1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Law. The legal issues surrounding Michael 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Flynn are getting stickier, and not just because of allegations 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: that President Trump urged James Coomat and an FBI investigation 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: involving Flynn. This week, McClatchy reported that as a member 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: of Trump's transition team, Flynn intervened stop a military plan 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: opposed by Turkey after he had been paid more than 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: a half a million dollars to represent the country, and 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: the New York Times reporter that Trump made named Flynn 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: his National security advisor, even after Flynn told the transition 10 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: team he was under federal investigation for his Turkish ties. 11 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: All that is separate from the reason Flynn Loft lost 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: his job in February after revelations that he had misled 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: officials about his contacts with a Russian diplomat. It's a 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: lot to unravel, and here with us to help us 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: do it are Andrew Kent, he's a professor at Fordham 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: University Law School. And Lewis Michael Siban, the professor at 17 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: Georgetown University Law School. Thank you both for joining us. 18 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: Um Andrew Kent, I mean start with you, and let's 19 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: if we can try to take these as best we 20 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: can one by one. What do you see as the 21 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: biggest legal issue that Michael Flynn is facing right now? 22 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: Ye know, if he continues to be his failure to 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: register as an agent of the Turkish government something which 24 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: it seems like is being investigated. Um. You know, the 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: willful failure to register is a federal crime. It's not 26 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: often prosecuted as such. Um you know, often involved you know, 27 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: lobbying and business dealings and other things. You know, when 28 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: it's involving somebody who became the National Security Advisor of 29 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: the United States, you know, it's natural that prosecutors would 30 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: take that more seriously. So I think that's probably the 31 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: number one concerned that he that he should have, that 32 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: he was acting on behalf of the government of Turkey 33 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: and receiving payments for that while failing to disclose that 34 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: as federal law requires. Mike in that same context, when 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: he was National Security Advisor, des ant u S government 36 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: policy on national security in the War on Terror was 37 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: actually bought for half a million dollars in payments from 38 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: Turkey if you look at it that way, because he 39 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: stopped those attacks until after he left. So is that 40 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: bribery that could land Flynn in prison or even treason. Well, Um, 41 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: first of all, I should say I'm not an expert 42 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: on the the federal bribery statutes, but it certainly is 43 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: a serious matter. If he was um receiving funds from 44 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: Turkey while UM giving advice about military actions that we 45 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: would take the Turkey was supposed to UM. There's another 46 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: question also that I don't think you mentioned it again. 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: I'm not sure of the facts, but if um, uh 48 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: the FBI or other UM government agents talked to him 49 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: about the contacts he had with the Russian ambassador, and 50 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: if he misrepresented those contacts as he apparently did UM 51 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: to the Vice president, than that is also a federal crime. 52 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: Andrew Um, we've been talking a little bit about Turkey, 53 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: We've been talking a little bit about Russia. UM. With 54 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: the appointment of Robert Mueller as a special counsel to 55 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: look into specifically involvement with the Trump campaign and Russia, 56 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: is uh everything that that has to do with Michael 57 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: Flynn now within Mueller's bailiwick, or just the part that 58 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: has to deal with the things that that that Mike 59 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: Sidman was talking about regarding his contacts with Russia. So 60 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: that's a good question, and it's quite an important one. 61 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: Uh Rod Rodenson and de Decrity, Attorney General who's acting 62 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: in place of just Actis has accused, wrote a letter 63 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: setting out the scope of what Robert Mueller can investigate. 64 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: And the main thing he said is that Mueller is 65 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: authorized to conduct the investigation that was confirmed by James 66 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: Comy when he was FBI director testifying before the House 67 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: Intelligence Committee in March, and they're what Comey said essentially 68 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: was that he was conducting a counterintelligence investigation into the 69 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: Russian government efforts to influence the election, UH and any 70 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: associated crimes. So you know, on its states that would 71 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: not seem to cover uh, you know, matters between for example, UH, 72 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: Michael Flynn and UH in Turkey, which at least at 73 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: this time, seemed to be separate from, uh, you know, 74 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: from from the Russian matter. So so Mike in about 75 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: thirty seconds. People keep saying that it may not be 76 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: what he was tasked with, but because he's who he is, 77 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: no one's going to stop him from going any further. 78 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: Do you buy that? I do. The First of all, 79 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: the the mandate includes associated crimes, but it also allows 80 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: UM the special Counsel to to go to the UH 81 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: to Rosenstein and asked to expand this mandate. And I 82 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: think Rosenstein would have a very hard time turning him down. 83 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: That is actually how the Lewinsky matter ended up being 84 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 1: UM part of the Star investigation. That was a request 85 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: to expand it, which was granted. You're listening to Bloomberg Law. 86 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: At a news conference Thursday, Donald Trump addressed the subject 87 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: of my Michael Flynn, but only very briefly. Did you 88 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: at any time urge former FBI Director James Comey in 89 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: any way, shape or form to close or to back 90 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: down the investigation into Michael Flynn? And also, as you 91 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: look at no next question. Our guests to talk about 92 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: the legal issues surrounding Michael Flynn are Lewis Michael Sideman 93 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: of Georgetown University Law School, and Andrew Kent, a professor 94 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: at Fordham Law School. UM, Mike, let me ask you 95 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: the same question I started by asking Andrew, which is, 96 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, all the issues surrounding Michael Flynn, what do 97 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: you think is the most serious one facing him? Is 98 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: it something we've already touched on, or or is there 99 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: something we haven't even gotten to yet. Well, actually, I 100 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: think the most serious question about Michael Flynn, which you 101 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: haven't gotten to, is not what the government is going 102 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: to do to him, but what he is going to do. UM. 103 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: The way these investigations typically work is you put pressure 104 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: on lower level people and then they have a motive 105 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: to implicate people higher up. And I think we don't 106 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: know all the facts, but there's reason to think that 107 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: General Flynn is faced with pretty serious spread of criminal liability. 