1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Hi is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Thanks for listening 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: to Death and Deceit in Alliance. Hope you enjoy this 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: new episode. For access to all fourteen episodes ad free 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: and all at once, subscribe with Apple Podcasts on our 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: show page. 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance. 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 3: The murder of a mother of five in her own 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 3: home stunt the small town of Alliance, Ohio. Twenty six 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 3: year old i Ron Lang found in a pool of 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 3: her own blood. 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 4: This case is. 12 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 3: Filled with sex, secrets, and surprises. The attack grabbed headlines 13 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 3: as police hunted for a killer. 14 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 5: I was showing a photo of Joseph Wilms. It was 15 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 5: not the man I thought leading the residents of. 16 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 4: Nazis last what motivated them to give false statements? 17 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 3: Did the system convict the wrong. 18 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 4: That pretty much dead in the water. 19 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 6: We need new evidence. 20 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 2: This is Death and Deceit in Alliance, a real time 21 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling. 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 2: To start this journey, I want to take you back 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: to nineteen seventy two. That's when David was born to 24 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 2: Priscilla and David Thorn in Cleveland Ohio. David was raised 25 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 2: in a trailer in Ravenna, a town just a half 26 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 2: hour away from Alliance. David's dad was in the military 27 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: and was often not home. He had done tours in Vietnam, 28 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: and once he was home, he didn't like civilian life, 29 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: so he reenlisted. His mother was left to take care 30 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: of David on her own, but she also had to 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: make a living and was a long haul trucker, so 32 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: she was often gone for weeks at a time as well. 33 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 2: Hi is this Priscilla, Yes it is. 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, I moved my driver over the road. 35 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 7: I went to Canada and that wow. 36 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, that was my big chance. 37 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 5: You way. 38 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: And then when he was five, the course of his 39 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 2: life changed. David's dad was dealing with a lot of 40 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: issues from his time in Vietnam. 41 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 5: You know, he was in the Agent Orange. 42 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 7: He went in after Agent Orange, and he was always 43 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 7: telling them he at she had es that and they 44 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 7: said nothing was wrong with him, and you know, he 45 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 7: had bad headaches. 46 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: What did he say. 47 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 7: He talked to me for quite a few hours, James Wareless, 48 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 7: just questioning everything like that. Don't hardly have friends with me, 49 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 7: you know, he wasn't he wasn't himself. 50 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 5: He was talking monol if. 51 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 7: He talked to me for quite a few hours. 52 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: Wow. 53 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 6: And he told me he can I'll be home Saturday. 54 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 6: And I go, what it was? 55 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 7: Fy? He goes, I go, you ud go? 56 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 5: How want to tell Fie? 57 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 7: You know? And he don't worry, I'll be home now, way. 58 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: Out the car and shouting, oh my gosh. 59 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 60 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 7: Took me over twenty some years to be able to 61 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 7: say that without crying. 62 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: I mean, that is really really difficult. Afterwards, family life 63 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: started to spiral. David was lucky though. He went to 64 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: live with his grandparents when he was six and they 65 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: went on to raise him. In talking about his childhood, 66 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: David seems to glide by all the tumult. He says 67 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: he was a happy kid raised by his grandparents. 68 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 8: I guess it would be. I would assume that she 69 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 8: had kind of consider it kind of boring. I didn't 70 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 8: really do much work. Kicked in with a couple of 71 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 8: the friends that I had. 72 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 6: And we had upon how he's a fish. Hunt. 73 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 2: This is David's aunt Vickie. 74 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 7: He could run ATV's out there and hunt or do 75 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 7: whatever you want to do. 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 9: So I would say David had a good life out there. 77 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 9: David was always an animal lover. He was always gifted 78 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 9: it humor. Even now when I see him in prison 79 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 9: and we do our video visit and we visit that guy, 80 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 9: no matter how are you feeling, it's. 81 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 5: Always in good spirit, smiling at telling Joe. 82 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 2: So, David had a lot of pread. At around seventeen, 83 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: in his junior year of high school, he entered a 84 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: trade school. He was studying printing, hunting trades. 