1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westaurant. Today we are 2 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: bringing you the second episode in a mini series we 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: started last week called The Black Thread, about Norway's complicated 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: relationship with its identity as both a progressive leader and 5 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: an oil state. 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: This episode zooms in on a problem we've talked about 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: a lot on Drilled, what we call petrogda. This is 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: a word that I came up with a few years 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 2: ago to describe the fossil fuel industry's strategic, deliberate effort 10 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: to sabotage climate action and to warp the information out 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: there about both climate change and the possible solutions to it. 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: This episode zooms in on what that looks like in Norway. 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: This is Black Thread Episode two, Petroganda. 14 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 3: Welcome back to The Black Thread, a podcast unraveling Norway's 15 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 3: complex relationship with prosperity, identity, and responsibility in a warming world. 16 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 3: I'm Dickon, a climate communications expert based in Oslo, the 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 3: Norwegian capital, tracing the Black Thread, oil through Norway's culture 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 3: and society. Last time, we heard how oil is more 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 3: than just an industry in Norway. It's a cornerstone of identity, 20 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 3: pride and culture. Woven deeply into the nation's story. We 21 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 3: learned how this connection shapes the way Norwegians understand themselves 22 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 3: and the world around them, creating a tension between climate 23 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 3: awareness and their nature loving identity on the one hand, 24 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 3: and the nation's ongoing embrace of fossil fuels on the other. 25 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 3: But that's only part of the story. A growing number 26 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 3: of experts and commentators suggest that behind the scenes, a 27 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 3: strategic effort to shape support for Norway's oil industry is 28 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 3: at work, influencing culture, policies and even the informationation the 29 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 3: public receives or doesn't receive about the relationship between oil 30 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: and climate change. In this episode, we'll explore these perspectives, 31 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 3: hearing from those who study and observe the industry, as 32 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 3: well as those working within it, about how the story 33 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 3: of oil in Norway is told and who is shaping it. 34 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: So let's get into it, starting with some insight into 35 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 3: the idea that oil interests are strategically targeting Norwegians with 36 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 3: messaging intended to prolong the acceptability of continued fossil fuel extraction. 37 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 3: Julia for Chammer is co founder of Klima Culture, a 38 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 3: Norwegian nonprofit focused on building knowledge and community around climate, 39 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 3: nature and justice. Julia uses the word petrogander to describe 40 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 3: the pervasive phenomenon of oil industry manipulation that she observes 41 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 3: in Norway. I asked if she could explain the term. 42 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 4: I guess the observant listener will understand that petroganda comes 43 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 4: from the word propaganda, which is like a one sided 44 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 4: ideological advertise spread over a longer period of time, the 45 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 4: purpose of which is to influence people and their attitudes 46 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 4: and get them to do certain stuff. 47 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 5: And petroganda is the same thing, but. 48 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 4: With the fossil fuel industry as the center, and how 49 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 4: petuganda is deliberately manipulating people's thoughts, emotions, how they think 50 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 4: about things, and especially how people think about energy, climate, 51 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 4: the climate crisis. 52 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 5: And potential solutions. 53 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 4: Petroganda is a perfect word for Norway, especially because so 54 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 4: much of the oil industry in Norway is state owned 55 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 4: and so much of their advertising and pr and lobbying 56 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 4: is aimed at very young children, both in schools, kindergartens, museums, sports, etc. 57 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 5: So that's why we use the word petroganda. 58 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: So, according to Julia, petri ganda is the fossil fuel 59 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 3: industry's tallkit of public relations and strategic communication, all designed 60 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 3: to shape how people see the industry and protect its interests, 61 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 3: especially when it comes to climate change. Amy Westervelt from 62 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: Drilled Media, who has been investigating this topic for over 63 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: a decade, breaks petroganda down into five key narratives. Number one, 64 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 3: energy security, the idea that the industry keeps us safe. 65 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 3: Two the economy versus the environment, where typically we have 66 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 3: to choose one or the other. Three emphasizing how essential 67 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 3: oil is to daily life that we basically can't live 68 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 3: without it. Four presenting the industry as part of the 69 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 3: solution to the green transition. And five positioning oil companies 70 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 3: as generous community benefactors. From my experience, once you're aware 71 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 3: of these narratives, they tend to show up everywhere. And 72 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: in this episode we'll hear how each of them plays out. 73 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 3: In Norway, let's hear from Yulia four Chammer again, who 74 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: shares how she sees oil industry influence playing out in 75 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 3: plain sight. 76 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 5: I'll give you a very current example for what is 77 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 5: happening right now, and that's in the Noaslas, Norway. 78 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 4: We have one of the biggest bike races globally it's 79 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 4: called the Arctic Race of Norway. 80 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 5: Equinor is the main sponsor. 81 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 4: Lots of the teams are also sponsored by oil companies, 82 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 4: and today we see our Prime Minister, Unus Costev is there. 83 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,119 Speaker 4: You've got Anna Sulberg, who's the Conservatives leader, is there 84 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 4: as well, so you've got politics, you've got oil. 85 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 5: We call it a. 86 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 4: Folkeyfist in Norwegian, which means people's party, a fiesta of 87 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 4: all the people living there, so it's everyone involved in it, 88 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 4: and probably all the news stories around this is how 89 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 4: much fun it is with this Arctic Race. So that's 90 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 4: petroganda in action today. 91 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 3: Julia shares the common picture whereby oil interests, politics and 92 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 3: local engagement are intertwined with one another, and the way 93 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: that local and national news outlets typically describe such scenes 94 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: as exclusively positive and removed from the underlying context of 95 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 3: climate change. As a result, she explains the fossil fuel 96 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 3: company logos that line the sides of the racetrack, or 97 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 3: which adorn the outfits of the competitors, and even the 98 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: Equinor branded T shirts being worn by children watching the 99 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 3: event or taking part in adjacent activities. They're all casually 100 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 3: accepted as part and parcel of another fun packed day 101 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 3: courtesy of the oil industry. Reflecting on Drilled media's petroganda narratives, 102 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: this all sounds like number five, the fossil fuel industry 103 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 3: being a generous community benefactor, a so called great neighbour, 104 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: funding valuable activities for communities all over Norway. But according 105 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 3: to Julia, what we're seeing here is more than just 106 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: sponsorship or community involvement. Its deliberate strategic embedding of oil 107 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: companies into everyday life, into culture, and even into childhood experiences. 