1 00:00:15,604 --> 00:00:22,804 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note that will be off for 2 00:00:22,844 --> 00:00:26,724 Speaker 1: the holidays next week. Have a wonderful new year and 3 00:00:26,804 --> 00:00:36,164 Speaker 1: we will see you in January. Welcome back to Risky Business, 4 00:00:36,204 --> 00:00:39,284 Speaker 1: a show about making better decisions. I'm Maria Kanakova and. 5 00:00:39,244 --> 00:00:42,604 Speaker 2: I'm Nate Silver. Today we'll talk about a man who 6 00:00:42,644 --> 00:00:46,244 Speaker 2: allegedly made a very poor decision to murder a healthcare CEO. 7 00:00:46,364 --> 00:00:48,524 Speaker 2: That is, of course, Luigi Vangionese. 8 00:00:49,364 --> 00:00:52,164 Speaker 1: And after that we're going to talk about blue Sky 9 00:00:52,324 --> 00:00:56,284 Speaker 1: social media echo chambers and how that all ties into 10 00:00:56,364 --> 00:01:00,324 Speaker 1: the types of phenomenon that we're witnessing like Luigi Maggione. 11 00:01:01,044 --> 00:01:03,804 Speaker 1: And after that we are going to talk about chess 12 00:01:04,004 --> 00:01:08,204 Speaker 1: and choking under pressure and the importance of mental game. 13 00:01:08,844 --> 00:01:10,484 Speaker 1: Let's get into. 14 00:01:16,404 --> 00:01:18,524 Speaker 2: Maria. I want you to have the first word on 15 00:01:19,164 --> 00:01:22,564 Speaker 2: Luigi because I want to kind of try to get 16 00:01:22,564 --> 00:01:24,084 Speaker 2: in his I know we're not supposed to do this right, 17 00:01:24,084 --> 00:01:26,844 Speaker 2: but like you're the psychologist, I want to kind of 18 00:01:26,964 --> 00:01:29,884 Speaker 2: get your basic take on kind of what kind of 19 00:01:29,924 --> 00:01:30,924 Speaker 2: headspace that he was in. 20 00:01:32,444 --> 00:01:37,724 Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot of people have been supportive of him, 21 00:01:37,964 --> 00:01:41,684 Speaker 1: and I've said, you know, it's it's incredibly understandable. The 22 00:01:41,724 --> 00:01:46,964 Speaker 1: guys in pain, and so he does something about it. 23 00:01:47,484 --> 00:01:49,644 Speaker 1: And I have a few things to say to that. 24 00:01:49,764 --> 00:01:53,284 Speaker 1: First of all, like, we don't actually know what the 25 00:01:53,324 --> 00:01:55,884 Speaker 1: causes are, right, We do know he had back surgery. 26 00:01:56,324 --> 00:01:58,644 Speaker 1: We know it was covered by insurance, by the way, 27 00:01:58,844 --> 00:02:02,604 Speaker 1: so he did not have insurance problems in that sense. 28 00:02:02,924 --> 00:02:05,404 Speaker 1: And back pain is awful. Back pain is horrible. But 29 00:02:05,924 --> 00:02:09,404 Speaker 1: how many people in the world suffer from back pain 30 00:02:09,604 --> 00:02:12,204 Speaker 1: and some debilitating back pain? And some people can't even 31 00:02:12,244 --> 00:02:15,364 Speaker 1: have the surgery because it's not covered for them. And 32 00:02:15,524 --> 00:02:18,524 Speaker 1: some people live in countries where the surgery isn't even available, 33 00:02:18,804 --> 00:02:21,604 Speaker 1: or in countries where surgery is awful and the surgery 34 00:02:21,644 --> 00:02:25,404 Speaker 1: would be botched, maybe in even greater pain after that. 35 00:02:25,684 --> 00:02:28,484 Speaker 1: And out of those people, how many then decide, you 36 00:02:28,524 --> 00:02:32,164 Speaker 1: know what, I Am going to go and kill the 37 00:02:32,204 --> 00:02:37,204 Speaker 1: CEO of a healthcare company. That is not a normal reaction. 38 00:02:37,484 --> 00:02:40,364 Speaker 1: I think that. I think that psychologically speaking, like there's 39 00:02:40,364 --> 00:02:44,164 Speaker 1: something deeply fucked up about that being your response. And 40 00:02:44,204 --> 00:02:46,644 Speaker 1: there's also something deeply fucked up about a society that 41 00:02:46,684 --> 00:02:48,404 Speaker 1: looks at it and says, yeah, I get it, that's 42 00:02:48,444 --> 00:02:52,084 Speaker 1: really cool. And you know, those types of violent tendencies 43 00:02:52,124 --> 00:02:54,604 Speaker 1: have happened in the past, and there's been a lot 44 00:02:54,644 --> 00:02:57,284 Speaker 1: of scholarship on how you know we're getting better, right, 45 00:02:57,284 --> 00:02:59,524 Speaker 1: Stephen Pinker wrote a big book about it better, Angels 46 00:02:59,524 --> 00:03:02,524 Speaker 1: of Our Nature, about how violence has gone down over 47 00:03:02,564 --> 00:03:06,844 Speaker 1: the years, over the centuries in society, and how you 48 00:03:06,884 --> 00:03:11,564 Speaker 1: know we have society and rule and governments for a reason, right, 49 00:03:11,604 --> 00:03:14,244 Speaker 1: we have the legal system. And yes, sometimes you feel 50 00:03:14,284 --> 00:03:19,924 Speaker 1: like everything's against you. But the correct quote unquote correct response, 51 00:03:20,004 --> 00:03:25,084 Speaker 1: the moral response, the psychologically normal response, isn't to say, 52 00:03:25,204 --> 00:03:27,124 Speaker 1: let me get you know, a ghost gun with a 53 00:03:27,164 --> 00:03:31,244 Speaker 1: silencer and go and kill someone in cold blood allegedly. 54 00:03:31,804 --> 00:03:35,324 Speaker 1: And and I think that that you know that that 55 00:03:35,484 --> 00:03:40,004 Speaker 1: is in the psychological literature we call that profoundly fucked up. 56 00:03:40,524 --> 00:03:43,484 Speaker 1: That is not that is not a normal response. And 57 00:03:43,524 --> 00:03:48,324 Speaker 1: so I think, obviously he has major issues, and you 58 00:03:48,364 --> 00:03:50,844 Speaker 1: know that's that's a problem. And there are lots of 59 00:03:50,884 --> 00:03:55,404 Speaker 1: people who have major psychological issues. But the other psychological 60 00:03:55,444 --> 00:03:59,324 Speaker 1: problem is in society lionizing this and glorifying it. And 61 00:03:59,724 --> 00:04:01,644 Speaker 1: by the way, let me just like caveat this by saying, 62 00:04:01,684 --> 00:04:03,924 Speaker 1: I believe in universal healthcare. I think that they are 63 00:04:04,004 --> 00:04:07,284 Speaker 1: horrible problems with the healthcare system in the United States. 64 00:04:07,324 --> 00:04:09,804 Speaker 1: I think no one should be denied coverage, you know, 65 00:04:09,804 --> 00:04:12,364 Speaker 1: I think this should be a fundamental human right. So like, 66 00:04:12,444 --> 00:04:14,924 Speaker 1: let's just put that aside. But the answer to that 67 00:04:15,044 --> 00:04:18,204 Speaker 1: isn't you know, let's go out and shoot people. And 68 00:04:18,364 --> 00:04:20,124 Speaker 1: the first thing I thought about, and I'm not the 69 00:04:20,164 --> 00:04:23,644 Speaker 1: only one, is like the French Revolution, right, and when 70 00:04:23,684 --> 00:04:26,644 Speaker 1: people were like, yeah, justifiable, let's go behead some people. 71 00:04:26,964 --> 00:04:29,964 Speaker 1: You know what happened to those executioners who did the beheadings. 72 00:04:30,284 --> 00:04:33,204 Speaker 1: They got beheaded, right. They also died after in the 73 00:04:33,564 --> 00:04:37,724 Speaker 1: in the counter revolution, the Thermadorian reaction. So you know, 74 00:04:37,764 --> 00:04:40,364 Speaker 1: there's a lot of historical precedent that says that this 75 00:04:40,484 --> 00:04:43,924 Speaker 1: ain't you know, yeah, sure society might change eventually, but 76 00:04:44,484 --> 00:04:46,844 Speaker 1: this ain't the way to go about it. And there 77 00:04:46,884 --> 00:04:50,444 Speaker 1: are I think we've advanced past that, and I hope 78 00:04:50,444 --> 00:04:52,964 Speaker 1: we keep advancing past that rather than regressing. And I 79 00:04:53,004 --> 00:04:54,884 Speaker 1: see a lot of signs of regression right now. 80 00:04:55,884 --> 00:04:57,724 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you look at the number of deaths and 81 00:04:57,884 --> 00:05:00,044 Speaker 2: armed conflict around the world, it kind of bottomed out 82 00:05:00,564 --> 00:05:02,364 Speaker 2: in the early two thousands and that has since risen. 83 00:05:02,364 --> 00:05:05,364 Speaker 2: There's actually a lot of people dying in Ukraine, for example, 84 00:05:05,364 --> 00:05:10,284 Speaker 2: there are interstate and interrustate conflicts in Africa. Yeah, I 85 00:05:10,324 --> 00:05:15,084 Speaker 2: don't know. I think people are not necessarily internally all 86 00:05:15,124 --> 00:05:17,724 Speaker 2: that much more civilized than they than they ever were. 87 00:05:19,564 --> 00:05:22,164 Speaker 2: And you know, the fact that you can have this 88 00:05:22,884 --> 00:05:25,044 Speaker 2: bountiful life in different ways, and the fact that you 89 00:05:25,084 --> 00:05:26,644 Speaker 2: have like a legal system, and the fact that you 90 00:05:26,684 --> 00:05:30,764 Speaker 2: have kind of diplomatic ways of resolving conflicts like the 91 00:05:30,764 --> 00:05:33,284 Speaker 2: courts or whatever else, or a negotiation of some kind 92 00:05:34,604 --> 00:05:39,484 Speaker 2: like that goes a long way, you know. I mean, 93 00:05:39,484 --> 00:05:43,444 Speaker 2: this is clearly a guy who is quite smart. He 94 00:05:43,484 --> 00:05:45,644 Speaker 2: was valedictorian of his high school class. He went to 95 00:05:46,004 --> 00:05:52,644 Speaker 2: University of Penn. He read pretty widely. Clearly a guy 96 00:05:52,684 --> 00:05:57,244 Speaker 2: who is capable of profound rationalization for extremely violent behavior. 