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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Governor Tim Walls says Dems need

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Speaker 1: to be a little meaner. He's from the Midwest. We

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Speaker 1: have such a great show for you today. The Lincoln

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Speaker 1: Project's own Rick Wilson joins us to discuss elon short

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Speaker 1: lived rain on Doge and what his exit from the

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Speaker 1: District of Columbia means. Then we'll talk to MSNBC's Antonia

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Speaker 1: Hilton about her new NBC News digital doc The Children's Pastor.

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Speaker 1: But first the news.

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Speaker 2: Molly so a few times on the show, the news

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Speaker 2: has come right into our own backyard.

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Speaker 1: And in this time it's really yes.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have probably seen the news that DHS

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Speaker 2: officials arrested a staffer from Jerry Nidler's office. Temporarily. Prominently

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Speaker 2: in that video is my wife, and the staffer was

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Speaker 2: arrested as a friend of mine and one of the sweetest,

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Speaker 2: most amazing people I know. And I hate very much

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Speaker 2: that this happened to her, because I can't think of

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Speaker 2: anyone I'd rather not happen to more. But obviously this

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Speaker 2: was a very gross misstep. They said they were looking

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Speaker 2: for rioters. There was no riot going on. There was

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Speaker 2: people protesting the immigration courts where Eric Adams has allowed

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Speaker 2: Christy Nomes DHS to come in and arrest people going

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Speaker 2: in their immigration court dates, which is in the same

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Speaker 2: building as Congressman Nadler's offices. And in the video circulating

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Speaker 2: you can see my wife not allowing them entry without

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Speaker 2: a warrant into the office at first. I think the

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Speaker 2: thing I'd like to say, I'm be curious of your thoughts, Molly.

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Speaker 2: Is we on a recent episode discussed that Stephen Miller

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Speaker 2: has said that they have to do more arrests and

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Speaker 2: ratchet things up. And this is what happens when you

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Speaker 2: in bolden law enforcement to go even harder, is that

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Speaker 2: you have roast smith steps like this.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this is so fucked up, And I think that

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Speaker 1: it's important to remember this's a member of Congress, Democrat

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Speaker 1: who represents the majority of Manhattan. So then why are

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Speaker 1: they arresting staffers in a congressman's office. Why are they

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Speaker 1: arresting staffers of a Democratic congressman? And I think the

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Speaker 1: most likely scenario is because they want to intimidate them, right,

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Speaker 1: there's no way these people are writers, right, they are

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Speaker 1: staffers for a member of Congress. So the question is

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Speaker 1: what does this mean. I mean, you have these are

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Speaker 1: members of the law enforcement trying to intimidate democratic elected

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Speaker 1: and their staff. I think that we see what this is, right,

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Speaker 1: This is autocratic stuff. Right, when you start arresting your

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Speaker 1: political enemy, is just like Bukel does in Venezuela. You

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Speaker 1: are an autocrat. These are autocratic things, right, Just like

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Speaker 1: Trump administration is going to war with Harvard, they are

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Speaker 1: now trying to arrest their political opponents. And I think

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Speaker 1: that there is a real straight line here. I think

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Speaker 1: we have to be clear eyed. I think we have

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Speaker 1: to understand this is real autocratic stuff. This is not

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Speaker 1: people breaking the law. This doesn't even look like people

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Speaker 1: breaking the law. This looks like people working in an

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Speaker 1: office for a Democratic congressman. And this is not something

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Speaker 1: where it's like we know what this happened. Because Jesse's

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Speaker 1: wife was there.

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Speaker 2: She's our picture is on every major news website as

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Speaker 2: we speak.

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Speaker 1: Right, So this isn't like maybe the reporting is wrong,

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Speaker 1: maybe this didn't happen the way they're saying it. Jesse's

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Speaker 1: wife saw it happen.

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Speaker 2: It's also on video, right, it's.

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Speaker 1: On video obviously, but it's more like we even know

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Speaker 1: someone where this happened. So we really have like firsthand

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Speaker 1: knowledge of DHS going into the office of a Democratic

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Speaker 1: congressperson who represents much of Manhattan and arresting a member

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Speaker 1: of his staff. Now, in the end, Jerry Nadler was

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Speaker 1: able to explain to these people that they had no

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Speaker 1: basis to arrest a member of his staff. But I

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Speaker 1: think it's important to realize here, this is what's happening

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Speaker 1: in America. Okay, this is autocracy. This is it's here. Okay,

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Speaker 1: autocracy is here. The war, the Trump administration's war against Harvard,

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Speaker 1: them arresting members of a Democratic congressman's staff, this is here.

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Speaker 1: Autocracy is here. And I think we have to be

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Speaker 1: clear eyed. We have to understand what we're dealing with,

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Speaker 1: and we have to push back in every possible peaceful

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Speaker 1: way we can, because this is we have. The door

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Speaker 1: has been opened to this. The second Trump administration was

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Speaker 1: the opening of the door to Trump's worst authoritarian instincts.

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Speaker 1: And we have to be really clear eyed about what's happening.

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Speaker 1: We have to push back, we have to fight in

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Speaker 1: nonviolent but important and smart ways and protect ourselves each

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Speaker 1: other and also American democracy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I should also say I cannot be more

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Speaker 2: proud of my wife for the way she handled this

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Speaker 2: sid what you see her doing that video is exactly

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Speaker 2: what we all have to do if this comes to

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Speaker 2: our door, which is, we have to demand that they

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Speaker 2: use due process and that they don't skirt the law

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Speaker 2: with their tough guy tactics and bluster her. And that's

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Speaker 2: exactly what you see her do there, And I cannot

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Speaker 2: be more proud of what she did.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Jesse Canon, wife guy, and we love it. We

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Speaker 1: love it, and it happens to be that that wife

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Speaker 1: is awesome. So really happy that we get to celebrate

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Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon's wife guyness, but also that wife happens to

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Speaker 1: be the best. So I'm glad that everybody's safe. And

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Speaker 1: in the end, Jeryndler really did protect his staff, which

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Speaker 1: is really it says a lot of good stuff about

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Speaker 1: jery Nandler. Despite the fact that I'm mad at him

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Speaker 1: for any number of things in which I'm mad at

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Speaker 1: members of elected I am, in fact, really glad to

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Speaker 1: see this, and that's what we all need to be doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Molly in more of our idiocracy news type

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Speaker 2: thing instead of our authoritarian news. Tulsi Gabbert, she's got

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Speaker 2: to do some innovative stuff here as D and I chief,

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Speaker 2: and she's considering ways to revamp Trump's intelligence BRIEFIX to

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Speaker 2: appeal to his absolutely awful attention span.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, this is again let us file this

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Speaker 1: under Thank god they're idiots, because otherwise we'd all be cooked.