85 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 5: Yeah, from a hobject printing to the stream printing for gear. 86 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: And that's where he met Yvonne Lane. Yvonne was born 87 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: just two months before David. She had two sisters and 88 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: grew up an Alliance. Historically, Alliance had been a thriving 89 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: manufacturing and railroad hub. Then manufacturing left and it became 90 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 2: part of the rust belt. In the nineteen sixties, the 91 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 2: population peaked, and at the time of Yvonne's murder, Alliance 92 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: was home to twenty three thousand people, and they were 93 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 2: not prosperous. The median income for a household was about 94 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: half that of the rest of the state. Unlike David's, 95 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 2: Yvonne's childhood is basically a mystery to me. I couldn't 96 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 2: reach her family and friends could really only speak about 97 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: her older years. What I do know is that she 98 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 2: grew up in a super religious Jehovah's Witness household, which 99 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: must have been challenging. As Yvonne got older, she started 100 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: to rebel and attract a lot of male attamps. She 101 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: had her first child at sixteen. From what I understand, 102 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 2: the child's father wasn't much in the picture. Yvonne was young, 103 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 2: and her parents wound up doing most of the caretaking 104 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 2: of her son. Yvonne, now a mother, was looking to 105 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: do something with her life, so she decided to go 106 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: to school for cosmetology, and that's where she met David. 107 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: They went to the sat In Trade School. David says 108 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: he'd seen Yvonne around for years and he was always 109 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: struck by her looks. He says, she was gorgeous. 110 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 8: Of course, that's what attracted me to her in the 111 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 8: first place. I'd just seen her at the school, so 112 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 8: whenever I talked to her, it was just then patting. 113 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 6: In the hall the that dodge. 114 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: And for the record, David was also handsome and had friends. 115 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 2: He was kind and caring. With the looks and personality, 116 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: I'd say he was also a couch. To this date, 117 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: over a year of research, I have yet to come 118 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: across one person who had anything bad to say about David. 119 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: After graduating, David worked making decals for restored cars. He 120 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 2: was doing pretty well for himself, making good money, and 121 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: everything was on the right track. One day in nineteen 122 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: ninety five, David says he was at an auto parts store. 123 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 6: And that's where I had seen her again. 124 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: By her, he means Yvonne. 125 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 6: As soon as she. 126 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 8: Come walking in, he just kind of cast me on 127 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 8: the shoulder and points. I was at the register in line, 128 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 8: getting ready to buy something, and I turned back and 129 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 8: I looked and I recognized her that I couldn't place 130 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 8: her name because I knew that it was not a 131 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 8: common name, but I couldn't remember it being that it 132 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 8: was I would say, five, five years old, six years 133 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 8: later almost so by the time we go out, she 134 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 8: comes walking out, and then it just dawned on me 135 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 8: what her name was. So I said, you're gone, and 136 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 8: she looked over and she goes, I didn't think you 137 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 8: recognized me, And I told her I said, I couldn't 138 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 8: place the name that at first it took me a second, 139 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 8: and then she just kind of laughed and we started talking. 140 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: From there, David says he fixed her car and that's 141 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: how the relationship started. David's aunt remember seeing them at 142 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: family gatherings. 143 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 5: Alice thought she was very nice, very pretty. 144 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 7: I can see why he fell loved. 145 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 2: Her, and she seems like she made him happy. 146 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 6: I think she did, I really do. 147 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: I asked David to describe you, Vonne. 148 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 5: I don't know. 149 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 4: I guess I would have to describe it almost just 150 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 4: a social butterfly, because she could pretty much talk to anybody. 151 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: If you were in the garage working on something, she 152 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 4: could talk to you, be knowledgeable about it. And her 153 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 4: only big topics that she didn't want to talk about 154 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 4: were politics and religion. 155 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 6: You know. 156 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 5: But she could put on the next clothes, we could 157 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 5: go anywhere. 