97 00:05:57,284 --> 00:06:00,364 Speaker 2: I mean, the timeline he gave only makes a certain 98 00:06:00,404 --> 00:06:03,564 Speaker 2: amount of sense right where where he actually was like 99 00:06:03,564 --> 00:06:06,484 Speaker 2: texting friends that Hey, actually the surgery worked out pretty 100 00:06:06,524 --> 00:06:09,044 Speaker 2: well and I'm back to being able to do some 101 00:06:09,044 --> 00:06:10,484 Speaker 2: of the things used to be able to do. I mean, 102 00:06:10,484 --> 00:06:14,484 Speaker 2: people have inferred that, you know, he's at the age 103 00:06:14,484 --> 00:06:16,684 Speaker 2: what's he twenty six, twenty seven, he's at the age 104 00:06:16,684 --> 00:06:20,244 Speaker 2: where if you have signs of schizophrenia. Yeah, then that 105 00:06:20,284 --> 00:06:23,884 Speaker 2: tends to be an inflection point for schizophrenia. He had 106 00:06:23,924 --> 00:06:29,004 Speaker 2: also experimented with psychedelic drugs, which which I have no 107 00:06:29,044 --> 00:06:31,764 Speaker 2: problem with people doing, but tends to be a bad 108 00:06:31,764 --> 00:06:33,164 Speaker 2: idea for people with schizophrenia. 109 00:06:33,284 --> 00:06:35,364 Speaker 1: Yes, we know that they're a trigger. By the way, 110 00:06:35,364 --> 00:06:37,564 Speaker 1: there's a lot of research on this. So if you 111 00:06:37,644 --> 00:06:41,244 Speaker 1: have a tendency towards schizophrenia, and you know, if you 112 00:06:41,284 --> 00:06:45,884 Speaker 1: have that genetic predisposition, psychedelics and there are other drugs, 113 00:06:45,884 --> 00:06:48,404 Speaker 1: but psychedelics are especially a trigger for it. So that's 114 00:06:48,404 --> 00:06:51,844 Speaker 1: something that can actually precipitate the psychotic rank. Please continue it. 115 00:06:52,364 --> 00:06:53,924 Speaker 2: I mean, I also don't think the critique of the 116 00:06:53,964 --> 00:06:57,684 Speaker 2: healthcare system is particularly good, right, I mean, the problem 117 00:06:57,724 --> 00:07:01,204 Speaker 2: is that so the US spends a lot more on 118 00:07:01,284 --> 00:07:03,804 Speaker 2: healthcare relative to the quality of outcomes we have than 119 00:07:03,964 --> 00:07:09,164 Speaker 2: other westernized, industrialized countries. You know, the reasons for those 120 00:07:09,164 --> 00:07:12,964 Speaker 2: are much debated. Part of it has to do with 121 00:07:13,004 --> 00:07:17,044 Speaker 2: a lot of kind of profit built in for pharmaceutical 122 00:07:17,044 --> 00:07:19,564 Speaker 2: companies that develop actually very effective drugs like we saw 123 00:07:19,644 --> 00:07:22,804 Speaker 2: in Covid or whatnot. But you know, for whatever reason, 124 00:07:22,804 --> 00:07:25,964 Speaker 2: it tends to be subsidized by American taxpayers a little 125 00:07:26,004 --> 00:07:28,524 Speaker 2: bit more some it's because of incentives, right, if you're 126 00:07:28,524 --> 00:07:30,444 Speaker 2: not kind of paying out of pocket for things, and 127 00:07:30,524 --> 00:07:33,484 Speaker 2: you might consume more care than you want. And some 128 00:07:33,804 --> 00:07:37,004 Speaker 2: very small number of people consume a very high percentage 129 00:07:37,004 --> 00:07:39,844 Speaker 2: of resources in the healthcare system, some of whom are 130 00:07:40,484 --> 00:07:44,204 Speaker 2: in really bad shape and deserve it, but some of 131 00:07:44,204 --> 00:07:46,924 Speaker 2: them just kind of are, you know, consuming healthcare goods. 132 00:07:46,964 --> 00:07:49,564 Speaker 2: It's like a luxury good and things like that. And so, 133 00:07:50,244 --> 00:07:52,644 Speaker 2: you know, it is the job of insurers to like 134 00:07:53,284 --> 00:07:58,444 Speaker 2: track down fraudulent payments or track down procedures that they 135 00:07:58,484 --> 00:08:03,284 Speaker 2: be medically unnecessary. But like if you don't, if your 136 00:08:03,284 --> 00:08:06,324 Speaker 2: critque is the cost of health care, then you shouldn't 137 00:08:06,324 --> 00:08:10,684 Speaker 2: be complaining necessarily about the insurance companies that have a 138 00:08:10,724 --> 00:08:15,644 Speaker 2: relatively modest profit margin. Here, I'm a neoliberal capitalist. I 139 00:08:15,644 --> 00:08:18,764 Speaker 2: suppose I do think the healthcare system is fucked up. 140 00:08:19,044 --> 00:08:22,884 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that I think, you know, socialized medicine 141 00:08:22,924 --> 00:08:25,244 Speaker 2: is a good idea. I think it wouldn't be politically viable, 142 00:08:25,484 --> 00:08:28,524 Speaker 2: among other things. But I you know, this is not 143 00:08:28,564 --> 00:08:32,804 Speaker 2: like a very mature I would say, critique of what 144 00:08:32,844 --> 00:08:36,684 Speaker 2: the causes of the pain points in the healthcare system are, 145 00:08:36,964 --> 00:08:39,964 Speaker 2: I would say despite being a smart eye overall, and 146 00:08:39,964 --> 00:08:41,564 Speaker 2: that probably fits a pattern. By the way, Also, a 147 00:08:41,604 --> 00:08:43,884 Speaker 2: guy who like is a little bit in kind of 148 00:08:43,884 --> 00:08:46,604 Speaker 2: what we call the gray tribe people who he's reading 149 00:08:47,204 --> 00:08:50,444 Speaker 2: some of these kind of like centrist rationalist newslayers, probably 150 00:08:50,444 --> 00:08:53,204 Speaker 2: subscribed to a lot of substacks. For example, maybe listen 151 00:08:53,244 --> 00:08:56,044 Speaker 2: to this show if you're listening in jail, Hello, Luigi, 152 00:08:57,364 --> 00:08:59,404 Speaker 2: we vibe on the program. Probably not, I think, probably 153 00:08:59,444 --> 00:08:59,804 Speaker 2: a bad idea. 154 00:08:59,884 --> 00:09:02,124 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think so. I'm you know, I draw 155 00:09:02,164 --> 00:09:05,524 Speaker 1: the line at giving a platform to age. 156 00:09:05,124 --> 00:09:09,244 Speaker 2: A legend you never know, you never know. 157 00:09:12,044 --> 00:09:14,524 Speaker 1: But but yeah, no, I mean I think I think 158 00:09:14,524 --> 00:09:18,004 Speaker 1: we both agree healthcare system profoundly fucked up. It's not 159 00:09:18,124 --> 00:09:20,764 Speaker 1: just the insurance companies, it's the hospitals. I mean, there 160 00:09:20,764 --> 00:09:22,124 Speaker 1: are a lot of things that are wrong. But I 161 00:09:22,124 --> 00:09:26,044 Speaker 1: will also say that when people have really serious problems 162 00:09:26,084 --> 00:09:28,564 Speaker 1: I've had you know, I've had friends and my parents 163 00:09:28,644 --> 00:09:31,404 Speaker 1: have had friends. You know, older health issues, cancer, you know, 164 00:09:31,924 --> 00:09:35,244 Speaker 1: brain tumors, all sorts of things go wrong in Canada 165 00:09:35,524 --> 00:09:37,724 Speaker 1: and in Europe. Do you know where they come to 166 00:09:37,884 --> 00:09:40,764 Speaker 1: the United States to get the set, to get the surgery, 167 00:09:40,804 --> 00:09:42,884 Speaker 1: because that's where you can get that standard of your 168 00:09:42,884 --> 00:09:45,604 Speaker 1: care and you can't get it. Sure, they're experts everywhere, 169 00:09:46,244 --> 00:09:51,604 Speaker 1: but in general, you know, the quality the expertise is here. 170 00:09:51,644 --> 00:09:54,724 Speaker 1: And that's also here for a reason. I, like I said, 171 00:09:54,724 --> 00:09:58,324 Speaker 1: I firmly believe in universal health care, socialized medicine. Probably 172 00:09:58,444 --> 00:10:00,684 Speaker 1: not quite the way to go. I have no idea 173 00:10:00,684 --> 00:10:02,204 Speaker 1: how to solve this, right. This is why I am 174 00:10:02,244 --> 00:10:05,604 Speaker 1: not the CEO of a healthcare company or in charge 175 00:10:05,644 --> 00:10:08,284 Speaker 1: of health care. This is not my area of expertise. 176 00:10:08,324 --> 00:10:11,524 Speaker 1: But what I what is my area of expertise as 177 00:10:11,524 --> 00:10:15,084 Speaker 1: a psychological element of this, and it's really you know, 178 00:10:15,324 --> 00:10:17,844 Speaker 1: I think the human brain has this tendency and I 179 00:10:17,844 --> 00:10:20,924 Speaker 1: think we see this in Luigi to just simplify, right, 180 00:10:20,964 --> 00:10:25,724 Speaker 1: black and white heroes, villains, bad good, this person must go. 181 00:10:26,804 --> 00:10:31,644 Speaker 1: There's just this tendency to simplification and avoidance of nuance, 182 00:10:31,764 --> 00:10:36,364 Speaker 1: like Shades of Gray eight people's strong point a lot 183 00:10:36,364 --> 00:10:38,524 Speaker 1: of times, and I think that's getting much worse, and 184 00:10:38,644 --> 00:10:42,164 Speaker 1: especially in the social media world, you know, where kind 185 00:10:42,204 --> 00:10:44,884 Speaker 1: of all of these things are being amplified, where people 186 00:10:44,924 --> 00:10:48,484 Speaker 1: get into their little silos, into their little bubbles, and 187 00:10:48,524 --> 00:10:52,244 Speaker 1: they see these things reflected that simplification that like black 188 00:10:52,244 --> 00:10:56,364 Speaker 1: and white thinking, that hero villain thinking is getting overblown. 189 00:10:56,404 --> 00:10:58,564 Speaker 1: I'd like to see people start studying this. Right now, 190 00:10:58,604 --> 00:11:00,964 Speaker 1: I'm no longer in academia, but I'd really like to 191 00:11:01,004 --> 00:11:04,764 Speaker 1: see some work done on kind of the rise of 192 00:11:04,804 --> 00:11:08,324 Speaker 1: this type of simplistic thinking and simplistic outlooks on the 193 00:11:08,324 --> 00:11:11,084 Speaker 1: world as it relates to social media. 