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Speaker 1: And look, we may all end up being cooked. But

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Speaker 1: right now, the biggest problem is that. And again this

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Speaker 1: is Tulsi Gabbert, right, the woman who defended Bisher, right,

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Speaker 1: the butcher of Syria, president of Syria who gots his

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Speaker 1: own people. This guy not a good guy. Telsey Gabbert

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Speaker 1: very dubious, spouts Russian propaganda. Hillary Clinton said she was

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Speaker 1: a Russian asset. Again, who is to say, but she

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Speaker 1: is the woman who delivers the presidential Daily Brief, which

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Speaker 1: is in itself very worrying. But one of her big problems,

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Speaker 1: because Trump is a moron and she is perhaps compromised,

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Speaker 1: is that Trump eat too interested in the PDB, and

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Speaker 1: so one of the things that they that his staff

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Speaker 1: has had to do. And this was true in Trump

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Speaker 1: one point zero two is try to get him interested

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Speaker 1: in it, And so Gabbert has figured out that the

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Speaker 1: only way that she can get him interested is to

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Speaker 1: make it seem like perhaps Fox News. Look again, Fox

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Speaker 1: News hosts are the one thing that has been with

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Speaker 1: both administrations Trump one point o Trump two point zero

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Speaker 1: is that the most powerful people in the world, at

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Speaker 1: least in this moment are Fox News is programmers and bookers,

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Speaker 1: because they are the people who are actually getting Trump's attention.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is hilarious as there's headlines that say

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Speaker 2: things this week like Trump was not informed of Ukraine

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Speaker 2: attack on Russia. And it's because this we've read these

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Speaker 2: reports so many times that he can't pay attention to these.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, so again, Americans may be tuning out, but

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Speaker 1: so is their presence.

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Speaker 2: Boy well, speaking of tuning out, Mike Johnson, Speaker of

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Speaker 2: the House's Brain, who I don't think it's just so

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Speaker 2: tuned in. He says, four point eight million Americans won't

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Speaker 2: lose Medicaid access unless they choose.

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Speaker 3: To do so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So they choose to do so, they will. Again,

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Speaker 1: this is the whole thing that they've been doing on

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Speaker 1: the Sunday shows is all of the members of this administration,

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Speaker 1: which I mean, good for them for going on the

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Speaker 1: Sunday shows, but bad for them for lying. They're lying

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Speaker 1: because look why Mike Johnson is going on Sunday shows

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Speaker 1: right now is because he knows that he needs the

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Speaker 1: Senate to pass the big beautiful bill filled with bullshit

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Speaker 1: the BBBB, the Big Beautiful Bullshit Bill is now it

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Speaker 1: has passed the House and it now needs the Senate.

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Speaker 1: Has been on vacation, but now the Senate is back,

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Speaker 1: and Johnson wants the Senate to pass the one piece

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Speaker 1: of legislation that this administration is going to pass. This

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Speaker 1: is likely the only thing they'll do by July fourth.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to make this July fourth deadline unless

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Speaker 1: the Senate is completely functions in a totally different way

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Speaker 1: than it has historically, which it may because remember, these

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Speaker 1: people have completely given up their power to Trump, and

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Speaker 1: so Trump was able to whip the House vote very

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Speaker 1: very fast by calling people and yelling at them or

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Speaker 1: doing something else. I don't know, maybe they were threatening them,

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Speaker 1: who even knows. But now this bill goes to the Senate.

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Speaker 1: The question is will Republican senators be the pathetic, craven

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Speaker 1: opportunists that they were with Trump's cabinet, And the answer

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Speaker 1: is maybe yes, right, I mean, they signed off on

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Speaker 1: things like putting RFK Junior in charge of all of

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Speaker 1: our health, which is why none of us know now

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Speaker 1: like bird flu, they cured it or maybe they didn't. Right,

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Speaker 1: we don't know what the fuck is going on there

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Speaker 1: because they're not releasing information, you know, and they've still

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Speaker 1: they're no longer recommending the COVID vaccine for pregnant women.

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Speaker 1: So and we all know that COVID can be very,

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Speaker 1: very terrible for pregnant women, right, I mean, we've seen

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Speaker 1: numerous stories about how it's much much worse for pregnant women.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know what's going to happen here, but

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Speaker 1: they are literally on television lying about what this bill

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Speaker 1: is going to do, at least what the House version

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Speaker 1: of this bill does. Again, these Medicare cuts may get

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Speaker 1: tempered in the Senate, but they may not. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we'll see what this Senate does. Again. You will not

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Speaker 1: lose money betting that Republicans will be cowardly. So there's

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Speaker 1: a likely scenario where Republicans in the Senate rubber stamp

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Speaker 1: Trump's agenda. And by the way, this is the MAGA

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Speaker 1: agenda in this House bill. So we'll see what happens.

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Speaker 1: But there is literally no evidence to support Republican bravery.

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Speaker 1: Rick Wilson is the founder of the Lincoln Project and

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Speaker 1: the host of the Enemy's List. Welcome back to past politics,

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Speaker 1: Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 3: Only Jong fast I would ask how you're doing, But

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Speaker 3: I know how you're doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing Okay, we did. We lost port Spartacus yesterday.

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Speaker 1: I had to put him down. Waited maybe a little

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Speaker 1: too long to put him down.

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Speaker 3: So that was the story with my Riley.

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Speaker 1: He yeah, you know, he was really in pain and

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Speaker 1: it was.

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Speaker 3: And that's just not fair. That's just not fair to them.

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Speaker 3: So you need the right thing.

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Speaker 1: There's a lesson in there to do it, maybe a

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Speaker 1: month or two earlier.

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Speaker 3: But enough about Elon being fired.

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Speaker 1: Yes, speaking of which, you see that interview, this CBS interview.

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Speaker 1: Was it CBS where they asked him about his work

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Speaker 1: with destroying the federal government and.

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Speaker 3: He's like, we're talking about rockets.

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Speaker 1: We're here to talk about We're not here to talk

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Speaker 1: about all the carnage.

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Speaker 3: I but apparently we are do you.

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Speaker 1: Get to turn it on and off like that? Is that?

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Speaker 3: No? Look, I have some rules about politics that I've

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Speaker 3: always followed and not everybody does. But you treat civilians

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Speaker 3: one way and active combatants in politics another. And he

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Speaker 3: chose to make himself an active combatant in our politics.