158 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 4: We could put on blood clothes and joke on the 159 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 4: four wheeler and build luodbogging. I went into the car, 160 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 4: so you know, we went from swap meets to drag 161 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 4: races to different track advents, and I mean she was 162 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 4: sheer knowledgeable about it. 163 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 5: I mean she was into it. 164 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 4: It wasn't like I was just forcing her hand and 165 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 4: dragging her along on everything. 166 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 5: At the bloodler wanted to do or anything. 167 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: By the time she and David started dating, Yvonne had 168 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 2: three kids. Her first was in the custody of Yvon's parents. 169 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 6: I honestly thought that he was her. 170 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 8: Brother, that maybe her parents had a kid, and you 171 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 8: know later in life that they didn't actually intend on 172 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 8: having because whenever we had gone over there, it's he'd 173 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 8: call her sissy. So I just I just cook it 174 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 8: with the face that year that that was its hisster, 175 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 8: you know. 176 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 6: What I mean. 177 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: Yvonne's second child is Preston, born three years after her first. 178 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 2: This is Preston. He was six when his mother died. 179 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 10: She loved playing flowers, did that lot? We went for 180 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 10: walks a lot. We played video gos. She was a 181 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 10: terrible cook. She loves calling jokes. 182 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 2: What would she make that was so bad? 183 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 5: Well, the world's best bounce on eggs. They're like lover 184 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 5: and can you go to the eggs of the super Boss. 185 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: Do you remember ever meeting David. 186 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 10: Yeah, I've met him quite a few times, a couple 187 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 10: of times at the house, but mainly at his house. 188 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 2: Oh, she would bring you guys over to his house. 189 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 10: Yeah, this is a really cool guy. It's always really 190 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 10: nice to me. Sometimes it would only hang out with 191 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 10: just me. 192 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 11: About maybe some Christmas stuff before or maybe it was 193 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 11: a birthday. 194 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: Pregnant, Yvonne's third and youngest at the time was born 195 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: with a rare genetic condition called fragile X, causing developmental delays, 196 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: learning disabilities, and social and behavior problems. Yvonne was actually 197 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,359 Speaker 2: in the middle of a lawsuit against the Alliance City Hospital, 198 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: claiming they cut off her son's air supply during birth 199 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: and caused birth injuries. Yvonne wasn't working when she died. 200 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: She was receiving public assistance, including Social Security, for her 201 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: son's disabilities, so a lawsuit could have yielded much needed money. 202 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: The father of Yvonne's second and third children is Eric Cameron. 203 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 2: Yvonn and Eric's lives would be intertwined four years, through 204 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: good times and bad. Eric was constantly in and out 205 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: of prison, and Yvonne must have been overwhelmed taking care 206 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 2: of the kids by herself, though fortunately Eric's mother took 207 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 2: in Vinnie, Yvonne's disabled child, and her parents had custody 208 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 2: of her first so to see her kids, Yvonne shuttled 209 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: back and forth between Eric's mother's house and her parents' house. 210 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: When David entered the picture, Eric was in jail. I'm 211 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 2: not exactly sure for what. Around this time. He had 212 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: many charges, including domestic assault. Yvonne and David dated for 213 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: about a year, including after Eric got home from jail. 214 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: David says Eric was continually interfering in his relationship with Yvonne, 215 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: getting angry when Yvonne would take the kids out with him. 216 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 2: David says that one time Eric took his anger out 217 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: on David and destroyed one of his customer's cars. David 218 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: says that was one of the last straws. David was 219 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: convinced that a relationship with Yvonne was not sustainable with 220 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: Eric around, so eventually they broke up. 221 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 5: You know, her and I didn't grow up hard or 222 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 5: anything like that. We got along great. 223 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 8: I still had I still had a lot of love 224 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 8: for her, you know, so you had feelings even if 225 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 8: you break up. I think that's why people are so 226 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 8: mean to each other when they break up, is because 227 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 8: they truly love them, and that's what makes the hurt 228 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 8: that much more because you love them. And so when 229 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 8: something happened that you guys break up, you kind of 230 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 8: try to turn that switch off, and that's the only 231 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 8: way to make everything bearable is to. 232 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 6: Be angry with that person. 233 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 12: And her and I never really had that because we 234 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 12: weren't breaking up for what either one of us were doing. 