194 00:11:11,684 --> 00:11:14,244 Speaker 2: I don't think it's very widespread. There was some poll 195 00:11:14,284 --> 00:11:17,484 Speaker 2: that came out that found that only eighteen percent of 196 00:11:17,484 --> 00:11:20,764 Speaker 2: people approve of Luigi Mangioni, and like seventy percent disapprove. 197 00:11:20,844 --> 00:11:23,804 Speaker 2: I'm surprised that eighteen percent people have an opinion about 198 00:11:23,844 --> 00:11:26,044 Speaker 2: him or know who he is. Right, he could sound 199 00:11:26,164 --> 00:11:30,164 Speaker 2: like some Italian movie star from the forties or something 200 00:11:30,204 --> 00:11:30,444 Speaker 2: like that. 201 00:11:30,564 --> 00:11:33,724 Speaker 1: Right, So, just to clarify what I was thinking, I 202 00:11:33,884 --> 00:11:36,164 Speaker 1: was what I was talking about was actually Luigi himself 203 00:11:36,364 --> 00:11:38,844 Speaker 1: and the reason he thought this was a good idea, 204 00:11:38,924 --> 00:11:40,724 Speaker 1: that his view of the world is this kind of 205 00:11:40,724 --> 00:11:44,124 Speaker 1: black and white view. And I think that, but as yes, 206 00:11:44,364 --> 00:11:46,764 Speaker 1: it also applies to the people who support him. I 207 00:11:46,764 --> 00:11:50,124 Speaker 1: think that, Yeah, it is a widespread, kind of a 208 00:11:50,164 --> 00:11:54,604 Speaker 1: widespread fallacy, and our brains do work that way, and 209 00:11:54,644 --> 00:11:56,964 Speaker 1: we have to constantly fight against it, and the things 210 00:11:56,964 --> 00:11:59,844 Speaker 1: that actually help buttress against that are things that are 211 00:12:00,124 --> 00:12:05,044 Speaker 1: disappearing from the world, like critical thinking skills and reading 212 00:12:05,084 --> 00:12:07,964 Speaker 1: literature and you know, things that things that actually kind 213 00:12:08,004 --> 00:12:10,284 Speaker 1: of force you to slow down and to think and 214 00:12:10,324 --> 00:12:13,364 Speaker 1: to reflect. And instead we're i think, living in a 215 00:12:13,404 --> 00:12:16,804 Speaker 1: world where we're reacting and thinking very quickly and not 216 00:12:16,884 --> 00:12:21,124 Speaker 1: reading deeply and consuming you know, very simplistic media a 217 00:12:21,164 --> 00:12:24,044 Speaker 1: lot of the times, and that is I think that's 218 00:12:24,084 --> 00:12:25,964 Speaker 1: not a good that's not a good background. 219 00:12:26,684 --> 00:12:29,804 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's weird is like it was. It's not like 220 00:12:29,844 --> 00:12:32,244 Speaker 2: one of these like zodiac killer types where he plots 221 00:12:32,324 --> 00:12:35,284 Speaker 2: us out for years. I don't think right, Like he 222 00:12:35,324 --> 00:12:39,484 Speaker 2: wrote a manifesto that was like not very not the 223 00:12:39,524 --> 00:12:41,764 Speaker 2: best manifesto. I give it. 224 00:12:42,724 --> 00:12:44,164 Speaker 1: I rate your manifestos. 225 00:12:47,164 --> 00:12:49,644 Speaker 2: But he's like, yeah, I haven't really finished thinking about this, 226 00:12:49,844 --> 00:12:51,964 Speaker 2: but you know whatever, there's not time. It's like, okay, 227 00:12:51,964 --> 00:12:58,204 Speaker 2: come on, man, okay, we're I'm going to talk about 228 00:12:58,204 --> 00:13:00,364 Speaker 2: blueskind of moment. I'm interested in the phenomenon of like 229 00:13:01,804 --> 00:13:03,764 Speaker 2: the certain segment I guess you call it of the left. 230 00:13:04,044 --> 00:13:05,844 Speaker 2: I'm not sure why it's even necessarily left exactly. I 231 00:13:05,884 --> 00:13:08,004 Speaker 2: think it's just kind of like I think it's everything 232 00:13:08,164 --> 00:13:12,404 Speaker 2: crazy attention demanding people for sure. 233 00:13:12,684 --> 00:13:14,804 Speaker 1: Well you also I think I don't know if I've 234 00:13:14,844 --> 00:13:17,164 Speaker 1: said this on the show before, but I've definitely talked 235 00:13:17,164 --> 00:13:19,684 Speaker 1: to you about it. Which is my view that as 236 00:13:19,684 --> 00:13:22,244 Speaker 1: you get to that, you know, the political spectrum isn't 237 00:13:22,284 --> 00:13:25,044 Speaker 1: a line, it's a circle, right and ship to the 238 00:13:25,084 --> 00:13:28,324 Speaker 1: extremes of the of the right and the left, they meet, 239 00:13:28,764 --> 00:13:34,284 Speaker 1: right and those like total extremists are are actually basically 240 00:13:34,724 --> 00:13:37,004 Speaker 1: the same thing. It just it just comes full circle. 241 00:13:37,924 --> 00:13:38,364 Speaker 1: That's yeah. 242 00:13:38,404 --> 00:13:39,884 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean there are the demands. There's like 243 00:13:39,924 --> 00:13:44,604 Speaker 2: how much trust do you have in the system? Right, Yeah, 244 00:13:44,644 --> 00:13:48,764 Speaker 2: it's been weird. You've seen like democratic politicians ranging from 245 00:13:47,884 --> 00:13:53,764 Speaker 2: U AOC to Elizabeth Warren to Chris Murphy, who's this 246 00:13:53,884 --> 00:13:56,644 Speaker 2: very like whitebread senator from Connecticut who's now trying to 247 00:13:56,644 --> 00:14:00,924 Speaker 2: be like the cool dad. You know, he's lame. He's 248 00:14:00,964 --> 00:14:03,044 Speaker 2: like trying to run for the president of twenty twenty eight, right, 249 00:14:03,044 --> 00:14:05,884 Speaker 2: and he's like from the ultimate neoliberal insurance broker state. 250 00:14:06,244 --> 00:14:09,124 Speaker 1: You don't like the dad vibe. Walls now. 251 00:14:10,564 --> 00:14:14,644 Speaker 2: Went to Williams College, you know, which it's not the 252 00:14:14,884 --> 00:14:19,964 Speaker 2: populist hotbed exactly, Whereas Bernie Sanders, who is a much 253 00:14:20,004 --> 00:14:23,524 Speaker 2: better politician than all of the three people I mentioned 254 00:14:23,524 --> 00:14:26,164 Speaker 2: together multiplied by fifty. I mean, Bernie Sanders has a competent. 255 00:14:26,164 --> 00:14:28,564 Speaker 2: I mean, Aosc's a pretty good politician. I take that back. 256 00:14:28,564 --> 00:14:32,404 Speaker 2: I think Elizabeth WARN's a borderline terrible politician and Chris 257 00:14:32,484 --> 00:14:36,044 Speaker 2: Murphy is worse. Aos' is a pretty smart politician. So 258 00:14:36,084 --> 00:14:38,604 Speaker 2: that was suppressing to see. But like, but Bernie Sanders, 259 00:14:38,644 --> 00:14:42,564 Speaker 2: who like has built this coalition and you know, got 260 00:14:42,604 --> 00:14:45,484 Speaker 2: a lot of things, gotten minimum wage increases in a 261 00:14:45,524 --> 00:14:48,524 Speaker 2: lot of places, came not within a hair's breath, but 262 00:14:48,804 --> 00:14:51,724 Speaker 2: very respectably against Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen. I mean, 263 00:14:51,764 --> 00:14:53,684 Speaker 2: like you know, he was like, yeah, this is not 264 00:14:53,764 --> 00:14:57,204 Speaker 2: the way into into people's hearts on this issue, right, 265 00:14:58,684 --> 00:15:00,804 Speaker 2: And like also, like, if you want to talk more 266 00:15:00,804 --> 00:15:03,004 Speaker 2: about healthcare, by the way, just to give you some context, right, 267 00:15:03,004 --> 00:15:05,564 Speaker 2: this is a real issue. The United States, according to 268 00:15:05,604 --> 00:15:09,044 Speaker 2: the Peter J. Peterson Foundation, spends seven hundred and forty 269 00:15:09,084 --> 00:15:13,884 Speaker 2: teen dollar per year on healthcare compared to and fifty 270 00:15:13,924 --> 00:15:16,084 Speaker 2: dollars of the other wealthy countries. 271 00:15:16,164 --> 00:15:18,244 Speaker 1: This is per person, right, per capity. 272 00:15:17,964 --> 00:15:21,844 Speaker 2: Yes, so twice as much. Ish about one thousand dollars 273 00:15:21,884 --> 00:15:25,004 Speaker 2: of that is in administrative costs, which is not all 274 00:15:25,044 --> 00:15:27,924 Speaker 2: of it or most of it, but compares toon averager 275 00:15:28,004 --> 00:15:31,484 Speaker 2: two hundred and thirteen dollars and these other wealthy countries Australia, 276 00:15:31,644 --> 00:15:36,244 Speaker 2: can Belgium and so forth. So there's a real issue here. 277 00:15:36,244 --> 00:15:39,204 Speaker 2: But you don't have to like just start talking more 278 00:15:39,204 --> 00:15:41,484 Speaker 2: about healthcare. You don't have to say we're talking more 279 00:15:41,484 --> 00:15:45,564 Speaker 2: about healthcare because it's fucking lunatic who allegedly killed somebody, right, 280 00:15:45,804 --> 00:15:48,644 Speaker 2: just talk more about healthcare, and like, don't like rationalize 281 00:15:48,644 --> 00:15:51,484 Speaker 2: it in your little bubble. And it's just I don't know, 282 00:15:51,644 --> 00:15:52,684 Speaker 2: it's just very weird to me. 283 00:15:53,124 --> 00:15:56,404 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's I think that's exactly right. And 284 00:15:56,444 --> 00:15:58,964 Speaker 1: I think on that note, shall we take a break 285 00:15:58,964 --> 00:16:13,084 Speaker 1: and then talk about social media and caris guy. Yeah, 286 00:16:13,804 --> 00:16:16,884 Speaker 1: So over the last few months since October, blue Sky 287 00:16:17,004 --> 00:16:20,284 Speaker 1: has gained almost two and a half million users, and 288 00:16:20,524 --> 00:16:24,044 Speaker 1: Twitter or X as it's now known, has lost basically 289 00:16:24,044 --> 00:16:27,444 Speaker 1: the same amount two point seven million. So we're seeing 290 00:16:27,724 --> 00:16:31,444 Speaker 1: kind of Twitter x is still ten times bigger than 291 00:16:31,484 --> 00:16:34,164 Speaker 1: blue Sky, but we are seeing something that looks like 292 00:16:34,204 --> 00:16:37,564 Speaker 1: it might be a trend. Before we get into it, Nate, 293 00:16:37,604 --> 00:16:39,004 Speaker 1: do you have a blue Sky account? 