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Speaker 3: He chose to put himself in a position where he

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Speaker 3: hurt people, where he deliberately chose to hurt people. And

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Speaker 3: because of that, you don't get to walk back out

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Speaker 3: the door and go, never mind, Hey, I'm sorry I

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Speaker 3: burned down your village, but let's continue trading. You know,

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Speaker 3: it just doesn't work that way.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny because it's like we kept thinking right

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Speaker 1: when Trump took office in January, kept saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: we all had a clock going of how long Elon

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Speaker 1: would be interested in federal government play. It turns out

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Speaker 1: it's you know, now again, I think it's worth pausing

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Speaker 1: for a minute and realizing that part of why Elon

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Speaker 1: is making such a big show of leaving is because

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Speaker 1: it is one hundred. You know, it's whatever, the number is,

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Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty. It is yeah, that where a

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Speaker 1: special government, you know, where he would need technically congressional approval,

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Speaker 1: though this Congress has completely given up any authority, so

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Speaker 1: they might give it to him. But I just think

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Speaker 1: that there, you know, and and again, and there's so

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Speaker 1: much reporting this weekend about this. So and I've talked

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Speaker 1: to actually people who were, you know, talking about how

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Speaker 1: they've put people in as deputy chief of staff and

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Speaker 1: different federal agencies who are like recent college grads. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: So there are a lot of people in these agencies

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Speaker 1: that are just Elon holdovers, and maybe they're ideologically in

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Speaker 1: lined with them, and maybe they're not.

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Speaker 3: There is a degree to which you can't pretend that

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Speaker 3: Doge hasn't become kind of an infection in the government.

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Speaker 3: These people, it has been a class of people were

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Speaker 3: attracted to work for Elon who are basically these little

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Speaker 3: in cell government terrorists, and they're having fun still and

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Speaker 3: a lot of them have figured out that there's not

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Speaker 3: really a lot of adult supervision in the Trump administration

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Speaker 3: right now. Even with you On gone, maybe the party's

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Speaker 3: a little less wild every night, but at play in

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Speaker 3: the government, they're still collecting our day in the government.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then of course there's palent here, which is

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Speaker 1: collecting our data which the government as well.

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Speaker 3: Which I want to say, and I know I know

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Speaker 3: that like the weakest form of teasing the MAGI is

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Speaker 3: what if Barack Obama did this? But I will tell you, Molly,

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Speaker 3: if Barack Obama or Joe Biden had suggested that a

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Speaker 3: single company that's a major donor to the president's owned

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Speaker 3: by a guy like Peter Thiel, who's a major supporter

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Speaker 3: of the president, collected all government data about every single

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Speaker 3: American citizen to run it through their super secret AI system,

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Speaker 3: Republicans would burn Washington to the ground and blow the

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Speaker 3: ashes around with a fucking leaf blower. Yeah, it would be,

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Speaker 3: they would go, absolutely say, and by the way, they

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Speaker 3: would be right to do so, a right, they'd be

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Speaker 3: right to do so.

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Speaker 1: But Democrats would never dare or do something like that.

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Speaker 3: No, of course not. They would go, wow, there's some

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Speaker 3: civil liberties stuff behind this. Maybe we do not do this,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, And and honestly, a lot of folks in

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Speaker 3: MAGA are are look at the Pallenger thing going wait,

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Speaker 3: what what us wait us to us?

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Speaker 2: Two?

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Speaker 3: What you use? I thought it was only the bad people.

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Speaker 1: It's It's is honestly kind of amazing that there's so

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Speaker 1: much that they're just there's no sense in which they

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Speaker 1: believed any of the stuff they've been saying, right like,

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Speaker 1: And the very few people who have really stood up,

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Speaker 1: and there's very, very vanishingly few are the Libertarians, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the the only people Rand Paul, Thomas Massey.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are not how.

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Speaker 3: We find ourselves in agreement with Rand Paul more often

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Speaker 3: than not these days.

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Speaker 1: Because only because ramboll is the only person who's like,

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Speaker 1: this is not okay.

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Speaker 3: But you know, only and it trickles down everywhere. Mind.

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Speaker 3: They the thing this morning in the Times about the

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Speaker 3: Texas woman who is tracked through a series. There's a

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Speaker 3: company called Flock. Flock. Nobody's ever heard of Flock, but

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Speaker 3: they run a network of AI driven license plate reading

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Speaker 3: cameras around the whole country, and Texas is now using Flock.

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Speaker 3: These owned by these guys in Atlanta, Georgia. They're using

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Speaker 3: Flock to track women who they suspect of driving out

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Speaker 3: of Texas to get abortions in other states by monitoring

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Speaker 3: their license plate cameras. In what world is the government's

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Speaker 3: too big and needs to stay out of our business?

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Speaker 3: Do you track women down by tracking their license plate

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Speaker 3: across a network of ninety thousand cameras around the country.

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Speaker 1: Insane. I mean that is insane. That is let me

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Speaker 1: tell you how.

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Speaker 3: And the flock gives these cameras basically to communities around

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Speaker 3: the country so they can sell the data to other

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Speaker 3: people too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, no, that's and that is not none of it.

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Speaker 3: It is like that this intrusion. Pete Water had a

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Speaker 3: great piece about this, like, none of this is conservative,

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Speaker 3: none of this is republican, none of this is small government,

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Speaker 3: none of this is the state has too much power. Now,

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Speaker 3: it's like whatever daddy wants.

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Speaker 1: No, yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's it's just so crazy.

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Speaker 1: So let's just talk though for a minute about speaking

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Speaker 1: of Donald Trump being in great shape and totally I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about Donald Trump retweeting something.

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Speaker 3: That oh my god, I know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm going to read sort of a little

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Speaker 1: bit here because I think it's it is so stupid

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Speaker 1: that it should be just we should focus on a

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Speaker 1: two seconds. So, I mean, there's a lot there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of stupid shit. And by the way, a

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Speaker 1: lot of members of the Trump administration lying on the

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Speaker 1: Sunday shows, including the FDA Commissioner making up, you know,

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Speaker 1: stuff about vaccines. We had Russ Vought lying about.

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Speaker 3: They got Russ Loot out of his hole, though I

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Speaker 3: was kind of amazed by that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know Russ Vought. We had

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Speaker 1: him saying that he you know, he's still may impound funds.