108 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 3: In this way, Julia contends that Equinor, the Norwegian state 109 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 3: owned oil giant, and its peers, they aren't just funding events. 110 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 3: She argues that through these kinds of sponsorships, they're shaping 111 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 3: the national story, building goodwill and helping to normalize their 112 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 3: presence as a natural and positive part of Norwegian society. 113 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 3: As we discussed in the previous episode, there's a sense 114 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: that none of these benefits, opportunities or activities filling the 115 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 3: social calendar would be possible without the financial backing of 116 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 3: the oil industry. So Norwegians may conclude that to put 117 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 3: climate and the environment first at the cost of the 118 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: growth of the oil industry may mean losing out on 119 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 3: all these incredible goods for them and their children. This 120 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 3: raises two more of drilled Media's core Petrigander narratives, namely 121 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 3: number three oil being essential to daily life and number 122 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 3: two having to choose between the economy and the environment. 123 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 3: Yuliat explained that this kind of sponsorship is totally normalized 124 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 3: in Norway. Indeed, during the interviews for this series, I 125 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: heard long lists of examples of oil industry advertising and outreach, 126 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: from exciting animated ads aired on national television, to big, 127 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 3: bold campaigns in national newspapers and more, but uly emphasize 128 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: the extent to which the fossil fuel industry actively engages children, describing, 129 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 3: for example, a coding camp for young girls sponsored by 130 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 3: Equinor taking place at science centers located all across the country, 131 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 3: where participants where Equinor branded apparel and are exposed to 132 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 3: what she considers to be deceptive narratives. Another example was 133 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 3: a popular competition for budding technologists. 134 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 4: I've seen the videos from these competitions, and very often 135 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 4: its school classes. They go to the science centers, the 136 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 4: rooms are branded equinor logos. There's loud music, there's pirros, 137 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 4: and you see hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of kids 138 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 4: in Equinor T shirts having so much fun. I also 139 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 4: seen the photocontracts the parents has to sign for their 140 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 4: children who's participating in this, and the photocontract says the 141 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 4: sponsors of this competition has the rights to use image 142 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 4: of your child for basically areas. So what you also 143 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 4: see online is so many children branding Equinor smiling talking 144 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 4: about how fun it was at this event, how many 145 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 4: new friends they had, and so it's very, very powerful marketing. 146 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 3: Julia also described an ongoing programming course aimed at school 147 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 3: classes visiting the Norwegian science centers hosted in Equinor sponsored 148 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 3: coding rooms. 149 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 5: Quite a few of. 150 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 4: The Norwegian science centers has an Equinor coding room and 151 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 4: they are designed really fancy and it's supposed to be 152 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 4: Norway as cool as classroom. There's a lot of marketing 153 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 4: for the Equinor slogan Tomorrow's heroes. The children are programming 154 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 4: a computer game and the premise for the game is 155 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 4: you are an energy Minister of Norway and you need 156 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 4: more energy because it's always the energy crisis is never 157 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 4: the climate crisis. The children also learn that they have 158 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 4: to program border controls because people from poorer countries will 159 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 4: come to your country and to steal your resources. Half 160 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 4: of Norwegian middle schools have taken this course. I think 161 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 4: it's such a clear example of how it's just in 162 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 4: grade in the school system, through the science centers, but 163 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 4: also through the Directorate for Education in Norway because equinor 164 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 4: and the government is often co sponsoring these kinds of events. 165 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 4: So how should a school teacher or parents be skeptic 166 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 4: when these things come through the schools and it comes 167 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 4: through very very credible actors in Norwegian society. 168 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: According to Julia Petri, Gander and its narratives are so 169 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 3: embedded in Norway that government ministries and directorates are often 170 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 3: complicit in amplifying them. Meanwhile, in Stavanga on the west coast, 171 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: a place you may remember from the previous episode, has 172 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 3: a deep connection to the offshore industry. There's even a 173 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: petroleum museum, funded by a combination of the government, the 174 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 3: local administration, and the fossil fuel industry. It was opened 175 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 3: by the King of Norway in an official ceremony in 176 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine. Some friends of mine recently shared that 177 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 3: during their upbringings in Stavanga, they were taken on multiple 178 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: class trips to the Petroleum Museum. It's known for having 179 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 3: a huge, colorful climbing frame designed to look like an oil. 180 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 5: Rig, so much fun for the kids. 181 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 3: To hammer her point home, Julia handed me a pastel 182 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 3: pink children's T shirt emblazoned with a big Equinor logo, 183 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 3: explaining that children participating in oil sponsored community events can 184 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: be as young as two years old. Not unlike the 185 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: oil industry info boards I described in the previous episode 186 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 3: loud and proud about their work, these kinds of objects 187 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 3: and the conduct that they're associated with can be seen 188 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 3: as baffling or even perverse by many. The concern is 189 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 3: clear that these are the very children who will inherit 190 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 3: a world shaped by climate change, yet they're being targeted 191 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 3: by an industry that is knowingly contributing to the detriment 192 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 3: of that future. It raises difficult questions about influence, education 193 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 3: and the messages that children are being exposed to. But 194 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 3: what do the oil companies themselves have to say about 195 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 3: this kind of public engagement? What do they provide as 196 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 3: the underlying rationale behind these actions. To learn more about 197 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 3: the issue and hoping to find some answers to these questions, 198 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 3: I reached out to Equinor, who kindly invited me to 199 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 3: their offices in Oslo to speak to their executive vice 200 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 3: president for Communications, Janick Lindback. I asked Yanik about the scope, scale, 201 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 3: and intent behind Equinor's activities in this area. 202 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 6: Historically, I think Stattoile and later Equinor has had the 203 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 6: ambition of supporting culture, sports science to an increasing extent, 204 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 6: also education research. And the reason for that is really 205 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 6: partly because there is an expectation for us to contribute, 206 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 6: but also because we want to stimulate and to be 207 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 6: a positive contributor to the area's movie sponsor. We've had 208 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 6: over a number of years talent programs within football and 209 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 6: also within cross country skiing, because these are two really 210 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 6: highly regarded sports in Norway, close to our national identity. 