294 00:16:39,244 --> 00:16:42,724 Speaker 2: I do, but I never use it, and I don't 295 00:16:42,764 --> 00:16:46,604 Speaker 2: know what kind of fucking psychedelics you drugs you'd have 296 00:16:46,604 --> 00:16:47,924 Speaker 2: to give me to want to spend a moment on 297 00:16:48,004 --> 00:16:48,484 Speaker 2: blue Sky. 298 00:16:49,844 --> 00:16:52,044 Speaker 1: So I knew you had a blue Sky account. I 299 00:16:52,044 --> 00:16:54,804 Speaker 1: thought it was you because I found you with zero posts. 300 00:16:54,964 --> 00:16:57,324 Speaker 1: But I have a blue Sky account. I still have 301 00:16:57,444 --> 00:17:00,844 Speaker 1: my Twitter account, but I made a blue Sky account 302 00:17:00,844 --> 00:17:05,604 Speaker 1: back when it was very early invite only, so sick brag. Yeah, 303 00:17:05,724 --> 00:17:07,924 Speaker 1: I know, I know, but I've had one for a 304 00:17:08,004 --> 00:17:10,804 Speaker 1: while and I've had periods of activity and dormancy, right, 305 00:17:11,004 --> 00:17:13,364 Speaker 1: so I was active at the beginning then, like I 306 00:17:13,404 --> 00:17:16,404 Speaker 1: was like, screw this. You know, it's too many social 307 00:17:16,444 --> 00:17:19,564 Speaker 1: media platforms. You've got Twitter, You've got Masta don do 308 00:17:19,564 --> 00:17:20,684 Speaker 1: you remember Masta Don? 309 00:17:21,324 --> 00:17:25,284 Speaker 2: You've got I've play loyled Twitter, you know, you've. 310 00:17:25,084 --> 00:17:26,964 Speaker 1: Got You've got blue Sky. You know, there are all 311 00:17:26,964 --> 00:17:28,564 Speaker 1: these things, and I'm like, you know, fuck this, Like 312 00:17:28,644 --> 00:17:30,884 Speaker 1: I can't, I can't maintain all of these different accounts. 313 00:17:31,564 --> 00:17:35,524 Speaker 1: But I actually re kind of recommitted to blue Sky 314 00:17:36,884 --> 00:17:41,604 Speaker 1: probably about oh, I don't know how many months ago, three, 315 00:17:41,684 --> 00:17:45,404 Speaker 1: four or five months ago, because Twitter was getting for me. 316 00:17:45,964 --> 00:17:49,364 Speaker 1: So your experience is probably different because as someone with 317 00:17:49,444 --> 00:17:53,404 Speaker 1: over a million followers, you were you got the you know, 318 00:17:53,524 --> 00:17:56,644 Speaker 1: check blue check mark, and your your Twitter experience is 319 00:17:57,004 --> 00:17:59,524 Speaker 1: a premium one. Mine is not. I refuse to pay 320 00:17:59,564 --> 00:18:02,844 Speaker 1: for a blue check mark. And so my Twitter just 321 00:18:02,884 --> 00:18:06,964 Speaker 1: became so unusable in terms of spam, in terms of 322 00:18:07,124 --> 00:18:12,484 Speaker 1: just like horrific content that I get, boughts, all sorts 323 00:18:12,484 --> 00:18:15,164 Speaker 1: of things, ads that I really don't want to see, 324 00:18:15,684 --> 00:18:19,364 Speaker 1: and Blue Sky became kind of a much cleaner way 325 00:18:19,444 --> 00:18:21,844 Speaker 1: of sharing. That's it. I didn't leave Twitter because I 326 00:18:21,884 --> 00:18:24,444 Speaker 1: actually think that that would have been a mistake. And 327 00:18:24,684 --> 00:18:27,964 Speaker 1: I think that it's a very bad idea to kind 328 00:18:28,004 --> 00:18:31,564 Speaker 1: of leave the party when you disagree with things that 329 00:18:31,604 --> 00:18:33,684 Speaker 1: are going on, because then you missed the discourse, right, 330 00:18:33,724 --> 00:18:36,044 Speaker 1: You missed the conversation. You have no idea what's going on. 331 00:18:36,444 --> 00:18:38,444 Speaker 1: And the worst thing you can do at that point 332 00:18:38,764 --> 00:18:42,844 Speaker 1: is like go off into your bubble in protests, because 333 00:18:42,964 --> 00:18:44,364 Speaker 1: that's not going to make anything better. 334 00:18:45,804 --> 00:18:48,124 Speaker 2: I'd much rather hang around the Twitter party than the 335 00:18:48,124 --> 00:18:50,444 Speaker 2: Blue Sky party. And by the way, I have been like, 336 00:18:51,084 --> 00:18:56,164 Speaker 2: you haven't tried the Blue Sky harass as much as 337 00:18:56,244 --> 00:18:59,764 Speaker 2: almost any person on Twitter. I'm just a little windy 338 00:18:59,804 --> 00:19:02,404 Speaker 2: baby about it, you know what I mean. But like, 339 00:19:02,404 --> 00:19:04,884 Speaker 2: in terms of like having people say awful things to me, 340 00:19:04,924 --> 00:19:06,524 Speaker 2: it happens to me all the time on Twitter. Maybe 341 00:19:06,564 --> 00:19:09,244 Speaker 2: a little bit less than it did in previous ethics, 342 00:19:09,524 --> 00:19:11,404 Speaker 2: a little bit less than it did in an election year, 343 00:19:12,764 --> 00:19:14,564 Speaker 2: but like you know, and I dish it out too, 344 00:19:14,764 --> 00:19:17,884 Speaker 2: to be fair, But yeah, I've been a trending topic 345 00:19:17,924 --> 00:19:20,284 Speaker 2: more times than I account for. I cancount for like 346 00:19:20,324 --> 00:19:26,044 Speaker 2: totally innocuous things, right, But I would still rather have 347 00:19:26,764 --> 00:19:29,804 Speaker 2: Twitter in als decrepit form. And there's lots of conspiracy 348 00:19:29,844 --> 00:19:33,444 Speaker 2: theories and and you know, the four you algorithm will 349 00:19:33,484 --> 00:19:36,844 Speaker 2: do kind of anything to get your engagement. You know, 350 00:19:36,924 --> 00:19:38,804 Speaker 2: you get lots It doesn't apparently know what I'm gay. 351 00:19:38,844 --> 00:19:42,044 Speaker 2: I get like lots of like smutty female stuff, right 352 00:19:42,084 --> 00:19:44,004 Speaker 2: and things like that, And like it hasn't quite figured 353 00:19:44,044 --> 00:19:47,724 Speaker 2: me out exactly. And I'm probably kind of gradually using 354 00:19:47,724 --> 00:19:50,164 Speaker 2: Twitter like less similars now, and then I'll have days 355 00:19:50,204 --> 00:19:51,924 Speaker 2: where I forget to check Twitter first thing in the morning, 356 00:19:51,924 --> 00:19:53,764 Speaker 2: even though it's kind of part of my routine, to 357 00:19:53,764 --> 00:19:54,204 Speaker 2: be honest. 358 00:19:54,244 --> 00:19:55,764 Speaker 1: But like, well, let me. 359 00:19:55,724 --> 00:19:59,724 Speaker 2: Back up a little bit right Twitter. I mean I 360 00:19:59,724 --> 00:20:01,804 Speaker 2: first had a Twitter account in two thousand and eight, 361 00:20:02,044 --> 00:20:05,084 Speaker 2: and this is kind of like before everybody is quite 362 00:20:05,124 --> 00:20:09,204 Speaker 2: so online as they are now, and so so you 363 00:20:09,444 --> 00:20:12,164 Speaker 2: kind of have like the founders are kind of tech 364 00:20:12,284 --> 00:20:14,844 Speaker 2: nerds in a different way, or like news nerds, people 365 00:20:14,844 --> 00:20:16,724 Speaker 2: who are working in the journals and ministry in some 366 00:20:16,804 --> 00:20:21,004 Speaker 2: ways and trying to find new platforms. And when you 367 00:20:21,044 --> 00:20:23,524 Speaker 2: have that, then you know, one nice thing about that 368 00:20:23,684 --> 00:20:27,684 Speaker 2: is that nerds tend to be I don't know, there's 369 00:20:27,684 --> 00:20:30,444 Speaker 2: a camaraderie with other nerds, right. If you're a tech geek, 370 00:20:30,484 --> 00:20:34,244 Speaker 2: then you can like, you know, tolerate certain things. They 371 00:20:34,404 --> 00:20:38,324 Speaker 2: tend to be pretty center left, although not necessarily that 372 00:20:38,364 --> 00:20:44,204 Speaker 2: political quote unquote. Around twenty fifteen you begin to see 373 00:20:45,524 --> 00:20:47,764 Speaker 2: you know, a lot more media organizations actually before that 374 00:20:47,804 --> 00:20:50,524 Speaker 2: really right, and then you kind of had and you know, 375 00:20:50,524 --> 00:20:53,124 Speaker 2: I don't know where you could like pinpoint the reasons 376 00:20:53,124 --> 00:21:00,124 Speaker 2: for this, but you had a certain type of very pedantic, progressive, 377 00:21:00,444 --> 00:21:06,164 Speaker 2: skuldly left wing commentator become very prominent on Twitter. It's like, 378 00:21:06,684 --> 00:21:09,324 Speaker 2: I call them knits, but they're worse because anyway, it's 379 00:21:09,604 --> 00:21:12,844 Speaker 2: my least favorite type of people in the world. And 380 00:21:12,884 --> 00:21:14,884 Speaker 2: they're all at Blue Sky and they all are in 381 00:21:14,924 --> 00:21:16,804 Speaker 2: a circle jerk with one another, and like, I just 382 00:21:16,844 --> 00:21:19,964 Speaker 2: can't imagine, like you would have to pay me millions 383 00:21:20,004 --> 00:21:21,964 Speaker 2: of dollars per year to be like an active Blue 384 00:21:21,964 --> 00:21:26,284 Speaker 2: Sky community member. Now, look, if if we got to 385 00:21:26,284 --> 00:21:26,884 Speaker 2: a point. 386 00:21:26,764 --> 00:21:29,124 Speaker 1: Let's say, you really feel it, tell us how you really. 