235 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 12: We were breaking up because of Eric, you know. And 236 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 12: he was always going to be present because he was 237 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 12: the father of her other kids. 238 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 2: So, by all accounts, Yvonne's relationship with Eric was up 239 00:13:58,960 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: and down. 240 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 7: Eric and Yvonne had they were good, but they had 241 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 7: some bad qualities when they're together. 242 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: This is Tracy Loa, Eric's sister. Now I want to 243 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 2: pause for a second. At this point, Yvonne is around 244 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 2: twenty four, has three kids with two different dads, and 245 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: no one, especially me, is shaming her at all. I 246 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: don't care how many people someone sleeps with, or how 247 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: many kids they have at what age. God knows. I 248 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 2: was doing all sorts of things. But it is important 249 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 2: to talk about because all of this will play a 250 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: crucial role in her murder investigation. So you guys had 251 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: heard back then that she was sleeping with a lot 252 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: of people. I mean, did Eric confront her about this? 253 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 13: Yes, it's been confronted, so and that was a lot 254 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 13: of the issues that she actually cheated on them a 255 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 13: couple of times. 256 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 5: That's why we were questioned questioning, and. 257 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: By questioning, she means the paternity of her second and 258 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: third kids, whether or not they were actually Eric's. They were, 259 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: but they thought about it. And these fights sounded violent. 260 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 13: And I'm not saying she wasn't, but at the same time, 261 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 13: it was both. 262 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: Because she was hit She hit Eric too quite. 263 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 5: A few times. 264 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: Preston, who again was just six at the time, remembers 265 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: the fights between his dad, Eric and his mother. 266 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 5: I loved her. She's crazy, but I loved her. She's 267 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 5: definitely crazy. She had a seco of. 268 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 10: It, kind of like a jack go and hide thing, 269 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 10: you know, the times everything she would type, personality, a. 270 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 5: Hunch you on the faces from baker cake. 271 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: Afterwards, David says he never saw any of that. David said, 272 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: they got along great and she was wonderful. 273 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 10: It would never round anybody, and only round pretty much. 274 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 11: Just do I ever seen her streak out towards anybody 275 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 11: other than my dad but me, And a few times 276 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 11: where she duc take me to my bed in port 277 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 11: soda on me. 278 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 5: You just left me there. 279 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: That sounds kind of abusive. 280 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 5: It definitely it. 281 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 10: I tried to kind of kind of twisted, but at 282 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 10: the same time, then she went through things like it's 283 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 10: like she would snap out of it and then she'd 284 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 10: be like the nice tours of the world. I don't know, 285 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 10: it's kind of like she would just it's kind of 286 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 10: use your patience with me or something. So like one 287 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 10: time she was talking on the phone and I kept 288 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 10: trying to get her attention. Of course, you know a 289 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 10: kid to being a kid that kept pulling out of 290 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 10: her shirt to get her attention. She told me to 291 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 10: stop and I didn't, so she touched me square on 292 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 10: my nose and duc take me. 293 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 5: She was over to the duct taping, so so she 294 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 5: was done with her phone call. 295 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 2: Shocking allegations that I can't confirm. But I don't know 296 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: why Presston would lie about mom, who he says he loved. 297 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: And I don't know if her mood swings play into 298 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 2: Yvonne's murder or not. But I had only ever heard 299 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 2: from David that Yvonne was a great mom and a 300 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 2: lovely person, and Preston, her son, says she wasn't violent 301 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: with David. But now I'm seeing a different side of Yvonne, 302 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: and I'm wondering did she piss someone off like Eric. Maybe, 303 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 2: as I'm hearing all this, I can't help but wonder 304 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 2: if Eric isn't a more likely suspect than David. Their 305 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: relationship featured jealousy, cheating, and physical violence. Sure makes it 306 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: seem to me that in an emotional fit, someone in 307 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 2: Eric's position might lose control, grab a kitchen knife. Say 308 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 2: remember that murder scene. It looked like it was personal. 