211 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 6: We've been sponsoring technology camps and competitions, and we've been 212 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 6: sponsoring startup labs. There's a lot of sponsorships that is 213 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 6: related to what we do as a company to position 214 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 6: ourselves also in the labor markets, because we need to 215 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 6: attract talent in due time that can come to the 216 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 6: industry and to Equinor to work with the challenges that 217 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 6: we have in developing our portfolio of energy resources. So 218 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 6: it's about stimulating interest and what it takes to be 219 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 6: an energy company and how people is the most critical 220 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 6: imput factor in developing the company and what they can 221 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 6: bring by seeking education, entering into research and so on, 222 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 6: and we believe that that is equally important for the 223 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 6: future in order to take us through the transition that 224 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 6: we need. We see it as the best way we 225 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 6: can use our sponsorships and where we both position the 226 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 6: company but also then accomplish something more than just attracting 227 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 6: attention to it's also attracting attention to the drivers of 228 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 6: the energy transition. 229 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: Yanik explained that Equinor spends around seventy million Norwegian krona 230 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 3: about seven million dollars each year on these kinds of sponsorships, 231 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 3: and that he believed the company now achieved a one 232 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 3: hundred percent brand awareness in Norway. I asked how the 233 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 3: company justifies this concerted effort to remain top of mind. 234 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 6: We're a commercial company. We're listed on the stock exchange, 235 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 6: so we're supposed to compete for opportunities which means that 236 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 6: we need to position ourselves, and positioning comes with marketing 237 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 6: and sponsorships and using the toolbox to attract attention to 238 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 6: the company and what we represent. 239 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 3: So, according to Yanik, these activities are just a natural 240 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 3: part of being an industrial player in a competitive market, 241 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 3: building the brand, attracting talent, and galvanizing the company's role 242 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 3: as a positive presence in Norwegian society. But through the 243 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 3: kinds of engagements we've discussed, Yulia believes companies like Equinor 244 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 3: achieve much more. She suggests they strengthen their social license, 245 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 3: gain political influence, and develop a soft public image, all 246 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 3: of which could make it easier to defend their core 247 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 3: business and resist calls for rapid change at the same time. 248 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: Beyond the everywhere presence of fossil fuel industry players like 249 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 3: Equinor in Norwegian public life and the positive associations they 250 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 3: enjoy as a result, there's another important piece of the 251 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 3: puzzle for us to consider, and that's the actual information 252 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,119 Speaker 3: that's being ceded through these practices, the storytelling that underpins 253 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 3: the games, the exhibitions and the experiences taking place. As 254 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 3: we heard, Norway's science centers are a common meeting point 255 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 3: for children and oil industry outreach. In fact, Klimacutur has 256 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 3: committed considerable effort to highlighting Norway's science centers as hubs 257 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: of so called petroganda. Yulia describes the deception that she 258 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: and her team perceive in the way these institutions communicate. 259 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 4: In Norway, we have thirteen science centers for children, twelve 260 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 4: of them corporate and are sponsored by Equinora. But what 261 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 4: is typical for a science center is what is not there, 262 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 4: the information that is lacking, Because in all the science 263 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 4: centers I've been to, there's huge climate and environment exhibitions, 264 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 4: but there's never any information about fossil fuels. 265 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 3: Despite the presence of large climate, environment and nature displays. 266 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 3: Julia explained to me how the role of fossil fuels 267 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 3: tend to be left out entirely, describing installations that instead 268 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: emphasize the individual responsibility we each have to help fight 269 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 3: climate change. For example, fun exhibits about how it's cows 270 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 3: farting and people who are flying or shopping too much 271 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 3: that are the problem. According to Julia and others, these 272 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: kinds of narratives are a strategic shift of the burden 273 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 3: of climate action onto children and their families, and away 274 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 3: from the oil and gas industry, which she emphasizes is 275 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: never discussed for its role in contributing to the crisis. This, 276 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: she claims, reflect a widespread strategy that hides the true 277 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: role of oil and gas in global climate change. From 278 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 3: the classroom to the science museum, the sports field to 279 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 3: the music festival and beyond, oil and gas companies and 280 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 3: their stories about how the world works are an ever 281 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 3: present part of Norwegian public life. 282 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 4: You can have a whole lifetime in the arms of 283 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 4: an oil company, or two or three or four in Norway. 284 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of different things happening, and it's 285 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 4: really really hard to keep track of it because it's 286 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 4: so normalized, and I think people don't really understand how 287 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 4: massive it is. It must be one of the reasons 288 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 4: why so many of us who are talking about it 289 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 4: and working with this issue, so many of us are 290 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 4: not Norwegians. We are not raised in this system. We 291 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 4: don't speak Equi Norwegian as I call it. We don't 292 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 4: accept this playbook. 293 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 3: Perhaps this is the reason Equinor's efforts to target children 294 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 3: abroad have been met with skepticism. This approach is normalized 295 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 3: in Norway, but what might feel routine at home. Educational programs, 296 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 3: games and campaigns aimed at young people has been discussed 297 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 3: elsewhere as being inappropriate or even manipulative. A striking example 298 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 3: comes from the UK. Energy Town, a computer game funded 299 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 3: by Equinor and aimed at children as young as seven, 300 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 3: has sparked a heated public discussion. Critics accused it of 301 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 3: promoting fossil fuels under the guise of education. A since 302 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 3: removed promotional page for energy Town stated that the game 303 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 3: quote aligns with our work to build future talent pipelines 304 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: and secure permission to operate at a time of sensitivity 305 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 3: around fossil fuels end quote. So, by their own admission, 306 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: this isn't education, it's lobbying the next generation to protect 307 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 3: oil industry interests and shape public perception from a young age. Meanwhile, 308 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 3: back in Norway, similar campaigns are thriving and even winning awards. 