387 00:21:29,204 --> 00:21:32,204 Speaker 2: By the way, Blue Sky's numbers are not really rising anymore. 388 00:21:32,244 --> 00:21:35,404 Speaker 2: The number of daily likes, this is according to bsky 389 00:21:35,484 --> 00:21:41,684 Speaker 2: dot jazzco dot dev backslash stats, actually peaked on November eighteenth. 390 00:21:41,764 --> 00:21:43,564 Speaker 2: It looks like and has now. The number of daily 391 00:21:43,644 --> 00:21:47,404 Speaker 2: likes has fallen by about thirty percent since the peak. 392 00:21:47,444 --> 00:21:50,364 Speaker 2: The number of daily posters fallen by about the same amount. 393 00:21:50,404 --> 00:21:53,404 Speaker 2: The number of daily followers fallen even more than that. Right, 394 00:21:53,444 --> 00:21:57,084 Speaker 2: and so so I think you actually have a self 395 00:21:57,124 --> 00:22:01,924 Speaker 2: limiting bubble here, right. Clearly, it's a compelling product to 396 00:22:02,124 --> 00:22:04,484 Speaker 2: a certain type. Actually to more than one group. 397 00:22:04,564 --> 00:22:04,764 Speaker 1: Right. 398 00:22:05,324 --> 00:22:10,964 Speaker 2: There are these kind of like fringy more left wing people. 399 00:22:11,084 --> 00:22:12,724 Speaker 2: I would say that's one group. There's also kind of 400 00:22:12,724 --> 00:22:16,084 Speaker 2: like the resistance liberals. But you kind of combine the 401 00:22:16,244 --> 00:22:19,724 Speaker 2: crazy left people with the like goody two shoes like 402 00:22:20,164 --> 00:22:23,764 Speaker 2: resistance folks who I also have no real problem with, 403 00:22:23,844 --> 00:22:25,644 Speaker 2: but you know they're too I don't know, they're too 404 00:22:25,724 --> 00:22:29,124 Speaker 2: square for me and too cringe and like in like 405 00:22:29,164 --> 00:22:31,884 Speaker 2: two straight laced right, it's like it's like, I don't know, 406 00:22:32,084 --> 00:22:34,844 Speaker 2: it's again, it's the worst party in the world. And 407 00:22:34,884 --> 00:22:36,764 Speaker 2: I think I think that it actually has a pretty 408 00:22:37,364 --> 00:22:39,364 Speaker 2: limited audience. I think that audience will love it, but 409 00:22:39,404 --> 00:22:42,124 Speaker 2: I think it I think founder effects are profound. Founder 410 00:22:42,124 --> 00:22:45,004 Speaker 2: effects mean that when a certain like species into an ecosystem, 411 00:22:45,324 --> 00:22:48,404 Speaker 2: or a certain population enters a you know, physical ecosystem 412 00:22:48,404 --> 00:22:50,924 Speaker 2: that they have, like there's a lot of path dependency 413 00:22:50,964 --> 00:22:55,564 Speaker 2: and kind of who then joins or is or feels 414 00:22:55,604 --> 00:22:58,524 Speaker 2: like a strange from the system. And and and I think, 415 00:22:58,644 --> 00:23:01,004 Speaker 2: you know, people like Matt Iglesias, who was kind of 416 00:23:01,004 --> 00:23:03,324 Speaker 2: a friend of the newsletter. I don't know, a friend 417 00:23:03,364 --> 00:23:05,004 Speaker 2: of the podcast, but like he was someone who tried 418 00:23:05,004 --> 00:23:06,804 Speaker 2: to go on Blue Sky and acting good faith and 419 00:23:06,924 --> 00:23:09,244 Speaker 2: like and that's probably somewhat like me and being some 420 00:23:09,484 --> 00:23:12,204 Speaker 2: center left and also can give and take a little bit, 421 00:23:12,404 --> 00:23:14,364 Speaker 2: was like kind of hounded off it and like treat 422 00:23:14,364 --> 00:23:16,164 Speaker 2: it really really poorly, and like if you can't like 423 00:23:16,244 --> 00:23:19,324 Speaker 2: tolerate like Matt Iglasius. You see the left of seventy 424 00:23:19,324 --> 00:23:22,804 Speaker 2: five percent of the country, right, then your platform has 425 00:23:22,844 --> 00:23:24,324 Speaker 2: a limited reach, I think. 426 00:23:25,444 --> 00:23:28,924 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I will you know, push back on part 427 00:23:28,924 --> 00:23:30,444 Speaker 1: of that in the sense that, like my blue Sky 428 00:23:30,564 --> 00:23:34,564 Speaker 1: experience is totally different, right, Like I curated it the 429 00:23:34,564 --> 00:23:38,004 Speaker 1: way that I curate my Twitter feed, which is like 430 00:23:38,204 --> 00:23:40,804 Speaker 1: a lot of people who make me laugh and are funny, 431 00:23:41,044 --> 00:23:44,564 Speaker 1: a lot of writers I admire, right, And it's actually, 432 00:23:45,204 --> 00:23:47,604 Speaker 1: you know, I've tried to steer clear. There's some political 433 00:23:47,644 --> 00:23:49,964 Speaker 1: stuff on there, but mostly you know, and some news 434 00:23:50,004 --> 00:23:52,004 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And it's just a much cleaner 435 00:23:52,004 --> 00:23:54,204 Speaker 1: feed for me now than what Twitter has become. I 436 00:23:54,204 --> 00:23:56,564 Speaker 1: don't get death threats. I don't get rape threats. You know, 437 00:23:56,644 --> 00:23:57,564 Speaker 1: people people do say. 438 00:23:57,564 --> 00:23:58,844 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're you're like. 439 00:23:59,244 --> 00:24:01,564 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, I'm just saying my experience. So I'm 440 00:24:01,564 --> 00:24:03,204 Speaker 1: just saying that there are lots of different ways to 441 00:24:03,204 --> 00:24:05,964 Speaker 1: carry a blue sky. Where I will, well, I will 442 00:24:06,004 --> 00:24:08,964 Speaker 1: agree with you, is that I think that this kind 443 00:24:09,044 --> 00:24:11,884 Speaker 1: of just black and white knee jerk reaction like this 444 00:24:11,964 --> 00:24:14,844 Speaker 1: person is here, like let's hound them off, like that 445 00:24:15,004 --> 00:24:16,204 Speaker 1: is bad, right. 446 00:24:16,124 --> 00:24:18,804 Speaker 2: That is just it's also violent people who are seen 447 00:24:19,004 --> 00:24:22,604 Speaker 2: as being too conservative on trans rights. There like are 448 00:24:22,604 --> 00:24:27,284 Speaker 2: literally receiving literally receiving death threats right very out in 449 00:24:27,324 --> 00:24:29,124 Speaker 2: the open, and there's not much effort. 450 00:24:28,804 --> 00:24:30,324 Speaker 1: To that's that's the opposite. 451 00:24:30,364 --> 00:24:32,124 Speaker 2: And the fact that like that's tolerated on Blue Sky, 452 00:24:32,404 --> 00:24:34,604 Speaker 2: whereas like Mattic Glacis is hounded off. I mean, that's 453 00:24:34,604 --> 00:24:37,284 Speaker 2: really fucked up, right, I don't want to support that platform. 454 00:24:37,324 --> 00:24:39,884 Speaker 2: I literally think Twitter is is better. I literally think 455 00:24:39,924 --> 00:24:42,484 Speaker 2: Twitter is at least a little bit more bipartisan, and like, 456 00:24:43,124 --> 00:24:46,324 Speaker 2: you know, I you don't have this hypocritical endorsement of 457 00:24:46,404 --> 00:24:49,404 Speaker 2: violence on Blue Sky that I don't think people should 458 00:24:49,404 --> 00:24:51,044 Speaker 2: spend their time there now. 459 00:24:51,084 --> 00:24:53,644 Speaker 1: I think that the endorsement of virons is absolutely wrong. 460 00:24:53,724 --> 00:24:55,804 Speaker 1: And like I said, you know, that's the thing I'm 461 00:24:55,804 --> 00:24:58,004 Speaker 1: agreeing with you on. I think that you should. You know, 462 00:24:58,084 --> 00:25:01,444 Speaker 1: people need to be more open minded, more tolerant, and 463 00:25:01,524 --> 00:25:04,804 Speaker 1: more able to see nuanced. This as a thread throughout 464 00:25:05,204 --> 00:25:08,404 Speaker 1: this episode, I guess of Risky Business that you know, 465 00:25:08,484 --> 00:25:11,244 Speaker 1: the world ain't black and white. People like, there are 466 00:25:11,284 --> 00:25:14,804 Speaker 1: good things and bad things, and you can disagree respectfully, right, 467 00:25:14,844 --> 00:25:18,004 Speaker 1: You can have conversations, you can engage with people, you 468 00:25:18,044 --> 00:25:20,324 Speaker 1: can actually have debates about a lot of topics, and 469 00:25:20,364 --> 00:25:23,244 Speaker 1: it's not if you say this or if you think that, 470 00:25:23,324 --> 00:25:25,484 Speaker 1: then you're a horrible human being and I'm done with you. 471 00:25:25,924 --> 00:25:28,604 Speaker 1: And here's this person's address, let's go and get them 472 00:25:28,884 --> 00:25:31,364 Speaker 1: right like that that is just that is not okay 473 00:25:31,364 --> 00:25:34,204 Speaker 1: behavior and that kind of extremism. That's what we were 474 00:25:34,204 --> 00:25:36,884 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, in our last segment about Luigi. 475 00:25:37,084 --> 00:25:40,404 Speaker 1: That is rising. And I think that what Twitter has, 476 00:25:40,444 --> 00:25:42,844 Speaker 1: I that Twitter has that as well. That is not 477 00:25:42,964 --> 00:25:46,004 Speaker 1: unique to to Blue Sky. What Twitter has of that, 478 00:25:46,044 --> 00:25:49,204 Speaker 1: what Blue Sky is showing and amplifying there, like that 479 00:25:49,364 --> 00:25:51,964 Speaker 1: is a very very bad way of looking at the world, 480 00:25:52,044 --> 00:25:54,404 Speaker 1: and I think we're seeing it more and more and 481 00:25:54,444 --> 00:25:57,404 Speaker 1: we need to have you know, I don't know how 482 00:25:57,444 --> 00:26:00,804 Speaker 1: we draw back as as a society and say okay, 483 00:26:00,844 --> 00:26:05,164 Speaker 1: you know enough, right, like let's let's just maybe civilized 484 00:26:05,164 --> 00:26:06,804 Speaker 1: discost maybe somewhere. 