108 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: He's already indicated publicly that he has a story to tell, 109 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: and UH, Special Council Moeller may very well be interested 110 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,119 Speaker 1: in that story. In that regard, UH, there are press 111 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: reports that the President has continued to talk to Flynn 112 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: and to UM voice support for him. He is on 113 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: very very dangerous territory when he does that, UM, because 114 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: that in itself, UH might end depending on what he 115 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: says and what Flynn is doing, that in itself might 116 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: end up being UM an obstruction of justice. Mike, When 117 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: you say higher up, is there anybody who that could 118 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: be other than Donald Trump? I guess perhaps the Vice president, 119 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: but he's he's already as an inform national security advisor, 120 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: He's already a pretty pretty big fish isn't he he is? 121 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: But um, and we you know again here we just 122 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: don't know the fact. There have been some press reports 123 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: indicating that Vice President Pence may have known more about 124 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: all this than he is revealed publicly. So far um um, 125 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: but certainly um. Depending on what Flynn knows and on 126 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: what actually happened, um, one could imagine that that the 127 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: President is concerned as well. Andrew. Let's go into that 128 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: a little bit. The New York Times is reporting that 129 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: Flynn told President Trump's transition team's chief lawyer who's now 130 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: the White House Council, weeks before the inauguration that he 131 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: was under federal investigation for secretly working as a paid 132 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: lobbyist for Turkey during the campaign. And then it took 133 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: eighteen days between Assistant Attorney General Sallyates warning that Flynn 134 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: might be subject to Russian blackmail and Ince forced Flynn's 135 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: force resignation. What's the possible blowback on the White House? Well, 136 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: I think we're seeing it already. I mean, it displays 137 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: extraordinarily bad judgment, um by the White House Counsel not 138 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: to throw up, you know, at an enormous fuss about 139 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: allowing Flynn to be hired in the first place. He's 140 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: under federal criminal investigation, and really, you know, just terrible 141 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: judgment by the president to delay doing anything about it 142 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: after he's been told by the Attorney general, the acting 143 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: Attorney general, you know what you said, that that Flynn 144 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: is open to you know, to Russian pressure or blackmail. Um, 145 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, legally, UM, I I don't. I don't necessarily 146 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: see uh, you know, any federal crimes here. I think 147 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: it's just uh, you know, it's just it's political damage. Uh, 148 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: just showing a level of of recklessness, willing to tolerate risks, 149 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: willing to tolerate Um, your very very questionable and and 150 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: p possibly a legal activity by Michael Lynn and still 151 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: hire him for such a sensitive position. You know, it's 152 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: really quite shocking. But there it might not be legal 153 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: fallout for President Trump. As a result of this specific issue, Mike, 154 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: there has been some mixed signals about how Michael Flynn 155 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: is dealing with lawmakers looking into this. Early on, uh, 156 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: he said publicly that he wanted immunity in exchange for testimony, 157 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: I guess through his lawyers, And then this week there 158 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: was a little kind of whiplash about whether he was 159 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: complying with Senate subpoenas. What do you make of all that? 160 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: What does it seem like Michael Flynn's approach towards Congresses 161 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: and all this, Well, no UH competent lawyer would allow 162 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: him to testify before Congress without a grant of immunity. 163 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 1: But Congress is not about to grant immunity to him 164 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: because that would interfere with the UH federal investigation. Certainly, 165 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: if I were a lawyer for Michael Flynn, and again 166 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: it depends on facts that we don't know. But if, if, 167 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,599 Speaker 1: if there is a serious riff of liability, of criminal liability, 168 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: one would want to try to strike some kind of deal. 169 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: And what kind of deal he could strike would depend 170 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: on UM, on what he knows. UM. Just one other 171 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: point about the president's criminal liability. So I agree that 172 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: UM nothing about about the delay and dismissing General Flynn 173 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: raises a criminal question. But if the president is worried 174 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: ultimately about impeachment, UM, that is a Most experts don't 175 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: think that a criminal violation is necessary for that. And 176 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: it's it's entirely possible that General Flynn knows things that 177 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: might increase the chances of the president being impeached even 178 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: if they're not um evidence of criminal wrongdoing. I want 179 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: to thank our guests. That was Lewis Michael Seidman and professor, 180 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: Georgetown Universe c Law School, and Andrew Kent, professor at 181 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: Fordham University Law School, helping us make some sense out 182 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: of the many issues surrounding Michael Flynn, his contacts with Turkey, 183 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: with Russia, UH, with folks in the Trump administration, and 184 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: how that might play forward both in Congress and UH 185 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: with Special counselor Special Counsel Mueller coming up on Bloomberg law, 186 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about who's going to get 187 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: the nod for FBI director. Reports have former Democratic Vice 188 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: presidential nominee Joe Lieberman in the lead, but it turns 189 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: out some Democrats may not like that idea. Donald Trump 190 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: UH just said he's not going to do it before 191 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: he leaves leaves the country