309 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 3: Yulia believes these activities are having a real impact on 310 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 3: the career choices young people are making, explaining the petroleum 311 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 3: education that the University of Stavanga is experiencing record high applications, 312 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 3: while renewable education programs see falling popularity. Not only is 313 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: Equinor collecting awards for its outreach, though, as we discussed 314 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 3: in the previous episode, it's also winning them for being 315 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 3: an attractive employer. In a post on LinkedIn, one of 316 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 3: Equinor's executives shared how he would stop complaining about gen 317 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 3: Z as it was those aged eighteen to twenty four 318 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: who were rating Equinor highest in the rankings. Could this 319 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 3: be a sign that the oil industry's long standing engagement 320 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 3: with children is beginning to pay off, Yulia and others 321 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 3: believe so. To get some more perspective on how industry 322 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 3: spokespeople think about this kind of public outreach, I sat 323 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 3: down with Ankatharine vorga climate policy manager at Offshore Norway, 324 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 3: the organization that represents companies operating on the Norwegian continental shelf. 325 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 3: When asking about her thoughts on the exposure of children 326 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 3: to fossil fuel narratives, she told me. 327 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 7: Well, there's always a risk for misleading information, and in 328 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 7: of ghoreage, we do our best to avoid that. Of course, 329 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 7: we focus on being constructive and fact based, and we 330 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 7: have a high awareness around our climate communication. So I 331 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 7: think the industry has a particular responsibility for open and 332 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 7: effect based climate communication, and it's important that industry participates 333 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 7: in the public debate. So we definitely need this dialogue 334 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 7: around the climate issues and solutions like we have now. 335 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 7: I think it's important that we have a deep understanding 336 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 7: of the complexity and also an understanding on the history 337 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 7: of the oil and gas production and the current status 338 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 7: for the need in the EU and UK, and by 339 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 7: that we can also set the priorities and the strategies. 340 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 7: So I don't think hiding that we are producing oil 341 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 7: gas is a solution. I think rather we should be 342 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 7: honest on what we do and if we also teach 343 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 7: our children the history and the facts here. So I 344 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 7: don't agree we shouldn't talk about oil and gas, but 345 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 7: we should talk about it in the right way and 346 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 7: also put it in the big picture to have good 347 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 7: conversation on how to achieve the energy transition that we need. 348 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 3: And Catherine's response reflected two for million narratives highlighted by 349 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 3: Drilled Media's research on fossil fuel communications. The first Petrogander narrative, 350 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 3: number one links Norway's oil and gas production to European 351 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 3: energy security, extending the story beyond national borders and positioning 352 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 3: it as a sort of noble pursuit. The other petroganda 353 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: narrative number four, frames fossil fuels as essential to the 354 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 3: energy transition, suggesting continuity rather than replacement. Both are subtle, 355 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 3: yet they shape how the public perceives both the industry's 356 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 3: role and society's capacity to move away from oil and gas. Though, 357 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 3: just like Yannick from Equinor, she emphasizes that the industry 358 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 3: has a responsibility to communicate honestly about its role in 359 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 3: climate change, to participate openly in the public debate, and 360 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: to provide context on the history, current status, and global 361 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 3: relevance of oil and gas. My own visit to a 362 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 3: science center earlier this year in Bergen told a different story. 363 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 3: The exhibits were interactive, immersive, and clearly designed to engage 364 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 3: and inspire, but the underlying narrative was unmissible. One game, 365 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 3: for instance, had players moving illuminated blocks into place to 366 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 3: capture and store emissions from a futuristic looking energy terminal. 367 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 3: In another, visitors explored a virtual world of offshore wind turbines, substations, 368 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 3: and support vessels, while off in the distance stood oil rigs. 369 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 3: The oil was always there, beneath the fun and behind 370 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: the renewables, but it was never centered and never questioned either, 371 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 3: just a constant backdrop to Norwegian life, and certainly never 372 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 3: portrayed accurately with regards to its role in global climate change. 373 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 3: Though discussions, debates and dialogue may be happening, they're taking 374 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 3: place without the full context. This, in essence, is what 375 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 3: Yulia and Klima could Tour are highlighting the subtle, normalized 376 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 3: presence of fossil fuels in everyday experience, the silence around 377 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 3: their role in the climate crisis, and the pressing need 378 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 3: to unpack that. I asked Ianik about Equinor's role in 379 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 3: shaping public perception of climate change in Norway and whether 380 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 3: he believed the company had ever been responsible for misleading 381 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 3: people about the role of fossil fuels in driving the crisis. 382 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 6: I hope that the way we communicate and the way 383 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 6: we use campaigns, and the way we respond to media 384 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 6: and meet audiences and participating conferences and events is true 385 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 6: to the genuine challenges that we face in the energy nanization. 386 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 6: That's what we aim for. We're striving to have a 387 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 6: good balance and to play a constructive role. So I 388 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 6: have always felt that we've been very honest about the dialam. 389 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 6: I've been actively seeking to take part in the discussions 390 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 6: and the debates around us as a company, but also 391 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 6: bringing insight and knowledge into the debates about climate change 392 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 6: and the role that we see for cell fuel play. 393 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 3: During our interview, I shared with the Anak how I 394 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 3: felt that there were some important connections missing from the 395 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 3: information and exhibitions on display at the science center in Bergen. 396 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 3: He seems surprised at my suggestion that the true role 397 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 3: of oil was being hidden. 398 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 6: So we're not a curator at science centers. Where we 399 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 6: are engaged. The ones that we are engaged is really 400 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 6: where it's close to our offices and where we're present, 401 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 6: so that there is an affiliation with our own employees 402 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 6: and the centers, and that makes sense. It's something that 403 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 6: we do really because we believe in the way the 404 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 6: science centers can promote curiosity into energy. We're definitely not 405 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 6: trying to market oil and gas or to portray for 406 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 6: cell of fuels in a favorable way to the country. 