485 00:26:06,844 --> 00:26:09,684 Speaker 2: Like social media platforms are like the great filter. There's 486 00:26:09,684 --> 00:26:13,044 Speaker 2: all this theory about the Fermi paradox and like why 487 00:26:13,124 --> 00:26:15,724 Speaker 2: don't we see extraterrestrial life? And they are like literally 488 00:26:15,724 --> 00:26:18,324 Speaker 2: dozens of possible answers to it. But like, you know, 489 00:26:18,404 --> 00:26:22,244 Speaker 2: maybe the Twitter type social media platforms, especially when they 490 00:26:22,244 --> 00:26:27,884 Speaker 2: get algorithmatized to spark engagement by any means necessary, Like 491 00:26:27,924 --> 00:26:31,204 Speaker 2: maybe those are just really bad that right, Yeah, and 492 00:26:31,244 --> 00:26:35,404 Speaker 2: maybe Twitter was actually the exception to be like relatively 493 00:26:35,444 --> 00:26:37,044 Speaker 2: good for a period. I mean it still is more 494 00:26:37,084 --> 00:26:38,644 Speaker 2: by parts. If you look at the data on like 495 00:26:39,044 --> 00:26:44,244 Speaker 2: Democrats for Republicans on Twitter, it is relatively balanced. Now, 496 00:26:44,324 --> 00:26:48,204 Speaker 2: I personally think that Elon with the for you algorithm, 497 00:26:48,244 --> 00:26:51,124 Speaker 2: I think quits a pretty heavy finger on the scale 498 00:26:51,244 --> 00:26:54,364 Speaker 2: for conservative viewpoints. And my subjective view was a very 499 00:26:54,684 --> 00:26:56,724 Speaker 2: long time user. Is that like there's a little thumb 500 00:26:56,764 --> 00:27:00,284 Speaker 2: on the scale for certain stuff, including Elon fucking posting 501 00:27:00,324 --> 00:27:02,764 Speaker 2: so much himself, right, maybe the most important thumb on 502 00:27:02,804 --> 00:27:03,404 Speaker 2: the scale. 503 00:27:04,164 --> 00:27:07,084 Speaker 1: I'm one of those people who constantly says, like don't 504 00:27:07,124 --> 00:27:09,564 Speaker 1: show like ignore, this is not for me, and it 505 00:27:09,604 --> 00:27:11,804 Speaker 1: doesn't work when it comes to Elon, and when it 506 00:27:11,844 --> 00:27:14,004 Speaker 1: comes to when it comes to those things, it just 507 00:27:14,924 --> 00:27:17,444 Speaker 1: it just completely does not work apparently. 508 00:27:19,284 --> 00:27:22,124 Speaker 2: Where it's like if tweet is from Elon, wait by 509 00:27:22,164 --> 00:27:23,524 Speaker 2: like one thousand x Right. 510 00:27:24,804 --> 00:27:27,564 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think you made a really important point 511 00:27:27,924 --> 00:27:30,884 Speaker 1: that maybe like social media platforms like Twitter, like Blue Sky, 512 00:27:31,004 --> 00:27:32,804 Speaker 1: like all of these sorts of platforms are not good 513 00:27:32,924 --> 00:27:34,684 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, right, Like, maybe that 514 00:27:34,844 --> 00:27:37,364 Speaker 1: is not good for critical thinking, that's not good for 515 00:27:37,444 --> 00:27:40,364 Speaker 1: deep thinking, it's not good for fostering the kind of 516 00:27:40,404 --> 00:27:43,244 Speaker 1: society where we want to live. And by the way, 517 00:27:43,404 --> 00:27:47,284 Speaker 1: you know, in other news, like we've seen Australia, right 518 00:27:47,404 --> 00:27:51,004 Speaker 1: just banned social media for people under sixteen? Is that right? Yeah? 519 00:27:51,044 --> 00:27:53,204 Speaker 1: But you know there are countries that I just try 520 00:27:53,284 --> 00:27:55,804 Speaker 1: to go like complete, Okay, whoa, this is not this 521 00:27:55,884 --> 00:27:57,204 Speaker 1: is not good. I think that might be a little 522 00:27:57,204 --> 00:27:59,684 Speaker 1: too extreme, but I do think we're seeing a lot 523 00:27:59,684 --> 00:28:02,324 Speaker 1: of signs that like maybe this just doesn't good, whether 524 00:28:02,324 --> 00:28:06,164 Speaker 1: it's Twitter or blue Sky or or any of these platforms, 525 00:28:06,164 --> 00:28:07,964 Speaker 1: that they're just not bringing out the best in people. 526 00:28:08,324 --> 00:28:10,284 Speaker 1: They're not bringing out the best in conversation, they're not 527 00:28:10,324 --> 00:28:12,724 Speaker 1: bringing out the best in the ways that our brains 528 00:28:13,124 --> 00:28:15,604 Speaker 1: can work, right, They're not challenging us the way that 529 00:28:15,604 --> 00:28:18,444 Speaker 1: they should be challenging us, and instead they're kind of 530 00:28:18,524 --> 00:28:21,324 Speaker 1: catering to the lowest common denominator, which is not good. Right, 531 00:28:21,604 --> 00:28:24,844 Speaker 1: That is not kind of catering to the lowest common 532 00:28:24,844 --> 00:28:27,004 Speaker 1: denominator is never never a good phenomenon. 533 00:28:27,684 --> 00:28:30,964 Speaker 2: In summary, Twitter sucks and Blue Sky sucks a little 534 00:28:30,964 --> 00:28:31,324 Speaker 2: bit more. 535 00:28:31,804 --> 00:28:35,084 Speaker 1: It makes opinion, I would say they both suck. Twitter 536 00:28:35,124 --> 00:28:37,844 Speaker 1: sucks a little bit more. So we will we will 537 00:28:37,884 --> 00:28:40,484 Speaker 1: disagree on that, and we both agree that the types 538 00:28:40,524 --> 00:28:43,324 Speaker 1: of platforms and the types of thinking fostered by that 539 00:28:43,364 --> 00:28:45,924 Speaker 1: approach to social media is not good and sucks, and 540 00:28:45,964 --> 00:28:49,204 Speaker 1: we need something better. Let's take a break, and then 541 00:28:49,284 --> 00:29:07,844 Speaker 1: let's talk about some chess. Are you a chess fan Nate. 542 00:29:08,804 --> 00:29:11,684 Speaker 2: Frame that I know, I kind of I'm like adjacent 543 00:29:11,684 --> 00:29:13,724 Speaker 2: to a lot of chess fans, right, so I absorbed 544 00:29:13,724 --> 00:29:17,204 Speaker 2: some of it through kind of like like Darryl Moory 545 00:29:17,244 --> 00:29:19,604 Speaker 2: who he spoke with, yeah in the previous episodes, a 546 00:29:19,644 --> 00:29:21,604 Speaker 2: big chess fan, so you get something through him and 547 00:29:21,644 --> 00:29:24,764 Speaker 2: people read on the internet. But I you know, I'm 548 00:29:24,804 --> 00:29:26,724 Speaker 2: a casual follower. 549 00:29:26,804 --> 00:29:29,844 Speaker 1: I'd say, yeah, so were you? Were you aware though, 550 00:29:29,884 --> 00:29:32,964 Speaker 1: even as a casual follower of the World Championship defense 551 00:29:33,004 --> 00:29:34,284 Speaker 1: that happened last week a. 552 00:29:34,324 --> 00:29:37,844 Speaker 2: Little bit and then from reading your sub stack, Yeah. 553 00:29:37,044 --> 00:29:40,364 Speaker 1: Okay, so for people for people who didn't see it, 554 00:29:41,244 --> 00:29:45,044 Speaker 1: The World Chess Champion, former World Chess Champion Deng lu 555 00:29:45,124 --> 00:29:51,244 Speaker 1: Zen was defending his championship title last week, and he 556 00:29:51,324 --> 00:29:55,844 Speaker 1: made a blunder. So they were tied, and they were 557 00:29:55,884 --> 00:29:58,484 Speaker 1: playing in a match that seemed like it would also 558 00:29:59,044 --> 00:30:02,324 Speaker 1: be a tie, and then he blundered, and he made 559 00:30:02,364 --> 00:30:05,324 Speaker 1: a blunder that was so bad that every chess expert 560 00:30:05,484 --> 00:30:07,804 Speaker 1: you know, you can read about this in every person 561 00:30:07,924 --> 00:30:11,804 Speaker 1: I spoke to. I spoke with Jennifer Shahade, who is 562 00:30:11,964 --> 00:30:17,044 Speaker 1: a former women's chess champion of the United States twice 563 00:30:17,084 --> 00:30:19,764 Speaker 1: and the only woman I believe to have ever won 564 00:30:20,004 --> 00:30:24,244 Speaker 1: the Junior Chess Championship Open in the United States woman grandmaster, 565 00:30:24,324 --> 00:30:27,324 Speaker 1: and she said, like people, it was just like horrific, right, like, 566 00:30:27,684 --> 00:30:30,564 Speaker 1: you do not make that kind of a mistake at 567 00:30:30,564 --> 00:30:32,964 Speaker 1: that level, even at much lower levels. It was so 568 00:30:33,004 --> 00:30:35,764 Speaker 1: bad that she went overrote with her son, who is 569 00:30:35,924 --> 00:30:39,004 Speaker 1: who is little and who was learning learning how to 570 00:30:39,004 --> 00:30:43,764 Speaker 1: play chess. And so he blundered and an eighteen year 571 00:30:43,764 --> 00:30:49,804 Speaker 1: old Gukesh Domaraju was able to claim the World Championship title, 572 00:30:49,844 --> 00:30:56,484 Speaker 1: becoming the youngest ever world chess champion. Yeah, Gary Kasparoff 573 00:30:56,604 --> 00:30:59,084 Speaker 1: used to hold that title. He was twenty two, and 574 00:30:59,164 --> 00:31:03,044 Speaker 1: so this was a huge, huge moment and I am 575 00:31:03,124 --> 00:31:05,244 Speaker 1: interested in it, and this is what I wrote about it. 576 00:31:05,324 --> 00:31:08,204 Speaker 1: Not because you know, this is a show about chess strategy, 577 00:31:09,044 --> 00:31:12,084 Speaker 1: but because of like the psychology behind it, right, Like 578 00:31:12,964 --> 00:31:15,564 Speaker 1: we've we've been there, and I'm sure I know I've 579 00:31:15,564 --> 00:31:19,084 Speaker 1: been there in poker, right like you sometimes like you 580 00:31:19,204 --> 00:31:23,084 Speaker 1: just have a brain fart. And sometimes a brain fart 581 00:31:23,124 --> 00:31:25,244 Speaker 1: isn't just a brain fart, right, Like, it can be 582 00:31:25,324 --> 00:31:28,564 Speaker 1: a brain fart that's like a blunder of epic proportions. Now, 583 00:31:28,764 --> 00:31:31,524 Speaker 1: you and I have never played on that kind of 584 00:31:31,604 --> 00:31:34,484 Speaker 1: a global stage where we're you know, defending our world 585 00:31:34,604 --> 00:31:37,644 Speaker 1: championship title. But you see this all the time in 586 00:31:38,204 --> 00:31:41,004 Speaker 1: high performance athletes, whether it's mental games or whether it's 587 00:31:41,044 --> 00:31:44,484 Speaker 1: actually physical games, where someone who's really really good just 588 00:31:44,564 --> 00:31:47,444 Speaker 1: chokes right and just has this kind of moment where 589 00:31:47,524 --> 00:31:52,164 Speaker 1: like what just happened, right, like a holy shit moment? 590 00:31:52,684 --> 00:31:56,444 Speaker 1: And I, you know, every when I see that, like 591 00:31:56,724 --> 00:32:00,044 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated in, you know, the psychology behind that, the 592 00:32:00,044 --> 00:32:04,244 Speaker 1: psychology of why kind of high high performance people can 593 00:32:04,324 --> 00:32:07,884 Speaker 1: actually you know, experience moments like that. And I'm sure 594 00:32:07,924 --> 00:32:10,764 Speaker 1: you've seen that much. I've seen that often in sports 595 00:32:10,844 --> 00:32:14,844 Speaker 1: like actual sports. I don't follow actual sports as closely 596 00:32:15,204 --> 00:32:17,604 Speaker 1: as you do, but in mind sports, you know, I 597 00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:19,764 Speaker 1: wrote about a brain fart that I had that was 598 00:32:19,964 --> 00:32:23,444 Speaker 1: that was a little bit less less extreme, but that 599 00:32:23,564 --> 00:32:27,004 Speaker 1: you know, changed the outcome of the napt the Poker 600 00:32:27,044 --> 00:32:29,444 Speaker 1: Stars event that I just went deep in. So these 601 00:32:29,444 --> 00:32:33,324 Speaker 1: things matter. And you know, when you're in high pressure situations, 602 00:32:33,364 --> 00:32:36,804 Speaker 1: mental game and your ability to perform is incredibly important. 603 00:32:38,084 --> 00:32:40,284 Speaker 1: But even the best people who have strong mental game 604 00:32:40,724 --> 00:32:41,644 Speaker 1: sometimes screw up. 605 00:32:42,684 --> 00:32:44,844 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot about this in my book On 606 00:32:44,964 --> 00:32:48,244 Speaker 2: the Edge the ARTI for seeing everything from Penguin Press 607 00:32:48,244 --> 00:32:52,724 Speaker 2: and but about performance under pressure and actually the physiological 608 00:32:52,844 --> 00:32:57,444 Speaker 2: changes that you experience under pressure, because it's not just mental, right, No, No, 609 00:32:57,484 --> 00:33:03,324 Speaker 2: there's Evolutionarily our bodies understand when we're in high stake situations, 610 00:33:03,324 --> 00:33:08,564 Speaker 2: whether they're physical or mental or somewhere in between. You 611 00:33:09,604 --> 00:33:12,644 Speaker 2: not fake, and you don't necessarily want to fake because 612 00:33:12,684 --> 00:33:15,724 Speaker 2: actually your body is more alert and getting more information. Right, 613 00:33:16,564 --> 00:33:20,524 Speaker 2: if you're playing a the final table of a ten 614 00:33:20,604 --> 00:33:23,244 Speaker 2: thousand dollars poker tournament, as Marie and I hope to do, right, 615 00:33:24,244 --> 00:33:26,004 Speaker 2: you are going to react differently than when you're playing 616 00:33:26,004 --> 00:33:28,004 Speaker 2: your one dollar two dollars home game on Tuesday. 617 00:33:28,084 --> 00:33:30,604 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you. 618 00:33:30,684 --> 00:33:33,764 Speaker 2: Sell yourself and you counted your brain, but you're on 619 00:33:33,804 --> 00:33:36,004 Speaker 2: a different operating system where you your heart rate would 620 00:33:36,004 --> 00:33:36,644 Speaker 2: be a lot higher. 621 00:33:36,724 --> 00:33:36,924 Speaker 1: Right. 622 00:33:38,844 --> 00:33:40,964 Speaker 2: You know, some people become more intuitive, which can be 623 00:33:41,004 --> 00:33:43,324 Speaker 2: a good thing or a bad thing, but like it 624 00:33:43,364 --> 00:33:45,884 Speaker 2: becomes you know, you can be in the zone where 625 00:33:45,884 --> 00:33:47,724 Speaker 2: you're like just kind of feel like I'm seeing things 626 00:33:47,764 --> 00:33:50,244 Speaker 2: that's happened to me a handful of times, right, or 627 00:33:50,284 --> 00:33:54,324 Speaker 2: you can choke. So when you run deep in a 628 00:33:54,324 --> 00:33:56,684 Speaker 2: poker tournament, like really deep. So I played in twenty 629 00:33:56,724 --> 00:34:00,524 Speaker 2: twenty three, I both made like day five of the 630 00:34:00,564 --> 00:34:03,164 Speaker 2: Millionaire Maker and day six of the main Event, right, 631 00:34:03,204 --> 00:34:06,644 Speaker 2: And so you see what happens in these big soft tournaments. 632 00:34:06,644 --> 00:34:08,204 Speaker 2: The Main Event, by the way, is like one of 633 00:34:08,204 --> 00:34:11,044 Speaker 2: the softest poker tournaments. And in the world, lots of 634 00:34:11,124 --> 00:34:14,004 Speaker 2: kind of rich yolo guys come and show up, right, 635 00:34:14,084 --> 00:34:17,564 Speaker 2: lots of people who qualify in some way, and like, 636 00:34:18,124 --> 00:34:23,044 Speaker 2: so this is a population of predominantly amateurs, right, and 637 00:34:23,084 --> 00:34:26,404 Speaker 2: they just lose their shit when the pressure is on. Right. 638 00:34:26,484 --> 00:34:29,564 Speaker 2: Some of them probably have like it's a self sabotage 639 00:34:30,364 --> 00:34:33,044 Speaker 2: complex or like survivorship guilt. Some of them are just tired. 640 00:34:33,044 --> 00:34:35,324 Speaker 2: They've been playing poker for you know, a six year 641 00:34:35,324 --> 00:34:37,444 Speaker 2: old guy who's not used to playing poker all day. 642 00:34:37,444 --> 00:34:39,364 Speaker 2: Now it plays high stressed poker for four days in 643 00:34:39,364 --> 00:34:41,844 Speaker 2: a row, for twelve hours with all these younger kids 644 00:34:41,884 --> 00:34:44,244 Speaker 2: and like, and then maybe they lose a big pot 645 00:34:44,284 --> 00:34:47,044 Speaker 2: and they freak out and they and they tilt, and 646 00:34:47,124 --> 00:34:50,564 Speaker 2: you see people shaking to the point where you know 647 00:34:50,644 --> 00:34:53,444 Speaker 2: it almost looks like they have some type of medical 648 00:34:53,444 --> 00:34:56,404 Speaker 2: condition because but but because your body is having a profound, 649 00:34:57,124 --> 00:35:00,164 Speaker 2: like physiological response to stress, and then it goes away 650 00:35:00,164 --> 00:35:04,084 Speaker 2: the minute hit the hands over. Okay, So if you 651 00:35:04,484 --> 00:35:06,364 Speaker 2: do not eventually adapt to that in poker, then you 652 00:35:06,444 --> 00:35:09,604 Speaker 2: probably don't get very far. So you filter in fromtional 653 00:35:09,644 --> 00:35:13,324 Speaker 2: setting people who like who are either tolerant other type 654 00:35:13,364 --> 00:35:15,484 Speaker 2: of stress or even enjoy it, the sickos of Michael 655 00:35:15,564 --> 00:35:19,404 Speaker 2: Jordan's of the world who enjoy the stress. 656 00:35:19,484 --> 00:35:19,604 Speaker 1: Right. 657 00:35:19,684 --> 00:35:23,124 Speaker 2: Jason Kuhn, another very good fucker player quotuck to the book, 658 00:35:24,404 --> 00:35:26,604 Speaker 2: grew up in this very rough upbringing in West Virginia 659 00:35:26,644 --> 00:35:28,284 Speaker 2: and had like an abusive father and things like that. 660 00:35:28,284 --> 00:35:30,964 Speaker 2: And he's like, yeah, for me, it's like that's natural, right, 661 00:35:30,964 --> 00:35:32,964 Speaker 2: Like high stress, I feel kind of more comfortable in 662 00:35:32,964 --> 00:35:37,204 Speaker 2: a fucked up way under high stress. So yeah, impressional sports. 663 00:35:37,204 --> 00:35:40,324 Speaker 2: It's rare to see someone who will survive through the 664 00:35:40,324 --> 00:35:42,444 Speaker 2: gauntlet of high school and college and whatever else. You know. 665 00:35:42,484 --> 00:35:45,644 Speaker 2: Ben Simmons, the former Philadelphia seventy six er, is kind 666 00:35:45,644 --> 00:35:51,004 Speaker 2: of an exception. He's known as a choke artist and Parkers. 667 00:35:51,044 --> 00:35:54,284 Speaker 2: He's so naturally talented that he could kind of overcome that, right, 668 00:35:54,324 --> 00:35:56,244 Speaker 2: But like usually you kind of feelter that out. But 669 00:35:56,484 --> 00:35:59,844 Speaker 2: it's like not a natural thing to be, like to 670 00:35:59,884 --> 00:36:02,924 Speaker 2: have the eyes of the world kind of literally upon you. 671 00:36:03,004 --> 00:36:04,884 Speaker 2: This is all live stream, right, and like, you know, 672 00:36:05,044 --> 00:36:08,004 Speaker 2: the most high pressure moment of his life. And so 673 00:36:08,084 --> 00:36:11,044 Speaker 2: I'm very I'm very very empathetic. But chess is kind 674 00:36:11,084 --> 00:36:13,564 Speaker 2: of you know, it's not quite like poker, and that 675 00:36:13,644 --> 00:36:15,684 Speaker 2: like an amateur I could go play in a much 676 00:36:15,724 --> 00:36:18,084 Speaker 2: tougher tournament than I'm qualified for in poker, I still 677 00:36:18,124 --> 00:36:20,964 Speaker 2: have a chance of winning. Right, if I entered a 678 00:36:21,484 --> 00:36:25,684 Speaker 2: Chess World Championship, I guarantee you, I guarantee you I 679 00:36:25,724 --> 00:36:30,004 Speaker 2: get checkmated within ten moves every single time. Right, There's 680 00:36:30,044 --> 00:36:34,364 Speaker 2: not a lot of luck in chess, so the cream 681 00:36:34,444 --> 00:36:37,084 Speaker 2: rises to the top. But still still, you know, and 682 00:36:37,124 --> 00:36:39,924 Speaker 2: then it can be things like if you're a little tired. 683 00:36:39,964 --> 00:36:41,564 Speaker 2: I used to try to like do things like be 684 00:36:41,644 --> 00:36:44,324 Speaker 2: a hero. I want to play a poker tournament, and like, oh, 685 00:36:44,324 --> 00:36:45,924 Speaker 2: I'll just skip lunch. I you know how if you 686 00:36:45,964 --> 00:36:49,124 Speaker 2: make too many calories yesterday, so I'll skip lunch and 687 00:36:49,124 --> 00:36:51,084 Speaker 2: wait till the dinner break and like and you know, 688 00:36:51,164 --> 00:36:52,884 Speaker 2: you play enough, and you kind of see that when 689 00:36:52,884 --> 00:36:55,804 Speaker 2: you're physically tired, when you have other stresses in your life, 690 00:36:55,804 --> 00:36:59,524 Speaker 2: when you're hungry, then you play you worse, right, and 691 00:36:59,524 --> 00:37:02,844 Speaker 2: it kind of comes out in ways that aren't necessarily conscious, 692 00:37:02,884 --> 00:37:05,484 Speaker 2: but like rather like you know, you just kind of 693 00:37:05,484 --> 00:37:07,124 Speaker 2: punt a hand. You're like, you know, actually there's problem 694 00:37:07,164 --> 00:37:09,764 Speaker 2: on body telling me that, Like this post's probably pretty different, 695 00:37:09,764 --> 00:37:11,244 Speaker 2: and I really need to get some fucking dinner, right. 696 00:37:11,284 --> 00:37:14,004 Speaker 2: And you've done that enough where you kind of learn 697 00:37:14,044 --> 00:37:16,044 Speaker 2: how your body and your mind are are not so 698 00:37:16,084 --> 00:37:16,844 Speaker 2: easy to separate. 699 00:37:17,444 --> 00:37:20,524 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And I think that it's impossible, like 700 00:37:20,564 --> 00:37:23,404 Speaker 1: you cannot underestimate the effects of fatigue. And this is 701 00:37:23,404 --> 00:37:27,084 Speaker 1: what I mean. Dangla Jen was incredibly tired, right, this 702 00:37:27,164 --> 00:37:28,804 Speaker 1: is not He didn't blunder in the first game. He 703 00:37:28,844 --> 00:37:31,804 Speaker 1: had a beautiful first game like this is we're fourteen 704 00:37:31,844 --> 00:37:35,004 Speaker 1: games in here, and you know that that really and 705 00:37:35,284 --> 00:37:37,724 Speaker 1: it was I think four hours into the match, right, So, 706 00:37:37,884 --> 00:37:40,204 Speaker 1: like you you've been thinking at that high level for 707 00:37:40,244 --> 00:37:43,044 Speaker 1: a very long time. And something that I think that 708 00:37:43,204 --> 00:37:46,164 Speaker 1: a lot of poker players can probably relate to is 709 00:37:46,484 --> 00:37:49,764 Speaker 1: sometimes like when you've been working so hard for so long, 710 00:37:50,044 --> 00:37:52,004 Speaker 1: like you just want to simplify, right, Like you just 711 00:37:52,044 --> 00:37:54,044 Speaker 1: want it to be over. Like in poker, there's like 712 00:37:54,164 --> 00:37:56,044 Speaker 1: the tendency to go all in. Right, You're like, I 713 00:37:56,084 --> 00:37:57,924 Speaker 1: don't want to play post flop, like I don't want 714 00:37:57,964 --> 00:38:00,964 Speaker 1: to like have that complex decision making like he four 715 00:38:01,004 --> 00:38:03,404 Speaker 1: bet me, like fuck it, I'm all in, or lucky 716 00:38:03,524 --> 00:38:06,004 Speaker 1: three bet me, like fucking I'm all in for sixty 717 00:38:06,044 --> 00:38:08,484 Speaker 1: big blinds, right like whoa who whoa, whoa whoa. But 718 00:38:08,524 --> 00:38:11,844 Speaker 1: I've done that. Sometimes sometimes you're just like I don't 719 00:38:11,884 --> 00:38:15,244 Speaker 1: want to think through the complexities. Please simplify this for me. 720 00:38:15,524 --> 00:38:18,564 Speaker 1: And this is something that like I said, I'm not 721 00:38:18,604 --> 00:38:21,044 Speaker 1: a chess expert. When I talked to Jen and she 722 00:38:21,084 --> 00:38:22,764 Speaker 1: said that she's going to be writing about this on 723 00:38:22,804 --> 00:38:26,324 Speaker 1: her substack. She actually thinks that this is a good 724 00:38:26,764 --> 00:38:30,804 Speaker 1: kind of strategically this is part of what happened in 725 00:38:30,844 --> 00:38:34,724 Speaker 1: this particular case where he was trying to simplify the 726 00:38:34,804 --> 00:38:36,844 Speaker 1: end game. He was trying to kind of get it 727 00:38:37,004 --> 00:38:41,924 Speaker 1: to a stalemate more quickly, and he made a mistake 728 00:38:42,004 --> 00:38:44,644 Speaker 1: while he was doing that. So as opposed to kind 729 00:38:44,644 --> 00:38:47,404 Speaker 1: of just playing it out, he just wanted he just 730 00:38:47,444 --> 00:38:49,564 Speaker 1: wanted it to be over. And I think that's a 731 00:38:49,684 --> 00:38:54,084 Speaker 1: very very human that's a very human tendency and that's 732 00:38:54,124 --> 00:38:56,364 Speaker 1: something that you know, we should be aware of. But 733 00:38:57,084 --> 00:39:00,124 Speaker 1: I will end by saying, like he has remarkable self awareness, right, 734 00:39:00,164 --> 00:39:03,644 Speaker 1: Like he is someone who I think will take this 735 00:39:03,764 --> 00:39:07,724 Speaker 1: opportunity and learn from it, or at least I hope so, 736 00:39:07,844 --> 00:39:11,244 Speaker 1: because he you know, he dared to come back after 737 00:39:11,724 --> 00:39:17,204 Speaker 1: depression after losing dozens of games in a row, and 738 00:39:17,844 --> 00:39:20,604 Speaker 1: you know, he did not perform while after becoming the 739 00:39:20,604 --> 00:39:24,124 Speaker 1: world champion. Clearly that stress got to him and he's back. 740 00:39:24,204 --> 00:39:26,764 Speaker 1: So I think that that's kind of the other part 741 00:39:26,764 --> 00:39:29,404 Speaker 1: of mental game where everyone's going to choke at some point, 742 00:39:29,444 --> 00:39:31,644 Speaker 1: Like we're all going to have that moment where like 743 00:39:31,724 --> 00:39:34,724 Speaker 1: we fuck up, and how you react to that I 744 00:39:34,764 --> 00:39:37,524 Speaker 1: think is kind of the is the true kind of 745 00:39:37,604 --> 00:39:39,684 Speaker 1: the true test, right do you say Okay, you know 746 00:39:39,764 --> 00:39:42,004 Speaker 1: I fucked up, and then how do I avoid it 747 00:39:42,044 --> 00:39:44,364 Speaker 1: next time? Or do you just lose your shit completely? 748 00:39:45,324 --> 00:39:48,924 Speaker 1: On that note, Nate, let's go and play day two 749 00:39:49,244 --> 00:39:51,724 Speaker 1: of the Win Championship main event. 750 00:39:51,964 --> 00:39:55,364 Speaker 2: Yeah, we both made it. I have a decent stack. Maria, 751 00:39:55,404 --> 00:39:59,724 Speaker 2: I texted you, how you doing what Sunday? She's like, Oh, 752 00:39:59,724 --> 00:40:02,964 Speaker 2: it's going good. I'm like, yo, how many chips do 753 00:40:03,044 --> 00:40:03,324 Speaker 2: you have? 754 00:40:03,404 --> 00:40:03,604 Speaker 1: Right? 755 00:40:03,924 --> 00:40:07,604 Speaker 2: I knew that you had a lot of chips. I 756 00:40:07,644 --> 00:40:08,964 Speaker 2: knew you had a lot of chips when you were 757 00:40:08,964 --> 00:40:11,124 Speaker 2: too say how many chips you had? 758 00:40:12,844 --> 00:40:12,964 Speaker 1: All? 759 00:40:13,044 --> 00:40:13,244 Speaker 2: Right? 760 00:40:14,284 --> 00:40:17,604 Speaker 1: On that note, let's both hope for a smooth sailing 761 00:40:17,724 --> 00:40:19,964 Speaker 1: day two. We are not yet in the money. By 762 00:40:20,004 --> 00:40:22,724 Speaker 1: the time you all hear this on Thursday, we will 763 00:40:22,764 --> 00:40:25,084 Speaker 1: know how we did. But right now, you know it's 764 00:40:25,404 --> 00:40:28,084 Speaker 1: an open question. And so here's to some run good 765 00:40:28,124 --> 00:40:36,204 Speaker 1: and good luck for the day. Let us know what 766 00:40:36,244 --> 00:40:38,644 Speaker 1: you think of the show. Reach out to us at 767 00:40:38,964 --> 00:40:44,524 Speaker 1: Risky Business at Pushkin dot FM. Risky Business is hosted 768 00:40:44,524 --> 00:40:46,804 Speaker 1: by me Maria Kannikova. 769 00:40:46,164 --> 00:40:47,484 Speaker 2: And byby Nate Silver. 770 00:40:48,084 --> 00:40:51,604 Speaker 1: The show is a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. 771 00:40:52,124 --> 00:40:55,684 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer 772 00:40:55,764 --> 00:40:59,284 Speaker 1: is Gabriel Hunter Chang. Our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. 773 00:40:59,924 --> 00:41:02,044 Speaker 2: If you like the show, please rate and review us 774 00:41:02,044 --> 00:41:04,084 Speaker 2: so all the people can find us too. And if 775 00:41:04,084 --> 00:41:06,364 Speaker 2: you want to listen to an AD free version, sign 776 00:41:06,404 --> 00:41:09,124 Speaker 2: up for Pushkin Plus. For six ten nine a month, 777 00:41:09,124 --> 00:41:11,964 Speaker 2: you access to ad free listening. Thanks for tuning in.