309 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: The level of violence was so enormous. Things were complicated 310 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: in Yvonne's life. There were kids to take care of, 311 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 2: and fathers to juggle, and parents of those fathers taking 312 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: care of her kids. She seems to have struggled to 313 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 2: make money, and her temper too, maybe added to the chaos, 314 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 2: which may be understandable given how much she had to 315 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: manage in her life and for Yvonne, things were about 316 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 2: to get even more complicated. In nineteen ninety six, a 317 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: few months after David and Yvonne broke up, Yvonne was 318 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: back with Eric, but David got a surprise phone call 319 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 2: from her. She was pregnant again and she thought David 320 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: was the dad. 321 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 4: She asked me if I wanted her to have an abortion, 322 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 4: I told her, I said, I don't know if the 323 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 4: child is mine, but if the child is mine, I'm 324 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 4: not paying. 325 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 5: For an abortion. That was pretty much the end of 326 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 5: her or even talking for a minute. 327 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 2: David gets another call from Yvonne. A few months later. 328 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 4: Yvonne called back saying that she needed to go to 329 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 4: the hospital. She felt that she was having a miscarriage. 330 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 2: But she wasn't. She was still pregnant. And a few 331 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 2: months go by and then David hears from Yvonne again. 332 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 2: The baby is born November ninth, nineteen ninety six, shortly 333 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: after Yvonne calls David for a paternity test. 334 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 8: I went over, I met her, I met him, and 335 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 8: to be honest, upon saying him, there was almost there 336 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 8: was no reason to even have the DNA. 337 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 2: From the moment David saw his son, he says, he 338 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: knew he was his. 339 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 8: I mean he was mini me. If he's seen him, yeah, 340 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 8: if she's seen him at that time, that was that 341 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 8: was me at the same age. 342 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 2: David did take a paternity test just to be sure, 343 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: and as expected, Brandon was his. Yvonne wanted David to 344 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 2: pay child support. It was fixed at three hundred and 345 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 2: fifty one dollars every month, which he says he had 346 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: no problem paying. He says he wanted to support his 347 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: son and be a good dad, and at this point, 348 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: David was twenty four and ready for the responsibility. He 349 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: had the job, the stability, and was looking forward to 350 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 2: raising Brandon. David and Yvon worked out an agreeable visitation schedule, 351 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 2: and he and Brandon started to get to know each other. 352 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: Can you tell me about that bond you guys had. 353 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 8: Yeah, it was actually pretty instantaneous, because I mean as 354 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 8: soon as I saw him, I mean, I recognize myself, 355 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 8: but well, you know, he was a little shy at first, 356 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 8: but I'm a fairly outgoing person, so I didn't really 357 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 8: let him just look at me. 358 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 6: I just picked him up and kind of went from there. 359 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 2: About two years later, by the time David was twenty six, 360 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 2: he was taking Brandon on all kinds of adventures to 361 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: fish in his pond and hiking to show him all 362 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 2: sorts of wild animals. Brandon loved animals like deer and foxes. 363 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 2: David said. Brandon also loved coming to his house because 364 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: David raised exotic animals, including a cougar cub named Harley. 365 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 8: I personally only ever owned Harley. But I've had dozens 366 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 8: of lion cubs and tiger cubs and other cougars, and 367 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 8: I had a multitude of snakes though myself that I 368 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 8: had big body snake for bowers and pythons, but Harley 369 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 8: was the only big cat. And I mean, it's kind 370 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 8: of odd to have seen, you know, one hundred and 371 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 8: thirty five pound cougar that the Little Box trained. 372 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: There's a photo of Brandon and David with Harley. From 373 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: all accounts, David and Yvonne had a good relationship, even 374 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 2: if they were broken up and seeing other people. In fact, 375 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 2: David says they were talking about getting back together. 376 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 8: You know, I had killings for her. She's the mother 377 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 8: of my child, and I never not liked her. I 378 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 8: mean when I was I was young, and like I said, 379 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 8: so it's pretty I started talking and everything, and yeah, 380 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 8: we've started kind of a relationship behind the scenes because 381 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 8: I was stilled dating somebody. 382 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: And Yvonne was technically still with Eric, although he was 383 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 2: back in prison on a drug charge. 384 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 8: And so you know, her and I became active again 385 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 8: with each other. Her and I had to kind of 386 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 8: stipball the idea about moving away to one app back 387 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 8: of moving out west and or going to the Florida 388 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 8: and potentially Atlanta. 