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Speaker 1: He said, we're not in love with the law. That

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Speaker 1: was a great moment. He also said that Medicaid cuts

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Speaker 1: will not lose coverage. People won't lose coverage. We know

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Speaker 1: that it will be millions of people losing coverage. We

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Speaker 1: had more Jony Earnst double downing, but the one I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about is okay. So Donald Trump retweets

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Speaker 1: something that says that basically that there's no Joe Biden.

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Speaker 1: He was executed in twenty twenty, and their clones and doubles,

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Speaker 1: robotic engineered soulness, mindless entries are what you see now.

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Speaker 1: Philip Bump, who is a very straight down the middle,

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Speaker 1: very better than even odds that Trump shared this dumb

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Speaker 1: post because he didn't have his glasses on a like

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Speaker 1: the photo not impossible. And now the White House Press

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Speaker 1: Secretary will have to be like experts agree, it's quite

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Speaker 1: possible cyborgs walk across among us, no matter what the

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Speaker 1: fake news claims.

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Speaker 3: The fact that they are claiming now that Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: is dead and was replaced by an alien cyborg, clone.

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Speaker 1: Robot whatever, I mean, we don't know that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Trump definitely retweeted it. But again, try he retweeted it.

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Speaker 3: And here's the thing, Molly, this actually is a great

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Speaker 3: example and what Bump says there about. You know, Levitt

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Speaker 3: will go out and say the tweet speaks for itself

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Speaker 3: or something to that efface, and she'll get very aggressive.

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Speaker 3: And honestly, most reporters will just shrug and go, oh, okay,

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Speaker 3: he's just being crazy late at night, right, But I

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Speaker 3: think it deserves actually to be spoken about and looked

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Speaker 3: at and reviewed for what it is. It's one more

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Speaker 3: sign of his disconnection from reality. And it's also one

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Speaker 3: more sign that Trump has always been conscious of throwing

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Speaker 3: little bits of bait out to the weirdest edges of

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Speaker 3: his coalition.

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Speaker 1: And that feels there.

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Speaker 3: And I mean, he's got to be worried because Dan

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Speaker 3: Bongino is covering up all the Epstein stuff.

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Speaker 1: Now wait, say more about that.

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Speaker 3: Mauga's theory now is that cash Hotel, Dan Bongino and

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Speaker 3: Pam Bondi are secretly redacting all the Epstein stuff because

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Speaker 3: the deep state got to them.

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Speaker 1: That is really good. I have to say, it's so good.

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Speaker 1: That's a great story and so good. And you know,

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Speaker 1: the reality is you cannot once you get down the

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole here, like in.

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Speaker 3: Moh No, there's no escaping once once you start thinking

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Speaker 3: that there's a global lizard overlord conspiracy, you know, as

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Speaker 3: Hunter S. Thompson said, you know about about drugs, It's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, once you've gotta stash that big that the

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Speaker 3: temptation just go all in. I'm mangling the quote a

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Speaker 3: little bit, right, but it really is, you know, but

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Speaker 3: I think I think sometimes you can go back. There

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Speaker 3: have been times, like during the peak of the QAnon stuff,

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Speaker 3: when Trump was in a lot of political trouble, right,

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Speaker 3: he would throw out little things, you know, like I'm

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Speaker 3: the storm and all that shit, right right, And I

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Speaker 3: don't know that we can just dismiss this as a

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Speaker 3: as a a click error on Trump's part, because there

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Speaker 3: is a history of.

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Speaker 1: Him there is appealing to the cuckoo of his face. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I do want to also point out that I think

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Speaker 1: that's a really good point. I do think Trump is

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Speaker 1: again the Elon dislodgment is instability. Right, Whether or not

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Speaker 1: he's really gone whatever, who knows what to believe, but

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Speaker 1: there is a certain amount of instability now, I think.

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Speaker 3: I think the sign that it's gone, that Elon's lost

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Speaker 3: all of his political power is a weird small sign.

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Speaker 3: There was a guy named Jared Isaacman, and I will

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Speaker 3: just say this, in the realm of the Trump administration,

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Speaker 3: Jared Isaacman actually knew what he was going to be doing,

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Speaker 3: like actually had knowledge of space roid so he was

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Speaker 3: gonna be the head of NASA. But he was a

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Speaker 3: friend of Elon's. And so over the weekend Trump killed

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Speaker 3: Isaacman's appointment. He had about seventy five or eighty votes

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Speaker 3: in the Senate. He was really not a controversial guy.

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Speaker 3: But this is Susie Wiles, as I like to say,

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Speaker 3: settling all family business. She's crying up Elon. She's wanted

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Speaker 3: to kill elonof from the very beginning, right right right.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, the excuse they used is a

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Speaker 1: great one.

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Speaker 3: No, I actually hadn't heard the excuse yet.

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Speaker 1: That he donated to Democrats, and that's why they're cutting

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Speaker 1: him loose.

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Speaker 3: Trump the guy that gave Hillary Clinton over three hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars when she's running for US Senate.

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Speaker 1: That guy, that guy said And by the way, then

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Speaker 1: the reporting said, well, but the guy had told Trump

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Speaker 1: that he had donated to Democrats. But Trump didn't care.

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Speaker 3: Again, so had Steven Schwartzman and Mark Zuckerberg and Tim

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Speaker 3: Cook and Elon Musk and everybody else. No, I do

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Speaker 3: that that's not why they fired it. They fired because

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Speaker 3: they wouldn't get rid of anybody with an Elon power

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Speaker 3: center that Susie found threatening.

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Speaker 1: I do think that Trump will continue to torture Zuckerberg

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Speaker 1: and actually, oh yeah, yeah, and there is no world

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Speaker 1: in which Trump is going to forgive zuck I think

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Speaker 1: that's fair. Right.

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Speaker 3: No, never, Look, he's at war with Tim Cook, who's

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Speaker 3: like the least offensive of the tech guys, that's right,

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Speaker 3: and just been very very neutral about handling Trump and

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Speaker 3: very smart about it. But he's now like Apple has

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Speaker 3: to pay twenty five percent.

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Speaker 1: In the end, Really is the author of this thesis?

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Speaker 1: How good do you feel about the fact that it

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Speaker 1: really is? Is everything? Trump touches us.

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Speaker 3: Look like every day that I wish that people believe

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Speaker 3: the part two of.

435
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: It, which is.

436
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 3: Because I'm the one who can do you know this,

437
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 3: like the abusive boyfriend, things like I can cure him,

438
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 3: I can change him, Yeah, can you Yeah? That's that

439
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 3: that is That is somebody in abusive relationships. People here,

440
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 3: you know that. People, everybody knows a friend who's in

441
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 3: an abusive relationship or a bad relationship. It's like, I

442
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 3: can change him. It's my fault. No, you can't. Yeah,

443
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 3: And they never realize it. And it's like the illusion

444
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 3: and seduction of power is so meaningfully overwhelming to these people.

445
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 3: And a lot of the tech people are now using

446
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 3: the sort of excuse frame of well, I have to

447
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,719
Speaker 3: do what's best for my shareholders, and if I just

448
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 3: be nice to him, he'll find somebody else to be

449
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 3: pissed off that eventually.

450
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: I don't riot, I don't definitely not.

451
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 3: It never works that way with Trump. It has never.

452
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 3: It has never been that way with Trump. Once you

453
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 3: humiliate yourself to him, he hates you more.

454
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: It is interesting, though, that it doesn't work. I had

455
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: been really worried about Elon's seemingly endless financial You know,

456
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: I had been worried about right Elon Musk piggybank forever

457
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: the richest man in the world. That seemed like a

458
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: very you know, a sort of disaster scenario. But it

459
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: seems like he's just not going to give any more money.

460
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: There have been two separate interviews that I've seen, there

461
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: may be more, the two where he has basically said,

462
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 3: I've spent what I'm going to spend, I've done what

463
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to do. I think he is probably extremely

464
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 3: bitter right now. If you can't spend three hundred and

465
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 3: fifty million dollars and keep Donald Trump on your side,

466
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 3: there aren't many people that can have that kind of

467
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: liquid cash in the universe, right And so if that's

468
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 3: not enough to keep Trump as an ally, what what

469
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 3: would be?

470
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: What do you think about that? I mean, what do

471
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: you think about is he gone? Will he no longer donate?

472
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: And also, I mean, like, do you feel better about

473
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: that now? I mean, he certainly seems like he's not.

474
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 3: There were a lot of major Democratic donors that I've

475
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 3: sat with over the last year, well six months, let's

476
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 3: call it just since the election, who are like, no

477
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 3: matter what, we do. We can't rival Elon. He's gonna

478
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 3: go nucas everywhere. And now if I put ten million

479
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 3: dollars into this, he'll put twenty or fifty or one hundred.

480
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: And I think Elon is off the board now in

481
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 3: a meaningful way. And that meaningful way is this understanding

482
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 3: that Tesla is a doomed brand, right fucked? Tesla is

483
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 3: fa fucked?

484
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: Right? Well, they were down seventy one percent in the

485
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: last call, which seems like a lot to me if

486
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: I'm not a mask. Yeah, it's a real number, seventy

487
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: one per And the.

488
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 3: Way the way I got banned from Twitter was basically

489
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 3: outlining that story. They reacted to the head line. But

490
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 3: what I said was if you kill their stock price,

491
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 3: Elon can't play these games anymore. Well, their stock prices

492
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 3: and the shitter. It's up a little bit now that

493
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: he's out of the White House, but he has this

494
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 3: interlocking set of companies he has to maintain. Tesla has

495
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 3: to do well so he can fund SpaceX. SpaceX has

496
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 3: to do well so he can expand Starlink, and which

497
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 3: is a which is actually his best business in a

498
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 3: lot of ways, non controversial, not politically facing, works great.

499
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 3: You know, it's a good product, whereas Tesla's product is

500
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: old and stale and now has a bad brand. SpaceX.

501
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: As much as I want it to work out, I

502
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: think we need good rockets. It hasn't been a straight

503
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: line from A to B to get them into into

504
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 3: orbit right now. And if she focuses his admittedly formidable

505
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 3: intellect on some of these things for a year or

506
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 3: two years, he might turn back into the guy, the

507
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 3: lovable elon, the nerd who could match things. He got

508
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: addicted to politics.

509
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't I actually think that that

510
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: chip has sailed. I think they may have. Even if

511
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: he can, in fact pretend to be that person, I

512
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: don't think it matters. I think that he killed the

513
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: poorest children in the world. Yeah, I believe me. Yeah.

514
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: And I had somebody from Marco World reach out to

515
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 3: me today because I tweeted about the death. I was like,

516
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: proud of yourself, Marco, what's a Marco guy? Reached out

517
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 3: and he goes, how dare you take that tone with him?

518
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 3: He didn't do that? Did that? I'm like, no, he's

519
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 3: pretty good with it though he pulled the trigger.

520
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: But I'm curious, like how do you defend that.

521
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 3: You can't defend it. Look, we we're gonna kill three

522
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 3: hundred thousand people this year alone, from what the numbers

523
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: that I've seen. Three hundred thousand people, Molly are going

524
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 3: to die because of food and the food that it's

525
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 3: going into those countries now, on those bags of rice

526
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: and lintels and.

527
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: Soybas it says Russia.

528
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 3: You know it's in Mandarin. And you've given up not

529
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 3: only the moral high ground, but we've given up. We've

530
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 3: given up political power in those places where the AID

531
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 3: made a difference. We've given up moral power. And Ewon

532
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: did it because he was pissed off because he thought

533
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 3: USAID helped end a part time which it did. Oh well.

534
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: Antonia Hilton is the co host of the Weekend on

535
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: AMASNBC and a producer of the new NBC News digital

536
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: doc Children's Pastor. Welcome to Fast Politics, Antonio.

537
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 4: Hilton, thanks for having me, Mollie.

538
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: Delighted to have you so talk to us about this documentary.

539
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: How you got here, why you decided to do it.

540
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, we have been working on this for six months, Mollie.

541
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 4: This is a story about an influential pastor who's now

542
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 4: based in Missouri, but who has traveled from state to

543
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 4: state in his career, and as he's moved around, he

544
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 4: has been dogged by, but never really held accountable for

545
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 4: decades worth of allegations, mostly from women, although NBC News

546
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 4: has spoken to men as well, and the women alleged

547
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 4: that he raped and sexually abused them as children as

548
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 4: part of an influential and very popular children's ministry that

549
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 4: he and his wife, Becky Campbell formed in the eighties.

550
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: And the through.

551
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: Line of this or the purpose of telling this story

552
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 4: now is, first, this man is still out there. Pastor

553
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 4: Joe Campbell is part of you remember infamous, disgraced televangelist

554
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 4: Jim Baker.

555
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: Oh yes, very wow.

556
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 4: So he is a member of Jim Baker's televangelist ministry

557
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 4: in Missouri and he still runs a camp for children

558
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 4: in the Ozarks to this day.

559
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

560
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 4: And so the women that we've spoken to, they have

561
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 4: been motivated over the decades to continue to try to

562
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 4: tell their stories to friends, to family, clergy members, to

563
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 4: law enforcement, often hitting one road block or you know,

564
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 4: person who wanted to discredit or not believe them after another,

565
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 4: but their real motivation has been the fear that there

566
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 4: are more people out there like them who have potentially

567
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 4: been harmed by this person. And for us at NBC

568
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 4: and MSNBC, this is kind of exactly the sort of

569
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 4: impact and community based reporting that we try to do,

570
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 4: you know, whenever you cover a major religious organization. He

571
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 4: was a part of the Assemblies of God, which is

572
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 4: the largest Pentecostal denomination, incredibly influential denomination here in the US.

573
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 4: You know, there are the political elements, of course, the power,

574
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 4: the gender dynamics to it, but there's also simply just

575
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 4: the opportunity as reporters to do the right thing and

576
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 4: to give a platform a voice to people who have

577
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 4: been harmed by or potentially armed by very powerful people

578
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 4: for quite a long time, and to bring them back

579
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 4: into the frame, to make the people the real human

580
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 4: beings at the center of the story kind of you know,

581
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 4: off didn't become statistics or just sort of the avatars

582
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 4: of our day to day political conversations. Make them the

583
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 4: heart of something. And so that's what this investigation for

584
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 4: our team was really about. And I was really honored

585
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 4: to get to do this with my good friend and

586
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 4: senior investigative reporter here, Mike Kick, Simba, Roberto Daza, and

587
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 4: so many others in this building. You know, it's the

588
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 4: kind of work, Molly that just reminds me why I

589
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 4: grew up wanting to do this in the first place

590
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 4: for so long, and why priests like this are so special.

591
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: So what has happened since the movie? Like I mean,

592
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: is there a chance for accountability here?

593
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 4: I think there's a chance for accountability here. NBC News

594
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 4: has made exhaustive and extensive efforts to reach Pastor Joe Campbell,

595
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 4: to reach his wife Becky, and to reach Jim Baker,

596
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 4: the televangelist with whom he works now. We called him,

597
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 4: texted him and he had his read receipts on we emailed.

598
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 4: Then I made in person visits to the campgrounds this

599
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 4: is the camp that he's still runs for kids in

600
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 4: the Ozarks in Missouri, and then to the compound the

601
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 4: Jim Baker runs where the Campbell's often live. I spoke

602
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 4: to staff at that site, I handed hand to hand

603
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,479
Speaker 4: delivered a letter with the allegations with an invitation to talk,

604
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 4: to sit down, to record an interview, or even just

605
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 4: discuss over the phone. And I did the same when

606
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 4: I visited the campsite. I left a note for the

607
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 4: family there. We have never, at least as of this recording,

608
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 4: we have not heard from Pastor Joe Campbell, from any

609
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 4: members of his family, or from Jim Baker's ministry to

610
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 4: respond to any of these allegations at all. Molly, I've

611
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 4: been on air all week telling our viewers if you

612
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 4: have a story about Pastor Joe Campbell, if you have

613
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 4: feedback for us, a detail you think we're missing, reach

614
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 4: out because we're going to continue reporting this story out.

615
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 4: We know that law enforcement and in states like Oklahoma and

616
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 4: Missouri where Pastor Campbell operated, that there are law enforcement

617
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 4: that are already in some cases aware of him or

618
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 4: are certainly now aware of our So there's opportunity there,

619
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 4: But there's also the potential for you know, like I said,

620
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 4: he's running a camp for kids exists in the ozarks,

621
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 4: So we want to hear from people. If you have

622
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 4: a child who has attended that camp and you need

623
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 4: to speak to us, the door is very open, the dms,

624
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 4: the emails are open, and that's where I think the

625
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 4: impact comes from.

626
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: But he's still there. Yeah, yeah, how does that work?

627
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: I mean, why are people sending their kids there.

628
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 4: You know, that's one of the most interesting challenges or

629
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 4: questions I guess as reporters that you kind of meditate

630
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 4: on when you're working on a project like this. Right,

631
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 4: everyone wants to think, like, if I heard this powerful

632
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 4: person that I had befriended or trusted as my pastor,

633
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 4: if I heard they even just the rumor that they

634
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 4: may be harmed a child in this way, most people

635
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 4: would say, I like to think I would call the police,

636
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 4: I'd run the other direction, I'd take my kids out,

637
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 4: or at.

638
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: The very least, I wouldn't send my kids there.

639
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 4: Right, That's the question, certainly the question that at times

640
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 4: we've asked people through the course of our reporting. But

641
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 4: this pastor, Joe Campbell, was incredibly charismatic, beloved by people

642
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 4: in the ministries that he's been a part of, and

643
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 4: you know, in many cases, what we found, really a

644
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 4: pattern that emerged in our reporting was that so many

645
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 4: of the they're now women, but when they were just

646
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 4: young girls that he's alleged to have done all this too.

647
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 4: They came from very similar backgrounds and families isolated as

648
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 4: children often maybe parent or parents missing from the home,

649
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 4: dealing with a lot of poverty in states like Oklahoma

650
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 4: or Missouri and depending on the resources of the church,

651
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 4: which is so common throughout the United States, by the way,

652
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 4: across all denominations, but certainly Pentecostal and Evangelical denominations playing

653
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 4: these immense cultural and political roles in their local communities,

654
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 4: distributing aid and food, being a place where kids can

655
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 4: consistently come after school to get a warm meal and

656
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 4: to hang out with people who are supposed to protect

657
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 4: and guide them. And so kids who up in that

658
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 4: position where they're dependent on this ministry, it makes it

659
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 4: really challenging from what they've told us to then come

660
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 4: forward and tell people, oh, the man you love, the

661
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 4: man you depend on sometimes for events, support, trips out

662
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 4: of states, opportunities, he's been harming me in this way.

663
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 4: And for the women that did try to Carrie Jackson

664
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 4: is one. She alleges that he raped and sexually abused

665
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 4: her from the ages of nine to twelve. When she

666
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 4: came forward, she was brought into a hearing run by

667
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 4: a regional office of the Assemblies of God and questioned

668
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 4: aggressively by grown men astors in the church. At times,

669
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 4: Joe Campbell himself present watching her getting interrogated, asked to

670
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 4: do things like describe his naked body. This is a child,

671
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 4: and so there's this sort of gut reaction to discredit

672
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 4: children women's voices often. And two, it appears from the reporting,

673
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 4: maintain the status quo, sort of continue to believe what

674
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 4: you might want to believe about the person that has

675
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 4: built your community up and who so many depend on.

676
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 4: And even after, you know, shortly after Carrie Jackson's allegations,

677
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 4: then another woman named Fadrir Creed, or a girl named

678
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 4: Fader Creed, accuses him. She's brought in essentially as a

679
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 4: foster child into his family in Missouri, and within a

680
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 4: month of her living there, she alleges he began to

681
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 4: sexually abuse her. There was so much evidence that her

682
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 4: case moved to trial, but because she was a child

683
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 4: and struggled to deal with the pressure, the trauma, and

684
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 4: the criticism from her community and her congregants, she ended

685
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: up not being able to testify and charges were dropped.

686
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: But you know, you just you see.

687
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 4: Time time again how people want to not feel uncomfortable

688
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 4: and not some of the facts in front of them

689
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 4: in order to keep their community, their ministry and maybe

690
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 4: even their psyche intact.

691
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: It sounds as if there's a certain amount of intimidation

692
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: going on. As that fair.

693
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 4: I think absolutely the women we've spoken to would tell

694
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 4: you that that's the case. Phaedr. Creed, the woman who

695
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 4: he allegedly abused in Missouri, talks about how people would

696
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 4: follow her in grocery stores, come to her home harassment.

697
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: She wanted it.

698
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 4: She was a harlot essentially, and then it actually persisted

699
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 4: for years even after charges were dismissed, and you know,

700
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 4: she tried to move on with her life and you

701
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 4: know certainly wasn't speaking about it regularly. You know, she

702
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 4: was trying to build her own life and family. She

703
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 4: would still see people who would criticize and attack her,

704
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 4: and so I think they would. They would definitely agree

705
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 4: with you on that, Molly, and I think it tells

706
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 4: you so much too. I think just about the kind

707
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 4: of culture around power, gender and politics in this country

708
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 4: that it takes like an entire army of women to

709
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 4: come forward with the same patterns and clues photographs. I mean, Carrie,

710
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 4: the woman I mentioned in Tulsa, Oklahoma, has childhood diary

711
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 4: entries recounting her memory the contemporaneous notes, photographs of Joe

712
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 4: and his wife and family, and the need to have

713
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 4: like this tsunami of evidence to even have a chance

714
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 4: at being believed. Yeah, it's astounding, but I think there's

715
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 4: a reason that pattern repeats in our country, whether you're

716
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 4: talking about these religious cases of abuse like this one,

717
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 4: or you're talking about like the Diddy trial, which we're

718
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 4: all watching unfold.

719
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Diddy trial is a great example of that,

720
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: because that is a situation too where the woman who

721
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: is testifying talk to us about that, because that's a

722
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: similar scenario.

723
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

724
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 4: I have been following my friends here at NBCNMSNBC all

725
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 4: there reporting from the courtroom, and I think there's sort

726
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 4: of two sides of this story that have emerged. And

727
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 4: I think in a lot of cases, the media, and

728
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 4: I mean that very broadly, like news organizations, gossip organizations,

729
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 4: social media sites like Instagram, accounts like the Shade Room,

730
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 4: so big picture media. There's a lot of attention on

731
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 4: the salacious details, the drugs that were used, the lubricants

732
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 4: and baby oils, the freak offs, and I don't see

733
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 4: a lot of people very publicly at least engaging in

734
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 4: what I think the real story is, which is a

735
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 4: story about race, power and gender, about how hard it

736
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 4: is when someone is an icon in a specific community

737
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 4: who has achieved things many people in that community thought

738
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 4: were simply impossible. I mean, this is sort of a

739
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 4: cosbisque story, right, where this person has done the impossible,

740
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 4: innovated in this in his field, and created careers and

741
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 4: lives for so many people, or just simply bands have

742
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 4: a certain emotional attachment to them and their music. And

743
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 4: then this alternative story and video, right because of the

744
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 4: infamous twenty sixteen hotel video we've now all seen of

745
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 4: how did he was physically abusing Cassie at that time,

746
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 4: It's hard for people to make sense of that, and

747
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 4: so it seems like they then want to focus instead

748
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 4: of having the conversation about what it says about all

749
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 4: of us that we allowed someone like this to perhaps

750
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 4: operate in our myths, that we celebrated, that we gave

751
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 4: them money, that we elevated them, that they had access

752
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 4: to people in the cultural and political spheres all over

753
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 4: our country and world, instead of kind of interrogating what

754
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 4: that says about all of us, that instead we want

755
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 4: to focus on the grimiest and most salacious parts of

756
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 4: the story, and you see the same patterns of people saying, well, Cassie,

757
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 4: it was a techar relationship, she must have liked it.

758
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 4: Why did she stick around the same kinds of questions

759
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 4: that the women I spoke to in communities in Oklahoma

760
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 4: and Missouri and now in Tennessee they were asked the

761
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 4: same questions back in the seventies, eighties and beyond that

762
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 4: now are being asked of Cassie. And there's something so

763
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 4: disturbing to me about that we repeat the same mistakes,

764
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 4: we have the same conversations over again, and then perhaps

765
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 4: we don't learn anything new.

766
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I also just wonder, like the whole theory

767
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: of the case with Ditty, from what I understand and again,

768
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: is just that somehow their relationship negates these the volatile

769
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: nature of their relationship, somehow undermines these allegations, which in

770
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: my mind is just a non starter. Right, you can

771
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: have crazy relationships and still do bad stuff. Like the

772
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,959
Speaker 1: idea that one thing can be true ergo nothing else

773
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: is true seems wild to me.

774
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I spent a lot of time talking

775
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 4: to mental health practitioners and doctors as part of another

776
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 4: side of my reporting, which I have covered a lot

777
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 4: of the history of mental health treatment in the US,

778
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 4: and basically every expert in that field describes cases like

779
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 4: Cassie's is actually really familiar to them, like textbook kind

780
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 4: of familiar, where you know, there's a grooming process, someone

781
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 4: testing boundaries, and there is the confusion about like love

782
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 4: and dependence and codependence. And I think people think once

783
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 4: she says something like well I loved him that, then

784
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 4: that means she totally signed up for and understood, you know,

785
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 4: what this relationship was, and therefore you know she needs

786
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 4: to be held accountable for that. You know, very often

787
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 4: victims of all kinds of abuse actually have a lot

788
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 4: of love and affection and empathy and attachment to the

789
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 4: people who've inflicted and enacted that upon them. It's not abnormal,

790
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 4: that's not the outlier. That is the norm. And so

791
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 4: I know that there are a lot of journalists hoping

792
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 4: because the other dimension of this case, right is a

793
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 4: lot of people saying, well, like, maybe this is just

794
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 4: domestic violence and there's not the whole reco case that

795
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 4: the federal government is supposed to be making here right now.

796
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: Well, I think.

797
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 4: Key to that to a lot of people would be, well,

798
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,479
Speaker 4: you're gonna have to bring in experts who make that

799
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 4: make all of this make sense for people. You know,

800
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 4: I don't think the average person can be expected to

801
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 4: understand the way that PTSG and trauma function. And that's okay,

802
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 4: So how do you demonstrate that? How do you make

803
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 4: sure people are having responsible conversations about that? And then

804
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 4: the question for us is like, well, how do we

805
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 4: cover it and what kinds of voices do we bring

806
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 4: on air so that it's not oh, again, all the

807
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 4: attention on there was a freak off that lasted four days.

808
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 4: I've heard that a million times this week.

809
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: Right, are you surprised at how much me too has

810
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 1: sort of we went from no me too to you

811
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: know a lot of looking at men's behavior. There's been

812
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: so much backlash to backlash to backlash, and now we're

813
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: in another cycle of backlash where if you loved the person,

814
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 1: they couldn't have done anything bad to you, which is like,

815
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: we all know that's insane. So are you surprised at

816
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: how much the culture has sort of dictated what is

817
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: a crime and what is not a crime. Because eighteen

818
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 1: months ago you pinched someone's butt, and you could lose

819
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: your job. And now we have people who are running

820
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 1: orgies and god knows what else being said that it's

821
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: okay because they loved the person, right.

822
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 4: I wish I could tell you, Molly that I'm that

823
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 4: I'm surprised, but I remember, so, you know, a lot

824
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 4: of my job at MSNBC the last three to five

825
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 4: years has been covering the culture war in schools, book banning,

826
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 4: the anti CRT movement anti and I remember while covering

827
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 4: the George Floyd protests, like literally leaving protests in downtown

828
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 4: Brooklyn and calling my mom and talking to her. And

829
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,439
Speaker 4: my mom is a lawyer and a professor, and she's

830
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 4: the daughter of two civil rights activists, and I remember

831
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 4: her saying to me, there will be a backlash to this.

832
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 4: You know, this moment where you know people are asking

833
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 4: these questions and they're you know, buying black authors books and.

834
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 1: They're right right elevating.

835
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: You just know there's going to be a moment where

836
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 4: they get real tired of doing that and the pendulum

837
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 4: swing back in the other direction. I remember being, oh yeah,

838
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 4: and she was like that because that's what history tells us,

839
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 4: so now we're living it, and that applies to everything

840
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 4: from like the almost four hundred books banned from the

841
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 4: Naval Academy a couple to the conversation the transpiring now

842
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 4: around the Diddy trial. I see all of that as connected,

843
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 4: and so in some ways it's not a surprise at all.

844
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 4: But I do sometimes think that all of us, like

845
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 4: we get overwhelmed and we forget to connect the dots

846
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 4: for people about like where we are in the stage

847
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 4: of the backlash and what specifically some of these like

848
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 4: movements and counter movements are truly about, and using plain

849
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 4: language to really describe it. I like constantly like reevaluate

850
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 4: for myself, like before I'm doing a ninety second hit

851
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 4: on a MSNBC or I'm working on a long term

852
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 4: investigation like this one with a ton of colleagues on

853
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 4: this specific you know pastor in this church. How do

854
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 4: I use my language really careful and effectively. How do

855
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 4: I think about my responsibility to the people that I'm

856
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 4: reporting on, And how do I use every opportunity every

857
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 4: new story I do to obviously tell the truest and

858
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,439
Speaker 4: most direct and effective story I can, but also use

859
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 4: it in a way to like repair relationships and bring

860
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 4: more clarity to the communities that I visit and I

861
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 4: drop into. I think too often, like a lot of

862
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 4: that just kind of falls to the side and the

863
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 4: daily like rush and panic and hair on fire stuff.

864
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 4: But like, I really try to catch myself to be

865
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 4: better about that. And for me, it really began with

866
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 4: that phone call with my mom when I was saving

867
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 4: a George Floyd postest, which she was like, you're like,

868
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 4: right now, you're on you think you're like a hot moment,

869
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,439
Speaker 4: but you're actually like part of a very long timeline here,

870
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 4: and keep track of where you are and make sense

871
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 4: of that for the people you're talking to too.

872
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that is the big question, is

873
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: sort of how do we protect vulnerable people? Right because

874
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: for us whatever, But for these women and for these victims,

875
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 1: that's another story. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm

876
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: such a fan of yours.

877
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 4: Interviewers, Molly, thank you for having me really great.

878
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: Thank you.

879
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 3: No, no moment.

880
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 1: Fuck Rick Wilson. Can we talk about your moment of

881
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: fuck ray?

882
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 3: I think we could talk about my moment of fuckery.

883
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 3: My moment of fuckery was the reaction on Sunday morning

884
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 3: by a lot of magas to this absolutely fucking genius,

885
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 3: top secret, brilliant plan that Ukraine pulled off where they

886
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 3: shipped attack drones all over Russia hidden in semi trucks

887
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 3: and took out about forty percent of Russia's air force

888
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 3: today bomber air force, the bombers that were striking Ukraine

889
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 3: every single night and killing civilians. And the reaction by

890
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 3: MAGA was, how dare they not inform Donald Trump in advance?

891
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 3: How dare they escalate this conflict like this? I'm like,

892
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 3: fuck off. Two and a half years of Russia Nuki

893
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 3: are not nuking but but bombing the shit out of

894
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 3: civilian targets in Ukraine, and the Ukrainians strike back with

895
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 3: this brilliant plan. It took them a year and a

896
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 3: half to hatch it. Nobody in trumperl can keep a

897
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 3: secret for an hour and a half, much less a

898
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 3: year and a half. So I'm glad they didn't tell

899
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 3: Trump's people. But the modern reaction to it has been

900
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 3: amazing to me. It's like, oh, I'm sorry, poor Russia,

901
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 3: They're the victim in this. Poor Donald Trump's the victim

902
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 3: in it.

903
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: Uh sure, thank you, Rick Wilson.

904
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 3: As always, I will talk to you again. Soon.

905
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

906
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best

907
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

908
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

909
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.