407 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 6: I would say we are engaged to promote understanding for 408 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 6: the needs in the energy transition and the role that 409 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 6: we see oil and gas play in that context. The 410 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 6: science centers should absolutely feel free to curate their exhibitions 411 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 6: in the way that they believe is right, and our 412 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 6: support should come as a contribution to that, not something 413 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 6: that leaves them limiting their own choices. And that's not 414 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 6: why we're in it. We're in it really to genuinely 415 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 6: inspire and motivate and create interest and curiosity for what 416 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 6: it will take to develop the new energy sources and 417 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 6: to reduce the presence of cell fuel in the longer term. 418 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 6: So my thinking is that it would be very contraproductive 419 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 6: both for the transition but also for us as a 420 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 6: company if it appears that we're trying to shy away 421 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 6: from the dilemmas that we're a part of. 422 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 3: Had it been the case that we were discussing just 423 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 3: one or two slip ups in the storytelling or a 424 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 3: clumsy infographic that failed to join the dots between oil 425 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 3: and climate, it would be less of a conspicuous topic. 426 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 3: But what Yulia and others are pointing to is a 427 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 3: culture of misrepresentation, what they were refer to as a 428 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 3: strategy of disinformation. And while Yanik talks a good and 429 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 3: very compelling talk, the constellation of neglected details and outright 430 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 3: on truths that our experts have pointed to across Equanor 431 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 3: and other oil companies, channels, touch points and collaborations seems problematic. 432 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 3: Julia explains the core of the issue. 433 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 4: When the Norwegian oil companies are going into schools and 434 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 4: are going into sports and working with the media and 435 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 4: working with everyone, where do we learn how. 436 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 5: Oil and climate is connected? 437 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 3: So, according to Julia and klimacal Tour, there are few 438 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 3: spaces in Norway where children or anyone for that matter, 439 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 3: can learn how oil and climate change are deeply intertwined. 440 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 3: And this separation of oil and climate doesn't just show 441 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 3: up in the public discourse. It shows up in politics too, 442 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 3: where our experts claim it shapes the way Norway sees 443 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 3: itself in relation to international obligations and how it thinks 444 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 3: about responsible climate action. To explore this further, let's hear 445 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 3: from Anakar and Sath, journalist, author and project leader at 446 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 3: the Norwegian Climate Foundation, Norway's green think tank. 447 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 8: Oil politics and climate politics there have been discussed separately 448 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 8: in Norway like it's been two different planets. So that 449 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 8: also influenced politicians in parliament and the parties, and then 450 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 8: the public in general. 451 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 3: Anakar And explained that fossil fuels have been managed under 452 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 3: the euse Emissions Trading System or ETS, which in simple terms, 453 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 3: limits how much industries can pollute. Companies need permits for 454 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 3: their emissions right, and if they want to emit more, 455 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 3: they have to buy extra permits from within a limited 456 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 3: supply what's referred to as the carbon budget. This creates 457 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 3: a financial incentive to cut emissions because reducing pollution can 458 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: save money or even let cleaner companies profit by selling 459 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 3: unused permits. So although you can shuffle it's around between companies, 460 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 3: ultimately there's a cap on how much can be omitted overall. Meanwhile, 461 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 3: climate policy takes aim at domestic consumption, completely disregarding the 462 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 3: exported emissions of Norway's biggest business. This setup offers some 463 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 3: clues as to how the paradox of a climate friendly 464 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 3: oil nation could come to pass. To dig a little deeper, though, 465 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 3: here's bord Land from the Oil and Society Research Network 466 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 3: at the University of Oslo, who explains more about this 467 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 3: curious situation and how things have begun to change in 468 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 3: recent years. 469 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 9: There's a lot of interest and a lot of questions 470 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 9: about this. When I meet colleagues in other countries, because 471 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 9: from the outside it seems so far fetched. First of all, 472 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,959 Speaker 9: it rests very strongly on this idea that you can 473 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 9: draw a very sharp distinction between the demand for foster 474 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 9: fuels and the supply for fossil fuels. And there is 475 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,719 Speaker 9: this idea in Norwegian politics that climate policy should only 476 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 9: deal with the demand for fossil fuels. 477 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 3: Let me quickly add here that by demand board means 478 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 3: domestic Norwegian demand. 479 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 9: And you know in that area we're doing quite well, right. 480 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 9: We're doing lots of stuff to reduce the demand for 481 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 9: fossil fuels. We're buying electric vehicles to replace our combustion 482 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 9: engine vehicles. This is even how you can explain the 483 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 9: logic of shutting down gas fired power plants on the 484 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 9: oil and gas platforms and then power oil and gas 485 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 9: platforms with wind power and hydropower, and you know, making 486 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 9: that out to be a climate measure, and that's what 487 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 9: you're supposed to do according to this logic in climate policy. 488 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 9: And then the supply of fossil fuels is a completely 489 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 9: different question. And so as long as there is a 490 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 9: demand for fossils fuels out there, then we are going 491 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 9: to keep supplying the product, and then, of course the 492 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 9: other logic is that Norwegian oil and gas is actually 493 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 9: cleaner than the average oil and gas out there, so 494 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 9: we're actually doing the world of favor by supplying them 495 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 9: with cleaner oil and gas. So again this relates to 496 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 9: the strong distinction between supply and demand and the idea 497 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 9: that we don't have to take any response ability for 498 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,479 Speaker 9: the oil and gas that we export to other countries 499 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 9: and the emission that gives rise to. 500 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 3: So according to our experts, efforts focused on reducing domestic 501 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 3: Norwegian demand for fossil fuels target the likes of electric vehicles, 502 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: boilers in homes, and clean energy on oil platforms, the 503 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 3: stuff that Norway is really well known for, while the 504 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 3: supply of fossil fuel continues as long as there's global 505 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 3: demand for the product, justified by energy security and the 506 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 3: idea that Norwegian oil and gas are relatively cleaner than 507 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 3: the alternatives. This division has shaped political discussions and the 508 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 3: way the public thinks about climate action. Keeping oil and 509 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 3: climate largely on two separate tracks. 510 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 9: Throughout the nineteen nineties and two thousands, this worked really well, 511 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 9: so Norway was actually able to discuss these things quite 512 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 9: separately and show a green image to the world. But then, 513 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 9: of course this changed a lot with the introduction of 514 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 9: the two degree target, the one point five target, and 515 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 9: eventually the Harry's Agreement. Because when you had these new 516 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 9: targets and you have a finite carbon budget and you 517 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 9: know that we really cannot exceed this budget. This is 518 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 9: how much we can emit before we have to stop altogether, 519 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 9: then that costs oil and gas production in very different lights, 520 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 9: and we're no longer able to separate those questions quite 521 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 9: as neatly, and that has really caused a lot of 522 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 9: tensions and difficulties for in Norwegian politicians who were used 523 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 9: to discussing these things separately. There are some very nice 524 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 9: quotes from former Prime Minister and as would Bag about this. 525 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 9: She has been complaining very explicitly actually in several election 526 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 9: campaigns that someone has mixed these things up, you know, 527 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 9: taken the climate issue and turned it into an oil issue, 528 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 9: and that's all wrong, as if those things really don't 529 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 9: have anything to do with each other, right, And you 530 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 9: can kind of see this frustration in her that people 531 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 9: are suddenly conflating these two things that we used to 532 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 9: keep separate. So that has really been I think very 533 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 9: consequential for the way that these things have been discussed 534 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 9: in Norway. That this separation has really broken down. 535 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 3: I think are experts highlight that oil and climate have 536 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 3: not only been associated in the storytelling, but also in 537 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 3: the policy making. Despite rising temperatures, international commitments, and more 538 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 3: knowledge about fossil fuel's impacts, commentators claim that political will 539 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 3: is lacking. Meanwhile, they claim industry communication works to maintain 540 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 3: the status quo. Here's and Catherine Vorga from Offshore Norway 541 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 3: expressing the emergent response to oil and climate being discussed together. 542 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 7: The problem is the emissions, not the oil and gas. 543 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 7: By reducing the emissions linked to the production and use 544 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 7: of the oil and gas, we are limiting the CEO 545 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 7: tutored atmosphere, and still we can use the fossil fuel 546 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 7: and sis. 547 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 3: You hear the logic oil itself isn't the issue, only 548 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 3: the emissions are. Yannik from Equinor expressed a similar idea 549 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 3: when we spoke too, essentially that if we can electrify 550 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 3: the oil rigs with renewable energy and captur A the 551 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 3: CO two from burning the product, then fossil fuels and 552 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 3: just keep flowing without consequence. It's a line of thinking 553 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 3: that puts a lot of faith in largely unproven technologies 554 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 3: that are being touted as solutions by the oil and 555 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 3: gas sector, and true to one of the petrogander narratives 556 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 3: we discussed at the beginning of this episode, frames the 557 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 3: industry as essential to the green transition, but that wasn't 558 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 3: the only framing and Catherine applied during our conversation. She 559 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 3: also echoed another of Board's observations, the idea that the 560 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 3: real driver isn't Nolway's production, but our collective demand for 561 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 3: oil in everyday life. This is another of the core 562 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 3: narratives of petroganda identified by drilled media, shifting responsibility from 563 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 3: producers onto consumers in order to justify continued extraction, and 564 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 3: it's the underlying narrative of many of the exhibits in 565 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 3: the science museums too. 566 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 7: So we are fulfilling the demand for energy for the people. 567 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 7: That must be affordable energy, and then it's up to 568 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 7: the politicians and regulators to put incentives for the renewables 569 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 7: to be cheaper than the oil and gas. And we 570 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 7: see that by higher and higher costs of omitting CO two. 571 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 3: Those higher costs of emitting CO two are caused by 572 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,720 Speaker 3: the shrinking pool of permits from the European Emissions Trading 573 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 3: System or ETS that we talked about earlier. As the 574 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 3: number of unused permits falls, demand rises along with their value, 575 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 3: so the cost to pollute goes up. But let's get 576 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 3: back to Anne Catherine. 577 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 7: In this picture, is important for us to provide good 578 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 7: information to the regulators so they are able to set 579 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:38,919 Speaker 7: the right incentives. 580 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: So, according to Anne Katherine, the ball is very much 581 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 3: in the hands of politicians, and politicians answer to the people. 582 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 3: But if the people aren't being provided with the right information, 583 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 3: as we've already heard, how can they hold politicians to account? 584 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 3: How can they make the right choices when it comes 585 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 3: to who to elect or which policies to champion. In 586 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 3: the pre episode, we heard how Norwegians prioritize climate and 587 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 3: the environment above many other key voting issues. So surely 588 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 3: the media is providing the necessary fact based information to 589 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 3: help citizens make decisions that align with their values. Right, 590 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 3: Let's hear from Cilia ask Lundberg from Oil Change International 591 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 3: to find out. 592 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 10: We don't see the effects of the industry happening or 593 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 10: the effects to the environment. So that kind of makes 594 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 10: it blind for us. Back in the early nineties and 595 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 10: up until like the early two thousand, you had dedicated 596 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 10: the journalists that were following the oil and gas industry 597 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 10: in Norway. Now you don't have that anymore. But also 598 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 10: the oil and gas industry itself has become very hard 599 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 10: for people to get information out on what's actually happening 600 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 10: during this summer. You've had in VEGA how it's been 601 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 10: for workers working on Melga in Hammerfest in the north 602 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 10: of Norway on an LNG facility. 603 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 3: A quick note here that VEGA is the national news 604 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 3: outlet and LNG stands for liquefied natural gas. 605 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 10: So they're exposing how workers are getting sick, how you've 606 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 10: had like gas flow out and hasn't been reported people 607 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 10: are still working getting sick, and how equinor has treated them. 608 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 10: I think that there are a lot more of stories 609 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 10: like that, but it's not getting reported because you don't 610 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 10: have that tracking of the oil and gas industry the 611 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 10: same way that you used to have. Not that it 612 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 10: was exceptional in the nineties, but you had more coverage 613 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 10: of how the oil and gas industry were behaving now, 614 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 10: the narrative is so strong that the oil and gas 615 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 10: industry has Norway's best interests at heart. 616 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 3: According to the European Broadcasting Unions twenty twenty three report, 617 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 3: Climate Journalism that works. Effective climate journalism is that which 618 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 3: shows what is at stake, who is responsible, what can 619 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 3: be done about it, and finally, who is responsible for 620 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 3: making which type of action. Ascilia explains, despite a culture 621 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 3: of media freedom in Norway, with few informed voices, posing 622 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 3: questions and following stories up, what gets said, whether by 623 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 3: the industry or indeed politicians, is often taken as truth. 624 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 3: You might remember from the previous episode that culturally Norwegians 625 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 3: don't tend to say things unless they mean them. But 626 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 3: miss and disinformation not only relate to blatantly false claims, 627 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 3: they also relate to instances where as we've already noted, 628 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 3: of industry communications, facts and context are left out. Indeed, 629 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 3: Andreas biel and Eriksson, Norway's Minister of Climate and the Environment, 630 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 3: has actively been addressing climate disinformation both at home and abroad. 631 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 3: Earlier this year, at a seminar hosted by Cicero, Norway's 632 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 3: leading climate research institute, he defined disinformation as the intentional 633 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 3: spreading of false information about climate and climate policies to 634 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 3: mislead the public, often for political or financial gain, or 635 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 3: simply to Court's harm. The striking thing, though, is that 636 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 3: he didn't mention Norway's own oil and gas industry and 637 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 3: the country's role as a major fossil fuel producer. They 638 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 3: were completely absent from the discussion. Domestic sources of climate 639 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 3: misinformation weren't even considered. This reflects a common pattern in 640 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 3: Norwegian public discourse. The oil industry is kept largely off 641 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 3: the table, while disinformation is blamed on foreign actors. According 642 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 3: to Celia from Oil Change International, the way that Norway's 643 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 3: oil industry is seen in comparison to fossil fuel companies 644 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 3: elsewhere is noteworthy. 645 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 10: So in Norway, for example, it would never fly to 646 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 10: talk about big oil. You have that in very many 647 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 10: other countries, like in the US, in the UK, but 648 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 10: you can't do that in Oorway in the same way 649 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 10: because the general public is like, what do you mean 650 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 10: with big oil equinor but we own equinor. The narrative 651 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 10: that has been built also protects the oil and gas 652 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 10: industry in many ways, and I think that is like 653 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 10: a huge blind spot for the Norwegian public. The same time, 654 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 10: I mean it's important also to not only paint this 655 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,839 Speaker 10: very bleak picture, but also to say that more and 656 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 10: more of the Norwegian public are increasingly critical to the 657 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 10: oil and gas industry and want new policies in place, 658 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 10: but that the major I would say hold up is 659 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 10: the big political parties like the Labor Party and the 660 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 10: conservative parties of both sides of the aisle that are 661 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 10: very much just repeating the talking points that comes from 662 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 10: the oil and gas industry and are the ones that 663 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 10: are maybe most active in just maintaining status quo and 664 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 10: not want to talk that much about the negative impacts 665 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 10: of oil and gas. 666 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 3: In the previous episode, we learned about the benefits that 667 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 3: politicians see in the oil money and their ability to 668 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 3: generate support by offering prosperity to local and regional interests, 669 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 3: and there is indeed a close relationship between state roles 670 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 3: and oil business roles. Those with experience running the largest 671 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 3: business operations in the country, the oil companies are often 672 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 3: tapped to take the reins on major boards and decisions. 673 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 3: Julia for Chamma offers some examples from the cultural sector, 674 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 3: explaining how the Norwegian Ministry of Culture has been responsible 675 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 3: for appointing people with extensive histories within oil and gas 676 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 3: to the boards of neu's major cultural institutions, and that 677 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 3: this has had a direct impact on their appetite for 678 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 3: oil sponsorship. For example, the leader of the board of 679 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 3: Bergen International Festival is a former minister of oil who 680 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,720 Speaker 3: also sits on the board of Norway's second largest oil company. 681 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 3: The leader of the board of the new National Museum 682 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 3: in Oslo also comes from oil and gas, previously with 683 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 3: a role on the board of American oil company Conoco Phillips. 684 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 3: Julia reflects on the issue that she sees here. 685 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 4: So how can cultural leaders in Norway kick out the 686 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 4: oil sponsors and how can they take a meaningful place 687 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 4: in the discussion of the climate crisis and the Noruedian 688 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 4: oil business when their boards are filled with oil executives 689 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 4: placed there by the state. That's something you don't see 690 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 4: in many Way countries. So state, oil, culture and arts 691 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 4: very very closely connected. 692 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 5: In Norway. 693 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,919 Speaker 3: We've already heard how the Director of Education incorporates oil 694 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 3: interest into the nation's schooling. But the situation that Julia 695 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 3: describes whereby oil friendly folks are installed in major boards 696 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 3: and even government agencies. Is another that we see all 697 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 3: over Norwegian society. For example, the communications director at the 698 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 3: Norwegian Arts Council comes from offshore Norway. And beyond the 699 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 3: cultural sector, there's an oil executive on the ethics board 700 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 3: of the Sovereign Wealth Fund, a former Shell employee serving 701 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 3: as director general for the Norwegian Offshore Directorate, and, as 702 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 3: we discussed in the previous episode, even a politician who 703 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,919 Speaker 3: started his own oil company. The list goes on and on. 704 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,760 Speaker 3: In twenty twenty two, oil Change International mapped the network 705 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 3: of Norwegian oil interests and found that this relatively small 706 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 3: number of companies and organizations is deeply woven into the 707 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 3: country's business and political landscape. Around a quarter of the 708 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 3: hunt most connected organizations was found to have strong ties 709 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 3: to the fossil fuel industry. The analysis highlighted how oil 710 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 3: and gas interests are linked to trade unions, business groups 711 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:14,879 Speaker 3: and political parties. Yet while the oil companies are undeniably influential, 712 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,760 Speaker 3: author journalist and project leader at the Norwegian Climate Foundation 713 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,280 Speaker 3: an A. Current Satha, says the real power still rests 714 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 3: with politicians who continue to support the industry despite knowing 715 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 3: the environmental costs. In her book The Best Intentions, she 716 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 3: explored what went wrong with Norway's oil adventure and when 717 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 3: it became toxic. Here's her reflection from the research process 718 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 3: for the book. 719 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 8: My idea was that Equinor is sort of having a 720 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,919 Speaker 8: lot of power of Norwichian politicians. But that's just half 721 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 8: the story because in many ways the politicians want to 722 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 8: go even further than Equinor. And it's not like equin 723 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 8: is using the politicians. They want this money. It's so 724 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 8: part of our economy, so they are competing. Or local 725 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 8: politicians they say we want the new land site to 726 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 8: be in our city or in our region. And in 727 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 8: the north hum Midfest it was a city that was 728 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 8: sort of almost dead and then it grew and prospered 729 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 8: and the local politicians love oil and gas there and 730 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 8: the majority in the parliament they are pro further exploration. 731 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 8: So it's not like the Equinor has all power. This 732 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 8: is something that politicians, or at least the majority of 733 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 8: politicians in our way, actually wants. 734 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 3: In communication, my area of expertise, we often look at 735 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 3: what shapes the way people make sense of information. I 736 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 3: can't help but wonder if what these politicians are experiencing 737 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 3: is motivated reasoning. It's a psychological process where desires, values, 738 00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 3: or interest influence how people process facts. Rather than evaluateating 739 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,880 Speaker 3: information objectively, we tend to accept whatever aligns with our 740 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 3: existing beliefs or goals and dismiss or rationalize away whatever 741 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 3: challenges them. This bias protects our worldview or our self interest, 742 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,720 Speaker 3: often leading to selective thinking and resistance to change even 743 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 3: in the face of strong evidence. In the context of 744 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 3: climate and energy, motivated reasoning helps explain why some people 745 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 3: or organizations downplay environmental concerns to preserve economic or political interests. 746 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,359 Speaker 3: It may also shed light on why many Norwegians instinctively 747 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 3: defend the oil industry. It's not just about facts, but 748 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 3: about deeply held identities, values, and economic ties. These are 749 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 3: the kinds of forces we've seen at work throughout the 750 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 3: series so far, helping explain why the oil industry maintains 751 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 3: such a strong presence in local life and how its 752 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 3: influence shapes perceptions of climate and energy. Let's hear from 753 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 3: Julia for Chammer one more time, who explains a term 754 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,759 Speaker 3: she coined oil, explaining to describe the common phenomenon of 755 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 3: Norwegians defending the oil industry using talking points straight out 756 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 3: of the industry playbook. 757 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 4: Every Norwegian know how to oil explain. So when I 758 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 4: meet someone, it could be friends, it could be very 759 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 4: nice people. They start oil splaining, Yeah, but Julie, remember 760 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 4: what the oil has done for Norway, how many jobs, 761 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 4: how much money? Our oil is greener, how lucky is 762 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 4: the world that we have Norwegian oil. It's better that 763 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 4: we do it. And then I know I have to 764 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 4: peel this onion layer by layer and say yes, but this, yes, 765 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,239 Speaker 4: but this, but that happens in Norway, and people mean 766 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,839 Speaker 4: it really, really well. And I think, of course it's 767 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 4: difficult when you have family who's working in the oil business, 768 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,959 Speaker 4: or people feel closely attached to it. And that's why 769 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 4: I think we and klimachel Tour are always saying that 770 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 4: we don't want everybody to agree, but we need to 771 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 4: have these conversations. We need to talk about it, and 772 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,280 Speaker 4: we also need people to under stand why the oil 773 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 4: industry is doing these things, why they're sponsoring so many 774 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,880 Speaker 4: local community activities all around the coastline. 775 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 3: We've traced the black thread through different parts of Norwegian life, education, culture, community, 776 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 3: and politics. We've heard how the fossil fuel industry's presence 777 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 3: shows up in sponsorships, public narratives, and everyday institutions, shaping 778 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,960 Speaker 3: how oil is understood and discussed, and, by their own admission, 779 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 3: working to ensure social license at a time of increasing unpopularity. 780 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 3: At the same time, we learned how such narratives bleed 781 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,840 Speaker 3: into the ways oil is governed, with policymakers treating oil 782 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,120 Speaker 3: and climate as largely separate issues, leading to a situation 783 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 3: where measures to reduce domestic demand for fossil fuels are 784 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 3: celebrated alongside continued production, even as temperatures rise, international condemnation increases, 785 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 3: and research continually highlights their impact on the climate. Meanwhile, 786 00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 3: the likes of the Ministry of Culture and the Directorate 787 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 3: of Education are actively involved in the proliferation of an 788 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 3: oil positive public life. What's more, our experts add that 789 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 3: journalistic scrutiny has declined, leaving yet more gaps in the 790 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 3: public debate, creating an environment where talking points from the industry, 791 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 3: often repeated by politicians, go unchecked and unchallenged. Following, The 792 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 3: Black Thread highlights how economic, cultural, and political factors intersect 793 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 3: in Norway, shaping perceptions of the nation's energy future and 794 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,879 Speaker 3: limiting its capacity for change in the here and now, 795 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 3: essentially creating a self reinforcing system that ensures oil extraction continues. 796 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 3: Next time, we'll examine some of the logic that's used 797 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 3: to justify these conditions, testing the stories against the facts, 798 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 3: and seeing what does and doesn't stand up to the reality. 799 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,239 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening, and catch you next time. The Black 800 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 3: Thread is a collaboration between Communicating Climate Change and Klimacletur. 801 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 3: It was written and narrated by Dick and Bonvigstone, produced 802 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 3: and edited by Lee vs. Solid Shularud, and the executive 803 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 3: producer was vig DEAs Bondvikstone artwork is by Anya Jamushkevich. 804 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 3: For more information, see the show notes.