389 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 2: And this is where David, being the nice guy that 390 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: he was comes into play. From an outsider's view and 391 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: what family members have told me, it seems like Eric 392 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: was the bad boy Yvonne couldn't quit. Whenever things got 393 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 2: bad with Eric, Yvonne would look for stability with David, 394 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 2: the sweet man with the good job and reliable income. 395 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: David told me they were even talking about maybe getting 396 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: back together and leaving Ohio and stuff like that. Yeah, 397 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 2: this is David's aunt again. I had heard that too. 398 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 6: You did hear that? 399 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: Okay, I did hear that. Do you remember? 400 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 9: Because I thought they were getting back together what I 401 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 9: was hearing. 402 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 2: It's the spring of nineteen ninety nine, and yvon now 403 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 2: has five boys, ten, six, four, two and a baby. 404 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: She says her newest is again Eric Cameron's the biological 405 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: father of two of her other children. In the evening 406 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 2: of March thirty first, nineteen ninety nine, David went to 407 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 2: his martial arts class. He had gotten into shoot fighting, 408 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: a combination of a bunch of martial arts techniques. 409 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:40,239 Speaker 8: Shoot stay like how a reclo would shoot him through 410 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 8: a shoot Yeah, good night down. 411 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: Yvonne's body was discovered on April Fool's Day, nineteen ninety nine, 412 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 2: and was presumably murdered the night of March thirty first, 413 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: and David says he can account for all his time. 414 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 2: That night, he brought his cougar cub to martial arts 415 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 2: class to show it off. Then after class, he says, 416 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: he went to his girlfriend's house for a little dropped 417 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 2: off the cub, and went to sleep. At about one 418 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 2: a m. The next morning, he clocked into work at 419 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: six ten am. At ten fifteen, he took his lunch break, 420 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 2: and pretty much as soon as he got back to work. 421 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 14: All of a sudden, my bough son come running into 422 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 14: my room and he said that I need to get 423 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 14: on the phone, but it was important and my grandfather 424 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 14: was calling. 425 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 6: And so then I told him to, you know, tell 426 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 6: me what happened. 427 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 8: And he said that she was murdered, but her mom 428 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 8: had found her, that she was stays down in a 429 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 8: pool of blood. I'm hearing the word that he was saying, 430 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 8: but they're just not making sense. And then the realization 431 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 8: of it coming in that this had actually. 432 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 2: Happened, twenty six year old Yvonne Lane was dead. 433 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 8: So, I mean I just pulled my boss to son 434 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 8: right there. I was like, you know, I gotta go, 435 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 8: and I'm half explaining of what's going is I'm walking 436 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 8: out the door and he's following out to the car. 437 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: What were you thinking when all of this went down? 438 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 2: Like what was going through your head? I mean, I 439 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 2: can't even imagine. And your son was in the house 440 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 2: in the pop bench. 441 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 8: Well whenever I initially got the call, and then I 442 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 8: go over and I pick him up. 443 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 6: I mean, just like shock and awe. 444 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 8: It's like as if it's not even real, like something 445 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 8: has to be wrong, you know what I mean, It 446 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 8: can't be true. 447 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 2: But it was. Yvonne Lane, the mother of David's child, 448 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: was dead and David was about to be the chief 449 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: suspect coming up on death and deceit in Alliance. 450 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 3: Found in a pool of her own blood because she 451 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 3: was murdered. 452 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 7: And I I mean, you could have just knocked. 453 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 8: Me over right now. 454 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 4: They tell me it's pretty body scene in there, so 455 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 4: gloves envoys on this one, but that, I mean, there's 456 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 4: just a massive amount of blood around her face. 457 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 6: Shock and awe. 458 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,959 Speaker 8: It's like as if it's not even real, like something 459 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 8: has to be wrong. 460 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 10: And then one. 461 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 2: Day I just lost everything and I didn't care about 462 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: life no more, and David knew about it, need took 463 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 2: advantage of me death and deceit. In Alliance is produced 464 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: and reported by me Maggie Freeling, with editorial consulting from 465 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: Amber Hunt. Aaron Case is our legal researcher. Our executive 466 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 2: producer is Steve Fishman. Our engineer and production coordinator is 467 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 2: Austin Smith. Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer.