.044 totally innocuous things, right, But I would still rather have 0:19:26.764 --> 0:19:29.804 Twitter in als decrepit form. And there's lots of conspiracy 0:19:29.844 --> 0:19:33.444 theories and and you know, the four you algorithm will 0:19:33.484 --> 0:19:36.844 do kind of anything to get your engagement. You know, 0:19:36.924 --> 0:19:38.804 you get lots It doesn't apparently know what I'm gay. 0:19:38.844 --> 0:19:42.044 I get like lots of like smutty female stuff, right 0:19:42.084 --> 0:19:44.004 and things like that, And like it hasn't quite figured 0:19:44.044 --> 0:19:47.724 me out exactly. And I'm probably kind of gradually using 0:19:47.724 --> 0:19:50.164 Twitter like less similars now, and then I'll have days 0:19:50.204 --> 0:19:51.924 where I forget to check Twitter first thing in the morning, 0:19:51.924 --> 0:19:53.764 even though it's kind of part of my routine, to 0:19:53.764 --> 0:19:54.204 be honest. 0:19:54.244 --> 0:19:55.764 But like, well, let me. 0:19:55.724 --> 0:19:59.724 Back up a little bit right Twitter. I mean I 0:19:59.724 --> 0:20:01.804 first had a Twitter account in two thousand and eight, 0:20:02.044 --> 0:20:05.084 and this is kind of like before everybody is quite 0:20:05.124 --> 0:20:09.204 so online as they are now, and so so you 0:20:09.444 --> 0:20:12.164 kind of have like the founders are kind of tech 0:20:12.284 --> 0:20:14.844 nerds in a different way, or like news nerds, people 0:20:14.844 --> 0:20:16.724 who are working in the journals and ministry in some 0:20:16.804 --> 0:20:21.004 ways and trying to find new platforms. And when you 0:20:21.044 --> 0:20:23.524 have that, then you know, one nice thing about that 0:20:23.684 --> 0:20:27.684 is that nerds tend to be I don't know, there's 0:20:27.684 --> 0:20:30.444 a camaraderie with other nerds, right. If you're a tech geek, 0:20:30.484 --> 0:20:34.244 then you can like, you know, tolerate certain things. They 0:20:34.404 --> 0:20:38.324 tend to be pretty center left, although not necessarily that 0:20:38.364 --> 0:20:44.204 political quote unquote. Around twenty fifteen you begin to see 0:20:45.524 --> 0:20:47.764 you know, a lot more media organizations actually before that 0:20:47.804 --> 0:20:50.524 really right, and then you kind of had and you know, 0:20:50.524 --> 0:20:53.124 I don't know where you could like pinpoint the reasons 0:20:53.124 --> 0:21:00.124 for this, but you had a certain type of very pedantic, progressive, 0:21:00.444 --> 0:21:06.164 skuldly left wing commentator become very prominent on Twitter. It's like, 0:21:06.684 --> 0:21:09.324 I call them knits, but they're worse because anyway, it's 0:21:09.604 --> 0:21:12.844 my least favorite type of people in the world. And 0:21:12.884 --> 0:21:14.884 they're all at Blue Sky and they all are in 0:21:14.924 --> 0:21:16.804 a circle jerk with one another, and like, I just 0:21:16.844 --> 0:21:19.964 can't imagine, like you would have to pay me millions 0:21:20.004 --> 0:21:21.964 of dollars per year to be like an active Blue 0:21:21.964 --> 0:21:26.284 Sky community member. Now, look, if if we got to 0:21:26.284 --> 0:21:26.884 a point. 0:21:26.764 --> 0:21:29.124 Let's say, you really feel it, tell us how you really. 0:21:29.204 --> 0:21:32.204 By the way, Blue Sky's numbers are not really rising anymore. 0:21:32.244 --> 0:21:35.404 The number of daily likes, this is according to bsky 0:21:35.484 --> 0:21:41.684 dot jazzco dot dev backslash stats, actually peaked on November eighteenth. 0:21:41.764 --> 0:21:43.564 It looks like and has now. The number of daily 0:21:43.644 --> 0:21:47.404 likes has fallen by about thirty percent since the peak. 0:21:47.444 --> 0:21:50.364 The number of daily posters fallen by about the same amount. 0:21:50.404 --> 0:21:53.404 The number of daily followers fallen even more than that. Right, 0:21:53.444 --> 0:21:57.084 and so so I think you actually have a self 0:21:57.124 --> 0:22:01.924 limiting bubble here, right. Clearly, it's a compelling product to 0:22:02.124 --> 0:22:04.484 a certain type. Actually to more than one group. 0:22:04.564 --> 0:22:04.764 Right. 0:22:05.324 --> 0:22:10.964 There are these kind of like fringy more left wing people. 0:22:11.084 --> 0:22:12.724 I would say that's one group. There's also kind of 0:22:12.724 --> 0:22:16.084 like the resistance liberals. But you kind of combine the 0:22:16.244 --> 0:22:19.724